It was so bad that a neighbor of mine walked from Holcomb Bridge Road to where I could pick him up (13 miles.) So yeah, it was as bad or worse than anywhere else.
In fact, I got onto Crabapple and 92 by driving from the 575/92 on backroads that had been cordoned off (I have new found respect for lakes located at the bottom of hills) and I was about a mile west of him on 92. He caught up to me walking about 20 minutes later. Cars were covering about 50 yards every 15 minutes - all because of the downslope/upslope issues.
Simple. Drive the dumper down the median, or on the other side of the road until you get to a hill (either side of it), then get into traffic there, salt the downslope in a lane, salt the up slope in that lane. Rinse/Repeat. How do you think the cops got around?
I'm sure there are certain roads where traffic was snarled in both directions, but that salting would just take longer.
I'm sure Johnson Ferry was a nightmare (I used to work where 400 and 285 met so I cut down Johnson Ferry/Riverside all the time unfortunately) but the major thoroughfares/highways/freeways could have easily been taken care with some initiative. They managed it on 400 northbound and you know what a nightmare that road is in good weather;).
? I didn't say it wasn't iced over, I was pointing out that it could have been salted and sanded, that road treatment vehicles could have gotten there.
Lol, you've got that right. I was telling dozens of people that we were helping move their cars - "I know you want to stay in the middle of the dark 'pavement' but that's all ice - that white fluffy stuff just off to your right near the gutter? Your tires will work better in that..."
1000 plows would have done nothing. It was over (traffic wise) almost as soon as the first flakes of snow hit the ground. The hilly terrain combined with the below average temps for several days meant that roads, especially the various "feeder" surface roads, iced over almost immediately at least in the low-lying areas. Once a few cars failed to make it up some iced-over hill, that road was jammed. It took about 1 hour from the first few flakes before the traffic jam on surface streets backed up onto the interstates.
This was not my experience at all. Nobody needed a plow, but every hill needed salting/sanding. Both 75, 575, Hwy 92, and 285 could have been salted AFTER traffic starting crawling. In fact, this is what happened on 400 northbound. It was treated AFTER the bad traffic started.
Off ramps and on ramps could have been treated as well (this is where the majority of the issues were on 75 and 575) and the many dips and hills of 92 could have been treated as well (I personally was driving people up the median to get them home.) There was virtually no eastbound 92 traffic, very little southbound 575 traffic, and I've heard (but only heard) that the situation was the same on 75. It would have been simple (though slow) to get spreader trucks to the problem areas of those roads. If the police and emergency services vehicles could get to those hills to move cars help other cars get through, a spread certainly could.
The really annoying thing isn't that people were stuck crawling along for 3 or 4 hours, it was that they were stuck for 8-14 hours when it could have been mostly avoided.
...I remember both the county (Cherokee) and the City of Atlanta talking about this 3 years ago when another light snow storm shut everything down. There were lots of words and phrases like "we'll be prepared next time" and "this won't happen again", followed by a few weeks of local news articles about how millions of dollars had been spent on new road treatment equipment and trucks and how materials had been stockpiled so that they'd be "ready" the next time.
I left my office at 5:15PM, luckily in a 4WD jeep, and got home (12 miles away) at 8:40 - and I gave quite a few people rides to various destinations who had already abandoned their cars (this one kid had walked from Southern Polytechnic to almost Wade Green [this is a long ways] without gloves and a light coat.) Mostly I ferried parents who had to walk to the local middle school/high school to pick up their kids when the schools shut down the buses (which was smart.) I went back out and got onto the local parking lot usually known and highway 92 to pick up some neighbors who were trying to walk home and eventually got back around 1:45AM - the roads at this time still PACKED with cars.
It wasn't until 1:15PM when I was almost home with my last pickup that I FINALLY saw a snow plow truck driving around (like an a**hole by the way) and his plow was up and he wasn't dropping any sand or salt.
It was the traffic nightmare from hell - and not only did the local governments utterly fail to plan for this event that everyone was aware of for days, they didn't react worth a sh** either.
The good news from all of this is that I saw an amazing number of good Samaritans helping out anybody they possibly could. There were people on quads ferrying people around and having a good time doing it. There were clumps of people all walking from their abandoned cars laughing and making the best of it. On most of the side roads, people were coming out of their houses in neighborhoods to help people navigate the zombieland-like fields of abandoned cars. My favorite was this old couple on Hwy 92 that were simply walking through the traffic handing out bottles of water to people stuck there. They were walking hand in hand lugging the water behind them (it was very sweet.) I saw lots of frustration, but surprisingly no hostility towards other people.
Society punishes murderers because society strives to be better than murderers
Actually, society punishes murderers because society wishes to incentivize others to not commit murder. Secondarily, in some cases, it attempts to rehabilitate the murderer.
Killing murderers makes the state a murderer
I'm sorry, are you aware that killing someone doesn't mean you have committed murder, right? (Unless you're an unusually religious type in which case you've no busy trying to argue a rational point.)
the whole thing is completely messed up and incredibly barbaric
You're making the same mistake the other poster is. You're talking about the JUSTICE SYSTEM. I have already agreed with the other poster that the justice system, being human, is flawed and corrupt in many ways.
That is NOT the argument the person I replied to was making. It is NOT the point that I am addressing.
Let's find an alternative argument that perhaps will bring to light the differences between what I am stating and what you and nbauman are claiming.
Imagine that someone claims that the philosophy of Communism is uncivilized. I would argue that there's nothing inherently uncivilized about communism. Along comes nbauman and yourself and proceed to argue that I'm wrong because of I point out that I agree that I find the actual use of communism dubious and that the governments who have implemented communism have done a poor job of it, but that it doesn't affect my assertion that Communism isn't itself uncivilized.
Taken to the absurd, it's like claiming that Catholic seminary is uncivilized or makes you a monster because some priests sexually abuse children.
There is correlation between the two things, but they are different.
Just like whether the logic of "an eye for an eye" is uncivilized versus a the problems of the justice system.
My argument that arguing against 'an eye for an eye' based upon the presumption that killing someone is ALWAYS uncivilized and makes you a monster is a formula for prosecutorial misconduct?
So basically you've decided to hijack the sub-thread with your own personal agenda?
So we can't follow your rule...
Oh, so you actually don't get it... It's not a rule, it's a refutation of the argument that killing someone is inherently uncivilized because of the punishment. For the umpteenth time - my reply was entirely about the premise of an 'eye for an eye' being uncivilized because of the punishments themselves NOT because they couldn't be applied fairly.
Get it? The person I was replying to, before you jumped in with your anti-capital punishment exercise (which, ironically, I pretty much agree with - and I've already told you that), was stating that the nature of the punishments make them uncivilized.
It has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, it is a question of logic.
You still don't understand the difference between the two arguments you are treating as the same argument.
Let's try this again.
I am arguing about that there's nothing 'uncivilized' about capital punishment when someone has killed another person intentionally and maliciously.
You're arguing about the validity of the justice system and its ability (or inability) to convict the correct person for breaking a law or laws.
Again, they are two separate arguments that tend to be related.
Now, relating to your argument, I will certainly acknowledge that not only is human error a problem in the criminal justice system, but so is gender bias, racism, ethnocentrism, gentrification, and flat out corruption - so yes, indeed, I would agree that a capital case should have a VERY high bar indeed.
None of that takes away from the simple, and I would argue - logical, exterpation of someone responsible for an intentional murder.
You appear to be conflating two different arguments.
I am arguing that it isn't cruel and unusual punishment to kill someone for killing someone else. You are arguing, it would seem, against the death penalty due to the imperfect nature of the justice system.
They are two different things, although somewhat related.
Why does 'an eye for an eye' make you a monster in any sense? Or religous (unless you're using the bible as your reasoning behind its applicability...)?
I'm not a believer, except in logic, and it makes absolutely perfect logical sense to me to employ the 'eye for an eye' punishment approach.
You kill a pregnant woman intentionally, you die. F***, I'll do it myself. Not out of a sense of a blood thirsty desire for vengeance but because I no longer consider you a member of the human race and you should be destroyed the same way I would kill a mosquito.
Sadly, we don't don't live in the multiverse universe where that actually happened. Lucky bastards, that would have been one seriously enjoyable squirm session.
"...I'm sure you think that your actions were justified, but were you aware that many Americans think you're a pigeon fondling goat f*cker who Ben Franklin himself would probably have happily executed for treason?"
You know that movies aren't real, right? You seem to take them waaaaaay too seriously. I might just shove that phone up YOUR ass if you I catch you using it at the ballet...
You're an idiot. Confirming it shouldn't be confused with claiming that locals were wrong. It's simply a case of there being evidence that didn't come from a fisherman (and if African fisherman are anything like the fisherman in my neck of the woods, I wouldn't exactly take their word for it either...)
...coming from someone with a 2012 Mac Pro dual hex core.
I know it's been said before, but for God's sake people - paying Apple's RIDICULOUS prices for SSD, RAM, processors, is just insane.
I like OSX, and Apple's laptops are sometimes the best choice, but as a desktop or dev box? Last choice by a wide margin. I only had to buy one for very specific (unhappy about it) reason and hopefully will never need to buy one again.
Just an example of the obscene pricing from Apple, 24GB of RAM from Apple was going to cost me almost $2000 at the time. TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS. I bought better RAM, ending up with 26GB, with better performance and all the same trimmings (ECC et cetera), and it cost me $400.
I wonder if their SSDs are made out of solid gold as well... Oh, and good luck with upgrading your graphics card in a year.
Unfortunately you can have your home seized in a forfeiture if you default on paying back a judgement, so if the judgement is large enough, yes, you can lose your home.
Maybe all file sharers should incorporate into Subchapter S or LLCs;)...
BDI's defense income is insignificant for Google, but the acquisition is a great risk mitigation tactic for anyone wanting to get into robotics in a big way.
...the PS3 and the XBox 360 for the PS4 and XBox One respectively?
Lack of backwards compatibility in this day and age is pretty lame.
I'm aware of the testing issues involved, and frankly I think if you provided a backwards compatibility platform that was extensible by the game companies themselves (i.e. they could patch the game to run inside the VM without Micro$oft or $ony being involved) at least you'd make things better...
Surely you're joking... Senior people can't be expected to relocate? You better live in the Bay Area, San Jose, or Seattle with that attitude.
I'm not sure which economy you think we're living in, but I certainly would expect a lot of compromises on my part if I couldn't relocate to accept a job...
It has always been a rarity, even when the real estate market was bonkers on the plus side.
The only times I've ever heard of it being used for non-executives was when a company, such as SIEMENS, needed someone to relocate someplace they weren't interested in living (like some booming oil town in some crap hole someplace) but they company really needed.
As to your "point", your reply to my original post was asking me if I was willing to drop $100k on a senior QA guy to "cover relocation expense." That's not quite the same point as "no longer do non executives gets $100k relocation packages."
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Maybe farther north around 92 it wasn't so bad.
It was so bad that a neighbor of mine walked from Holcomb Bridge Road to where I could pick him up (13 miles.) So yeah, it was as bad or worse than anywhere else.
In fact, I got onto Crabapple and 92 by driving from the 575/92 on backroads that had been cordoned off (I have new found respect for lakes located at the bottom of hills) and I was about a mile west of him on 92. He caught up to me walking about 20 minutes later. Cars were covering about 50 yards every 15 minutes - all because of the downslope/upslope issues.
How?
Simple. Drive the dumper down the median, or on the other side of the road until you get to a hill (either side of it), then get into traffic there, salt the downslope in a lane, salt the up slope in that lane. Rinse/Repeat. How do you think the cops got around?
I'm sure there are certain roads where traffic was snarled in both directions, but that salting would just take longer.
I'm sure Johnson Ferry was a nightmare (I used to work where 400 and 285 met so I cut down Johnson Ferry/Riverside all the time unfortunately) but the major thoroughfares/highways/freeways could have easily been taken care with some initiative. They managed it on 400 northbound and you know what a nightmare that road is in good weather ;).
? I didn't say it wasn't iced over, I was pointing out that it could have been salted and sanded, that road treatment vehicles could have gotten there.
Lol, you've got that right. I was telling dozens of people that we were helping move their cars - "I know you want to stay in the middle of the dark 'pavement' but that's all ice - that white fluffy stuff just off to your right near the gutter? Your tires will work better in that..."
1000 plows would have done nothing. It was over (traffic wise) almost as soon as the first flakes of snow hit the ground. The hilly terrain combined with the below average temps for several days meant that roads, especially the various "feeder" surface roads, iced over almost immediately at least in the low-lying areas. Once a few cars failed to make it up some iced-over hill, that road was jammed. It took about 1 hour from the first few flakes before the traffic jam on surface streets backed up onto the interstates.
This was not my experience at all. Nobody needed a plow, but every hill needed salting/sanding. Both 75, 575, Hwy 92, and 285 could have been salted AFTER traffic starting crawling. In fact, this is what happened on 400 northbound. It was treated AFTER the bad traffic started.
Off ramps and on ramps could have been treated as well (this is where the majority of the issues were on 75 and 575) and the many dips and hills of 92 could have been treated as well (I personally was driving people up the median to get them home.) There was virtually no eastbound 92 traffic, very little southbound 575 traffic, and I've heard (but only heard) that the situation was the same on 75. It would have been simple (though slow) to get spreader trucks to the problem areas of those roads. If the police and emergency services vehicles could get to those hills to move cars help other cars get through, a spread certainly could.
The really annoying thing isn't that people were stuck crawling along for 3 or 4 hours, it was that they were stuck for 8-14 hours when it could have been mostly avoided.
...I remember both the county (Cherokee) and the City of Atlanta talking about this 3 years ago when another light snow storm shut everything down. There were lots of words and phrases like "we'll be prepared next time" and "this won't happen again", followed by a few weeks of local news articles about how millions of dollars had been spent on new road treatment equipment and trucks and how materials had been stockpiled so that they'd be "ready" the next time.
I left my office at 5:15PM, luckily in a 4WD jeep, and got home (12 miles away) at 8:40 - and I gave quite a few people rides to various destinations who had already abandoned their cars (this one kid had walked from Southern Polytechnic to almost Wade Green [this is a long ways] without gloves and a light coat.) Mostly I ferried parents who had to walk to the local middle school/high school to pick up their kids when the schools shut down the buses (which was smart.) I went back out and got onto the local parking lot usually known and highway 92 to pick up some neighbors who were trying to walk home and eventually got back around 1:45AM - the roads at this time still PACKED with cars.
It wasn't until 1:15PM when I was almost home with my last pickup that I FINALLY saw a snow plow truck driving around (like an a**hole by the way) and his plow was up and he wasn't dropping any sand or salt.
It was the traffic nightmare from hell - and not only did the local governments utterly fail to plan for this event that everyone was aware of for days, they didn't react worth a sh** either.
The good news from all of this is that I saw an amazing number of good Samaritans helping out anybody they possibly could. There were people on quads ferrying people around and having a good time doing it. There were clumps of people all walking from their abandoned cars laughing and making the best of it. On most of the side roads, people were coming out of their houses in neighborhoods to help people navigate the zombieland-like fields of abandoned cars. My favorite was this old couple on Hwy 92 that were simply walking through the traffic handing out bottles of water to people stuck there. They were walking hand in hand lugging the water behind them (it was very sweet.) I saw lots of frustration, but surprisingly no hostility towards other people.
then there will be no-one left alive
Could you explain what you mean by that?
Society punishes murderers because society strives to be better than murderers
Actually, society punishes murderers because society wishes to incentivize others to not commit murder. Secondarily, in some cases, it attempts to rehabilitate the murderer.
Killing murderers makes the state a murderer
I'm sorry, are you aware that killing someone doesn't mean you have committed murder, right? (Unless you're an unusually religious type in which case you've no busy trying to argue a rational point.)
the whole thing is completely messed up and incredibly barbaric
You're making the same mistake the other poster is. You're talking about the JUSTICE SYSTEM. I have already agreed with the other poster that the justice system, being human, is flawed and corrupt in many ways.
That is NOT the argument the person I replied to was making. It is NOT the point that I am addressing.
Let's find an alternative argument that perhaps will bring to light the differences between what I am stating and what you and nbauman are claiming.
Imagine that someone claims that the philosophy of Communism is uncivilized. I would argue that there's nothing inherently uncivilized about communism. Along comes nbauman and yourself and proceed to argue that I'm wrong because of I point out that I agree that I find the actual use of communism dubious and that the governments who have implemented communism have done a poor job of it, but that it doesn't affect my assertion that Communism isn't itself uncivilized.
Taken to the absurd, it's like claiming that Catholic seminary is uncivilized or makes you a monster because some priests sexually abuse children.
There is correlation between the two things, but they are different.
Just like whether the logic of "an eye for an eye" is uncivilized versus a the problems of the justice system.
Your argument is a formula for false convictions.
What? Are you suffering from mental illness?
My argument that arguing against 'an eye for an eye' based upon the presumption that killing someone is ALWAYS uncivilized and makes you a monster is a formula for prosecutorial misconduct?
LOL.
I'm trying to explain how they're related...
So basically you've decided to hijack the sub-thread with your own personal agenda?
So we can't follow your rule...
Oh, so you actually don't get it... It's not a rule, it's a refutation of the argument that killing someone is inherently uncivilized because of the punishment. For the umpteenth time - my reply was entirely about the premise of an 'eye for an eye' being uncivilized because of the punishments themselves NOT because they couldn't be applied fairly.
Get it? The person I was replying to, before you jumped in with your anti-capital punishment exercise (which, ironically, I pretty much agree with - and I've already told you that), was stating that the nature of the punishments make them uncivilized.
It has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, it is a question of logic.
Do you have any idea what I am talking about when I say that you are talking about a different argument than I am?
I don't think explaining it to you a third time how we are talking about two different things will make a difference.
You still don't understand the difference between the two arguments you are treating as the same argument.
Let's try this again.
I am arguing about that there's nothing 'uncivilized' about capital punishment when someone has killed another person intentionally and maliciously.
You're arguing about the validity of the justice system and its ability (or inability) to convict the correct person for breaking a law or laws.
Again, they are two separate arguments that tend to be related.
Now, relating to your argument, I will certainly acknowledge that not only is human error a problem in the criminal justice system, but so is gender bias, racism, ethnocentrism, gentrification, and flat out corruption - so yes, indeed, I would agree that a capital case should have a VERY high bar indeed.
None of that takes away from the simple, and I would argue - logical, exterpation of someone responsible for an intentional murder.
You appear to be conflating two different arguments.
I am arguing that it isn't cruel and unusual punishment to kill someone for killing someone else. You are arguing, it would seem, against the death penalty due to the imperfect nature of the justice system.
They are two different things, although somewhat related.
Why does 'an eye for an eye' make you a monster in any sense? Or religous (unless you're using the bible as your reasoning behind its applicability...)?
I'm not a believer, except in logic, and it makes absolutely perfect logical sense to me to employ the 'eye for an eye' punishment approach.
You kill a pregnant woman intentionally, you die. F***, I'll do it myself. Not out of a sense of a blood thirsty desire for vengeance but because I no longer consider you a member of the human race and you should be destroyed the same way I would kill a mosquito.
Sadly, we don't don't live in the multiverse universe where that actually happened. Lucky bastards, that would have been one seriously enjoyable squirm session.
"...I'm sure you think that your actions were justified, but were you aware that many Americans think you're a pigeon fondling goat f*cker who Ben Franklin himself would probably have happily executed for treason?"
You know that movies aren't real, right? You seem to take them waaaaaay too seriously. I might just shove that phone up YOUR ass if you I catch you using it at the ballet...
You're an idiot. Confirming it shouldn't be confused with claiming that locals were wrong. It's simply a case of there being evidence that didn't come from a fisherman (and if African fisherman are anything like the fisherman in my neck of the woods, I wouldn't exactly take their word for it either...)
No I'm not.
I'm clearly talking about when I bought the one sitting in my office.
...coming from someone with a 2012 Mac Pro dual hex core.
I know it's been said before, but for God's sake people - paying Apple's RIDICULOUS prices for SSD, RAM, processors, is just insane.
I like OSX, and Apple's laptops are sometimes the best choice, but as a desktop or dev box? Last choice by a wide margin. I only had to buy one for very specific (unhappy about it) reason and hopefully will never need to buy one again.
Just an example of the obscene pricing from Apple, 24GB of RAM from Apple was going to cost me almost $2000 at the time. TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS. I bought better RAM, ending up with 26GB, with better performance and all the same trimmings (ECC et cetera), and it cost me $400.
I wonder if their SSDs are made out of solid gold as well... Oh, and good luck with upgrading your graphics card in a year.
Unfortunately you can have your home seized in a forfeiture if you default on paying back a judgement, so if the judgement is large enough, yes, you can lose your home.
Maybe all file sharers should incorporate into Subchapter S or LLCs ;)...
BDI's defense income is insignificant for Google, but the acquisition is a great risk mitigation tactic for anyone wanting to get into robotics in a big way.
...the PS3 and the XBox 360 for the PS4 and XBox One respectively?
Lack of backwards compatibility in this day and age is pretty lame.
I'm aware of the testing issues involved, and frankly I think if you provided a backwards compatibility platform that was extensible by the game companies themselves (i.e. they could patch the game to run inside the VM without Micro$oft or $ony being involved) at least you'd make things better...
It's not difficult. Eat less, move more.
Perhaps you meant to say "It's not complicated." It is quite obviously difficult for many people.
Surely you're joking... Senior people can't be expected to relocate? You better live in the Bay Area, San Jose, or Seattle with that attitude.
I'm not sure which economy you think we're living in, but I certainly would expect a lot of compromises on my part if I couldn't relocate to accept a job...
It has always been a rarity, even when the real estate market was bonkers on the plus side.
The only times I've ever heard of it being used for non-executives was when a company, such as SIEMENS, needed someone to relocate someplace they weren't interested in living (like some booming oil town in some crap hole someplace) but they company really needed.
As to your "point", your reply to my original post was asking me if I was willing to drop $100k on a senior QA guy to "cover relocation expense." That's not quite the same point as "no longer do non executives gets $100k relocation packages."