What your saying is that just because they produce drugs, they're entitled to set any price they want, because they have to do research to create patented drugs, and anybody who tries to get a better price is immoral?
No wonder the idiot got re-elected; he's in good company.
Re:Mixed feeling
on
HIV Vaccine
·
· Score: 2, Informative
What the bloody hell is it with you yanks(Only yanks would argue because they have the highest prices in the world!) and your disdain for collective bargining agreements?
Seriously. These aren't sports cars, they're drugs many people need to continue living. Drugs which don't fall under this category, such as Prozac and Viagra, cost more in Canada than they do in the US.
Look at this page. When allergy medication and breast cancer treatments are being sold for 1/3 the price here than in the states, and the drug companies are still making a profit(they wouldn't sell here otherwise), you're being ripped off in the worst way -- with a gun to your head. Pay or die.
This page is very interesting as well, because it outlines the criteria the PMPRB uses to set the price of patented prescripted drugs. Breakthrough drug prices are limited to the median of the prices for the same drugs charged in other specified industrialized countries that are set out in the Patented Medicines Regulations (France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland, U.K. and the U.S.). This is hardly the Wal-mart model of bleeding everyone else dry.
Frankly, this is a stupid discussion. You guys seem to have forgotten that capitalism is a two way street -- Just like labour unions formed because companies abused individually powerless workers during the industrial revolution, collective bargining of some sort has to be utilized (ESPECIALLY since these companies are the only supplier because of patents and our government generally keeps it's fingers out of that pie, sending aids medicine to africa excepted) to keep drug companies from charging whatever they want for things people need to stay alive. You guys can keep getting extorted if you want, but don't argue that we're wrong for wanting affordable drugs and are willing to use force to achieve those ends.
Collectively bargin with drug companies, or let the drug companies charge whatever they want. Either put a gun up to their head, or let them have the gun.
On-line pharmacies' 15 Billion dollars in sales this year tells me that there are a lot of americans who wouldn't mind having some ammunition against the drug companies for once.
As for the patent breaking, it's not being used as leverage(we had cheaper drugs long before that piece of legislation was introduced), it's specificlally to send drugs to developing nations which can't afford what drug companies have to offer. You could argue that they don't deserve medicine if they can't afford it, which is a completely legitimate arguement, just like me arguing that I HAD to shoot that hobo in the face, because he was just going to apply for welfare or leech off of productive members of society by begging anyway!
Re:Welcome to capitalism
on
HIV Vaccine
·
· Score: 1
Here's a document containing all the information you'd like about the maker of prozac. As you can see, the margins are actually higher than 18% for that company, they're closer to 20%(2 billion dollars profit on 10 billion dollars net sales). Considering the markets in the states, I doubt it's a mistake to think that other leading drug companies are comperable.
Re:Welcome to capitalism
on
HIV Vaccine
·
· Score: 1
Actually, facts are few and far between when it's Americans talking about affordable drugs. Their market is a wierd fantasy land. My other posts in this story confirm that most thoughts on R&D costs are wrong, and others have confirmed that it's not subsidies keeping drug prices outside the US from being as unreasonable as they are there.
Re:Mixed feeling
on
HIV Vaccine
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Actually, I did some research here, and it turns out that both marketing and production dwarf R&D, at least for this company, the maker of Prozac.
(ooh! Between the statue of Liberty and the revolutionary war against the british, that was a truly low blow!)
Re:Mixed feeling
on
HIV Vaccine
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
Eli Lilly and Co., the maker of Prozac, the most proscribed anti-depression drug on the market, has earned 10,213.6 Million USD in the past 9 months. The cost of those sales was 2,358.2 Million USD. Research and Development cost 1,975.6 Million USD.
Marketing and adminstrative cost 3,186.0 Million USD.
In other words, you're absolutely right. Other companies would probably show the same result.
What the hell are you talking about? We pay less for drugs because our national health plan allows the government to bargin for lower prices. The reason prices in the USA are higher than anywhere else in the world is that there's a law specifically banning this practice there.
Are you saying that living in a city means you have no right to criticize environmental destruction?
I'm saying that I have no use for people who know dickall about the thing they're protesting about coming to a place they know nothing about and protesting because they feel guilty there aren't any trees where they live.
It's just like the people who protest the slaughter of baby seals. Is there a solid environmental reason they're behind it, or do they think that seals are cute? If they're doing it because baby seals are cute, or because protesting is trendy, they're far worse than useless, because they lessen the importance of people talking about threats....the only reason that the government listens to them at all [...] they have significant political support from the environmentally aware public...
Who makes the people aware? Is it the protestors, who give environmentalism a bad name, or is it the journalists and scientists who actually inform the public about real threats?
At what point is the health risk posed by the lead after it reaches half-life more than the material itself?:)
That would be funny, to see everyone freaking out because terrorists set off a "dirty bomb", then everyone affected being hurt more by lead poisoning.:)
Perhaps a straw man, but all things considered, not an unrealistic one.
When they protest at research reactors dedicated to making nuclear power safer, or when they show up(from their decimated city environment) to twelve thousand kilometers of forest to protest trees being cut down, you'll have to forgive this kid born and raised in the bush(you know, trees and stuff?) from giving them much credence.
There are good environmentalists who are actually making real changes by working with government and industry, and there are people who join protests because it makes them feel better about living on seven kilometers of concrete. The former have made the air I breathe personally outside a paper mill breathable. The latter have done nothing of import, as far as I'm concerned, and take credit for the formers successes.
If your countrymen are ever responsible for the worst institutionalized mass slaughter of innocents in the history of the world, I'll be sure to get back to you on that.
That's a new one; because god doesn't exist, nothing exists, and all values are baseless and nothing can be known or communicated?
I think you should go back to the drawing board on that one. Regardless of the existance of the invisible force without force which has no apparant effect on the world, I'm still here, and so are you.
As for values, why the hell can't there be values? As far as I'm concerned, a person can only actually hold faith in their values if they are theirs. That's why most religious tomes are almost completely ignored(you know, the parts that say that women are worth one quarter as much as men, that the earth is flat, that the sky is merely a canopy over gods grand experiment, that diseases are caused by demon infestations and impure thoughts?), and religious folks who are worth their salt follow their own path anyway.
In fact, you know what happened to the last group who followed their religion closely?
We bombed the shit out of them in the name of humanitarianism. So don't give me any bullshit about there being no values without God. He's a figment of an ancient hebrews imagination(judaism), built upon first by someone who felt that the laws were too strict(Christianity), and then by another who took those laws and did their own stuff to them (islam).
It's not the discussion, it's the reality of the world. Every time I look at a woman all these absurd defense mechanisms go into action so I don't accidently see something other than another man, because I've been indoctrinated from birth about how horrible it is to treat women as anything other than men.
If that's not fractured, I don't know what is.
And one thing leads to another. If there are no women in the field, then men are going to be incredulous that there are women in the field. We're very transparant that way.
I pay a ridiculous amount for my cable TV every month. What's the difference between setting my VCR to timeshift a TV show, and letting someone else do the timeshifting for me?
If Music downloading is outright theft, TV show downloading is outright not. I've paid to watch that show, whether they like it or not.
A search engine will tell you that sexual harrassment is a big problem for women online.
How about in off-line groups, like engineering school? Were they pre-emptively sexually harassed somehow so they didn't sign up for those classes? I suppose all the women who joined non-engineering programs were harassed into it?
"TRUST ME. THEY'RE MORE THAN WELCOME.:P"
I think the attitude speaks for itself.
You have no idea who I am. You have no idea how I think. Don't dare to think that you can throw my thoughts and feelings into the bit bucket just because they fall into your worldview.
My fractured psyche is the direct result of horrible people like you, the people who would rather go and talk about all the injustice in the world and beat down anyone who disagrees than just admit that there are differences which should be celebrated while still having equal rights. The cognative dissonance between the world as it is and the world as it seems thanks to those who don't want equal rights as much as for men and women to cease to exist, to create one species-wide unisex with no different behaviours, thought patterns, or social interactions.
Yes, this idea of the unisex, where a beautiful woman isn't really so because it's not PC for the facts to be so, or for a man and a woman to fall in love(or lust, or even THINK about each other that way, ever), is very convenient for the massive corporations that think of us as resource units rather than people. Having lived the orwellian nightmare of doublethink, however, and continuing to live in it because of a lifetime of indoctrination, I can see now that it's not worth it. It's not worth the anguish. Life is more wonderful than that. Women are more than just working machines not to be differentiated from anyone else for any reason, just as they are more than breeding machines, to be differentiated and oppressed.
God forgive me for being human, but I can't and won't take it anymore; Women are absolutely welcome in the engineering and programming fields. It's more fun than marketting and cheaper than art studies, and their wonderful differences could change the field for the better in many ways.
If you have a problem with that, it's a problem with you, not a problem with me. God knows I've paid my PC dues.
Slashdot Mirror
What your saying is that just because they produce drugs, they're entitled to set any price they want, because they have to do research to create patented drugs, and anybody who tries to get a better price is immoral?
No wonder the idiot got re-elected; he's in good company.
What the bloody hell is it with you yanks(Only yanks would argue because they have the highest prices in the world!) and your disdain for collective bargining agreements?
Seriously. These aren't sports cars, they're drugs many people need to continue living. Drugs which don't fall under this category, such as Prozac and Viagra, cost more in Canada than they do in the US.
Look at this page. When allergy medication and breast cancer treatments are being sold for 1/3 the price here than in the states, and the drug companies are still making a profit(they wouldn't sell here otherwise), you're being ripped off in the worst way -- with a gun to your head. Pay or die.
This page is very interesting as well, because it outlines the criteria the PMPRB uses to set the price of patented prescripted drugs. Breakthrough drug prices are limited to the median of the prices for the same drugs charged in other specified industrialized countries that are set out in the Patented Medicines Regulations (France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland, U.K. and the U.S.). This is hardly the Wal-mart model of bleeding everyone else dry.
Frankly, this is a stupid discussion. You guys seem to have forgotten that capitalism is a two way street -- Just like labour unions formed because companies abused individually powerless workers during the industrial revolution, collective bargining of some sort has to be utilized (ESPECIALLY since these companies are the only supplier because of patents and our government generally keeps it's fingers out of that pie, sending aids medicine to africa excepted) to keep drug companies from charging whatever they want for things people need to stay alive. You guys can keep getting extorted if you want, but don't argue that we're wrong for wanting affordable drugs and are willing to use force to achieve those ends.
Let's look at the options here.
Collectively bargin with drug companies, or let the drug companies charge whatever they want. Either put a gun up to their head, or let them have the gun.
On-line pharmacies' 15 Billion dollars in sales this year tells me that there are a lot of americans who wouldn't mind having some ammunition against the drug companies for once.
As for the patent breaking, it's not being used as leverage(we had cheaper drugs long before that piece of legislation was introduced), it's specificlally to send drugs to developing nations which can't afford what drug companies have to offer. You could argue that they don't deserve medicine if they can't afford it, which is a completely legitimate arguement, just like me arguing that I HAD to shoot that hobo in the face, because he was just going to apply for welfare or leech off of productive members of society by begging anyway!
source
Here's a document containing all the information you'd like about the maker of prozac. As you can see, the margins are actually higher than 18% for that company, they're closer to 20%(2 billion dollars profit on 10 billion dollars net sales). Considering the markets in the states, I doubt it's a mistake to think that other leading drug companies are comperable.
Actually, facts are few and far between when it's Americans talking about affordable drugs. Their market is a wierd fantasy land. My other posts in this story confirm that most thoughts on R&D costs are wrong, and others have confirmed that it's not subsidies keeping drug prices outside the US from being as unreasonable as they are there.
Actually, I did some research here, and it turns out that both marketing and production dwarf R&D, at least for this company, the maker of Prozac.
Yeah. Just look at the US!
(ooh! Between the statue of Liberty and the revolutionary war against the british, that was a truly low blow!)
Eli Lilly and Co., the maker of Prozac, the most proscribed anti-depression drug on the market, has earned 10,213.6 Million USD in the past 9 months. The cost of those sales was 2,358.2 Million USD. Research and Development cost 1,975.6 Million USD.
Marketing and adminstrative cost 3,186.0 Million USD.
In other words, you're absolutely right. Other companies would probably show the same result.
Source
What the hell are you talking about? We pay less for drugs because our national health plan allows the government to bargin for lower prices. The reason prices in the USA are higher than anywhere else in the world is that there's a law specifically banning this practice there.
m374-1r0ny pwns j00.
Yes, because slashdot editors don't have ENOUGH complaints about unprofessionalism as it is!
"extra, extra, rtfm newb! gtg lol kthxbye!"
Are you saying that living in a city means you have no right to criticize environmental destruction?
...the only reason that the government listens to them at all [...] they have significant political support from the environmentally aware public...
I'm saying that I have no use for people who know dickall about the thing they're protesting about coming to a place they know nothing about and protesting because they feel guilty there aren't any trees where they live.
It's just like the people who protest the slaughter of baby seals. Is there a solid environmental reason they're behind it, or do they think that seals are cute? If they're doing it because baby seals are cute, or because protesting is trendy, they're far worse than useless, because they lessen the importance of people talking about threats.
Who makes the people aware? Is it the protestors, who give environmentalism a bad name, or is it the journalists and scientists who actually inform the public about real threats?
At what point is the health risk posed by the lead after it reaches half-life more than the material itself? :)
:)
That would be funny, to see everyone freaking out because terrorists set off a "dirty bomb", then everyone affected being hurt more by lead poisoning.
Perhaps a straw man, but all things considered, not an unrealistic one.
When they protest at research reactors dedicated to making nuclear power safer, or when they show up(from their decimated city environment) to twelve thousand kilometers of forest to protest trees being cut down, you'll have to forgive this kid born and raised in the bush(you know, trees and stuff?) from giving them much credence.
There are good environmentalists who are actually making real changes by working with government and industry, and there are people who join protests because it makes them feel better about living on seven kilometers of concrete. The former have made the air I breathe personally outside a paper mill breathable. The latter have done nothing of import, as far as I'm concerned, and take credit for the formers successes.
If your countrymen are ever responsible for the worst institutionalized mass slaughter of innocents in the history of the world, I'll be sure to get back to you on that.
Hebrew: "Hey moses, I can't remember one of the commandments. Where did those stone plates go?"
:D
Moses: "Uh....they....ascended back to heaven to be with god."
Hebrew: "Wooooooah"
How would it be different than blowing up an oil pipeline?
Well for starters, the nuclear reactor is run by a leading edge PLC which could detect an event like that and shut down the reactor.
Nuclear Reactors have come a long way since chernobyl.
Just what we need -- no, there'd be no practical problems, except for the greenpeace protesters on your lawn going "save the heat!" or somesuch!
That's a new one; because god doesn't exist, nothing exists, and all values are baseless and nothing can be known or communicated?
I think you should go back to the drawing board on that one. Regardless of the existance of the invisible force without force which has no apparant effect on the world, I'm still here, and so are you.
As for values, why the hell can't there be values? As far as I'm concerned, a person can only actually hold faith in their values if they are theirs. That's why most religious tomes are almost completely ignored(you know, the parts that say that women are worth one quarter as much as men, that the earth is flat, that the sky is merely a canopy over gods grand experiment, that diseases are caused by demon infestations and impure thoughts?), and religious folks who are worth their salt follow their own path anyway.
In fact, you know what happened to the last group who followed their religion closely?
We bombed the shit out of them in the name of humanitarianism. So don't give me any bullshit about there being no values without God. He's a figment of an ancient hebrews imagination(judaism), built upon first by someone who felt that the laws were too strict(Christianity), and then by another who took those laws and did their own stuff to them (islam).
Ever consider declaring yourself a US state?
It's not the discussion, it's the reality of the world. Every time I look at a woman all these absurd defense mechanisms go into action so I don't accidently see something other than another man, because I've been indoctrinated from birth about how horrible it is to treat women as anything other than men.
If that's not fractured, I don't know what is.
And one thing leads to another. If there are no women in the field, then men are going to be incredulous that there are women in the field. We're very transparant that way.
The world is a big place, filled with over 6 billion humans.
Perhaps things are different where you are.
I pay a ridiculous amount for my cable TV every month. What's the difference between setting my VCR to timeshift a TV show, and letting someone else do the timeshifting for me?
If Music downloading is outright theft, TV show downloading is outright not. I've paid to watch that show, whether they like it or not.
A search engine will tell you that sexual harrassment is a big problem for women online.
:P"
How about in off-line groups, like engineering school? Were they pre-emptively sexually harassed somehow so they didn't sign up for those classes? I suppose all the women who joined non-engineering programs were harassed into it?
"TRUST ME. THEY'RE MORE THAN WELCOME.
I think the attitude speaks for itself.
You have no idea who I am. You have no idea how I think. Don't dare to think that you can throw my thoughts and feelings into the bit bucket just because they fall into your worldview.
My fractured psyche is the direct result of horrible people like you, the people who would rather go and talk about all the injustice in the world and beat down anyone who disagrees than just admit that there are differences which should be celebrated while still having equal rights. The cognative dissonance between the world as it is and the world as it seems thanks to those who don't want equal rights as much as for men and women to cease to exist, to create one species-wide unisex with no different behaviours, thought patterns, or social interactions.
Yes, this idea of the unisex, where a beautiful woman isn't really so because it's not PC for the facts to be so, or for a man and a woman to fall in love(or lust, or even THINK about each other that way, ever), is very convenient for the massive corporations that think of us as resource units rather than people. Having lived the orwellian nightmare of doublethink, however, and continuing to live in it because of a lifetime of indoctrination, I can see now that it's not worth it. It's not worth the anguish. Life is more wonderful than that. Women are more than just working machines not to be differentiated from anyone else for any reason, just as they are more than breeding machines, to be differentiated and oppressed.
God forgive me for being human, but I can't and won't take it anymore; Women are absolutely welcome in the engineering and programming fields. It's more fun than marketting and cheaper than art studies, and their wonderful differences could change the field for the better in many ways.
If you have a problem with that, it's a problem with you, not a problem with me. God knows I've paid my PC dues.
slashdot readers are as illiterate as they are stupid
Oh the horrible, horrible irony!