Logged in for the first time in years in order to say something very much like this. I also tried to tweak query to disable geo-refining of solutions, force including all of my search terms in my results and so on, wrap the whole thing up in a Firefox-bookmark macro. And if I use it too frequently, the bloody stupid captcha comes up. I noticed the bit about "a bot or behaviour the website owner doesn't like". Well, I don't like the stupefying nature of their dumbed down searches that will drop search terms just so it gets extra hits. But I do like the fact DuckDuckGo is around for when Google is pissing me off.
I am a person who's had two systems encounter must-revert-Jessie-to-Wheezy problems and another which will get reverted or BSDed when I can afford the office downtime.
That's what prompted me to stop by and argue with your "that don't actually happen" problem. And then I read your "despite numerous complaints (and valid concerns), is causing all so rts of headaches and isn't perfect".
How are you reconciling those two statements in your head?
I've heard heaps of "constructive input" - like, go back to text logs, don't hook everything directly into systemd, keep the separate functionalities like firewalling and su out of systemd.
I get the impression that a lot of your post, like most of the people who say systemd is great and the haters are just haters, just doesn't make a lot of sense.
I get that you're trying to unite the people and constructively move forward, likening the entire situation to a political issue (I am from a country unaffected by Obamacare). But the problems so far are that a) you're devaluing the experienced people who are having really big problems with systemd and b) suggesting that we choke down those issues and keep moving forward. WITH systemd.
Yes. Just drop the topic. Just drop the discussion or thinking about anything that might be at all controversial; or inspire somebody to begin studying it closer; or give them any kind of background, skills or concepts which would enable them to study it or anything else even vaguely controversial.
Yes. Let's just stop teaching things 'cause it gives us squirmy feels.
Yes. Let's just stop any consideration of anything that can't be reproduced in a lab (which evolution can be and has been) or examined first-hand.
Yes. Just skip the chapters. Yes. Just skip. Just skip. Skip skip skip....
I regret having just eaten and then coming to read this. The content of your post makes me feel physically ill. A world dominated by attitudes and policies like this would be a wretched disgusting sinkhole sliding further back into barbarism. What you've suggested and described should be treated as an obscenity. This is nothing short of despicable.
I feel sorry for the other student who had enough of a brain to ask such a question of a course of action so approved by you and the teacher. I hope that other student went on to bigger, better, brighter things than that class and attitude. Like, say, a knuckle-sized lump of coal.
I had a home server on Wheezy (or, should I say, "stable". Wow, not gonna make that mistake again). I did a dist-upgrade before I'd read the release announcement and spent five minutes wondering why my home page no longer came up.
"What do you mean, 'Please upgrade your kernel before or while upgrading udev'? What do you mean, 'can't install linux-image-amd64', udev is broken'?" What the hell happened to my beautiful Wheezy -
- oh, crap, what do you mean, Jessie with systemd is the new stable ALREADY.
I also tried Pikoro's instructions above twice in a VM at work; *twice*, got the installer failing on me at the "Installing Software" step. And no hint as to what went wrong. So screw it, I thought. I'll install off the live image with all the defaults including that f'ed up systemd, rather than off the xfce-image.
"Oh, look. Broken a third time at the 'Installing Software' step. Using no online repositories (behind a work firewall with a corporate authenticator I can't use in the install environment) with the default first DVD image. And it still broke in the 'Installing Software' step."... so, my hat off and some deep respect to Pikoro and those who got Jessie to install without the systemdevil, let alone *with the ordinary defaults*. I'm just glad I got an archived copy of 7.8.0, because: - an on-the-metal upgrade FAILED to upgrade and has forced every service offline - two VM installs with the xfce-cd, trying to keep systemd out failed - a third VM install with the first full DVD, trying to keep out systemd failed - and a fourth VM install, with the live disk image and accepting all the defaults failed.
Damn you RedHat, damn you everyone who brought systemd to light.
And damn you Debian, for going along with this - and pushing me the biggest Debian lie I've ever seen - "upgraded painlessly without forced downtime".
Call my evidence anecdotal, call it a data point in a shifting window. I call it the next day I can spare re-installing Debian 7.8.0, excluding every Jessie/Stable repository and repartitioning a 20W machine I set up over four years ago so that these upgrade stuff-ups will never necessitate me restoring from backup again.
Thanks for Wheezy, Debian. I hope against, but do believe that's going to be the last time I thank the Debian project again and hope like crazy Devuan does a good fork.
The difficulty with all of the arguments, is that a significant proportion of them are emotionally based, rather than technical, but all are couched in a technical setting,
That's interesting. What I saw just there was technical arguments, summarised in a comprehensible, mostly non-technical fashion.
I am happy to have systemd on some machines, and happy to not have it on others.
I'm not. Given your situation, I'd now have to know two init systems to manage all the machines which happen to be running the same operating system.
With regards to this whole topic, the best bet when you see a discussion unfold is sit back with popcorn and watch either sides arguments dissolve into logical fallacy.
And these forkers didn't. As a result, the people who DO want systemd won't have their choices forced upon the people who DON'T want systemd.
I started as a desktop user who was learning network and system admin. Now I have my lap/desktops and a NAS and a server which I run myself rather than cloud-insanity (and someday I hope my job will involve me administering something other than Windows). But systemd has already impacted me negatively even on just the desktops.
Hi. I'm not American. But my country has been in a formal alliance with America since about 1951, about 20 years before I was born.
I'm an IT guy. The closest I've ever been to any government-type work is when I spent most of 9 months working with the State (not Federal) Government office as a part of a Master's-by-Research degree at looking into whether Open Source software might possibly be feasible for such office use. The research was not completed, however. Now I just work back at the same university where I was doing the research study. At the moment, I'm working in the IT security team.
So: am I "foreign"?
Do I deserve to have my communications tracked?
If I send/receive encrypted e-mail to/from one of my colleagues who got me into the habit of sending such an e-mail, which basically consists of bitching about our (public, education-sector) boss, then do I really need to have that e-mail stored on an NSA server until they expend the resources necessary to crack my GPG? Do I really need to be considered guilty before there's been any kind of assessment as to exactly what I'm hiding from whom?
Or, to put it slightly more crudely - do you think the definition of "foreign" makes any damn difference to the great majority of the Internet (read: world) who are inappropriately impacted by all this NSA bull?
> I suggest that some people need to grow up, and realise that the West is the absolute paragon of virtue compared to what Russia, China and Muslim countries are doing.
> I shudder to think what will happen to the world when the baton of world domination is handed to these despots. I know the techno-libertarian crowd will be celebrating.
That Russia is, as you put it, "the Devil Incarnate" and America opposes Russia in certain areas does not make America "the absolute paragon of virtue compared" (and you might want to think what "absolute" and "compared" mean).
Instead, let's look at it this way: does the average Russian/American have any reason or want to harm the average American/Russian? No?
Maybe the Good/Evil split should be viewed along different lines: does the average American/Russian have their lives made any harder by the American/Russian government, to the benefit of that government? Really? Well, maybe the American/Russian people might be viewing the government the way you think one "country" views another.
The AC's "infallible government leadership" comment got downvoted to zero. The "Crikey Dingo" comment got karmaed to 5. This is the kind of crap I usually return to Slashdot for after getting disappointed with the massmind idiots on Reddit.
That debate appears to have already been concluded. The debate now seems mostly about how to push forward what is right, rather than let your elected government, the premiere power of your land, run roughshod all over people using the very same rules that are supposed to prevent them doing just that; how to make the laws/crimes match what's right/wrong.
The old Doctor Who had the occasional grim-and-gritty (the kind that made Question Time in Parliament complain about it). The new Who is full of "if you hope and feel hard enough, you can overcome alien technology, incomprehensible gods and the laws of physics". Even the last episode was proof enough of that.
I've met Gareth Thomas. I weep for Blake. The new Avon will probably look like Sheldon Cooper, Vila will be cool and Cally will probably be slutting up to everybody. Remember what Galactica's new producers said in an early interview - we're gonna modernise. That means sex with hot blonde robots.
Funnily enough, I do believe that's the point on which we were previously relying.
You seem to be bringing a lot of personal snark into this. Not to mention, this was never originally pointed at any of the users (as you're quite clearly saying with your "inferiority" comments).
This was about Microsoft's plan to circumscribe search results depending on the user's "mood" and "intelligence"; what this implies in a future when people are already burying their heads in the sand, as it is.
And - I'll reiterate, seeing as you seem to have missed this the first time - this is about people who keep using these tools and choose to not learn more about the tools they're using. Would you like me to say that I feel superior over people who refuse to learn things; when I don't refuse to learn things outside of my own scope? Would that satisfy your need to feel superior?
Furthermore, you comment about stating "Apple users are idiots who don't know a thing about their computers"; I would rather say that "people using Apple or Windows and don't know anything and refuse repeatedly to learn about their tools are idiots".
... much like people who can't seem to read comments with a sufficient level of comprehension, but with plenty of personal issues brought in to cloud said comprehension.
You sound like the person who doesn't understand that we diesel mechanics keep meeting so many truck drivers who can't comprehend what the truck is and is not capable of doing.
They buy into the iTruck hype and keep assuming that the damn thing will keep driving itself down the I-95 while they have a quick kip behind the wheel. And then blame us when they end up in a ditch.
Hence, me bringing up the point of the meanings being conflated. It, contrary to popular (indeed, encouraged) belief, doesn'tjust work. Hence, the diesel mechanics tend to think less of the truck drivers who haven't bothered to ever look under their hoods; and berate us for making the mere suggestion that they might consider doing so.
a) Because these people don't really get how to use these devices.
b) I think you're conflating grandparent's use of "It just works" meaning "don't think or customise, just use what we give you", with the idea of these Apple products really, genuinely "just working".
Slashdot Mirror
Logged in for the first time in years in order to say something very much like this. I also tried to tweak query to disable geo-refining of solutions, force including all of my search terms in my results and so on, wrap the whole thing up in a Firefox-bookmark macro. And if I use it too frequently, the bloody stupid captcha comes up. I noticed the bit about "a bot or behaviour the website owner doesn't like". Well, I don't like the stupefying nature of their dumbed down searches that will drop search terms just so it gets extra hits. But I do like the fact DuckDuckGo is around for when Google is pissing me off.
I am a person who's had two systems encounter must-revert-Jessie-to-Wheezy problems and another which will get reverted or BSDed when I can afford the office downtime.
That's what prompted me to stop by and argue with your "that don't actually happen" problem. And then I read your "despite numerous complaints (and valid concerns), is causing all so rts of headaches and isn't perfect".
How are you reconciling those two statements in your head?
I've heard heaps of "constructive input" - like, go back to text logs, don't hook everything directly into systemd, keep the separate functionalities like firewalling and su out of systemd.
I get the impression that a lot of your post, like most of the people who say systemd is great and the haters are just haters, just doesn't make a lot of sense.
I get that you're trying to unite the people and constructively move forward, likening the entire situation to a political issue (I am from a country unaffected by Obamacare). But the problems so far are that a) you're devaluing the experienced people who are having really big problems with systemd and b) suggesting that we choke down those issues and keep moving forward. WITH systemd.
Yes. Just drop the topic. Just drop the discussion or thinking about anything that might be at all controversial; or inspire somebody to begin studying it closer; or give them any kind of background, skills or concepts which would enable them to study it or anything else even vaguely controversial.
Yes. Let's just stop teaching things 'cause it gives us squirmy feels.
Yes. Let's just stop any consideration of anything that can't be reproduced in a lab (which evolution can be and has been) or examined first-hand.
Yes. Just skip the chapters. Yes. Just skip. Just skip. Skip skip skip. ...
I regret having just eaten and then coming to read this. The content of your post makes me feel physically ill. A world dominated by attitudes and policies like this would be a wretched disgusting sinkhole sliding further back into barbarism. What you've suggested and described should be treated as an obscenity. This is nothing short of despicable.
I feel sorry for the other student who had enough of a brain to ask such a question of a course of action so approved by you and the teacher. I hope that other student went on to bigger, better, brighter things than that class and attitude. Like, say, a knuckle-sized lump of coal.
> "Must be an ordinary text file" - is that a law of nature? Why should it be a text file?
Because 111010010001 1011 0100011 00100 01 01000110111101 01110010100000001101011 110100100101 010 110100100011 00010111 00 1010101101010 01011110110.
I had a home server on Wheezy (or, should I say, "stable". Wow, not gonna make that mistake again). I did a dist-upgrade before I'd read the release announcement and spent five minutes wondering why my home page no longer came up.
"What do you mean, 'Please upgrade your kernel before or while upgrading udev'? What do you mean, 'can't install linux-image-amd64', udev is broken'?" What the hell happened to my beautiful Wheezy -
- oh, crap, what do you mean, Jessie with systemd is the new stable ALREADY.
I also tried Pikoro's instructions above twice in a VM at work; *twice*, got the installer failing on me at the "Installing Software" step. And no hint as to what went wrong. So screw it, I thought. I'll install off the live image with all the defaults including that f'ed up systemd, rather than off the xfce-image.
"Oh, look. Broken a third time at the 'Installing Software' step. Using no online repositories (behind a work firewall with a corporate authenticator I can't use in the install environment) with the default first DVD image. And it still broke in the 'Installing Software' step." ... so, my hat off and some deep respect to Pikoro and those who got Jessie to install without the systemdevil, let alone *with the ordinary defaults*. I'm just glad I got an archived copy of 7.8.0, because:
- an on-the-metal upgrade FAILED to upgrade and has forced every service offline
- two VM installs with the xfce-cd, trying to keep systemd out failed
- a third VM install with the first full DVD, trying to keep out systemd failed
- and a fourth VM install, with the live disk image and accepting all the defaults failed.
Damn you RedHat, damn you everyone who brought systemd to light.
And damn you Debian, for going along with this - and pushing me the biggest Debian lie I've ever seen - "upgraded painlessly without forced downtime".
Call my evidence anecdotal, call it a data point in a shifting window. I call it the next day I can spare re-installing Debian 7.8.0, excluding every Jessie/Stable repository and repartitioning a 20W machine I set up over four years ago so that these upgrade stuff-ups will never necessitate me restoring from backup again.
Thanks for Wheezy, Debian. I hope against, but do believe that's going to be the last time I thank the Debian project again and hope like crazy Devuan does a good fork.
Set up your systemd box. Edit your fstab so that a device you'd normally define as "noauto"-mount is left out and tries to automount when not there.
The crap which had to be gone through to identify and fix that? May this bring more understanding to you.
The difficulty with all of the arguments, is that a significant proportion of them are emotionally based, rather than technical, but all are couched in a technical setting,
That's interesting. What I saw just there was technical arguments, summarised in a comprehensible, mostly non-technical fashion.
I am happy to have systemd on some machines, and happy to not have it on others.
I'm not. Given your situation, I'd now have to know two init systems to manage all the machines which happen to be running the same operating system.
With regards to this whole topic, the best bet when you see a discussion unfold is sit back with popcorn and watch either sides arguments dissolve into logical fallacy.
And these forkers didn't. As a result, the people who DO want systemd won't have their choices forced upon the people who DON'T want systemd.
I started as a desktop user who was learning network and system admin. Now I have my lap/desktops and a NAS and a server which I run myself rather than cloud-insanity (and someday I hope my job will involve me administering something other than Windows). But systemd has already impacted me negatively even on just the desktops.
Don't you mean "Schools of Game Design and Computer Security"?
... but not Yori, Quorra or even Vanellope?
Not to mention... isn't there a good chance they might be using much of the same infrastructure?
Hi. I'm not American. But my country has been in a formal alliance with America since about 1951, about 20 years before I was born.
I'm an IT guy. The closest I've ever been to any government-type work is when I spent most of 9 months working with the State (not Federal) Government office as a part of a Master's-by-Research degree at looking into whether Open Source software might possibly be feasible for such office use. The research was not completed, however. Now I just work back at the same university where I was doing the research study. At the moment, I'm working in the IT security team.
So: am I "foreign"?
Do I deserve to have my communications tracked?
If I send/receive encrypted e-mail to/from one of my colleagues who got me into the habit of sending such an e-mail, which basically consists of bitching about our (public, education-sector) boss, then do I really need to have that e-mail stored on an NSA server until they expend the resources necessary to crack my GPG? Do I really need to be considered guilty before there's been any kind of assessment as to exactly what I'm hiding from whom?
Or, to put it slightly more crudely - do you think the definition of "foreign" makes any damn difference to the great majority of the Internet (read: world) who are inappropriately impacted by all this NSA bull?
> I suggest that some people need to grow up, and realise that the West is the absolute paragon of virtue compared to what Russia, China and Muslim countries are doing.
> I shudder to think what will happen to the world when the baton of world domination is handed to these despots. I know the techno-libertarian crowd will be celebrating.
That Russia is, as you put it, "the Devil Incarnate" and America opposes Russia in certain areas does not make America "the absolute paragon of virtue compared" (and you might want to think what "absolute" and "compared" mean).
Instead, let's look at it this way: does the average Russian/American have any reason or want to harm the average American/Russian? No?
Maybe the Good/Evil split should be viewed along different lines: does the average American/Russian have their lives made any harder by the American/Russian government, to the benefit of that government? Really? Well, maybe the American/Russian people might be viewing the government the way you think one "country" views another.
Sure. But you don't risk arrest and losing the ability to feed your family by working for the government.
The AC's "infallible government leadership" comment got downvoted to zero. The "Crikey Dingo" comment got karmaed to 5. This is the kind of crap I usually return to Slashdot for after getting disappointed with the massmind idiots on Reddit.
... NSA... :-)
Hi. I'm from a country that isn't America and the great proportion of these ads are from companies that don't exist in my country.
You bet I do research instead of looking at the ads. You say it works. Global economics demonstrates that it doesn't.
Why, exactly, is the NSA planning to invade parts of America?
That debate appears to have already been concluded. The debate now seems mostly about how to push forward what is right, rather than let your elected government, the premiere power of your land, run roughshod all over people using the very same rules that are supposed to prevent them doing just that; how to make the laws/crimes match what's right/wrong.
Not likely.
The old Doctor Who had the occasional grim-and-gritty (the kind that made Question Time in Parliament complain about it). The new Who is full of "if you hope and feel hard enough, you can overcome alien technology, incomprehensible gods and the laws of physics". Even the last episode was proof enough of that.
I've met Gareth Thomas. I weep for Blake. The new Avon will probably look like Sheldon Cooper, Vila will be cool and Cally will probably be slutting up to everybody. Remember what Galactica's new producers said in an early interview - we're gonna modernise. That means sex with hot blonde robots.
... should be called "Somersaulting Shark"?
Funnily enough, I do believe that's the point on which we were previously relying.
... much like people who can't seem to read comments with a sufficient level of comprehension, but with plenty of personal issues brought in to cloud said comprehension.
You seem to be bringing a lot of personal snark into this. Not to mention, this was never originally pointed at any of the users (as you're quite clearly saying with your "inferiority" comments).
This was about Microsoft's plan to circumscribe search results depending on the user's "mood" and "intelligence"; what this implies in a future when people are already burying their heads in the sand, as it is.
And - I'll reiterate, seeing as you seem to have missed this the first time - this is about people who keep using these tools and
choose to not learn more about the tools they're using. Would you like me to say that I feel superior over people who refuse to learn things; when I don't refuse to learn things outside of my own scope? Would that satisfy your need to feel superior?
Furthermore, you comment about stating "Apple users are idiots who don't know a thing about their computers"; I would rather say that "people using Apple or Windows and don't know anything and refuse repeatedly to learn about their tools are idiots".
You sound like the person who doesn't understand that we diesel mechanics keep meeting so many truck drivers who can't comprehend what the truck is and is not capable of doing.
They buy into the iTruck hype and keep assuming that the damn thing will keep driving itself down the I-95 while they have a quick kip behind the wheel. And then blame us when they end up in a ditch.
Hence, me bringing up the point of the meanings being conflated. It, contrary to popular (indeed, encouraged) belief, doesn't just work. Hence, the diesel mechanics tend to think less of the truck drivers who haven't bothered to ever look under their hoods; and berate us for making the mere suggestion that they might consider doing so.
Okay, fair enough. So, what features of the Microsoft products is it that meets your needs better?
a) Because these people don't really get how to use these devices.
b) I think you're conflating grandparent's use of "It just works" meaning "don't think or customise, just use what we give you", with the idea of these Apple products really, genuinely "just working".
You're also right. Ever since I started supporting people with iPads, I accepted the truth of that.