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Message from Kabul
When his message came, the Taliban had just fled, Northern Alliance soldiers had taken over his village, and everybody rushed to barbers to cut off their beards and to nearby holes and hiding spots to dig up their Walkmen, VCRs, TVs, CD players, and -- in Junis's case -- his ancient Commodore, one of four in the village. Cafes had popped up all over, with impromptu dances and parties everywhere.
Junis's e-mail -- routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London -- was a reminder that there are civil liberties, and then there are civil liberties. Computers had been banned under penalty of death by the Taliban (except for the Taliban themselves), along with music and TV. Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired. He was genial and obsessed with American culture. He loved martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap. He was perhaps the Taliban's prime kind of target. (Now he's furiously trying to download movies he's missed and is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot.)
"I could still see the dust of the pick-up trucks carrying the Taliban out of my village," he wrote, "and some friends and I went and dug up the boards of a chicken coop where I had hid the computer. They might have beaten or killed us if they'd found it. It was forbidden, although they used computers all of the time." He claims American commandos are skulking around dressed as Northern Alliance tribesmen.
Junis describes life under the Taliban as brutal, terrifying and profoundly boring. What the people in his town -- especially the kids -- missed most was music, posters of Indian and American movie stars (he'd kept his own decaying poster of Madonna), and American TV. Junis missed the fast-changing Web and sees, he says, that he has fallen "forever behind," and that programming is more complex than ever. But at least "Baywatch," which everyone in his town acutely missed, is back, and there's already a lot of talk about "Survivor." Junis predicts "Temptation Island" will be the number one show in Afghanistan within a month.
If the world needed another demonstration of America's most powerful weapon -- not bombs or special forces but pop culture -- it got it again this week. People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing, but people's love for American techno-toys, TV shows, music and movies is breathaking. Watching TV pictures of tribesman on horseback, it's easy to forget that technology reached deep into this culture as well. Junis says phone service around Kabul remains spotty, but reporters, U.N. workers and foreign soldiers are wiring up. He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.
There are many computers in Afghanistan, Junis said, many in clusters in cities like Kabul and Kandahar (news reports have frequently mentioned that Bin-Laden's organization used both e-mail and encrypted files to communicate). Computer geeks are already hooking up with one another all over the country; Junis isn't the only Afghan e-mailing these days. He says other coders and gamers hid their PC's as well. Meanwhile, he's especially eager to get his hands on the Apple iPod, and has been drooling over the Apple website site since he got back online. And some things, of course, never change. "I thought they were going to get Microsoft," he wrote. "I guess not."
A decade ago, when East Berlin teenagers stormed the Wall and crossed over into West Berlin, the first thing many of them did was rush to music stores to buy tapes and CD's they'd been secretly, illegally listening to for years.
The Taliban worked to create the antithesis of the American world, one without technology, computing, the Net, music, or any vestige of popular culture (not to mention women's rights, elections, a free press or any religion except fundamentalist Islam. Junis said people in his town risked their lives repeatedly, not to fight the Taliban, but to try and listen to CD's and watch videos smuggled in from Pakistan, watched in the dark under blankets and in cellars. It seems the outcome was inevitable.
Technology is part of evolution. You cannot stop, confine, or reverse technology. This is something the taliban has no chance of doing.
--
FearLinux.com
sounds odd that for such oppressed people, this guy could get at a computer so fast... Sounds like this oppression view thing is a little one sided... Was the taliban really that oppressive? or are the western media outlets just trying to make them look just that little bit more evil?
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
He's trying to download movies on a Commodore?
http://saveie6.com/
So let me get this straight - your friend was catching up with movies on a Commodore?
Still, interesting story.
It's about time the Afghan's can make their own decisions in peace. I hope they can form a democratic type government and live in peace. :-)
Daisy cutters and cluster bombs are kinda unfriendly. Not exactly "surgical" either..
.. that is too cruel.
But Baywatch
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
How can this Afghani geek afford an Ipod? When did DSL/broadband get into Kabul?
This story sounds fishy, but then it is Tuesday.
Does anyone else thing that this sounds an awful lot like someone got a fake email? A hoax, a sham, an untruth? It just seems too... too... too much like what we geeks would want to hear.
I reckon one of those could play movies.
Best Slashdot Co
What have you been smoking? Whore
Has he gotten spammed yet?
American culture is like junk food. Almost everybody really likes it but they feel bad for liking it. They know they should choose something that's better for them but they can't help it.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Does John make this stuff up? I have read many of his features and a lot of them seem to have a taste of fiction of sorts. I am sure it just comes from the slight embelishmnet he places on his writings but it just makes you wonder.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
They open the theaters, people get their TVs and computers back. It's good.
But the women aren't allowed in the theater, they can't function in public, and they still aren't allowed to see doctors. It's not that removing the Taliban is a bad thing, but for a significant part of the population, the current status really hasn't gotten any better.
Food for thought, and it makes me thankful that I was born in the US and have the ability to say such things...
What are the odds that the copy of Independence Day is pirated.
http://www.windmeadow.com/
Of course, as nice as this sounds, the story is a little strange - I was under the impression there were almost no remaining international phone lines and that electricity was probably out in many of these areas, so I am a bit suspicious. But what do I know, maybe he has a generator and maybe the international phone lines are back up. Also the line about trying to download movies is definitely suspicious. At 9600 baud perhaps? OK, give them the benefit of the doubt, 28.8k. Doesn't sound too believable to me.
So I think this submission is either a bit of a hoax or a bit exaggerated, but it still is a nice sentiment even if the specifics are not true. And hopefully there is a guy somewhere in Afghanistan digging up his old Commodore.
Welcome Back!
Apart from the fact that he's supposedly saying that he's "downloading movies" on a commodore (ie a machine with little or no hard drive and no processing power to decode div-x's, with modems that are so antiquated that even downloading a 20meg divx would probably take a few weeks... no wonder he's furious...), it all sounds... I don't know... fake is probably the word.
As for digging up all the forbidden stuff as soon while they could still see the dust from the trucks of the talibans, that is just plain unbelievable. I doubt anyone who's just lived under such an oppressive regime would take that risk. What if they forgot something and drive back up to get it? Just because the trucks have driven away doesn't mean they're gone for good.
I would think that people living under oppressive regimes develop a sort of natural paranoia as a survival mechanism... my father who lived most of his life in communist Romania still has it twenty years after fleeing the country... I find it surprising that afghans would lose it in minutes...
Daniel
for the very good outlook of what is going on over there. It's nice to see that they can pick up their lives right away.
So, in the end it will be America's lust for half-naked teen nymphettes (I'm referring to Brittney Spears, Christina Agulera and the like -- not pr0n) that will promote the freedom of information and save us all from terrorism?
The people of Afghanistan don't have televisions, they don't have music, and they don't have telephones... but they have e-mail access one day after the Northern Alliance "liberates" the city? And, coincidentally, he likes Open Source and Slashdot? What???
I'm sorry, but I just can't honestly believe this story to be true without some kind of third-party verification. And even then, I'd still be skeptical. It just doesn't sound legit to me...
So the top three TV shows mentioned in the story ("acutely missed" is the phrase connected to one of them) are Baywatch, Survivor, and Temptation Island?
Three shows based on the concept of manly men frolicking with scantily-clad women, and in the latter two, premised on the assumption that all humans are conniving backstabbers, and that relationships cannot last in the face of lust, respectively.
And we're trying to convince the Middle East that America is a just and moral nation? Ya ha ha, whatever.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Does anyone else smell hoax? Propaganda?
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
You failed to ask the most important questions! ;)
What is the perception of the afghan's people about the US intervention? Do they feel that the sacrifice of innocents (accidents/mistakes on US forces part, but none less deadly) justify their new freedom? Do they feel that westerners should continue to use force to try to democratize Afghanistan? Or should the coalition now leave from their point of view?
I saw on TV an Afghan who lost 8 members of his family to US bombs. Yet, he had one message for the US forces: aim better. He did not asked to stop. Others though were very angry against the US after loosing some family member.
I want to know what the people of Afghanistan wants. I see some demonstrations in western countries asking for the bombings to stop. I say, that we might at least hear what the Afghan have to say. If they believe that the bombings are worthwhile, who are we to ask to stop these actions?
BTW, have you some websites/forums to suggest where we could directly interact with Afghanistan people? I would really like to have a few exchanges with some of them.
Remember the year 2000? They promised us flying cars. They delivered the PT Cruiser...
I hope that things don't move too fast in Afghanistan. It's easy to sit here in the west and think this is all fine and dandy, but if this all gets pushed in too fast it could end up being culture shock to a lot of people, and potentially generate more fundamentalist extremists (who would of course be anti-american). Afghanistan needs to change, but it needs to do it slowly. It needs to find that middle ground that most of the people will find socially acceptable.
For better or for worse, this once again proves that once Pandora's box is open you can't shut it, no matter how hard you try.
Having lived in Africa, I've seen firsthand how quickly, frighteningly so, things can change during a coup d'etat. People whose constraints have been mostly external for some time, lose control very quickly when those constraints are lifted, but within a few days things settle down and they regain their internal control/balance.
Perhaps we can get this guy from kabul to answer some questions for us?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What's the deal with Baywatch? It seems to be extremely popular outside the United States, even though it gets mediocre ratings in the United States.
Good thing I don't give a damn about karma.
Best Slashdot Co
a few things that REALLY make me think that Katz either made this crap up, or is the victim of a VERY poorly fabricated hoax:
1 - I know it's been said already, but it bears repeating...how does one download MOVIES on an "ancient commodore"? And furthermore, how does one play them?
2 - When you're living in Afghanistan, who do you call to get internet access?
3 - If the guy's using that "ancient commodore", what would prompt him to salivate over an IPod? First of all, it's doubtful that he would have ever acquired even a single MP3 file, let alone enough to fill an IPod. Oh, and Commodores didn't have firewire back in my day. Seems like the guy would be more likely to lust after a 2-year old Athlon system and a broadband connection rather than an IPod.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed this pile of absolute rubbish. Katz should be sent over to Kabul to investigate the situation himself.
Didn't the Taliban STRICTLY regulate technology? The Taliban thought the Internet was evil, after all, and outlawed it. So I find it HIGHLY suspicious that someone managed to start up an ISP in the middle of this war, and that someone else out there is more concerned about getting on Slashdot than staying alive and eating, which is what 99% of the Afghani population is probably concerned with.
This was bullshit. Sorry, but it *can't* be legit.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Perhaps this "Afghani" sent you a picture he got, too, right? It looks like this, right?
I tell my mother when she gets emails like the one you have, katz, is to first check snopes, then check the local news (if it isn't on the news, then it isn't real, usually).
Think about it. A computer geek in afghanastan finally gets his computer (commodore, mind you), and whats one of the first people he emails? Jon Katz? Hmmm....
Sorry, but I'm waaay to skeptic for this (and I'm religious...)
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Just recently there was this posting on globalization and I posted that /. means globalization, since it brings people from around the world together. Now I read that /. story on this guy from Afghanistan, while a few minutes away, airlifters start for their 24h trip to bring food to Afghanistan.
I'd never really thought of it before seeing this post, but the one common factor you always hear small town residents use to describe their lives is "Everyone Knows Everyone." I'm probably being a pollyana here, but I believe that the "Global Village" is doing the same thing, helping people throughout the world understand (and hopefully get along) with each other.
I had a grandfather who went to West Point and served with distinction in the U.S. Army in WWII. A good, honorable man in many ways, but also a bigot down to his bones. I can't help but wonder what sort of man he'dve been if he could've clicked on a website growing up and learned how people live in Saudi Arabia or Tokyo or even just the "wrong side of the tracks" in his hometown.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Despite the many technical questions this has already raised (movies on ancient computers). I see that this is a fine example for how a government can not retain control of a people if it is not representing their interests. It is especially helpful to remember this anytime I see the US Gov leaders doing things I didn't want them to do when I voted. People will be free, and they can have what they want once they work out what that is and seek it as a group.
Wester/US music was never illegal in the GDR.
You couldn't buy it in stores, but there were a lots of other things you couldn't buy in stores, sometimes even toilet paper.
Pupils where playing Western music on school excursions and no teachers objected.
It was in the 60 illegal to watch Western TV but this was stopped in the 70ies.
However admitting it openly later might have called on the STASI, but only hardcore communists would not watch Western TV.
And this was mainly because of the NEWS and INFORMATION and not entertainment crap.
In this respect, I suppose your stuff here would have been allowed to read in the GDR.
I got an e-mail from Timmy-bin Hashareef. He has cancer of the appendix. It said for every time you forwarded his e-mail, the Afghanistan chapter of the American Appendix Society would donate little Timmy 3 cents and a camel. It also said that if you didn't forward the e-mail, you would get beaten by the Taliban. SEND OUT THE WORD KATZ! THIS IS 274% TRUE!
haha I want a pink slip with Katz's name on it for Christmas.
Chaos, Mayhem, and Destruction: Not
Well, it could be.
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
A decade ago, when East Berlin teenagers stormed the Wall and crossed over into West Berlin, the first thing many of them did was rush to music stores to buy tapes and CD's they'd been secretly, illegally listening to for years. Oh, ya right! Thats like saying napster fans rushed to buy cds in stores once the cd was officially released, even though they had been listening to it 'illegally' for weeks before... HA!
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
Sorry... Just wanted to say "Jalalabad!" :-D
It really comes down to this. This email is suspect because it is written in a very american perspective and anybody who has traveled extensively outside of the US knows that most of the world doesn't work or think this way. I feel this person would be just simply unable to gain the ideology expressed here. But on the other hand, I could be wrong.... -Sean
When his message came, the Taliban had just fled, Northern Alliance soldiers had taken over his village, and everybody rushed to barbers to cut off their beards and to nearby holes and hiding spots to dig up their Walkmen, VCRs, TVs, CD players, and -- in Junis's case -- his ancient Commodore, one of four in the village. Cafes had popped up all over, with impromptu dances and parties everywhere
Surely life has improved tremendously in the few days since the Taliban left Kabul. And certainly many people are enjoying new (old) freedoms. However, your description is a gross exaggeration -- "everybody", "everywhere". Resistance groups like the RAWA have already expressed concern that life under groups like the Northern Alliance will be like life in Afghanistan was in the years before 1996 -- still brutal and repressive, just not in the extreme. While the picture of people shaving their forced beards off in masses or playing music and partying is certainly relieving, it is contrasted by a reality of executions/murders and, likely, rape. (Also, to be sure, many people are quite happy with their beards and appreciated the censorship and repression by the Taliban, much like many Germans supported the nazis completely.) Save the picture of "liberated Afghanistan" for the day when Afghanistan is actually liberal.
Fortunately, the US government seems to be pushing for a secular Afghanistan, but do not be satisfied just because the Taliban are going into guerilla mode. The Northern Alliance are merely the lesser evil.
If I lived under the Taliban for 5 years and finally got back a net connection, emailing JonKatz wouldn't be on the top of my list. Maybe the Taliban really messed with his mind...
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
On a commodore? TCP/IP stacks have existed for the 8-bit systems for years.
Linux for commordores.
http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunix.html
Instructions for getting it to work
http://cbm.videocam.net.au/chapter18.php
Maybe if it had been an Atari it would have been more credable. POWER WITHOUT THE PRICE OH YEAH!
It is a chilling, sober reality that we all must face.
I have a hard time believing this story. Most of you probably feel the same way. While Slashdot isn't a primary news provider like CNN it is considered by many of us a place to get information. Now, how in the world can I be expected to believe anything Mr. Katz has to say after this? His reputation is shot...
Of course we torture people, we need the information --Gen. Pinochet
What is all this crap with "aww it's a hoax Katz but thanks for the warm n fuzzy sentiments"..? Why is no one tearing him apart for publishing such an obvious pack of lies under the guise of a news piece? Perhaps you're all taking pity on him for being too daft to recognize a hoax email? But if you ask me he can't be THAT thick, he just simply made up a nice little flag-waver for you all.
For godsake this sounds like the most hockum hooey I've heard in a long time. "Independence Day" as a movie to rent. Lets get this straight
30miles outside of Kabul there is a video shop (lets pretend that one is reasonable) which saved its copies of "Independence Day" which it was renting to an audience which in the vast majority of cases doesn't speak english.
Hokum, baloney and rubbish. This sounds about as likely as a lead balloon circumnavigating the globe. I've read some vomit inducing stuff here from Katz but this takes the biscuit. Quite simply unadulterated rubbish. Movies on a commadore, what browser is our Afghan friend using and what player ?
You've been had Katz by one of the most transparent hoaxes I've ever seen.
I have bridges you might want to buy.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Mr. Katz, Your story sounds to me as if you had just watched a heart-warming holiday film and decided to right this fascade about the little geek that got his Christmas wish ( if he celebrated Christmas ). His country has been in utter turmoil in for the better part of 20 years. between civil war, the US and Russia invading and reducing most of the country to rubble. A zealotous government. Do you really think we are dumb enough to believe that this country still has the infrastructure and resources to: A) provide unlimited phone/DSL/cable/satellite ISP services to the masses ( most people I know outside of the US and Canada pay by the minute for dial-up service) B) physical infrastructure in the form of servers, cable/phone/fiber to allow public use outside of relief and military operations. C) these people could actually pay for these services after housing clothing and feeding their families. ( last time I checked I couldn't barter goats for bandwidth) D) You can't watch movies on a commodore (640k hard disk?) or even cache a image heavy pron site E) Just STFU and save your stories for your kids Katz
Remember Young ones. E-mail dosen't require direct internet access. People we exchanging e-mail over fido-net and USENET years before the internet was really accessable.
Hi All -
I think you all know that I don't send out hoaxes and don't do the reactionary thing and send out anything that crosses my path. This one, however, is a friend of a friend and I've given it enough credibility in my mind that I'm writing it up and sending it out to all of you.
My friend's friend was dating a guy from Afghanistan up until a month ago. She had a date with him around 9/6 and was stood up. She was understandably upset and went to his home to find it completely emptied. On 9/10, she received a letter from her boyfriend explaining that he wished he could tell her why he had left and that he was sorry it had to be like that. The part worth mentioning is that he BEGGED her not to get on any commercial airlines on 9/11 and to not to go any malls on Halloween. As soon as everything happened on the 11th, she called the FBI and has since turned over the letter.
This is not an email that I've received and decided to pass on. This came from a phone conversation with a long-time friend of mine last night.
I may be wrong, and I hope I am. However, with one of his warnings being correct and devastating, I'm not willing to take the chance on the second and wanted to make sure that people I cared about had the same information that I did.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
I was a little surprised last week to receive a forwarded e-mail from Junis, who lives in a small town 35 miles southwest of Kabul.
I have two questions for Katz:
1. Since when have forwarded e-mails been reliable journalistic sources?
2. Doesn't this sound suspiciously like the beginning of a "[name] is dying of cancer, will receive [amount of money] for every time this e-mail is forwarded" chain letter?
At least the poor kid didn't try and set up a website. Hehe... his Commodore would quickly learn the meaning of the phrase "/. effect."
Hello, I read your article and I think maybe the Taliban is defeat if they have things like me. I am a Bank of America ATM, and I haven't seen anything but the Stop N Go where I live for the past two years. If you need me to go fight for America and freedom with convenient locations and no fees (Bank of America cardholders only), then please take me to Aghanistan. I will do my part. Please, I am tired of the store. The boy who works here doesn't talk to me, and those skater kids are always leaning on me.
I am a sentient ATM.
I have kept upon the "WAR" alot since its beginningand there are about Five Telephone lines that are of high enough quality to support internet service coming in to afgan, all from pakistan. even the service providers are in pakistan. the odds that this guy was able to hookup to an ISP within mere minutes,or hours after the Taliban left are about next to zero. Not that i am saying it couldn't happen just so damn unlikly that it is unbelivable, I mean really guys, stop and look around at who is posting this story......
not to mention that all the phone lines and other basic infastructure have been pounded for years, by first the soviets, than the Tech hating Taliban, followed by the US. I truly doubt there is anything beyond basic power left.....However I do acknowlage that I could be wrong, and if I am good for the Afgans. but I don't think so.
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
I use a Pentium III laptop a US special forces team lost when they were fleeing from Bin Laden as he tried to ass rape them because you must know he is very horny and homosexual.
I did hide the laptop in to commodore because commodore where allowed by the taliban because commodore are no real computer.
The teams also lost some satellite phone I use know to download an Episode I div-X.
Very good the cell phone is because it is very fast.
However I must soon try to get new laptop because old keyboard is soon broke because I always drool and have seizure when I see appel website so drool gets locked up in keybord and the -key is not working any more.
Okay.
But could someone please explain to me about communist China?
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
Yeah right. So what does this guy do, call over to Pakistan to connect to an ISP? I don't believe it. Between destroyed telecom infrastructure and insanely high international LD rates even if you COULD make a call, it just doesn't sound credible. Downloading and watching movies on a Commodore? Balooooooney. The rest of the details sound way too contrived and "convenient" to be the real deal. Show us the email headers, Katz. I want to know how you determined that it went from Kabul to Islamabad to London to you. This sounds like a crock.
Fried ice cream is a reality. - George Clinton
Yeah, I am rather suspicious of the whole thing, too. As Eddy Izzard says, "The infrastructure's fucked." (God: "Oh? Well, have some jam. And here's a radiator.")
It looks like Katz is the butt of someone's joke. Without some backing evidence (such as complete mail headers showing routes, and evidence that the headers aren't forged), I consider this a kremvax.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I mean really - I for one would like to see Katz own up to this one and issue an apology for passing it off as real. Who else feels the same way?
OHH Yeah...Slashdot and open source are his favorite things. You sir are a liar.
"Science Explores, Technology Executes, Man Conforms." -1929 Worlds' Fair
Burying the stuff that represents your freedom.
Yep, I will be burying my guns as soon as the anti-constitutional anti-gun lobby succeeds.
They will wait for me until the oppressive regime is over.
"I could still see the dust of the pick-up trucks carrying the Taliban out of my village," he wrote, "and some friends and I went and dug up the boards of a chicken coop where I had hid the computer. They might have beaten or killed us if they'd found it. It was forbidden, although they used computers all of the time."
Just got right back to business when the Taliban left huh?
Kinda reminds me of the Saturday Night Live episode where the white people on the bus immediately started back their party as soon as the black dude left.
Hey Mohamed, the Taliban is gone, wanna play some pong? Sure Ashwan, let me just dig up my commodore.
Hi, my name is Junis. I live in a town 35 miles from Kabul in Afganistan. I am doing a school project to see how many people can read an email in 30 days. Please forward this to everyone you know, and keep the headers intact.
Thank you, your pal,
Junis
P.S. I really like Jon Katz, he is great.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
If he is using a Commodore, obviously money is not freely flowing out of his pockets. Then it states "Meanwhile, he's especially eager to get his hands on the Apple iPod" ...that ipod is around 300 USD...AND it only works with an Apple computer. You schuur the email you received was legit, Jon?
So have a good drown as you go down, all alone, dragged down by the stone.
We'd all love to read it.
[mod this up if you agree -- I'm at the cap anyway, so I'm not KW'ing]
for Dallas and Kojak reruns drove the shipbuilders of Gdansk to the barricades. Katz is our own Mrs. Malaprop.
illegitimii non ingravare
http://www.cwi.nl/~piet/kremvax.html
I'd be interested in a similar success story about China.
Yes, they have internet. But it's highly regulated and censored.
Yes, they have foreign TV stations. Who are all too willing to self-censor so as not to offend the government, for which they in turn get the privilege to sell to an audience of a billion people.
And while you're at it, show us what good technology does in North Korea with respect to human freedom.
However, the line of reasoning that the Taliban effectively eliminated internet access the the entire country is possibly incorrect.
http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/isp-satellites/
Way to tip off the world to the location of American special forces troops. Their blood is on your hands.
Idiot.
- Freed
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love." -Turkish Proverb
I was ROFL :-)) I am sure people in Kabul (for that matter in Pakistan or in any of the *stans) don't give a rats ass about FTC getting Microsoft.
This seems to be somebody's fantasy...
>>>>>>>>>Hey Jon, did
>>>>>>>>>>>the email have
>>>>>>>>>>a closing line
>>>>>>>>>kinda like my
>>>>>>>>>>subject line?
Fried ice cream is a reality. - George Clinton
Truly...this was just horrendous. I come here for "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." Not phony crap emails about some afghani hooking up his TRS-80 to download DIVX movies of bouncing breasts in wonderful 80x20 resolution at 10hz with 2 colours. You should be able to mod posts down so I don't even have to see this junk.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
OK, as already pointed out, this letter is 99.9% likely to be a fake. Jon, either say something, update the article, present proof, or make a retraction!!
I can't believe that someone working for slashdot would actually believe this stuff.
Jon, I'm not your biggest supporter, I'll admit, but this is just garbage! Why would you think some kid would single you out, find your email (which isn't easy), and write an email (I'm sure he's using OutLook on his commodore to do it, too).
Jon, lets stick to nerd topics, and quit milking politics. News for nerds? Funny, I can't think of many nerds that enjoy talking politics. Lets stick to Open Source, Linux, and internet tools like your boss says.
There goes the karma cap for me....
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Really, if this guy is for real, get him to write an article about his experiences. See if you can get him a digial camera to take pictures, and some way to get them out of Afganistan. Even if you just give him a way to mail you the disk, it would be worth it.
The best thing in the world, for the world, is for people there to get their experiences out!
www.eFax.com are spammers
Posting this type of garbage is reprehensible.
What else to you expect from 'not-check -the-facts-Katz'
I'm typing this on my Sinclair btw....
Obviously the consensus on this one is that this story is utter bullshit. I agree.
Katz states the guy thought they'd "get Microsoft". Presumably this means he had followed early anti-trust news but had subsequently been in the dark because of the Taliban. I don't buy this at ALL.
The BBC and the Voice of America estimate that 90%+ of Afghanis listen to shortwave and/or mediumwave broadcasts from the West on a regular basis. These people have not been completely in the dark about what happens here.
A determined "geek" would have easily been able to keep up with news about the anti-trust case, as both the BBC and the VOA broadcast news in English and about 40 other languages, including languages spoken in Afghanistan. At some point, one could have easily picked up a tidbit about the Microsoft case, most likely from an English broadcast listened to first-hand or translated by a friend.
This story is 100% bullshit.
there's already a lot of talk about "Survivor." Junis predicts "Temptation Island" will be the number one show in Afghanistan within a month.
:wq
Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
This shows why it's imperative that the US promote free trade with China and every other nation not actively inimicable to us, and why it's completely unnecessary that we establish a pro-US government in Afghanistan; we merely need to remove the anti-US government and back off. Repeat as necessary.
If they aren't attacking our people, back off and leave 'em alone. If they are, destroy them, and let their people sort out the relacement themselves.
The best defense is a lack of enemies. That means don't create enemies, and once you have them, eliminate them.
Maybe I should dig out my Okidata color printer and send it to him so he can print out his porn. Tell him to go easy on that tri-color ribbon, they're probably hard to find now. You can rewind the ribbon and use it a few times to save money if you don't care too much about the quality. Of course, it's extremely slow since the ribbon has repeating 8.5" segments of C, Y, &M, and needs to make three passes per line. But I guess he'll have time enough to print while waiting for the next image to download on his 1200bps modem.
10 PRINT "THE TALIBAN SUCKS"
20 GOTO 10
RUN
Oh, and did I miss an article about Linux ported to the C64? I haven't been reading the Linux on xbox/ps2/dreamcast/washingmachine/toasteroven posts too carefully.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Back when I ran a chapter of Amnesty International, we would get information about the Taliban all the time. Here's a link to Amnesty's site. I believe you can find info on Afganistan on the front page.
This is one of those situations when the media doesn't have to make up horror stories.
1) click on "Preferences" on the upper right hand of the page
2) go to the "authors" column, check "JonKatz"
3) click "submit"
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
This guy from just outside of Kabul will get another rude, nasty surprise when he figures out that a C64 can't download or play movies from the Internet very well at all. Poor guy, he'll have to wait for them to get released in the video store or something.
"Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
Take a look at CmderTaco and you will see a lot of -1's. He aint the real CmdrTaco, just an AC with an account.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
I agree too...
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Ok, this is not entirely on topic, but since the chances of me reading Slashdot when a fresh Afghanistan-related story pops up are really low, I'll post this here:
I am *exceedingly* surprised at how well the war has gone.
No, I don't mean on the US-domestic front (what with the Orwellian restrictions and all), but on the physical, actual war area. At the beginning of the bombing campaign I was under the impression that the Afghans were united behind the Taliban, and that an extremely costly and long land campaign involving a siz-figure amount of US troops would be needed to oust bin Laden, but no - a couple of smart bombs, a small number of cruise missiles and a couple of carpet-bombings and *POOF* there goes the Taliban.
I mean, wow. There has been, what, ZERO American war casualties, and a very small amount of civilian destruction, and most of the country is now in anti-Taliban control. Either I'm totally inept at being a military strategist, or the power of the US military machine is far greater that I imagined. Probably the former, actually - I didn't account for the fact that there *already were* well-motivated, battle-hardened ground troops in the country: all that was needed by the US was some air-to-ground action and the Northern Alliance and other opposition forces got the push they needed to (re)gain control.
The "Homeland Security" measures are horrible, but man, the old-fashioned war campaign went really well.
1) click on "Preferences" on the upper right hand of the page
2) GOTO 1
John says: "Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired."
.af domain then yes, you could be suspicious, but if John has known this guy for years then he's in a better position to judge than we are.
If you got a random email from someone you've never heard of from a
Baz
I don't believe this for a moment. I hope Katz is above simply fabricating something like this, but I have no idea why he would just 'describe' the letter rather then reposting it here so we can all see for ourselves.
And as others mentioned, you can't download movies to a commodore, it just wont happen And he wouldn't have been able to do 'modern' programming on it for a long time. While I have heard reports of video stories and movie theaters opening back up, they're more likely to renting Indian and Pakistani films. Although I'm sure some people go for the American ones as well.
And comments about the iPod and Macs? Yeh, right. This sounds like more of a katzian fantasy to me. How would he even hear about the thing? And why would he want it rather then more reasonable mp3 players. After all, on a pure modem link he isn't going to be able to download movies.
And unless the northern alliance has managed to get DSL installed in the past few days, he isn't going to be downloading movies no matter what computer he has.
Katz if you have an journalistic credibility, post the actual message.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The RIAA has said today, that it is conserned after seeing reports that file-sharing services such as Gnutella have increased in activity recently after Afgan childeren have begun download eminem, britny and agulera songs that they have missed over the past few years. The main concern highlighted by the recording industry is that there is simply no market penatration in the country - with cd sales currently standing at 0, per month. There are legal debates as to weather this means there is 'piracy' in afganistan.
The porn industry is on an economic up, after the new market of Afganistan has opened up. Hardcore Movie(tm) downloads are said to be at an all time high.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I'd love to believe this, but no.
Still, the guy must be brilliant - not only has he got a five year old Commodore to get onto the Apple site, with a five year old browser, over non-existent phone lines but he's planning on spending five years wages on an ipod too?
It's bollocks.
I've been to the area and know the sort of conditions. First up, if anyone is using email in Afghanistan it is not over the standard POTS. If much of that is still remaining, it is in no way any condition to get a data connection over. Internet connections in Afghanistan are satellite (Bin Laden's is, so are the Aid Agencies and the journalists). So unless our hero has a either a sat phone, or a 3ft dish in his back garden, I doubt he sent an email from anywhere in the area.
"Junis's e-mail -- routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London" is not the way it would go - if I remember correctly, the main Pakistani bandwidth goes via Singapore. Unless Katz means this email was sent to someone in Kabul who forwarded it to someone etc etc etc.
In which case I'd hazard a guess to say the first passing was on paper, not electronically.
Next, "Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired. He was genial and obsessed with American culture. He loved martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap. He was perhaps the Taliban's prime kind of target. (Now he's furiously trying to download movies he's missed and is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot.)"
Well, Hotwired's URL was first registered on 21-Apr-1994, but Katz's first writings were on Netizen. That started in 1996. The Taliban took Kabul in 1996, so Junis must have been quick. Obsessed with Linux then, sure - but now mesmerized by open source?
Which brings us to I thought they were going to get Microsoft," he wrote. "I guess not."
How did he know of the court case? Meanwhile, where did he learn perfectly idiomatic English? "Get" Microsoft? I "guess not"?
Temptation Island? Survivor? Riight - an area that until a week ago was isolated from the rest of the world is now aware and anticipatory of a tv show that is not even being aired on a nearby satellite network?
I'd love to believe this, I really would. But it's smelly as all hell, not to mention the highly dubious "they did it all for the toys" politics.
Still, if JK posts the email, with the headers, I'll be happy to believe, and drink a toast to Junis and his friends.
Re:Jon Katz Suck Ass!
He's so right.
- kengineer
((satire))
Cheers,
-- RLJ
if you're not getting the joke
Just show them a replay of Sunday's Britney Spears concert from Vegas. Checkmate.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
from the comfortable confinds of Jon's Herman-Miller chair...
Jon, did you research your story? Try to verify the facts? Try to corraborate it with conventional news broadcasts?
Jon Katz: reporter, commentator, or story teller? (a/k/a fact, opinion, or fiction?)
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
reality is not in a book.
1984, for whatever insight it offered, wasn't anything more than a product of the imagination of Orwell.
Similarly, The Old Man and the Sea was nothing but a product of Hemingways mind.
Neither is any kind of authoritative guide on the human condition. They are both opinions and reflections of reality. You cannot use them to deduce anything more about human nature and/or 'spirit' than you could by watching 'Indiana Jones'.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Today, Mr. Katz starts with "An open information society is inevitable." But in the past, he often chose to rail on the ad hominemly named "Big Media" for, well, trying to silence other opinions. You've seen this drivel -- Katz claiming that CNNSIAOLTIMEWARNERLOONEYTOONS will take over the world, imposing de facto restrictions on certain opinions, etc.
But today, open information is inevitable.
Seriously, what am I missing?
If this is true then humanity is doomed! We deserve to be wiped out by the first alien race that happens upon us...that is if we don't do it to ourselves first.
You're using her as bait, Master!
I guess you missed: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/20/131223 9&mode=thread. Where fundamentalism, especially of the religious type, rules society, it will not be free. This is particularly true where the people buy into the religious ideals.
It's good to know PsyOps is alive and well.
you realized how valuable tha thing really was.
We take for granted our TVs, internet, computers, pr0n, our liberty, etc. in such a way that sometimes we don't see how valuable these things are.
let's keep an eye on this new free Afghanistan, they can teach us a lot on this subject.
What ? Me, worry ?
This reeks of unmitigated, unsubstantiated horse crap...I think you need to
- Give substantiation to your facts
- Cite your sources
- Pull this crap you made up
I cannot believe that-- The Hollow Man
Non illegitimati carborundum
What business is it of ours how women are treated in Afghanistan? Since when were we the moral compass for the world? Last time I checked, we had seperation of church and state, which Afghanistan does not have. That means they get to rule their country however their religon sees fit. Attempted "Modernization" of Saudi Arabia is what created the whole fundie Muslim movement in the first place. I know it's probably hard for us equal-rights-crazed Americans (and Europeans), but maybe Afghans like it that way. Yes, even the women. Ask orthodox Jews or the Amish if they'd like to be forced to "modernize", and see what they think! If the Afghans would like to treat their women differently, let them figure it out for themselves, rather than putting our big nose in somebody else's business, which is what got us into this mess to begin with.
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
Is it just me or does this whole thing seem made up? I mean if I had been asked in the 5th grade to "write a fictitional account of what you think the NOW somewhat free children would do since the meanies have left town..." I could have came up with something really similar to this.
Dear Slashdot: "I love this freedom thing. My day went something like this: I dug up my trusty old C64 to surf the web a bit and download movies. I then spent a few minutes getting caught up on kernal patches -- (man that Linus guy sure is fast). Next I thought I would watch a little baywatch and break out the old Madonna posters. Later on I got together with my friends to go grab a coke and sub at the local deli, and then we all go out and rent this months versions of the re-released star wars movies.....life again is good!"
THE END.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Just a loose thought in the middle of all these raving rants...
What if this mail was real, coming from Afghanistan but it had been written by someone that actually had access to a PC relatively updated, someone whith the money and freedom in that land, someone from the old taliban government?
This might be more a distraction than a hoax...
coffee | nose > keyboard ©
After a while the taliban relented and started allowing female doctors to practice again. I guess they realized the problem when their wives and daughters started getting sick...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
But then Jon Katz comes along, and shows them who really is king when it comes to half-assed, inane leftist propaganda for half-assed, inane leftist propaganda's sake. I don't know what's worse, that I was expecting an Osama with a canadian style mouth having homosex with Satan, or that Katz is still allowed to have anything to do with Slashdot. C'mon, did he manage to get you drunk and sign a 30 year contract?
Every Amiga owner I've known has called them Amigas, never as Commodores. They were adamant that their multi-tasking, awesome sound and graphics Amigas were not mistaken for the simple little more than a console system that was the C64 that the rest of us had.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
I believe all email forwarded to me, if its on the internet it must be true!
The American government prevents this somewhat, by allowing way more student visas then immigration visas. So while it's easy to get into the US to study, it's not always so easy to stay and get a job afterwards. So a lot of people do go back.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I don't think I know enough about networking to do something useful with them myself. But I do believe that people here on /. have the skill and the means to figure out if the header information is true, and maybe find out where the sender is (assuming the headers are real..). Since our friend JK said he knows the places that the message had to go through to get to him, I thought it would be nice to see someone who knows what they are talking about corroborate his story.
Personally, I think the whole thing is big pile of cow-dung. But that's just me...
I have to applaud the resourcefulnes of the Afgan programmers. Downloading and playing movies on a C64 sounds very difficult.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
if the first thing he does is email Katz!
Guys,
FYI; if I'm not mistaken, Commodore made PC clones in Europe for several years, so don't automatically assume that this guy is referring to an old Commodore 64, and automatically judge this story as phony. There's a chance that he might've dug up an old 486 or Pentium 90, and sent out an email on a 2400/9600 baud modem.
you have way too much time on your hand, probably because "Many posters on slashdot describe themselves as nerds or geeks, societal outcasts. Posting to slashdot is their only true sense of community, and they view karma as a measure of popularity or status." get a life.
Whore me up!
Sound waves should be free!
There will be no valid comments to a post that was already not valid. For example, anything by Jon Katz. Well, that's just my opinion anyway. Perhaps some would agree with me.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
There have been reports (well one report that I've heard, actually) of a guy who dug up his big-screen TV after the taliban fled Kabul. It may have been a trend, after all it's not like people in the US can't get their hands on drugs despite the hard line our government has taken on them.
Kabul also has electricity and some telephone access. I seriously doubt someone in a village 'suburb' or Kabul would have access to those things.
And yeh, slashdot? (which wasn't very popular in 1996) The Microsoft case (which hadn't started in 1996) the iPod!?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
- Some taliban government official, quoted in an article on wired.com, summer 2001
"The internet interprets censorship and routes around it, although occasionally it takes a little longer and involves a bit more busting of heads than John Gilmore of the EFF might originally have imagined."
- Some guy in Afghanistan, November 2001.
Come on guys, THINK about what you are posting. This is horse crap, you know it now, and you should have known it before this went on the front page. Frankly, I expect you pull this story until you can substantiate it or post a retraction.
-- The Hollow Man
Non illegitimati carborundum
You know, Ben Franklin used to pull this type of crap all the time, both in the colonies when trying to rally support against the UK, and in France where he had published outrageous lies about British soldiers massacaring women and children during the war to boost French support in money and aid.
Is Katz thinking himself grand and trying to do likewise for the "benefit of society"? Thinking "if it just saves one childs life by making the slashdotters support aid to those Afghan geeks"? And trying to anti-globally disgust us with the tounge-in-cheek suggestion of Afghans watching Temptation Island. urgh..
I would really like a statement from Katz on this.
Silence Dogood
I choose not to watch TV most of the time, and most people are OK with that. Certainly no one forces me to watch it. The occasional show slips through. But I still haven't seen survivor...
They had several 8088-based PC's before they went under. :)
'Course his movies would be playing at about 1-fph (one frame per hour)... Worse torture than anything the Taliban ever came up with!
Everyone seems to be assuming that "Commodore" is synonymous with the C-64. But, although they never had any significant presence in the U.S. PC market, Commodore was until its end a manufacturer of PC "clones" as well. So the "ancient Commodore" could well be a 486 machine -- hardly optimum, but workable.
of course there's just enough holes in this story to keep anyone from being able to determine whether it's even based on truth or not from only the information here, but i truly hope that either way, there ARE stories of this sort happening in Afghanistan, and that stories such as this aren't just a lot of well-intentioned hogwash designed to keep the american public from realizing that dispite the fact that we're about to win vietnam here, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to live with afterwards this time.
What Katz should have said was that this dude is dialing up CompuServe on his Iridium phone...
He's probably hAx0ring pR0n on Bearshare right now...
How about a Q&A session with this guy? If Katz has a way to email him, and if this whole thing is real, I'm sure there's a bunch of folks out
there who sincerely want to hear about life
in Afganastan under Taliban rule, without all
of the media fluff.
What do ya say slashdot? Katz? (And yes, I submitted this as a story idea too.)
There is neither sand nor oil in afghanistan.
Maybe you should learn something before spouting your ignorant head off.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Your first line is moronic. Define your terms. Is this what you mean:
Open and free information just like CNN and MTV?
Inevitible just like the Wired pronouncements of a Dow Jones at 25,000?
Such a corporate monkey.
FU and all you stand for.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
I spent some time in Uzbekistan this October for academic reasons. Uzbekistan is not the most advanced place on Earth, but it's still light years ahead of what's left of Afghanistan with regards to telecommunications infrastructure.
Now, in Uzbekistan I had quite trouble getting Internet access outside the larger cities such as Samarqand or Tashkent; in rural areas, where you've partly still got manually switched telephone lines, you can just about forget it. It's Soviet telecom infrastructure, basically.
So how on Earth is this guy supposed to have Internet access in rural Afganistan where you can't even take it for guaranteed that there's electricity or running water, let alone toilets or telecom infrastructure? (All of this experienced in southern rural Uzbekistan.)
So either this guy has a satellite phone and a generator hooked up to his ancient Commodore to download movies with, or he's in one of the rare villages with running telephone on a one-phone-per-village basis and continually occupies it for use with the 1200 baud acoustic coupler modem and his Commodore to download movies and inform himself about getting Linux on his Commodore, or this is just a hoax.
The sad thing is that it's such a primitive hoax in the first place - just like the "technology conquers all" nerd variation of the romantic patriotic young outlaw theme.
So unless I get to read the original e-mail including forward information some time soon, JonKatz goes down in the dumpster for me.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
As for the fact that Junis had allegedly emailed Katz before, if Katz wrote about that for Hotwired, perhaps someone trolled him using that knowledge. If so, it would qualify as the best /. troll ever!
Either that, or Katz is exaggerating and adding details to suit his story, or simply completely inventing Junis - which would be even worse than if he was trolled. This is a hole out of which Katz cannot dig himself - he finally seems to have exposed his cluelessness and/or deceitfulness beyond any possibility of a plausible defense.
So let me get this straight: we're supposed to debate ideas Katz brings up as a result of being trolled? You claim he's a "respected geek journalist". There's only one problem with that - the article we're responding to has nothing in common with any kind of journalism. It has all the credibility of the original hoax that Katz seems to have fallen for. The only debate here is about what disrepute Katz brings to the term "journalist".
I would be greatly amused to find out that someone has been playing an extremely long and drawn out practical joke on Katz...
Whether Katz is being accurate and honest here is up for debate, but what I love is the incredulousness. Like:
.. it's imPOSSIBLE that he had those things, otherwise we might be forced to admit that the 'liberty' of being American really isn't that far off of many other places in the world. (Heck, do you really think a woman could be the president of the USA?)
.. no where did he say it was a 64
What?! He can download movies? He knew about the MS case? Baywatch? Damnit
At any rate, it's absolutely infuriating to see Americans so indignantly resolute in their assuption that Afganistan = Backwards = No One has a Clue What Goes On in the Real World. They were under an oppressive rule, and could be KILLED for simple things like using computers. That doesn't mean they sat around for 8 years with their thumbs up their asses, waiting for the Americans to get pissed off at their leaders, only to 'liberate' them into a world of higher pop culture conciousness. Sheesh. No doubt some Afgans secretly kept short wave radios. It's possible that some of the US Army commandos are providing satillite uplinks (just a guess, probably not). There are LOTS of reasons why Katz' story could be true.
When people talk about Americans being self-involved, this is what they are talking about! What bothers me is not whether Katz is being honest or not (and you don't really need to make up stories in times like this unless you're gunning for public support of military action or resctriction of civil liberties), but how people cannot ACCEPT things.
Shit, it's not like the entire population of Afghanistan ICQ'd Katz 2 minutes after the Taliban were driven south.
And Commadore made PCs
"Old man yells at systemd"
He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.
That was a little too much information for me...
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Katz once again has discovered his own nose. The issue of Globalization is AGE OLD, but Katz seems to want us to believe he invented the idea, or at least that he is on the cutting edge. Globalization is something that was noticed by Nietszche for crying out loud and has been talked about for literaly over a hundred years. Come on Katz, if you're going to pretend to be origninal don't insult our intelligence by being so OBVIOUSLY in the debt of other, much more astute writers.
He claims American commandos are skulking around dressed as Northern Alliance tribesmen.
Good thing that was just made public knowledge...
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Because you're obviously and unfunny idiot who's family is just as boring and stupid as you.
But that dosn't mean I appreciate you posting your ned-flanders crap to slashdot.
Sorry, either you are particularly gullible and stupid, or you are just another boring troll. Either way, enjoy whatever you get out of this.
Why wasn't the original message text printed? Or at least linked to?
Is it out there somewhere?
If you look at IBM's PCM site, they list 2 Commodore 286s and 4 Commodore 486s, and it's perfectly possible to upgrade a Commodore to some bastard Pentium chips. Of course he'd be limited to VESA video cards, probably, but it's completely possible to get Windows 95 running on one of those... or at least Linux.
GPL Deconstructed
Hi guys.
We've all been putting in long hours but we've really come together as a group and I love that. Big thanks to Omar for putting up the poster that says "There is no I in team" as well as the one that says "Hang In There, Baby." That cat is hilarious. However, while we are fighting a jihad, we can't forget to take care of the cave. And frankly I have a few concerns.
First of all, while it's good to be concerned about cruise missiles, we should be even more concerned about the scorpions in our cave. Hey, you don't want to be stung and neither do I so we need to sweep the cave daily. I've posted a sign up sheet near the main cave opening.
Second, it's not often I make a video address but when I do, I'm trying to scare the most powerful country on earth, okay? That means that while we're taping, please do not ride your razor scooter in the background. Just while we're taping. Thanks.
Third point, and this is a touchy one. As you know, by edict, we're not supposed to shave our beards. But I need everyone to just think hygiene, especially after mealtime. We're all in this together.
Fourth: food. I bought a box of Cheeze-Its recently, clearly wrote "Osama" on the front, and put it on the top shelf. Today, my Cheeze-Its were gone. Consideration. That's all I'm saying.
Finally, we've heard that there may be American soldiers in disguise trying to infiltrate our ranks. I want to set up patrols to look for them. First patrol will be Omar, Mohammed, Abdul, Akbar, and Richard.
Remember it, write it down, take a picture, I dont give a fsck!
this is the easter bunny,
i have a great price, ONLY FOR YOU, on this bridge in New York City..............
Authors exclude = JonKatz. You are outta here.
Mmmmmmm. Floor pie!
Now the big question is WHY is the cost of living so high in the "Blue" areas? Could it be that you (we) are paying for those sophisticated items, and all the overhead that goes with them? I'd say yes
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Well, I'm sure you're right about poland, but I was only talking about china, you probably meant to respond to the poster I responded to.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
who had no net access!
no!
You betcha! But then he got net access
oh, well then. hoorah or something
and he liked linux
yay! that guy rocks
and he also visited some sex sites
uhm, isn't that kind of a weird thing to tell a reporter?
he liked open source stuff. especially us, and especially not microsoft
yay! that guy rocks
there's more than one way to do me.
Could someone point me to the URL for DIVX-over-SMTP???
Let hope he does not restart vy read the back stories on slashdot. He might gain the impression that yanks are xenophobic bigots.
It doesn't matter if this article is true or not but the point it reaches is a fact!
Are there any organizations that could raise up money to get computers and internet connections over there? People need to open and expand their minds there because you don't want anybody to fall back to being lied to by some fanatics!
You can't give everybody there a computer but you can definately open series of internet cafes in central locations. Is that really that expensive? The cost for that is a lot lower then the cost of fanatics running around destrying buildings and killing people!
I've got online with the help of an Organization that raised funds in that way (Soros foundation for an Open Society) while I was living in Romania and it helped me more then anything ever did.
The access to real and true information is the ultimate in personal improvement!
So whats the deal? Katz is now a dupe of the man as well? Remember right after the 9/11 there was an email from muslim man circulating around the interenet? Yep.. Propaganda.
So while Katz is airing out his complete crap about *nothing* in particular, nothing but a heart warming tale spun to augment the beard shaving, women baring their faces, and the possiblility that MTV is coming to Kabul soon. Lets not forget the reality of the situation:
The Northern Alliance is a brutal regime as well. People welcomed the Taleban after being ruled by these losers.
On the homefront, the administration is taking power in sweeping gestures whose effects will leave us reeling for possibly fewgenerations.
Like the fancy stories you see above. People from the less fortunate countries in the world like Australia and Europe think our media is full of shit, and lying to us point blank.
But never fear, America is the home of the free. The best country in the world dude. And all that shit.
Anyway, just a reminder to use that search engine of yours and get the facts, see some other perspectives, especially now since Mr. Katz has obviously become a tool as well. Yeah maybe he was a tool before, but at least he had the power in his court to say something to Slashdot readers. I guess no more.
Actually, you kind proove my point. Being:
How do you (or I) actually know?
I guess your answer would be 'I do'.
Case closed,
QED
"Old man yells at systemd"
This is obviously a fake. Afghanis watching Baywatch? A Linux-Loving geek from Kabul? Where the heck did you people come up with this stuff?
Stupidity.inc?
I guess they have a passion for shows that don't bear the slightest resemblance to anything they recognize.
If the US' ultimate objective is to get a world of Brittany Spears fans watching the same crappy shows and the same crappy movies endlessly consuming junk they don't need then living in the mountains doesn't look so bad after all. Guess the US won't be happy until Time-Warner-Microsoft-Viacom-Disney is happy.
Why have a spiritual life when you can obscess about what team of millionaires is going to win some pointless championship? Who needs a meaningful life when you have T&A on the TV. Just let pop culture bandage over that hole in your soul!
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Or maybe the email was an Outlook Macro virus that deleted the story he actually really was working on... So he posted this instead
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
Also the line about trying to download movies is definitely suspicious. At 9600 baud perhaps? OK, give them the benefit of the doubt, 28.8k. Doesn't sound too believable to me.
Does anyone here not remember the days before broadband? Are you seriously telling me that no one here ever downloaded a movie or cd image over dial-up? I know I sure as hell did. It took days, but I still did it. Who's to say he's not doing the same?
First thing I'd do is find some high quality pr0n.
This is slashdot, if it were real, it would have made more sense to discuss HOW he got Katz an email.
orWho calls their PC a commodore? Wouldn't you call it a PC? If it was an Amiga, wouldn't you call it an Amiga? And most of the other skeptics here are right...he wants an iPad? Downloading movies? Nobody argues it can't be done in Afghanistan, we're just arguing that it doesn't make sense this Junis guy did it.
So while I can ACCEPT that computers exist in Afghanistan, and that people use them to surf the net, I can't accept that the first thing this guy does is look up what popular shows are, and cares about getting an iPad. I'd think he'd be reading CNN.com or something, trying to find out where he can order clothes or food instead of a new computer - the price of which could feed a village there for a year.
We accept an awful lot, but you'd have to be blind to reality to accept this story.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
> not bombs or special forces but pop culture --
>it got it again this week.
America's culture is definitely a powerful force - but it was powerless in Afghanistan until we used a few _weaker_ weapons (B-52, etc.)
The kid obviously has the first goat powered linux box on a C64.
First he gets the goat going on the treadmill that powers the dynamo. Then he takes each ip packet and writes it down, mails it, Katz types them in, gets the replies, writes them down, then mails them back whereupon this guy types them into his machine and voila! High speed goat-herder porn!
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
cryin' himself to sleep tonight on his huge pillah.
What with Las Vegas as its capital, American culture is more about satisfying your deepest, darkest desires (comeon, don't tell me you don't get a hardon seeing Natalie Portman, or Brittany Spears for some of you). Hell, we even let out our desires to murder people thru video games. We even get heavily involved in ebay auctions, bidding for even the stupidest of the stupid. Just to mention a few sins.
Why would a starving people who are having their country bombed give a rat's ass about Temptation Island? I am guessing that this is some form of sick advertising attempt, where Katz gets paid by companies to plug their wares in his stories. Hey, I don't have to prove that, right?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I'd like to know where you were having these radio difficulties :)
Big annoying corporate stations pretty much rule from north west palm beach, down to the keys. and everywhere in between.
After 5 years of not even catching a glimpse of CHEEKBONE, I would consider myself one gay-homosexual if I the first website I visited wan't www.17-year-old-dutch--lolitas-locked-in-a-69-lapp ing-each-others-little-hairy-peach-fishes.com
Having not seen porn for 5 years, I would probably have sudden ejaculation episodes at random intervals throughout the day from the recently engrained image of two seventeen year old Dutch girls sucking on each others supple nipples as one of the girls lightly brushes the inner thigh of her classmate...
CAN YOU IMAGINE NOT SEEING PORN FOR 5 YEARS!!!
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
....But this litle nugget would be the one part I believe is the bit about independence day
I saw this movie in several rental facilities in Kuwait (subtitled, dubed and censored) complete with new boxes with Airbic script all over the outside
Plus I read that same bit in my local paper
yes its a hoax but I would imagine you could rent Will Smith's movie in at least one store in Afganistan
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
Fiction is fiction, and by itself, that's fine. What's really wrong with this picture is that Jon Katz is using ficiton to justify a point about how great popular culture is. If the story is false, then the point is moot.
... drives life and liberty. Prooven once again via letters from Kabul. Hard code that!
- G.D.
P.S. I love the social-technological content these days. I might actually start to login again.
Cmdr. Taco must be rolling in his grave to see such fake jibberish being posted on slashdot.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Things that generally do not seem plausable are usually not.
It is very well possible that this Junis character may have indeed sent out that E-mail. But given that nature of technology and its use in afganistan, particularly rural Afganistan, it becomes more and more improbable that such events actually took place.
Hence all the sceptisism.
Some posters seem to think that this is a troll, or hoax rather than a real hacker, because it full of the classic signs of Social Engineering, false familiarity, overtly complementary, appeals to empathy, it's almost a classic.
I'll tell you what this old cynic thinks, this is a PysOp's plant not a troll.
Because of how sincerely he reports to feel for this guy.
>..20meg divx..
who said he was downloading 20 meg divx movies??? Im sure it would be more along the lines of a
I can certainly remember downloading and viewing movies circa 1996 (the age of his computer)... i am sure that i wasnt the only one.
>..As for digging up all the forbidden stuff as soon while they could still see the dust from the trucks of the talibans, that is just plain unbelievable..
Also the Taliban are insignificant compared to Communist Romania. The Taliban have been in power for 5-6 years and most of the citizens can remember the time before the taliban and the freedoms they once had (not sure on how different it was but it WAS different). So they are pretty quick to get back to them im sure. Not to mention a computer nerd getting back to his computer. How many of you 'TurboNerds' would RUSH back to your computer after 5 days (let alone 5 years). I am sure after 5 years, eager is an understatment for this guys feelings towards getting back at his computer.
According to CIA factbook...
1 The number of ISPs in Afghanistan (as of 2000)
NA The number of Internet users
10 The number of TV stations
100,000 The total number of TVs
14.7% The infant mortality rate
31% Literacy rate
$800 GDP per capita in 2000 (estimate)
Telephone system: general assessment: very limited telephone and telegraph service
domestic: in 1997, telecommunications links were established between Mazar-e Sharif, Herat, Kandahar, Jalalabad, and Kabul through satellite and microwave systems
international: satellite earth stations - 1 Intelsat (Indian Ocean) linked only to Iran and 1 Intersputnik (Atlantic Ocean region); commercial satellite telephone center in Ghazni
OK, um, first of all, why would someone in the middle of a war zone want to watch Survivor? OK, great, I'm going to watch a show about people manipulating, betraying, and starving after having been through 5 years of Taliban rule.
Next this guy will claim to have gotten to a modern website with a browser written in 1996 on a Commodore (lets hope its at least a very late model Amiga).
Meanwhile, he's especially eager to get his hands on the Apple iPod, and has been drooling over the Apple website site since he got back online.Yep, there we are, going to the Apple website was one of the first things he did after being free of the Taliban. Right up there with getting all those movies he missed? Right. As an aside, this guy must have had some serious cash to have an Amiga system in that country.
Yet again, Mr. Katz has proven to be overzealous. Or very, very gullible.
hold on jon .....
....
i think there's something good on
i used to read books but
it could be the news
or some other abuse
or it could be reusable shows
There is no
KATZ. Do you read the responses you generate? Or do you profess you r opinion and move on to "research" new postings. So do you have any evidence? It seems highly improbable for the events to have happened as you say. If I was living in Afganistan I would be working on bringing in food and medical supplies not TV's, VCRs, and Walkman's. This UberAfgan (IF true) takes hacking to a new level and he should be hired by the CIA.
Also... When I met you you seemed "child molesterish." You even invited us (a few other students) out for pizza! Has anyone else had the same experience? Why is everything with Katz revolve around kids?
Jon Katz is not wrong guys! Back when I was working with Al Gore trying to "connect computers" up to one another to form some kind of web, Junis e-mailed me! He had just fired up his cold-fusion powered Altair and told me there would be trouble soon! Anyways...
He finally dug up his Commodore 64, and as soon as he quit playing w/ that program that could make your floppy drive make music w/ the motor noise - he sent me a message!
It seems that he had been lucky enough to hide an extra Sat phone in the chicken coop and had modified it to reach near 1gb data transfer rates! While he was mailing me he was simultaneously watching some bootleg porn and downloading the new Britney Spears! He had to go tho, he was entering his credit card info on apple.com to get that sweet new Ipod!...
etc...
JonKatz - GO TO HELL. You are an idiot.
raretshirts.com - cool vintage t-shirts
It seems for all this talk about the information age we still can't get in contact with people in a war zone like Afghanistan to get at least their opinion of the situation. I've been wanting to talk with the Afghani "man in the street(rubble?)since 911. In a situation like this how do you go about it? Was anybody able to get in touch with any Afghani Geeks?
This is a good reminder that there are dumb, backward thinking, gullible people everywhere...
And Fnkmaster is one of them.
Why is it a good reminder if you yourself think it sounds like a hoax.
Hey international kids! Wanna Troll for Americans? WELL, STEP RIGHT UP! This is the inflammatory thread for YOU!
Here, uh, I'll start it up...
You think you're perfect! Take that, George! You export crap culture! Annnd your women are fat! They make bad television like Ricky Lake!
Take that yankee swine! You son of a motherless goat!
Honestly, in the last two days it feels like
Why did they have to pick such lousy examples of American pop culture? Stuff like Independence Day and Temptation Island isn't culture, it's cultural abuse for profit! It ashames me that this is the kind of stuff they are now yumming-up in Kabul, since it is the worst example of American culture IMHO.
The price we pay for a free society in an information age is that we gradually build up resistances against media manipulation and other trash like this. For example, those happy-go-lucky commercials of the 60's and 70's seem ludicrous and silly to us these days, just bouncing off our thick armor of skepticism. But 30 years ago those commercials apparently worked!
After some years of isolation, the people freed from Taliban rule may be hungry for all the trashy sensationalism that abounds in our society. But they may be lacking the ability to recognize the more subtle manipulation and propaganda prevalent in US media and pop culture.
Or, maybe not. What do I know, I haven't lived in Afghanistan myself. Maybe these folks know how bad and stupid these movies and shows are, and are just watching them because they embody the those qualities thought "evil" by the Taliban. Even so, I am genuinely embarrased by this.
Here is a Link for the ones like me that didn't know what PsyOps is.
Quote" Definition of Psychological Operations: 'Psychological Operations: Planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign governments, organizations, groups, and individuals. The purpose of psychological operations is to induce or reinforce foreign attitudes and behavior favorable to the originator's objectives. Also called PSYOP. See also consolidation psychological operations; overt peacetime psychological operations programs; perception management. ' US Department of Defense
Help fight continental drift.
He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.
(someone tell him about the internet king.) downloading pr0n on a commodore? ouch.
That's the biggest load of J. Kats crap I've ever read.
Just want to say that I have never laughed so much from Slashdot as I have with this. First reading Katz's article had me giggling, now reading all the responses, I'm just about pissing my pants! This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
I've always thought people were too quick to jump down Katz's throat in the past, but now you can add me to that list. I thought this guy was supposed to be educated! What the fuck?!
With all due respect, if I recall my history, the Luddites were not anti-technology per se, but they were against some of the negative effects of technology on the workforce and therefor one people.
We may disagree with their assessment of the net effect of technology on the world, but we certainly can appreciate the fact that they were concerned about the negative impacts of technology (which we must admit, just as we trumpet the benefits). We can also agree I'm sure that not every technology has been implemented wisely nor with due forethought for its consequences.
Luddites get a bad wrap because people have abused the term Luddite (taking it out of its historical context) in order to have a neat buzzword which means "anti-technological without reason or sense". The truth is, the Luddites may not have been entirely correct in their evaluation and they may have not understood the remedy to the problems created by technology, but neither were they blindly anti-technology.
But that's just from my recollection. I could, in fact, be mistaken.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
i didnt know they stacked shit that high. he should seriouly look into spicing up his columns with goatse links.. or something
thats because it's afghanistan. cd's are even banned.
When is Afghanistan's April Fools Day?
with the floppy? thats awesome. maybe i can find an afghan hotline server and get it on the DL!
Please. The burden of proof falls on those making the claims. Any good skeptic will tell you that. Outrageous claims require outrageous proof. This was a sensational story from the start, look at the title of it! Why focus on the ideas that are brought up when the basic premise is questionable and sensationalistic?
Example:
Why would a starving people who are having their country bombed give a rat's ass about Temptation Island? I am guessing that this is some form of sick advertising attempt, where Katz gets paid by companies to plug their wares in his stories. Hey, I don't have to prove that, right?
That unsubstantiated claim has just as proof as Katz's story; that is, none.
Just promise to call me in the morning, OK?
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Amen, brother. It's always good to know how "pop culture" is always the cause worth fighting for. What drivel.
Haw haw. Too funny.
Katz better have something good ready for us...too many loose ends...
To the operators of Slashdot:
/. community and the reputation of this site.
1.) Please remove this article at once. It is a filthy assortment of random lies and is an embarrassment to the
2.) Please strongly consider firing Jon Katz for his lack of journalistic integrity. Better yet, decide via a Slashdot poll.
3.) A major improvement to Slashcode would be a system by which readers can moderate the posting of articles on the main page.
That being said, I am all for the overthrow of the Taliban regime and the restoration of the rights and freedoms of the Afghan people.
This, however, should be the last straw. Please, pull John Katz off Slashdot. This story is ridiculous to the point of being scary. Katz has made an ass of himself - don't let him do the same thing to the site.
This post will probably be modded down so as to sanitize the discussion (Off topic or Flamebait is anything that constructively criticizes Slashdot, along with the rest of the troll content), and so will many other that are trying to make a valid point. But just remember one thing:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
It happened at Kent State not that long ago... You're correct that people may have a difficult time shooting at their own kids or siblings, but it has already been demonstrated that in the heat of the moment and in the right situation, there would be little hesitation to shoot somebody else's kid or sibling.
For those that don't remember RFC 1149, it basically specifies a protocol for IP over avian carriers, CPIP (carrier pigeon internet protocol).
There are details of of the first implentation of this protocol (including pictures) here...
Funny Stuff.
Ironically, he never saw combat. He picked the Coastal Artillery for his specialty, never guessing that a little thing called an aircraft carrier would make big cannons on the beach obsolete. 'Spent the war in the Staes, itching for an invasion. Afterwards, he worked with a group that organized civilian governments to replace the ones the Nazis had left in Europe in all the towns. Briefly, he was also basically the postmaster for all of Europe (until the civilian postal services got rebuilt). Good administrator, but he always felt that it was the lack of combat duty that doomed him to colonel instead of the general's stars he felt he deserved.
Unfortunately, he had more than enough rage to go around. He just vented it at family instead of the Enemy.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
"Whether Katz is being accurate and honest here is up for debate, but what I love is the incredulousness. "
The burden of proof falls on those making the claims. You do not get it. It is simple. Katz has to prove his story. Has he offered this? No.
We would have to be idiots if we were not incredulous. What he is asking us to believe is nothing short of incredible. We need strong proof to believe this aberration.
Everyone who cannot argue on a weblog likes you use, "see you prove my point," and not explain how. How does he prove your point? Just saying it does not make it true.
You are making the claim back it up. Katz is making a claim outside of what is expected, he should have evidence. He only has sensationalism and catchwords.
I hope you are a troll, if not you would have to be real gullible or dim. They have a saying in China "You can not cover the sun with mud." You seem to like to cover your eyes with mud.
While he was mailing me he was simultaneously watching some bootleg porn and downloading the new Britney Spears!
Just so you know, it wasn't the music he was downloading, but Spears' genome. Once he figures out to hook up his C64 to the genetic recombinator he hid in the barn... well, let's just say he won't be needing to download so much porn.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
But many of you seem to be missing a point. Taliban did not ban internet or any other tech toys at first, they did this banning thingies after they controlled much of the afganistan and only gradually after that. IIRC internet was one of the last things on the ban list (presumably it was not very accessible anyway)
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
This article is just ludicrous! It's damn funny. What'll probably happen is that the story will be removed from the front page, like some of /.s other major fuckups. (like when Michel ripped on a distributed project to help cure cancer, because it was being run by a corporation (Intel), without even bothering to contact the people who actually wrote the software.)
I started out liking Katz (read him on hotwired, that's actually how I found slashdot), but he seems to just get stupider and stupider.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Somebody out there must be busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest to be making up a hoax like this.
This is a big hoax. Bigger even than the hoax about the MIT operating system Cesium that's supposed to contain year 3,000 technology that nobody on the same floor of that building ever heard of.
On the other hand, can you give me his email address? I'd like to know how to watch movies on my Commodore.
People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing,
American culture is all of those things.
The tidal wave of American culture is frightening and Borg like.
As long as it is seen this way, reactionary forces will gain support from the many who watch with despair as traditional culture and values developed over many centuries are replaced within a generation with what comes over satellite television from America.
It's too bad we're incapable of giving the Afghans freedom, democracy and human rights without simultaneously injecting a huge dose of consumerism laced with appeals to lust and violence.
Oh well, I suppose I can't fault the rest of the world for falling into the same traps that my fellow Americans have for decades. Don't like it? Don't watch it.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
The burden of proof on this claim would most likely crush Katz's shoulder.
They will tolerate USA interference for a short while to drive out the greater evil. Stay too long, and they'll be shooting at US soldiers too.
They intensely hate the foreign components of the Taliban. Arabs and Pakistani Taliban who couldn't escape were summarily executed. Only Afgan Taliban were are being imprisoned.
It should be real easy. You all just send me $100 each, and I will make sure he gets it, then you all get 10 of your friends to send a $100 to you and........
I am sure Junis will be posting hear soon, since he "is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot," and I am sure he will rally to Jon's defense and prove that this isn't a hoax.
Jeez Jon, get that fish hook outa yo' mouth.
The guy writes crap, everybody here knows it.
That maybe the kid sent the email from a friend's PC (or a 'community' PC of sorts), and that the fact that he kept his Commodore hidden is only tangential to the story? As far as Net access is concerned, I've read stories of Taliban members who have (had?) satellite TV, CD players, you name it. Look at the New Republic from a week or two ago, there's a story that mentions a Talib with loads of contraband at home.
Hey I hide my Commodore from my wife, so I can relate!
8 bit computing - It may be 2007 out there, but it's 1983 in here!!
Instead of rephrasing the content, why not post the original email, including the header? It will be interesting to see how the email is actually routed.
Hmm...
I do believe that smell is shit!
It's a lot easier to give up freedoms than achieve them, and once Big Brother's done with the terrorists, they'll be looking for a new enemy. And THEY define what a criminal is! Like a puff of sensi after a hard week's work? Sure you don't have any stray MP3's around that you didn't pay for? Maybe installed one too many copies of Windblows someplace without buying one CD per machine?
Be careful when you say "I'm not a criminal" or "My government doesn't care about me."
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
-- Pastor Martin Niemöller
bin laden VS. bill gates : the political cartoon
just thought it was a good idea. it sorta combines certain social issues in the US.
who really controls our country? the most powerful person in the US may not be George Bush... it is very likely Bill Gates. a cartoon such as this would bring the Microsoft DoJ case into a different light and possibly be a good example of what the Taliban hated about the US.
just a thought.
-- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
Jeezus H. Christ. Don't you fuckers ever think about anything else? Can't you get your tiny little minds off Microsoft and on to something more constructive?
Fuck, I'm pissed at the lot of you. Get a goddamn life.
Want to know how Afgans really feel? Then read this Reuters interview with a man named Golam. Here's the run-down: in the middle of the night today [Tuesday morning] American aircraft crashed a crate of food through his roof, destroying his home and trapping his 2 year old son in the rubble. The packages themselves split and scattered food everywhere, which was infuriating because Muslims of Golam's sect fast during the holy month of Ramadan and are only allowed to eat at sunset. Three other homes were demolished the same way. The packages were labeled "A Gift From the People of the United States of America". Some gift. Some people we are (being made to look like).
WTF? So this story is fictional? And how are people to know that? Do the Taliban really kill people for having computers? Lame.
Some British dude does the following: freebsd-box$ telnet smtp.wackybritisp.net Connecting to smtp.wackybritisp.net 220 smtp.wackybritisp.net ESMTP MAIL FROM:<junis@afghanistan.af> 250 OK RCPT TO:<katz@morons.slashdot.org> 250 OK DATA 354 go ahead Hello Mr. Jon Katz. I am from Afghanistan, and you and your country have just liberated me. I am very in much liking your news stories. I love your journalistic style and am predicting that it will be the most popular in my country. I am wondering if you are able to send me apple ipod. Please send it to London, for my mail is being routed from London, to Islamabad, to Afghanistan. You are god of open source ^C freebsd-box$ lynx http://www.slashdot.org (breaks out into laughter)
I wouldn't rely on information from the CIA World Factbook too much. The problem is mainly that it relies heavily on government sources. You can see this when you compare, for example, the literacy ratings for various countries. Most ex-Soviet countries are listed with 99 or near 99 percent, for example, which is a relic from Soviet times where they claimed the literacy rate to be 100%; they do have excellent literacy, but it's not quite that excellent. Now what sources did they have for Afghanistan? Do they list them anywhere? Are they credible?
Another problem is that some figures are pretty difficult to estimate. Consider "Internet users", for example. For Uzbekistan, for example, it lists 42 ISPs and 7500 Internet users. How on earth did they get that number? What constitutes an "Internet user"? How do they count Internet cafés which are really widespread in the cities of poorer countries, for example? Is an Internet café a single Internet user, or do they count the 100 or 200 regular café users individually? In the first case, the figure means nothing at all, in the second, it's plain wrong from personal experience.
Also, you never know precisely when they collected their data, which, in telecommunications or computing, does make quite a bit of a difference.
In general, be as careful with the CIA factbook as with any other source. In spite of the label, it does not only contain accurate facts, and the label "CIA" does not necessarily imply correctness of information.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
This is sick and disgusting propaganda and I wouldn't doubt Psyops had a part in it. Afghanis need to stop being carpet bombed and starving before they can start raping the planet with the same zeal as the 'civilized' world.
http://www.antiwar.com
News that CNN doesn't like to report.
Commodore PCs ran as high as 486-66s.
Install a bastard Pentium Overdrive, and you have a 100 to 120MHz machine, *maybe*, possibly.
Bump up the ram to 32mb... and you can install Windows95. You can trivially install Linux.
You can play mp3s, if barely, on a 486. You can play mpeg1 movies on a Pentium, but it would drop frames and take a bit of space. On the other hand, if they have low res low quality version, maybe it's not a big deal anyway.
GPL Deconstructed
The story does have some things correct (ie. about video rentals, music etc.), but does seem to leave some room for wondering about the energy source used for the computer, and the type of computer, and the connection speed to just go and download movies and druel over Apples Web site, and the frequency of e-mails received from the Afghan geek to the Slashdot editor. I think the way everyone on the board could know is if the Afghan geek posted a message on one of his favorite sites (Slashdot), and then we could trace the domain by looking at e-mail information back to Afghanistan. Of course, this isn't to say that this couldn't be replicated, but not without some research.
why independence day? its arealy bad movie!
show Rambo3!!!
Take a similar case in western law. When governments enforced gun registration many people buried their guns rather than destroy them. If someone were to outlaw computers I would give them it but backup all my data and bury it somewhere (this is specific to me, neighbours know I use computers a lot and I couldn't just claim I didn't have one).
This is total bullshit. This story is made up bullshit propaganda from Kuwait. None of those fasting fucking towel heads have a clue about technology.
Stop posting bullshit about some cock sucking taliban defector missing his timex sinclar computer buried in his mother's grave. There is no fucking way this stone age society has telephone access to the real world.
NUKE THE FUCKERS and whomever created this article needs to be there in towel head land while the blast is cleasing their land.
He's turning into Al Gore!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. We're not being liquidated in gas chambers over here, you know.
Here's my philosophy.
When I become a criminal (when they define my behavior as criminal or I commit a criminal act), then I will take appropriate measures to defend myself from persecution if wrongfully accused, or I'll accept responsibility if I get caught fair and square. I only trust myself to defend myself, and I'm not just talking about legal representation. If I can't defend myself, I've only got myself to blame and haven't been let down by anyone else's incompetence.
I remember around the time the Taliban was knockign down statues of Buddha, news came out that they "banned the Internet", and MSNBC (or some other major news outlet) thought this was amusing because no Internet connections exist anywhere exist, unless you're very close to borders with other countries. Come on, Katz. "Gamers and coders hiding PCs"? Yeah, right.
... till you think about it for a bit, and then realize it's completely dumb. Who's his ISP? Afghanistan On Line ?How did he know katz current email address? How did he know about /. ? What a comlete crock of absurdity...
It's not as simple as that. Do you have the right to e.g. punish someone that thinks he/she is doing the right thing, no matter what organisation, religion or culture that person belongs to?
You don't have the right to force someone to do (or don't do) something unless that other person "agrees" (has the same cultural, religious or ethnic backround, or lives in the same country and abides to the same laws).
I think things like for example the U.N. declaration of the human rights are good things, but some other things don't simply have global validity. You take them for granted, like double glased windows, central heating, universities without fees, and taking your shoes off when going indoors (I'm a Swede), but everyone else does not. You can't enforce things like that, not even the U.N. declaration of human rights, on anyone.
Enforcing a way of life upon someone is wrong. It is a violation of the integrity of the other person. It is denying everything that the other person is.
I'm not saying it's wrong to stop people hurting each other. I'm saying it's way wrong to call it your moral right to do so, because morality is not global.
And don't forget: The conflict in Aghanistan exists because of American foreign policy, because of economics, because of oil. Prove me wrong.
5000 people is a small prise to pay to ensure that ones interests in the middle east are not jeopardised. Don't come talking about moral, because moral is nothing.
It's 11pm, do you know what your deamons are up to?
I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some evidence, but I do think that in general, the Katz series of articles tend to be designed more towards provoking debate and seeding ideas than toward investigative reporting. It's a piece about the power of technology, not a master's thesis on broadband in Kabul with footnotes. I may be too trusting, but I don't think that Jon presents an entirely implausable scenario. How could this be proven if it were in fact true? Would email message headers do it? I doubt it.
;).
The way I see it, sufficient proof would be full email headers, substantiating email from each member of the forwarding chain, photos of the much ballyhoo'd Commodore (preferably playing a downloaded copy of The Phantom Edit), and ISP records proving that movies could be (and had been) downloaded on the outskirts of Kabul. Or alternatively, I guess a video interview with the dude in Afganistan might suffice, though it's not like Jon can just hop on a flight to Kabul (unless he enlists in the special forces
Frankly, that's a pretty heavy burden of evidence to place on any journalist and especially here on Slash-(We'll post obvious product advertising literature sent from company email addresses)-dot. I'd be curious what sort of evidentiary standard reporters are generally held to at upstanding newspapers and magazines.
Screw on-topic! Let's start a thread...
What is reasonably required to back up a journalist's story? And especially here on Slashdot (Katz, Taco, rest-of-crew feel free to chime in [unlikely]... or mod down [more likely])
- StaticLimit
It's things like this - "No computers on pain of death" that make the US seem slightly better. It's also things like this that make the Taliban even worse.
PBS's The Capital Gang most for its in depth thought provoking rehashing by a bunch of old line media lamers.
I won't comment on the nature of the email itself, which is obviously a hoax (and a bad one at that), but I am in contact with a friend who's been in Peshawar for a little over six months now, so I thought I could shed some light on some of the questions that the thread generated. She's been sending me regular reports (about once a month) about her life there, and of course, the topic has greatly changed since 9/11.
She was evacuated to Pakistan for a few weeks and she's now back in Peshawar, where she works for an ONG.
The Internet exists in Afghanistan, and the Talibans could never eradicate it completely. There are a limited number of Internet cafes in University Town (very deserted right now but this will change when Torkham opens again). The sessions are very cheap (about 20 roupies) and the bandwidth is of course very limited, but they seem to offer the minimal needed to send emails.
A lot of the Internet cafes have booths and are mostly used for porn, as are some of the few movie theaters left open. In those, the beginning of the movie is usually Taliban-related and it switches after a few minutes to the juicy stuff.
That's it for now, I can elaborate if there's interest.
http://msnbc.com/news/660540.asp
American culture is what this world is yearning for. Let's give em divorce, traffic jams, and smog. If the Taliban couldn't finish the population off, our culture sure will.
Jeez, this guy was downloading MP3's and movies with his broadband connection in Kabul a few years ago? I only got my broadband a few months ago. What a gyp!
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
So the `story' is `metaphoric' or `symbolic', is it? No, it's not. It's bullshit. It's been professionally prepared to influence your opinions, feelings and reactions, and its intended effect is to pacify you while you're being repressed in your own country, it is only peripherally about Afghanistan.
Firstly, I would just like to congratulate the author: this story is the most transparent example of propaganda I've been privileged to see.
Something over a million people are at risk of starvation in Afghanistan because of the US' air invasion but little Timmy has never had it so good because of the magic of western technology and baywatch?
The intent of whoever writes propaganda is to appeal to our prejudices (technology good, food is something you get out of the fridge.) In this case, we are distracted from any issues that we might conceivably do something about. Its overt project here is to pacify the readers.
In that first aim, it has largely failed: good propaganda hooks straight into deeply held beliefs and anxieties, and bypasses the critical faculties, it seeks a direct emotional effect, which in this case (due to the overdeveloped critical faculties of computer weenies) it has not directly achieved.
Look at the subtext, though, look at what's not being said directly, think of it as a fable, or a just-so story: ``Technology thrives even through the most repressive regime. Little Timmy kept the spirit of innovation and connectedness alive even through 5 years of political and social repression.''
Consider, for a moment, that you geeks in the US, and probably we geeks on the periphery, are witnessing exactly the kind of erosion of civil liberties that the Taliban would approve of, and in the same cause (godless heathens at the gates, pull the wagons in a circle, accept arbitrary rule to preserve your culture.)
Consider the buried message in this piece of propaganda: If little Timmy could survive the Taliban by burying his C64 in chickenshit, then surely *I* can survive the radical restrictions of a US at `war', the GW Putsch, the suppression of free speech, by just keeping my head down - burying my processing power under the warm pile of steaming chickenshit which is JKatz's story.
Hell, I can even download porn and videos under martial law. Good deal! Where do I sign?
"There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt
Get your facts right Katz. Poland did not have a cultural repressive Government that can be compared to the Taliban. It was repressive in the way that it tried to eliminate any political opposition, but in never denied people's rights to learn English, listen to ABBA, and watch Donald Duck or anything else that was pumped out through the pop culture machine. The things that were censored were NOT really pop culture in the West anyway. Actually, the government at the time was considered more lenient when compared to other satellite states.
of Katz's rich fantasy life. However... when you're dreaming these gems up for us Katz, try to make it a little believable.
ergo... the Taliban was barely out of town when the dude and his friends were out in the chicken house digging up the floorboards...
Spare me. Most of the goddam HOUSES in Afghanistan don't have boards on the floor for chrissake.
Check out CNN agsin Katz... DESERT! ROCK! NO TREES! Sheesh! Geeks!
He could have been running Fidonet. He could use it for e-mail/usenet, and it will run on a Commodore C-64. If he had fidonet, he can phone across the border to Pakistan and exchange mail. Of course his mail could easily be bounced around a lot before it gets to its destination, which seems to be the case.
"He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer."
Damn be careful buddy, where ya gonna get a new keybord round there?
It turns out that the "plans" for nuclear (read 'Nukular' in Bushspeek) weapons they discovered in Taliban hideouts may have been based on a scientific parody magazine (and subsequently distributed via the internet):
y 2. php
."
.The chain reaction then promptly produces
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/ridgewa
WASHINGTON, D.C.-Suddenly, Al Qaeda doesn't look so smart. Just
yesterday, a Times of London reporter found a cache of plans, left in
a Kabul home as the Taliban retreated, that included notes for making
a thermonuclear device. The papers sent a chill through the Western
world, since they appeared to indicate sophisticated designs for an
atom bomb.
Now the online Daily Rotten says at least part of those documents
photographed by the Times are taken verbatim from a "semi-famous"
pseudo-document that has been circulating on the Internet for years.
It's a reprint of a scientific parody called "How to Build an Atom
Bomb," from the geek-humor newsletter Annals of Improbable Research,
originally known as the Journal of Irreproducible Results.
In his report for the BBC, reporter Anthony Loyd held some of the
papers up for the camera, giving a glimpse of documents the Daily
Rotten now compares to the 1979 parody.
Even the language Loyd uses to paraphrase the abandoned material
sounds like that of the satirical document.
Describing the scene in a Times article, Loyd wrote: "The vernacular
quickly spun out of my comprehension but there were phrases through
the mass of chemical symbols and physics jargon that anyone could
understand, including notes on how the detonation of TNT compresses
plutonium into a critical mass producing a nuclear chain reaction and
eventually a thermo-nuclear reaction . . .
The parody document reads: "The device basically works when the
detonated TNT compresses the Plutonium into a critical mass. The
critical mass then produces a nuclear chain reaction similar to the
domino chain reaction . . .
a big thermonuclear reaction. And there you have it, a 10 megaton
explosion!"
To find these faux atomic-bomb plans, do a Web search for "The device
basically works" or "Let's Build an Atomic Bomb!" instructs the Daily
Rotten. "It gives us pause and joy to know the Taliban are wasting
their time downloading what amounts to joke mail and spending time
trying to discern the facts therein."
Homeland security secretary Tom Ridge acknowledged the plans had been
found, but downplayed their importance. With this Daily Rotten report,
the public may get a glimpse of why.
Reached at the Pentagon spokesperson Major Tim Blair said, "I can't
comment on that. You can find all kinds of reports, and you have to
look at which ones are credible. We issue briefings and press
releases, but we don't talk about anything dealing with intelligence.
I'm not throwing stones, but the media should check the credibility of
their sources. You all have to do your job."
The foreign editor who handled the story for the Times was not
immediately available for comment.
--
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Well, I think there's a few more inconsistencies we might not have realized in this story:
As a side note, I feel sorry for anyone using any of the search engines that they remember from 1996.
It all goes downhill from first post
This article is bizarre. Unfortunately, some people may actually believe it. I don't believe it myself.
CNN.com has been posting stories about how the US Government wants to influence media companies to send these types of messages to us. I wonder if that is what is happening here. This is just so weird.
(news reports have frequently mentioned that Bin-Laden's organization used both e-mail and encrypted files to communicate).
I hope this is not a comment in favor of regulation of Cripto but it sure sounds like one.
Anyways my opinion on this "report" is that is totally FUD.
http://securityportal.com.ar
Do you realize that you're contradicting yourself? You're telling other people that it's wrong to tell other people what to do. Funny funny!
According to your own statement, as a Swede you have no right to tell Americans not to interfere in Afghani relations.
Many other arguments could be made againt your position, but it's disproved itself already, so I'll spare you the details.
...must be the reason people exclude Jon Katz in their viewing preferences. What a bunch of shit.
I'm off to tick that little box myself now. I bet its getting a lot of hits today.
... this is a ridiculous concoction. Digging up a computer after it's been buried 4-5 years? Um, even leaving a computer in a hot trunk all weekend can cause it to fry ... 4-5 years of climate changes, dirt, moisture ???? Watching video on a Commodore computer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an "ancient" Commodore is not even as powerful as a gameboy or an old HP scientific calculator. And internet access - from a string tied between two empty bean tin cans?
Katz, either you are (A) purposely perpetrating a propaganda fraud or (B) so fucking clueless that you would buy into a hoax email and trot it out as a feature story or (C) got your dates confused and thought it was April 1 today but that would be a sick joke ...
That does it ... as soon as I post this, I'm going to set my /. preferences to filter out all "stories" by Katz. If I want Cinderella tales or bedtime stories, I'll go see the new Harry Potter movie ...
AZspot
Jon, I think you mean the Americans never made a dent. It was they who bombed the fuck out of Afghanistan.
You know what's really inevitable?
John Katz pathetically preaching to slashtrash.
John Katz sounding like an idiot, even amongst the endless supply of idiots on this web site.
Sure, mod me troll. It's still true, and you can't change that, moderator or not.
It just said he was 'trying to download movies'
I can try all day to drive 100mph in my Daihatzu handivan, but it doesn't mean I can.
The SBS World Guide is pretty good.
It's a service of the Australian SBS broadcasting network, a multi-ethnic/cultural/language & world news network. Its owned by the Australian govt & is a sister network to the ABC, Australia's equilivent to the BBC.
Don't bother replying to my question. I only now noticed the article was written by Jon Katz.
Did anyone notice that he mentions that he received a "forwarded" email?
Most people seem to forget that Amigas were a good 5 years ahead of pc's. The Amiga 4000 had a "Motorola (R) 68040 series 32-bit processor", running at 25mhz. Dont let the low number fool you. Those RISC chips had a lot of grunt. (The playstation one had a similar cpu running at only 33mhz). Add to this the fact that Amigas have a dedicated graphics processor, and a dedicated sound processor, and you've got quite a powerfull machine for its age. It could EASILY handle mpeg1 fullscreen.. (even a 486sx can handle mpeg1). hell, I know someone who does realtime video editing on an amiga.
h tm - PSone statistics.
References
http://amiga.emugaming.com/a4000tech.html - A4000 statistics
http://www.sony-middleeast.com/playstation/psone.
I'd be willing to bet that the U.S. forces in Kabul have seriously increased the amount of Internet Accessibility in the general area - I KNOW for a FACT, that there had been relatively widespread internet access in *.AF in the time of the gulf war, as I had several contacts in that area, during that point in time.
It's likely that the U.S. forces have restored access to the area in a relatively short period of time - even the military boys like the Internet.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Mr. Katz,
I rarely post to Slashdot, but after reading your latest piece, I felt the necessity to send this letter. This is by far the most insightful study of the Afghan conflict that I have read. The first real human interest story to emerge from the country of Afghanistan since the conflict.
In reading your previous articles, I thought your politics were too liberal for me. I did not understand how anyone could condone the action of murderers of children (i.e. Columbine). Now, I see that you are a true patriot. You understand the struggle, and how America truly is trying to bring freedom to the opressed of the world.
Young Junis should have the right to experience the same freedoms that are available to American kids. If he wants to hack on his Commodore, he should be able to provided that he does not break the law.
I truly hope that you use your gifts as a writer and journalist to bring us more such pieces. Please ferret out of your network more such interesting stories. I would be interested in seeing how the Afghan quality of life has improved since we liberated them from such an oppressive ruling faction.
I'd like to know how our superior value system has broken the red circle in socialist countries like China and their European counterparts like Finland and Sweden.
Its common that people who hate our love of liberty will attack you. You must be strong. The red army cannot withstand such objective evidence such as a testimonial on the superiority of our culture.
Most journalists ignore this concept. You rarely find coverage of these issues except on talk radio. Thank you for bringing sanity to the internet.
Well... the subject line says it all.
/. setup.
I am always more than willing to listen to opposing opinions (even if there are really far off mine).
But this time Katz has gone a tad bit too far. I'll exclude his stories in my
Using the current dramatic situation for cheap careering moves is just too far off my moralic imprint...
+++ath0
enough to spy on EVERYBODY? Will you still feel safe that the government
doesn't care enough about you to spy on you?
These bullsh't mouthahs wouldn't know what to listen for ..."could you do me
..."t'sup"..."momajoma gonna take the big ones... "Jesus sez"..."none are so
...especially if they are in sugar shock from too
a favor?"
blind as those who will not see"
many jelly donuts.
Hi technology huh? If I am elected President I will arrest
Bill Gates for treason, destroying millions of American man hours & prolifferating
backdoors & other sabotoge against the computing public. I will enforce the WWII
laws against broadcasting encrypted communications against HBO
American Technology huh? While everyone in Washinton are geting their ...green Berets on their asses, how about a couple of mine dogs with 'cams on
rocks off
collars' going in [trained to smell out bullsh't].
The faggots in Washington are going to blow the American rep around the World,
the cheap bitches! Here the N Alliance walks all the way down to Kabel in bare feet
to take the city & what do we give them, nada.
You don't want them in the city throw a party at the airport. Open a PX for our
friends so when a black market springs up [it will], we can control it.
When a GI showed up in a town in WWII, he had cigaretes,gum chocolate,
silk stockings. Now in Afganistan a GI shows up
they're lucky if he's not gay & trying to screw their kids, he don't smoke, ,let the kids buy their own gum, & he can't be bothered
chocolate rots his teeth
to have anything nice to trade. with the girls.
Technology, these buttheads lack basic social skills. Bring something with you
when you visit.
P>Dear War Department seeing three soldiers standing in the midst of
friendly civilians; with weapons at port arms is ridiculous,I am ashamed. & that
dumb pack on their backs, dear Jesus, what is a helicopter crewman going to do
with a backpack. We are going into another damn Viet Nam, a bunch of jerks
pulling us into a phoney situation where our guys are geting killed for no damned
reason.
Free Mason bastards screwing our war efforts.I would like to know how
come a world wide international secret society with a dossier on all of us
doesn't know who killed Kennedy or who's putting Anthrax in our mail? They
certainly got our positions to the North Koreans fast enough.
Yo Dubya, you promised us the weapons to win this war.We need Napalm; ,repair teams etc.You might not believe this
Daisy cutters make their point nicely but napalm will make a cave entrance too
hot for days, Cobra gunships; a silent presence that will make surprise atacks
foolhardy, seismic detectors; to pick up arms smuggling, like on the Mexican
border , industrial lasers to harrass aggressor forces while not killing civilian
hostages[remember the hostage of today is tomorrow's consumer]. security
cameras, mounted on totally inaccessile mountain ridges, to survail for road hits,
bandits,etc;Harleys, snowmobiles,powergliders,dunebuggies, to impress the natives,
& overcome terrain obstacles, service,
but secret locations that a guy wouldn't reveal for 25000000 bucks might
pass between friends on a couple of bikes.
This is just a case of an overanxious radio station reporting innuendo without checking facts.
The real story was that Wil Wheaton's career is dead. The actor is alive, well, and unemployed.
One of the hallmarks of International Development is the impact that western "aid" has on "undeveloped" communities. The effect of introducing new crops, for example, might mean people spend less time farming, thus needing other work to do, etc. The impact can be huge.
However, i digress. You were talking about imposing the UN decleration of human rights on Afghanistan (citing cultural examples of Amish and Orthodox Jews). That said, here is the difference: an Amish or Orthodox Jewish Woman in the US or Canada or Sweden (or Israel or any democratic free country) can choose wether or not to observe their religion. IE, the state does not force anything upon them, they have a choice of weather to dress modestly, pray seperately from men, etc. In afghanistan, the women had no such choice. If a woman there sees fit to wear a burqa and not learn and stay in the house, thats her choice. However, any woman who does not want to should be able to choose not to. THATS THE UN DECLARATION. We aren't forcing anything but the freedom to choose on opposed people.
-Michael Roy
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
You are the biggest fucking moron Katz... are you dumb enough to believe this shit?
This guy's got holes in his story you could drive a fucking mack truck through.
You can just go fuck Taco up the ass... hang on.. Taco is too good for a prick like you.
FUCK OFF!
This message is brought to you by the Tampax Tampon once shoved up Taco's ass.
Merry Fucking Christmas
This guy speaks the truth!
Fucking genius!
This weekend, a movie theater and video store opened up again in Kabul (renting Independence Day)
;-)
Independence Day! Rhaaaa! Please Taliban, come back
This is the biggest heap of CRAP I've EVER read on slashdot!
*ugh*
Remember it works because we all want to believe the best. I think it's rather encouraging in America that while we've been attacked, we still search for the best in human nature.
FOr all those who are whinging about the possibility of a hoax, and of Katz' integrity, let us not forget the very first sentence of this article :
"An open information society is inevitable."
A plain and simple statement, predicting the future. This clearly marks Katz' bias from the word go, I really would like to see journalism I read showing integrity and objectivity, not sensationalism and techno-freedom-evangelism.
Slashdot Human Resources staffers take note.
Even given the potential for rapid piracy everywhere on earth, I fail to see how a video rental store could spring up overnight; you'd need to have trucked in a lot of blank tape, and spent a lot of time dubbing, at least.
...and if the US brought in such things as some sort of goodwill effort- Independence Day? Where the aliens nearly succeed in invading and destroying the planet? Er, okay, whatever.
Hell, maybe it's true- let's see the original mail, or better, some photos from those webcams we dropped along with the videos...
thats some sick shit there, mister
Ever seen a frog dropped into boiling water? He jumps right out! Now drop him in cold water and turn on th eheat - he'll happily sit there till he's par boiled and DEAD. The frog is yu with your head in the sand.
Do you even have any idea what behaviour is considered illegal? You may think you do but you may be VERY surprised one day. In states like Virginia they're passing laws that give strength to those damned shrinkwrap licenses. Since you're not a criminal and don't intend ever to be one I'm sure you read those right? How about the DMCA - have you ever READ that piece of legislation? Did you know it contains a provision specifically to protect the design of boat hulls? Yup, "Huh?!" is exactly what I said when this was pointed out to me. The DMCA session at DEFCON was most interesting, a more F*CKED law I've never seen - it contradicts itself in several places and even redefines "fair use".
How about the new "Anti-Terrorism" bills that have been passed recently. Any ideas what they have to say? Sure you've never broken any of the laws you don't know about? How come John Ashcroft has ignored SIX letters by a congressional subcomitee inquiring about these "new powers" to testify? We've had more than one THOUSAND people locked up since 9/11 who haven't been charged - seems you might not actually HAVE to break a law to be held. But hey, you'll never raise suspicion right? No chance you might not piss off someone at random who might be able to give you attention you don't deserve right? I could even be as simple as cutting off the wrong person in traffic if the abuse gets too bad.
Tell you what, you're obviously a good responsible citizen who votes and as a Slashdot reader you probably don't much like the DMCA. Why don't you go find out if your representative voted for that law so you'll know what to do come next election. What's that? It was passed on a voice vote* and you can't find out who voted for it? Gee, I guess things aren't quite as bright and cheery in your world as you thought huh?
*FWIW, I've been told that the DMCA was and was NOT voice voted depending upon who I've spoken to about it - it could be FUD. I have no doubt though that getting a rep to explain clearly their position on this piece of garbage to a constituant would be difficult. Som of the tacked on provisions to that law are a joke! The boat hull thing is a good example of this.
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
He hid a commodore. "How can he hook up to the net and play video and blah blah blah!"
:P
:) Maybe you can clear up some of the 'fuzzier' points for people though.
Most people who had 'em hid cd players and such as well.
CD > Commodore.
It stands to reason that.. *gasp* Yes! They have more than Commodores over there!
Ever think that he's upgraded? I mean, a government just got toppled.. Free loot!
He may have just hid the Commodore because that's what he used back in the day. I'd love to still have my Commodore in working order..
Anyway, good story, Katz. Can't believe I'm saying that.
How the hell could someone get on the internet there? They all live in caves for one! Come on, this has to be a fake.
We know we're being off topic making a comment about a post some of us think is funny, or almost funny, but do you really have to moderate EVERY GODDAMN POST AS -1 ???
Just leave it our Anoncowards at 0 and try to find something insightful new post to moderate up... I saw a couple you fuckers missed...
I usually meta-moderate against fuckers like you, and I suggest everybody else should who likes to relax a little...
See me other post...
For those 3rd parties ACTUALLY reading this. This is how NOT to moderate. Anonymous Coward's comments aren't seen anyway, so just find insightful fucking comments that never get modded up rather than waisting your moderation points on stupid comments that are already rated low enough...
PS, Flamebait is a comment that does nothing but anger people, causing people to flame (angry/intense responses), thus waisting people's time.
wrong idea of afghanistan. sure is very poor now materially. but was not always the case. there were several highly educated persons in cities, also dont be under (misunderestimated)impression about how people tackle repression and restrictions. there are now several cybercafes. why do you assume the guy is a turbaned bearded village idiot with a gun. (afghan redneck).
...and another thing...whats the price of the drug in the usa. some of them have lots of money, just dont flaunt it. katz may be right for all you know. ask some afghan students and check.
the assholes moderating everything as offtopic.
What exactly do you sell worldwide, Mr. Sales?
I was out of town yesterday and didn't get to read all of these posts till last nite.. Thanks for them..Some responses:
l. Yes, I am quite certain I haven't been had. Junis has been e-mailing me since my Hotwired days, and if he unveiled a plot to deceive me, it's pretty complex and worthy of Le Carre. Lots of people posting are pretty assertive opinions about e-mail from Kabul, but as is often the case with people who know nothing, they are the most enthusiastic about demonstrating it. Many individuals, agencies, foreign and domestic in Afghanistan have been on the Net through the conflict and getting online is not a huge deal with the relatively affluent middle-class survivors around Kabul. I am quite confident about Junis's identity (but for obvious reasons, don't want to dwell on it), and that his e-mail is also genuine.
2. Some of you have kindly offered to send money. He didn't ask for any and doesn't want any.
3. A huge number of people have e-mailed me asking if he might do a Q and A..I'm sure he would, and I think it's a great idea. I'll try and set it up.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Adilkno
Hardware, Software, Wetware
"If someone wants to talk about a New World Order without taking virtual reality
into consideration, they'd better keep quiet." - John Sjerpstra
Contact between the wet and the dry is a risky business, fraught with dangers.
In practice these vary from a glass of juice in the toaster, a finger in an
electric socket, a burst water main, to the collision of swelling passions with
sober incomprehension. With its thin skin, hard bones and sticky fluids, the
human body can be reasonably well defined as a problematic water management
system whose boundaries are fluid. This aquanomy is marked again and again by
pieces of cloth and scent markers as well as equipped with colorants and an aura
of ramshackle social codes. These serve to prevent personal overflows from
getting out of hand and to cover up little accidents.
The closer we get to machines, the more wet zones are reclaimed. Depending on
how technology approaches the body, boundaries are laid and erotic zones
defined. Shifts may be read through clothing fashions, the dress of the poor wet
slob who these days goes through life neatly and properly swaddled as a "Euro-
citizen". At the end of the 20th century we see this thinking bio-pump being
slung back and forth, panting and spluttering, between wet and dry, loose and
fixed, fleeting and firm, intoxication and reason, static and signal, suddenly
functional in the electronic environment. The watering and steaming Mensch
factor has shocking effects on the machinery. The unavoidable contact between
the wet finger and the keyboard has sparked a technological civilization
offensive. Economy comes down more and more to the tightest possible interweave
between social structures and electronic circuits.
Until recently, sexual boundaries marked the danger zones. Because of this there
had to be, for example, separate ladies' and gentlemen's fashion. This necessity
has disappeared, and power is reaching for other means of styling fears and desires, while changing form itself. Fascist power was once a bulwark of sexual
metaphors which could be reduced to one's own firm soil and pure, flowing blood.
Divisions on grounds of sex and race were intended to destroy hybrids, and had
political and military consequences.
The antifascist Cold War which followed lasted long enough for racist and sexist
thinking to bleed to death. The body politics of this era, now over, were
characterized by the conditioning of the body on the new machines, which were no longer driven mechanically but electronically. Space travel furnished the basic
model for electronic clothing, which, like power itself, has its attractive side
as well as its frightening one. The first astronauts were animals, plastered
with electrodes to register the reactions of the biological water management
system. The futuristic spacesuit, in contrast, glittered and shone as prototype
of the electronic New Order. The cosmic costume withstood the new dangerous conditions and came out shining, offered freedom of movement, provided
protection, and guaranteed communication besides. This required a retraining of
the body, which no longer came under the regime of religion or politics, but
under the supervision of science. Extraterrestrial space travel, it turned out,
was not an invention which would become available to the consumer after a
developmental phase, but an experiment to test the body's reactions in an
electronic situation under extreme conditions. Here, too, the clothing was not
only outward show but dressage, and made it clear to the world population via
the media what it means to be connected to a computer. The extraordinary quality
of this superhuman performance in extraterrestrial space convinced humanity, the
folks left at home, of the resounding success a sojourn into electronic space
could have.
After the explosion of the Challenger and the end of the dream of space, the way
was made clear for ordinary mass production of the spacesuit. It has been
redubbed the datasuit, with an introductory bonus known as the data glove. This awkward outfit provides the data worker with a fascinating going-out costume,
with which he can dress up any location with any identity. It lets him get
acquainted in a pleasant and noncommittal way with the new power type of the New Order. The premises of this are as follows: as commuter traffic dissolves and
national borders blur, we are entering a clean, dust-free, sterile, medicinal
space, which generates its own conception of dirt. Analagous to the danger zones
in the era of sexual power, the thing now is the banishment of threats to the
electronic condition. Classics like narcotic drugs, stupefying liquors and
suffocating hazes of smoke appear as hot items of the reclamation politics which
are spreading the New Order worldwide. This politics demands a strict anti-
intoxication diet, if you want to ascend into hallucinogenic dataspace.
Otherwise you'll lose the necessary concentration, and produce static.
What's new about the electronic condition is the sitting still and the
minimalization of biomechanical labour. This fundamental modification in the
human water condition, which just like the Delta Plan could only have been
realized under Cold War relations, causes a potential adjustment static in the
introduction phase of digital hegemony which is combatted by an aerodynamic
exercise program. The motorized Citybike as a fashion is an integral component
of data policy, and isn't ridden by health devotees in fluorescent spacesuits
for not- hing. Unlike the profligate yuppies of the 80s, the Euro-citizens of
the 90s strive for total moderation: of their own nutritional and media diet as
well as in government spending. The subsidy tap to them symbolizes waste, in
flagrant contradiction to their recycling mania and investment sense.
These cosy cocooners enjoy the freedom to stay at home and their greatest
concern is the data roof over their heads. Refugees, who can't be traced in the
files, are supposed to stay in their own area, or otherwise the UN and the EC
with their developmental armies will lend them a helping hand. "If you people
don't want any humanitarian aid, we'll shoot." The underlying motive for this
military intervention is making global connections, which span the globe like a metastructure, healthy. To facilitate further expansion and innovation, those
who are switched-off and dataless must keep quiet and stay in their own places.
If necessary their ghettos and their written-off social wastelands are sealed
shut by electronic security.
Hardware, software, wetware are the three forms which the human/machine can take
in the era of the New World Order. This trinity possesses its own geographical
and historical coordinates. The hardware on which we play out all our culture and communication comes from Japan. The programs which make it possible for us
to read, see and hear all this precious data come from the United States. And
finally, the role of Europe is to deliver the necessary cultural products for shipment. Wetware's task is to cough up culture, which will be run on the
Japanese hardware with the help of American software. In this international
division of labour, what is expected of Europe is that she properly administer
the legacy of Bach and Beethoven, maintain the paintings of Rembrandt and Van
Gogh, and extend the Shakespeare-through-Beckett theatre tradition into the
future. This is just as true for the media art which has appeared over the last
few decades. The Europeans must figure out what things of beauty can be coaxed
out of all this new equipment, for there is little pleasure to be derived from
the functional use of the technology. Art is only charmed into being when the
equipment is connected to the history of art, to philosophy and literature and
those typically human charac- ter traits which have become European hallmarks.
This is the lot which the Europeans, after so many blunders in this twen- tieth
century, have called down upon themselves. Wetware means that we are condemned
to making culture which avails itself of technical tools which have been
designed by others. This need not be a subordinate position. On the contrary: a
great deal is expected of us! What, after all, is a laptop computer with a word-
processing program without all the wonderful stories that are written on it? Or
a synthesizer without experimental compositions?
Wetware is a body attached to machines. Wetware means that we have long been
connected to the machines surrounding us; something which, as in the case of
television, affords us a great deal of pleasure as well. If it's up to wetware, submission to the machines, as predicted by Orwell in 1984, need not be so
dramatically represented. It need not result in slavish submission, for wetware
has a secret weapon up its sleeve: its human, all too human, traits. The
nickname "wetware" is an homage to the do-it-yourselfer who tries to make the
best of things but always forgets the instructions. Flaws are deployed to
safeguard dignity. Through ignorance, the urge to sabotage, and unbridled
creativity, technology always goes haywire; from these accidents the most
beautiful freaks spring forth, and after aesthetic treatment are effortlessly
declared art. To wetware the user is not a remnant or something suppressed, but
a born hobbyist who can hook together any old or new media into a personal
reality, where an error message is at the beginning of a long series of resounding successes. The term wetware was coined by Rudy Rucker. He defines it
as a collection of technological innovations: chips which are implanted in the
brain, organ transplants and prostheses that replace or extend bodily functions.
Unlike Rucker, adilkno considers the wetware idea not as a following phase to
upset the wobbly self-image yet again after the revolutions in hard- and soft-
ware, but as the "human remnant" who stays behind as the extensions go on longer
and longer trips.
At the end of the twentieth century, the autonomous individual trying to bring
his gushing fears and desires into balance has come to stand in the shadow of
the technological imperative. Managing or throwing open the channels appears to
be dictated to a high degree on the available equipment. Wetware is conscious of
this dependence and thus sees itself not as a potentate that rules over the
machines, but as a watery appendage that must adjust as well as it can to the
digital conditions of electronic data traffic.
Acknowledgment of the technological a priori should not be confused with the
hype which always arises when a new system comes on the market. The buzz
generated by the new equipment creates an amnesia that results in a familiar pattern: the short-term effects of a technology are overestimated, while the
long-term effects are given short shrift. It is characteristic of wetware to
soak in a bubble bath of simulacra, and lose sight of the military prehistory of communications technology and of the nefarious plans being hatched by
technocrats and marketing divisions. Wetware lets itself be easily fasci- nated
and is not so quick to criticize when something new presents itself. We have
become accustomed to the continual introduction of new products and techniques.
A cycle is slowly becoming apparent: after a phase of rumours and spectacular
presentations, the first lucky few get to show off the gadgets, and critics have
a free- for-all. Only then can there be acceptance by society and a market large
enough for capital to be interested. The new technologies cunningly present
themsel- ves in the form of fashion and then fade into obscurity. This has
recently happened with Minitel, video phones and mind machines. At the moment it
is "virtual reality's" turn to make technological dreams material. Until now VR
has been no more than one big flood of rumours for wetware. The global village
where the techno-artists live has been turned upside down for a few years now:
something big was supposed to happen...a megasystem was on its way that would
nullify and engulf all media productions manufactured up to now, and suck on
wetware like no other before.
In the "out-of-body" experiments conducted in high-tech laboratories, VR has
been described as a "doorway to other worlds." The distance between us and the
screen becomes nil and we enter a "mental environment." VR is the "ultimate human-computer interface" (Rheingold) which encompasses all bodily movements and
requires not even fingers nimble enough to operate a keyboard. VR (potentially)
takes possession of the whole body in order to let the mind travel as far as
possible. While all the senses, in the maximum state of titil- lation, are
undertaking exhausting expeditions, the physical body remains behind in the
"non-virtual world". Because all VR efforts are focused on the conquest of the
sixth continent, the part that stays behind is temporarily overlooked. But then
the wetware factor reports and returns to its own "tele-existence" as a "human
bug". This is the instant at which wetware actually appears as a form. Despite hysterical stories of the instantaneous omnipresence of the zapping body in the
live broadcast and the dissolution of locality as a natural milieu for the
process of ego formation, the media user still stands up at regular intervals to
grab a beer or take a piss. These moments of absence from the media do not occur
in the cyberspace myth. In it, the body is in fact an abandoned station, and
life is tantamount to data travel and digital immortality. Wetware finds this a
fascinating thought, but laughs loudly, because something always gets in the
way. The wet mensch recognizes himself for the first time as an equal
counterpartner to the immaterial sphere. The wetware story begins as soon as it
is clear that technology cannot live with or without the human.
After the presentation of VR a Babylonian misunderstanding arose over what the
consequences of this next techno revolution would be. The first report: the
cyberpunk world portrayed by William Gibson would come true. Succeeding reports
told us that the matrix a la Gibson, where the most intense hallucinations could
be had, was still fiction: virtual reality in its infancy was nothing but a
simple computer animation of a building or landscape in which you could rather jerkily look around. But even this disillusionment, which was reserved for the
few who had gotten the chance to wear the VR helmet and the data glove, could
not squelch the hype. By publicly distancing himself from the evangelization of Timothy Leary and other electronic cowboys of the VR business, Gibson narrowly
prevented his term "cyberspace" from being tacked onto assorted carnival
attractions. By Gibson's definition, cyberspace is more a neo-space where social fiction about human and machine unfolds than the name of a new technology. The
first commercial applications were simply much too clean for the sopping
cyberpunks.
The first VR systems are already in operation on Wall Street, in the arcades of
the amusement industry, in medical laboratories, in architects' offices and at
NASA. These are not especially places where techno-artists, hackers and cyberpunks tend to have admittance. Thus, for wetware VR remains no more than a
fleeting item about which exciting science fiction and hefty volumes are written
and critical documentaries are aired. So far the public market is nowhere to be
found. To reassure the folks in the street, John Barlow, head of the consumers'
association Electronic Frontier Foundation, has proposed to stretch the
definition of VR and bring it closer to the people by defining already existing electronic data traffic as part of cyberspace. He is trying to achieve a legal
breakthrough by declaring this new imaginary zone free from copyright. Since,
according to him, cyberspace is transnational, an international constitution for information ought to be drawn up.
Now that computer hackers in the United States are followed by the CIA and the
FBI, are slapped with hefty fines and are getting locked up, association with
the world of virtual reality looks like an attractive option for hauling the
hacking movement out of the repressive corner. Barlow's reasoning blames the
problem on a fundamental lack of understanding about the current technological
developments on the part of the authorities. Big names from the software world
ought to call a halt to criminalization. But the question is how much we can
expect from their end. Dreams of a great coalition between the upcoming VR
giants and cyberpunks seem a bit naive. Even inside the small world of the VR
pioneers, a tacky war is raging over copyrighting of the names given to the
homemade projects. On the Electronic Frontier big capital and military interests
silently recede into the background.
Is it wetware's task to fill VR with European Kulturgut, as Jeffrey Shaw has
done in his Legible City, where he connects the Dutch bicycle to the city maps
of European cities like New York and Amsterdam via VR? This classic wetware strategy turns high-tech into art again by splicing the newest medium to a
quaint, ecological and sweaty means of transport. The continental approach to
technology always has an eye for the funny sides of the Human Flaw. For if the human bug is not treated with respect, the buckets are poised ready to cool off
the the new medium. The new monsters must not be understood as a threat from
outside, but made to dance in the new space. William Gibson articulated this insight in the phrase, "There's weird shit happening in the matrix," and had
Voodoo Loa trot through cyberspace on a horse.
A more realistic approach is the idea of virtual sex: safe as well as filthy.
You have to understand the pornographic dimen- sion of a medium to be able to
make it a success. The Dutch telephone company had to conclude that its introduction of the teleconference was a flop, until this same switchboard
connection on the 06 "partylines" made the wildest fantasies reality. The
question immediately popped up in virtual reality too: was sex good there, and
which body parts get the nicest stimulation? Wetware won't get excited about a
slicker design for the personal cognitive cluster. What's important is whether
mistakes can be made in virtual reality and what kind of Faustian and/or
Dionysian chain reactions they cause. Culture is always the consequence of
decline, decadence, clumsy manouevres and misconceptions. Technology must
establish itself inside it, and not make out to rise above it in order to
magically evoke the Higher. Only then can there be a fusion between wetware and
its hard- and software.
no copyright 2001 textz.com - no rights reserved
Those who by valorous ways become princes, like these men, acquire a
principality with difficulty, but they keep it with ease. The
difficulties they have in acquiring it rise in part from the new rules
and methods which they are forced to introduce to establish their
government and its security. And it ought to be remembered that there
is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct,
or more uncertain in its success, then to take the lead in the
introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for
enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and
lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This
coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws
on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not
readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of
them. Thus it happens that whenever those who are hostile have the
opportunity to attack they do it like partisans, whilst the others
defend lukewarmly, in such wise that the prince is endangered along
with them.
It is necessary, therefore, if we desire to discuss this matter
thoroughly, to inquire whether these innovators can rely on themselves
or have to depend on others: that is to say, whether, to consummate
their enterprise, have they to use prayers or can they use force? In
the first instance they always succeed badly, and never compass
anything; but when they can rely on themselves and use force, then
they are rarely endangered. Hence it is that all armed prophets have
conquered, and the unarmed ones have been destroyed. Besides the
reasons mentioned, the nature of the people is variable, and whilst it
is easy to persuade them, it is difficult to fix them in that
persuasion. And thus it is necessary to take such measures that, when
they believe no longer, it may be possible to make them believe by
force.
If Moses, Cyrus, Theseus, and Romulus had been unarmed they could not
have enforced their constitutions for long--as happened in our time to
Fra Girolamo Savonarola, who was ruined with his new order of things
immediately the multitude believed in him no longer, and he had no
means of keeping steadfast those who believed or of making the
unbelievers to believe. Therefore such as these have great
difficulties in consummating their enterprise, for all their dangers
are in the ascent, yet with ability they will overcome them; but when
these are overcome, and those who envied them their success are
exterminated, they will begin to be respected, and they will continue
afterwards powerful, secure, honoured, and happy.
To these great examples I wish to add a lesser one; still it bears
some resemblance to them, and I wish it to suffice me for all of a
like kind: it is Hiero the Syracusan.[*] This man rose from a private
station to be Prince of Syracuse, nor did he, either, owe anything to
fortune but opportunity; for the Syracusans, being oppressed, chose
him for their captain, afterwards he was rewarded by being made their
prince. He was of so great ability, even as a private citizen, that
one who writes of him says he wanted nothing but a kingdom to be a
king. This man abolished the old soldiery, organized the new, gave up
old alliances, made new ones; and as he had his own soldiers and
allies, on such foundations he was able to build any edifice: thus,
whilst he had endured much trouble in acquiring, he had but little in
keeping.
[*] Hiero II, born about 307 B.C., died 216 B.C.
CHAPTER VII
CONCERNING NEW PRINCIPALITIES WHICH ARE ACQUIRED EITHER
BY THE ARMS OF OTHERS OR BY GOOD FORTUNE
Those who solely by good fortune become princes from being private
citizens have little trouble in rising, but much in keeping atop; they
have not any difficulties on the way up, because they fly, but they
have many when they reach the summit. Such are those to whom some
state is given either for money or by the favour of him who bestows
it; as happened to many in Greece, in the cities of Ionia and of the
Hellespont, where princes were made by Darius, in order that they
might hold the cities both for his security and his glory; as also
were those emperors who, by the corruption of the soldiers, from being
citizens came to empire. Such stand simply elevated upon the goodwill
and the fortune of him who has elevated them--two most inconstant and
unstable things. Neither have they the knowledge requisite for the
position; because, unless they are men of great worth and ability, it
is not reasonable to expect that they should know how to command,
having always lived in a private condition; besides, they cannot hold
it because they have not forces which they can keep friendly and
faithful.
States that rise unexpectedly, then, like all other things in nature
which are born and grow rapidly, cannot leave their foundations and
correspondencies[*] fixed in such a way that the first storm will not
overthrow them; unless, as is said, those who unexpectedly become
princes are men of so much ability that they know they have to be
prepared at once to hold that which fortune has thrown into their
laps, and that those foundations, which others have laid BEFORE they
became princes, they must lay AFTERWARDS.
[*] "Le radici e corrispondenze," their roots (i.e. foundations) and
correspondencies or relations with other states--a common meaning
of "correspondence" and "correspondency" in the sixteenth and
seventeenth centuries.
Concerning these two methods of rising to be a prince by ability or
fortune, I wish to adduce two examples within our own recollection,
and these are Francesco Sforza[*] and Cesare Borgia. Francesco, by
proper means and with great ability, from being a private person rose
to be Duke of Milan, and that which he had acquired with a thousand
anxieties he kept with little trouble. On the other hand, Cesare
Borgia, called by the people Duke Valentino, acquired his state during
the ascendancy of his father, and on its decline he lost it,
notwithstanding that he had taken every measure and done all that
ought to be done by a wise and able man to fix firmly his roots in the
states which the arms and fortunes of others had bestowed on him.
[*] Francesco Sforza, born 1401, died 1466. He married Bianca Maria
Visconti, a natural daughter of Filippo Visconti, the Duke of
Milan, on whose death he procured his own elevation to the duchy.
Machiavelli was the accredited agent of the Florentine Republic to
Cesare Borgia (1478-1507) during the transactions which led up to
the assassinations of the Orsini and Vitelli at Sinigalia, and
along with his letters to his chiefs in Florence he has left an
account, written ten years before "The Prince," of the proceedings
of the duke in his "Descritione del modo tenuto dal duca Valentino
nello ammazzare Vitellozzo Vitelli," etc., a translation of which
is appended to the present work.
Because, as is stated above, he who has not first laid his foundations
may be able with great ability to lay them afterwards, but they will
be laid with trouble to the architect and danger to the building. If,
therefore, all the steps taken by the duke be considered, it will be
seen that he laid solid foundations for his future power, and I do not
consider it superfluous to discuss them, because I do not know what
better precepts to give a new prince than the example of his actions;
and if his dispositions were of no avail, that was not his fault, but
the extraordinary and extreme malignity of fortune.
Alexander the Sixth, in wishing to aggrandize the duke, his son, had
many immediate and prospective difficulties. Firstly, he did not see
his way to make him master of any state that was not a state of the
Church; and if he was willing to rob the Church he knew that the Duke
of Milan and the Venetians would not consent, because Faenza and
Rimini were already under the protection of the Venetians. Besides
this, he saw the arms of Italy, especially those by which he might
have been assisted, in hands that would fear the aggrandizement of the
Pope, namely, the Orsini and the Colonnesi and their following. It
behoved him, therefore, to upset this state of affairs and embroil the
powers, so as to make himself securely master of part of their states.
This was easy for him to do, because he found the Venetians, moved by
other reasons, inclined to bring back the French into Italy; he would
not only not oppose this, but he would render it more easy by
dissolving the former marriage of King Louis. Therefore the king came
into Italy with the assistance of the Venetians and the consent of
Alexander. He was no sooner in Milan than the Pope had soldiers from
him for the attempt on the Romagna, which yielded to him on the
reputation of the king. The duke, therefore, having acquired the
Romagna and beaten the Colonnesi, while wishing to hold that and to
advance further, was hindered by two things: the one, his forces did
not appear loyal to him, the other, the goodwill of France: that is to
say, he feared that the forces of the Orsini, which he was using,
would not stand to him, that not only might they hinder him from
winning more, but might themselves seize what he had won, and that the
king might also do the same. Of the Orsini he had a warning when,
after taking Faenza and attacking Bologna, he saw them go very
unwillingly to that attack. And as to the king, he learned his mind
when he himself, after taking the Duchy of Urbino, attacked Tuscany,
and the king made him desist from that undertaking; hence the duke
decided to depend no more upon the arms and the luck of others.
For the first thing he weakened the Orsini and Colonnesi parties in
Rome, by gaining to himself all their adherents who were gentlemen,
making them his gentlemen, giving them good pay, and, according to
their rank, honouring them with office and command in such a way that
in a few months all attachment to the factions was destroyed and
turned entirely to the duke. After this he awaited an opportunity to
crush the Orsini, having scattered the adherents of the Colonna house.
This came to him soon and he used it well; for the Orsini, perceiving
at length that the aggrandizement of the duke and the Church was ruin
to them, called a meeting of the Magione in Perugia. From this sprung
the rebellion at Urbino and the tumults in the Romagna, with endless
dangers to the duke, all of which he overcame with the help of the
French. Having restored his authority, not to leave it at risk by
trusting either to the French or other outside forces, he had recourse
to his wiles, and he knew so well how to conceal his mind that, by the
mediation of Signor Pagolo--whom the duke did not fail to secure with
all kinds of attention, giving him money, apparel, and horses--the
Orsini were reconciled, so that their simplicity brought them into his
power at Sinigalia.[*] Having exterminated the leaders, and turned
their partisans into his friends, the duke laid sufficiently good
foundations to his power, having all the Romagna and the Duchy of
Urbino; and the people now beginning to appreciate their prosperity,
he gained them all over to himself. And as this point is worthy of
notice, and to be imitated by others, I am not willing to leave it
out.
[*] Sinigalia, 31st December 1502.
When the duke occupied the Romagna he found it under the rule of weak
masters, who rather plundered their subjects than ruled them, and gave
them more cause for disunion than for union, so that the country was
full of robbery, quarrels, and every kind of violence; and so, wishing
to bring back peace and obedience to authority, he considered it
necessary to give it a good governor. Thereupon he promoted Messer
Ramiro d'Orco,[*] a swift and cruel man, to whom he gave the fullest
power. This man in a short time restored peace and unity with the
greatest success. Afterwards the duke considered that it was not
advisable to confer such excessive authority, for he had no doubt but
that he would become odious, so he set up a court of judgment in the
country, under a most excellent president, wherein all cities had
their advocates. And because he knew that the past severity had caused
some hatred against himself, so, to clear himself in the minds of the
people, and gain them entirely to himself, he desired to show that, if
any cruelty had been practised, it had not originated with him, but in
the natural sternness of the minister. Under this pretence he took
Ramiro, and one morning caused him to be executed and left on the
piazza at Cesena with the block and a bloody knife at his side. The
barbarity of this spectacle caused the people to be at once satisfied
and dismayed.
[*] Ramiro d'Orco. Ramiro de Lorqua.
But let us return whence we started. I say that the duke, finding
himself now sufficiently powerful and partly secured from immediate
dangers by having armed himself in his own way, and having in a great
measure crushed those forces in his vicinity that could injure him if
he wished to proceed with his conquest, had next to consider France,
for he knew that the king, who too late was aware of his mistake,
would not support him. And from this time he began to seek new
alliances and to temporize with France in the expedition which she was
making towards the kingdom of Naples against the Spaniards who were
besieging Gaeta. It was his intention to secure himself against them,
and this he would have quickly accomplished had Alexander lived.
Such was his line of action as to present affairs. But as to the
future he had to fear, in the first place, that a new successor to the
Church might not be friendly to him and might seek to take from him
that which Alexander had given him, so he decided to act in four ways.
Firstly, by exterminating the families of those lords whom he had
despoiled, so as to take away that pretext from the Pope. Secondly, by
winning to himself all the gentlemen of Rome, so as to be able to curb
the Pope with their aid, as has been observed. Thirdly, by converting
the college more to himself. Fourthly, by acquiring so much power
before the Pope should die that he could by his own measures resist
the first shock. Of these four things, at the death of Alexander, he
had accomplished three. For he had killed as many of the dispossessed
lords as he could lay hands on, and few had escaped; he had won over
the Roman gentlemen, and he had the most numerous party in the
college. And as to any fresh acquisition, he intended to become master
of Tuscany, for he already possessed Perugia and Piombino, and Pisa
was under his protection. And as he had no longer to study France (for
the French were already driven out of the kingdom of Naples by the
Spaniards, and in this way both were compelled to buy his goodwill),
he pounced down upon Pisa. After this, Lucca and Siena yielded at
once, partly through hatred and partly through fear of the
Florentines; and the Florentines would have had no remedy had he
continued to prosper, as he was prospering the year that Alexander
died, for he had acquired so much power and reputation that he would
have stood by himself, and no longer have depended on the luck and the
forces of others, but solely on his own power and ability.
But Alexander died five years after he had first drawn the sword. He
left the duke with the state of Romagna alone consolidated, with the
rest in the air, between two most powerful hostile armies, and sick
unto death. Yet there were in the duke such boldness and ability, and
he knew so well how men are to be won or lost, and so firm were the
foundations which in so short a time he had laid, that if he had not
had those armies on his back, or if he had been in good health, he
would have overcome all difficulties. And it is seen that his
foundations were good, for the Romagna awaited him for more than a
month. In Rome, although but half alive, he remained secure; and
whilst the Baglioni, the Vitelli, and the Orsini might come to Rome,
they could not effect anything against him. If he could not have made
Pope him whom he wished, at least the one whom he did not wish would
not have been elected. But if he had been in sound health at the death
of Alexander,[*] everything would have been different to him. On the
day that Julius the Second[+] was elected, he told me that he had
thought of everything that might occur at the death of his father, and
had provided a remedy for all, except that he had never anticipated
that, when the death did happen, he himself would be on the point to
die.
[*] Alexander VI died of fever, 18th August 1503.
[+] Julius II was Giuliano della Rovere, Cardinal of San Pietro ad
Vincula, born 1443, died 1513.
CHAPTER X
CONCERNING THE WAY IN WHICH THE STRENGTH OF ALL PRINCIPALITIES
OUGHT TO BE MEASURED
It is necessary to consider another point in examining the character
of these principalities: that is, whether a prince has such power
that, in case of need, he can support himself with his own resources,
or whether he has always need of the assistance of others. And to make
this quite clear I say that I consider those who are able to support
themselves by their own resources who can, either by abundance of men
or money, raise a sufficient army to join battle against any one who
comes to attack them; and I consider those always to have need of
others who cannot show themselves against the enemy in the field, but
are forced to defend themselves by sheltering behind walls. The first
case has been discussed, but we will speak of it again should it
recur. In the second case one can say nothing except to encourage such
princes to provision and fortify their towns, and not on any account
to defend the country. And whoever shall fortify his town well, and
shall have managed the other concerns of his subjects in the way
stated above, and to be often repeated, will never be attacked without
great caution, for men are always adverse to enterprises where
difficulties can be seen, and it will be seen not to be an easy thing
to attack one who has his town well fortified, and is not hated by his
people.
The cities of Germany are absolutely free, they own but little country
around them, and they yield obedience to the emperor when it suits
them, nor do they fear this or any other power they may have near
them, because they are fortified in such a way that every one thinks
the taking of them by assault would be tedious and difficult, seeing
they have proper ditches and walls, they have sufficient artillery,
and they always keep in public depots enough for one year's eating,
drinking, and firing. And beyond this, to keep the people quiet and
without loss to the state, they always have the means of giving work
to the community in those labours that are the life and strength of
the city, and on the pursuit of which the people are supported; they
also hold military exercises in repute, and moreover have many
ordinances to uphold them.
Therefore, a prince who has a strong city, and had not made himself
odious, will not be attacked, or if any one should attack he will only
be driven off with disgrace; again, because that the affairs of this
world are so changeable, it is almost impossible to keep an army a
whole year in the field without being interfered with. And whoever
should reply: If the people have property outside the city, and see it
burnt, they will not remain patient, and the long siege and self-
interest will make them forget their prince; to this I answer that a
powerful and courageous prince will overcome all such difficulties by
giving at one time hope to his subjects that the evil will not be for
long, at another time fear of the cruelty of the enemy, then
preserving himself adroitly from those subjects who seem to him to be
too bold.
Further, the enemy would naturally on his arrival at once burn and
ruin the country at the time when the spirits of the people are still
hot and ready for the defence; and, therefore, so much the less ought
the prince to hesitate; because after a time, when spirits have
cooled, the damage is already done, the ills are incurred, and there
is no longer any remedy; and therefore they are so much the more ready
to unite with their prince, he appearing to be under obligations to
them now that their houses have been burnt and their possessions
ruined in his defence. For it is the nature of men to be bound by the
benefits they confer as much as by those they receive. Therefore, if
everything is well considered, it will not be difficult for a wise
prince to keep the minds of his citizens steadfast from first to last,
when he does not fail to support and defend them.
CHAPTER XI
CONCERNING ECCLESIASTICAL PRINCIPALITIES
It only remains now to speak of ecclesiastical principalities,
touching which all difficulties are prior to getting possession,
because they are acquired either by capacity or good fortune, and they
can be held without either; for they are sustained by the ancient
ordinances of religion, which are so all-powerful, and of such a
character that the principalities may be held no matter how their
princes behave and live. These princes alone have states and do not
defend them; and they have subjects and do not rule them; and the
states, although unguarded, are not taken from them, and the subjects,
although not ruled, do not care, and they have neither the desire nor
the ability to alienate themselves. Such principalities only are
secure and happy. But being upheld by powers, to which the human mind
cannot reach, I shall speak no more of them, because, being exalted
and maintained by God, it would be the act of a presumptuous and rash
man to discuss them.
Nevertheless, if any one should ask of me how comes it that the Church
has attained such greatness in temporal power, seeing that from
Alexander backwards the Italian potentates (not only those who have
been called potentates, but every baron and lord, though the smallest)
have valued the temporal power very slightly--yet now a king of France
trembles before it, and it has been able to drive him from Italy, and
to ruin the Venetians--although this may be very manifest, it does not
appear to me superfluous to recall it in some measure to memory.
Before Charles, King of France, passed into Italy,[*] this country was
under the dominion of the Pope, the Venetians, the King of Naples, the
Duke of Milan, and the Florentines. These potentates had two principal
anxieties: the one, that no foreigner should enter Italy under arms;
the other, that none of themselves should seize more territory. Those
about whom there was the most anxiety were the Pope and the Venetians.
To restrain the Venetians the union of all the others was necessary,
as it was for the defence of Ferrara; and to keep down the Pope they
made use of the barons of Rome, who, being divided into two factions,
Orsini and Colonnesi, had always a pretext for disorder, and, standing
with arms in their hands under the eyes of the Pontiff, kept the
pontificate weak and powerless. And although there might arise
sometimes a courageous pope, such as Sixtus, yet neither fortune nor
wisdom could rid him of these annoyances. And the short life of a pope
is also a cause of weakness; for in the ten years, which is the
average life of a pope, he can with difficulty lower one of the
factions; and if, so to speak, one people should almost destroy the
Colonnesi, another would arise hostile to the Orsini, who would
support their opponents, and yet would not have time to ruin the
Orsini. This was the reason why the temporal powers of the pope were
little esteemed in Italy.
[*] Charles VIII invaded Italy in 1494.
Alexander the Sixth arose afterwards, who of all the pontiffs that
have ever been showed how a pope with both money and arms was able to
prevail; and through the instrumentality of the Duke Valentino, and by
reason of the entry of the French, he brought about all those things
which I have discussed above in the actions of the duke. And although
his intention was not to aggrandize the Church, but the duke,
nevertheless, what he did contributed to the greatness of the Church,
which, after his death and the ruin of the duke, became the heir to
all his labours.
Pope Julius came afterwards and found the Church strong, possessing
all the Romagna, the barons of Rome reduced to impotence, and, through
the chastisements of Alexander, the factions wiped out; he also found
the way open to accumulate money in a manner such as had never been
practised before Alexander's time. Such things Julius not only
followed, but improved upon, and he intended to gain Bologna, to ruin
the Venetians, and to drive the French out of Italy. All of these
enterprises prospered with him, and so much the more to his credit,
inasmuch as he did everything to strengthen the Church and not any
private person. He kept also the Orsini and Colonnesi factions within
the bounds in which he found them; and although there was among them
some mind to make disturbance, nevertheless he held two things firm:
the one, the greatness of the Church, with which he terrified them;
and the other, not allowing them to have their own cardinals, who
caused the disorders among them. For whenever these factions have
their cardinals they do not remain quiet for long, because cardinals
foster the factions in Rome and out of it, and the barons are
compelled to support them, and thus from the ambitions of prelates
arise disorders and tumults among the barons. For these reasons his
Holiness Pope Leo[*] found the pontificate most powerful, and it is to
be hoped that, if others made it great in arms, he will make it still
greater and more venerated by his goodness and infinite other virtues.
[*] Pope Leo X was the Cardinal de' Medici.
CHAPTER XII
HOW MANY KINDS OF SOLDIERY THERE ARE, AND CONCERNING MERCENARIES
Having discoursed particularly on the characteristics of such
principalities as in the beginning I proposed to discuss, and having
considered in some degree the causes of their being good or bad, and
having shown the methods by which many have sought to acquire them and
to hold them, it now remains for me to discuss generally the means of
offence and defence which belong to each of them.
We have seen above how necessary it is for a prince to have his
foundations well laid, otherwise it follows of necessity he will go to
ruin. The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or
composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good
laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are
well armed they have good laws. I shall leave the laws out of the
discussion and shall speak of the arms.
I say, therefore, that the arms with which a prince defends his state
are either his own, or they are mercenaries, auxiliaries, or mixed.
Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one
holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor
safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline,
unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have
neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is
deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by
them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other
attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend,
which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you. They are
ready enough to be your soldiers whilst you do not make war, but if
war comes they take themselves off or run from the foe; which I should
have little trouble to prove, for the ruin of Italy has been caused by
nothing else than by resting all her hopes for many years on
mercenaries, and although they formerly made some display and appeared
valiant amongst themselves, yet when the foreigners came they showed
what they were. Thus it was that Charles, King of France, was allowed
to seize Italy with chalk in hand;[*] and he who told us that our sins
were the cause of it told the truth, but they were not the sins he
imagined, but those which I have related. And as they were the sins of
princes, it is the princes who have also suffered the penalty.
[*] "With chalk in hand," "col gesso." This is one of the bons mots of
Alexander VI, and refers to the ease with which Charles VIII
seized Italy, implying that it was only necessary for him to send
his quartermasters to chalk up the billets for his soldiers to
conquer the country. Cf. "The History of Henry VII," by Lord
Bacon: "King Charles had conquered the realm of Naples, and lost
it again, in a kind of a felicity of a dream. He passed the whole
length of Italy without resistance: so that it was true what Pope
Alexander was wont to say: That the Frenchmen came into Italy with
chalk in their hands, to mark up their lodgings, rather than with
swords to fight."
I wish to demonstrate further the infelicity of these arms. The
mercenary captains are either capable men or they are not; if they
are, you cannot trust them, because they always aspire to their own
greatness, either by oppressing you, who are their master, or others
contrary to your intentions; but if the captain is not skilful, you
are ruined in the usual way.
And if it be urged that whoever is armed will act in the same way,
whether mercenary or not, I reply that when arms have to be resorted
to, either by a prince or a republic, then the prince ought to go in
person and perform the duty of a captain; the republic has to send its
citizens, and when one is sent who does not turn out satisfactorily,
it ought to recall him, and when one is worthy, to hold him by the
laws so that he does not leave the command. And experience has shown
princes and republics, single-handed, making the greatest progress,
and mercenaries doing nothing except damage; and it is more difficult
to bring a republic, armed with its own arms, under the sway of one of
its citizens than it is to bring one armed with foreign arms. Rome and
Sparta stood for many ages armed and free. The Switzers are completely
armed and quite free.
Of ancient mercenaries, for example, there are the Carthaginians, who
were oppressed by their mercenary soldiers after the first war with
the Romans, although the Carthaginians had their own citizens for
captains. After the death of Epaminondas, Philip of Macedon was made
captain of their soldiers by the Thebans, and after victory he took
away their liberty.
Duke Filippo being dead, the Milanese enlisted Francesco Sforza
against the Venetians, and he, having overcome the enemy at
Caravaggio,[*] allied himself with them to crush the Milanese, his
masters. His father, Sforza, having been engaged by Queen Johanna[+]
of Naples, left her unprotected, so that she was forced to throw
herself into the arms of the King of Aragon, in order to save her
kingdom. And if the Venetians and Florentines formerly extended their
dominions by these arms, and yet their captains did not make
themselves princes, but have defended them, I reply that the
Florentines in this case have been favoured by chance, for of the able
captains, of whom they might have stood in fear, some have not
conquered, some have been opposed, and others have turned their
ambitions elsewhere. One who did not conquer was Giovanni Acuto,[%]
and since he did not conquer his fidelity cannot be proved; but every
one will acknowledge that, had he conquered, the Florentines would
have stood at his discretion. Sforza had the Bracceschi always against
him, so they watched each other. Francesco turned his ambition to
Lombardy; Braccio against the Church and the kingdom of Naples. But
let us come to that which happened a short while ago. The Florentines
appointed as their captain Pagolo Vitelli, a most prudent man, who
from a private position had risen to the greatest renown. If this man
had taken Pisa, nobody can deny that it would have been proper for the
Florentines to keep in with him, for if he became the soldier of their
enemies they had no means of resisting, and if they held to him they
must obey him. The Venetians, if their achievements are considered,
will be seen to have acted safely and gloriously so long as they sent
to war their own men, when with armed gentlemen and plebians they did
valiantly. This was before they turned to enterprises on land, but
when they began to fight on land they forsook this virtue and followed
the custom of Italy. And in the beginning of their expansion on land,
through not having much territory, and because of their great
reputation, they had not much to fear from their captains; but when
they expanded, as under Carmignuola,[#] they had a taste of this
mistake; for, having found him a most valiant man (they beat the Duke
of Milan under his leadership), and, on the other hand, knowing how
lukewarm he was in the war, they feared they would no longer conquer
under him, and for this reason they were not willing, nor were they
able, to let him go; and so, not to lose again that which they had
acquired, they were compelled, in order to secure themselves, to
murder him. They had afterwards for their captains Bartolomeo da
Bergamo, Roberto da San Severino, the count of Pitigliano,[&] and the
like, under whom they had to dread loss and not gain, as happened
afterwards at Vaila,[$] where in one battle they lost that which in
eight hundred years they had acquired with so much trouble. Because
from such arms conquests come but slowly, long delayed and
inconsiderable, but the losses sudden and portentous.
[*] Battle of Caravaggio, 15th September 1448.
[+] Johanna II of Naples, the widow of Ladislao, King of Naples.
[%] Giovanni Acuto. An English knight whose name was Sir John
Hawkwood. He fought in the English wars in France, and was
knighted by Edward III; afterwards he collected a body of troops
and went into Italy. These became the famous "White Company." He
took part in many wars, and died in Florence in 1394. He was born
about 1320 at Sible Hedingham, a village in Essex. He married
Domnia, a daughter of Bernabo Visconti.
[#] Carmignuola. Francesco Bussone, born at Carmagnola about 1390,
executed at Venice, 5th May 1432.
[&] Bartolomeo Colleoni of Bergamo; died 1457. Roberto of San
Severino; died fighting for Venice against Sigismund, Duke of
Austria, in 1487. "Primo capitano in Italia."--Machiavelli. Count
of Pitigliano; Nicolo Orsini, born 1442, died 1510.
[$] Battle of Vaila in 1509.
And as with these examples I have reached Italy, which has been ruled
for many years by mercenaries, I wish to discuss them more seriously,
in order that, having seen their rise and progress, one may be better
prepared to counteract them. You must understand that the empire has
recently come to be repudiated in Italy, that the Pope has acquired
more temporal power, and that Italy has been divided up into more
states, for the reason that many of the great cities took up arms
against their nobles, who, formerly favoured by the emperor, were
oppressing them, whilst the Church was favouring them so as to gain
authority in temporal power: in many others their citizens became
princes. From this it came to pass that Italy fell partly into the
hands of the Church and of republics, and, the Church consisting of
priests and the republic of citizens unaccustomed to arms, both
commenced to enlist foreigners.
The first who gave renown to this soldiery was Alberigo da Conio,[*]
the Romagnian. From the school of this man sprang, among others,
Braccio and Sforza, who in their time were the arbiters of Italy.
After these came all the other captains who till now have directed the
arms of Italy; and the end of all their valour has been, that she has
been overrun by Charles, robbed by Louis, ravaged by Ferdinand, and
insulted by the Switzers. The principle that has guided them has been,
first, to lower the credit of infantry so that they might increase
their own. They did this because, subsisting on their pay and without
territory, they were unable to support many soldiers, and a few
infantry did not give them any authority; so they were led to employ
cavalry, with a moderate force of which they were maintained and
honoured; and affairs were brought to such a pass that, in an army of
twenty thousand soldiers, there were not to be found two thousand foot
soldiers. They had, besides this, used every art to lessen fatigue and
danger to themselves and their soldiers, not killing in the fray, but
taking prisoners and liberating without ransom. They did not attack
towns at night, nor did the garrisons of the towns attack encampments
at night; they did not surround the camp either with stockade or
ditch, nor did they campaign in the winter. All these things were
permitted by their military rules, and devised by them to avoid, as I
have said, both fatigue and dangers; thus they have brought Italy to
slavery and contempt.
[*] Alberigo da Conio. Alberico da Barbiano, Count of Cunio in
Romagna. He was the leader of the famous "Company of St George,"
composed entirely of Italian soldiers. He died in 1409.
CHAPTER XIII
CONCERNING AUXILIARIES, MIXED SOLDIERY, AND ONE'S OWN
Auxiliaries, which are the other useless arm, are employed when a
prince is called in with his forces to aid and defend, as was done by
Pope Julius in the most recent times; for he, having, in the
enterprise against Ferrara, had poor proof of his mercenaries, turned
to auxiliaries, and stipulated with Ferdinand, King of Spain,[*] for
his assistance with men and arms. These arms may be useful and good in
themselves, but for him who calls them in they are always
disadvantageous; for losing, one is undone, and winning, one is their
captive.
[*] Ferdinand V (F. II of Aragon and Sicily, F. III of Naples),
surnamed "The Catholic," born 1542, died 1516.
And although ancient histories may be full of examples, I do not wish
to leave this recent one of Pope Julius the Second, the peril of which
cannot fail to be perceived; for he, wishing to get Ferrara, threw
himself entirely into the hands of the foreigner. But his good fortune
brought about a third event, so that he did not reap the fruit of his
rash choice; because, having his auxiliaries routed at Ravenna, and
the Switzers having risen and driven out the conquerors (against all
expectation, both his and others), it so came to pass that he did not
become prisoner to his enemies, they having fled, nor to his
auxiliaries, he having conquered by other arms than theirs.
The Florentines, being entirely without arms, sent ten thousand
Frenchmen to take Pisa, whereby they ran more danger than at any other
time of their troubles.
The Emperor of Constantinople,[*] to oppose his neighbours, sent ten
thousand Turks into Greece, who, on the war being finished, were not
willing to quit; this was the beginning of the servitude of Greece to
the infidels.
[*] Joannes Cantacuzenus, born 1300, died 1383.
Therefore, let him who has no desire to conquer make use of these
arms, for they are much more hazardous than mercenaries, because with
them the ruin is ready made; they are all united, all yield obedience
to others; but with mercenaries, when they have conquered, more time
and better opportunities are needed to injure you; they are not all of
one community, they are found and paid by you, and a third party,
which you have made their head, is not able all at once to assume
enough authority to injure you. In conclusion, in mercenaries dastardy
is most dangerous; in auxiliaries, valour. The wise prince, therefore,
has always avoided these arms and turned to his own; and has been
willing rather to lose with them than to conquer with the others, not
deeming that a real victory which is gained with the arms of others.
I shall never hesitate to cite Cesare Borgia and his actions. This
duke entered the Romagna with auxiliaries, taking there only French
soldiers, and with them he captured Imola and Forli; but afterwards,
such forces not appearing to him reliable, he turned to mercenaries,
discerning less danger in them, and enlisted the Orsini and Vitelli;
whom presently, on handling and finding them doubtful, unfaithful, and
dangerous, he destroyed and turned to his own men. And the difference
between one and the other of these forces can easily be seen when one
considers the difference there was in the reputation of the duke, when
he had the French, when he had the Orsini and Vitelli, and when he
relied on his own soldiers, on whose fidelity he could always count
and found it ever increasing; he was never esteemed more highly than
when every one saw that he was complete master of his own forces.
I was not intending to go beyond Italian and recent examples, but I am
unwilling to leave out Hiero, the Syracusan, he being one of those I
have named above. This man, as I have said, made head of the army by
the Syracusans, soon found out that a mercenary soldiery, constituted
like our Italian condottieri, was of no use; and it appearing to him
that he could neither keep them not let them go, he had them all cut
to pieces, and afterwards made war with his own forces and not with
aliens.
I wish also to recall to memory an instance from the Old Testament
applicable to this subject. David offered himself to Saul to fight
with Goliath, the Philistine champion, and, to give him courage, Saul
armed him with his own weapons; which David rejected as soon as he had
them on his back, saying he could make no use of them, and that he
wished to meet the enemy with his sling and his knife. In conclusion,
the arms of others either fall from your back, or they weigh you down,
or they bind you fast.
Charles the Seventh,[*] the father of King Louis the Eleventh,[+]
having by good fortune and valour liberated France from the English,
recognized the necessity of being armed with forces of his own, and he
established in his kingdom ordinances concerning men-at-arms and
infantry. Afterwards his son, King Louis, abolished the infantry and
began to enlist the Switzers, which mistake, followed by others, is,
as is now seen, a source of peril to that kingdom; because, having
raised the reputation of the Switzers, he has entirely diminished the
value of his own arms, for he has destroyed the infantry altogether;
and his men-at-arms he has subordinated to others, for, being as they
are so accustomed to fight along with Switzers, it does not appear
that they can now conquer without them. Hence it arises that the
French cannot stand against the Switzers, and without the Switzers
they do not come off well against others. The armies of the French
have thus become mixed, partly mercenary and partly national, both of
which arms together are much better than mercenaries alone or
auxiliaries alone, but much inferior to one's own forces. And this
example proves it, for the kingdom of France would be unconquerable if
the ordinance of Charles had been enlarged or maintained.
[*] Charles VII of France, surnamed "The Victorious," born 1403, died
1461.
[+] Louis XI, son of the above, born 1423, died 1483.
But the scanty wisdom of man, on entering into an affair which looks
well at first, cannot discern the poison that is hidden in it, as I
have said above of hectic fevers. Therefore, if he who rules a
principality cannot recognize evils until they are upon him, he is not
truly wise; and this insight is given to few. And if the first
disaster to the Roman Empire[*] should be examined, it will be found
to have commenced only with the enlisting of the Goths; because from
that time the vigour of the Roman Empire began to decline, and all
that valour which had raised it passed away to others.
[*] "Many speakers to the House the other night in the debate on the
reduction of armaments seemed to show a most lamentable ignorance
of the conditions under which the British Empire maintains its
existence. When Mr Balfour replied to the allegations that the
Roman Empire sank under the weight of its military obligations, he
said that this was 'wholly unhistorical.' He might well have added
that the Roman power was at its zenith when every citizen
acknowledged his liability to fight for the State, but that it
began to decline as soon as this obligation was no longer
recognized."--Pall Mall Gazette, 15th May 1906.
I conclude, therefore, that no principality is secure without having
its own forces; on the contrary, it is entirely dependent on good
fortune, not having the valour which in adversity would defend it. And
it has always been the opinion and judgment of wise men that nothing
can be so uncertain or unstable as fame or power not founded on its
own strength. And one's own forces are those which are composed either
of subjects, citizens, or dependents; all others are mercenaries or
auxiliaries. And the way to make ready one's own forces will be easily
found if the rules suggested by me shall be reflected upon, and if one
will consider how Philip, the father of Alexander the Great, and many
republics and princes have armed and organized themselves, to which
rules I entirely commit myself.
CHAPTER XIV
THAT WHICH CONCERNS A PRINCE ON THE SUBJECT OF THE ART OF WAR
A prince ought to have no other aim or thought, nor select anything
else for his study, than war and its rules and discipline; for this is
the sole art that belongs to him who rules, and it is of such force
that it not only upholds those who are born princes, but it often
enables men to rise from a private station to that rank. And, on the
contrary, it is seen that when princes have thought more of ease than
of arms they have lost their states. And the first cause of your
losing it is to neglect this art; and what enables you to acquire a
state is to be master of the art. Francesco Sforza, through being
martial, from a private person became Duke of Milan; and the sons,
through avoiding the hardships and troubles of arms, from dukes became
private persons. For among other evils which being unarmed brings you,
it causes you to be despised, and this is one of those ignominies
against which a prince ought to guard himself, as is shown later on.
Because there is nothing proportionate between the armed and the
unarmed; and it is not reasonable that he who is armed should yield
obedience willingly to him who is unarmed, or that the unarmed man
should be secure among armed servants. Because, there being in the one
disdain and in the other suspicion, it is not possible for them to
work well together. And therefore a prince who does not understand the
art of war, over and above the other misfortunes already mentioned,
cannot be respected by his soldiers, nor can he rely on them. He ought
never, therefore, to have out of his thoughts this subject of war, and
in peace he should addict himself more to its exercise than in war;
this he can do in two ways, the one by action, the other by study.
As regards action, he ought above all things to keep his men well
organized and drilled, to follow incessantly the chase, by which he
accustoms his body to hardships, and learns something of the nature of
localities, and gets to find out how the mountains rise, how the
valleys open out, how the plains lie, and to understand the nature of
rivers and marshes, and in all this to take the greatest care. Which
knowledge is useful in two ways. Firstly, he learns to know his
country, and is better able to undertake its defence; afterwards, by
means of the knowledge and observation of that locality, he
understands with ease any other which it may be necessary for him to
study hereafter; because the hills, valleys, and plains, and rivers
and marshes that are, for instance, in Tuscany, have a certain
resemblance to those of other countries, so that with a knowledge of
the aspect of one country one can easily arrive at a knowledge of
others. And the prince that lacks this skill lacks the essential which
it is desirable that a captain should possess, for it teaches him to
surprise his enemy, to select quarters, to lead armies, to array the
battle, to besiege towns to advantage.
Philopoemen,[*] Prince of the Achaeans, among other praises which
writers have bestowed on him, is commended because in time of peace he
never had anything in his mind but the rules of war; and when he was
in the country with friends, he often stopped and reasoned with them:
"If the enemy should be upon that hill, and we should find ourselves
here with our army, with whom would be the advantage? How should one
best advance to meet him, keeping the ranks? If we should wish to
retreat, how ought we to pursue?" And he would set forth to them, as
he went, all the chances that could befall an army; he would listen to
their opinion and state his, confirming it with reasons, so that by
these continual discussions there could never arise, in time of war,
any unexpected circumstances that he could not deal with.
[*] Philopoemen, "the last of the Greeks," born 252 B.C., died 183
B.C.
But to exercise the intellect the prince should read histories, and
study there the actions of illustrious men, to see how they have borne
themselves in war, to examine the causes of their victories and
defeat, so as to avoid the latter and imitate the former; and above
all do as an illustrious man did, who took as an exemplar one who had
been praised and famous before him, and whose achievements and deeds
he always kept in his mind, as it is said Alexander the Great imitated
Achilles, Caesar Alexander, Scipio Cyrus. And whoever reads the life
of Cyrus, written by Xenophon, will recognize afterwards in the life
of Scipio how that imitation was his glory, and how in chastity,
affability, humanity, and liberality Scipio conformed to those things
which have been written of Cyrus by Xenophon. A wise prince ought to
observe some such rules, and never in peaceful times stand idle, but
increase his resources with industry in such a way that they may be
available to him in adversity, so that if fortune chances it may find
him prepared to resist her blows.
CHAPTER XV
CONCERNING THINGS FOR WHICH MEN, AND ESPECIALLY PRINCES,
ARE PRAISED OR BLAMED
It remains now to see what ought to be the rules of conduct for a
prince towards subject and friends. And as I know that many have
written on this point, I expect I shall be considered presumptuous in
mentioning it again, especially as in discussing it I shall depart
from the methods of other people. But, it being my intention to write
a thing which shall be useful to him who apprehends it, it appears to
me more appropriate to follow up the real truth of the matter than the
imagination of it; for many have pictured republics and principalities
which in fact have never been known or seen, because how one lives is
so far distant from how one ought to live, that he who neglects what
is done for what ought to be done, sooner effects his ruin than his
preservation; for a man who wishes to act entirely up to his
professions of virtue soon meets with what destroys him among so much
that is evil.
Hence it is necessary for a prince wishing to hold his own to know how
to do wrong, and to make use of it or not according to necessity.
Therefore, putting on one side imaginary things concerning a prince,
and discussing those which are real, I say that all men when they are
spoken of, and chiefly princes for being more highly placed, are
remarkable for some of those qualities which bring them either blame
or praise; and thus it is that one is reputed liberal, another
miserly, using a Tuscan term (because an avaricious person in our
language is still he who desires to possess by robbery, whilst we call
one miserly who deprives himself too much of the use of his own); one
is reputed generous, one rapacious; one cruel, one compassionate; one
faithless, another faithful; one effeminate and cowardly, another bold
and brave; one affable, another haughty; one lascivious, another
chaste; one sincere, another cunning; one hard, another easy; one
grave, another frivolous; one religious, another unbelieving, and the
like. And I know that every one will confess that it would be most
praiseworthy in a prince to exhibit all the above qualities that are
considered good; but because they can neither be entirely possessed
nor observed, for human conditions do not permit it, it is necessary
for him to be sufficiently prudent that he may know how to avoid the
reproach of those vices which would lose him his state; and also to
keep himself, if it be possible, from those which would not lose him
it; but this not being possible, he may with less hesitation abandon
himself to them. And again, he need not make himself uneasy at
incurring a reproach for those vices without which the state can only
be saved with difficulty, for if everything is considered carefully,
it will be found that something which looks like virtue, if followed,
would be his ruin; whilst something else, which looks like vice, yet
followed brings him security and prosperity.
CHAPTER XVI
CONCERNING LIBERALITY AND MEANNESS
Commencing then with the first of the above-named characteristics, I
say that it would be well to be reputed liberal. Nevertheless,
liberality exercised in a way that does not bring you the reputation
for it, injures you; for if one exercises it honestly and as it should
be exercised, it may not become known, and you will not avoid the
reproach of its opposite. Therefore, any one wishing to maintain among
men the name of liberal is obliged to avoid no attribute of
magnificence; so that a prince thus inclined will consume in such acts
all his property, and will be compelled in the end, if he wish to
maintain the name of liberal, to unduly weigh down his people, and tax
them, and do everything he can to get money. This will soon make him
odious to his subjects, and becoming poor he will be little valued by
any one; thus, with his liberality, having offended many and rewarded
few, he is affected by the very first trouble and imperilled by
whatever may be the first danger; recognizing this himself, and
wishing to draw back from it, he runs at once into the reproach of
being miserly.
Back in 1998, it took me 2 months to download "The Matrix" over my 14.4k modem, to watch on my K6-366 computer... Now this kid is watching "Independence Day" on his Commodore 64 while listening to MP3s after being on the net for little over one day? Ahhh huh... Katz, if you're going to make up stories on slow news days, you could at least make them remotely plausible.
You forgot one thing, El Leeji Presidente, and that is:
4. Anyone who had enough brains to use the internet there has jumped ship (literally) and ended up here, the promised land of Australia, or died trying... sure he may be from Kabul, but only had enough money to get internet access when his parents got here, and he thought he may have some fun with the dumb fucks that work in american press.
Ahhh... bask in the light of my genius, pilgrims
--
"I feel so cold, on hookers and gin... this mess we're in"
CHAPTER VI
CONCERNING NEW PRINCIPALITIES WHICH ARE ACQUIRED
BY ONE'S OWN ARMS AND ABILITY
Let no one be surprised if, in speaking of entirely new principalities
as I shall do, I adduce the highest examples both of prince and of
state; because men, walking almost always in paths beaten by others,
and following by imitation their deeds, are yet unable to keep
entirely to the ways of others or attain to the power of those they
imitate. A wise man ought always to follow the paths beaten by great
men, and to imitate those who have been supreme, so that if his
ability does not equal theirs, at least it will savour of it. Let him
act like the clever archers who, designing to hit the mark which yet
appears too far distant, and knowing the limits to which the strength
of their bow attains, take aim much higher than the mark, not to reach
by their strength or arrow to so great a height, but to be able with
the aid of so high an aim to hit the mark they wish to reach.
I say, therefore, that in entirely new principalities, where there is
a new prince, more or less difficulty is found in keeping them,
accordingly as there is more or less ability in him who has acquired
the state. Now, as the fact of becoming a prince from a private
station presupposes either ability or fortune, it is clear that one or
other of these things will mitigate in some degree many difficulties.
Nevertheless, he who has relied least on fortune is established the
strongest. Further, it facilitates matters when the prince, having no
other state, is compelled to reside there in person.
But to come to those who, by their own ability and not through
fortune, have risen to be princes, I say that Moses, Cyrus, Romulus,
Theseus, and such like are the most excellent examples. And although
one may not discuss Moses, he having been a mere executor of the will
of God, yet he ought to be admired, if only for that favour which made
him worthy to speak with God. But in considering Cyrus and others who
have acquired or founded kingdoms, all will be found admirable; and if
their particular deeds and conduct shall be considered, they will not
be found inferior to those of Moses, although he had so great a
preceptor. And in examining their actions and lives one cannot see
that they owed anything to fortune beyond opportunity, which brought
them the material to mould into the form which seemed best to them.
Without that opportunity their powers of mind would have been
extinguished, and without those powers the opportunity would have come
in vain.
It was necessary, therefore, to Moses that he should find the people
of Israel in Egypt enslaved and oppressed by the Egyptians, in order
that they should be disposed to follow him so as to be delivered out
of bondage. It was necessary that Romulus should not remain in Alba,
and that he should be abandoned at his birth, in order that he should
become King of Rome and founder of the fatherland. It was necessary
that Cyrus should find the Persians discontented with the government
of the Medes, and the Medes soft and effeminate through their long
peace. Theseus could not have shown his ability had he not found the
Athenians dispersed. These opportunities, therefore, made those men
fortunate, and their high ability enabled them to recognize the
opportunity whereby their country was ennobled and made famous.
Those who by valorous ways become princes, like these men, acquire a
principality with difficulty, but they keep it with ease. The
difficulties they have in acquiring it rise in part from the new rules
and methods which they are forced to introduce to establish their
government and its security. And it ought to be remembered that there
is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct,
or more uncertain in its success, then to take the lead in the
introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for
enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and
lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This
coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws
on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not
readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of
them. Thus it happens that whenever those who are hostile have the
opportunity to attack they do it like partisans, whilst the others
defend lukewarmly, in such wise that the prince is endangered along
with them.
It is necessary, therefore, if we desire to discuss this matter
thoroughly, to inquire whether these innovators can rely on themselves
or have to depend on others: that is to say, whether, to consummate
their enterprise, have they to use prayers or can they use force? In
the first instance they always succeed badly, and never compass
anything; but when they can rely on themselves and use force, then
they are rarely endangered. Hence it is that all armed prophets have
conquered, and the unarmed ones have been destroyed. Besides the
reasons mentioned, the nature of the people is variable, and whilst it
is easy to persuade them, it is difficult to fix them in that
persuasion. And thus it is necessary to take such measures that, when
they believe no longer, it may be possible to make them believe by
force.
If Moses, Cyrus, Theseus, and Romulus had been unarmed they could not
have enforced their constitutions for long--as happened in our time to
Fra Girolamo Savonarola, who was ruined with his new order of things
immediately the multitude believed in him no longer, and he had no
means of keeping steadfast those who believed or of making the
unbelievers to believe. Therefore such as these have great
difficulties in consummating their enterprise, for all their dangers
are in the ascent, yet with ability they will overcome them; but when
these are overcome, and those who envied them their success are
exterminated, they will begin to be respected, and they will continue
afterwards powerful, secure, honoured, and happy.
To these great examples I wish to add a lesser one; still it bears
some resemblance to them, and I wish it to suffice me for all of a
like kind: it is Hiero the Syracusan.[*] This man rose from a private
station to be Prince of Syracuse, nor did he, either, owe anything to
fortune but opportunity; for the Syracusans, being oppressed, chose
him for their captain, afterwards he was rewarded by being made their
prince. He was of so great ability, even as a private citizen, that
one who writes of him says he wanted nothing but a kingdom to be a
king. This man abolished the old soldiery, organized the new, gave up
old alliances, made new ones; and as he had his own soldiers and
allies, on such foundations he was able to build any edifice: thus,
whilst he had endured much trouble in acquiring, he had but little in
keeping.
[*] Hiero II, born about 307 B.C., died 216 B.C.
CHAPTER VII
CONCERNING NEW PRINCIPALITIES WHICH ARE ACQUIRED EITHER
BY THE ARMS OF OTHERS OR BY GOOD FORTUNE
Those who solely by good fortune become princes from being private
citizens have little trouble in rising, but much in keeping atop; they
have not any difficulties on the way up, because they fly, but they
have many when they reach the summit. Such are those to whom some
state is given either for money or by the favour of him who bestows
it; as happened to many in Greece, in the cities of Ionia and of the
Hellespont, where princes were made by Darius, in order that they
might hold the cities both for his security and his glory; as also
were those emperors who, by the corruption of the soldiers, from being
citizens came to empire. Such stand simply elevated upon the goodwill
and the fortune of him who has elevated them--two most inconstant and
unstable things. Neither have they the knowledge requisite for the
position; because, unless they are men of great worth and ability, it
is not reasonable to expect that they should know how to command,
having always lived in a private condition; besides, they cannot hold
it because they have not forces which they can keep friendly and
faithful.
States that rise unexpectedly, then, like all other things in nature
which are born and grow rapidly, cannot leave their foundations and
correspondencies[*] fixed in such a way that the first storm will not
overthrow them; unless, as is said, those who unexpectedly become
princes are men of so much ability that they know they have to be
prepared at once to hold that which fortune has thrown into their
laps, and that those foundations, which others have laid BEFORE they
became princes, they must lay AFTERWARDS.
[*] "Le radici e corrispondenze," their roots (i.e. foundations) and
correspondencies or relations with other states--a common meaning
of "correspondence" and "correspondency" in the sixteenth and
seventeenth centuries.
Concerning these two methods of rising to be a prince by ability or
fortune, I wish to adduce two examples within our own recollection,
and these are Francesco Sforza[*] and Cesare Borgia. Francesco, by
proper means and with great ability, from being a private person rose
to be Duke of Milan, and that which he had acquired with a thousand
anxieties he kept with little trouble. On the other hand, Cesare
Borgia, called by the people Duke Valentino, acquired his state during
the ascendancy of his father, and on its decline he lost it,
notwithstanding that he had taken every measure and done all that
ought to be done by a wise and able man to fix firmly his roots in the
states which the arms and fortunes of others had bestowed on him.
[*] Francesco Sforza, born 1401, died 1466. He married Bianca Maria
Visconti, a natural daughter of Filippo Visconti, the Duke of
Milan, on whose death he procured his own elevation to the duchy.
Machiavelli was the accredited agent of the Florentine Republic to
Cesare Borgia (1478-1507) during the transactions which led up to
the assassinations of the Orsini and Vitelli at Sinigalia, and
along with his letters to his chiefs in Florence he has left an
account, written ten years before "The Prince," of the proceedings
of the duke in his "Descritione del modo tenuto dal duca Valentino
nello ammazzare Vitellozzo Vitelli," etc., a translation of which
is appended to the present work.
Because, as is stated above, he who has not first laid his foundations
may be able with great ability to lay them afterwards, but they will
be laid with trouble to the architect and danger to the building. If,
therefore, all the steps taken by the duke be considered, it will be
seen that he laid solid foundations for his future power, and I do not
consider it superfluous to discuss them, because I do not know what
better precepts to give a new prince than the example of his actions;
and if his dispositions were of no avail, that was not his fault, but
the extraordinary and extreme malignity of fortune.
Alexander the Sixth, in wishing to aggrandize the duke, his son, had
many immediate and prospective difficulties. Firstly, he did not see
his way to make him master of any state that was not a state of the
Church; and if he was willing to rob the Church he knew that the Duke
of Milan and the Venetians would not consent, because Faenza and
Rimini were already under the protection of the Venetians. Besides
this, he saw the arms of Italy, especially those by which he might
have been assisted, in hands that would fear the aggrandizement of the
Pope, namely, the Orsini and the Colonnesi and their following. It
behoved him, therefore, to upset this state of affairs and embroil the
powers, so as to make himself securely master of part of their states.
This was easy for him to do, because he found the Venetians, moved by
other reasons, inclined to bring back the French into Italy; he would
not only not oppose this, but he would render it more easy by
dissolving the former marriage of King Louis. Therefore the king came
into Italy with the assistance of the Venetians and the consent of
Alexander. He was no sooner in Milan than the Pope had soldiers from
him for the attempt on the Romagna, which yielded to him on the
reputation of the king. The duke, therefore, having acquired the
Romagna and beaten the Colonnesi, while wishing to hold that and to
advance further, was hindered by two things: the one, his forces did
not appear loyal to him, the other, the goodwill of France: that is to
say, he feared that the forces of the Orsini, which he was using,
would not stand to him, that not only might they hinder him from
winning more, but might themselves seize what he had won, and that the
king might also do the same. Of the Orsini he had a warning when,
after taking Faenza and attacking Bologna, he saw them go very
unwillingly to that attack. And as to the king, he learned his mind
when he himself, after taking the Duchy of Urbino, attacked Tuscany,
and the king made him desist from that undertaking; hence the duke
decided to depend no more upon the arms and the luck of others.
For the first thing he weakened the Orsini and Colonnesi parties in
Rome, by gaining to himself all their adherents who were gentlemen,
making them his gentlemen, giving them good pay, and, according to
their rank, honouring them with office and command in such a way that
in a few months all attachment to the factions was destroyed and
turned entirely to the duke. After this he awaited an opportunity to
crush the Orsini, having scattered the adherents of the Colonna house.
This came to him soon and he used it well; for the Orsini, perceiving
at length that the aggrandizement of the duke and the Church was ruin
to them, called a meeting of the Magione in Perugia. From this sprung
the rebellion at Urbino and the tumults in the Romagna, with endless
dangers to the duke, all of which he overcame with the help of the
French. Having restored his authority, not to leave it at risk by
trusting either to the French or other outside forces, he had recourse
to his wiles, and he knew so well how to conceal his mind that, by the
mediation of Signor Pagolo--whom the duke did not fail to secure with
all kinds of attention, giving him money, apparel, and horses--the
Orsini were reconciled, so that their simplicity brought them into his
power at Sinigalia.[*] Having exterminated the leaders, and turned
their partisans into his friends, the duke laid sufficiently good
foundations to his power, having all the Romagna and the Duchy of
Urbino; and the people now beginning to appreciate their prosperity,
he gained them all over to himself. And as this point is worthy of
notice, and to be imitated by others, I am not willing to leave it
out.
... that you don't really want to suck, cos it aint that fun.
We lose our fantastic fuckin journalist (the aussie camera man) through taliban executions, and yet the powers that be allow wankers like this arse puncher to go around and print fuckin propaganda crap? Has this person ever been outside, let alone in another country to actually see what the fucks goin on out here?
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!! JUST KILL HIM ALREADY!
--
"I feel so cold, on hookers and gin... this mess we're in"
Post the e-mail this guy sent you. Feel free to conceal his real name and e-mail address if you see fit. But post the e-mail, with full headers, so we can see that you're not pulling this all out of thin air.
--
The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
I say, therefore, that in entirely new principalities, where there is
a new prince, more or less difficulty is found in keeping them,
accordingly as there is more or less ability in him who has acquired
the state. Now, as the fact of becoming a prince from a private
station presupposes either ability or fortune, it is clear that one or
other of these things will mitigate in some degree many difficulties.
Nevertheless, he who has relied least on fortune is established the
strongest. Further, it facilitates matters when the prince, having no
other state, is compelled to reside there in person.
But to come to those who, by their own ability and not through
fortune, have risen to be princes, I say that Moses, Cyrus, Romulus,
Theseus, and such like are the most excellent examples. And although
one may not discuss Moses, he having been a mere executor of the will
of God, yet he ought to be admired, if only for that favour which made
him worthy to speak with God. But in considering Cyrus and others who
have acquired or founded kingdoms, all will be found admirable; and if
their particular deeds and conduct shall be considered, they will not
be found inferior to those of Moses, although he had so great a
preceptor. And in examining their actions and lives one cannot see
that they owed anything to fortune beyond opportunity, which brought
them the material to mould into the form which seemed best to them.
Without that opportunity their powers of mind would have been
extinguished, and without those powers the opportunity would have come
in vain.
It was necessary, therefore, to Moses that he should find the people
of Israel in Egypt enslaved and oppressed by the Egyptians, in order
that they should be disposed to follow him so as to be delivered out
of bondage. It was necessary that Romulus should not remain in Alba,
and that he should be abandoned at his birth, in order that he should
become King of Rome and founder of the fatherland. It was necessary
that Cyrus should find the Persians discontented with the government
of the Medes, and the Medes soft and effeminate through their long
peace. Theseus could not have shown his ability had he not found the
Athenians dispersed. These opportunities, therefore, made those men
fortunate, and their high ability enabled them to recognize the
opportunity whereby their country was ennobled and made famous.
Those who by valorous ways become princes, like these men, acquire a
principality with difficulty, but they keep it with ease. The
difficulties they have in acquiring it rise in part from the new rules
and methods which they are forced to introduce to establish their
government and its security. And it ought to be remembered that there
is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct,
or more uncertain in its success, then to take the lead in the
introduction.
Give me more of that Propaganda yes, It feels so good, so can it really be wrong.
I'm not a Troll i prefer to be called a Goblin.
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u will wish you were dead by the time i finish with you cock head
Project Gutenberg Etexts are usually created from multiple editions, .type]
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all of which are in the Public Domain in the United States, unless a
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We are now trying to release all our books one month in advance
of the official release dates, for time for better editing.
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The official release date of all Project Gutenberg Etexts is at
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Information about Project Gutenberg (one page)
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projected audience is one hundred million readers. If our value
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files per month, or 384 more Etexts in 1997 for a total of 1000+
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This is ten thousand titles each to one hundred million readers,
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Read the rest of this comment...
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Re:Yes Give it to me baby (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 22, @02:56PM (#2601226)
Again, the prince who holds a country differing in the above respects
ought to make himself the head and defender of his less powerful
neighbours, and to weaken the more powerful amongst them, taking care
that no foreigner as powerful as himself shall, by any accident, get a
footing there; for it will always happen that such a one will be
gly as there is more or less ability in him who has acquired
the state. Now, as the fact of becoming a prince from a private
station presupposes either ability or fortune, it is clear that one or
other of these things will mitigate in some degree many difficulties.
Nevertheless, he who has relied least on fortune is established the
strongest. Further, it facilitates matters when the prince, having no
other state, is compelled to reside there in person.
But to come to those who, by their own ability and not through
fortune, have risen to be princes, I say that Moses, Cyrus, Romulus,
Theseus, and such like are the most excellent examples. And although
one may not discuss Moses, he having been a mere executor of the will
of God, yet he ought to be admired, if only for that favour which made
him worthy to speak with God. But in considering Cyrus and others who
have acquired or founded kingdoms, all will be found admirable; and if
their particular deeds and conduct shall be considered, they will not
be found inferior to those of Moses, although he had so great a
preceptor. And in examining their actions and lives one cannot see
that they owed anything to fortune beyond opportunity, which brought
them the material to mould into the form which seemed best to them.
Without that opportunity their powers of mind would have been
extinguished, and without those powers the opportunity would have come
in vain.
It was necessary, therefore, to Moses that he should find the people
of Israel in Egypt enslaved and oppressed by the Egyptians, in order
that they should be disposed to follow him so as to be delivered out
of bondage. It was necessary that Romulus should not remain in Alba,
and that he should be abandoned at his birth, in order that he should
become King of Rome and founder of the fatherland. It was necessary
that Cyrus should find the Persians discontented with the government
of the Medes, and the Medes soft and effeminate through their long
peace. Theseus could not have shown his ability had he not found the
Athenians dispersed. These opportunities, therefore, made those men
fortunate, and their high ability enabled them to recognize the
opportunity whereby their country was ennobled and made famous.
Those who by valorous ways become princes, like these men, acquire a
principality with difficulty, but they keep it with ease. The
difficulties they have in acquiring it rise in part from the new rules
and methods which they are forced to introduce to establish their
government and its security. And it ought to be remembered that there
is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct,
or more uncertain in its success, then to take the lead in the
introduction.
that is exactly the reaction i was expecting to get. cool.
-- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 26, @07:08PM (#2616602)
gly as there is more or less ability in him who has acquired
the state. Now, as the fact of becoming a prince from a private
station presupposes either ability or fortune, it is clear that one or
other of these things will mitigate in some degree many difficulties.
Nevertheless, he who has relied least on fortune is established the
strongest. Further, it facilitates matters when the prince, having no
other state, is compelled to reside there in person.
But to come to those who, by their own ability and not through
fortune, have risen to be princes, I say that Moses, Cyrus, Romulus,
Theseus, and such like are the most excellent examples. And although
one may not discuss Moses, he having been a mere executor of the will
of God, yet he ought to be admired, if only for that favour which made
him worthy to speak with God. But in considering Cyrus and others who
have acquired or founded kingdoms, all will be found admirable; and if
their particular deeds and conduct shall be considered, they will not
be found inferior to those of Moses, although he had so great a
preceptor. And in examining their actions and lives one cannot see
that they owed anything to fortune beyond opportunity, which brought
them the material to mould into the form which seemed best to them.
Without that opportunity their powers of mind would have been
extinguished, and without those powers the opportunity would have come
in vain.
It was necessary, therefore, to Moses that he should find the people
of Israel in Egypt enslaved and oppressed by the Egyptians, in order
that they should be disposed to follow him so as to be delivered out
of bondage. It was necessary that Romulus should not remain in Alba,
and that he should be abandoned at his birth, in order that he should
become King of Rome and founder of the fatherland. It was necessary
that Cyrus should find the Persians discontented with the government
of the Medes, and the Medes soft and effeminate through their long
peace. Theseus could not have shown his ability had he not found the
Athenians dispersed. These opportunities, therefore, made those men
fortunate, and their high ability enabled them to recognize the
opportunity whereby their country was ennobled and made famous.
Those who by valorous ways become princes, like these men, acquire a
principality with difficulty, but they keep it with ease. The
difficulties they have in acquiring it rise in part from the new rules
and methods which they are forced to introduce to establish their
government and its security. And it ought to be remembered that there
is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct,
or more uncertain in its success, then to take the lead in the
introduction.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
herotodus (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 26, @06:46PM (#2616509)
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20011122/wl/1006 466648spain_adoption_mad105.html
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seus, and such like are the most excellent examples. And although
one may not discuss Moses, he having been a mere executor of the will
of God, yet he ought to be admired, if only for that favour which made
him worthy to speak with God. But in considering Cyrus and others who
have acquired or founded kingdoms, all will be found admirable; and if
their particular deeds and conduct shall be considered, they will not
be found inferior to those of Moses, although he had so great a
preceptor. And in examining their actions and lives one cannot see
that they owed anything to fortune beyond opportunity, which brought
them the material to mould into the form which seemed best to them.
Without that opportunity their powers of mind would have been
extinguished, and without those powers the opportunity would have come
in vain.
It was necessary, therefore, to Moses that he should find the people
of Israel in Egypt enslaved and oppressed by the Egyptians, in order
that they should be disposed to follow him so as to be delivered out
of bondage. It was necessary that Romulus should not remain in Alba,
and that he should be abandoned at his birth, in order that he should
become King of Rome and founder of the fatherland. It was necessary
that Cyrus should find the Persians discontented with the government
of the Medes, and the Medes soft and effeminate through their long
peace. Theseus could not have shown his ability had he not found the
Athenians dispersed. These opportunities, therefore, made those men
fortunate, and their high ability enabled them to recognize the
opportunity whereby their country was ennobled and made fam
This is when you set your perl scripts to troll on this garbage site.
Re:Not to sound like an asshole, but... (Score:1)
by ajmarks on Tuesday November 27, @11:58AM (#2619561)
(User #447148 Info)
OK, I can accept that.
?
ok. first i am a newbie infact this is the first and probably last time i will read / post anything here. i kept reading thru all the comments to see if someone caught on but i am amazed (as i usually am not the quickest or most original thinker) that no one else caught the crowning statement in this total farce. quotes on " is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot" quotes off. if this JUNIZ reads slashdot where is his post? why hasn't he been on the forum himself? why wouldn't he be here defending or explaining, or showing how he connects to internet with and downloads movies ( i have a cable modem and i can't ususally get a movie dl on morph or limewire before they sign off. and my bw is usually 100-300 k/sec) if he is so mesmerized?
why? because he is a figment of some jerkoffs imagination. and for those of you who fell for it.... man, suspend your disbelief for any further posts by this author he is either a liar or a tool in either case he is not worth listening too.
if i missed anyone who caught this before me i apologize... anyone else you are way 2 stupid to breath
peace love and understanding! and if that doesn't work a 2x4 to the head
c ya
chris