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IBM Dropping Laptop Linux Support
Bjarne Bula writes "In a message to the linux-thinkpad mailing list, Keith Frechette, former (as of Monday, June 24th) lead developer of Linux support on ThinkPads,
reported that IBM has decided to no longer fund that project." I've been using
Linux on a ThinkPad for some time now. If it stops being compatible, my next
laptop won't be a ThinkPad. Too bad, because the machines are solid. Update: In an interesting counter-point, Information Week tells us that IBM will be opening a manhattan based "Linux Center of Competence" to show off Linux. Go figure.
Shhhhh ... it's not dying ... it's just sleeping ...
IBM are a bunch of graffiti spraying vandals anyway.
"Linux is our flagship technology going forward! Quick, let's cancel it on our sexiest products!"
What a great way to torpedo enthusiasm in the techie community... :-p
Time for someone to set up a petition page...
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
I just about creamed myself first time i saw a SSH terminal open up on one of those oh too sweet looking iBooks... Kinda sad about the thinkpads tho, IBM has been doing it so right for so long, it's a shame to see them discontinue support. Makes me wonder if they're going to do something else with linux on those laptops, given their recent billion dollar commitment to linux..
An older article here has the developers of their open source devision saying...
o p
People don't buy many small computers just because they will run Linux (the geek population just isn't that large). People do, however, blow large chunks of cash on big machines just to run Linux. Mom-and-Pop can almost always undercut IBM on prices for small machines, and geeks are thrifty. You don't have to sell many million dollar machines to justify being involved in Linux development.
IBM Kernel Hackers:
All of the people in our group and most in the LTC have Thinkpads for their daily development and run Linux on them (I'm writing this on one as I sit in my apartment). There may not be as much corporate support there as you want, but there is plenty of grass-roots support. We had to learn all the quirks to get Linux installed and get all of the little things working (just like you). I've always wished that we shared more of this information, but there are usually people who are farther ahead than we are. I've uploaded the meager information that we put together during a meeting once. If you're curious, take a look: http://www.sr71.net/slashdot/thinkpad/linux-deskt
Why dont they just start working on Linux for Laptops?
In college, really poor, need a flatscreen.
even if they stop funding the project, i'm pretty sure that linux and *BSD will still be _mostly_ compatable, so fuck it.
ThinkPads (T-series in particular) are the best notebooks on the market, period. This is disturbing that they have discontinued LINUX support, especially in light on their adoption of LINUX on workstations/servers. Doesn't make a lot of sense, really.
Sapere Aude - Homer
...when one of our largest backers pulls linux support from their quality laptops... Keith! Chalk my ThinkPad before you go! :(
-- -=innocent ramblings from the mind of an insomniatic programmer=-
Time for someone to set up a petition page...
Yeah, because we know petitions are SO effective. Heck, has there ever been a petition that HASN'T been successful? I don't think so -- HELL! I THINK THE SUCCESS RATE IS ACTUALY 100 freakin' PERCENT!
Oh wait, the success rate is zero percent. Sorry.
From one of the answer, concerning Linux support of Thnkpads:
There may not be as much corporate support there as you want
I think it's a bit of an understatement. I don't know what the unedited part said, but what went through is dead on.
Since petition pages are so very effective.
Does anyone have a clue why they did it? After all (and as the poster hints at), linux support does in fact *help* selling ThinkPads.
my
IBM also said it was going to include Generic Unix support rather than Linux only (scroll down). This means, they are embracing the entire spectrum of free Unix OS's instead of just Linux (Which IS A BONUS). They would be supporting OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Darwin, OpenCLT, WindRiver RT, OpenDOS, Linux (no distro specific). Frankly, it was weird seeing IBM saying they only support RedHat Linux (Linux is Linux whatever distro runs it, and at hardware level this shouldn't have mattered, AFAIK most IBM use was at hardware level). This IS A GOOD THING.
It seems to me that IBM is looking at Linux as an operating system that belongs on server grade hardware and beyond, not on desktops or laptops. There probably are not enough people using Linux on their laptops to justify the time spent supporting it.
They used to have Thinkpads that ran AIX. Some of the SysAdmins I know at IBM used to prefer them for on-site troubleshooting at the server farms since it was UNIX end-to-end (to the extent that AIX is UNIX anyways). But someone decided that it was not worth having the product line and they were scrapped.
Too bad, but this sounds like more of the same...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
...they don't stop giving out hardware documentation, I can't see any real problem here - most other company's don't found Linux development either and people still buy their hardware...
Dropping support for Linux on their laptops is very strange decision for IBM to make IMO, considering their overall interest in and sponsoring of the development of Linux.
I wonder how this goes together...
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
I love my Thinkpad, as it has the best keyboard of any laptop that I tried. I use the built in keyboard enough that I've worn the texturing off half the letters.
There are many support pages and "rings" around the web for thinkpads,and I hope that at least the IBM design teams think about non-MS Operating systems when producing future thinkpads, unlike the TP600 modem debacle.
It'll be a tough one to replace when the time comes.
Strange that I posted this story earlyer.
Anyway the inquirer had a little more info and opinion.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
"If it stops being compatible, my next laptop won't be a ThinkPad. Too bad, because the machines are solid. "
I dunno if that's the attitude I'd have. The reason you buy a Laptop from IBM is their manufacturing compatibility and support. (support meaning they'll replace a defective component...)
If there's an icompatibility with Linux and one of these Laptops, then people should rush to fix it. The reason I'm saying this is that corps who buy these laptops aren't going to be worried about Linux until they really really need it. It'd be a lot easier for everybody if the information on how to make Linux work on an incompatible laptop were easy to find for the non-Linux initiated.
I'd have been a Linux user 6 months ago if I could have gotten it to work on my laptop. Unfortunately, I couldn't find what I needed to fix it, so it got Windows 2000 instead. It'll be a while before I have the free time to pursue that again.
I'm thinking of the Linux community as a whole, here. I can understand somebody saying "This laptop won't do me any good if it doesn't wrong what I need", hell I'd have the same attitude. I'm just thinking that if everybody says that, then this will always be a Microsoft world.
"Derp de derp."
Right here on Slashdot!
Who would have thought?
Good business sense, at that.
As displeasing as it might be to the faithfull, it dosent make much sense bottom-line to invest a lot of money in this area. It dosent nessesarily mean that Thinkpads will become horrors of proprietory that will become useless for Linux, it just means spending less money supporting a free OS that honestly manages to support itself well enough anyway. (The Linux work isnt adding value to IBM laptops for the average punter, to the point where they will decide on a Thinkpad over an Inspiron.)
Then there is the fact that IBM may cash-cow their x86 laptop business anyway in preparation to sell it off, rather like their hard disk business.
Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random numbers is, of course, in a state of sin.-John von Neumann
>>as part of IBM's recent Server Group "resource action."
Does that mean IBM is trimming all non-essintial non-server based roles? I have wondered for a long time why IBM is still in the PC business. It seems like they don't sell very many end user machines. While it is common is some circles to have Thinkpad laptops, I have not seen one myself in a couple years.
I have never though it was really a business IBM wanted to be in. I wonder if this means maybe they agree.
-Pete
Soccer Goal Plans
IBM designs their laptops and either makes them or has someone else make them to their design. So somebody probably got the bright idea to just buy random Taiwan made laptops and slap an IBM logo on them - they think that this will reduce costs and increase competitiveness with new designs intoduced monthly.
The only have to look at thir Aptiva line of desktops to see where this stratigy will go - their good name will carry a few customers for a while, but in the end, nobody will pay a premium IBM price for a non-IBM product with an IBM sticker slaped on the front.
Well to be fair, it look lie IBM did design the plastic bezel for the Aptivas.
What does this have to do with Linux? We'll getting Linux to run of crappy hardware with Win-Modems and no name audio chips is a pain in the butt - if IBM was to suppot Linux, assuming they are going where I think they are going, they would have to pay a lot of money to get it done right.
Eithr that or the Microsoft OEM contract is up for review.....
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
The Linux community right now doesn't really need a whole lot of support. If IBM would use hardware that already has decent and proven drivers in their laptops then there isn't too much to complain about, you can install Linux and be happy.
Now of course if they make you buy it in the beginning with Windoze then we have some reason to complain.
The Anti-Blog
Take that you Open Source Nazi's! Another win for the Closed Source community!
It makes me warm inside know you guys won't get support from IBM to run your Penguin shit OS on IBM Laptop hardware.
Shut up, Ballmer.
It's not the ssh terminal opening up on OSX that does it. Heck, you could probably ssh from DOS.
/usr/bin :-)
It's ssh'ing TO the iBook and doing an
ls
that brings a smile to my face!!!
Just buy a different brand of laptop, it's not hard to do. If you are going to use Linux, check out a quick google search first to see people's impressions of the compatibility. This is a good idea anyway since people often sprinkle general comments into these and give you an idea of the quality of the product.
Finally, unless you are going for a Dell please go to a computer store and browse. Laptops are very personal machines and pointing device preference and the feel of the keyboard beneath your fingers as well as general layout of special buttons and the brightness and clarity of the screens are something you need to get a feel for first-hand.
If you get a Dell or other mail-order product it also gives you a point of reference so you know what to look for. For example if you try a box out at a store and realize you can't live without at least 15" screen or something.
I have Dell Inspiron 4000 and have been very happy with the quality of the product. SuSE 7.3 installed with no issues and Sax2 did a better job than Dell in figuring out my video settings.
Castle Wolfenstein looks damn good.
maybe IBM is focusing on the server side, not the desktop side of Linux, the % of people using linux on laptops must be very very small.
When I first read this, I was horrified. IBM has been one of Linux's strongest supporters, and it shocked and saddened me that they would drop our community like yesterday's long johns.
But then I reconsidered. It occurred to me that a lot of the public excitement about Linux is based on its "outsider" image. We're not "suits," we're "hackers." We have fun. That image is what sold Linux in the first place.
It struck me that Linux's recent partnering with IBM, HP, and other Big Corporations may be interpretted as selling out by others (and the media). Maybe these deals are responsible for the recent decline in Linux's market share growth.
I know this seems discouraging, but maybe it's for the best. Linux gets back some of its lost credibility, and the community benefits. Maybe we should tell HP where to shove it as well?
In the end, we'll just have to wait and see. But I'm optimistic.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Okay so IBM doesn't have enough money to fund creating drivers for Linux for Thinkpads. Fair enough since resources are finite. However isn't one of the best features of Open Source projects is to get people who are interested in contributing to the project?
Why does IBM need to hard dedicate manpower to Thinkpad driver writing? IBM can just provide open hardware specs(assuming they don't violate some NDA from inside or 3rd parties), a little TLC and feedback from a maintained ML, and let people who are modivated to get stuff working do their thing. Heck even IBM can maintain the CVS repositories if they want.
The point is that although it would be handy to have IBM leading driver development for Thinkpads or whatever hardware, it isn't exactly necessary. IBM can just as easily, and for a lot less bucks, forster a community that will help support them and themselves.
Most of the stuff that was "special" about laptops has been standardized, including power management (APM and ACPI) internal peripherals (mini-pci).
The biggest thing now is to keep in mind which video and audio chipsets are going to be compatible, which is easier to do in the design stage than the support stage later on.
I love my T series thinkpad, and as long as future designs take those chipset issues into consideration, then I'll stick with the thinkpad for a long, long time.
Worried that someone going by the handle CMDRTaco won't be using their laptops anymore. It's called 'small-fry' Taco. I'll bet you could count the number of people using Linux on 2 hands (compared to MACOSX and Windows) and the number of people using Linux on a laptop on one hand. Nevermind on a Thinkpad. (Exageration for effect.)
I guess linux on the laptop is no longer part of the triangle offense?
I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
Honestly!? Who (in the nix community) actually needed support from Big Blue? Maybe there was the occasional question/comment/complaint, but nothing that couldn't be resolved in a short time scouring the web.
Domains for only $8.75/year! Transfer your domain for on
It seems that plenty of companies are good at providing press-release level support for linux but not too good where the rubber meets the road. Ever try looking up linux-compatible boxes at Compaq, Dell, HP or IBM? Its almost like they are ashamed of their offerings. Whatever is there is pretty well hidden or just vapro.
... as long as they provide all the necessary information to Open Source developers. Ah yes, and they should also stop using components made by companies who don't provide information.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
In this day and age of cost-cutting it really isn't a suprise. Only geeks (like those found here) are going to use *nix on a laptop anyway and most of us can handle our own installs and tweaking.
The only place I can see this biting IBM in the @ss is in the case of Europe where we have France giving a major contract out to Mandrake and the stories about Linux PCs selling in Scandinavia. Even though Walmart is going to start selling Linux loaded PCs soon. Despite the Walmart decision, I don't think we'll have the same enthusiasm (as we're seeing in Europe) in the US for a while.
Hope I'm wrong... Either way, unless these kinds of efforts continue to grow, IBM probably made a good BUSINESS decision, even though I (we?) may not like it.
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
I thought that the newer versions of Linux had awesome hardware support "better than Windows XP" I've heard. Why, then, is it so hard to get Linux running on a ThinkPad which, as I understand, has fairly standard hardware? I thought the days of spending days trying to get Linux running on common hardware were over! (this is not intended as a troll, I'm genuininely interested. Is it because Linux hardware detection isn't quite there yet, or is it because IBM is using weird hardware, or is it something else altogether?)
I have an IBM A30 running linux, and use it every day.
IBM has never provided any of the support/info/drivers that make this thing work.
Who cares really, you are forced to buy it with M$ from them anyway.
For Info I went to LinuxCare.
For Software I went to Redhat.
The reason I went IBM is it supports a gig O ram..
Those machines are very nice, definately my favorite laptops. I have a couple of older thinkpads in my collection. (not that old) I never actually knew that the thinkpads were supported by IBM for linux. I wish I had known. Nevertheless, I haven't yet had the opportunity to install linux on one, although I am planning to do that this month. It will be a 600x which I have just purchased a new HD for. I'm glad to know that it *might* go smoothly.
does anyone know which distro IBM was supporting. The article didn't mention it.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
It may well be a situation where IBM would like to provide support, and is able to provide the manpower to making the drivers necessary to make the notebook line Linux compatible. However, one must realize that there is a difference between writing a set of drivers for a product, and actually being accountable for them. My bet is that IBM would rather use its resources in more efficient tasks than supporting such a small user base.
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
I think to some people since IBM was one of the first mega-corporations to embrace Linux, this announcement about cutting support for Linux on the laptops comes as a suprise. However, where is it that IBM has made all of its Linux progress? They've made their progress in the enterprise on big ass IBM servers running Linux. However, the desktop/laptop space is very different from enterprise servers. The margins appear to be much thinner on those machines and so I'm sure that business unit is trying to cut costs. I doubt they have seen enough traction from Linux on the desktop to justify the cost of support and development. I also think that IBM knows that there will be some unofficial ThinkPad Linux support that is provided by its users.
Yes, and very heavy too ;)
i've been using redhat on my thinkpads for a while now. from redhat 5.2 to 7.3 and i haven't needed a lick of support from them anyway. redhat and the rest of the community have done their own damn good job of making it better and easy. if only ibm would stop putting these wack ass video and audio chipsets in them, it would be too painful.
There pretty much seems to be 2 camps when it comes to IBM and their ThinkPad laptops. Those of us who love them, and (for me) are a bit bigoted. And those who really don't care for them at all.
I'm an ex-IBMer, and when I really got to handle them, even the ones that were broken, I was hooked on them. Now all that has nothing to do with runing Linux on the platform, but as I looked around for something compairable...I couldn't find anything, save maybe a Toshiba.
I won't use anything that has a cheapo trackpad in it. I'll use the pointing stick, or a track ball, the trackpads just suck for me. I wish Apple had the trackpoint as an option, opposed to the trackpad. They'd be an interesting alternative to the ThinkPad.
Well, I suppose the bottom like is that when it comes to laptops, you get what you pay for. And at IBM, you pay a good chunk of change for them!
It'll be sad to see IBM turn it's back on a solid customer base, even if it's not a -HUGE- one. But, you also have to keep in mind, that if IBM is asked to do a $100k project, they turn it down. It's too small.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
but I couldn't find a link to it on their site. Even used their search engine. So where can you buy a laptop that is linux-certified. I just want a laptop that I only have to spend like an hour to get running 100% as opposed to like 20.
People need to read this before they send severed cow head's to IBM.
I don't have a Thinkpad, but I use GNU/Linux and can't get a girlfriend, no matter what I do. From what I can tell, not too many of you have girlfriends either; I must make it clear right now that I do not want advice from you. I am seeking the advice of those who have consentual, regular, heterosexual intercourse with a well adjusted woman.
.... a fucking GNU/Linux hippy". He sounded so defeated. She wanted to go to the beach, but my skin is not adjusted to the sun and my skin peels while at the beach. This was not a turn on for her and when she came back to my mum's basement that night we were going to have sex but the raw skin was too much for her.
You may be wondering why I placed so many restrictions on the type of sexual intercourse. Being a GNU/Linux user, I can get all the men I want, but my ass hurts from years of anal sex. I am tired of pillow-biting. I have met women at Linux User Groups (LUGs) but they didnt want sex the way I wanted it - they brought their strap on and rode my chute like the men did. The date would end with her taking me to a gay bar and selling my ass to a drunk and bearded kernel hacker.
I am convinced, therefore, that I need to meet women that do not use GNU/Linux.
I have tried dating regular women, but find it hard to make conversation. I was surprised that regular women do not give a shit about Free Software or the Microsoft monopoly which leaves me with nothing to discuss. Some women tried to talk about the weather, but I don't keep up with the weather from my mums' basement.
I have had some success, I dated one girl several times. She picked me up from home, mum liked her. I am sure dad would have too, but he left us soon after I installed Slackware on the family computer. I can still hear him crying and see him moping around the house, saying "I knew he was different; I could handle a gay son, but this
Going out at night for a meal can be difficult too; all restaurants refuse to serve smelly GNU/Linux hippies. The only place we can go for food is the McDonald's drive through, but she doesnt like waiting in her car in the heat of the day when I tend to smell the most. She doesn't like the stares she gets from the drive through staff.
I could go on, but I won't. I now seek your advice.
I *JUST* bought an old thinkpad 760dx (used of course). Now how am I supposed to get the soundcard working?
I got a Thinkpad 600E off eBay earlier this year and put Debian Potato on it. It has been rock solid. I suspend and unsuspend multiple times daily and pretty much never reboot except to play some games in Winderz once every few weeks. And I am one of the fabled "desktop users" whose existence everyone on this site questions, who only runs programs written by other people and couldn't write anything useful in C to save his life.
If IBM's "dropping Linux" means you won't be able to get this kind of performance on future machines, then I will cry. But if it only means you can't buy a Thinkpad pre-loaded with Red Hat, I ask, what Linux user would want someone else to choose a distro for him (or her) and install it instead of being able to configure his/her own OS from the ground up? In short, does IBM's announcement really matter in any sense but the symbolic?
I'd be happy if IBM officially supported linux on laptops, but I've bought laptops before from other vendors that weren't officially supported linux and have had little trouble. It just takes some up front research to figure out what's going to work and what won't.
;)
Now, IBM may be cutting official support, but it's reasonable to believe that IBM will continue to support community efforts. That is, they'll probably be helpful in making the information about their laptops available to the kernel hackers out there so that they can be made compatible. This way, IBM spends very little, and you can still get an IBM laptop running Linux, it just means there won't be some guy at IBM you can call and ask questions.
No big deal, I never used to do that even when I ran Windows
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Linux saves the consumer and the company BIG money. Linux, with the correct software, is easy to administer. IBM dropping Linux support on their laptops could mean other things:
IBM knows alot of hardware support in Linux is legally questionable and maybe expects typical crazy and single John Doe in his appartment to waste his own free time to support IBM's hardware.
IBM is like a bunch of other companies by having a short-term finance study on all its products. Most companies don't look at the LONG-TERM benefits, down the line of a said product being mature. The Linux kernel itself is MATURE, but it's upto the user-mode software to bring the soccer players onto the field.
AND STOP SHOUTING! DO YOU THINK WE'RE ALL DEAF!!!????
I am the nightmare of nightmares.
It's Better Manually (IBM) -c'mon, think about it....-
You make it sound as if it's no big deal that a Linux kernel developer is out of a job. How many motivated people do you think are out there?
The problem is that Linux development cannot survive on the efforts of unpaid programmers. If programmers aren't paid for their work, then they'll switch to other careers. Or they'll learn a few things on their own, but they won't have professional experience to help them really understand things. Then what? Will Linux be developed only by people who know how to program, but don't have jobs as programmers? How long do you think that will last? Can you imagine a Linux kernel being developed only by nurses, sales people, bus drivers, and students with rich parents? It's crazy.
Linux needs programmers who are being paid to be programmers, even if their job doesn't involve Linux. This idea that a hardware company just needs to release specs and some self-motivated individual will always do the work for free is ludicrous.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
For the rich guys and for the poor guys. As a bonus, you don't have to hang your in shame saying you run a "Unix-like" operating system. With these, you get the real thing...
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
They are freakin' rock solid.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
Hmm.... now that's a possibility I didn't consider, and you may be right. I sure hope not. I *hope* IBM is smart enough to realize their laptops command a premium price and are highly regarded BECAUSE they engineer them to superior quality standards. They innovate, when everyone else is imitating. (Remember the "butterfly keyboard" that folded out when you opened the lid of a Thinkpad? Remember the built-in keyboard light on a few models? And love it or hate it, didn't they bring a whole new mouse technology to the laptop world with the eraser-point? Aren't they doing new things now with secure encryption chips integrated into their laptops?)
If they opt to use cheap generic laptop parts, they eliminate the only real reason to keep buying Thinkpads in the first place.
Same thing with OS/2, big talk, no action. When OS/2 was IBM's flagship product, they were selling their PCs with essentially only Windows preinstalled. Maybe if you were lucky and asked real nice, they might install OS/2 depending on which model you were buying, and of course, for an extra fee -- if you were lucky. Mostly it was no dice.
I don't think it's such a big deal that IBM is dropping their laptop Linux support, so long as IBM doesn't do anything that would prevent Linux from running reliably on their laptops, i.e., hiding hardware details that are critical to stable operation. I've been running Slackware with stock kernels on a T20 (with a "Designed for Windows 98/2000" sticker on it) for about 8 months now with no problems whatsoever. Zero crashes. Even if IBM drops this support, i think users would still be able to get Linux to run on their IBM laptops because that is their OS of choice.
Still, it would be nicer to have some kind of "official" support from IBM to give additional incentive to those considering Linux on laptops. More incentive == more users.
IBM also said it was going to include Generic Unix support rather than Linux only (scroll down).
/. story made no reference whatsoever to this. The first is just a link to the thinkpad mailing lists, while the second is an email sent to the lists by the IBM lead developer who was laid off.
... I suspect as the migration away from Microsoft picks up steam one or more of IBM's competitors will step up to the plate. In the meantime its back to getting everything working ourselves, something we Free Software users have always been pretty good at.
Do you have a reference to back this up? Both articles on the
I see absolutely no indication, anywhere, that IBM plans on continuing any sort of non-Windoze support of their T-series thinkpads, which is a shame as my company alone bought 4 of them specifically to run GNU/Linux (we are, after all, a GNU/Linux shop). Aside from individual sales they will loose with this rather short-sighted and foolish policy, they are likely to loose a number of corporate customers who are migrating away from Windows because of BSA-Licensing nonsense and don't want Microsoft licenses or software anywhere on their premesis. And if you were to foolishly think we are unique in that desire, you would be sorely mistaken.
IBM was uniquely positioned to take advantage of the ever-growing number of companies moving away from Microsoft because of their ever-more-draconian licensing terms, fees, and enforcement, as the ability to run the target operating system (likely GNU/Linux) on their laptops is an important part of such a migration.
This is a profoundly unstrategic move for IBM to make, and I suspect has a great deal more to do with bulk OEM licensing of Microsoft's monopoly operating system for installation on their hardware than it does with their desire (or lack thereof) to support GNU/Linux. Especially with the DOJ making it clear that they have no intention of enforcing anti-trust law against Microsoft in any meaningful way, IBM may well have felt they had no choice if they were to avoid paying twice what everyone else is for the privelege of reselling Microsoft's shoddy products.
Oh well, there are plenty of other laptop manufactuerers out there
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
..Red Hat, IIRC.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
So I take it you never found www.linux-laptop.net? It's pretty easy to miss. After all, it's only mentioned in all the laptop-related HOWTOs and at the top of many search results for "linux laptop help".
Should IBM Thinkpads prove unreliable with linux then I'll simply stop buying them. Toshiba's generally work well. I believe the site with a list of tested laptops is
http://linux-laptops.org
Give them a try if thinkpads start to suck. I know I will be looking for alternatives after this.
I use dell. Dell doesn't support Linux on laptops either. Linux runs on Dell anyway. IBM won't support Linux on laptops. So what. How is that any different from any of the other vendors. If you will only use a laptop from a company that offers support for linux - you will have slim pickings.
To be blunt, why should IBM lay out the serious cash required to support linux on laptops when the only people who give a damn run linux on their laptops anyway and never use the support? It's basic economimcs. IBM probably sells a couple thousand thinkpads with Linux a year. Those sales probably cost them 20x as much to support as they make. If the product loses money, axe it.
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
> Makes me wonder if they're going to do something else with linux on those laptops, given their recent billion dollar commitment to linux..
That $1B wasn't guaranteed to be spread all over the Linux map; IBM's concentrating on servers, I'd expect all their efforts to go there and few, if any, on desktops - at least until desktops start being seen as a profitable business again.
Just because they dropped funding doesn't mean that it won't run at all on such a machine. I doubt that all of the current ports and such have been directly funded. Stopping funding doesn't mean that your next thinkpad won't run it, mearly that IBM won't pay cash to make sure it happens. I'm sure someone will write drivers.
Tired of legitimate data sources? Try UNCYCLOPEDIA
But what other line of portables can measure up to the ThinkPad? I've been using those for the last several years, and kept buying them, although with Windows NT & 2k, always looking forward to the day I could make the switch to Linux.
Recommendations for Linux portables?
Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
When I think of the main issues I had running linux on my IBM T20, I think of:
Xfree86 Savage 3 Driver
Crystal Audio Sound Driver
eepro 100 NIC Driver
Did IBM have anything to do with the development of these drivers? I doubt it.
IBM did squat for me, getting linux running on my laptop. Look to sites like http://www.linux-laptop.net/ibm.html for some actual help.
I love what IBM is doing for Linux as a whole, but saying they're dropping support, is like Bin Laden saying hes dropping all peace efforts.
Now, my requirements for a laptop are: three mouse buttons, no Windows keys, black, fast, good display, trackpoint. I don't think anything else than an IBM ThinkPad qualifies.
If you need Linux support and they are dropping it. I'm sure they are doing it based on what they feel the make from what they pay to support it.
I really hate newish x86 notebooks with their buggy, baddly performing i8xx chipsets.
I have moved to a Mac iBook after 12 years of x86 PC's and I am very happy to have done so.
Mac OSX is awesome, OpenBSD works well and although I have'nt tried them on ppc yet, Debian, Mandrake, Yellowdog, etc are options too.
Though after almost 5 years with Debian and OpenBSD on x86, I am happy to stay with OpenBSD servers and OSX desktops.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
They are pushing Linux on the Mainframe
IBM aims Linux at financial companies
While we're at it, let's drop support of Linux on the laptop.
I have been a contractor at IBM for two years.
I have a ThinkPad A21m (750MHz PIII, 256MB RAM/20GB HD), dual booting Win2K and RedHat 7.3. It runs Linux beautifully, even autoconfiguring my Intersil Prism II 802.11b networking.
However, when I wanted to _buy_ a UNIX/Linux laptop for my own uses and with my own money, of course I went with the Apple Powerbook G4 Ti. I use both, but for portability, consumer and multimedia use, and sheer sex appeal, the TiBook is king of the hill.
I have the TiBook running yellowDog 2.2 and OSX 10.1.5. iMovie is the greates free app I have ever seen. And as a former NEXTSTEP SA, having Mail.app and the OpenStep develpment tools, plus fink, makes the Apple solution a hundred times better than the 8lb IBM brick.
I will return my ThinkPad next week as my time at IBM ends. I will not miss it. But my TiBook will satisfy all my work and play needs (excepting GTA3 on my Athlon) for years to come.
IBM lost antitrust suit against Microsoft re: OS/2.
IBM bailed on OS/2 -- Advantage Microsoft.
IBM chose Linux instead of a BSD. Apple ties-in with a BSD.
IBM bailed on Linux -- Advantage Microsoft and Apple.
The only way I'm buying another piece of IBM hardware is if it'll run Darwin.
Anonymous Coward? No. Mike Nomad? Yes.
I'm really happy with my Fujitsu Lifebook S Series. I'm using Gentoo Linux on it now but I'm not quite done getting it configured.
I heard that Fujitsu is one of the larger laptop sellers in Europe and Asia but I couldn't find any around where I live in the USA. It's odd that Fujitsu isn't bigger in the USA. It's a good laptop, I've run it hard for over a year now with no problems at all. I'd recommend one.
This is very true, and, IMO, rather pathetic. For a company so willing to spout and trumpet the open source software they are "embracing" and spending "1 billion dollars" on, it seems fairly counterintuituve to drop linux support on any level, expecially a level where they are still forcing people into that damn M$ tax. I refused to buy an IBM laptop because of this about 2 months ago. It makes no sense for a HUGE company like IBM that purports to "embrace linux" and has a rather bitter history with M$ to be so resiliant to employ OSS on anything other than their high-end servers. Sorry, I'd rather buy a laptop with forced (Argh) winXP from Dell then support rampant hypocrisy and buy a laptop from IBM with (again) forced winXP.
They are big enough to tell M$ to "fuck off" and go ahead and sell whatever the hell they want with their machines. Why don't they?
----------rhad
Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
I still don't understand why everyone here bitches and moans whenever a hardware vendor drops Linux from their lineup on certain items. Linux is not and will not (atleast anytime soon) be the choice of the road wariors who buy laptops by the truck loads. Its really quite easy to see that certain operating systems are better for some tasks than others, Linux is not ready for desktop market.
Step back and look at it before writing this off as a troll. You're a geek, you're one of the few. Most people who buy laptops buy them because they're on the move, running between business meetings and such. They've not got the time to deal with learning Linux or other OSS OSes.
Stick to what you do best, keep those servers churning while letting the desktop slip; its not your strong market.
scott
Mac OSX is pretty sweet, especially if you're down with BSD. IBM dropping Linux support isn't really that big of a surprise. While the IBM labtops are pretty solid (I have an A22m), they don't have a lot of the pretty little extras that makes labtops nice. Most people would be better off with a dell or some such. As fas as I'm concerned, the labtops are for playing games in the living, and moving movies from the Pc in your room to the Tv in the living room.
--What, you ain't know about them country fried sessions?
Face it -- IBM can be summed up as a company of brilliant engineers that couldn't market water in a desert. They've never demonstrated any history of being able to recognize what could be of greatest benefit to the user community (and in turn endear IBM to that community). How about a running list?
Way back there was Microchannel that knocked them out of the competition for continued leading manufacturer of PC's.
Then OS/2 (arguably one of the best single-user OS'es with a pioneering UI) -- court your prime developers and them hang them out to dry, THEN try to fight Windows...
Agreed, they make a great notebook. No, they don't have to "support" Linux (as in hand-holding) but if they overtly try to alienate end users who'd legitimately like a better OS, the screw them. Linux works great on my Dell C810 and CDockII. Adapt or Die IBM.
-it doesn't matter except for bad press for them. they will screw the pooch iof they try to sell linux to some corp on a mainframe or midrange but the customer asks them why they don't use it on the thinkpads. the customer is gonna think somethings wrong and go to HP or Sun then for that kinda money
-I have a nice solid oldie but goodie ibm desktop I just love, along with my extensive mac collection. The ibm runs linux, which is a struggle for me but I'm learning. Yep, it ain't as easy as mac, but it's easier than windows and a lot cheaper! I also am looking at a used thinkpad locally, and even if IBM "drops" support, I don't see that effecting people who want to run linux or some bsd whatever instead of windows. We'll still do it. IBM's loss is still a gain for people who want them, as in "who cares"? If they stop making as many thinkpads or they don't hit the used market as much, there's plenty more clonetops and macs still out there.
heheheh I do remember scrapping out a warehouse of IBM 360's for the gold in the cards a long time ago...
I have been using an IBM T20 laptop at work for 6 months and it is by far the best out of all of the laptops we have. Better than the New Dells, better than the Tecra8100. Everything from the keyboard/mouse(?) layout to the sturdiness of the display. I would even bet money that the IBM T20 could be dropped more times than any of the others we have here without breaking (Maybe when I get laid off the theory can be tested ;)
After upgrading to RedHat 7.2 on the Laptop
(from Win2k) My productivity has increased (from the fact that multiple desktop views allow multiple simultainious VMs, rdesktop sessions, and vnc windows, Staroffice, Licq, Mozilla, and wireless LAN). I would recommend RedHat 7.2 on a T20 to anyone looking for a solid Linux laptop solution. It is very sad that IBM has choosen to drop all of this.. But have no fear, the community will make it work, and work it will.:)
:)(smile)
I have a T21: man has it got problems...
battery died (really, holds like 20 min of juice)
video card craps out *every* time i do a driver update
USB keyboard does not have a) BIOS support, b) even with drivers properly installed, holding a key down does not auto-repeat - which sucks for backspace
Ultra bay jams (now and then)
pointing nipple drifts if i breath on it.
and more
NONE of the above IBM was willing to fix: every time i call with a problem, they say -- sorry pal, nothing i can do for ya.
otherwise a nice machine -- but since this is at least 20% more than a similar machine from, say, dell, i would have expected more out of it.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
I can not disagree with this statement enough. I watch the market and this won't happen. I've owned 4 thinkpads, know them inside and out, watched as IBM has improved them. You can now get more bang / buck from a Thinkpad than from any other laptop on the market, and great support. They keep winning awards for a reason.
Keeping in mind that IBM's laptop and desktop lines have nothing to do with one another, do you have anything to base your claim on? Personal experience w/ Thinkpads? Anything?
Saying that IBM will slap it's logo on random Taiwan junk just is not justified. It's like saying that BMW would slap it's logo on a Chevy.
I have trouble seeing how this comment got moded up so high.
And incedentally, Redhat runs great on Thinkpads. There are some wonderful utils out there to give you full control of every aspect of the hardware. IBM even has some very helpful sites.
It's easy to employ 2 programmers and claim you offer Linux support for your product. It's harder to publically say that you don't dedicate enough resources to it to be able to claim you support it.
=brian
I've really got to start proofreading my posts. Rereading it made it sound like I was convinced the original post is wrong, which is not necessarilly the case.
I'm looking for a solid reference to indicate IBM is in fact taking a more agnostic, distribution (and specific *nix OS) independent approach, rather tha simply dumping support altogether.
IFF the post was correct, this is indeed Good News(tm). If, however, it isn't correct them there should be some concern, and the speculation I posted above may have some real relevance.
Here is hoping all of my speculation is wrong.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
They sorta did the same thing to their Via Voice software for Linux. You can't get the SDK for it anywhere now which means several programs that run using the VV SDK no longer can be run. They still sell VV though, and I was one of the poor saps that bought one. I didn't realize that only the notepad like interface they give for it was the only thing I would ever get to use with it.
Marketing is everything in this game, I didn't know they sold laptops with Linux on them...and if I ever did get a laptop I would obviously want one with linux on it since Linux is all I use these days. I also didn't know there was a Via Voice for Linux either until I looked it up.
IBM is funny, they preach support for linux in general then spend billions of dollars in TV ads for Linux servers and not a dime on their laptops or ViaVoice...and then discontinue those things when they figure there is no more demand for them.
I think the real problem here is large companies (or for that mannor any company) like IBM are not willing to wait things out to let Linux get filtered through the system enough so there is a high demand for the Linux products they have on the desktop/laptop. Loki is a good example of this, only in the reverse sence. We all know Linux will be on the desktop, and is. We all know that Linux will someday be the majority...the only problem is it is just taking way to damn long to get there. There have even been people that claim the "Linux days" are over because it didn't do what they wanted it to in the aloted time they gave it. None of them seam to understand that it will take a lot of work to unseat MS from the throne...not just a few years...maybe at least a decade from today....thats 20 years.
I went to the IBM website and was looking around for a Thinkpad I could buy that was preloaded w/Linux and could find no information. I also called the support and sales lines and they could tell me nothing, so I put in a request here at work to have a Thinkpad T23 preloaded with Redhat.
Well, I guess the preloaded option is not happening. My current T20 was Linux supported, and it runs really well. Hope I can get the wireless running on the new one.
Atleast one of the kernel developers at IBM just mention how they all use laptops..... thats strange, you think that would want to support themselves.
Great Linux Site
Perhaps we should be just as ambivalent to the decision as were the execs who made it.
I use linux because it is interesting and free, not because it happens to run very well on my refurbished Thinkpad X20, and certainly not because IBM supports it or not.
I love think pads as much as the other guy, and mine ( an old 765D ) was working *before* IBM offically 'supported' them.
.we NEED the mussle behind them for the 'cause'...
Drivers will be written, TP's will continue to work..
Just perhaps a bit behind the curve ( i had to wait 2 years for a free driver for my video.. but commercial X was an option from day one )
That said, i do think it sad they wont offically support us.. Does this mean they are moving out of the linux market slowly? Lets hope not.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
There is a decently large contigent in IBM (from what I understand) that wants IBM to get out of the laptop market. Why? because its basically a commodity, and IBM doesn't like being in the commodity business. This is why they got out of the HD business. The problem is, what is IBM if there is no IBM PC?...... So they haven't, but in the end profits are all that matter, one doesn't make large profits on commodities, so one day we might see IBM out of the pc business (a semi sad day it will be)
My iBook is as good as ordered... I usually don't like single vendors for software/hardware combo's... but this really is a sweet box...:)
Snooze and you lose your sushi.
> I *JUST* bought an old thinkpad 760dx (used of
... depending on what model Thinkpad you actually have, you might be able to get the sound working).
> course). Now how am I supposed to get the
> soundcard working?
If you mean the 760XD (XGA screen, built-in modem, P166MMX processor, max 104M ram), you've got one of the Thinkpads with a proprietary (mwave) sound / modem setup.
What that means is that you can't get the modem to work (IBM only provided drivers for *newer* mwave modems than yours). You *might* be able to get the sound recognized by Linux as a soundblaster if you load the DOS drivers (in DOS) then use linload to load Linux. I never actually got this to work, but I heard some people did.
Essentially, the modem and sound hardware on a 760XD is useless under Linux. Oops.
(I've heard that some of the less fancy 760s have fairly normal ESS souns cards which *are* compatible with Linux
-- Rick
I didn't like the older thinkpads (think Pentium days) mainly because of the fact that you had to have either the CD-ROM or floppy disc drive, never both. Another thing that bugged me was the "burly" keyboard. Sure it was solid, but it sucked to type on.
Have either of these issues changed much with the newer thinkpads?
From all the installations of Linux I've experirienced, with a little bit of configuration it will run on anything. Does any have an experiences of recent Linux distros not working? (I mean REALLY not working, not testimonials from people who don't RTFM)
You've got to be a troll! You can't grab the ThinkPad from an IBM employee, even if you're armed and dangerous! :-)
Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
QLITech has some very nice laptops that can be preinstalled with a boatload of distros. If you're thinking of getting a laptop you should look at these as well as the "regular suspects".
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
Why all the whining about Thinkpads. Toshiba's have always made the best laptops for UNIX, and were probably the first to host Linux. And WE never needed official support from Toshiba!
This idea that a hardware company just needs to release specs and some self-motivated individual will always do the work for free is ludicrous.
That ludicrous idea is the sole basis for what popularity Linux has.
You can run sshd (ssh server) on Win2k also (http://tech.erdelynet.com/cygwin-sshd.asp). The real question is can you do anything useful with an ssh connection win Win2k or OSX.
The world has figured out a long time ago that Linux is a very capable server OS, but a non-starter on the mainstream desktop. Trust me, if IBM saw enough demand to keep offering Linux on T-pads, they would. They didn't, so they nuked it, the market has spoken. Case closed.
cool!
Dude, his name is Win-Developer. When's the last time Ballmer wrote a line of code?
IN TEH FUCHAR, LITERSY WLIL EB OPSHANAL!!!!!111
It seems like most companies don't support Linux because of the 'driver problem.' Really it just boils down to laptop manufacturers not wanting to give out specifications or open the drivers up so non Windows drivers can be made.
Luckily, it seems that apple has a pretty good track record when it comes to laptop drivers and specs. Unfortunatly, their products cost a bit more.
wont fund that project? perhaps they have a needless redunancy in their projects. i would think thats the case versus what seems to be a characterization of 'dropping support for linux'.
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
Why is this marked insightful? ls /usr/bin? My you people are easy to please.
Want an open-source friendly latptop OS with guaranteed hardware compatibility? Those Powerbooks ain't cheap, but they do kick ass....
IBM is the #4 PC maker in the world according to IDC's estimates in this article. The ThinkPad is considered the "Corp Standard" for laptop computers. They still make a line a "business" desktops...none of them are worth a crap for gaming since they have only business quality sound and video cards. Analysts have been asking the same question you asked for years and IBM continues to make and sell PCs so they can offer a "soup to nuts" IT solution for their customers.
/. took a poll of all their readers, I suspect they'd find the majority of them use windows as their desktop OS. Also, I think you'd have to agree the majority of laptop users aren't techs, they're execs or marketing or sales professional who just need their laptops to read/write email and the occasional document or simple spreadsheet. Windows and MS Office handles these tasks rather well. For Linux to become a serious consideration for IBM and other laptop makers, the linux laptop user niche will have to grow some.
Just so I won't get modded OT...there's no doubt IBM stop funding LINUX support for Thinkpad because it was a smart business decision. If
Ruger
I knew this sh!t from the start. IBM is so bitter about how M$ came up on IBM that they have to rely on linux for revenge. IBM will use 1Billion dollars on Linux, with all the money they used to paint the streets a developer(s) could have being paid to work on linux. Don't get happy when a company says they will use linux, its all for attention. If IBM believes in linux as a great solution why don't they switch linux entirely? Isn't linux better than AIX? Linux kicks ass in the server environment but for security I use OpenBSD. Now for the Desktop Aqua bitchslaps gnome and kde together. Thats the truth and if M$ is 3v0l so is IBM, Apple and RedHat.
I have a Fujitsu C-series (specifically the C-6631): this is their larger all-in-one model with a DVD/CDRW, ethernet, modem, firewire, etc. Everything worked perfectly in SuSE right after installation except for the AMR modem. Hardware 3D (ATI Rage) worked but was buggy; without the hardware 3d, X worked perfectly. The machine was also quite inexpensive.
Hmm. I've tried following this link 3 times (from 3 different posts to this story). Each time it has crashed Mozilla 1.0 ... which has otherwise been rock solid.
Either their web page is b0rked, they are running a b0rked java or javascript applet, servlet, or what have you, or they've managed to uncover a bug in Mozilla that slipped through the release process. Well, I guess a 4th possiblity is that it is a malicious site, and the link is a troll, akin to the goatse.cx link of yore, but that seems unlikely.
Has anyone had any luck viewing the Iquirer site with a non-microsoft browser, and would they perhaps be willing to post the text here for those of us who do not, or cannot, run internet exploder?
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Who cares? Linux has never been officially supported on my laptop, a Powerbook G3. But Mandrake 8 still runs better on it than the OS with which the laptop came.
If you need an officially supported Linux laptop, there are places to get one.
We're offtopic, so I'll go AC.
You can run sshd (ssh server) on Win2k also (http://tech.erdelynet.com/cygwin-sshd.asp). The real question is can you do anything useful with an ssh connection win Win2k or OSX.
On either platform (certainly on OSX, Win, I'm pretty sure of), you can fire up a VNC server and then control it remotely.
As for what else you can do on an OSX machine when ssh'd to it... Pretty much anything you can do on any unix box. As for windows... More or less the same, with more or less pain (generally more, I think).
-kw
He's just trying to show his newby technical prowess by demonstrating he knows a) that unixes have /usr/bin in their filesystem and b) that ls lists the contents of a directory. Had he been a little more advanced, he would've shown some more advanced commands. It seems to me he's just an idiot mac user who now thinks he has a good reason to justify his cultish addiction to macs.
It's better than beating the keyboard with my cock and hoping for something good to happen.
As a member of the elite nerd services I like to take the time and say "Kainx loves raster"
IBM is looking to increase profits. They let go a majority of the workforce..Of course they are going to stop linux laptops
Did you actually *read* my coment?
;)
I said nothing about the bulid quality of Thinkpads.
If I did, I would say that they are excelent - THATS WHY I OWN SEVERAL.
They are preceved, rightly or wrongly, by the market as being expensive.
As for IBM slapping a sticker on someone elses product - they have done it already with the Aptiva.
I also did not say the *will*, I said they could, and this would explain the dropping of Linux support.
It seems that we both agree that, *if* they did this, it would be a mistake - I'd stop buying Thinkpads if they did, and I imagine a lot of other people would as well.
PS. The BMW 5 and 3 series automatic transmissions are designed and built by GM. So yes, BMW does stick it's sticker on a Chevy
more info - look at the application notes.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
that brings a smile to my face!!!
Except when it's empty.
So screw IBM. Linux runs nicely on an iBook. They're cheaper than Thinkpads, and damn near indestructable. Or pony up some more bux for a Powerbook.
You could, of course, simply defect to OS X--but I assume you want to stay with a standard Linux distro. Mandrake, Yellow Dog, and Gentoo all run on PPC. I'm sure there are others.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
Well, uh, maybe that project would have been profitable if they'd have let people know about it. I didn't even know that IBM offered laptop support for Linux!
Somebody needs to beat IBM's marketing group over the head... unless, of course, someone wanted that program to fail?
Don't you think it's time to start communicating?
I'm sympathetic towards IBM's decision. For IBM to continue funding development for a small niche has low ROI. They'll get more goodwill from continuing to contribute and supporting bigger projects. Besides, for the most part, thanks in part to IBM's jumpstart funding, the major support obstacles with the ThinkPad have been solved. Let grassroots developers tweak it to perfection, get the glory, etc.
There are encryption systems for windows which are rather straightforward to install and use. For Linux, that is whole different case. It might be because of U.S. export limitations, I'm not sure, but there just is no easy to install and use encryption available for Linux.
I have been happy user of international linux kernel patches and encrypted loopback mounts. It is just rather difficult to set up, and I wouldn't recommend it to beginners, as it might scare them off. PPDD project seems to be developing interestingly again, though.
>They are big enough to tell M$ to "fuck off" and
>go ahead and sell whatever the hell they want
>with their machines. Why don't they?
Maybe they ARE selling whatever they want, and it just happens to NOT BE LINUX.
Once again, another person assumes that a company is selling Windows because they are somehow FORCED to sell Windows, rather than because it's what the customers are asking for.
-l
The problem is that Linux development cannot survive on the efforts of unpaid programmers.
How long have YOU been using Linux? I experimented with Slackware in the days before RedHat was even incorporated. Back then, things were different. Nobody, and I mean nobody, was paid to work on this stuff. The very idea was laughable. This was a toy project, of interest only to "students of rich parents" like I was at that time. Nobody expected it to ever amount to anything, not even the people who used it. Heck, even I gave up on it for a while after Windows 95 was released, and I'm the biggest geek I know. I'm not proud to admit this now, but at that time I fully expected Linux to fade away, never to be heard from again.
But it didn't.
Linux not only survived during that period when even a geek like me could give up on it, it actually thrived. When I heard about Redhat, I decided to give Linux a second chance, and I was astounded to see what progress had been made in my absence. I have been running Linux ever since.
A lot of things have changed since those days, like IBM spending one billion dollars on Linux. That is like pouring lighter fluid on an already-lit barbecue: sure the whoosh of flames is gratifying, but the coals would still stay hot if you stopped doing it. Linux is not going to disappear because a kernel developer got laid off, or if a few linux-based companies go out of business. Linux has long ago proven that it can survive with only the help of a few motivated people working in their spare time, whether or not it will ever need to again.
This comment contains so much crap, it is astounding.
:-), and produced by IBM and contract manufacturers. HP and Compaq did this also for their retail lines. (As opposed to the business boxen, which are a completely different animal.)
IBM designs their laptops and either makes them or has someone else make them to their design. So somebody probably got the bright idea to just buy random Taiwan made laptops and slap an IBM logo on them - they think that this will reduce costs and increase competitiveness with new designs intoduced monthly.
IIRC The i-Series ThinkPads were designed by IBM and produced by Acer. (I am a RTP IBM'er and had to use an engineering sample of the i-Series for a little while, so I know they are developed in-house.)
All other ThinkPads are designed by IBM, and built by IBM. So you had that part right.
How on earth to do you take the fact that IBM has dropped funding for Linux support, and end up with the conclusion that IBM is OEM'ing (relabling) laptops? (Something that IBM has never done.) My mind is boggled.
The only have to look at thir Aptiva line of desktops to see where this stratigy will go - their good name will carry a few customers for a while, but in the end, nobody will pay a premium IBM price for a non-IBM product with an IBM sticker slaped on the front.
The Aptivas were designed by IBM (and if I find the designer somewhere in IBM that has the flat-head screw fetish (anyone that has ever had to service Aptivas and PC 300s will know what I mean), I will bring on the LART
IBM pulled out of retail because it is simply impossible to make any significant amount of money selling computers in stores. The sales were structured in such a way that the manufacturer, not the store, has to take the depreciation hits for the decreases in price. Over the past several years, the best that any company has done in retail is about break even. (HP) IBM and Compaq lost money the moment E-machines entered the market. It is impossible to make money when a comptitor (E-machines) has no qualms about losing money.
IBM has NEVER OEM'd PC's of any kind.
SirWired
Makes you wonder what kind of backend agreements are being made. Think about it... IBM continues to push Linux on the servers but drops all attempts to push Linux on any desktops in an effort to show good faith on projects with which it has obligations to Microsoft on. Just a though. >
I used Linux/PPC for years on my PowerBook (LinuxPPC and then YDL) - it's flying, it's smoking, it's nice and I love it. I don't care what IBM doing. While Apple doing good PPC notebooks and there is some good distro of Linux PPC - I am fine. I can do my home work, my remote system administration of my office systems, vice versa I can remotely access my book from the office if I keep it running. It runs Java, Open Office, Mozilla, Mac-on-Linux and al traditional Linux/GNU staff. What should I need more?
... in the words "Server Group".
IBM started its current round of layoffs (incl 160 people from IBM research reported today) in May with the Server Group.
Apparently, from the posting, the Linux Laptop poeple were in the Server Group. Makes sense, since that's where the rest of the Linux people are, right?
But when a cut comes along, they just look at laptops not being their line (servers), and cut them, without thinking of the overall strategy.
Methinks someone one level up needs to catch this and find those people a new home?
IBM budget R and T series laptops used to come with Savage video chipsets. Support for some of these chipsets, in particular DRI, was flaky at best. This was a common complaint on the mailing list. I recently noticed that ALL of the curernt thinkpads as of late come with ATI chipsets. From Radeon 7500 on the T series, to Radeon mobilty on the X series."Officially" not supporting linux on the thinkpads might not be that bad of a thing as long as they keep making the harware compatible.
It's been stated before, but IBM dropping their "support" for Linux on ThinkPads shouldn't affect many people. Anyone who chooses to run Linux on a laptop (or a desktop for that matter -- anything but a server) instead of that Other Operating System probably knows what they're getting into and doesn't require much support from the manufacturer -- better support is available from the community anyhow (that's how I got X to work on my TP).
.01% of the total sales, there's not much justification for it, from the bottom line.
It's a cost decision -- having support engineers, testers, etc. make sure that a particular distro runs on each model can tie up a lot of resources. And if Linux represents only
That said, however, IBM has made a big commitment to Linux in other areas -- I used to work for an IBM business partner, and we ran RH Linux on a bunch of Netfinities, running DB2, Lotus Notes, and WebSphere. It would be a shame to see them back away from that.
(Incidently, my ancient TP 760XL -- a 166MHz PII -- still has RH 6.1 on it, and DB2 UDB 6.1! It's a dual-boot box, in that I have a Windows 95 HD and a RHL HD that I swap depending on what I need to do, even though I rarely use it these days)
-mharris
Umm, wow. Connect to an OS X box to use a UNIX-like OS? Gee, I seem to be able to connect to many different types of UNIX/UNIX-like boxes. I can remember typing 'ls
"Oh my gosh! Since Apple is charging for it, it has to be good!"
To paraphrase Monte Python: One laptop! You were lucky! Here in the UK the number was even smaller.
If you want pure, unadulterated frustration, put in linux and laptop in the search field on www.ibm.com/uk.
Erik
I didn't want it, but still got it. Yet again, another person assuming everyone wants windows...
---rhad
Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
Its bad to here IBM dropping their prescence in this area. Small steps are needed to make Linux successful on the average users desktop environment and this is one in the wrong direction.
Now if only IBM will announce their support of Dot Net and the CLR and they'll have their fingers in everyones pie.
I've been running Debian GNU/Linux on my Dell Inspiron for about four years. AFAIK, Dell doesn't (or at least didn't) have special support for Debian. Furthermore, I run NetBSD/alpha on Compaq machines and NetBSD/sparc on Sun machines without special support for them.
>Once again, another person assumes that a company is selling Windows because they are somehow FORCED to sell Windows, rather than because it's what the customers are asking for.
I have it on good authority that one of the longest, biggest lawsuits this decade (and the last) proves that you're wrong.
Would you like to guess what the title of it is?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
It can't be empty. The ssh* tools are installed in /usr/bin. :)
But OSX is a lot less fun without the Developer CD.
We don't really need IBM to expressly support Linux, we just need them to refrain from using components like winmodems, sound, video, and bus drivers that don't have open specs (and consequently have no linux serviceability).
To me, better than "supported Linux" would be a laptop that actually has all of its components in a workable state.
If I found out that Thinkpads have winmodems or other components for which drivers do not exist on any system other than windows, I will go with the theory that IBM is giving up in frustration at the support nightmare that ensues when Linux is installed on such a beast.
I would really like to see a compatability list of all the notebooks on the market. Do any of them have complete hardware compatability with linux?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Subject line: good/bad news for linux.
Comment: Insert BS about how this is "good/bad" for Linux. If article is not about Linux, somehow BS Linux into the post. It does not matter what you say because the mods will mod up and will not question any BS post that mentions Linux.
This would really have made a perfect April Fools story. As somone who has been using Linux on Thinkpad laptops since 1996, and has purchased around a dozen of them, I'd like to say: *WHAT* *LINUX* *SUPPORT*?
The last ThinkPad I had was a nice, shiny new T21 which I paid a fairly hefty price for -- being the 850MHz with 1400x1050 flagship model. I finally dumped it on ebay about 3 months later because the video support just totally sucked, and I was only getting around 4 to 5 hours battery life with both batteries.
This was kind of hard to take as a friend had spent far less on a Dell with 1400x1050 display that got 6 hours on both batteries.
I ended up replacing the T21 with an X20, which has mostly been working fine. But that was almost a year ago now and I'm thinking of upgrading again. I just went through the list of IBM products and none of them seem really enticing... Not as enticing as the Dell line-up. My only beef with the Dells is that they have only two mouse-buttons.
I know that IBM released Linux on some of their laptops, but it wasn't offered on the "flagship" T21, nor the X20 I got. I've had half a dozen laptops that have *NEVER* run Windows while I've owned them (I boot right away into a KRUD install).
Heck, I can't even find code to control the "thinkpad" button on my laptop. Kind of embarrasing while all the other folks at our local hackingsociety.org meeting are getting the extra buttons on their Omnibooks working.
I would think it would be bad for business for them to push Linux on their mainframes, but not support it on machines that so many of the mainframe technicians are going to use to connect to it out in the field.
Sean
Read my previous post carefully: "Linux needs programmers who are being paid to be programmers, even if their job doesn't involve Linux." In other words, Linux needs a world where there are plenty of paid, professional programmers. It doesn't matter what software they're developing, or what platform it's form, just as long as they are being paid to be programmers. Because without a healthy software industry, there will eventually not be enough people interested in becoming programmers. These people will choose other careers, and therefore not have any interest in programming anything. And then where is Linux supposed to get its programmers from?
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
No IBM sales person has ever been able to satify the following challage: Linux running on a pServer off of SSA drives being backed up by Tivoli Storage Manager.
IBM sales staff will declair that SSA drives are preferable to SCSI in a pServer. But they won't produce the driver or specs for Linux.
IBM sales staff will declair that Tivoli Storage Manager is the preferable way to backup both workstations and servers. But they won't produce a client for Linux PPC.
So, they can demostrate Linux runing on the entire eServer product line including the pServer. So what?! I still don't get SSA performance or TSM backups. Why not demostrate that Linux runs fine on an i386? When it comes to the bottom line, it would be just as meaningful to me.
Oh. And before trying to sell me on adding an "L" to an AIX version makes it more "Linux-like," please at least add a /dev/random and /dev/urandom.
Btw, I'm sorry to hear about Keith Frechette. I guess "peace, love, linux" is no longer with the Think-pad. However, one might continue question how much it is with the rest of IBM's product lines.
just because big companies kiss penguin ass doesn't mean they're going to put their tongue up in it.
or something.
Actually, sshd (which is what is needed to connect to the machine) is in /usr/sbin
Maybe IBM has decided to exit the laptop market, like they are doing in the hard drive market. My guess is that the first thing they would cut is development for future products.
Mark
If I was the purchasing VP at A Big Corporation, I'd look at this and say, so now they are nolonger supporting this on their entire line. How soon are they dropping off at the big irons? Let's go elsewhere.
Well, that's why you're not a purchasing VP. Most people understand that laptops are not servers.
IBM laptops are some of the ugliest out there, so are their server cases!
IBM needs to take a lesson from Dell or Sony on making their stuff without sharp edges and corners that hurt when you bump into them.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
If they sell me a Thinkpad with no OS installed and with a suitable price reduction there's no problem.
Less work for them, better deal for me, doesn't matter how few they sell. No need for support for an OS the user has installed. Maintains goodwill with the techies who will be interested in buying them ( and maybe ordering the Linux servers in the future ). Everyone is happy.
As it stands, it's a marketing blunder.
You still need to generate keys. /usr/bin/ssh-keygen
Winmodems and built-in modems are useless anyway. You don't want to plug a built-in modem into a random phone line because it may fry it. And Winmodems are just not reliable.
There are plenty of tiny PCMCIA and USB modems that work really well. And when they get fried (which they will sooner or later), you just get a new one.
That's ellipses... dumbass...
ibm is backing Linux and they havent been able
to sell laptops with linux. we just need to stop
for a moment and think.
what distro do they put on their laptops.
whatever it is the people dont want to buy it.
thats not the worst news in the world
i believe they are close to suse. if they
cant sell a laptop with suse on it or whatever
they have on it we shouldnt become upset.
that is how business works.
too bad they didnt give mandrake a chance to
be showcased on their laptops. i dont believe
they would want to do this.
i find it fascinating how american companies can
make such big mistakes and absolutely refuse
to correct them. if they are part owner of
suse they cant put Mandrake on their laptops.
its ok. we will survive it
and my next hard drive won't be an IBM GXP or IBM anything...
http://www.tech-report.com/news_reply.x/3494
"IBM delivers total Linux solutions to Wall Street"
I quote:
"Industry leading integration software that streamlines business processes, making it easier and less expensive to share information across a variety of applications throughout a corporation and its remote locations."
But not including, apparently, a corporation's laptop-using staff.
Is IBM still as dumb a dinosaur as the day Mrs. Gates' son outwitted it ?
So much for IBM being the notebooks of choice for linux users... Here's a good opportuinity for another notebook manufacturer to step up to the plate.
As one who typically builds his own machines, I don't really care about vendor support, so long as I know what hardware I am getting is supported by the kernel. For the most part, the IBM laptops I have seen work just fine without any special software from IBM.
In addition to this, I buy IBM laptops because they are the most reliable, best constructed laptops you can buy IMHO. Want an example of shoddy laptop construction? Take a look at a new Dell laptop. Personally, as long as IBM doesn't start using some really funky hardware, (which I find unlikely) it doesn't really bother me at all if their machines don't come with it pre-installed. I didn't care much for Caldera's e-desktop 2.4 anyhow when I bought this machine. It was actually the first thing to come off and Slackware installed like a dream.
Russian Russian Russian RussianDollSig DollSig DollSig DollSig
Much more interesting to me at the moment is Apple's current desktop grab. I decided several months ago that if I were in the market for a laptop, I'd go for a Powerbook running OSX. Actually I find the Powermac to be a pretty tempting desktop platform too. It's going to be an interesting choice when the next upgrade cycle rolls around.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It is a good thing that we had all those hardware manufacturers supporting Linux with tech specs and drivers from day one... or where would Linux be now? (sarcasm)
As soon as you start to rely on a resource, you fall down when it gets pulled out from under you. Is that not the strength of Linux, that you rely on a pool of people, not companies? And when companies contribute, you get a short free ride (some alot longer)!
Unix? Laptop? PowerBook.
Stories like this bring out the neverending "Linux will never make it on the desktop" (which used to be the "Linux will never make it") debate.
In my home, which has five computers running more or less all the time, 80% of the desktops run Linux (for those of you new to elementary arithmetic, that means there is one Windows box). I am, however, a dedicated techie. My laptop runs Linux, and I much prefer it to running Windows.
Linux will "make it" on the desktop, but it depends on what you mean by "making it." I suspect Linux is running on hundreds of thousands of desktops, but the owners/operators of those desktops put it there themselves.
For the kind of people who want Linux on their desktops, this is just not that hard to do. For the people for whom this would be difficult, Linux is probably not something they want in the first place.
Most of the major OEMs have "per unit" licensing arrangements with the Redmond Behemoth. So, without a decent proce break for a Linux-only machine (in fact, in many cases no proce break at all), there isn't a lot of incentive to hunt down the machine preloaded with Linux. So you buy whatever is handy that has the features you want and you add to your collection of Windows 98/Me/NT/2000/xp restore CDs.
That means that in the narrow margin PC hardware business you have to set up production of Linux PCs (which has certain fixed costs) and then sell maybe 50 such machines a year. That doesn't make money.
I am a total Free Software guy, but that doesn't mean I want to lose money. Nor does IBM.
Do not underestimate the power of inertia. It will be hard to make people move to Linux from Windows without either substantial price savings or some sort of "killer app." Linux is great, but is not, itself, a killer app.
I don't read too much into this announcement.
Of course, just because they won't be actively supporting it doesn't mean you can't DO it, but...
Won't a lot of admins of IBM big iron running Linux be wanting their notebooks to be running it as well, not just out of personal preference, but AS PART OF THEIR JOB?
Well, I'm running Mandrake Linux 8.2 on my ThinkPad 390X now. The only reason I picked a ThinkPad to run Linux is because it has a "middle button", so I can click it to copy and paste some very long string of text. Since IBM is dropping Linux support on ThinkPads, and the whole idea is to have a UNIX terminal on a sexy notebook, my next machine will definitely have to be an Apple iBook! Makes sense! I doubt Apple will be dropping UNIX support for its notebooks anytime soon. *smile* It *is* FreeBSD candy coated in a super cool looking Aqua interface. Long live UNIX! Long live sexy Apple iBooks! :)
I dunno 'bout you, but my experience with Linux on my Thinkpad has been pretty miserable thanks to slim-to-nonexistent support from the major distro vendors.
A fact of life with laptops is that network connectivity is generally dependent on a PCMCIA card, and if you haven't tried mucking with PCMCIA support under Linux -- especially if you are using older or less popular hardware -- skip it and try something pleasant instead, like being dragged by a helicopter through a valley full of broken glass. Worse, a lot of laptops don't have CD-ROM drives (like my old slimline Thinkpad).
Can't install from the network or a CD? Fine. Copy the install CDs to a FAT32 partition; some distros support installing that way. Don't have a large enough hard drive for the latest bloated RedHat release? Fine. Try floppies instead. Oh wait -- the only "major" distro that supports much of a floppy install is Debian. (Forgive me if I err -- I haven't tried SuSE.)
So let's give a big round of applause to the Debian folks, but before we send a big razzberry to IBM, let's extend one first to the I-wanna-outbloat-Microsoft fiends who make the commercial Linux distributions.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
if the titaniums had one, I would consider them an alternative to my thinkpads which I have been using 14hours a day during the past 3 years.
My primer is a 600E running FreeBSD, but have also been tested with Linux. Works!
As for IBM, humm.. Should I need a new laptop or buy one for my coworkers or recommend one, even if it is supposed to run windows for starters, then I would be sure to select one that would also have native support for FreeBSD/Linux. IBM is still the primer for this, but they have to keep up the relationship as its a selling point for many of us that we have the support as a security.
To the apple folks: do something about that titanium powerbook and the missing trackpoint, and we got a deal.
"Tested operating systems:Microsoft Windows 2000, Microsoft Windows 98, Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition, Microsoft Windows Millennium (Japan), Microsoft Windows NT 4.0, Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition, Microsoft Windows XP Professional, Microsoft Windows Millennium"
"Other lRecommendation: IBM PCs use genuine Microsoft® Windows® www.microsoft.com/piracy/howtotell"
Or for the ThinkPad A31: "Tested operating systems: Operating system provided:Microsoft Windows XP Professional". Nothing else ...
Linux not even tested, and they send you to MS' piracy page.
So even if they dont want to sell with Linux preinstalled they could at least inform whether some Linux distros will work with the hardware or not. And they do not really need to recommend MS Windows. Ah well ...
I just laughed out loud and the whole office thinks I now completely lost my mind. Oh, well they thought this before anyway. The description just fits me accurately.
Now, I'll be going back to my underground smelling GNU/Linux life.
Another nail in the coffin of a dying operating system that has set back innovation by copying what's already in SunOS, AIX, Ultrix, HP/UX, and BSD. Linux deserves a special place in the worst things that has happenned to computing. Spread the word that Linux is "not ready for prime time" as recently stated by Andrew Hume at Usenix 2002 and should never wasted so much developer time. Switch to the truly free truly stable truly advanced FreeBSD today.
it would of course be better if many of you simply send an inquiry to IBM (or any other notebook seller), asking with which Linux distros the hardware will work and if it is available without a preinstalled MS OS. Instead of silently deleting the MS OS from the harddisk, struggling with finding the correct drivers on your own and then lamenting about bad support of hardware companies, let them *know* there is a need. If there is no need, or they dont realize that there is one, why should they ever bother?
I am in Apple's target market. I am a long-time Unix user. I appreciate quality! I lust after their laptops. But I just can't buy one, yet.
This is because I can't use the keyboards on their laptops. I need the key to the left of the 'A' to be a Ctrl key. This is not just a want; it is a genuine need based upon ergonomic reasons.
When Apple redesigns their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards, instead of built-in ADB keyboards, they will have fixed the problem. They have not yet done so.
Note: is is now possible to use the built-in ADB keyboard with Debian GNU/Linux, but as of yet, Apple has not made it possible for unix old-timers to use with OSX. Nor is it possible (as far as I know) to use with FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD.
For full details on how the ADB keyboard was mis-designed, check out my previous slashdot posts.
Please note that my intention is not to troll. My intention is to warn other long-time unix users that Apple's laptop keyboards are not yet acceptable, and also to try to communicate this fact to people inside Apple. I want to effect change. I want Apple to fix this last problem, so that I can enthusiastically support them. If I didn't care, and if I didn't want to see this positive change, I wouldn't have bothered spending the time to make these posts.
Unfortunately, I have almost no hope. Apple has demonstrated for more than 10 years that they will not address the concerns of unix users. I sincerely hope that they change their ways. The fact that they now have a very-high quality unix OS gives me hope that they might start to care about unix users.
I am in Apple's target market. I am a long-time Unix user. I appreciate quality! I lust after their laptops. But I just can't buy one, yet.
This is because I can't use the keyboards on their laptops. I need the key to the left of the 'A' to be a Ctrl key. This is not just a want; it is a genuine need based upon ergonomic reasons.
When Apple redesigns their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards, instead of built-in ADB keyboards, they will have fixed the problem. They have not yet done so.
Note: is is now possible to use the built-in ADB keyboard with Debian GNU/Linux, but as of yet, Apple has not made it possible for unix old-timers to use with OSX. Nor is it possible (as far as I know) to use with FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD.
For full details on how the ADB keyboard was mis-designed, check out my previous slashdot posts.
Please note that my intention is not to troll. My intention is to warn other long-time unix users that Apple's laptop keyboards are not yet acceptable, and also to try to communicate this fact to people inside Apple. I want to effect change. I want Apple to fix this last problem, so that I can enthusiastically support them. If I didn't care, and if I didn't want to see this positive change, I wouldn't have bothered spending the time to make these posts.
Unfortunately, I have almost no hope. Apple has demonstrated for more than 10 years that they will not address the concerns of unix users. I sincerely hope that they change their ways. The fact that they now have a very-high quality unix OS gives me hope that they might start to care about unix users.
I've been using Linux on a ThinkPad for some time now. If it stops being compatible, my next laptop won't be a ThinkPad.
Just because IBM stop supporting it doesn't mean compatibility halts right there. I've been using FreeBSD on my Thinkpad for 2 years, where was the IBM support for FreeBSD?
-= This is a self-referential sig =-
Yes, most people understand that, especially me who work a lot with big servers. Senior exec's may be a different story, they are much more affected by FUD.
My point is that a senior exec may/will be FUD'ed into beliving that the fact that IBM is dropping Linux from Laptops may indicate that they'll drop it entirely and therefore buy Sun or even Windows...
The "butterfly keyboard" was a nifty bit of mechanics but was a reliability disaster! They failed and jammed and failed and jammed and failed!
The 'eraser' pointing device is actually a Tackpoint(tm) developed by Toshiba an licensed to IBM.
I have always found Thinkpads to be crufty and cheaply made. The Toshiba Tecra and Portege lines were superior in everyway until about 2 years ago, now they are just as crufty and cheap (yet oddly expensive too).
Yeah, you heard me!
My point is that a senior exec may/will be FUD'ed into beliving that the fact that IBM is dropping Linux from Laptops may indicate that they'll drop it entirely and therefore buy Sun or even Windows...
So....
Do these same execs stop buying Solaris because Sun doesn't produce laptops? Or that Sun doesn't actively support Solaris on laptops?
I'll grant you that it's a little different that Sun has never supported laptops, and therefore isn't seen to "drop" anything, but I still think it's a little absurd to look at laptop policy when evaluating servers. If some faceless "exec's" commitment to IBM and Linux is that soft, then I submit he/she was looking for an excuse to dump/ignore Linux anyway.
No Big Deal.
AS LONG AS, of course, the laptop hardware is fully publicized and IBM doesn't pull any secret crap like Nvidia does, making it next too impossible to develop drivers for any devices included with the laptop.
hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
> Yet again, another person assuming everyone
>wants windows
I never suggested that EVERYONE wants Windows.
The simple fact is that MORE people want Windows, and since IBM is first and foremost a business, it makes economical sense to focus on what most of the customers want.
Maybe they did some sort of analysis and realized that it wasn't cost effective to support Linux on Thinkpads. If you don't like that, too bad. You can still install it yourself.
IBM is big enough that they can stand up to MS and not be bullied into installing ONLY Windows. Let's also not forget that, as you mentioned, MS *IS* currently in court for bullying their customers. It'd be pretty stupid for them to try these kinds of tactics on IBM right now, wouldn't it?
Say what you like about Microsoft, but they didn't get to where they are today by being dumb.
-l