Excellent! Operation "Suck All Fun out of Being a Kid" is coming along nicely. First we open sites that let kids sign up to potential lawsuits if they speak to anyone else- they might be talking to an online predator! Next, we make sure they can't talk about anything that might affect a commercial interest. Good to see phase two is proceeding according to schedule. Given time, if our operation is successful, all that these kids will be able to post is "Current Mood: Depressed". Which strangely enough, given the crap we're dumping on them, will probably be quite accurate.
Isn't it time to reign in the lawyers and the mollycoddlers?
I can say "I own X" as often as I like, but repeating it doesn't make it so.
I'm sure EK didn't say "I own X", nor repeat it, so I'm not sure what your point is? She just claimed that women (I would generalise to "people") can decide to do what they wish with their own body.
Yes, I do know exactly what you are getting at, but I'm curious how you bridge the gap between your statements.
Library Director Michele Reutty is under fire for refusing to give police library circulation records without a subpoena.... Reutty, the director for 17 years, now faces possible discipline by the library board. Members of the Borough Council have suggested she receive punishment ranging from a letter of reprimand in her personnel file to a 30-day unpaid suspension.
You can't be serious!
What if I said:
"Michele Reutty didn't send me a Christmas card last year. This made me very sad and I got angry at some children. This was a blatant disregard for my feelings and resulted in harm to children. I suggest we put a letter of reprimand in her file or suspend her for 30 days."
You'd think I was nuts, right? Why? Well, she is under no obligation whatsoever to send a Christmas card to me. Now, here she is, having been pressured to do something she was under no obligation to do... and frankly, likely in breach of privacy laws as well. She said no. Good on her!
If people want a law that forces anyone to obey arbitrary instructions of police officers (hint: this might be a baaaad thing), then petition to pass one. Until then, she not only did nothing wrong, but she did the right thing. If the police need the information for an investigation, they should get a warrant. Until then, she's done the right thing. Shame on the council members who have suggested disciplinary action.
You guys dont need to nitpick over my choice of words, I will make it perfectly clear what I meant. I meant that there is a strong hope in the guy's mind that she is going to have sex with him..... The boy was wrong to expect sex when they went back to his place.
Okay, thanks for clarifying, I was hoping this was what you meant, and I'm glad my interpretation was incorrect.
I hope my explanation showed that my interpretation was not unreasonable though, and given what was suggested, I hope my reaction was understandable. We are probably on a similar page regarding our views on the matter. Having said that, if my choice of words caused any offense, please accept my apologies.
I also think it's very unlikely for two fourteen year olds to both have the emotional maturity and judgment necessary for a safe and fulfilling sexual relationship. But I don't see why "A 14-year old sleeping with a 14-year old is extremely regrettable." Not without at least throwing in a few (admittedly very likely) caveats.
Care to share your thoughts?
Actually, I think the first part of your reply here phrases some of the issues I'd see with a 14-to-14 sexual encounter quite well. There are a number of consequences of sex (STDs, pregnancy) that may not be fully understood by the participants. You also have the situation where someone may, as they grow older, regret their decision.
Of course, there are going to be some emotionally and physically mature 14-year olds who are quite capable of making the decisions, and I acknowledge that this is a (big) flaw in my fairly general statement. No doubt the issue of emotionally immature individuals over the age of consent would come up too. Each country is going to set guidelines and a rough age, and if they don't match precisely there is going to be some argument over it. I think as the age gets older the percentage of people involved who are emotionally immature will decrease (a good thing) and the number of emotionally mature people who aren't legally allowed to get involved will increase (a bad thing). As for what the solution should be? I have no idea. Surely not some kind of test you take or something crazy? I'm not sure I could put together a decent proposal in the space of a single post anyway, and I'm hardly qualified to do so. The whole age of consent thing is mostly a subjective thing. One person may want it at 12, and another at 25, and a whole bunch of people in the ranges in between. Obviously, based on my response my magic number is somewhere above 14. Yours might be lower, higher, or you might find the idea of an "age of consent" to be offensive in and of itself. Anyway, my full views, and no doubt yours, would obviously take a long time to go through, and this is a tech site after all.
Thanks for being polite about the whole thing by the way. The last thing I expected when suggesting that growing kids might not be fully emotionally mature or prepared for sex at a young age was a series of flames suggesting at sexual inadequacy and fundamentalism. I have to admit I'm caught completely off guard. Next time I post about AIs.;)
My first time was at 14 and i dont regret it one bit.
Well, I'm glad I've provided an opportunity for you to brag about it.
I know a good number of people who lost theirs at a similar age (most, but not all males) and are just as happy about it. I know also know a few (less in total, more females) who regretted it.
As with most other most male teens I also wanted to screw practically anything in sight. Biology and all that. I won't justify your assumption and cheap shot with an answer though, it has no relevance at all.
Well, sorry for lumping you into that group. I tend to jump the gun sometimes, because when I was that age, I promised myself that I wouldn't underestimate kids, like adults were doing to me at the time.
Absolutely no offense taken whatsoever. Do not worry about it in the slightest. I agree with the point of view you are supporting.
Your mind seems made up, I shall not attempt to change it. You have misrepresented my reply; please reread what I said I found offensive. I have already stated my position. At this point the best I can offer is to reword my prior post to you to restate my position, but is there much point? I'd rather avoid a cyclical discussion. If you're trolling, IHBT, you win.
Sorry to reply to myself, but guys: I'm really tired and I've got to crash. I've made as many replies as I can manage. Apologies to those I didn't reply to, most of which I wish I could. If nothing else, at least a good discussion has come out of it. Take care everyone.
I'm hoping you chose your words poorly; please tell me that I've misread your actual intent.
Very well. You've misread my intent.:P
You are assuming many things about me, including that I am assuming the girl is innocent or not.
Also, I'm not sure what the "think of the children" thread has to do with my post specifically. I'd probably share your concerns about where that sort of thing leads. It sounds like you've got a cause in mind and are looking for an opponent; trust me, I'm the wrong person to argue with on this topic, as my thoughts on the topic are probably similar to yours. Anyway, offtopic, my apologies.
Yes, I did read the whole comment. You may assume what you wish regarding moderation, but your suggestion that anyone who responded positively to my comment was misinformed is offensive. I made it very clear to the original poster that I was hoping I had misunderstood the comment. I do not think their intent was bad and I have nothing against them.
Details on the differing definitions of "expectation on someone" can be found in my other replies through this thread.
I am not disagreeing at all that guys will wine and dine someone with the hope of getting a little sweet something in return. If you mean "expect" as in "really strongly hope" or "in order to have a chance at" or even "only because" context, then yes, I agree, what you are saying is quite true. If you are using it in the "obliged to" or "in exchange for" or "really should reciprocate by" context, then may I suggest a quick trip to an overly warm religious place. If you mean that context then your expectations are only going to be met by the worlds oldest profession.
The whole "nice guy" thing I won't touch with a fifty foot pole on Slashdot, and is quite offtopic anyway. We can have a scholarly debate on this issue over a few brewskies one day if you're over this way in Australia if you like.
Sorry, I wasn't terribly clear. I was agreeing with you.
I strongly doubt it MATTERS what the circumstances of the criminal case are unless he's got logs,emails,&c. proving both consent and lying about her age.
No doubt such things would help his case. Physical evidence would suggest the possibility of consent or lack thereof; I'd rather not elaborate.
And even then, he's already been branded.
Yes, as mentioned previously, very likely. And in the case his intent was actually good (ie. he didn't know, she looked much older, and she came onto him), a sad and terrible shame.
Now that's a lot of Slashdot posting for one evening. Time for me to go to bed soon methinks.;)
The fact that teens sneak out does not mean that the parents aren't lousy. They're still responsible,
Absolutely.
and they're still lousy for letting their teen sneak out in the first place.
They may not have had a choice in the matter. It's not too hard to say you're going to an event with X, and get X to go out the same time as you elsewhere. I've seen it done, and I was X a few times as a kid myself. Not saying it's right, just saying it happens.
Alternatively, you're completely right.
More to the point they are lousy parents for forcing their kid to feel like they have to lie and / or sneak out to do the things they want.
Or the parents are fine and the kid is lousy or foolish. Or alternatively, again, you're completely right.
I didn't sneak out, because I knew I could go to my parents and tell them exactly where I was going.
Not all kids are good kids like you appear to have been nor have good parents like yours seem.
No, but, as you are already aware, there's equal source (i.e. none) to assume it was rape or that the guy was the one lying about his age, which seems to be a fairly common position among the 'dotters active in these threads. I was just going the opposite extreme to make the point that it doesn't matter. His life is concluded, he might as well punch his ticket now.
The article specifically mentions his arrest and a police statement that he sexually assaulted her. Having said that, it isn't clear from the article what his position is (there's no indication at all) and whether he has been tried or charged, so it's very hard to tell what the circumstances in the case are.
Believe it or not, 14 year olds can think, life experience or not. At 14 I certainly knew that people lied and that its not a good idea to off with a stranger who's face I never even saw.
Don't fear, I'm absolutely not suggesting that. I've met my fair share of teenage kids who show a hell of a lot more wisdom than someone twice their age. I've had my rear legitimately handed to me enough times in online discussions by people who have turned out to be twelve to know not to underestimate the young ones. But a good number of kids that age do have a degree of naivety, and some girls that age may not have caught onto the sheer number of people who will say and do whatever they can to get into someones pants.
Finally, I guess she does now have a 'life experience' from which she can learn, doesn't she?
Actually, I'm based in Australia, so subtle language differences shouldn't be too far apart, since we mostly stole your language.;)
But good to know that you can spell "colour" correctly as well.;)
Oh btw, I didn't bring up the reference to argue that one or the other of us is right, just to show that my interpretation wasn't too unreasonable. So there is no need for either of us to bow to the others interpretation of the same words. I think we've presented two valid interpretations of the same phrase.
She lied about her age? He tried to break it off when he found out the truth and the whole "sexual assault" thing is typical teenage girl petty revenge?
These are some fairly big assumptions. They may or not be true. Do you have a source for them?
Lots of possibilities here besides the simple "the guy is a sick pedo." But no one will consider any.
I'd check the other replies in the thread. Some very big assumptions are being made by other posters without much in the way of backing. I'd say that other options are being considered.
The case will make it to court and he will be tried. As mentioned in another post in this thread, the article doesn't mention if it was consensual sex, buyers remorse, or if the guy forced himself onto her. Nor does it mention what age each of the participants thought the other was, represented themselves as, or what their intentions were.
In the case that the guy genuinely had no idea that she was underaged and it was entirely consensual, I do fear you're right that he'll be judged regardless.
Slashdot Mirror
Excellent! Operation "Suck All Fun out of Being a Kid" is coming along nicely. First we open sites that let kids sign up to potential lawsuits if they speak to anyone else- they might be talking to an online predator! Next, we make sure they can't talk about anything that might affect a commercial interest. Good to see phase two is proceeding according to schedule. Given time, if our operation is successful, all that these kids will be able to post is "Current Mood: Depressed". Which strangely enough, given the crap we're dumping on them, will probably be quite accurate.
Isn't it time to reign in the lawyers and the mollycoddlers?
Dude, are you available for hire? I'll even pitch in for the booze. ;)
Dude, why would you want to stick a pin in a kid?
;)
Spoken as someone who has never tried it. Geesh.
The box says YES!
I can say "I own X" as often as I like, but repeating it doesn't make it so.
I'm sure EK didn't say "I own X", nor repeat it, so I'm not sure what your point is? She just claimed that women (I would generalise to "people") can decide to do what they wish with their own body.
Yes, I do know exactly what you are getting at, but I'm curious how you bridge the gap between your statements.
From the article:
... Reutty, the director for 17 years, now faces possible discipline by the library board. Members of the Borough Council have suggested she receive punishment ranging from a letter of reprimand in her personnel file to a 30-day unpaid suspension.
Library Director Michele Reutty is under fire for refusing to give police library circulation records without a subpoena.
You can't be serious!
What if I said:
"Michele Reutty didn't send me a Christmas card last year. This made me very sad and I got angry at some children. This was a blatant disregard for my feelings and resulted in harm to children. I suggest we put a letter of reprimand in her file or suspend her for 30 days."
You'd think I was nuts, right? Why? Well, she is under no obligation whatsoever to send a Christmas card to me. Now, here she is, having been pressured to do something she was under no obligation to do... and frankly, likely in breach of privacy laws as well. She said no. Good on her!
If people want a law that forces anyone to obey arbitrary instructions of police officers (hint: this might be a baaaad thing), then petition to pass one. Until then, she not only did nothing wrong, but she did the right thing. If the police need the information for an investigation, they should get a warrant. Until then, she's done the right thing. Shame on the council members who have suggested disciplinary action.
while it would suck having to give up my girlfriends, at least I would still have my wife
;)
Yeah, I call my computers my "girlfriends" too. Nice to know I'm not the only one. What? Oh... er... never mind then. Carry on!
You guys dont need to nitpick over my choice of words, I will make it perfectly clear what I meant. I meant that there is a strong hope in the guy's mind that she is going to have sex with him. .... The boy was wrong to expect sex when they went back to his place.
Okay, thanks for clarifying, I was hoping this was what you meant, and I'm glad my interpretation was incorrect.
I hope my explanation showed that my interpretation was not unreasonable though, and given what was suggested, I hope my reaction was understandable. We are probably on a similar page regarding our views on the matter. Having said that, if my choice of words caused any offense, please accept my apologies.
I also think it's very unlikely for two fourteen year olds to both have the emotional maturity and judgment necessary for a safe and fulfilling sexual relationship. But I don't see why "A 14-year old sleeping with a 14-year old is extremely regrettable." Not without at least throwing in a few (admittedly very likely) caveats.
;)
Care to share your thoughts?
Actually, I think the first part of your reply here phrases some of the issues I'd see with a 14-to-14 sexual encounter quite well. There are a number of consequences of sex (STDs, pregnancy) that may not be fully understood by the participants. You also have the situation where someone may, as they grow older, regret their decision.
Of course, there are going to be some emotionally and physically mature 14-year olds who are quite capable of making the decisions, and I acknowledge that this is a (big) flaw in my fairly general statement. No doubt the issue of emotionally immature individuals over the age of consent would come up too. Each country is going to set guidelines and a rough age, and if they don't match precisely there is going to be some argument over it. I think as the age gets older the percentage of people involved who are emotionally immature will decrease (a good thing) and the number of emotionally mature people who aren't legally allowed to get involved will increase (a bad thing). As for what the solution should be? I have no idea. Surely not some kind of test you take or something crazy? I'm not sure I could put together a decent proposal in the space of a single post anyway, and I'm hardly qualified to do so. The whole age of consent thing is mostly a subjective thing. One person may want it at 12, and another at 25, and a whole bunch of people in the ranges in between. Obviously, based on my response my magic number is somewhere above 14. Yours might be lower, higher, or you might find the idea of an "age of consent" to be offensive in and of itself. Anyway, my full views, and no doubt yours, would obviously take a long time to go through, and this is a tech site after all.
Thanks for being polite about the whole thing by the way. The last thing I expected when suggesting that growing kids might not be fully emotionally mature or prepared for sex at a young age was a series of flames suggesting at sexual inadequacy and fundamentalism. I have to admit I'm caught completely off guard. Next time I post about AIs.
My first time was at 14 and i dont regret it one bit.
Well, I'm glad I've provided an opportunity for you to brag about it.
I know a good number of people who lost theirs at a similar age (most, but not all males) and are just as happy about it. I know also know a few (less in total, more females) who regretted it.
As with most other most male teens I also wanted to screw practically anything in sight. Biology and all that. I won't justify your assumption and cheap shot with an answer though, it has no relevance at all.
Well, sorry for lumping you into that group. I tend to jump the gun sometimes, because when I was that age, I promised myself that I wouldn't underestimate kids, like adults were doing to me at the time.
Absolutely no offense taken whatsoever. Do not worry about it in the slightest. I agree with the point of view you are supporting.
Your mind seems made up, I shall not attempt to change it. You have misrepresented my reply; please reread what I said I found offensive. I have already stated my position. At this point the best I can offer is to reword my prior post to you to restate my position, but is there much point? I'd rather avoid a cyclical discussion. If you're trolling, IHBT, you win.
I believe that's precisely what he meant by "certain things are expected of you,"
I agree, that was probably the intent.
Sorry to reply to myself, but guys: I'm really tired and I've got to crash. I've made as many replies as I can manage. Apologies to those I didn't reply to, most of which I wish I could. If nothing else, at least a good discussion has come out of it. Take care everyone.
Thankyou for your positive contribution.
I'm hoping you chose your words poorly; please tell me that I've misread your actual intent.
:P
Very well. You've misread my intent.
You are assuming many things about me, including that I am assuming the girl is innocent or not.
Also, I'm not sure what the "think of the children" thread has to do with my post specifically. I'd probably share your concerns about where that sort of thing leads. It sounds like you've got a cause in mind and are looking for an opponent; trust me, I'm the wrong person to argue with on this topic, as my thoughts on the topic are probably similar to yours. Anyway, offtopic, my apologies.
I'm a little confused by your last sentence.
Yes, I did read the whole comment. You may assume what you wish regarding moderation, but your suggestion that anyone who responded positively to my comment was misinformed is offensive. I made it very clear to the original poster that I was hoping I had misunderstood the comment. I do not think their intent was bad and I have nothing against them.
We disagree but I can understand your position.
Details on the differing definitions of "expectation on someone" can be found in my other replies through this thread.
I am not disagreeing at all that guys will wine and dine someone with the hope of getting a little sweet something in return. If you mean "expect" as in "really strongly hope" or "in order to have a chance at" or even "only because" context, then yes, I agree, what you are saying is quite true. If you are using it in the "obliged to" or "in exchange for" or "really should reciprocate by" context, then may I suggest a quick trip to an overly warm religious place. If you mean that context then your expectations are only going to be met by the worlds oldest profession.
The whole "nice guy" thing I won't touch with a fifty foot pole on Slashdot, and is quite offtopic anyway. We can have a scholarly debate on this issue over a few brewskies one day if you're over this way in Australia if you like.
That's my point.
;)
Sorry, I wasn't terribly clear. I was agreeing with you.
I strongly doubt it MATTERS what the circumstances of the criminal case are unless he's got logs,emails,&c. proving both consent and lying about her age.
No doubt such things would help his case. Physical evidence would suggest the possibility of consent or lack thereof; I'd rather not elaborate.
And even then, he's already been branded.
Yes, as mentioned previously, very likely. And in the case his intent was actually good (ie. he didn't know, she looked much older, and she came onto him), a sad and terrible shame.
Now that's a lot of Slashdot posting for one evening. Time for me to go to bed soon methinks.
The fact that teens sneak out does not mean that the parents aren't lousy. They're still responsible,
Absolutely.
and they're still lousy for letting their teen sneak out in the first place.
They may not have had a choice in the matter. It's not too hard to say you're going to an event with X, and get X to go out the same time as you elsewhere. I've seen it done, and I was X a few times as a kid myself. Not saying it's right, just saying it happens.
Alternatively, you're completely right.
More to the point they are lousy parents for forcing their kid to feel like they have to lie and / or sneak out to do the things they want.
Or the parents are fine and the kid is lousy or foolish. Or alternatively, again, you're completely right.
I didn't sneak out, because I knew I could go to my parents and tell them exactly where I was going.
Not all kids are good kids like you appear to have been nor have good parents like yours seem.
No, but, as you are already aware, there's equal source (i.e. none) to assume it was rape or that the guy was the one lying about his age, which seems to be a fairly common position among the 'dotters active in these threads. I was just going the opposite extreme to make the point that it doesn't matter. His life is concluded, he might as well punch his ticket now.
The article specifically mentions his arrest and a police statement that he sexually assaulted her. Having said that, it isn't clear from the article what his position is (there's no indication at all) and whether he has been tried or charged, so it's very hard to tell what the circumstances in the case are.
Believe it or not, 14 year olds can think, life experience or not. At 14 I certainly knew that people lied and that its not a good idea to off with a stranger who's face I never even saw.
Don't fear, I'm absolutely not suggesting that. I've met my fair share of teenage kids who show a hell of a lot more wisdom than someone twice their age. I've had my rear legitimately handed to me enough times in online discussions by people who have turned out to be twelve to know not to underestimate the young ones. But a good number of kids that age do have a degree of naivety, and some girls that age may not have caught onto the sheer number of people who will say and do whatever they can to get into someones pants.
Finally, I guess she does now have a 'life experience' from which she can learn, doesn't she?
Yes, and it's sad that she had to learn this way.
Actually, I'm based in Australia, so subtle language differences shouldn't be too far apart, since we mostly stole your language. ;)
;)
But good to know that you can spell "colour" correctly as well.
Oh btw, I didn't bring up the reference to argue that one or the other of us is right, just to show that my interpretation wasn't too unreasonable. So there is no need for either of us to bow to the others interpretation of the same words. I think we've presented two valid interpretations of the same phrase.
She lied about her age?
He tried to break it off when he found out the truth and the whole "sexual assault" thing is typical teenage girl petty revenge?
These are some fairly big assumptions. They may or not be true. Do you have a source for them?
Lots of possibilities here besides the simple "the guy is a sick pedo." But no one will consider any.
I'd check the other replies in the thread. Some very big assumptions are being made by other posters without much in the way of backing. I'd say that other options are being considered.
The case will make it to court and he will be tried. As mentioned in another post in this thread, the article doesn't mention if it was consensual sex, buyers remorse, or if the guy forced himself onto her. Nor does it mention what age each of the participants thought the other was, represented themselves as, or what their intentions were.
In the case that the guy genuinely had no idea that she was underaged and it was entirely consensual, I do fear you're right that he'll be judged regardless.