OEMs can offer good deals on bundled software percisely because it is bundled and they are getting a volume discount.
But "volume discounts" on software should not be legal. It's a positively ridiculous notion (although it is true). The software industry is so absurdly corrupt it's painful to even think about it.
OEM's should be able to offer various OS's at little cost. The real economies of scale come into play where a company like Dell invests in assembly line style manufacturing of PC's where windows is installed on every PC. But even here it should be that difficult to offer additional OS's. Mainly it's a matter of having people who know how to configure the OS.
KDE.org still has rpms (version 1.1.1 is the latest) and they install to/opt (just like you like it)
- no they don't - the RPM's are for RH 5.x only
All Redhat from redhat.com install in/usr as do most debian packages. Traditionally/local and/opt are for local and optional software installed by the user.
/opt is for additional packages. Putting everything in/usr the way RedHat does frankly creates a total mess with large desktop products like KDE and Gnome. If they had at least placed KDE in it's own section in the RPM database, this would be forgiveable. But it (along with GNOME) is strewn to hell and gone across the RPM database too. This makes it very difficult to uninstall. One has to do it from the command line, tediously grepping for each instance of "kde" in the database and uninstalling each package by hand. Is there a way to do this in one fell stroke?
I just want a distribution that basically installs software to the same locations that the software would put itself in if I were to download the source and compile. Red Hat - all versions - is a total pain in the ass if one likes to upgrade things without having to wait for RH to produce an RPM. I guess this leaves Slackware but I'd really like a glibc 2.1 based distribution...
WindowMaker is still completely hosed, I can't understand why this happens. I've had varying results on different machines, but usually it doesn't work.
Also I have big problems running X programs remotely. Even after "mkxauth blah" "blah" still can't connect to the display...
xfs is totally fucked. It can't serve fonts remotely (though it says it can in the man pages) - maybe Red Hat has disabled this little feature without telling anyone? On some installations xfs doesn't even pick up my fonts which are installed locally, even though I've gone trough the proper procedures to add them.
Has anyone else had troubles with RH6? For me it's been so bad I've decided to go Debian.
Eg., on full install, WindowMaker does not work, many things crash randomly. I've installed it on about 5 machines, all with major weirdnesses. xfs doesn't work at all sometimes. True type fonts stopped working, and problems with xauth... KDE is strewn all to hell and gone across the hard disk instead of all under $KDEDIR (which they make/usr). To make matters worse, you need to install KDE from source to install it under/opt now since KDE is no longer making RPMs.
It seems OK as long as X and none of their X hacked junk gets installed.
There isn't any need to migrate to anything if what you have works.
We use Netware because basically it kicks ass for PC file serving and printing. Probably we will use it for Groupwise and zen as well when we go to NW5. Netware is awesome for making the best of windows pc networks - zen is hard to beat. The only problem is that application vendors are usually quick to blame net
We use NT because our application vendors don't seem to be aware that anything else exists (read: we are forced to).
We use linux because it is so easy to manage and such a joy to work with. No, it doesn't have some advanced apps like NDS, but linux is so easy to deal with. I've completely fallen in love with it.
NT is just a bitch, I can't stand her. Netware is nice and stable, but troubleshooting can be painful when things go wrong. Netware is very clunky to manage in some respects - the NWAdmin tool scales horribly for repetitive tasks, and the dos based cli tools for Netware are generally unstable. But Netware performs well, and has a lot of nice features linux doesn't have. the main advantages of the commercial stuff revolve around integration.
Fantasy: an all linux network, no windows. Nowhere. Now that would be nice.
sendmail is an smtp MTA. That's it. Exchange does shared calendaring, mail, discussion groups, smtp mangling, etc.
To get the equivalent in linux you would have to use several programs; inn, sendmail, an imap server(like cyrus), an ldap directory server(open ldap), among others. There isn't a good free unix shared calendar app that I know of, but there are a few inexpensive ones.
All said, it really is a bitch to get all this stuff working together smoothly under unix while presenting the user with a single, secure interface to it (e.g., Netscape Communicator or MSIE/OE). I've tried. There are a lot of snags. If you can handle hacking your own solutions, then it might be for you.
The main advantages of the shrink wrap integrated messaging environments like Messenger, Groupwise and Exchange is single sign on for users (this is very important to most people, no one wants to carry around a stack of passwords), and nice, easy setup and administration for admins. These things aren't to be overlooked.
The disadvantages are that they are hideously expensive and demand tremendous resources. Exchange for 350 active users would need at least 512MB, P2-400, several GB of disk.
What does ethernet routing have to do with RAID? (nothing).. Actually... what does it need a hard drive for?:-)
This contradicts my experience entirely. I do not find NT "faster" for any general purpose netwok duties like this, period.
the fact that you prefer NT's interface only hints to me that you don't know linux very well. I don't know anyone who uses unix and knows it and prefers menu based systems (still there is linuxconf which I use myself sometimes)
I've never seen that except on NT servers - always on asp pages. I mean IIS is famous for this. What gives? I've NEVER seen that on Apache.
Can't we try the test with linux on hardware that is more optimized?
Why not a test where both sides were allowed to spend $15,000 - software included - for their setup?
All linux people know DEC Tulip cards and 3 Com cards perform best in linux, and Mylex is pretty much the only choice in RAID controllers. The drivers can make all the difference...
Is it possible? This seems to be one of the min things hurting it in these tests. They have always failed to mention the four-ethernet trick, but that is exactly what they are doing.
Enlightenment is still flaky, and not even close to being complete. You need to write your own themes to change anything, and the default themes have widgets that are too small (to me) for any res above 800x600.
I wish RH included more window maker stuff, since that is by far the best wm out there (they have window maker, but no dock apps, you still need to go download a ton of crap to get a nice window maker setup).
At least they dropped that awful FVWM95 crap, and windowmaker is at least the default wm for the "Another Level" setup.
The biggest difference with the install is that the package selection is a LOT better.
Still no xemacs. Why?
Still no/opt; so KDE won't work with the added "switchdesk" tools unless you install it to the Red Hat locations.
They added/misc and/net... weird. Who thought that up?
Something like NDS, but it won't do it any good until all the server apps are directory enabled.
sendmail, imap, inn, nfs, lpd, apache... all this stuff needs to be directory enabled. This way one can log on once and have access to all the network resources that are directory-aware.
We do have Open LDAP but I find it a bitch to set up and use. Don't know much about the Open Group's DCE, it looks expensive.
I guess one could roll one's own (using PAM and such), but that is more work than most people care to do.
Re:The real pain of the IP address crunch felt tod
on
IP Address Shortage
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· Score: 1
they don't need to be the same... your customers don't have 16 million hosts, do they?
I mean one customer can take 10.0.1-2.x, the other 10.0.3-4.x and so on...
I remember a test about six months ago (in some ZD magazine) that tested linux, netware, solaris and NT with Gb ethernet adapters. NT maxed out at ~350Mb/sec, where all the others were getting above 800Mb/sec.
It's interesting to note that with 4x100Mb adapters around 350Mb/sec is the figure quoted for NT performance (which is great for that test, but crummy for Gb ethernet).
token passing and ATM networks are superior to collision detection, but it's a price performance thing. Ethernet is an open standard and it's CHEAP (and fast).
Not sure where you got the 75% figure from, but frm my experience once ethernet hits 50% utilization it is hosed (time for a switch).
I'm using linux at home for that too, I wanted to try BSD out of curiosity.
Besides, it is well known that BSD's NFS implementation is better than Linux's.
I want to try BSD .. but which one?
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*BSD News
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I plan on using it for to mount my/home and run squid on my lan at home... which one would be best?
I'd be running it on a P-150, 64MB. I have a copy of FreeBSD 3.0 but I was wondering if NetBSD or OpenBSD is better/more interesting for any purpose...
you were probably looking at cachedot.slashdot.org.
date: 12:42am uptime: 2:04, 2 users, load average: 1.87, 1.56, 1.38 processes: 112 I remember the uptimes this morning being at five days. I was having trouble getting on this evening too, so I checked. Was he upgrading kernels maybe?
the real loser in this ...
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NOS Crossroads
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· Score: 1
... is MacOS X. What with all the hubbub, it seems to have died out already. Why hasn't it been reviewed anywhere?
I'll bet we start seeing FreeBSD reviews in the trade press by sometime next year.
Is anyone else sick of these 4 CPU/4 ethernet/ file/web server on a 100Mb switch full duplex-static html "benchmarks"? Doesn't this seem childish, almost?
Oh well. It's time to pack it in, take slashdot down and reformat for NT. Linux just can't cut it, ZD Net says so.
I can't believe the amount of people using notepad in windows. What is going on here? I'm on the first leg of my long journey into learning emacs, and I can clearly see just how powerful this baby is. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant.
Since HTML is a purely text based medium, how can you beat a scripting language whose main strength is manipulating text - perl and others - and a great text editor? The wysiwyg tools may get you started faster, but if you plan on doing this professionally, there is no avoiding learning what you need to learn. Knowing HTML, perl and emacs are highly portable skills which never become obsolete. Yes, it's hard to learn, but think of it as an investment. Skill at wysiwyg editors becomes obsolete with every new fad editor which comes out.
Let's put it this way. If you were hiring someone as a web developer, and you asked them what tools they used to develop web sites, would you hire the one that was a perl/emacs/html/sql expert, or a dreamweaver "expert"? You need to know the standards, inside and out, and you need to know the standards compliance level of the various browsers. There just isn't any substitute.
Slashdot Mirror
This story's only been up for a few minutes ... and it runs on Micros~1 (it doesn't end in "asp" but it does end in "htm" - a sure giveaway).
Everyone hit your reload buttons a few times!!
But "volume discounts" on software should not be legal. It's a positively ridiculous notion (although it is true). The software industry is so absurdly corrupt it's painful to even think about it.
OEM's should be able to offer various OS's at little cost. The real economies of scale come into play where a company like Dell invests in assembly line style manufacturing of PC's where windows is installed on every PC. But even here it should be that difficult to offer additional OS's. Mainly it's a matter of having people who know how to configure the OS.
- no they don't - the RPM's are for RH 5.x only
I just want a distribution that basically installs software to the same locations that the software would put itself in if I were to download the source and compile. Red Hat - all versions - is a total pain in the ass if one likes to upgrade things without having to wait for RH to produce an RPM. I guess this leaves Slackware but I'd really like a glibc 2.1 based distribution ...
WindowMaker is still completely hosed, I can't understand why this happens. I've had varying results on different machines, but usually it doesn't work.
Also I have big problems running X programs remotely. Even after "mkxauth blah" "blah" still can't connect to the display ...
xfs is totally fucked. It can't serve fonts remotely (though it says it can in the man pages) - maybe Red Hat has disabled this little feature without telling anyone? On some installations xfs doesn't even pick up my fonts which are installed locally, even though I've gone trough the proper procedures to add them.
Has anyone else had troubles with RH6? For me it's been so bad I've decided to go Debian.
... /usr). To make matters worse, you need to install KDE from source to install it under /opt now since KDE is no longer making RPMs.
Eg., on full install, WindowMaker does not work, many things crash randomly. I've installed it on about 5 machines, all with major weirdnesses.
xfs doesn't work at all sometimes. True type fonts stopped working, and problems with xauth
KDE is strewn all to hell and gone across the hard disk instead of all under $KDEDIR (which they make
It seems OK as long as X and none of their X hacked junk gets installed.
We use Netware because basically it kicks ass for PC file serving and printing. Probably we will use it for Groupwise and zen as well when we go to NW5. Netware is awesome for making the best of windows pc networks - zen is hard to beat. The only problem is that application vendors are usually quick to blame net
We use NT because our application vendors don't seem to be aware that anything else exists (read: we are forced to).
We use linux because it is so easy to manage and such a joy to work with. No, it doesn't have some advanced apps like NDS, but linux is so easy to deal with. I've completely fallen in love with it.
NT is just a bitch, I can't stand her. Netware is nice and stable, but troubleshooting can be painful when things go wrong. Netware is very clunky to manage in some respects - the NWAdmin tool scales horribly for repetitive tasks, and the dos based cli tools for Netware are generally unstable. But Netware performs well, and has a lot of nice features linux doesn't have. the main advantages of the commercial stuff revolve around integration.
Fantasy: an all linux network, no windows. Nowhere. Now that would be nice.
sendmail is an smtp MTA. That's it. Exchange does shared calendaring, mail, discussion groups, smtp mangling, etc.
To get the equivalent in linux you would have to use several programs; inn, sendmail, an imap server(like cyrus), an ldap directory server(open ldap), among others. There isn't a good free unix shared calendar app that I know of, but there are a few inexpensive ones.
All said, it really is a bitch to get all this stuff working together smoothly under unix while presenting the user with a single, secure interface to it (e.g., Netscape Communicator or MSIE/OE). I've tried. There are a lot of snags.
If you can handle hacking your own solutions, then it might be for you.
The main advantages of the shrink wrap integrated messaging environments like Messenger, Groupwise and Exchange is single sign on for users (this is very important to most people, no one wants to carry around a stack of passwords), and nice, easy setup and administration for admins. These things aren't to be overlooked.
The disadvantages are that they are hideously expensive and demand tremendous resources. Exchange for 350 active users would need at least 512MB, P2-400, several GB of disk.
What does ethernet routing have to do with RAID? (nothing).. Actually ... what does it need a hard drive for? :-)
This contradicts my experience entirely. I do not find NT "faster" for any general purpose netwok duties like this, period.
the fact that you prefer NT's interface only hints to me that you don't know linux very well. I don't know anyone who uses unix and knows it and prefers menu based systems (still there is linuxconf which I use myself sometimes)
Most games are multi-player now. I'm not talking about the built in ones, which are ususally disabled when you are playing a network game.
or rather "open source" ... would't it be easy to modify the code and recompile, so that you could cheat?
I've never seen that except on NT servers - always on asp pages. I mean IIS is famous for this. What gives? I've NEVER seen that on Apache.
...
Can't we try the test with linux on hardware that is more optimized?
Why not a test where both sides were allowed to spend $15,000 - software included - for their setup?
All linux people know DEC Tulip cards and 3 Com cards perform best in linux, and Mylex is pretty much the only choice in RAID controllers. The drivers can make all the difference
xemacs belongs in any linux dostribution, period. Not to mention one that comes on three CD's. Or costs 80!
There are some niceties to it that GNU emacs doesn't have.
Is it possible? This seems to be one of the min things hurting it in these tests. They have always failed to mention the four-ethernet trick, but that is exactly what they are doing.
Enlightenment is still flaky, and not even close to being complete. You need to write your own themes to change anything, and the default themes have widgets that are too small (to me) for any res above 800x600.
/opt; so KDE won't work with the added "switchdesk" tools unless you install it to the Red Hat locations.
/misc and /net ... weird. Who thought that up?
I wish RH included more window maker stuff, since that is by far the best wm out there (they have window maker, but no dock apps, you still need to go download a ton of crap to get a nice window maker setup).
At least they dropped that awful FVWM95 crap, and windowmaker is at least the default wm for the "Another Level" setup.
The biggest difference with the install is that the package selection is a LOT better.
Still no xemacs. Why?
Still no
They added
Still the rogue file locations as always.
Something like NDS, but it won't do it any good until all the server apps are directory enabled.
... all this stuff needs to be directory enabled. This way one can log on once and have access to all the network resources that are directory-aware.
sendmail, imap, inn, nfs, lpd, apache
We do have Open LDAP but I find it a bitch to set up and use. Don't know much about the Open Group's DCE, it looks expensive.
I guess one could roll one's own (using PAM and such), but that is more work than most people care to do.
they don't need to be the same ... your customers don't have 16 million hosts, do they?
...
I mean one customer can take 10.0.1-2.x, the other 10.0.3-4.x and so on
It's interesting to note that with 4x100Mb adapters around 350Mb/sec is the figure quoted for NT performance (which is great for that test, but crummy for Gb ethernet).
token passing and ATM networks are superior to collision detection, but it's a price performance thing. Ethernet is an open standard and it's CHEAP (and fast).
Not sure where you got the 75% figure from, but frm my experience once ethernet hits 50% utilization it is hosed (time for a switch).
Besides, it is well known that BSD's NFS implementation is better than Linux's.
I'd be running it on a P-150, 64MB. I have a copy of FreeBSD 3.0 but I was wondering if NetBSD or OpenBSD is better/more interesting for any purpose ...
date: 12:42am
uptime: 2:04, 2 users, load average: 1.87, 1.56, 1.38
processes: 112
I remember the uptimes this morning being at five days. I was having trouble getting on this evening too, so I checked. Was he upgrading kernels maybe?
... is MacOS X. What with all the hubbub, it seems to have died out already. Why hasn't it been reviewed anywhere?
I'll bet we start seeing FreeBSD reviews in the trade press by sometime next year.
Is anyone else sick of these 4 CPU/4 ethernet/ file/web server on a 100Mb switch full duplex-static html "benchmarks"? Doesn't this seem childish, almost?
Oh well. It's time to pack it in, take slashdot down and reformat for NT. Linux just can't cut it, ZD Net says so.
I can't believe the amount of people using notepad in windows. What is going on here? I'm on the first leg of my long journey into learning emacs, and I can clearly see just how powerful this baby is. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant.
Since HTML is a purely text based medium, how can you beat a scripting language whose main strength is manipulating text - perl and others - and a great text editor? The wysiwyg tools may get you started faster, but if you plan on doing this professionally, there is no avoiding learning what you need to learn. Knowing HTML, perl and emacs are highly portable skills which never become obsolete. Yes, it's hard to learn, but think of it as an investment. Skill at wysiwyg editors becomes obsolete with every new fad editor which comes out.
Let's put it this way. If you were hiring someone as a web developer, and you asked them what tools they used to develop web sites, would you hire the one that was a perl/emacs/html/sql expert, or a dreamweaver "expert"? You need to know the standards, inside and out, and you need to know the standards compliance level of the various browsers. There just isn't any substitute.
how can you beat that?
Well wasn't that him?
A cool movie, BTW, everyone should see it.
Will you guys quit being rumor mongers? Bob Young has officially stated that he has no intention of going public.