>I have paid a lot of money for the Microsoft OS, >apps, and tools that I run on my computers. >Microsoft didn't pay me to install them.
No, but it appears they've paid a lot of money for you.
There's nothing sadder than a corporation that can charge people to screw them. This used to be limited to the occasional brothel, and the licensing fees for your average prostitute were much less exclusionary.
The idea of Microsoft having grassroots support isn't impossible - there are those who have invested in the company, and IT managers who have sold the company on Microsoft's inferior technology. Either way, Microsoft pays for the privilege in one way or another, making their grassroots campaign nothing more than astroturf.
Many of these people live in my home state of Washington. Gee, I wonder why (and yes, Patty Murray is indeed Microsoft's political 'dope on a rope').
...Of course, this isn't even accounting for those who they've paid to write opinions to local newspapers...
>No comment. I don't know enough about Apple. There >are definitely no alternative OS's,
Actually, LinuxPPC (and a few variants) are doing quite well on the Mac. Apple itself has lended a hand with MkLinux - although they seem to be backing out of that, the OS still exists and is being used.
There's also the BeOS, but it is seemingly losing support from Be. Despite what some will doubtlessly tell you, that's a 100% Be thing (perhaps with a little help from their primary investor, Intel). Until they decide to officially cut support, the BeOS is a dual platform OS.
>but then again, its also unique architecture... So >it is and isn't a monopoly, since apple user's >could always buy a PC instead.
True enough. A lot of people don't realize this. Apple is part of the same industry, just widely divergent. They don't have monopoly power, except in their own products (which makes sense - GM chooses what goes into their own cars, for instance).
In fact, Apple has lost some customers due to this very problem. Despite the fact that it involves shifting to an inferior OS ("What? I have to rename my files?"), switching to a PC from a Mac is very easy. Switching from a PC to a Mac, while getting easier, is tough due to the lack of equivelent applications.
1. Posting a story about what those who frequent a popular web site think about a big news item related to that site.
2. The popular web site posting a story about how another web site is publishing a story about it, and ripping on it for being lame/stupid because of it.
#1 is kind of lame, but has some sort of content. #2 is kind of lame, and essentially does the same as #1 but without bringing anything meaningful.
*shrug* I guess every once in a while we need a story about how the "mainstream" media doesn't "get it". Stroke some egos.
Chris Randall of SMG is a geek if I've ever seen one - in the best sense, of course. He's got a thing going on with the BeOS and can discuss Moore's Law with the best of 'em.
http://www.smg.org
He's also, oddly enough, quite anti-Mac (odd for an industrial/electronica musician). I don't agree with him in that respect, but I've found that most non-geeks give a damn either way.
Makes damn good music though.
Also, Trent Reznor has a history with electronics. I believe he majored in EE in college (?). Either way, he's definately more pro-Mac than Chris is.:>
...and you would prefer what? A gray page, a badly dithered graphic of a mailbox at the bottom, and pages upon pages of 9 pt. text running from the far left margin to the right?
For example, let's take a look at your page:
http://www.foad.org/%7Eabigail/
I agree with one thing - at the top of your page you say that the web is largely content-free. That's correct, and a shame. There are a couple problems here though. First, your page is mostly a page of links. That's not bad, per se, but it doesn't lend much to your argument. You also make the assumption that to have content you must have a butt-ugly page. Not true. Slashdot, for instance, uses tables for layout purposes. On the page you're looking at now, they are used to enforce a graphical representation of a conversational thread.
I assume you'd agree that Slashdot is of value. Most sites people enjoy - even those such as this one which are built on content and little else - also happen to be pleasing to the eye. There are dozens of layout rules that actually make content literally easier to read. Many in the 'gray page' crowd seem to forget that reading a dozen pages of 9 pt type stretched across their browser window isn't nearly as easy as reading that on a page or well designed web site.
Humans are visual creatures. Don't just throw out thousands of years of knowledge in layout, aesthetics, and user interface design because the standard doesn't keep up. What do you think CSS and the like is for? Seperating presentation from content.
I'm all for moderation, but not extremism. Use the technologies that make sense and are as inclusive as possible without sacrificing your goals. Use ALT tags as much as possible, etc. But don't stop progress.
(BTW: You use a two-cell wide table near the bottom of your page for seemingly presentational purposes only. I'd suggest changing that right away, as it completely goes against your philosophy)
About 4 and a half years ago I met my S.O. online, and it worked fine. Over the 'net it may be a different story, though - it's not a matter of meeting online or not, it's a matter of geography. I met my girlfriend via old-school BBSes (bulletin board systems), where everyone lived in the same geographic region of the state. My gf was about 15 minutes away.
The thing is, while our relationship started online, it grew past that. First we moved on to phone calls, then to meeting in person. I think that on the plus side we got to know eachother as people better online and over the phone (skipping some of the initial guess-work that comes with meeting a person in person). However, eventually that has to give way. I don't really have much faith in cross-country relationships due to the lack of real personal contact. I've known a number of people who have been burnt from that.
The 'net is inherantly global which, while very very cool in its own right, doesn't help relationships too much. With the death of the local BBSing scene(s), I'm not so sure it's as realistic that it'll work.
Another point of possible interest: I'm a computer person, she's not. She'd call the boards regularly for chatroom use, while I was more interested in running my own board or perusing FidoNET. Geeks and non-geeks can and do get along. Trust me.:>
Not all of us have the same ideology as you do. Some of us think it'd be great if it were easier for ethical developers of commercial software can do business without the threat of being crushed.
Those who develop software in part for financial gain are not The Great Satan. They are your friends, family, and anyone else who has to work for a living. Having code open-sourced is a great thing, but it's not a prerequisite for an ethical company.
I'm for choice, not for 'choice as long as it falls under the GPL'.
What's up with these spurious lawsuits? A company should be able to do whatever they want as long as they aren't somehow predatory or it cuts people off of essential services. 1. AOL is by no means essential. The nationwide '911' system is essential. AOL is entertainment for the weak minded. 2. AOL is a corporation. Cutting out the blind harms marketshare, so it's in AOL's interest to maximize that. If they haven't done so already, it's obviously impractical for their purposes (or they haven't got to it yet). 3. If AOL doesn't have these capabilities, someone else can come along and provide them. Is AOL to provide concessions for every single kind of disability? It may sound cruel or something, but to be perfectly honest, this is AOL's business. Boycott their service, etc. but don't sue them. That's just cheap. As they aren't a monopoly and don't provide an essential service, it's their right to provide whatever they want (in my opinion). I may not like it, but online accessability online isn't as easy as slapping a ramp down in front of a building...
1. Twin Peaks was, if I remember, well after Packard Bell was formed.
2. 'Gordon Shumway'? Wasn't that the name of the alien in 'Alf'?
...Regardless, I'm sure the layoff of Packard Bell employees will do wonders for the hardware industry. Just when you thought that eMachines couldn't get any worse...
Quit complaining. Our industries wouldn't be there unless your country - which you do not divulge - asked for it. Most likely the idea of having jobs created automagically was a big draw. Unless this was a case of the US govt. taking over your country by force (which I don't support), you have only your own government to blame. All the while, the people seem more than happy to use US commerce for what it's worth.
If you don't like that, hold an election or overthrow the reigning government. It's been done before.
>btw: wall street is about to explode, bigger than >1929 (only marxist economic theorys applied if you >ask).
>>Immigrants tend to be very hard workers, and >>second or third generation immigrants are often >>members of the middle or upper class.
>Hmmm. I live in Palo Alto, California. When I meet >middle and high class people, they are almost >invariably white.
What are you talking about?
If you are white, odds are your grandparents, great grandparents, etc. were not native to this country. You may have to go back a few decades, but the only people who really originated in this land are most certainly not traditional 'white' (and even then, Native Americans most likely came from somewhere else too). Why must one be not white to be an immigrant?
Anyhow, this classical liberalism track is kind of annoying. I believe everyone is responsible for their own destiny - America was at one time almost a blip on the world radar. It's unfortunate that not all countries are doing so well, but who do you blame? I don't see what the problem is with us just having done the same thing much much better. Given how the average American lives versus those in 3rd world countries, I'd say we were doing something right.
>I am interested in your evidence and the logic you >used to reach that conclusion. That is the point >of a discussion.
..and yet you forget to even mention what was missing in his argument. I saw two well written examples, myself. As one example, he gave reference to how certain 3rd world governments use the 'net to cut beauracracy.
His post may not have been perfect, but yours was most certainly worthless. You know what they say about those in glass houses...
I don't think it was much of a mistake (certainly not worthy of bitching about).
It could be said that a software 'program' is different than a driver or something. When I think of 'program' or 'application' I think of a tool, versus stuff like drivers or underlying OS code that is never interacted with.
But guess what? It doesn't matter. Katz isn't critiquing the latest OS releases or pondering the best executable format.
If he hadn't groped Paula Jones in the first place, he'd have never been called to testify - which means he wouldn't have had to lie.
When your President is a lying, cheating loser, there are worse things than 'embarrassing' him. Personally, I think a guy like that is immune to embarrassment.
You think DOS was the best around? Well, it was around, but I don't see where it was the best.
As for Windows (which is a seperate product, despite their current bundling status), it definately was never the best - or even adequete. Most Mac users, Amiga users, hell - any users - could have told you that. It got where it is due to the leverage that DOS had via IBM. Even then, it wasn't easy to not be laughed at: it was only accepted during the 3.X timeframe...
Problem is, that movie was a joke. The book 'Hackers' was actually very good.
The movie was so full of flaws and mischaracterizations it's not even funny. I'll toss out one example: If you had watched the movie and didn't know any better, you'd have thought that Windows was a 'big player' by the time the Mac was released. In reality, it didn't get anywhere until Win3.X came out.
Hackers was written as an exploration of the hacker community at MIT, etc. PoSV was made to sell advertising slots.
Slashdot Mirror
Good thing too, just in time for Windows 2001. :>
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
>I have paid a lot of money for the Microsoft OS,
>apps, and tools that I run on my computers.
>Microsoft didn't pay me to install them.
No, but it appears they've paid a lot of money for you.
There's nothing sadder than a corporation that can charge people to screw them. This used to be limited to the occasional brothel, and the licensing fees for your average prostitute were much less exclusionary.
The idea of Microsoft having grassroots support isn't impossible - there are those who have invested in the company, and IT managers who have sold the company on Microsoft's inferior technology. Either way, Microsoft pays for the privilege in one way or another, making their grassroots campaign nothing more than astroturf.
Many of these people live in my home state of Washington. Gee, I wonder why (and yes, Patty Murray is indeed Microsoft's political 'dope on a rope').
...Of course, this isn't even accounting for those who they've paid to write opinions to local newspapers...
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
>No comment. I don't know enough about Apple. There
>are definitely no alternative OS's,
Actually, LinuxPPC (and a few variants) are doing quite well on the Mac. Apple itself has lended a hand with MkLinux - although they seem to be backing out of that, the OS still exists and is being used.
There's also the BeOS, but it is seemingly losing support from Be. Despite what some will doubtlessly tell you, that's a 100% Be thing (perhaps with a little help from their primary investor, Intel). Until they decide to officially cut support, the BeOS is a dual platform OS.
>but then again, its also unique architecture... So
>it is and isn't a monopoly, since apple user's
>could always buy a PC instead.
True enough. A lot of people don't realize this. Apple is part of the same industry, just widely divergent. They don't have monopoly power, except in their own products (which makes sense - GM chooses what goes into their own cars, for instance).
In fact, Apple has lost some customers due to this very problem. Despite the fact that it involves shifting to an inferior OS ("What? I have to rename my files?"), switching to a PC from a Mac is very easy. Switching from a PC to a Mac, while getting easier, is tough due to the lack of equivelent applications.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
No, he's just adding something to the discussion.
Perhaps you can do the same some time?
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Agreed. Way back when, Macweek was actually pretty cool.
Now I get most of my news from MacNN.com, macintouch.com, etc.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Yeah, I'm sure they don't want those banner ad impressions or anything...
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
The question is, which is lamer?
1. Posting a story about what those who frequent a popular web site think about a big news item related to that site.
2. The popular web site posting a story about how another web site is publishing a story about it, and ripping on it for being lame/stupid because of it.
#1 is kind of lame, but has some sort of content. #2 is kind of lame, and essentially does the same as #1 but without bringing anything meaningful.
*shrug* I guess every once in a while we need a story about how the "mainstream" media doesn't "get it". Stroke some egos.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Chris Randall of SMG is a geek if I've ever seen one - in the best sense, of course. He's got a thing going on with the BeOS and can discuss Moore's Law with the best of 'em.
:>
http://www.smg.org
He's also, oddly enough, quite anti-Mac (odd for an industrial/electronica musician). I don't agree with him in that respect, but I've found that most non-geeks give a damn either way.
Makes damn good music though.
Also, Trent Reznor has a history with electronics. I believe he majored in EE in college (?). Either way, he's definately more pro-Mac than Chris is.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read the thread you're replying to?
There isn't a single person in this thread defending Microsoft.
(I hope you're glad you posted anonymous)
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
...and you would prefer what? A gray page, a badly dithered graphic of a mailbox at the bottom, and pages upon pages of 9 pt. text running from the far left margin to the right?
For example, let's take a look at your page:
http://www.foad.org/%7Eabigail/
I agree with one thing - at the top of your page you say that the web is largely content-free. That's correct, and a shame. There are a couple problems here though. First, your page is mostly a page of links. That's not bad, per se, but it doesn't lend much to your argument. You also make the assumption that to have content you must have a butt-ugly page. Not true. Slashdot, for instance, uses tables for layout purposes. On the page you're looking at now, they are used to enforce a graphical representation of a conversational thread.
I assume you'd agree that Slashdot is of value. Most sites people enjoy - even those such as this one which are built on content and little else - also happen to be pleasing to the eye. There are dozens of layout rules that actually make content literally easier to read. Many in the 'gray page' crowd seem to forget that reading a dozen pages of 9 pt type stretched across their browser window isn't nearly as easy as reading that on a page or well designed web site.
Humans are visual creatures. Don't just throw out thousands of years of knowledge in layout, aesthetics, and user interface design because the standard doesn't keep up. What do you think CSS and the like is for? Seperating presentation from content.
I'm all for moderation, but not extremism. Use the technologies that make sense and are as inclusive as possible without sacrificing your goals. Use ALT tags as much as possible, etc. But don't stop progress.
(BTW: You use a two-cell wide table near the bottom of your page for seemingly presentational purposes only. I'd suggest changing that right away, as it completely goes against your philosophy)
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Well, it worked for me.
:>
About 4 and a half years ago I met my S.O. online, and it worked fine. Over the 'net it may be a different story, though - it's not a matter of meeting online or not, it's a matter of geography. I met my girlfriend via old-school BBSes (bulletin board systems), where everyone lived in the same geographic region of the state. My gf was about 15 minutes away.
The thing is, while our relationship started online, it grew past that. First we moved on to phone calls, then to meeting in person. I think that on the plus side we got to know eachother as people better online and over the phone (skipping some of the initial guess-work that comes with meeting a person in person). However, eventually that has to give way. I don't really have much faith in cross-country relationships due to the lack of real personal contact. I've known a number of people who have been burnt from that.
The 'net is inherantly global which, while very very cool in its own right, doesn't help relationships too much. With the death of the local BBSing scene(s), I'm not so sure it's as realistic that it'll work.
Another point of possible interest: I'm a computer person, she's not. She'd call the boards regularly for chatroom use, while I was more interested in running my own board or perusing FidoNET. Geeks and non-geeks can and do get along. Trust me.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Not all of us have the same ideology as you do. Some of us think it'd be great if it were easier for ethical developers of commercial software can do business without the threat of being crushed.
Those who develop software in part for financial gain are not The Great Satan. They are your friends, family, and anyone else who has to work for a living. Having code open-sourced is a great thing, but it's not a prerequisite for an ethical company.
I'm for choice, not for 'choice as long as it falls under the GPL'.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
On the one hand, I'm all for banging Microsoft around for what they've done.
On the other, I'm afraid what this may mean - will the govt make itself a mover and shaker in the industry?
If they stick to spanking Microsoft's illegal activities, that's great. If they start legislating what can go into software, however...
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
What's up with these spurious lawsuits? A company should be able to do whatever they want as long as they aren't somehow predatory or it cuts people off of essential services. 1. AOL is by no means essential. The nationwide '911' system is essential. AOL is entertainment for the weak minded. 2. AOL is a corporation. Cutting out the blind harms marketshare, so it's in AOL's interest to maximize that. If they haven't done so already, it's obviously impractical for their purposes (or they haven't got to it yet). 3. If AOL doesn't have these capabilities, someone else can come along and provide them. Is AOL to provide concessions for every single kind of disability? It may sound cruel or something, but to be perfectly honest, this is AOL's business. Boycott their service, etc. but don't sue them. That's just cheap. As they aren't a monopoly and don't provide an essential service, it's their right to provide whatever they want (in my opinion). I may not like it, but online accessability online isn't as easy as slapping a ramp down in front of a building...
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
No offense, but you're full of it - right?
1. Twin Peaks was, if I remember, well after Packard Bell was formed.
2. 'Gordon Shumway'? Wasn't that the name of the alien in 'Alf'?
...Regardless, I'm sure the layoff of Packard Bell employees will do wonders for the hardware industry. Just when you thought that eMachines couldn't get any worse...
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Quit complaining. Our industries wouldn't be there unless your country - which you do not divulge - asked for it. Most likely the idea of having jobs created automagically was a big draw. Unless this was a case of the US govt. taking over your country by force (which I don't support), you have only your own government to blame. All the while, the people seem more than happy to use US commerce for what it's worth.
If you don't like that, hold an election or overthrow the reigning government. It's been done before.
>btw: wall street is about to explode, bigger than
>1929 (only marxist economic theorys applied if you
>ask).
Heh.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
>>Immigrants tend to be very hard workers, and
>>second or third generation immigrants are often
>>members of the middle or upper class.
>Hmmm. I live in Palo Alto, California. When I meet
>middle and high class people, they are almost
>invariably white.
What are you talking about?
If you are white, odds are your grandparents, great grandparents, etc. were not native to this country. You may have to go back a few decades, but the only people who really originated in this land are most certainly not traditional 'white' (and even then, Native Americans most likely came from somewhere else too). Why must one be not white to be an immigrant?
Anyhow, this classical liberalism track is kind of annoying. I believe everyone is responsible for their own destiny - America was at one time almost a blip on the world radar. It's unfortunate that not all countries are doing so well, but who do you blame? I don't see what the problem is with us just having done the same thing much much better. Given how the average American lives versus those in 3rd world countries, I'd say we were doing something right.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
>I am interested in your evidence and the logic you
>used to reach that conclusion. That is the point
>of a discussion.
..and yet you forget to even mention what was missing in his argument. I saw two well written examples, myself. As one example, he gave reference to how certain 3rd world governments use the 'net to cut beauracracy.
His post may not have been perfect, but yours was most certainly worthless. You know what they say about those in glass houses...
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
I don't think it was much of a mistake (certainly not worthy of bitching about).
It could be said that a software 'program' is different than a driver or something. When I think of 'program' or 'application' I think of a tool, versus stuff like drivers or underlying OS code that is never interacted with.
But guess what? It doesn't matter. Katz isn't critiquing the latest OS releases or pondering the best executable format.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Adultery is his business.
Purjury is ours.
If he hadn't groped Paula Jones in the first place, he'd have never been called to testify - which means he wouldn't have had to lie.
When your President is a lying, cheating loser, there are worse things than 'embarrassing' him. Personally, I think a guy like that is immune to embarrassment.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
You think DOS was the best around? Well, it was around, but I don't see where it was the best.
As for Windows (which is a seperate product, despite their current bundling status), it definately was never the best - or even adequete. Most Mac users, Amiga users, hell - any users - could have told you that. It got where it is due to the leverage that DOS had via IBM. Even then, it wasn't easy to not be laughed at: it was only accepted during the 3.X timeframe...
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
>Anyway, I'll be first in line, once I've seen
>through early adopters that it doesn't suck.
Quite a paradox you've backed yourself into there, it seems. Care to explain how you'd manage this?
:>
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
If 4-5 extra hits a month skews your stats, you have bigger problems to deal with (ie. promotion). :>
Still, 4-5 isn't so bad. It's nice to have something up to date at least.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Problem is, that movie was a joke. The book 'Hackers' was actually very good.
The movie was so full of flaws and mischaracterizations it's not even funny. I'll toss out one example: If you had watched the movie and didn't know any better, you'd have thought that Windows was a 'big player' by the time the Mac was released. In reality, it didn't get anywhere until Win3.X came out.
Hackers was written as an exploration of the hacker community at MIT, etc. PoSV was made to sell advertising slots.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
It's not a new book. If I remember correctly, Levy wrote this back in the 80's. Was it 83-84? Can't remember, but it's well over 10 years old.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net