Thanks, I wrote it:D
Adding windowblinds support for the next release.
Re:now all kde needs is a decent window manager.
on
KDE 3.0 Screenshots
·
· Score: 3, Informative
>The/single/ thing that keeps me from running kde is that cruddy excuse for a WM they/force/ you to use.
Not true, KDE's hints support come from NETWM, which is used by KDE 2.x and GNOME 1.4. Any NETWM complient window manager works with KDE 2.x and GNOME 1.4. So far, the only NETWM compliant window managers (that I know of) are kwin, sawfish, and blackbox. WindowMaker's next release should also add support.
> They (trolltech) hired the author of
blackbox, which is a good WM, and I hoped some of his wisdom might flow down to the KDE team... but alas, no sign of that yet.
Kwin is a minimal (like Blackbox), but very extensible window manager. I wrote kbox, which lets you use blackbox styles in kwin. I can tell you that in fact, much of the vector gradient code in Blackbox actually orignated in KDE. Also, some of Brad Hughes (author of Blackbox) "wisdom" would naturally flow down to KDE because he wrote the Qt3 style engine:-).
> KDE developers, please
take note: The/only/ advantage of GNOME is the
fact that you can choose your own window manager.
Again, I say, you can use any NetWM compliant window manager with KDE 2.x. Kwin is to KDE as Sawfish is to GNOME. It's just the default.
> Personally I loved the 1.X series as the application bar/switcher was seperated from the menus/menu-ing system.
You can do this in KDE 2.x too. It's just not default.
> You could have menues and virtual desktop's buttons on the top (as it should be:) ) and application switcher on the bottom (I suppose why I never saw the fuss about the dock in OS X) that would even *switch* between apps on different desktops! Cool.
You can do this in KDE 2.x.
> Now the "K" bar (or whatever it is called, I forget) is so damn crowded and the move to 2.X or so took the ability to seperate the app switcher bar from the "K" bar... major suckage and I switched to Gnome/sawfish and wanted to go back for that simple functionality.
Yeah, it's called the external taskbar in KDE 2.x.
> Did it ever reappear? I'd consider going back to KDE for its visual appeal and added abilities, but the loss of that one function was enough to make me defect.
Yup, since KDE 2.1, I think. It may have even been in KDE 2.0, don't remember.
> Oh, and someone asked about the "OS X-ness" being noticed...yes. I'd venture to call it KDEOSXXP 3.0. Rounded buttons of Aqua, flat brite menus of XP.
Maybe, but it looks even more like OSX with the liquid theme.
> Also, I a not an interface designer, but for some odd reason I want/need/wish for would be to have the max/min button on the left (a la Aqua) and the close button/box on the right of a window (a la windows/KDE).
You can do this in KDE 2.2. Button positions are fully customizable (and you can even remove ones you don't use). It's in the decoaration settings.
Well, I think that it is still MFC. TrollTech's revenue comes from it's commercial (primarily Windows) licenses. Motif frankly doesn't function well (at all without cygwin?) in Windows.
> Well, you wouldn't get far with QT without using signals, so your point isn't very relevant.
Not relevant, but your point was wrong.
> The QT api is far from elegant.
Wrong.
> I believe that's because it wasn't developed in the open.
And that has to do with what?
> Even now there's no public mailing list on which the developers discuss its development.
If you wanted to make your own version of Qt, you could. And you could have your own mailing list too.
> Also, because the licencing seems (I'm not 100% sure of this) to protect them from any threat of forking,
Wrong.
> they will never make any major changes such as ditching their language extensions.
They won't make any major changes that cause millions of code to be hard to rewrite. Their "language extentions" simply work. And it's quite portable compared to the alternatives. If you are a cross platform toolkit that has to support a variety of compilers (old compilers, non-standard compilers, working compilers), moc is a very good way to go.
> Regarding MFC, anything would be better than that.
There has been worse, but that's Qt's main competitor. The long term survival of TrollTech depends on their competition with MFC. Other things (such as gtk--), as simply not big enough in the non-X11 market to be even relavant.
> QT uses a modified version of the C++ language. You cannot compile QT code without first running it through the moc preprocessor.
Not technically. If you don't use signals/slots, you don't have to run it through moc.
> Are those alarm bells ringing for you yet?
Not really.. Qt is quite an elegant toolkit. Anyone who has used MFC, Qt, and gtk-- will usually tell you this.
That being said, libsig++ (used by gtk--), is pretty cool. However, it is not as portable as moc is. And, I don't think TrollTech will use a templated-system like libsig++ anytime soon because they want to maintain quite a bit of source comptability between minor/major versions. Breaking the tens of millions of code based upon Qt is not such a good thing unless it's easy to fix.
You do not need to buy a commercial Qt license in order to sell KDE applications. Are you saying that all the Linux distros who include KDE software are illegally doing it and that they need buy a commercial license?
Nope. They don't need to. Qt is under the GPL. As long as you make open software, you can sell it as much as you want.
What you said might have been true a few years ago, but not anyone.
You're right. However, some distros pay more attention to packaging their default desktop than the "alternatives". I'm not sure if RedHat is guilty of this, as I have not used it since 6.1 (when there was not a bunch of choices at install time).
> If any of the other distros do have advantages over RedHat (which I kind of doubt).
Yeah, many advantages. Depends on the distro tho, and what it's tailored for.
some things include:
1). better localization (i.e. asian distros for asian countries).
2). much better package managment (i.e. apt/dpkg in debian and debian based distros).
3). ease of use (well, this is subjective, but redhat is probably medium in ease of use, there are many distro's whose sole function is ease of use).
4). background of users (i.e, slackware is liked by people with more UNIX background)
5). choice of default packages (redhat ships default with GNOME, and many users prefer KDE, and (most) distros ship KDE default).
6). number of packages available (e.g. debian probably has the most)
7). security (i.e, some distros aim to be the most secure)
8). stablity (i.e, Debian/stable)
9). the newest pacakges ALL the TIME (i.e, Debian/unstable)
if you're wondering, I use debian:-)
Re:Not to start a GNOME vs KDE flame war...
on
KDE Wins 3 awards
·
· Score: 1
*cough* if I wanted to use Outlook, i'd use Outlook *cough*
Re:KDE is the environment of choice
on
KDE Wins 3 awards
·
· Score: 1
actually, it's more of a combination of windows, beos, macos, and even nextstep.
if you actually USED it, you'd realize this.
Re:Not to start a GNOME vs KDE flame war...
on
KDE Wins 3 awards
·
· Score: 1
*cough* kmail+kab+kpilot+korganizer *cough*
or *cough* Aethera *cough*
-me
kdevelop3 (a.k.a. Gideon), will support many many languages. it's sweet. too bad it's in a pretty alpha-ish condition right now (last time I tried it at least).
What version of KDE are you using?
objprelinked or not?
using kdeinit (running it from the native interface?)
was kdelibs/Qt compiled without debug support?
dma on hd enabled?
When these are done, indeed, Konqueror is as snappy than either Windows Explorer or Galeon on my Athlon 800 with 256mb ram.
khtml's network performance, imho, has been taken over by gecko, but the adding of http pipelining in kde 3.0 should turn the tables again.
They mostly shuttup with most of RMS's recent folly actions. Just look at slashdot postings in RMS's quibbles from a few years ago (especially all the Qt licensing stuff).
the LGPL/GPL have nothing to do with wether you have to contribute back to the parent project. you could, for example, fork GTK+, or make changes and simply not contribute back to GTK+.
Slashdot Mirror
Yeah, but GIF/PNG make huge screenshots.
The majority of Net users are still on 56k or below.
Thanks, I wrote it :D
Adding windowblinds support for the next release.
>The /single/ thing that keeps me from running kde is that cruddy excuse for a WM they /force/ you to use.
:-).
/only/ advantage of GNOME is the
Not true, KDE's hints support come from NETWM, which is used by KDE 2.x and GNOME 1.4. Any NETWM complient window manager works with KDE 2.x and GNOME 1.4. So far, the only NETWM compliant window managers (that I know of) are kwin, sawfish, and blackbox. WindowMaker's next release should also add support.
> They (trolltech) hired the author of
blackbox, which is a good WM, and I hoped some of his wisdom might flow down to the KDE team... but alas, no sign of that yet.
Kwin is a minimal (like Blackbox), but very extensible window manager. I wrote kbox, which lets you use blackbox styles in kwin. I can tell you that in fact, much of the vector gradient code in Blackbox actually orignated in KDE. Also, some of Brad Hughes (author of Blackbox) "wisdom" would naturally flow down to KDE because he wrote the Qt3 style engine
> KDE developers, please
take note: The
fact that you can choose your own window manager.
Again, I say, you can use any NetWM compliant window manager with KDE 2.x. Kwin is to KDE as Sawfish is to GNOME. It's just the default.
Not sure, but probably not.
I beleive, in fact, that in E17, support for KDE/GNOME are gone. This is because E17's aim is to be a "desktop shell".
> Personally I loved the 1.X series as the application bar/switcher was seperated from the menus/menu-ing system.
:) ) and application switcher on the bottom (I suppose why I never saw the fuss about the dock in OS X) that would even *switch* between apps on different desktops! Cool.
You can do this in KDE 2.x too. It's just not default.
> You could have menues and virtual desktop's buttons on the top (as it should be
You can do this in KDE 2.x.
> Now the "K" bar (or whatever it is called, I forget) is so damn crowded and the move to 2.X or so took the ability to seperate the app switcher bar from the "K" bar... major suckage and I switched to Gnome/sawfish and wanted to go back for that simple functionality.
Yeah, it's called the external taskbar in KDE 2.x.
> Did it ever reappear? I'd consider going back to KDE for its visual appeal and added abilities, but the loss of that one function was enough to make me defect.
Yup, since KDE 2.1, I think. It may have even been in KDE 2.0, don't remember.
> Oh, and someone asked about the "OS X-ness" being noticed...yes. I'd venture to call it KDEOSXXP 3.0. Rounded buttons of Aqua, flat brite menus of XP.
Maybe, but it looks even more like OSX with the liquid theme.
> Also, I a not an interface designer, but for some odd reason I want/need/wish for would be to have the max/min button on the left (a la Aqua) and the close button/box on the right of a window (a la windows/KDE).
You can do this in KDE 2.2. Button positions are fully customizable (and you can even remove ones you don't use). It's in the decoaration settings.
Well, I think that it is still MFC. TrollTech's revenue comes from it's commercial (primarily Windows) licenses. Motif frankly doesn't function well (at all without cygwin?) in Windows.
> The page only lists released versions.
Unstable
sid
Testing
woody
What are these columns for?
> Well, you wouldn't get far with QT without using signals, so your point isn't very relevant.
Not relevant, but your point was wrong.
> The QT api is far from elegant.
Wrong.
> I believe that's because it wasn't developed in the open.
And that has to do with what?
> Even now there's no public mailing list on which the developers discuss its development.
If you wanted to make your own version of Qt, you could. And you could have your own mailing list too.
> Also, because the licencing seems (I'm not 100% sure of this) to protect them from any threat of forking,
Wrong.
> they will never make any major changes such as ditching their language extensions.
They won't make any major changes that cause millions of code to be hard to rewrite. Their "language extentions" simply work. And it's quite portable compared to the alternatives. If you are a cross platform toolkit that has to support a variety of compilers (old compilers, non-standard compilers, working compilers), moc is a very good way to go.
> Regarding MFC, anything would be better than that.
There has been worse, but that's Qt's main competitor. The long term survival of TrollTech depends on their competition with MFC. Other things (such as gtk--), as simply not big enough in the non-X11 market to be even relavant.
> Of course....I can sell software that's under GPL. But then I have to provide the source-code. That is not viable for most businesses.
And you are saying that $2000 is not viable for most buisinesses? That's utterly BS, even for small shops.
> QT uses a modified version of the C++ language. You cannot compile QT code without first running it through the moc preprocessor.
Not technically. If you don't use signals/slots, you don't have to run it through moc.
> Are those alarm bells ringing for you yet?
Not really.. Qt is quite an elegant toolkit. Anyone who has used MFC, Qt, and gtk-- will usually tell you this.
That being said, libsig++ (used by gtk--), is pretty cool. However, it is not as portable as moc is. And, I don't think TrollTech will use a templated-system like libsig++ anytime soon because they want to maintain quite a bit of source comptability between minor/major versions. Breaking the tens of millions of code based upon Qt is not such a good thing unless it's easy to fix.
You were labeled a troll because you were WRONG.
You do not need to buy a commercial Qt license in order to sell KDE applications. Are you saying that all the Linux distros who include KDE software are illegally doing it and that they need buy a commercial license?
Nope. They don't need to. Qt is under the GPL. As long as you make open software, you can sell it as much as you want.
What you said might have been true a few years ago, but not anyone.
> The KDE controversy was because he saw massive license violation,
Yes, but when you are RMS, you have to word what you say carefully. Power == Responsiblity.
curiously, sid happens to be usually less broken than woody (until recently).
You're right. However, some distros pay more attention to packaging their default desktop than the "alternatives". I'm not sure if RedHat is guilty of this, as I have not used it since 6.1 (when there was not a bunch of choices at install time).
> If any of the other distros do have advantages over RedHat (which I kind of doubt).
:-)
Yeah, many advantages. Depends on the distro tho, and what it's tailored for.
some things include:
1). better localization (i.e. asian distros for asian countries).
2). much better package managment (i.e. apt/dpkg in debian and debian based distros).
3). ease of use (well, this is subjective, but redhat is probably medium in ease of use, there are many distro's whose sole function is ease of use).
4). background of users (i.e, slackware is liked by people with more UNIX background)
5). choice of default packages (redhat ships default with GNOME, and many users prefer KDE, and (most) distros ship KDE default).
6). number of packages available (e.g. debian probably has the most)
7). security (i.e, some distros aim to be the most secure)
8). stablity (i.e, Debian/stable)
9). the newest pacakges ALL the TIME (i.e, Debian/unstable)
if you're wondering, I use debian
*cough* if I wanted to use Outlook, i'd use Outlook *cough*
actually, it's more of a combination of windows, beos, macos, and even nextstep.
if you actually USED it, you'd realize this.
*cough* kmail+kab+kpilot+korganizer *cough*
or *cough* Aethera *cough*
-me
kdevelop3 (a.k.a. Gideon), will support many many languages. it's sweet. too bad it's in a pretty alpha-ish condition right now (last time I tried it at least).
What version of KDE are you using?
objprelinked or not?
using kdeinit (running it from the native interface?)
was kdelibs/Qt compiled without debug support?
dma on hd enabled?
When these are done, indeed, Konqueror is as snappy than either Windows Explorer or Galeon on my Athlon 800 with 256mb ram.
khtml's network performance, imho, has been taken over by gecko, but the adding of http pipelining in kde 3.0 should turn the tables again.
1). the kde2 file dialog was never appalling. it's more of a clone of the macos8.1-file dialog, which is/was VERY usable
They mostly shuttup with most of RMS's recent folly actions. Just look at slashdot postings in RMS's quibbles from a few years ago (especially all the Qt licensing stuff).
you could fork it and release it. that's still not contribution.
sure you can do that with GTK+.
the LGPL/GPL have nothing to do with wether you have to contribute back to the parent project. you could, for example, fork GTK+, or make changes and simply not contribute back to GTK+.
Why can't you sell it?
;-)
Qt is under the GPL.
kdelibs is under the LGPL.
Are you saying that RedHat, Mandrake, SuSE, Caldera, TurboLinux, Ximian, etc.. are breaking the law?
Or do you not have a understanding for what the GPL is?
I think the latter, personally,