I don't live in Switzerland but have some familiarity with their system.
Their constitution, which I consider the best among those I've seen, guarantees the right for the public to challenge government-proposed laws by collecting a certain number of signatures. The government is then constitutionally required to hold a binding referendum. This applies to all laws, federal and local. The public can also create their own laws in the same manner, and the government doesn't have the power to stop them. Truly elegant. I wish we had the same in the EU.
Switzerland is a member of WIPO though, and thus will most likely not be spared. I don't know how the initiative and referendum laws deal with international treaties.
As for choice A and B, countries with a parliamentary system typically at least have a choice of A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. But that doesn't come close to citizens having ultimate power over each and ever law, like in Switzerland, obviously.
You are wrong about one thing. That is not the EU version, that is the European Convention on Human Rights which is unrelated to the EU.
Other than that, I would have to agree... the loopholes in there are pretty significant. And the constitutions of the member states of the EU, who tend to have much more wide interpretations of free speech, are required to abide by EU laws. EU laws override national constitutions (!).
This would apply if it was a national decision. But it's already been approved on EU level. Either Holland implements the EUCP into law, or it risks being sued in the EU's Court of Justice. And the commision is often zealous when it comes to the swiftness of national implementation of EU laws, having sued many states before for insufficient laws.
On the other hand, one could argue that hardly anyone would use the internet today without the web. I do agree HTTP, HTML and the URL system is fairly trivial compared to TCP/IP, although sometimes the best ideas are indeed trivial. In the end what counts it what gains widespread adoption (read: Windows), as opposed to technologically advanced solutions (read: {insert_favourite_OS}).
I'm not sure about the origins of SGML or how well, if at all, HTML conforms to it. Anyway, it all depends on how far back we trace inventions. All are basically based on a previous invention, in turn based on a previous invention, etc. Modern operating systems are largely created based on the concepts developed by Dutch fellow Dijkstra (who tragically passed away the other day), who in turn was inspired by great thinkers (in America and elsewhere) before him.
In the end it's probably not very productive to use these things as a basis for declaring national superiority, for Americans and Europeans alike (not saying that anyone in this particular thread is doing that). Science knows no national borders. I just wanted to add my 0.2.
Many seem to forget that the EU isn't emulating the USA in this case. The EUCP and DMCA are both the results of an international copyright treaty by WIPO, an organization created by the WTO (World Trade Organization).
With 179 members, almost all countries in the world are covered, including Canada and Switzerland.
Can anyone comment on the possibilities of constitutional federal initiative and referendum laws in Switzerland being possible to use to get rid of this, assuming the public eventually voted it down in a referendum? Or is it too late to get rid of the law if it has already been passed?
European Union
Delegation of the European Commission to the United States
2300 M Street, NW Washington, DC 20037
Telephone: (202) 862-9500 Fax: (202) 429-1766
Laws in the EU must be passed by the Council (governments of the member states), and sometimes the European Parliament, in order to come into effect.
In this case, the EUCP was already passed on European level last year, and member states are required to implement it in their own legislation.
The EU equivalent of the US constitution are the treaties that formed it, and other treaties that have been approved. There are a handful of them. Member state laws and EU laws can be challenged in the European Court of Justice (the EU equivalent of the US Supreme Court) on the grounds that they conflict with the treaties. For example, a far-reaching EU ban on tobacco advertising was challenged and thrown out on the grounds that the Commision did not have the juristiction to pass such a law.
The treaties are long and complex. No normal human being reads through them so I am not aware to what extent the EUCP may conflict with the treaties. Even if the EU as such can not pass it, there is nothing preventing the heads of state of the individual governments from coming together outside the EU and deciding to collective (try) to get this directive passed in each and every state (assuming the national legislatures agree).
The European Court of Justice, comprising judges from each member state, is traditionally used by member states or institutions to sue other states or institutions. It is rare that individuals challenge laws, but to the best of my knowledge this is possible -- I think recent case law confirms that.
There is also another possibility: some 40-50 countries of Europe are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights, which has its own court. If the EUCP happens to violate any of the freedom of speech and freedom of expression guarantees found there, I imagine a motivated individual with the proper legal assistance may be able to try this as well.
EFF is in the process of establishing a European presence. There are varoius civil rights movements in Europe but I'm not familiar with one as focused on computer issues as EFF.
Mosaic wasn't the first browser, I think. From CERN's page:
"Tim [Berners Lee] together with Robert Cailliau wrote the first WWW client (a browser-editor running under NeXTStep)..."
I don't think it's particularly important, just wanted to add that. I have a lot of respect for scientists and engineers worldwide, and know that their inventions are based on inventions before them. "I stand on the shoulder of giants" or how that famous quote goes.
The web is not the same thing as the internet. The internet comprises the basic foundation, the most basic protocols (TCP/IP, etc). The web is the technologies that make websites possible (HTML, HTTP, etc). The web was created at CERN, the European nuclear research lab in Switzerland.
You can find more information at the official information page here. Needless to say, that doesn't change anything. The idea for a strictly European internet is as silly as they come. Besides, Europe occasionally passes bad laws, too.
Looks like the article has been./'ed so I can't have a look. But based only on the summary in this story, this is one of the most stupid ideas I have heard in a long time. And I'm speaking as an EUian.
The web was a European invention (by Tim Berners Lee at CERN), although it does make use of the internet (TCP/IP) which is an American invention. So let's call it a draw.:)
Anyway, no, no serious op-ed pieces use words like that. But The Register is a computer tabloid and shouldn't be taken seriously anyway.
/ Robert in Sweden
Re:"...all for about $5 a month."
on
The Last Place
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
You're making two assumptions here.
First, that local stations will purchase American some programming. That may well happen but is far from a certainty.
Secondly, and most importantly, that they will show American ads. That makes exactly zero sense. They would show ads targeted towards the local population. No other country I know of, even with some American TV and movies, has ads for exclusively American products. Do you really think that they will broadcast directly from American channels??
Until this nasty rendering bug gets fixed that causes it to sometimes malfunction with my favourite online newspaper and some other sites, I won't go near Mozilla again.
Until it will support more than one SMTP server, I wouldn't consider Mozilla better for e-mail. In fact, at the moment, it's pretty useless for me based on the lack of that support (since many SMTP servers typically won't forward mail originating from other ISPs).
I'm not particularly fond of Linux for desktop use. I installed Lycoris but noticed that it wouldn't work with my USB mouse, and that it appeared to select the wrong graphics driver making everything dead-sluggish. I then gave the latest Red Hat a try and noticed it has improved a lot since I last tried it a few years ago. Not only did it have a nice graphical install, it also recognized my USB mouse and selected the appropriate graphics driver without any hitches. Very nice. I run it now on my second box.
I would think cell phone usage is relatively similar throughout the EU. If I'm not mistaken, the population density of the US is about one third of that of the EU which is a big but maybe not a huge difference. I think you're on to something, but I wonder if it's really a significant reason for why the US has lagged behind in this area.
Slashdot Mirror
Perhaps you could post it as a comment to this story? I'd be really interested and I bet others would as well.
I don't live in Switzerland but have some familiarity with their system.
Their constitution, which I consider the best among those I've seen, guarantees the right for the public to challenge government-proposed laws by collecting a certain number of signatures. The government is then constitutionally required to hold a binding referendum. This applies to all laws, federal and local. The public can also create their own laws in the same manner, and the government doesn't have the power to stop them. Truly elegant. I wish we had the same in the EU.
Switzerland is a member of WIPO though, and thus will most likely not be spared. I don't know how the initiative and referendum laws deal with international treaties.
As for choice A and B, countries with a parliamentary system typically at least have a choice of A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. But that doesn't come close to citizens having ultimate power over each and ever law, like in Switzerland, obviously.
You are wrong about one thing. That is not the EU version, that is the European Convention on Human Rights which is unrelated to the EU.
Other than that, I would have to agree... the loopholes in there are pretty significant. And the constitutions of the member states of the EU, who tend to have much more wide interpretations of free speech, are required to abide by EU laws. EU laws override national constitutions (!).
This would apply if it was a national decision. But it's already been approved on EU level. Either Holland implements the EUCP into law, or it risks being sued in the EU's Court of Justice. And the commision is often zealous when it comes to the swiftness of national implementation of EU laws, having sued many states before for insufficient laws.
On the other hand, one could argue that hardly anyone would use the internet today without the web. I do agree HTTP, HTML and the URL system is fairly trivial compared to TCP/IP, although sometimes the best ideas are indeed trivial. In the end what counts it what gains widespread adoption (read: Windows), as opposed to technologically advanced solutions (read: {insert_favourite_OS}).
I'm not sure about the origins of SGML or how well, if at all, HTML conforms to it. Anyway, it all depends on how far back we trace inventions. All are basically based on a previous invention, in turn based on a previous invention, etc. Modern operating systems are largely created based on the concepts developed by Dutch fellow Dijkstra (who tragically passed away the other day), who in turn was inspired by great thinkers (in America and elsewhere) before him.
In the end it's probably not very productive to use these things as a basis for declaring national superiority, for Americans and Europeans alike (not saying that anyone in this particular thread is doing that). Science knows no national borders. I just wanted to add my 0.2.
Many seem to forget that the EU isn't emulating the USA in this case. The EUCP and DMCA are both the results of an international copyright treaty by WIPO, an organization created by the WTO (World Trade Organization).
With 179 members, almost all countries in the world are covered, including Canada and Switzerland.
Can anyone comment on the possibilities of constitutional federal initiative and referendum laws in Switzerland being possible to use to get rid of this, assuming the public eventually voted it down in a referendum? Or is it too late to get rid of the law if it has already been passed?
I bet the procedures governing the European Patent Office are publicly available. Perhaps even on their own website.
The EU Embassy in Washington, maybe:
European Union
Delegation of the European Commission to the United States
2300 M Street, NW Washington, DC 20037
Telephone: (202) 862-9500 Fax: (202) 429-1766
The European Patent Office has nothing to do with the EU. It's a separate institution.
Thanks. I had no idea and will give it a try.
Laws in the EU must be passed by the Council (governments of the member states), and sometimes the European Parliament, in order to come into effect.
In this case, the EUCP was already passed on European level last year, and member states are required to implement it in their own legislation.
The EU equivalent of the US constitution are the treaties that formed it, and other treaties that have been approved. There are a handful of them. Member state laws and EU laws can be challenged in the European Court of Justice (the EU equivalent of the US Supreme Court) on the grounds that they conflict with the treaties. For example, a far-reaching EU ban on tobacco advertising was challenged and thrown out on the grounds that the Commision did not have the juristiction to pass such a law.
The treaties are long and complex. No normal human being reads through them so I am not aware to what extent the EUCP may conflict with the treaties. Even if the EU as such can not pass it, there is nothing preventing the heads of state of the individual governments from coming together outside the EU and deciding to collective (try) to get this directive passed in each and every state (assuming the national legislatures agree).
The European Court of Justice, comprising judges from each member state, is traditionally used by member states or institutions to sue other states or institutions. It is rare that individuals challenge laws, but to the best of my knowledge this is possible -- I think recent case law confirms that.
There is also another possibility: some 40-50 countries of Europe are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights, which has its own court. If the EUCP happens to violate any of the freedom of speech and freedom of expression guarantees found there, I imagine a motivated individual with the proper legal assistance may be able to try this as well.
EFF is in the process of establishing a European presence. There are varoius civil rights movements in Europe but I'm not familiar with one as focused on computer issues as EFF.
Mosaic wasn't the first browser, I think. From CERN's page:
"Tim [Berners Lee] together with Robert Cailliau wrote the first WWW client (a browser-editor running under NeXTStep)..."
I don't think it's particularly important, just wanted to add that. I have a lot of respect for scientists and engineers worldwide, and know that their inventions are based on inventions before them. "I stand on the shoulder of giants" or how that famous quote goes.
The web is not the same thing as the internet. The internet comprises the basic foundation, the most basic protocols (TCP/IP, etc). The web is the technologies that make websites possible (HTML, HTTP, etc). The web was created at CERN, the European nuclear research lab in Switzerland. You can find more information at the official information page here. Needless to say, that doesn't change anything. The idea for a strictly European internet is as silly as they come. Besides, Europe occasionally passes bad laws, too.
Looks like the article has been ./'ed so I can't have a look. But based only on the summary in this story, this is one of the most stupid ideas I have heard in a long time. And I'm speaking as an EUian.
The web was a European invention (by Tim Berners Lee at CERN), although it does make use of the internet (TCP/IP) which is an American invention. So let's call it a draw. :)
Anyway, no, no serious op-ed pieces use words like that. But The Register is a computer tabloid and shouldn't be taken seriously anyway.
/ Robert in Sweden
You're making two assumptions here. First, that local stations will purchase American some programming. That may well happen but is far from a certainty. Secondly, and most importantly, that they will show American ads. That makes exactly zero sense. They would show ads targeted towards the local population. No other country I know of, even with some American TV and movies, has ads for exclusively American products. Do you really think that they will broadcast directly from American channels??
He claimed to a be physisist, according to another poster here.
Well said. May Dijkstra Rest In Peace.
The combined EU population is actually 380 million citizens, about a hundred million more than the US.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146851
Until this nasty rendering bug gets fixed that causes it to sometimes malfunction with my favourite online newspaper and some other sites, I won't go near Mozilla again.
Until it will support more than one SMTP server, I wouldn't consider Mozilla better for e-mail. In fact, at the moment, it's pretty useless for me based on the lack of that support (since many SMTP servers typically won't forward mail originating from other ISPs).
I'm not particularly fond of Linux for desktop use. I installed Lycoris but noticed that it wouldn't work with my USB mouse, and that it appeared to select the wrong graphics driver making everything dead-sluggish. I then gave the latest Red Hat a try and noticed it has improved a lot since I last tried it a few years ago. Not only did it have a nice graphical install, it also recognized my USB mouse and selected the appropriate graphics driver without any hitches. Very nice. I run it now on my second box.
I would think cell phone usage is relatively similar throughout the EU. If I'm not mistaken, the population density of the US is about one third of that of the EU which is a big but maybe not a huge difference. I think you're on to something, but I wonder if it's really a significant reason for why the US has lagged behind in this area.