Slashdot Mirror
Former Turkish DMOZ Editor Draws 10 Months In Jail
makne writes "H. Ertas, a Turkish editor of the Open Directory Project (www.dmoz.org) has been sentenced to 10 months in prison after being found guilty of editing a category about the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK). Ertas's lawyer, Suna Coskun, explained that his client had worked as a voluntary editor at the Open Directory Project during his studies at the Euphrat-University and had been responsible for the Kurdish category. At the same time he became interested in Kurds and undertook his own research into the subject. As a voluntary editor, he had sorted the directory submissions but could not be responsible for their content. Therefore there could be no penalty under international law, according to Coskun. His activities could in no way be understood as 'support for a terrorist organisation' and thus Ertas' release was appropriate. The court sentenced Ertas to 10 months in prison and a fine of 416 million Turkish lire ($293). The sentence is not eligible for probation." (Read on for more.)
By email, makne writes "I don't know the editor personally, but the editor was first arrested two years ago, then released on parole until now. Members of the editor community
have tried to help him in any way they can, with no apparent success. The editor resigned from the ODP in 2002."
Makne also provided this link to a summary (from the Kurdish point of view) of earlier attempts to stifle Kurdish sites, including a campaign to have DMOZ's then-parent company Netscape remove the Kurdish category from DMOZ.
I believe that organizations like DMOZ should have the ability to quickly react, perhaps in protest, to situations like this one.
For example, rigorous semantic information attached to every DMOZ record would allow the DMOZ community to suspend or flag all information related to the Turkish government, in protest of the current situation. Such a capability could easily be abused or taken too far, which is why it should be reserved only for situations which have direct effect on the organization (and/or its editors, in the case of DMOZ).
With enough open (as in speech) organizations touching enough people in the world, both major and minor misbehavior by governments around the would could be brought to light in this way.
Where's the news? I see four links in the summary and none of them points to the news about the sentence.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
to ask the stupid question, but how does one get a penelty under international law for writing something??? "Therefore there could be no penalty under international law, according to Coskun."
My UID is prime and so is this number: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.
but at least he'll be out (hopefully) in 10 months. Abuses of power are rampant throughout the globe.
As a Turkish guy I can tell you PKK is a terrorist organisation now known as Kadek.. html for more info.
Guilty of killing about ~30k people including children and women.
Please see http://www.teror.gen.tr/english/organisations/pkk
Also note that USA acknowledged recently PKK/Kadek being a terrorist organization.
Never learn by your mistakes, if you do you may never dare to try again
This is could be an example of the kind, of political pressure that will make things like say wikipedia less and less of a good thing.
For example the slashdot article in the last months, where there were misinformous facts inserted. How many of these can pile up over time? If a country is suppressing all knowledge of what it really has done, and tying in information on what it wants to be seen as happening then the slow blend from one information into a misinformation can be complete.
And these are self referencing things, too, so, you find wikipedia and dmoz links and maybe some other online encyclopedias all combined together with misinformation.
How will one in the end sort it out?
The nets biggest online nude anime gallery's
I'm joshing, of course. What with Ashcroft retired and all...
I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
So tell me Billy...you ever been in a Turkish prison camp?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
The Turkish government could not have arrested Ertas if they weren't able to determine who had "inserted" the contraband information, nor would the equivalent of a freenet-based DMOZ be susceptible to coercion of any sort in pursuit of the removal any particular category.
And we're thinking of letting Turkey in the EU?
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
It was in the United States' military interest to have an amiable relationship with Turkey... Kind of like China having 'Most Favored' trading status.
Just because a politican says something, dosn't make it true. In fact, the more they say it, the less likely it is true.
can you say anal rape?
you really wish this on someone who's only crime was to list a bunch of sites for informational purposes?
Is what the PKK does any worse than the people
who are in the Turkish military or goverment do?
Remember, Freedom can't protect itself.
I'm glad I live in an open and free country like the USA where chilling tactics like this aren't used! Imagine if people were punished for merely providing a forum for other people to post information!
Oh wait
- JoeShmoe
.
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Libel.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
There is a lot wrong with the country right now, and ultra-heavy-handed censorship (regardless of the neutrality of the material censored) is just another grain of sand on the beach.
It's quite possible that the most productive thing is not to exchange criticism, but to help the people living within Turkey's borders. (Note that I did not say "the Turkish people."
I don't approve or say its ok to jail someone because he wrote something on the web.
I just want you to know that PKK is not a "Worker Party" but a Terrorist Organisation.
So you should call them so.
If you don't believe me check Amnesty.org website here
Never learn by your mistakes, if you do you may never dare to try again
To make the absurd amounts of money that the litigius lawyers demand in court these days even more absurd, I say we convert all monetary demands to Turkish Lire. For example:
The RIAA today sued 793 more file-shares for between 2.83 and 5.67 Billion Turkish Lire each.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
The European Community could well put
some pressure on the country or maybe
bounce Yurkey out of the EC.
How soon a wrongly sentenced person
might be released from prison is,
of course, another matter.
Shut the fuck up.
..Or provide any justification whatsoever for locking a guy up for the crime of organising links!
I should be able to organise information about the PKK, the IRA, Hamas, Al Quaeda, ETA, the Tamil Tigers, the CIA, PETA, or any other terrorist organisations without being arrested and jailed. It's just information.
Besides, Bush wants them in, so it cannot be right. He is probably hoping this to have a destabilizing and/or paralyzing influence on the entire EU...
This sounds like a case for The European Cort of Human Rights. Turkey is very eager to join the EU and recently got promises that they could at least start talks with the EU about membership. This was after the EU recognized that Turkey had done progress with regards to human rights (they have had a very dark past with regards to womens' rights, minorities rights, police torture of dissidents, forbidding kurds to publish media in their own language etc). The EU have said that they have to do more though, there are still incidents of torture in Turkish prisons for instance, and opression of kurds.
With the political preassure on the Turkish government, this guy might actually have a chance if enough people raise hell.
I personally will write letter to the court about this case, and I will also contact Amnesty International in Sweden about this.
I urge other Slashdot readers to take similar action.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
My grandfather was an I.R.A. terrorist who fought in the Irish War of Independence (1919-21). The Catholic Church excommunicated him for his allegianaces too. Oh and he certainly killed plenty of Black and Tans.
Oh, but then the I.R.A. won the war, and he got a medal and a soldier's war pension, and the Catholic Church reinstated him. He never bothered with the Church again or with collecting his pension.
Today's terrorist could be tommorow's war hero. The British government even today would have you think that my grandfather was a terrorist, but the Irish nation is living proof that it isn't always so clear cut. It's terribly important that people decide for themselves who are the terrorists and who are not. Governments that think that they can decide for their citizens are merely tyrants, and tyrants often fall when they become intolerable.
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses. If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher.
Well, you better be careful then - maybe you should have posted anonymously and taken the necessary precautions (proxies etc).
After all your country might decide to put you in jail since you are providing information about them just like your fellow countryman who's going to prison for 10 months.
Unless there is PROOF he is supporting those terrorist organizations, I don't see how he deserves to be jailed for 10 months.
If there isn't any evidence, then your government is fascist, and by defending their actions you are supporting them.
And the EU has relations with them.
(Think they don't? David Hicks in in Guantanamo bay because he supported the Taliban, before they happened to piss off the US. George Bush in in the whitehouse despite the same.)
Nobody has ever arrested a reporter or a webmaster anywhere in europe? Not even for "aiding terrorism"?
evil is as evil does
Turkey should render him to the USA for torture^Wquestioning. Otherwise, Turkey is harboring terrorists, and therefore spinning on the Axis of Evil.
--
make install -not war
obligatory "I'll get flamed for this" statement aside...
What's with the age-old "they killed women and children" stuff ?
In war and terror, women and children *kill*.
In war and terror, women and children get killed.
If I were an Israeli borderguard and a woman strapped with explosives runs towards me, I would... kill them.
If I were a Sudan military or somesuch and a rebel child points an AK47 at me ready to fire, I would... shoot them in the legs, hopefully, but good chance I'd aim for the chest due to the larger surface area and it'd probably... kill them.
These particular 'women and children' statements are hollow when put into perspective this way, in my opinion.
Now you may not share that point of view, or you may point out that these are "innocent women and children". Perhaps or, in the case of terrorist attacks, likely so. But does that mean the men were not innocent ? Does it mean that the loss of their life is somehow not as disturbing/devastating as that of the women and children ?
Just my thoughts...
"How would of Horatio Alger handle this situation?" is no way for a government to work with the media.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
Myself, I don't care that Turkey is mostly geographically in Asia. Much of Russia is too, as are several other European countries partially or fully outside of purely geographic Europe.
Nosir, I don't want Turkey to join the E.U. because:
1) It is still far too corrupt and not a true democracy. Its economy is in a bad way too.
2) It has committed genocide against the native peoples of Turkey in the past and officially denies it. Turkey is a settler colonial country like the USA. Which brings to the third point...
3) Turkey is not a European country and the Turks aren't Europeans. They're Turkic, along with the other Turkic peoples of Central Asia. It is more literally correct to call them Mongolian than European. They invaded and squashed the native Indo-European people of the place a millennium ago and during WW1. To call them "European" is as a twisted abomination as pretending everyone in North America is '1st Nations', and denies them their true cultural identity as Turks. If I was more Turkish, I'd be pretty annoyed at people insisting I was 'European'.
4) Politicians wanting Turkey to join the E.U. fall into two types: neo-liberalists who want lots of low-paid immigrants, and socialists who are desparate to have a 'new Europe' which is 'multicultural' and as unEuropean as possible. They'll be wanting Morrocco in the E.U. next.
There ought to be a Turkic Union, Turkey would well deserve a membership in that. Having Turkey in the E.U. would be like having Italy in the Arab League.
We can't build a better world on a lie. Turkey and Europe can't be true to themselves with a sham like this.
Those attacked call them terrorists, those attacking call themselves freedom fighters, I just call them guerillia warriors and leave the morality of their cause for the historians.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Is anyone else amazed at the currency comparison?
Quick Math:
416 Million Lire = $293
416,000,000 / $293 = 1,419,795
1,419,795 / 100 = 14,197
$0.01 = 14,197 Lires
My two cents = 28,394 of these suckers!
ItWasFree.com - Take the mystery
Ideally, I think we need a whole new *physical* layer Internet, separate from the existing Internet or Internet2 and devoid of participation by any and all governmental agents and anybody else who is significantly on the government payroll (defense contractors, etc.). Something like a wireless (or perhaps wired, where suitable), fully privately-owned mesh network on which only community-approved (based on the agreement of a certain number of surrounding and already-participating node-owners, much like with WASTE, except in meatspace) private nodes may communicate, over which all traffic is encrypted, possibly multiple times, possibly in hardware...
Yeah. First of all, wireless would be extremely bad, because it makes eavesdropping a snap. Even with encryption, it MAY be possible to conduct traffic analysis under certain preconditions. Second: the RF spectrum is the property of the state, which licenses its use to private parties. If you want to sidestep governments with wireless technology, it will always be illegal.
Having said this, you're right too: Not that long ago, we didn't rely on commercial internet service providers to connect our computers. We used UUCP or other custom made solutions that ran on the good ole POTS.
Imagine some kind of "UUCP Reloaded", using wireless spectrum! That would be great.
There's also MANET, which seeks to provide mobile ad hoc networking (a.k.a. mobile routing). That is also a good step in the right direction.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Why don't you try and form a nazi web site in germany and tell me that you are democratic. Go ahead and make sure you deny the holocaust never happened too. Let's see how long that web site stays up and how long it takes to haul your ass to jail.
europeans sure are sanctimonius bastards, I guess your shit don't stink huh?
evil is as evil does
About a year and a bit ago, Sherman Austin was arrested and ended up doing about a year for providing a link on a website to another website with info on making molotov cocktails.
,years ago, a guy did a long sentence for providing information on how to legally avoid voting (compulsary voting in australia).
When Ashcrofts boys leant on him and threatened him with charges of terrorism, he made a plea bargain that would get him a coupla months jail. The judge ignored the bargain and gave him a year.
Groups like the EFF have basically said if he didnt do the plea bargain , he probably would of been released on grounds of first amendment, but he plead thinking he'd only be in a short stay. Effectively the judge denied him the chance for a real defence against a long sentence.
In australia
And in britain, the servers of journalist group indymedia where siezed without explaination or warning , and now it seems without legal grounds.
Journalists are arrested *daily* around the world for writing articles that offend governments.
Turkey aint the only ones up to this sort of crap.
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Unfortunately as a US taxpayer, I have to finance US military aid to Turkey to the tune of billions of dollars. Locking up people who write about the Kurds in Turkey is small potatos, the Turks have been massacring Kurds for years. If anyone remembers, they even invaded Iraq (which the US administration didn't want) just to kill Kurds that were in Iraq. This is the thing that Saddam Hussein was lambasted for - gassing Kurds (although the US sent him helicopters after he did that of course too). Yet the Turks have been doing it, are doing it, and will be doing it. This never appears on the US corporate media of course, just the tragedy that a candidate not on the privatization fast track might win the Ukranian election.
...has recently passed a 10 month sentence on all who ate turkey on thanksgiving day. Almost as ridiculous!
Free Firefox news reader.
An amazing thing about Turkey is its attitude to foreigners: it's warm, caring and hospitable. No where else in the world in my rather extensive travels have I met this level of friendliness and courtesy -- especially not in Europe. Foreigners are treated here with respect and with great interest.
Turkey is also a country bordered by aggressor nations: Iran, Iraq, Syria. In addition, it has an internal population that is not just separatist, it's terrorist. Israel is in the same boat and is much harsher on its opposing poplulation -- and yet Israel has international support.
I have watched the changes the Turkish government is making to enter the EU. You can't imagine how much pride they're swallowing to have their history and honor stepped on by Belgian chocolatiers, French pastry-chefs, German schnitzel-makers, English fish-and-chips vendors... There is NO WAY that any of you would tolerate such treatment in your own countries. Further -- the rank-and-file Turk doesn't want EU membership.
Nobody seems to complain about the Turks when they're assisting US/NATO military operations, disallowing the transit through their waters of former Soviet aircraft carriers on their way to the Red Chinese military, managing the flow of Iraqi oil to the West...
I am saddened by all your ignorance. Your education on Turkey has come from watching "Baron Munchausen" and "Midnight Express" too many times ("Midnight Express" is a hugely FALLACIOUS piece of shit, btw).
Right now Turkey is extremely sensitive to criticism about human rights violations since they are applying for EU membership. This is quite controversial, so it's easy to find politicians who could have an interest in bringing this case to the forefront. Try to find the representatives involved in foreign affairs.
Disclaimer: I'm a supporter of Turkey's EU membership, but I'm an even greater supporter of free speech.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
This is why the EU won't let Turkey join. If you want to be taken seriously in the international community, you can't do things like this.
We complain about our loss of freedom in the US, but I don't think something like this would happen here. We are slightly freer than Europe and Turkey.
My other car is first.
Already in place. It's called "mouth-to-mouth", "face to face", "meeting in person". 6 billion users worldwide, very scalable, accessible to anyone who speaks the local lingo, free as in beer and free as in freedom, anonymous if desired (you don't know me, I don't know you, or secretly slip a note in someone's pocket), tamper-proof, available 24/7, works without electric power, earthquake and flood resistant, and can be secured very well against wiretapping.
Drawbacks: moderate efficiency, high latency, low bandwidth, machine-readability stinks. Use when non-machine readable information exchange is desired, or when all else fails.
Turkey is also in the North Atlantic Treaty, despite not being located anywhere near the North Atlantic.
Having a democratic Iran join the EU in 2025 is not really that farfetched of an idea.
Besides, Bush wants them in, so it cannot be right. He is probably hoping this to have a destabilizing and/or paralyzing influence on the entire EU...
Maybe he's just hoping that it will have a democratizing and modernizing influence on Turkey? I'm not a Bush fan, but Bush generally seems to have good intentions; it's just the implementation of his good intentions that he fucks over beyond belief.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
This is why i do not want Turkey in the EU!!!
---if anyone still needs a gmail invite, message me, i have few to spare.
This is oh-so-baseless argument that is being put against Turkey. I wonder what you guys feel when a news like this sourcing from EU land hits the papers. I bet you would go ahead and claim that "Punish him more!". Although I do respect the fact that freedom of speech is an important value, I would strongly argue that if same thing happened, say in US; a guy editing an article on supportive Bin-laden actions, he would be able to get away. I guess, instead of putting him to jail, they would invade (or set free, if you like Bush buzz words) his country... In terms of EU membership, Turkey is an opportunity for EU. Do not think about Turkey joining right now, it will take 10 -15 years anyways; but as a country which reduced its inflation rate to single digits in 2 years, an economic growth rate of %8, do the math and calculate what will it be in 15 years... By than, most of the EU countries will have shrinking economies...
That'll teach the british soldiers to drink tea.
We do not want Tureky in EU! Just because things like in this article - they do not honor human rights! And I hope, that even in the worst scenarion, when all the EU would say YES, Greeks, a traditional enemy of Turks, would say NO!
I do not mind 99% of Turkey is not in Europe (Cyprus is not in Europe at all). I do not mind they are muslims, I am not a christian and I see no big difference between christianity and islam. I do not mind their poor economy, my cvountry's economy is not much better. But I really cannot stand things like those described in the article.
Deliriant isti Americani.
As a turkish citizen, even posting with my real name for years..
I'd love to participate in this discussion, ask about how come turkish media is cencored etc or replying to each clueless european which hates Turkey for some funny reason and jumping to this discussion about how disgusting thing Turkey did to poor(!) category editor etc.
The problem is... I don't want to. I don't care. I stopped doing such stuff years ago.
As an unimportmant note, can I BEG you people not to compare Mandela to PKK/KADEK? I don't remember Mandela ordered black people to burn schools, kill teachers, kill all village only because they participated in election...
I mean, for my stomach's sake, don't make me disgusted.
Quote:
....
Turkey is not in Europe,
except for a very small part
unquote.
So it is. Well: Duh!
And having said that, Turkey's history is intimately linked to Europe. They are in the unique position that they can call themsleves Europeans or Asians, the rest of parochial Europeans seems to be weary of that.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... and saying blantant lies should be penalized somehow.
Free speech has limits everywhere, but some limits are arbitrary and dictatorial, others are put in place by democratic concensus.
That difference matters.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Well put!
And surely they raised in arms for no good reason?
The story of what the Kurds have suffered under Turkish rule has a particular chapter in the black book of history.
Ignore one side of the problem and you are condemned to eternal radicalism and hate.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You are not understanding the issue at hand.
You are so blinded by your goverment propaganda that are incapabla to understand why blame by tenous association is not an acceptable standard to dish out justice.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
>>
Kurds are an ethnic minority, like jews were in nazi germany - a Kurd cannot decide to stop being a kurd, no less than I can stop being a caucasean.
>>
That is exactly what the Nazis were saying: Jews are a ethnic group, a race. While the jewish religion has some disturbing conceptions of heritage and blood-lineage it is possible to become a member of a different religion and cease to be jewish. According to the local synode council it is much harder for a christian to become a jew than vice versa.
Whatever, considering the jews an ethnic minority is making the Nazi point.
And on a side note: explain "ethnic". Thank you.
Who cares if they're a terrorist organization? The idea of being arrested for being a DMOZ editor where such an organization is in the category is ridiculous. I'd be very upset, similarly, if someone from the U.S. or U.K. was arrested for editing a category re Osama. Or if you prefer, imagine a Palestinian being arrested for editing a category on {Hezbollah, Israel, you pick it}...
The point is not whether or not the organization is terrorist (whatever that means anymore).
Inflamatory perhaps.
Branding not one but two whole ethnic groups as terrorists is a typical fascist tactic.
Well done, we know how your boat rocks.
To further add to your public humillation then you go on a cheap tirade against people form other European countries (did you notice I wrote "other", because I believe to deny Turkish European heritage is foolish), yet another fascist tactic.
The part of Turkish history and "honour" that Turkey have to swallow is the worst part of it: torture, military dictatorships, ethnic discrimination against Kurds (they did not have schools where their language was spoken for example), lack of free speech.
If Turkey expects to join an organization whith a certain outlook of the World then they should fit that outlook or stay away.
It is not the EU who is eager to have Turkey, it is Turkey who has been pressing for EU membership.
If what they have to give up was so precious then they could decide to stay out of the EU, the EU will not invade them to force to join....
There may be people here that know not much about Turkey, but there is no worst ignorant than the one that has decided to be one, using whatever means are available to justify his own, not necessarily accurate, version of the world.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Israel competes in Eurovision and they are in... Israel??
I think that this just shows what is wrong with dmoz. Unlike wikipedia where everything is open and subject to review (by anyone), dmoz is very secretive. Right from listing a site to selecting an editor.
Dmoz has been hijacked by a few SEOs and fanatics, and H. Ertas has got what he deserved.
Also, reading the posts above, I frankly don't see how this affects wikipedia. Try and appreciate the difference, a sentence has been passed against an Editor NOT against dmoz.
However, Greek hate them more than us (I'm from Romania), because Constantinople and Western Turkey was theirs until the Turks invaded them.:-)
I'm sorry, the number you have dialed is an imaginary number. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and dial again.
Not only because of political o economic reasons, but also plain geographical ones: Turkey is not in Europe, but in Asia. I have always wondered why is there so much fuss about Turkey joining the EU and not about Morocco or Egypt, for example (same proximity, similar cultural ties).
I seriously fear that our beloved politicians will force the issue upon us. For practical purposes, it will be the end of the European Union, transformed just into a unified market for German and US products.
Each editor is responsible for adding/reviewing/accepting URLs. It is his/her obligation to visit the pages, review the site and then categorized it (if thinks proper). That's the only difference between auto-bot-related categorization and manual one. As I understand the Turkish reviewer (or the lawyer) claims that accepting a site, categorizing it, adding it to the database, reviewing it has nothing to do with reviewer's actions and that he is not responsible about it?
Wow, imagine the reviewer had the subtree child and children pornography sites where all over it, categorized in a perfect way, clean, with keywords. (why am i responsible for the content, i was ordered to categorize and i categorized as better as i could. Wow even Nazi don't use this line any more as a defence line in courts)
The category in question is this, which is the turkish category about the Kurdish people.
The editor had not edited the category that was posted in the original story. Sorry for that mixup.
Most of the slashdotters have no idea about the politics in other parts of the world, but I have never seen a more naive comment in my life. Conguratulations.
Instead of critisizing some uneducated people of your country (well, most countries have those) who pass heavy-handed decisions, you try to defend them.
low bandwidth
;)
Never underestimate the bandwidth of me handing you the keys to a van full of hard drives.
I was wondering how you people can sleep at night, Thanks to you, I have some idea now.
Anyway, it is unlikely that those women and children try to attack a terrorist organization. In other words, if PKK kills some civilian it cannot be because they are trying to prevent a bomb or anything, it is simply because that is what they do.
So, who actually gives a fuck ?
Come on, hands up. Who gives a fuck ?
With an exchange rate of nearly 1.5M Lira to the $ (and yes, a massively depressed dollar at that), who seriously cares ?
I'm amazed to think I spent nearly 150M on beer this evening at my favorite watering hole.
For the record, I do not think Israel should be in the EU either.
Terrorism has one single definition: It is the use of violence targeting explicitely parts of the population not directly involved in a conflict (e.g., civilians) in order to create a terror climate and make life impossible to them, thus forcing those who don't want to take sides to take part. Even if all forms or violence are to be rejected, terrorism is particularly devious, because, as stated, it can only extend a conflict, not force its resolution in one way or another. This is why it should always be condemned, even when it comes in support of a just cause.
Just causes are a more complex matter, as they do depend on individual points of view and philosophy. However, some rights are quite universally acknowledgeable, such as the right to live in peace at the location where one is born with equal rights to carry on their daily activities as their neighbour have (note the implications of transitivity).
Some examples should help:
It is important that people decide for themselves what is a just cause and what is not. It is also, perhaps more important, that they know about what is going on and have clear notion that the end does not justify all means.
Could you please elaborate? I know it's fashionable to assume that Bush is evil incarnate, but everything he's done can be explained if he's caring, trying to do good, and simply incredibly stupid, incompetent, or ineffective. Why should I assume he's evil if there is no evidence of it? Do you have anything to back up this claim that my comment is naive?
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Shut the fuck up about why they're not being let in the EU. I always assumed the American line about how it was racism that kept them out. Their values and political system are out of line with the West. The west isn't going to and shouldn't change. It seems clear Turkey won't. And as long as they won't, the won't be welcome in the West. Simple as that. Will
Most of Turkey is in Asia, but Istanbul is in Europe and has strong historical ties to Europe - it became the capital of the Roman empire after the fall of Rome. I'm opposed to Turkish membership of the EU, but I have to admit that Turkey, like Russia, is neither entirely Asian nor entirely European, so there's an argument for considering it part of Europe.
I don't know if he is true evil or not, but he didn't do many things because of the goodness of his heart. (He cannot do by the way, he has to answer to American people).
Ask yourself this question: of all the countries in the world, why did he pick the one with second biggest oil reserves, to "save"?
I'd be very upset, similarly, if someone from the U.S. or U.K. was arrested for editing a category re Osama
But that wouldn't happen in the US or UK. We, like the rest of the West, value freedom of expression. Turkey doesn't. So Turkey doesn't belong in the EU.
Will
I'd be very upset, similarly, if someone from the U.S. or U.K. was arrested for editing a category re Osama
But that wouldn't happen in the US or UK. We, like the rest of the West, value freedom of expression. Turkey doesn't. So Turkey doesn't belong in the EU.
Will
Until Turkey understands what "human rights" really are - more than a lot of 'bla bla'...
In the end, they should be allowed to join, but that will be at least 10 if not 20 years away - depending on how many more actions Turkey has in stock for it's dissidents.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
Not to mention that until recently speaking Kurdish was forbidden. Can anybody imagine this ? Just walking on the street speaking your native tongue and get busted for this! And this is Turkey, where the police and authorities have hundreds of years of experience in torture.
I mean, for my stomach's sake, don't make me disgusted.
I'm sorry, the number you have dialed is an imaginary number. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and dial again.
I agree with you there, it's a bit of both worlds. Same as you can feel the oriental feel in Greece, for example. I am pro a turkish membership, when they have settled their economical and security-political obstacles, as well as the humanitarian situation. I can agree that Turkey is a huge new market to move into for European companies, more than they already have that is.
I think it's safer to view these things as "the sincere beliefs of the authors" (or, more cynically, "what the authors would like other people to believe"), rather than having any close correspondence with "truth" as such. That's not as big a problem as it may sound, because it's true of pretty much every written claim everywhere all the time, and anyone who tells you otherwise is, to borrow from The Princess Bride, selling something.
The philosopher John Stuart Mill had a solution for this kind of problem, which he wrote about in his essay, "On Liberty": make all conflicting viewpoints available. Let all sides present their case with argument and evidence. The way you sort it out is by evaluating the evidence and the arguments in much the same way that court cases are decided, except that the decision is made on an individual basis, rather than for all. The general approach can be summarised like so: it is better that one be at liberty to believe a falsehood than forced to believe a truth. (For discussion: do you agree or disagree with this statement? Why and to what extent?)
A relevant portion of Mill's "On Liberty" is currently quoted at Nutters.org if you care for a little more philosophical reading.
Besides, Bush wants them in, so it cannot be right.
Ah, this must be that sophisticated, nuanced political analysis Europe^H^H^H^H^H^HSlashdot is so known for.
Correct me if im wrong, ( not knowing the entire story here ) but that is how i take the summary.
"you write/write/publish about subject xyz, we jail you'
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Watch out on the sweeping generalisations, or some anonymous pedant is likely to point out the flaws in the statement as a matter of principle. Not all law is about "good and bad": a substantial portion of it is entirely utilitarian. Taxes are not legislated in such-and-such a way because of "good/bad" reasons (although any attempt to be "fair" will ground itself in that territory) but rather to generate revenue for public works in a viable manner. Some trade regulations are grounded in morality (no cheating, stealing, etc) but just as many exist for purely utilitarian reasons. Copyright isn't about enforcing the moral truth that "stealing is wrong", despite what some propagandists would have us believe: it's supposed to be about the utilitarian goal of promoting the progress of science and the useful arts. (In practice these days it's more about protecting entrenched interests -- a perennial problem with utilitarian laws of this sort.)
Rant ends. Summary: law has far less to do with morality than you think it does. No argument against "clear and simple" though. Preferably "as few as reasonably possible" also: Tacitus could well be a modern commentator, not a guy who died nearly 2000 years ago, with lines like, "And now bills were passed, not only for national objects but for individual cases, and laws were most numerous when the commonwealth was most corrupt."
I'm all for more countrys joining the EU, but when countrys do this kind of shit!
As for as I'm concerned Turkey can feck off till they sort out things like this.
"WebTV: bringing the Internet into the shallow end of the gene pool since 1995" - Martin Bishop
Saddam would be proud of such actions.
They are so NOT joining the European Union I'm in!!
Does that mean i can now apply for the kurds position? First order of business, add turkish-government-censorship-sucks.com
"If you aren't doing anything wrong, you have no need for anonymity."
Slashdot needs to start posting more of these articles from around the world. The less astute among us will still cling to their lack of sensibilities on this subject, but people must start to realize that people really are persecuted for unpopular opinions (Your terrorist is my freedom fighter).
The more pervasive we make anonymity and cryptography everywhere, the easier it will be to protect people that need or deserve to be protected.
"On another note I fail to see how the german laws you cite are any more stifling to free speech than laws prohibiting libel. "
Please. Lets push the PC ideology out of the way and say I find Nazi's and Neo-Nazi's intellectually bankrupt and just plain wrong.
However, libel is about lies, whereas the Nazi/neo-Nazi ideology is about opinion.
I think it speaks volumes that the German people are unable to articulate a coherent viewpoint about Naziism and so passes a law to prohibit opinions.
Every other country in the world has an intellectual underpining against Naziism, but Germany can't figure it out. To me, that says way more about Germany than it does about Nazis.
The link below contains a 3rd party link to human rights reports in Turkey for about the last 15 years.
http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey
And even learned the language and can still speak it a bit now, ten years later. You obviously know very little about Turkey if you claim that Turkish prisons weren't that bad. I knew from quite a few turks who had landed up in them (and it isn't that hard to land up in a Turkish prison, just piss someone with money or influence off and bob's your uncle) that they were and are very harsh places.
I also had some Kurdish friends who ran a restaurant, and they were regularly rounded up and stuffed into prison whenever the PKK had done something again. In fact the only local Kurd who wasn't regularly rounded up was the local mafia boss who had, wait for it, money and influence.
There are very nice and friendly Turks, but there's one hell of a lot of fascist bigotted corrupt arseholes as well.
Namely, in Germany it's against the law to be part of certain neo-nazi ideologies and holocaust denial
The Kurds are a large displaced and repressed culture. Turkey is using NATO weapons in a war on it's own citizens because of their race.
Holocaust denail et al, is more akin to telling lies, that are known to be lies without doubt, and furthermore, these lies seriously offend an ethnic group.
Zundel, a holocaust denialist, was charged and convicted of "knowingly publishing false news", on this very issue...
in the true land of the free...
Canada
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
On another note I fail to see how the german laws you cite are any more stifling to free speech than laws prohibiting libel. Neonazism is tightly coupled to malicious defamation of jews - according to the laws of most countries that constitutes libel. Mentioning neonazism explicitly in the law just serves to simplify libel lawsuits.
Exactly...
Those laws are about antagonizing ethnic groups with lies that are know to be false without a doubt.
Completely different is trying to annihilate a minority culture, such as the war the Turks are raging on the Kurds.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
the turks murder the kurds almost like a sport and the US government (under many administrations) has supported this.
why are we splitting hairs on legal wording? in a case like this you must realize that the turkish general staff does what they will and that is ALL that matters.
Every Turk I talk to who is non-Kurdish says the same thing (i.e. PKK is bad. They kill innocents. They are terrorists.). Unfortunately when you talk to a Turkish Kurd you hear a different story. The Turkish created the PKK when they tried to legislate Kurdish culture out of the Kurds. There was no PKK before average Kurds were herded into one region of the country, had their language outlawed, and had their history banned from schoolbooks. It was an oh-so-soft genocide. Don't kill the Kurdish person, just kill the Kurd in the person.
The type of racism and opression Turkey inflicted on their own Kurdish people for 30 years got them the PKK and a Kurdish independence movement. The only reason Turkey fears an independent Kurdish state now is because Turkey would become it's first enemy. Sorry, I know the PKK has done crappy things over the years, and I do not support any group targeting innocent civilians (my definition of terror) but if Northern Iraq and a small part of Turkey were given to Kurds as a homeland 50 years ago (when it was promised) there would be no PKK. Kurds in general are not violent people. Northern Iraq has been autonomously run for almost a decade and is a model of what Kurdish independence will bring.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Captain Oveur: Joey, have you ever been to a Turkish prison?
Sorry...
What Would the Fab Five Do?
Actually, I've seen this before. This is the typical defence of American Imperialism, and it's been used a lot to excuse the war in Vietnam. "Yes, I know that we blew up thousands of Cambodians and that we supported a murderous non-democratic regime in South Vietnam, but our intentions were right... we just fucked up".
Unfortunately, "good intentions" are in the eye of the beholder. Hitler also wanted to spread good Christian german civilisation to the "barbaric hordes" of the east.
slashdot is not a "News Site" but a Terrorist Organization.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
The odds are you've never been in all of these three countries: Turkey, Egypt, and Morocco, and/or you have no idea about their caltural ties. There is a saying by a famous Turkish writer (let me try to translate for you):
As for the membership, as a Turkish citizen, I'm equally against Turkey's membership, but, because of entirely different set of reasons. I think we should strengthen our ties to the east, starting from China...
Cheap distributed publishing makes brings us closer to the truth than expensive publishing. You get uniterested third parties to visit and report. An editor can sort fact from from opinion even when the logical collector of facts, the state, is lying. It's that easy. The alternative is to go back to expensive and state controlled publishing, something that's sure to have less information for everyone.
The quantity of excellent articles piling up at places like Wiki is clear proof that there are more disinterested and knowledgable people than there are interested and malicious people in the world. It's that information revolution thing you have heard about.
National governments are afraid of the loss of their former propaganda advantage. Too bad for them. They are going to have to do things right. Putting people in jail for editing articles is very wrong.
If the US is living up to it's rhetoric, the editor has a clear pass at US citizenship. It is clear that he's committed no real crime, and is in danger of real physical harm for political reasons. Turkish prisons are supposed to be very bad and lots of things can happen in 10 months. Unfortunately, the US is busy putting people on trial here for providing technical services to terrorists, by running web sites. Nasty! We shall see where this goes.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The guy did NOT write about the PKK, not even give a link to PKK related issues. The sites he listed were entirely about Kurdish culture and language. The category he edited is the Turkish equvalent of Turkey/Ethnical Groups/Kurds
There is an ongoing campaign to close down the whole World/Kurdish branch of the Open Directory Project. See details here: http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=3341 (note: I personally don't agree with the term "fascist")
The campaign itself is here: http://www.kampanyaturk.gen.tr/kampanya.php?id=25
This is not about terrorism, it is entirely about free spreech.
Erdal Ronahi
Yet again, the moderators have shown their complete and utter stupidity. The grandparent post ought to be moderated as flamebait! I swear, if I didn't know better, I'd say that this blog was patronized by a bunch of pimply teenagers living in the basement...oh.
The IRA killed plenty of police officers during their fight. They are civilians. And a bomb does not discriminate between civilians and military. Nice try at rewriting history.
Kurds and Jews are the same. Terrorists, Ambidextrous, Devious, Dirty, Unfair, Bad and everything else than humans.
I think ambidextrous might mean something other than what you think it means, nice troll though.
Without mentioning any names - on Wikipedia, we do have a small number of editors from countries not friendly to the West. One editor in particular is from Iran. A troublesome user threatened to report him (her?) to the authorities in Iran. That troublesome user was immediately given a lifetime ban. The jusitification used was that he had violated the policy against no death threats (which is effectively what his threat was).
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Why would I do that? I don't have a problem with people who want to do something as innocuous as edit a DMOZ category. If someone in Europe wants to edit a DMOZ category about Al Qaeda, then I will wish them every success.
Turkey's economy is irrelevant; they could have the global economic power of the US and I still wouldn't be happy with their entry into the EU unless they cleaned up their act democratically. If we were to use that as a gauge for entry, then there would be a number of South East Asian countries already eligible to join the EU - Singapore, for example. But they themselves aren't even close to democratic, and hence I wouldn't let them in either.
-- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
I don't have a problem with their location, or the country itself. My problem is with their lack of regard for democracy, for human rights and for free speech.
If they can sort out those issues and show that they intend to adhere to them, they are more than welcome in.
But not before.
-- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
Actually, US military aid to Turkey last year was US$50 million. US economic aid to Turkey was around a billion dollars, with another 8 billion in loan guarantees. That's money for things like infrastructure improvement and rebuilding stuff destroyed by the earthquakes.
I appreciate your desire of wanting your tax dollars to be well spent, but maybe you should be aware of what they're being spent on before you pop off. Oh, and your last sentence really makes you sound like a tin-hatted buffoon.
AC
Heheheh. This sounds so much like the rhetoric of the left wing in the US, where people promised time and time again that if George Bush won the election, they'd move to Canada. How about all you EU citizens that don't want the Turks in the EU vow to move to Canada if they get in?
hello I am turkish and I dont like things like that happening in my country either. also please keep in mind that this guy probably appeal and he does has the chance to cancel the verdict so to turkish people lets all support Ertas and his freedom.
FUD isn't fact.
AC
How is this any different than German laws concerning neo-Nazis supporters and Holocaust deniers?
While I agree that such individuals are morons in need of a reality check, both Germany and Turkey enforce fundimentally similar laws limiting self-expression and free-speech.
-- No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
Winnie Mandela has had to account (though not very convincingly) for some interesting activities.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
- This compares in no way to bringing charges against groups that post the addresses of doctors along with the suggestion that they should be punished. Even had the man directly posted a political rant about the plight of the Kurds, the difference between saying "abortion is wrong, and we should stand against people who do it" and "abortion, which John Smith of 1 Main St practices (bastard should pay for what he's done (wink, wink)) is wrong," is monumental under the laws of any civilized nation.
- We're talking about editing links and summary descriptions, people, please try to keep that in mind when replying.
- The Kurds are, according to Wikipedia, "an ethnic group of Iranian origin (itself a branch of the larger Indo-European family), comprised of (according to some sources) about 25 million people, primarily in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria [...] Kurdish guerillas launched attacks on Turkish targets in 1984, and since then they have fought against the Turkish government for independence and the right to be educated in Kurdish schools, with little success." You can see why the Turks are not particularly fond of the Kurds, but at the same time that in no way excuses this behavior.
- Speaking of Wikipedia, no this doesn't bode ill for Wikipedia and other Wikis. Revision histories and revision editing are an increasingly sophisticated area of Wiki development and Wikipedia does a very good job of reverting changes that are motivated by non-factual concerns. In fact, it's generally easier for honest innacuracy (e.g. what the ex-Brittanica editor pointed out previously on Slashdot) to sneak in than deliberate mistruths in a controvercial subject (exactly because it IS controvercial).
Thanks and carry on.for FUCKS sake
in case anyone still had delusions that we lived in a sane world...
*SIGH*
-- left the US on 11/6/04
still gone
So in order to punish the Turkish government for prohibiting ODP editors from disseminating information about the PKK, you advocate prohibiting ODP editors from disseminating information about the Turkish government? Who is really being punished most here?
The problem with reciprocal measures, even when applied with restraint, is that they can be used to justify each other. It's an eye for an eye, and eventually the whole world goes blind.
The ODP is hardly that influential, and most organizations don't even have any web pages about Turkey to modify in the first place. I'm convinced the Internet can be used both to shed light on political oppression around the world and to affect the actions of governments, but I'm equally convinced that self-censorship or spamdexing is not the way to do it.
If you want to do something, block Turkish networks from accessing your website (and make sure to inform the user why). Don't try to block everybody else from accessing Turkish websites.
I was an ODP editor during the first half of 2000, but dropped it due to lack of time.
Current resistance in Irak is not terrorism, as it targets essentially police and occupying forces.
Are you fucking kidding me?
To be sure, the American/British forces and their allies, along with the Iraqi police and armed forces are targets--but so, it seems, is everybody else. Car bombs blowing up civilians, international aid workers kidnapped and shot, foreign workers trying to rebuild power plants and communications kidnapped and decapitated... and the list goes on.
Certainly there are SOME groups in Iraq that constitute "freedom fighters" but there are most assuredly others who do earn the "terrorist" label.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Sherman Austin was arrested, confessed to, and convicted of 18 U.S.C. 842(p), a 1997 "anti-terrorism" law authored by California Senator Dianne Feinstein. This federal law mandates up to 20 years in prison for anyone convicted of "distribut[ing] bombmaking information with the knowledge or intent that the information will be used to commit a violent federal crime" [emphasis added] (from http://rwor.org/a/1217/austin.htm )
o v.sh tml
c om
The information ITSELF is completely LEGAL and can be found at http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/raisethefist/
An example of one page of the material is at
http://forbiddenspeech.org/ReclaimGuide/molot
and contains (among other things) the sentence "The most high explosive and lethal mixture is amonium-nitrate-based fertilizer mixed with gasoline. Just stuff the bottle with this mixture and light the fucker. This method should be made with a plastic bottle so that it will not break on impact. When you light it, the bottle will quickly explode so be quick. Using a fuse is a good idea. " which is typical of the whole.
I believe in free speech. I just now exercized my free speech. But I'm posting on Slashdot, not a site whose PURPOSE IS THE VIOLENT OTHERTHROW OF THE GOVERNMENT.
Maybe we're all better off that the Austin spent a year in jail (he's out now).
You can access copies of Austin's site's main page as it existed in the past at http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://RaisetheFist.
So after using slashdot more then 6 years I got news about MY country...
And I see lots of comments about Turkey and thoose PKK terrorists...
Sorry guys your knowladge about Turkey and history just noting. Let me give some Turkish information to you.
Remember this is Turkey, not USA not EU. Our first priorty is keep country together, one piece at whatever its cost.
After World War I, Ottoman Empire was collapse, major European countries capture every location of Turkey. Our ancestors (including Kurds) fougth to get back our freedom. In our freedom war European nations ignite every minor culture in Turkey to weaken freedom fighters, there are lots of revolts against to new goverment founded by freedom fighters and all of them failed and their cost too high.
After the won our freedom, new goverment create new vision to unification the country. Because Ottoman Empire was multi-culture nation (like today's USA) and when times become worst every part of the nation wants make their way and cannot became together to act against enemy. To avoid this Mustafa Kemal ATATURK creates new vision around Turk and Turkish language. The nation has upper ID around to be Turk also people has own minor culture ID but non of them above the country or country unification or coutry goals.
So this nev vision works perhaps may not in best condition and its works. After 81 years, 3 military coups, lots of terror and anarchy we still one piece.
When Ottoman Empire collapsed, European Nations and Russia take parts of Ottoman Empire other than current Turkey. So look most of them, pain, blood, war still continues. That chaos created by those MODERN WEST because of OIL.
And we got tons of evidence USA, Grece and other European Nations support PKK/Kadek (AKA Baby Killers) in past to weaken Turkey.
Our law system may not be perfect and that guy may goes prison because of the some stupid goverment officals (I thing you got same stories). And this isn't mean we are bad guys, we try to make them better we try to understand others.
And I suggest you to do same, to understand us.
We, The Turks owner of the best landscape of Old Eart. Our position is wery near of all major oil stocks in Asia and Middle East. Our lands is soil and fertile. We are middle of the WEST and EAST.
We are willing to give all to keep this country to be unite and one piece.
I'm writing this note as a Turkish guy who currently do his military service in these one of the hot areas.
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
few think of it as terrorism even today as the victims were so dehumanised
Well, almost ever history book I'd seen previous to September 11, 2001 referred to the WWII bombing campaigns-- both by the nazis and the allies-- as "Terror Bombing".
I haven't seen any history books printed since then. I'd be curious to see whether this phrase remains in use now.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Is no one aware that those who envisioned the EU back after WW2 had Turkey in mind for eventual membership? Turkey's already part of some of your little European cliques -- like NATO. The EU is just another one. No, it's not happening now -- but they'll be full members within, say, ten years.
So throw your little Euro-tantrums all you want -- Turkey will be a member of the EU. It's a done deal.
Earlier in this discussion Chinese students were quoted as saying that "yes indeed" the US should grant the perpetrators of the Tien an Min Square massacre most favoured nation status. Simply put, it's easy to live with enemies - no options, no problems. Creating friends and living with them is more difficult - many options, many problems.
In times of trouble, the smell of frying onions usually gives confidence and comfort.
Actually, I recommend you read the whole of the report (here's the table of contents). The report is very strongly critical both of the PKK and the Turkish authorities.
You're decontextualizing this whole issue. Both sides here have plenty of blood on their hands.
Pick up a history book, take your own advice you modern day janissary.
...
"Food and drink
Impressed by the considerable differences between Mongol eating and drinking habits and those of contemporary Europeans, travellers from Europe wrote a great deal on the subject. The Mongols' nomadic existence necessitated a diet consisting mainly of meat, while milk was the chief drink. They ate the flesh of any animals they could catch during the hunt: dogs, wolves, fox, rats, mice, marmots and rabbits. For them them there were no religious inhibations to eating flesh. Only animals hit by lightning could not be used for food. Horse flesh was a favorite food of the Mongols, while cows and sheep usually provided meals for festive ocasions.
"Only in emergencies was flesh eaten raw, after it had been put under the sadle of a horse which was ridden until it became tender. This, however was exceptional treatment. Usually meat was boiled or roasted. At meals everybody ate from a common pot. Meat left-overs were kept in leather bags. No attention was paid to hygiene. Everything points to the conclusion that the Mongols had what we would regard as filthy eating habits, largely as a result of the law that water should not be fouled. It is known that the Mongols in dire need ate human flesh. Ancient Chinese texts confirm that there was some question of athropophagy among the Mongols.
"Although they drank fresh milk, qumys the fermented milk of mares, was the favorite drink of the Mongols."
page 9-10 "Genghis Khan: Conqueror of the World by Leo de Hartog" 1999(Barnes and Nobles Books)
Now you may wonder why I pasted that in about the Mongols. First, it is in my personal library and second, the only real difference between the Mongols and the Turkic tribes of the time was that the Mongols had a different Khan than some Turkic tribes, also they spoke Mongolian not a Turkic language, but still of the Ural-Altaic family. That is, the Turkic tribes were very similar to the Mongols in identity except for tribal allegiance but the Mongols under Genghis Khan conquered many Turkic tribes changing this allegiance to a Mongol Khan, splitting them up from their former tribe to add them to the Mongolian tribal confederation(that is making them part of the larger Mongol nation).
"There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkish workmen to build the wall of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din, said the Master [Rumi], you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same is resererved to the Turks. When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion... that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses... so that after centuries these constructions serve as models to the men of recent times. But divine pre-destination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and they are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the day of the Resurrection.""
Eflaki, II, 208-9
According to Speros Vryonis in "Studies on Byzantium, Seljuks, and Ottomans" the Seljuks Islamized Asia Minor by rendering it difficult for the Christianity under muslim rule to operate, Churches were Islamized by adding minarets, Church land became the property of the muslim ummah and the Islamic waqf(how little the Muslims world changes in modern Turkey the Orthodox Patriarch's property was recently added to the muslim waqf land and recently Arafat died
What an understatement...
Killing over a million of Armenians is a feat that even Saddam would not even envision.
MOD DOWN this propaganda!
No, DAldredge, FUCK YOU! Grow a fucking brain already.
I suprises me how many tyrants wish to jail people based on the strangest things. Well this is silly. Although, at the same time the U.S. has jailed millions for drug use. We need a world uprising against tyrants. While the U.S. has tried hard to Democratize the world (Reduce Tyranny Worldwide) it has also become a tyrant in the hundred year process. It's really sad how things creep in from the tax law of 1913 up to the Patriot Act 2002 in less than a hundred years. I expect Patriot Act 4 and 5 in just a few years. The first major attempt to remove the right to a trial with fear/terror was with the 1978 Terrorist Act. A. Lincoln tried the same thing, but it only lasted 2 years, and then again for Americans with Japanese roots during WW2. This is not the same thing. It's just plain Nazi Police State Action World Wide without a wild west to run to.
... for that
While propaganda can influence opinion, it is not mind control. If we believe in democracy, we have to have faith on this, or we might as well just roll over and wait for our new alien overlords to take over.
Don't be too sure until someone you know is indoctrinated by a cult. Kinda brings the reality of being human into sharp focus.
There are two reasons why censorship is a bad idea. The first is that democracy depends on there being a healthy debate of the issues. Using the law to silence your opponent in a debate is like winning a chess match by shooting your opponent.
We're not talking about censorship to silence an opponent in a debate. We're talking a completely different ballpark. People knowingly making false statements that are known to be false and also known to cause anxiety in others. It's kinda like name calling at school. Sure you can argue that it's harmless... until someone takes it too far... and people die.
We're also talking about pornographic materials being circulated for people who suffer from a serious condition; sexual desire of minors. These people are human beings, like everyone else, but they also have the potential of causing great harm... just like any psychopath has the potential to cause harm.
I think we can agree that sex with children is wrong. But what about sex with minors who are past the age of puberty but are below the (local) age of consent?
This is a different issue from adults preying on young children.
If we don't want our children to grow up Nazis, then we shouldn't ban Triumph of the Will. Instead, we should show it in schools - and then take a week to discuss the propaganda techniques used in it. And refute what few logical arguments it uses.
I believe this is naive, but it's hard to explain. Basically human beings believe that they are logical, that they are in control, that they know what's going on, but we fool ourselves. I studied mind control, and as I've grown older I've come to realize just how impossibly irrational even the most logical person is. I've seen how we automatically control and feed off each other as we talk... and how that is immensely more powerful on our discursive thought that our feeble and poorly understood powers of logic. Propaganda works on a level that is far beyond our ability to control with the powers of reason. For example, most people will give you a metric tonne of reasons for why they vote for a particular party, but more often then not, it's because their parents also vote for that party, even if they don't talk about it.
In theory, we should have the freedom to do anything so long as we cause no harm... not every human being is capable of this even if they try. That's were the law should step in, to draw a line between right and wrong. I know it doesn't really work like that, but that's the intent. I'm trying to say that censorship has a roll to play in preventing some people from harming others. If you don't believe me, if you think that you're somehow immune to the messages being pumped into you by propaganda of various forms... then I'd recommend studying advertising for one, and secondly you should seriously try to meet some victims of atrocities... really get to know them.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Yeah, that's what they always say at the public inquiry. The truth is they would shoot anything that moves, even a three year old, because they are racist bastards blinded by hate. Americans take note: your tax dollars payed to have a 13 year old girl murdered in cold blood. The killer's maximum penalty is 3 years in prison. This is abominable and makes me ashamed to call myself an American. It will only end if we stop funding the Israeli terrorists.
I would have thought you would take the time to mention how Kurds until recently were called Mountain Turks and their identity thus denied. You would have been offended about the denial of your formal culture as well.
But instead your post sounds more like something a Turk who may or not be of Kurdish origin would say. This is akin to a janissary saying Christians were not oppressed in the Ottoman Empire, to take his authority since his parents were Christian!
> "The "European Union" is a collection of nations that are all located IN EUROPE."
Sure, 'cause, ya'know, Cyprus is right between UK and France, right?
Cyprus is an island in the Mediterranean. Europe is derived from Greek mythology and Europe is first mentioned in Herodotus's history. Cypriot Greeks belong in the European Union geographically, politically and economically, it makes sense they fit in, afterall the Greeks invented Europe.
Turkey is poor, Asian, despotic, paranoid(this recent action confirms it), and worst of all Islamic. Turkey has not been in the European Union for years, since it does not fit in. Give me a towel, hamam boy.
Turkey is poorer than Sweden which is saying alot given the population differences.
To quote a friend, 'morality is between you and God, ethics are between you and your fellow man'.
Your friend has it backwards. "Mores" pertains to the values of a group of people as a whole. "Ethos" refers to the personal values of an individual. Of course, I can't find you any decent sources to quote because every dictionary confuses the two. The best evidence I can give is to look at the roots of the two words: ethos means character; moralis means custom.
There isn't a government on earth that successfully regulates 'ethical', or wholly personal, behaviour. Many even try unsuccessfully to regulate 'morals', or to ensure that predominant individual practices are practiced by every member of society: things like obeying speed limits and saying the pledge in school. In reality, however, neither morals nor ethics are the purview of a government that respects individual liberty.
Professionals such as doctors and lawyers are entreated to abide by a code of *ethics* because (due to their intimate relationships with others and the gravity of their responsibilities) their actions cannot be realistically regulated by *moral* (inter-personal) codes.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
average age of Maronites is now 72."
Conclusions from that report, the invaded Christian communities are being destroyed by Turkish policy. As if that is not enough they are not even allowed visitors without government surveillance, to keep actions of these policy of destruction from coming to international detection.
That site he linked to is affiliated with the Turkish government.
On the Turkish Press site(http://www.turkishpress.com/) I read months ago a story about another forsnet site like that but about the Armenian genocide, it was a site that spread Armenian genocide denial(http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/) and it talked about how a Turkish university was involved with the site. Another such site is http://www.turk-yunan.gen.tr. I have lost the book mark and cannot find that article from searching.
With common sense, who besides a government could possibly bankroll such a huge network of sites, that are also available in four languages. Just because the Turk you are talking to is being an Islamic fanatic with a smile, does not make him nice.
These Turks may no longer wear turbans and such and use the Hidjra calendar but with their attitude they might as well. Not one single Turk posting in this whole story condemned their government, if one of the mealy mouthed bastards did reply with a link, because I have not read it. I guess those son of bitch Arabs and Turks, only protest the American government.
Lucky bastard, at least he knows when he will be released. Elsewhere in the world, "terrorists" get thrown in prison camps without trial and no release date. It's funny how governments around the world use the word terrorist as some sort of chewbacca defense to get everyones eyes off the real subject...
Well... try doing that in Russia several years or in Poland about 15 years ago. The "mouth-to-mouth" way works only when talking to your _proven_ close friends. There is simply no way of having a _network_ working and being "secured against wiretapping" or "free as in freedom".
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Until recently EU wasn't a union. It was an economic entity. Before that it even wasn't that but only a couple of countries in trade agreements. So what?
We know the smell of this shit all too well. That's why we do not tolerate it. That's the meaning of being human - you're supposed to learn from your mistakes, not repeat them.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
As a Turkish guy, perhaps you cannot tell us how many Kurds have been killed by Turkish military action. Including of course women and children. PKK's terrorist activities have probably not directly lead to the deaths of 30k people [I'm no expert here, but that number fits war, not terrorism]; perhaps you are lumping in the number killed in reprisals?
Either way, perhaps we should hear from a Kurdish guy too, before we take a Turkish guy's statistics at face value. Greeks, Armenians, and even Arabs might know some relevant numbers as well.
What is the difference between terrorism and a police action? It depends only on whether you agree with it.
Granted nobody chooses to be a Turk any more than anybody would choose to be Burmese or Chinese: All those countries are still very much into the pressure-cooker-melting-pot model of nationalistic racial cohesion. This is in contrast to "western" or "liberal" quality-of-life ideas about how nations should work.
The Ottoman empire was, after all, called a "prison of nations", due to how many countries/ ethnicities/ people-groups got mangled into it by Ottoman military force. But at least it was multiethnic: The modern state of Turkey has gotten just that much more insistent on forcing a nation-wide doctrine of racial uniformity on everybody.
But lets talk about the Kurds for a moment. I have a friend from a Kurdish part of Turkey, but he happens to be Assyrian--not Kurdish. He tells me that learning from big brother in Ankara, the Kurdish majority in his area have used a lot of the same ethnic cleansing tactics that the central government uses on them. There are now only Kurds left in the formerly Assyrian town of his youth.
It really is a sad thing to see how the Kurds are hated by the rest of the Middle East. It shouldn't have to be that way. But when you consider how the Kurds in return hate everyone else [which is an over-generalization, just like everyone hating them], it is equally sad and unnecessary. But it goes a long way towards explaining the chicken-and-egg problem that is racial politics.
Cases like this do have huge repercussions on what it means for the EU to try to integrate Turkey. In terms of the national culture integrating with western ideals, Russia would probably fit in better than Turkey. And hardly anyone is advocating that.
Does everybody know that the OSS project Truecrypt is maintained by a Turk, in Turkey? [http://www.truecrypt.tk/]
Does everybody wonder when he is going to be arrested--or whether he already works for Turkish intelligence?
Does everybody wonder if he wouldn't be arrested even quicker [or be even more likely working for someone] in the US or EU?
So maybe Turkey is actually freer than us about crypto laws. Or maybe not.
Yeah, Ataturk did do pretty well, grabbing a huge chunk of really nice turf for his particular ethnic group's nationalism project. It certainly ended up as a great country, though whether it is good or viable as a country can be debated elsewhere.
And it is good to see someone post with a good, clear statement of the Turkish point of view. Thanks for that!
But what I keep hoping is that someone Kurdish can post an equally clear statement. Right here, next to this one. And it would show us all just how subjective all these "facts" about "history" really are.
It's a problem we all have, certainly some of us worse than others: How much do we believe of the facts that are fed to us throughout life that build up our group identity?
He also mis-spelled "...everything else than humans."
Should read: "...everything else, like humans."
Oh well, English is obviously not his first language.
Smile!
You Turks are really pathetic you can never admit anything you do is wrong, you are like dangerous muslim children.
> The editor resigned from the ODP in 2002.
Yeah, I would too!!! Ouch!
Must-not-watch TV!
April 4th, 1984. Last night to the flicks. All war films. One very good one of a ship full of refugees being bombed somewhere in the Mediterranean. Audience much amused by shots of a great huge fat man trying to swim away with a helicopter after him, first you saw him wallowing along in the water like a porpoise, then you saw him through the helicopters gunsights, then he was full of holes and the sea round him turned pink and he sank as suddenly as though the holes had let in the water, audience shouting with laughter when he sank. then you saw a lifeboat full of children with a helicopter hovering over it. there was a middle-aged woman might have been a jewess sitting up in the bow with a little boy about three years old in her arms. little boy screaming with fright and hiding his head between her breasts as if he was trying to burrow right into her and the woman putting her arms round him and comforting him although she was blue with fright herself, all the time covering him up as much as possible as if she thought her arms could keep the bullets off him. then the helicopter planted a 20 kilo bomb in among them terrific flash and the boat went all to matchwood. then there was a wonderful shot of a child's arm going up up up right up into the air a helicopter with a camera in its nose must have followed it up and there was a lot of applause from the party seats but a woman down in the prole part of the house suddenly started kicking up a fuss and shouting they didnt oughter of showed it not in front of kids they didnt it aint right not in front of kids it aint until the police turned her turned her out i dont suppose anything happened to her nobody cares what the proles say typical prole reaction they never -- George Orwell "1984"
I have been a member of slashdot for the past 3 years. I'm not Turkish, although I would be proud to be a Turk. I'm an American Sr. Controls Engineer in pharmaceutical. Also, I am a devout Catholic not Muslim and at 61, am hardly a child. You on the other hand are very childish and that isn't a compliment.
Like totally they aren't.
FOKIN A, DOOD!
oh man I am so way cool
and that Turk is HOSED
Yeah, and it stops dead at appressive countries' borders.
Two things are important. Freedom of information and Freedom of Choice. If either of those two elements are missing then society becomes "modern". It sad that in the end times we cannot trust each other to make our own determinations based upon an educated and neutral standpoint. Taking action from our personal first hand experiences and relating and drawing information from all media streams we interact with be it internet; radio; tv; newsprint or word of mouth. It seems that as a cultural mentality we are taught to beleive what we are taught instead of being capable of interpreting information and relating to the ideas or systems contained. It is unfortunate that controling forces such as international government for their cultural beleifs will close down free expression even if distasteful. Frankly it is a case of most world government if not all to inforce systems of control which are far from human as in regards of removing the basic rights of human being open movement and free expression if not directed to cause harm to another. It is sad that governments around the world cannot seperate the intellectual from the actual. Of course i can see how if you dont like it you can be controlling enough to tell others what to believe imo that IS WRONG and totalitarian. Let people live and learn being belligerant and controling only enforces the physical prison we are all in. Let us learn to be free fair and just. Not controlling inprisoned desperate. They all have guns imo itd be faster if they just solved themselves rather then solved the world. Atleast jail tells you the truth of a conflicted world. As far as censorship in protest isn't that Judean. It's about quality access to information isn't it. How is censorship an answer to education?
poop... crap
...and you thought I didn't care...