I agree. I get into a rant all the time with Khoasx about this shit. The floppy is genius compared to a CD or DVD. The ultimate win for me was when I challenged him to insert a blank cd, mount/mnt/cdrom and then cp/home/moi/myfile.zip/mnt/cdrom. Can't do it? Can with a floppy! We need a bootable, writeable, viable medium that brings high capacity and ease of use. CD/DVD's are definitely NOT it.
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I'm not one to advocate the destruction of data. When my pimp (recruiter, as I am a contractor) has questioned the lull in the IT market I've said: Hope for a virus. When viruses hit, it's the veterans that make the difference. How long your company can recover will depend on how many seasoned IT people you have. You want someone who's been through it first hand and not to rely solely on your AV vendor. Though they can be a tremendouse help, if they are busy writing a pattern file what should you be doing in the meantime? I'd tell the brass, you want to know the value of IT? Think back at the outages or problems you've had and ask yourself: "Was the downtime limited or lengthy? Did we have experienced IT personel or "Johnny Come Lately's?" How did that effect our resolution time? My 2cents worth.
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I think that MS may see this as an opportunity to garner control along with RIAA via things like the DMCA. MS has practically embraced the idea of more control over content and media. Legislation like the DMCA simply reinforces their further control of "innovations" as they call them. If things like proprietary encryption and the like come down the pike, MS will be the medium. The fact that this will further alienate the Open Source community is a huge bonus for them.
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This type of rhetoric is born out of the principle that if it can theoretically happen, it eventually will. But the "proof" that it can happen is not conclusive, even if the principle were axiomatic. This guy must really be jaded by Y2K.
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Uh..has anyone seen a.NET app? I for one, think it's vaporware.
".NET App Hunter heh, suching for the aylusive.Net App! 'ays a wiley bugger! And ye' 'ave to be very careful when ye' approach 'im! 'Ee might jest disappear! POOF! Before ye' can even get a glimpse of 'im!"
I really have problems with this bill. If hacking results in death, perhaps I can understand. If it is part of a terrorist attack or other act of war, then that's fine. To make a blanket punishment for hacking in general is proposterous. We already see far too many punishments that are stiffer when regarding money than when regarding human life. So we'll have drunk drivers who kill someone getting 7 years and parole, and a script kiddie who causes a DOS against a website getting life in prison? Puhleeze.
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This guy has no idealogical or ethical reasons for choosing one way or the other. From a functionality standpoint, he has valid reasons and I can understand them. I choose to run Linux because I like the challenge it brings, and I cannot any longer support Microsoft ethically. I still support MS in my job (hey, I gotta eat) but for that which I personally pay and build it's Linux or some other OS. I find that for me to send money to MS is to further purpetuate the iron-handed tactics and illegal activity that has created the monopoly in the first place. So for me it's Linux for myriad of reasons but I cannot "switch back" because I can't bring myself to support them personally.
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Everyone seems to be saying "Apple can do whatever they want..." etc. Yes, they can, and so can IDG. But they can also be rightly criticized for it. This is not a case of whiners not getting something they want. It's a case of being given press passes because you were accepted, initially, as a legit member of the press by IDG, then having that pulled and being told that the host has called your legitimacy into question. Imagine that someone revoked your "sysadmin pass" or "dba" credentials that got you into sections of NetworldInterop or Comdex that you had access to before on the basis that CompanyX didn't think you were a legit admin. That is what happened here. And if a previous post was true, IDG acknowledged that other legitimate sites were targetted.
Above and beyond that, Apple is stifling the community that supports it. Can it do this in a free country, sure! Is anyone here wrong to criticise them for it, uh...no!
If sites are getting leaked information, then Apple has an internal problem. In the long wrong, however, very little harm is being done and arguably more good. Perhaps it's just a bruised ego on Job's part. Apple can little afford to stifle the people most responsible for what market share it has.
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Again...UL is simply Caldera expanding without having to buy out anyone. I don't have a problem with there being a price on Linux. I've purchased boxed sets of RH. My problem is per seat licensing and Caldera's cold shoulder to individual users.
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Exactly! What I hate is that Eminem get's away with it from the so-called bastions of liberal thinking, the media and entertainment industry. Hollywood wants the gay vote but applauds Eminem on stage regardless of the fact that he spews anti-gay rhetoric, then it's "free speech." Well, I agree it's free speech, but at least be consistent in your dissent! If a white banker had said that he'd be linched!
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Okay I may have to eat some crow here. He does say the following:
"I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing," he added. "I'm not writing this to voice my opinions. My concern is the way that the industry looks at the success of a musician or of a record that sells or doesn't sell. Popular artists traditionally sold a lot of records. In the future that might not be the case. In fact, even now that might not be the case. Pink outsells Weezer in the States not so much because she's more popular, but because her fans are more likely to buy, as opposed to burn, her CDs."
So his point isn't that "Hey, I'm losing money" so much as "I may not get as good a rating if burning cd's is cutting into my sales."
I still think he sucks. But he may have a point here.
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I disagree. I think he SHOULD shoot himself in the foot. Moby sucks. Obviously, like so many before him, he expects his next album to be selling better because of who he is. I don't doubt he put alot of effort in it etc. But let's face it...he's not a musician, unless I'm missing something. I think anything that hastens his demise is great news! Make way for someone with talent.
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Makes you wonder what kind of backend agreements are being made. Think about it...
IBM continues to push Linux on the servers but drops all attempts to push Linux on any desktops in an effort to show good faith on projects with which it has obligations to Microsoft on. Just a though.
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Excellent point. I think you're right on target with that. I see so many newbies migrating to Slackware because (I think) they think it's cool to be obscure. Or supposed "guru's" wearing it like a badge. Don't get me wrong, Slackware is a great distro and certainly more hardened than alot of out-of-the-box distro's, but it's not geared toward the average user and isn't intended to be. Furthermore, go into some of the linux help channels on IRC and help is not something you're likely to get much of the time. Newbies get chided for the distro they choose, others get chided for not reading the howto's. The fact is they came in for help and you hardly help the cause of Linux by telling them to fuck off; esp. when so many of the howto's are so outdated as to be irrelivent. The truth is, as you have pointed out, that many don't want the newbies to become proficient because then they lose something. It's as if they see knowledge as something finite (like Democrats see money). If I give you some, I must therefore lose some. When the truth is, there's always more to be had with some work and determination.
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You make some valid points, and I can agree to some of them. I didn't intend to piss anyone off with this per se' (despite the Troll label), and by no means was it a perfect analogy. I would differentiate the coke vendors from the bikers as the coke vendors are simply supplying good and services in a supportive if not parasitic kind of way. You are right that guidelines should have been laid out beforehand. Perhaps the GPL is imperfect in that respect. I would further agree that this was bound to happen (as some have suggested). Marketing reps and commercialization have sort of spoiled our collective IT playground. But it the process of this spoiling that has lended to our way of life; giving us the ability to gain employment in the very field that heretofore was our hobby. I don't think, however, that negates our justification or right, if you will, to criticize.
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Here's an analogy for you:
Linus, RMS, and the FSF purchase a field (think Woodstock). They decide to make this field freely available to the masses. It's a sort of park where you're free to come have parties, camp, throw festivals, improve it if you like. Entrance is free, though vendors are welcome to sell cokes, snacks, rent chairs etc. Soon groups from all over the world are coming to use the park. They each kind of congregate in their respective areas but mix and mingle to share ideas on occasion. Then along comes a biker group (sorry, I like bikers but I had to think of something somewhat daunting). They decide to carve out a chunk of the park and setup camp. Everyone is intrigued and at first the bikers mix and mingle and get good ideas and share good ideas. Everyone else is interested in the neat happenings in the biker area and some decide to go check it out. Ah! But the bikers have setup gate and are charging a cover for their festivities. Some pay the cover, but most decide it's not really worth it. Others protest that the spirit of the park has been broken. The bikers claim that the other users are just a bunch of freeloaders and they should expect that with all the money spent on beer, food, and the band that the users should expect to pay something. Sound familiar? What the bikers, we'll call them The Caldera Gang, don't understand is that THEY have freeloaded on the property to start with. They've taken advantage of this free concept and decided to carve out a proprietary niche there. Now they've created this consortium, in an effort to get the groups closest to them to band with them. This would make their section of the park larger without them having to really give up much. They send some of their people over to help these new members and vice versa. The bikers just assumed that the members of the consortium would all agree to this cover charge. Ah! But will they? Apparently not. Now it appears that at least one of the new member groups doesn't want a ticket booth on their section of the park.
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I've said it once and I'll say it again:
Basically, Caldera has gained more developers, more programmers, and more support personel; they've grown by default.
This is a huge win for Caldera. They've managed to spread their business model to 3 other companies without spending one red cent on a merge.
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Shaddup Dumbass! (I can say that cuz he sits next to me). Seriously, though, I think RMS has a bit of a point in this per-seat license. (But I find much of Stallman's speeches to be too utopiatic. But it's dreamers that give us goals, I suppose.) I think there are implications regarding the GPL for sure. I think SUSE being a part of this is very disheartening. Caldera screwed themselves with this approach and basically turned their back on end users. I cannot speak of Turbolinux or Connectiva as I've never used them. UL has a decidedly Caldera-centric look, from what the press releases have said. Unfortunately, with economic times as they are, many developers may find themselves needed to eat and therefore assisting in this approach. While I don't like RH's new pricing and their Gnome-centric approach (though my laptop currently uses Gnome), I think they may in the end be the better choice along with Mandrake. United Linux is a huge win for Caldera, but for the rest of us? Probably not. Does Caldera really care? Probably not. I'd like to think SUSE cares/cared. Basically, Caldera has gained more developers,more programmers, and more support personel; they've grown by default.
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I took alot of ragging from other UNIX folks when I was a SCO admin. You're right. It works...works well in fact. Buggy? For the most part, No. There are MANY POS and branch offices running SCO as we speak with no issues. I deployed about 400 SCO servers in '99. They were directly replacing SCO servers on obsolete HW as we all planned for Y2K. We ran Progress Db's on them and they were reliable as hell! Before that, I worked at HIWW (Holiday Inn WorldWide aka Bass Hotels) and the majority of our hotels ran SCO lans with dumb terms and THEY were reliable as hell! It's not for everyone and perhaps not as robust as AIX. But not everyone is running 'NIX on a cluster, or mainframe, or an IBM RS6000 with a terrabyte array. For Intel boxes, SCO was the bomb! Nuff said. It's a shame that Caldera isn't doing much with it
Furthermore, it's a shame that UnitedLinux is coming off so Caldera Centric. I used to adore Caldera. Yet, they needed SCO support badly, because frankly there's has a long way to go. They target corp customers and don't appear to want to support you very well unless you are a corp customer.
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I'm not implying that having the posters and things like that make me a professional. I'm simply saying they do not imply that I am not. (For the record, I don't have any posters in my cube currently) While I think this is a healthy dialogue about the need for many in "geek" culture to be more professional, we can't really make blanket statements because it makes assumptions about the person based on criteria that are subjective and arbitrary. I will give you a shot on the nerf guns and games. I think alof companies really went too far to attract a stereotype. I think I'd prefer something more like my wife's office. Once or twice a month they stay after work on a Friday and have beer, drink, occassionally snacks and just relax and mingle. They're a small company and perhaps can do this much easier, but in the long run it does provide some release without "nerf guns." It's cool. I think we all react and probably make assumptions about each other's posts that probably are not completely what the writer intended. I see your point,though, but hopefully you can glean something from my mangled statements.
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My problem with those who want all IT to be populated with their version of profs is that they are usually on the "them" side of the equation. You major in MIS in college, take your token exams, get outta school and come to my dept. and ask questions like "Why do you use CISCO routers when NT does routing?" (No lie..actually happened!) Just fess up: you want to be a yesman. Systems Admin for people like that is just a rung on a ladder.
So I think it's cool to have a poster from last year's Networld or Comdex on my cube. So I'm not sniffing my manager's ass waiting for an atta-boy. So what! I'm doing my job. You remember that shit you hired me to do? We all have to play politics to an extent. All we're saying here is don't jerk us around and you'll get more out of us. Those of you who chose this profession because you thought it'd be a nice lark and path to middle management can bitch about the rest of us. But when the shit hits the fan it's the geeky eccentric who you call up in the middle of the night and cry "Make it work! It's making those beeping noises again!"
I do this because frankly I don't want to think about any other professional existence. I'm being paid to do something I'd be doing anyway. I'd dare say the "treat me like a banker" types can't say that. They can always fall back on day-trading or Daddy's wallet. I want to be taken seriously as a professional too. I want the respect. But don't assume I'm not a professional because I like to wear my Red Hat cap to work. I've worked at several large, corporate HQ's and worked along side many VP's and Directors. They probably saw me as a geek. But I'm always helpful and they all knew they could depend on me. So I challenge the idea that geeks aren't dependable.
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I agree. I get into a rant all the time with Khoasx about this shit. The floppy is genius compared to a CD or DVD. The ultimate win for me was when I challenged him to insert a blank cd, mount /mnt/cdrom and then cp /home/moi/myfile.zip /mnt/cdrom. Can't do it? Can with a floppy! We need a bootable, writeable, viable medium that brings high capacity and ease of use. CD/DVD's are definitely NOT it.
>
I'm not one to advocate the destruction of data. When my pimp (recruiter, as I am a contractor) has questioned the lull in the IT market I've said: Hope for a virus. When viruses hit, it's the veterans that make the difference. How long your company can recover will depend on how many seasoned IT people you have. You want someone who's been through it first hand and not to rely solely on your AV vendor. Though they can be a tremendouse help, if they are busy writing a pattern file what should you be doing in the meantime? I'd tell the brass, you want to know the value of IT? Think back at the outages or problems you've had and ask yourself: "Was the downtime limited or lengthy? Did we have experienced IT personel or "Johnny Come Lately's?" How did that effect our resolution time? My 2cents worth. >
Dude! Don't hold back. You hold that shit in and it will eat at ya! >
I think that MS may see this as an opportunity to garner control along with RIAA via things like the DMCA. MS has practically embraced the idea of more control over content and media. Legislation like the DMCA simply reinforces their further control of "innovations" as they call them. If things like proprietary encryption and the like come down the pike, MS will be the medium. The fact that this will further alienate the Open Source community is a huge bonus for them. >
This type of rhetoric is born out of the principle that if it can theoretically happen, it eventually will. But the "proof" that it can happen is not conclusive, even if the principle were axiomatic. This guy must really be jaded by Y2K. >
Apache should be avoiding .NET like the plague! So many have put it so well, eventually, the scorpion is going to bite!
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I believe John Ketchersid was in negotiations to sell such technology to Seagate years ago. Don't think it ever went through though. >
Uh..has anyone seen a .NET app? I for one, think it's vaporware.
".NET App Hunter heh, suching for the aylusive .Net App! 'ays a wiley bugger! And ye' 'ave to be very careful when ye' approach 'im! 'Ee might jest disappear! POOF! Before ye' can even get a glimpse of 'im!"
I really have problems with this bill. If hacking results in death, perhaps I can understand. If it is part of a terrorist attack or other act of war, then that's fine. To make a blanket punishment for hacking in general is proposterous. We already see far too many punishments that are stiffer when regarding money than when regarding human life. So we'll have drunk drivers who kill someone getting 7 years and parole, and a script kiddie who causes a DOS against a website getting life in prison? Puhleeze. >
This guy has no idealogical or ethical reasons for choosing one way or the other. From a functionality standpoint, he has valid reasons and I can understand them. I choose to run Linux because I like the challenge it brings, and I cannot any longer support Microsoft ethically. I still support MS in my job (hey, I gotta eat) but for that which I personally pay and build it's Linux or some other OS. I find that for me to send money to MS is to further purpetuate the iron-handed tactics and illegal activity that has created the monopoly in the first place. So for me it's Linux for myriad of reasons but I cannot "switch back" because I can't bring myself to support them personally. >
Everyone seems to be saying "Apple can do whatever they want..." etc. Yes, they can, and so can IDG. But they can also be rightly criticized for it. This is not a case of whiners not getting something they want. It's a case of being given press passes because you were accepted, initially, as a legit member of the press by IDG, then having that pulled and being told that the host has called your legitimacy into question. Imagine that someone revoked your "sysadmin pass" or "dba" credentials that got you into sections of NetworldInterop or Comdex that you had access to before on the basis that CompanyX didn't think you were a legit admin. That is what happened here. And if a previous post was true, IDG acknowledged that other legitimate sites were targetted. Above and beyond that, Apple is stifling the community that supports it. Can it do this in a free country, sure! Is anyone here wrong to criticise them for it, uh...no! If sites are getting leaked information, then Apple has an internal problem. In the long wrong, however, very little harm is being done and arguably more good. Perhaps it's just a bruised ego on Job's part. Apple can little afford to stifle the people most responsible for what market share it has. >
Again...UL is simply Caldera expanding without having to buy out anyone. I don't have a problem with there being a price on Linux. I've purchased boxed sets of RH. My problem is per seat licensing and Caldera's cold shoulder to individual users. >
Exactly! What I hate is that Eminem get's away with it from the so-called bastions of liberal thinking, the media and entertainment industry. Hollywood wants the gay vote but applauds Eminem on stage regardless of the fact that he spews anti-gay rhetoric, then it's "free speech." Well, I agree it's free speech, but at least be consistent in your dissent! If a white banker had said that he'd be linched! >
Okay I may have to eat some crow here. He does say the following: "I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing," he added. "I'm not writing this to voice my opinions. My concern is the way that the industry looks at the success of a musician or of a record that sells or doesn't sell. Popular artists traditionally sold a lot of records. In the future that might not be the case. In fact, even now that might not be the case. Pink outsells Weezer in the States not so much because she's more popular, but because her fans are more likely to buy, as opposed to burn, her CDs." So his point isn't that "Hey, I'm losing money" so much as "I may not get as good a rating if burning cd's is cutting into my sales." I still think he sucks. But he may have a point here. >
I disagree. I think he SHOULD shoot himself in the foot. Moby sucks. Obviously, like so many before him, he expects his next album to be selling better because of who he is. I don't doubt he put alot of effort in it etc. But let's face it...he's not a musician, unless I'm missing something. I think anything that hastens his demise is great news! Make way for someone with talent. >
Makes you wonder what kind of backend agreements are being made. Think about it... IBM continues to push Linux on the servers but drops all attempts to push Linux on any desktops in an effort to show good faith on projects with which it has obligations to Microsoft on. Just a though. >
Uh...how about a standard transmitter with a N/C switch, magnetic contact attached, receiver attached to a zone on your home security system. Voila! >
Excellent point. I think you're right on target with that. I see so many newbies migrating to Slackware because (I think) they think it's cool to be obscure. Or supposed "guru's" wearing it like a badge. Don't get me wrong, Slackware is a great distro and certainly more hardened than alot of out-of-the-box distro's, but it's not geared toward the average user and isn't intended to be. Furthermore, go into some of the linux help channels on IRC and help is not something you're likely to get much of the time. Newbies get chided for the distro they choose, others get chided for not reading the howto's. The fact is they came in for help and you hardly help the cause of Linux by telling them to fuck off; esp. when so many of the howto's are so outdated as to be irrelivent. The truth is, as you have pointed out, that many don't want the newbies to become proficient because then they lose something. It's as if they see knowledge as something finite (like Democrats see money). If I give you some, I must therefore lose some. When the truth is, there's always more to be had with some work and determination. >
You make some valid points, and I can agree to some of them. I didn't intend to piss anyone off with this per se' (despite the Troll label), and by no means was it a perfect analogy. I would differentiate the coke vendors from the bikers as the coke vendors are simply supplying good and services in a supportive if not parasitic kind of way. You are right that guidelines should have been laid out beforehand. Perhaps the GPL is imperfect in that respect. I would further agree that this was bound to happen (as some have suggested). Marketing reps and commercialization have sort of spoiled our collective IT playground. But it the process of this spoiling that has lended to our way of life; giving us the ability to gain employment in the very field that heretofore was our hobby. I don't think, however, that negates our justification or right, if you will, to criticize. >
Here's an analogy for you: Linus, RMS, and the FSF purchase a field (think Woodstock). They decide to make this field freely available to the masses. It's a sort of park where you're free to come have parties, camp, throw festivals, improve it if you like. Entrance is free, though vendors are welcome to sell cokes, snacks, rent chairs etc. Soon groups from all over the world are coming to use the park. They each kind of congregate in their respective areas but mix and mingle to share ideas on occasion. Then along comes a biker group (sorry, I like bikers but I had to think of something somewhat daunting). They decide to carve out a chunk of the park and setup camp. Everyone is intrigued and at first the bikers mix and mingle and get good ideas and share good ideas. Everyone else is interested in the neat happenings in the biker area and some decide to go check it out. Ah! But the bikers have setup gate and are charging a cover for their festivities. Some pay the cover, but most decide it's not really worth it. Others protest that the spirit of the park has been broken. The bikers claim that the other users are just a bunch of freeloaders and they should expect that with all the money spent on beer, food, and the band that the users should expect to pay something. Sound familiar? What the bikers, we'll call them The Caldera Gang, don't understand is that THEY have freeloaded on the property to start with. They've taken advantage of this free concept and decided to carve out a proprietary niche there. Now they've created this consortium, in an effort to get the groups closest to them to band with them. This would make their section of the park larger without them having to really give up much. They send some of their people over to help these new members and vice versa. The bikers just assumed that the members of the consortium would all agree to this cover charge. Ah! But will they? Apparently not. Now it appears that at least one of the new member groups doesn't want a ticket booth on their section of the park. >
I've said it once and I'll say it again: Basically, Caldera has gained more developers, more programmers, and more support personel; they've grown by default. This is a huge win for Caldera. They've managed to spread their business model to 3 other companies without spending one red cent on a merge. >
Shaddup Dumbass! (I can say that cuz he sits next to me). Seriously, though, I think RMS has a bit of a point in this per-seat license. (But I find much of Stallman's speeches to be too utopiatic. But it's dreamers that give us goals, I suppose.) I think there are implications regarding the GPL for sure. I think SUSE being a part of this is very disheartening. Caldera screwed themselves with this approach and basically turned their back on end users. I cannot speak of Turbolinux or Connectiva as I've never used them. UL has a decidedly Caldera-centric look, from what the press releases have said. Unfortunately, with economic times as they are, many developers may find themselves needed to eat and therefore assisting in this approach. While I don't like RH's new pricing and their Gnome-centric approach (though my laptop currently uses Gnome), I think they may in the end be the better choice along with Mandrake. United Linux is a huge win for Caldera, but for the rest of us? Probably not. Does Caldera really care? Probably not. I'd like to think SUSE cares/cared. Basically, Caldera has gained more developers,more programmers, and more support personel; they've grown by default. >
I took alot of ragging from other UNIX folks when I was a SCO admin. You're right. It works...works well in fact. Buggy? For the most part, No. There are MANY POS and branch offices running SCO as we speak with no issues. I deployed about 400 SCO servers in '99. They were directly replacing SCO servers on obsolete HW as we all planned for Y2K. We ran Progress Db's on them and they were reliable as hell! Before that, I worked at HIWW (Holiday Inn WorldWide aka Bass Hotels) and the majority of our hotels ran SCO lans with dumb terms and THEY were reliable as hell! It's not for everyone and perhaps not as robust as AIX. But not everyone is running 'NIX on a cluster, or mainframe, or an IBM RS6000 with a terrabyte array. For Intel boxes, SCO was the bomb! Nuff said. It's a shame that Caldera isn't doing much with it Furthermore, it's a shame that UnitedLinux is coming off so Caldera Centric. I used to adore Caldera. Yet, they needed SCO support badly, because frankly there's has a long way to go. They target corp customers and don't appear to want to support you very well unless you are a corp customer. >
I'm not implying that having the posters and things like that make me a professional. I'm simply saying they do not imply that I am not. (For the record, I don't have any posters in my cube currently) While I think this is a healthy dialogue about the need for many in "geek" culture to be more professional, we can't really make blanket statements because it makes assumptions about the person based on criteria that are subjective and arbitrary. I will give you a shot on the nerf guns and games. I think alof companies really went too far to attract a stereotype. I think I'd prefer something more like my wife's office. Once or twice a month they stay after work on a Friday and have beer, drink, occassionally snacks and just relax and mingle. They're a small company and perhaps can do this much easier, but in the long run it does provide some release without "nerf guns." It's cool. I think we all react and probably make assumptions about each other's posts that probably are not completely what the writer intended. I see your point,though, but hopefully you can glean something from my mangled statements. >
My problem with those who want all IT to be populated with their version of profs is that they are usually on the "them" side of the equation. You major in MIS in college, take your token exams, get outta school and come to my dept. and ask questions like "Why do you use CISCO routers when NT does routing?" (No lie..actually happened!) Just fess up: you want to be a yesman. Systems Admin for people like that is just a rung on a ladder. So I think it's cool to have a poster from last year's Networld or Comdex on my cube. So I'm not sniffing my manager's ass waiting for an atta-boy. So what! I'm doing my job. You remember that shit you hired me to do? We all have to play politics to an extent. All we're saying here is don't jerk us around and you'll get more out of us. Those of you who chose this profession because you thought it'd be a nice lark and path to middle management can bitch about the rest of us. But when the shit hits the fan it's the geeky eccentric who you call up in the middle of the night and cry "Make it work! It's making those beeping noises again!" I do this because frankly I don't want to think about any other professional existence. I'm being paid to do something I'd be doing anyway. I'd dare say the "treat me like a banker" types can't say that. They can always fall back on day-trading or Daddy's wallet. I want to be taken seriously as a professional too. I want the respect. But don't assume I'm not a professional because I like to wear my Red Hat cap to work. I've worked at several large, corporate HQ's and worked along side many VP's and Directors. They probably saw me as a geek. But I'm always helpful and they all knew they could depend on me. So I challenge the idea that geeks aren't dependable. >