"Enterprise" projects are so full of unique challenges, I don't see why something like the way you store your data makes a fuckola of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Everything gets rewritten a few times anyway. Even eBay.
Yeah, that is the point. Who gives a fuck. Just get the damn thing up and make it work and make it not loose money.
Cause you're just going to be rewriting it every month anyway.
Unless you replicate the same integrity logic in all of your applications (and pray you don't have any bugs!), you will eventually run into problems where someone else has screwed up your data.
Use common libraries. Problem solved.
That's all the DB is: it's a common library that happens to be called a "database" because lots of specialization has gone into it. Right? So it's sits in it's own "process"...big dead....
Noone sits around saying "ah library has to be design perfectly", they just need it to work. Now, you're worried about referential integrity...but i'm not really sure that's a big issue. At least with the DBs I work with, the main issue is the user coming to people and saying "the data isn't correct" and it's not correct because they entered it incorrectly or whatever, not because the referential integrity broke down.
Now, yes, you want your data to be correct. But it's not. And it never will be. You can centralize it in a good DB and hope that things work out, but that's due to your centralization, not your "database", whatever that is. You're still stuck dealing with all the other billion problems with the data.
Maybe I'm just babling and not dealing with the topic. I'm not a DBA. I'm a coder and a mathematician. I look at these debatesl ike "who gives a fuck, it's all same, just make sure the program works." maybe all these years i've been whoring out the DBAs but... *shrug* the user's don't care about DBAs, they care about my program using the DB;)
Programming is math. And math is hard. For starters, 99.9999% of all math is random and impossible to understand in the technical, math sense (proove) (extrapolation from Godel and Turing and Chaitin and Cantor...and yes, it really is 99.999....%).
When you sit out and design something to match a real-world process, you do fine. Then, you change something, you'll never know the impact of that change. You can't design for it in advance. A change of 1 character in the design could litterly require the entire code to be rewritten. You cannot prove how big your impact will be. Ever. That is why programmers get frustrated when customers change their mind "o but I just want it in this differnt order," "godamnit now i have rewrite half the loop..."
That is because good programming isn't just about being "smart", or about "planning"... most of the times, you are running against the fundamentals of understanding the algorithms in question, even with something as simple as lists or hashs or whatever.
The fact of the matter is is that programs are late because of bugs, and there are bugs because of the fundamentals limitations of math/the universe. You can't just smart them away cause you're some genius coder. All the genius coders write in their own designed language that best matches their thought processes and is easy to rewrite (i.e. they just gave up and went with LISP) with the assumption that they are going to rewrite most of the damn thing anyway at all stages of the game and the quicker they can rewrite it the better.
And that is why all these languages are getting closer and closer to LISP was 40 years ago...python, java, smalltalk, etc etc etc....automatic memory management and fast re-write cycle is the best way to write code for 100% of all projects (sans anything with 100,000+ intensive simultaneous users or an airplane code or something when you are bearing up against the engineering portion of things).
That's just my opinion. But I think it's fairly accurate. I've been programming from birth it feels like and I studied the math and I now I write for a large corporation where every schedule slips all the time and I have to deal interpreting customers and figuring out what they want and all I have say is:
There is no magic bullet and there NEVER WILL BE. Read Godel, Turing, Chaitin, etc. You'll be better for it. You're not going to fix your problems by using OSX instead of Windows or Oracle triggers instead of MySQL+PHP or Object Oriented instead of functional or procedural or XML web services instead of TCP/IP and binary. None of those things fucking matter, ok, fanbois? They're corporate games, that's it.
The best you're going to get is to find a language that fits how your brain thinks and that you can rewrite things in QUICKLY (i.e., don't even bother with the write-compile-link cycle... write it in LISP then have something covert the LISP to compiled code at some later day after you've profiled it)...
o, and a good text editor;)
and if management gives you shit, tell em to jump off a cliff. it's their only job to schedule, and if they aren't smart enough to schedule things with the understanding that schedules change for things that have nothing to do with how smart or good someone is as a programmer, they're worse than worthless anyway and you'd best find a new boss quick.
(no, I am not going to implement transactions, referential integrity, or subqueries in my application code. That's just stupid)
i think your problem boils down to the fact you want the DB to do everything when really it doesn't matter. the application is there and the DB NEEDS IT cause no user sits down and writes SQL statements. if you were a competent programmer, doing "DB" things in your "application" wouldn't be stupid, it'd be easy, cause you'd know your data structures and your sorting algorithms like any CS grad. o, and meanwhile, the user could care less about your DB triggers as long as the damn application works. they probably don't even know there is a database back there. and what the user doesn't know, doesn't matter.
Even better: no one responds to LISP flamewars in favor of LISP because the LISP programmers hit nirvana decade ago, consider the DBA a commodity who just needs to make sure 1 = 1 and that the damn server is up. The LISP programmer meanwhile, in enlightenment, sees only (x), (x x), and (f x).
"Oh, you mean SQL...yeah i used to use that back in the day...before I realized it wasn't even Turing-Complete. How's life in India these days?"
i wonder if any these people actually program for a living or what? i only spend 1/10 or 1/20 of my time programming. the rest is designing, fixing unexpected bugs, fixing user errors, thinking through the trillion implications of my design, coordinating who is doing what, making meetings with users, meetings with management, making sure the DB is still up, etc... o, and the contract just changed, so now the project is worthless anyway...
These article/threads are like children bickering over whether baseball is better than football.
real men are BO JACKSON and could do either, as it is with programming.
and then, when you reach that point, you'll just use LISP anyway and think everything else sucks ass and is for the commodity programmers who live in the basement and worship Java, Oracle, and... *shudder* design patterns.
Until it's possible to build a system in MySQL that doesn't allow bad data, those of us who *really* know what we're doing won't touch it, even for throwaway projects (I've got plenty of war stories about prototypes that are still in production use too).
yes, well, those of us who *really* know what we're doing are the ones writing the applications (in LISP, undoubtedly), and we consider your DBA job as a commodity-level position that would be nonexistent without our applications there to ensure the dumb-ass user can even get to your inherently worthless data. and we write libraries to ensure "referential integrity". you can write your logic in the application and fuck it up, you can write your logic in the DB and fuck it up, and yes, you can butter your bread on either side and still fuck it up. do any of these pointless debates really matter? no. computing is increasing exponentially. there are no godamn golden bullets! what works is what works...
thats why jobs are going to india. it's a godamn commodity cause no matter what you're going to hire a billion programmers anyway just to the maintain the application and to tell the users what the application is even doing and to clean up the data after some dumb-ass user entered in the wrong data, referential integrity or not, and to get the charts lined up properly for management and to....
All the new languages are getting closer and closer to LISP. Java, C++, Python, Smalltalk...
The things that LISP has always had right are slowly and surely making their way into all the major languages. Those things (garbage collection, abstract functions, lazy eval, proper recursion, etc.) are what make LISP great, not the syntax. Screw the syntax. I mean besides, anyone can write an interpreter in LISP in a week for any language they want, and then just code in that.
So if I understand tfa, the main benefit of using.Net is because it has automatic memory management? Because it cuts down on developer time, bugs, etc?
I mean, big fucking deal. I'd rather not use another development platform that's just a wanna-be LISP dialect with a bunch of new libraries to learn.
For god's sakes, can everyone just please get over their small-dick big-dick contest and use a LISP dialect? It's only been around for 50 years... with automatic memory management, the whole deal. You'll write code 10x faster than if you used C++....
Actually, a large chunk of the Netscape source code that was released made its way into Mozilla.
You can thank Netscape for the lack of (total) IE dominance.
Yes.
I mean, ok, so it's your call. But does it really matter what OS/environment you work with? I always thought real programmers could care less... It's not like you're doing it for fun--you ARE getting paid, after all.
Besides, you should have waited till you found a new job before you quit your old one.
I would agree that the main benefit is in the APPLICATION, not the OS. For the same reason that the main benefits in programming come from the LANGUAGE and not the PLATFORM.
I use Windows, Linux/Unix, and OSX daily. I used to use MacOS. I program. I play games. I surf the web, do email, basic computer crap. And really, the OS bothers me not at all. I mean, all I need is to have a few keys bound to "maximize window", "minimize window", "size this window to 800x600", "open emacs", "open mozilla", and "open finder/explorer", and something like "alt+tab" and thats really about all I need.
I spend all the rest of my time trying to figure out how to write a bit of code or what to do next than HOW to do it. I just need the damn window to open up. Everyting else comes from there.
Also, alot depends on what OTHERS use. If I am communicating with my coworkers, I use Outlook and Office. Period. When I code at work I have to code half my stuff in ColdFusion for god's sakes, not because its a good language (its not...at all...it hurts), but because everyone else uses it so... *shrug*
Fact of the matter is the only big gains I see from productivity come from a good language (I can't WAIT until ARC comes out...god please help Paul Graham finish it!) and like some sort of 3D interface linked to my brain. Otherwise, it's only a matter of a keystroke or two. There is really NO difference between the OSes for those who are in-the-know.
Oh, and the zero-force keyboard. I want that. I bet that will make me 2x as productive.
Yeah because VMware costs an extra $100+ on top of the cost of Windows. That's the only reason.
If Microsoft provided a vmware equivalent, bundled for free with their OS, then why would anyone bother to use linux directly, unless that's all they used on that machine?
"
Disabled US vets 10 yrs after Viet Nam: 10%
12 yrs after Gulf War: 56%
Stop uranium inhalation poisoning! "
Yeah...I wish people realized this...long term casulties for Iraq, Bosnia, etc. were far larger than Iraq...
Fucking uranium is in every damn bullet, every tank round....
Slashdot Mirror
Does that mean that all distributions now come with the full Paris Hilton porno?!
hahahahahaha. that's fucking hilarious.
Yeah, that is the point. Who gives a fuck. Just get the damn thing up and make it work and make it not loose money.
Cause you're just going to be rewriting it every month anyway.
Use common libraries. Problem solved.
That's all the DB is: it's a common library that happens to be called a "database" because lots of specialization has gone into it. Right? So it's sits in it's own "process"...big dead....
Noone sits around saying "ah library has to be design perfectly", they just need it to work. Now, you're worried about referential integrity...but i'm not really sure that's a big issue. At least with the DBs I work with, the main issue is the user coming to people and saying "the data isn't correct" and it's not correct because they entered it incorrectly or whatever, not because the referential integrity broke down.
Now, yes, you want your data to be correct. But it's not. And it never will be. You can centralize it in a good DB and hope that things work out, but that's due to your centralization, not your "database", whatever that is. You're still stuck dealing with all the other billion problems with the data.
Maybe I'm just babling and not dealing with the topic. I'm not a DBA. I'm a coder and a mathematician. I look at these debatesl ike "who gives a fuck, it's all same, just make sure the program works." maybe all these years i've been whoring out the DBAs but... *shrug* the user's don't care about DBAs, they care about my program using the DB ;)
Look....
;)
Programming is math. And math is hard. For starters, 99.9999% of all math is random and impossible to understand in the technical, math sense (proove) (extrapolation from Godel and Turing and Chaitin and Cantor...and yes, it really is 99.999....%).
When you sit out and design something to match a real-world process, you do fine. Then, you change something, you'll never know the impact of that change. You can't design for it in advance. A change of 1 character in the design could litterly require the entire code to be rewritten. You cannot prove how big your impact will be. Ever. That is why programmers get frustrated when customers change their mind "o but I just want it in this differnt order," "godamnit now i have rewrite half the loop..."
That is because good programming isn't just about being "smart", or about "planning"... most of the times, you are running against the fundamentals of understanding the algorithms in question, even with something as simple as lists or hashs or whatever.
The fact of the matter is is that programs are late because of bugs, and there are bugs because of the fundamentals limitations of math/the universe. You can't just smart them away cause you're some genius coder. All the genius coders write in their own designed language that best matches their thought processes and is easy to rewrite (i.e. they just gave up and went with LISP) with the assumption that they are going to rewrite most of the damn thing anyway at all stages of the game and the quicker they can rewrite it the better.
And that is why all these languages are getting closer and closer to LISP was 40 years ago...python, java, smalltalk, etc etc etc....automatic memory management and fast re-write cycle is the best way to write code for 100% of all projects (sans anything with 100,000+ intensive simultaneous users or an airplane code or something when you are bearing up against the engineering portion of things).
That's just my opinion. But I think it's fairly accurate. I've been programming from birth it feels like and I studied the math and I now I write for a large corporation where every schedule slips all the time and I have to deal interpreting customers and figuring out what they want and all I have say is:
There is no magic bullet and there NEVER WILL BE. Read Godel, Turing, Chaitin, etc. You'll be better for it. You're not going to fix your problems by using OSX instead of Windows or Oracle triggers instead of MySQL+PHP or Object Oriented instead of functional or procedural or XML web services instead of TCP/IP and binary. None of those things fucking matter, ok, fanbois? They're corporate games, that's it.
The best you're going to get is to find a language that fits how your brain thinks and that you can rewrite things in QUICKLY (i.e., don't even bother with the write-compile-link cycle... write it in LISP then have something covert the LISP to compiled code at some later day after you've profiled it)...
o, and a good text editor
and if management gives you shit, tell em to jump off a cliff. it's their only job to schedule, and if they aren't smart enough to schedule things with the understanding that schedules change for things that have nothing to do with how smart or good someone is as a programmer, they're worse than worthless anyway and you'd best find a new boss quick.
i think your problem boils down to the fact you want the DB to do everything when really it doesn't matter. the application is there and the DB NEEDS IT cause no user sits down and writes SQL statements. if you were a competent programmer, doing "DB" things in your "application" wouldn't be stupid, it'd be easy, cause you'd know your data structures and your sorting algorithms like any CS grad. o, and meanwhile, the user could care less about your DB triggers as long as the damn application works. they probably don't even know there is a database back there. and what the user doesn't know, doesn't matter.
"Oh, you mean SQL...yeah i used to use that back in the day...before I realized it wasn't even Turing-Complete. How's life in India these days?"
ahahahahahahahah so true.
i wonder if any these people actually program for a living or what? i only spend 1/10 or 1/20 of my time programming. the rest is designing, fixing unexpected bugs, fixing user errors, thinking through the trillion implications of my design, coordinating who is doing what, making meetings with users, meetings with management, making sure the DB is still up, etc... o, and the contract just changed, so now the project is worthless anyway...
These article/threads are like children bickering over whether baseball is better than football.
real men are BO JACKSON and could do either, as it is with programming.
and then, when you reach that point, you'll just use LISP anyway and think everything else sucks ass and is for the commodity programmers who live in the basement and worship Java, Oracle, and... *shudder* design patterns.
yes, well, those of us who *really* know what we're doing are the ones writing the applications (in LISP, undoubtedly), and we consider your DBA job as a commodity-level position that would be nonexistent without our applications there to ensure the dumb-ass user can even get to your inherently worthless data. and we write libraries to ensure "referential integrity". you can write your logic in the application and fuck it up, you can write your logic in the DB and fuck it up, and yes, you can butter your bread on either side and still fuck it up. do any of these pointless debates really matter? no. computing is increasing exponentially. there are no godamn golden bullets! what works is what works...
thats why jobs are going to india. it's a godamn commodity cause no matter what you're going to hire a billion programmers anyway just to the maintain the application and to tell the users what the application is even doing and to clean up the data after some dumb-ass user entered in the wrong data, referential integrity or not, and to get the charts lined up properly for management and to....
haha yeah. hopefully Arc won't turn into a mirror of HURD... i'm salivating here just thinking about how much easier my life would be with Arc...
All the new languages are getting closer and closer to LISP. Java, C++, Python, Smalltalk... The things that LISP has always had right are slowly and surely making their way into all the major languages. Those things (garbage collection, abstract functions, lazy eval, proper recursion, etc.) are what make LISP great, not the syntax. Screw the syntax. I mean besides, anyone can write an interpreter in LISP in a week for any language they want, and then just code in that.
So if I understand tfa, the main benefit of using .Net is because it has automatic memory management? Because it cuts down on developer time, bugs, etc?
I mean, big fucking deal. I'd rather not use another development platform that's just a wanna-be LISP dialect with a bunch of new libraries to learn.
For god's sakes, can everyone just please get over their small-dick big-dick contest and use a LISP dialect? It's only been around for 50 years... with automatic memory management, the whole deal. You'll write code 10x faster than if you used C++....
Actually, a large chunk of the Netscape source code that was released made its way into Mozilla. You can thank Netscape for the lack of (total) IE dominance.
I think at least one died from radiation. Her husband bit it, too.
There is Python/tk. The problem is that TK sucks compared to wxWindows.
d x (wget google.com) x
Agreed... it's a pain in the ass coding for Mozilla and IE. I won't even mention Netscape 4.7...
javascript is basically LISP. when you realize this, javascript will no longer make you cry. assuming, of course, that lisp doesn't make you cry. ;)
Which doesn't change the fact the person shoulda waited till they had such a wonderful amazing perfect job before they ditched their old one.
Yes. I mean, ok, so it's your call. But does it really matter what OS/environment you work with? I always thought real programmers could care less... It's not like you're doing it for fun--you ARE getting paid, after all. Besides, you should have waited till you found a new job before you quit your old one.
I would agree that the main benefit is in the APPLICATION, not the OS. For the same reason that the main benefits in programming come from the LANGUAGE and not the PLATFORM.
I use Windows, Linux/Unix, and OSX daily. I used to use MacOS. I program. I play games. I surf the web, do email, basic computer crap. And really, the OS bothers me not at all. I mean, all I need is to have a few keys bound to "maximize window", "minimize window", "size this window to 800x600", "open emacs", "open mozilla", and "open finder/explorer", and something like "alt+tab" and thats really about all I need.
I spend all the rest of my time trying to figure out how to write a bit of code or what to do next than HOW to do it. I just need the damn window to open up. Everyting else comes from there.
Also, alot depends on what OTHERS use. If I am communicating with my coworkers, I use Outlook and Office. Period. When I code at work I have to code half my stuff in ColdFusion for god's sakes, not because its a good language (its not...at all...it hurts), but because everyone else uses it so... *shrug*
Fact of the matter is the only big gains I see from productivity come from a good language (I can't WAIT until ARC comes out...god please help Paul Graham finish it!) and like some sort of 3D interface linked to my brain. Otherwise, it's only a matter of a keystroke or two. There is really NO difference between the OSes for those who are in-the-know.
Oh, and the zero-force keyboard. I want that. I bet that will make me 2x as productive.
Yeah because VMware costs an extra $100+ on top of the cost of Windows. That's the only reason. If Microsoft provided a vmware equivalent, bundled for free with their OS, then why would anyone bother to use linux directly, unless that's all they used on that machine?
That A-10 is one viscious plane/flying tank ain't it.
I mean, "far larger than Vietnam". oops.
" Disabled US vets 10 yrs after Viet Nam: 10% 12 yrs after Gulf War: 56% Stop uranium inhalation poisoning! " Yeah...I wish people realized this...long term casulties for Iraq, Bosnia, etc. were far larger than Iraq... Fucking uranium is in every damn bullet, every tank round....