... deserves this. Certainly it's the least difficult software I've ever installed on linux. When I first tried slackware years ago, I was constantly bugging people to help me with this or that, but even back then I managed to install bind on my own.
Besides, there is yet another benefit to running your own named. You're one step closer to escaping the ICANN tyranny. I'll let others argue which is worse, that or these German shenanigans.
In a related story, Satan Prince of Lies and All That is Unholy, is the father of Christianity.
Adolf Hitler is the father of lasting peace in the western hemisphere.
Ellen Degeneres is the father of Ann Heche's baby.
I thought the Osama South Park episode was bad...
on
Message from Kabul
·
· Score: 1
But then Jon Katz comes along, and shows them who really is king when it comes to half-assed, inane leftist propaganda for half-assed, inane leftist propaganda's sake. I don't know what's worse, that I was expecting an Osama with a canadian style mouth having homosex with Satan, or that Katz is still allowed to have anything to do with Slashdot. C'mon, did he manage to get you drunk and sign a 30 year contract?
Once it becomes private enterprise, even in part, that's when we start having the problems that led us to propose it in the first place. Besides, I'm not so lazy that a company has to do it for me, and bill me each month for it. Amateurs building a network for the heck of it might not be as sophisticated, but it would be more fun, and a great shield against all the corporate/bureacratic shit that causes us to find fault in the current system.
Yeh, but fiber range isn't particularly vexing, IMO. If the first links even amounted to 1 mile (with the exception of 802.11, where we might make 10 mile hops plausibly) I'd be shocked. I've never laid cable in a trench, and I don't see how even in the wildest fantasies, we'd get the permits. Much better to bug your local goverment until they let you hang wire on the utility poles, or at least it seems that way to me. Better yet, we do an end run around them, and set up wireless nodes. I'd love to see a network like that in the 100+ mile range. Wouldn't want to play quake over it though...
Actually, while I'm pretty certain you're not serious (you aren't, are you?), this doesn't sound as ridiculous to me as it might to others. All except for the ATM part, gigabit ethernet makes much more sense to me. What truly keeps this from happening? We can't dig trenches for cables, nor are we even likely to get access to utility poles (funny my tax dollars puts them up, but I'm not allowed to use them)... but wireless doesn't seem out of the question.
Either that, or someone needs to start working on quantum entanglement ethernet equipment.
The reality is, though, that a package must be packed to withstand 2 hours in a 250 ton hydraulic press. This is why UPS is the preferred shipping agent of people who have to mail titanium alloy battle grade armor internationally.
Re:Already discussed stupid hd buses w/ ATA133 sto
on
Firewire and Linux?
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· Score: 1
Ever heard of sarcasm?
Re:Already discussed stupid hd buses w/ ATA133 sto
on
Firewire and Linux?
·
· Score: 1
A decent (not top end) scsi card costs no more than the firewire card. Haven't priced drives in awhile, but external enclosures can be picked up cheap.
My biggest problem with using firewire for storage is that doing so consumes most/all the bandwidth that might be better used for digital video. It's like those fools who design cd-r drives for USB (the USB comment was sarcastic, sorry I didn't make it clear). Lord knows that I don't want buffer underruns because I typed and moved the mouse at the same time I was burning a disc. Storage (with the possible exception of 1.44 floppy drives) on USB is retarded. USB was meant so that I could connect my kb/mouse/joystick/little doodads all at the same time without any problems. And people misuse it.
I think the same thing is ocurring with firewire right now. A digital video camera, maybe a webcam (this would rock), video decks, etc... these are the things that firewire was meant for, and still what it's best used for. I don't think it should be wasted on anything else, unless you are 100% certain that you'll never mess with this stuff. I don't have the cash for a digicamcorder right now, but I sure won't rule out wanting to play with one in a year or two's time.
As for my comments on the ata133 story, I'll briefly summarize, since they are slightly relevant. You should invest in a decent network for your multiple PC's, if you haven't already. At that point, external is not such a big deal, and hot swappability less so. Build a cheap Fibre Channel over copper array. This will be the standard for corporations for years to come, and because of that we can get nice cheap toys as handmedowns. Give everyone on the network 10-20 gigs as a share on the server, and expand the array as necessary. This thing will take up to 128 devices without getting fancy, doesn't mean using expensive fibre cables, and the cheap hard drives will only get bigger. A 64bit controller can be had well under $50 on ebay, well under $100 on pricewatch. Uses cat5 stp. Cheap converters are available at http://master-www.cinonic.com:8080/. Hard drives as big as 60 gigs are available for under $100, well within your price range I think. Even smaller drives are useful, raided together into one large, fault tolerant, fast volume. IDE is dead as far as I'm concerned.
Already discussed stupid hd buses w/ ATA133 story
on
Firewire and Linux?
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
If you want simple, stupid, not-so-cheap but CompUSA style mathematics makes it look that way, go get a USB hard drive.
Really.
I think firewire is cool as hell, but not for this application. It's got bandwidth galore, to move video data back and forth, but this doesn't translate to "bandwidth galore for storage". If you have a digital camcorder, I wholeheartedly recommend adding a pci 1384 card to your box. But it's not something that I think is well suited to hard drives.
Hot plugability is an issue? How many times will you actually use this? You don't sound like you're sharing it with 20 different pc's, for instance. And if you're an uptime freak, be careful plugging in the PCI card... it'll work, but I always power mine down first. If speed isn't an issue, what's wrong with IDE? Or even external scsi? A decent scsi card, and external drive are no more expensive than the 1384 drives I've seen. There are plenty of dumb/slow/external drive solutions, and in every case they're cheaper than firewire.
If you just want to use firewire, use it for what it's good at. Desktop video. You'll be happy, won't be wasting money, or posting stupid "Ask Slashdot" questions.
You'd suprised what I can make in my garage, in my spare time. Seriously, if I'm ever not broke (granted, it's a big if), I'm building my own machine shop. Up to and including my own hydraulic press... gotta have something to put my custom dies in, eh? If the plans are available for a A. Engine... it might not be something I'd complete, but I'd sure like to try. Writing a TCP/IP stack though, will sure be a bitch.
...for me to get my own machine shop. Even a replica Analytical Engine would round out my computer collection quite nicely. Wonder how I'd network it though...
The officials that kept postponing the emmy awards. Self-important people that believe they have to be at the center of terrorist plans, because _everyone_ knows how important they are.
Maybe we need 4 or 5 independent "root" zones, completely autonomous from each other, if this is such a real problem. Sure, you'd wake up one morning and dotcom/net/org might not work, but quite a few others would. If we did that though, ICANN couldn't remain the heavy-handed tyrant that they are, now could they? With all these liberal definitions of terrorism floating around, it might be possible to say with a straight face, that the only dns terrorists out there sit on the board of ICANN.
Funny you should mention Nader and XBox in the same sentence. He's beeen complaining to anyone that will listen about the XBox (and rightfully so, imo). M$ could release the video game/application, that God used to create the universe, for the XBox, and I'm still afraid I'd have to shun it on general principles. Nothing good can come of XBox, or anything else M$ makes. Besides, XBox won't have the new Zelda game...
Infidel !!! Heathen !!! Blasphemer !!! Everyone knows that the Amiga was the best 68k computer ever produced, with the Atari ST a close runner-up.
*grin*
Truthfully, I like them all. I have all the consumer class 68k computers, and some of the workstation class (still need a Sun/3 and Apollo). Now though, slashdot is persuading me to find something 4004 based... wonder what ASM is like on that thing. "You have a total of two 4bit acumulators, and a 2bit index register. Computing has never been this fast!"
Hmm. This is true to some extent. The systems architect that builds your enterprise storage solution had better do better than this, or else he should be fired. But how many friends of yours have fried a hard disk and lost everything? RAID will save them from this. It might not save them when they overwrite their resume with a blank document, where concievably backups might give them some recovery avenue, but then nothing is perfect. Besides, for that part of it, maybe a filesystem itself is a better method for this sort of thing. I've read about the concept before, though a name for it eludes me at the moment. Basically, each time you save a document, it keeps the last 2 or 3 versions on file, normally hidden to the user, until he needs to recover. In the past, this was hard on storage space... but hey, I am talking a fibre channel raid array here. With the direction that hd size is going, it won't be another 2 years before I can afford a quarter terabyte of raid 5 FC. Space isn't a problem anymore.
Lord forbid I suggest AOL Joe to evolve. My post was aimed that those marginally intelligent. Even you yourself qualify. 3 weeks ago, when slashdot had their "ultimate pc design" story (forget which site it was from) the morons chose ata. Why? I honestly don't know. For power users, this is a very valid choice, and I believe even a few people of the AOL mentality might benefit from it, provided that someone else in the house doesn't mind tossing a few gigs of network shares their way. It's a very elegant solution.
I'm not good with html, so forgive me, these are going to be text.
$35 for PCI fibre channel controller, no bids, no reserve. (This might be a bit low, but certainly you'd get yours for under $75. How much did you pay for your addon ata100 controller?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte m& item=1295764842
$39 for 9 gig fibre channel drive, on pricewatch... couldn't find a url. Look it up if you don't believe me. (18 gigger hovering around $90, both prices lower on ebay)
Cheap cat5 cabling system, no need for fiber optics.
http://master-www.cinonic.com:8080/
Let's go over the basics again. 200mps without anything fancy like switches. Linux compatibility (Windows XP? I almost pissed my pants, that was so hilarious). 128 devices in a single loop. Prices comparable to all but the worst consumer junk. Easily raidable (like I said earlier, don't even worry about hardware raid, software raid is gonna get you close to the throughput limit, even scsi can't touch it). Easy raid means never backing up, ever again. Never losing files to a crashed HD. I tell you, if grandma lives with ya, I might not give her her own FC raid, but she'd get a tiny scsi hard drive, and be taught to use her home directory on the server... most she'd ever lose is her default install of *giggle* XP. Plus, since corporate SANs are about 3-5 years ahead of us, within a year, it won't be hand-me-down 9 and 18 giggers, but 30-60 gigs in the cheap range. And instead of replacing your 9 gig drives, they will simply add to the storage.
Now, tell me again, why we shouldn't be using this. Really. Come up with a coherent argument, and win a free 8 inch floppy disc! (J/K I wish I had some though)
And to the dumbass that moderated me as flamebait on the original, my post means something very different if you read it as english, instead of your native tongue, dumbfuckinese.
Since you didn't read my post very well, I'll point out that it's possible to use cheap cat5 cabling. No, they aren't kilometers in length. Yes, people should have more than one drive, preferably 3, making raid 5 possible. Right there, no more need for tape backups and what not. I've read up on this very carefully, making sure that it's possible for me to undertake. I do have a small server here at home, and I'm hardly braindead. I just don't like cheap consumer junk like you apparently do. IDE? *LOL* You might have made a case for SCSI, but not IDE.
Have you actively priced this? Cheap access points are in the sub- $100 on pricewatch. PCMCIA cards are down to half that. As a hobbyist, this is well within your reach... as an IT guy for some business or another, if the price is stopping you, I'd bail out now, they're going under. Businesses should see something as cheap when it's still 20 times too expensive for me to buy/consider.
And don't try to tell me that you need more than one cardbus nic... that's BS too. Certainly 802.11 is cool for networking your laptop so you can surf while watching TV in the living room, or even to give the PDA some real connectivity. But if you're saying it's too expensive to network your house with it, the time you spent whining was enough to wire it properly in cat5... the way things oughtta be done.
As cheap as I've seen fibre channel controllers on ebay, or even the wholesale outlets, you _MUST_ be nearly braindead to continue to go with IDE. I don't care how they've managed to eke a little more performance out of it...
Seriously, it wasn't 6 months ago that slashdot itself was exalting cheap fc cabling systems ( http://master-www.cinonic.com:8080/ ). This, wholesale $25 nine gig drives (small enough that they're useless to corporate SANs, maybe up to 30 or so gigs for people like us), and a maximum device limit of 128 drives says it all. 200mps, and even with software raid, you'll be able to approach that speed. Think about it. Raid 5, no more hd crashes that wipe you out. Speedier than all but the most exotic scsi setups. You can spend $50 week, and incrementally add storage. Honest to god, we should be shunning hardware manufacturers that continue to feed us this slop called ata133. They're the same ones to blame for marginallizing scsi, and making it more expensive than it needs to be. Don't let them do the same thing this time around.
Moderators, I dare you to mark this as flamebait or trolling...
Slashdot Mirror
... deserves this. Certainly it's the least difficult software I've ever installed on linux. When I first tried slackware years ago, I was constantly bugging people to help me with this or that, but even back then I managed to install bind on my own.
Besides, there is yet another benefit to running your own named. You're one step closer to escaping the ICANN tyranny. I'll let others argue which is worse, that or these German shenanigans.
When you anti-linux-zealot-zealots try to be deriding and/or sarcastic, you really, really, are modded down.
:P
Actually, I was serious in a way. Well, maybe not.
In a related story, Satan Prince of Lies and All That is Unholy, is the father of Christianity.
Adolf Hitler is the father of lasting peace in the western hemisphere.
Ellen Degeneres is the father of Ann Heche's baby.
But then Jon Katz comes along, and shows them who really is king when it comes to half-assed, inane leftist propaganda for half-assed, inane leftist propaganda's sake. I don't know what's worse, that I was expecting an Osama with a canadian style mouth having homosex with Satan, or that Katz is still allowed to have anything to do with Slashdot. C'mon, did he manage to get you drunk and sign a 30 year contract?
Once it becomes private enterprise, even in part, that's when we start having the problems that led us to propose it in the first place. Besides, I'm not so lazy that a company has to do it for me, and bill me each month for it. Amateurs building a network for the heck of it might not be as sophisticated, but it would be more fun, and a great shield against all the corporate/bureacratic shit that causes us to find fault in the current system.
Yeh, but fiber range isn't particularly vexing, IMO. If the first links even amounted to 1 mile (with the exception of 802.11, where we might make 10 mile hops plausibly) I'd be shocked. I've never laid cable in a trench, and I don't see how even in the wildest fantasies, we'd get the permits. Much better to bug your local goverment until they let you hang wire on the utility poles, or at least it seems that way to me. Better yet, we do an end run around them, and set up wireless nodes. I'd love to see a network like that in the 100+ mile range. Wouldn't want to play quake over it though...
Actually, while I'm pretty certain you're not serious (you aren't, are you?), this doesn't sound as ridiculous to me as it might to others. All except for the ATM part, gigabit ethernet makes much more sense to me. What truly keeps this from happening? We can't dig trenches for cables, nor are we even likely to get access to utility poles (funny my tax dollars puts them up, but I'm not allowed to use them)... but wireless doesn't seem out of the question.
Either that, or someone needs to start working on quantum entanglement ethernet equipment.
I am.
The reality is, though, that a package must be packed to withstand 2 hours in a 250 ton hydraulic press. This is why UPS is the preferred shipping agent of people who have to mail titanium alloy battle grade armor internationally.
Ever heard of sarcasm?
A decent (not top end) scsi card costs no more than the firewire card. Haven't priced drives in awhile, but external enclosures can be picked up cheap.
My biggest problem with using firewire for storage is that doing so consumes most/all the bandwidth that might be better used for digital video. It's like those fools who design cd-r drives for USB (the USB comment was sarcastic, sorry I didn't make it clear). Lord knows that I don't want buffer underruns because I typed and moved the mouse at the same time I was burning a disc. Storage (with the possible exception of 1.44 floppy drives) on USB is retarded. USB was meant so that I could connect my kb/mouse/joystick/little doodads all at the same time without any problems. And people misuse it.
I think the same thing is ocurring with firewire right now. A digital video camera, maybe a webcam (this would rock), video decks, etc... these are the things that firewire was meant for, and still what it's best used for. I don't think it should be wasted on anything else, unless you are 100% certain that you'll never mess with this stuff. I don't have the cash for a digicamcorder right now, but I sure won't rule out wanting to play with one in a year or two's time.
As for my comments on the ata133 story, I'll briefly summarize, since they are slightly relevant. You should invest in a decent network for your multiple PC's, if you haven't already. At that point, external is not such a big deal, and hot swappability less so. Build a cheap Fibre Channel over copper array. This will be the standard for corporations for years to come, and because of that we can get nice cheap toys as handmedowns. Give everyone on the network 10-20 gigs as a share on the server, and expand the array as necessary. This thing will take up to 128 devices without getting fancy, doesn't mean using expensive fibre cables, and the cheap hard drives will only get bigger. A 64bit controller can be had well under $50 on ebay, well under $100 on pricewatch. Uses cat5 stp. Cheap converters are available at http://master-www.cinonic.com:8080/. Hard drives as big as 60 gigs are available for under $100, well within your price range I think. Even smaller drives are useful, raided together into one large, fault tolerant, fast volume. IDE is dead as far as I'm concerned.
If you want simple, stupid, not-so-cheap but CompUSA style mathematics makes it look that way, go get a USB hard drive.
Really.
I think firewire is cool as hell, but not for this application. It's got bandwidth galore, to move video data back and forth, but this doesn't translate to "bandwidth galore for storage". If you have a digital camcorder, I wholeheartedly recommend adding a pci 1384 card to your box. But it's not something that I think is well suited to hard drives.
Hot plugability is an issue? How many times will you actually use this? You don't sound like you're sharing it with 20 different pc's, for instance. And if you're an uptime freak, be careful plugging in the PCI card... it'll work, but I always power mine down first. If speed isn't an issue, what's wrong with IDE? Or even external scsi? A decent scsi card, and external drive are no more expensive than the 1384 drives I've seen. There are plenty of dumb/slow/external drive solutions, and in every case they're cheaper than firewire.
If you just want to use firewire, use it for what it's good at. Desktop video. You'll be happy, won't be wasting money, or posting stupid "Ask Slashdot" questions.
You'd suprised what I can make in my garage, in my spare time. Seriously, if I'm ever not broke (granted, it's a big if), I'm building my own machine shop. Up to and including my own hydraulic press... gotta have something to put my custom dies in, eh? If the plans are available for a A. Engine... it might not be something I'd complete, but I'd sure like to try. Writing a TCP/IP stack though, will sure be a bitch.
...for me to get my own machine shop. Even a replica Analytical Engine would round out my computer collection quite nicely. Wonder how I'd network it though...
Sun might be a competitor, but SGI has been gone a long time, at least business wise.
The officials that kept postponing the emmy awards. Self-important people that believe they have to be at the center of terrorist plans, because _everyone_ knows how important they are.
Maybe we need 4 or 5 independent "root" zones, completely autonomous from each other, if this is such a real problem. Sure, you'd wake up one morning and dotcom/net/org might not work, but quite a few others would. If we did that though, ICANN couldn't remain the heavy-handed tyrant that they are, now could they? With all these liberal definitions of terrorism floating around, it might be possible to say with a straight face, that the only dns terrorists out there sit on the board of ICANN.
And for a PPC Amiga, you'd probably murder me. I'd allow you to, if I got to see a glimpse of it before the life faded from my eyes....
Funny you should mention Nader and XBox in the same sentence. He's beeen complaining to anyone that will listen about the XBox (and rightfully so, imo). M$ could release the video game/application, that God used to create the universe, for the XBox, and I'm still afraid I'd have to shun it on general principles. Nothing good can come of XBox, or anything else M$ makes. Besides, XBox won't have the new Zelda game...
Infidel !!! Heathen !!! Blasphemer !!! Everyone knows that the Amiga was the best 68k computer ever produced, with the Atari ST a close runner-up.
*grin*
Truthfully, I like them all. I have all the consumer class 68k computers, and some of the workstation class (still need a Sun/3 and Apollo). Now though, slashdot is persuading me to find something 4004 based... wonder what ASM is like on that thing. "You have a total of two 4bit acumulators, and a 2bit index register. Computing has never been this fast!"
Hmm. This is true to some extent. The systems architect that builds your enterprise storage solution had better do better than this, or else he should be fired. But how many friends of yours have fried a hard disk and lost everything? RAID will save them from this. It might not save them when they overwrite their resume with a blank document, where concievably backups might give them some recovery avenue, but then nothing is perfect. Besides, for that part of it, maybe a filesystem itself is a better method for this sort of thing. I've read about the concept before, though a name for it eludes me at the moment. Basically, each time you save a document, it keeps the last 2 or 3 versions on file, normally hidden to the user, until he needs to recover. In the past, this was hard on storage space... but hey, I am talking a fibre channel raid array here. With the direction that hd size is going, it won't be another 2 years before I can afford a quarter terabyte of raid 5 FC. Space isn't a problem anymore.
Lord forbid I suggest AOL Joe to evolve. My post was aimed that those marginally intelligent. Even you yourself qualify. 3 weeks ago, when slashdot had their "ultimate pc design" story (forget which site it was from) the morons chose ata. Why? I honestly don't know. For power users, this is a very valid choice, and I believe even a few people of the AOL mentality might benefit from it, provided that someone else in the house doesn't mind tossing a few gigs of network shares their way. It's a very elegant solution.
I'm not good with html, so forgive me, these are going to be text.
e m& item=1295764842
$35 for PCI fibre channel controller, no bids, no reserve. (This might be a bit low, but certainly you'd get yours for under $75. How much did you pay for your addon ata100 controller?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt
$39 for 9 gig fibre channel drive, on pricewatch... couldn't find a url. Look it up if you don't believe me. (18 gigger hovering around $90, both prices lower on ebay)
Cheap cat5 cabling system, no need for fiber optics.
http://master-www.cinonic.com:8080/
Let's go over the basics again. 200mps without anything fancy like switches. Linux compatibility (Windows XP? I almost pissed my pants, that was so hilarious). 128 devices in a single loop. Prices comparable to all but the worst consumer junk. Easily raidable (like I said earlier, don't even worry about hardware raid, software raid is gonna get you close to the throughput limit, even scsi can't touch it). Easy raid means never backing up, ever again. Never losing files to a crashed HD. I tell you, if grandma lives with ya, I might not give her her own FC raid, but she'd get a tiny scsi hard drive, and be taught to use her home directory on the server... most she'd ever lose is her default install of *giggle* XP. Plus, since corporate SANs are about 3-5 years ahead of us, within a year, it won't be hand-me-down 9 and 18 giggers, but 30-60 gigs in the cheap range. And instead of replacing your 9 gig drives, they will simply add to the storage.
Now, tell me again, why we shouldn't be using this. Really. Come up with a coherent argument, and win a free 8 inch floppy disc! (J/K I wish I had some though)
And to the dumbass that moderated me as flamebait on the original, my post means something very different if you read it as english, instead of your native tongue, dumbfuckinese.
You probably like USB hard drives too.
Since you didn't read my post very well, I'll point out that it's possible to use cheap cat5 cabling. No, they aren't kilometers in length. Yes, people should have more than one drive, preferably 3, making raid 5 possible. Right there, no more need for tape backups and what not. I've read up on this very carefully, making sure that it's possible for me to undertake. I do have a small server here at home, and I'm hardly braindead. I just don't like cheap consumer junk like you apparently do. IDE? *LOL* You might have made a case for SCSI, but not IDE.
Have you actively priced this? Cheap access points are in the sub- $100 on pricewatch. PCMCIA cards are down to half that. As a hobbyist, this is well within your reach... as an IT guy for some business or another, if the price is stopping you, I'd bail out now, they're going under. Businesses should see something as cheap when it's still 20 times too expensive for me to buy/consider.
And don't try to tell me that you need more than one cardbus nic... that's BS too. Certainly 802.11 is cool for networking your laptop so you can surf while watching TV in the living room, or even to give the PDA some real connectivity. But if you're saying it's too expensive to network your house with it, the time you spent whining was enough to wire it properly in cat5... the way things oughtta be done.
As cheap as I've seen fibre channel controllers on ebay, or even the wholesale outlets, you _MUST_ be nearly braindead to continue to go with IDE. I don't care how they've managed to eke a little more performance out of it...
Seriously, it wasn't 6 months ago that slashdot itself was exalting cheap fc cabling systems ( http://master-www.cinonic.com:8080/ ). This, wholesale $25 nine gig drives (small enough that they're useless to corporate SANs, maybe up to 30 or so gigs for people like us), and a maximum device limit of 128 drives says it all. 200mps, and even with software raid, you'll be able to approach that speed. Think about it. Raid 5, no more hd crashes that wipe you out. Speedier than all but the most exotic scsi setups. You can spend $50 week, and incrementally add storage. Honest to god, we should be shunning hardware manufacturers that continue to feed us this slop called ata133. They're the same ones to blame for marginallizing scsi, and making it more expensive than it needs to be. Don't let them do the same thing this time around.
Moderators, I dare you to mark this as flamebait or trolling...