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EULA Confusion w/ Used Copies of WoW?
They keep telling me they will not transfer an account. I keep telling them I do not want an account transferred, but want to create my own account. What appears to be the final answer is that 'an authentication key can only be used once, regardless of the number of owners.'
This is not stated anywhere in the EULA or Terms of Use. If it is, I have been unable to find it, and *Blizzard has repeatedly ignored my request that they identify where in the EULA or Terms of Use this is stated.*
I have the complete retail package, including the CD case with the Authentication Key. So what if it is has been used in the past? Whatever happened to the first-sale doctrine?
At one point, the Blizzard representative likened my request to buying an empty milk jug and returning to the store to demand more milk for free so I can use the jug. This is an incredibly inept analogy. What Blizzard is doing is allowing only the original purchaser of the jug to buy a refill; anyone else who happens to buy or be given the jug is prohibited from buying more milk to put in it.
Another item of interest is that the representative told me that they can not, for any reason, delete an account, not even at the account owner's request. The most they can do is to suspend the account. Unfortunately, that keeps a record of the Authentication Key in their system, preventing that key from ever being used again.
While the EULA expressly permits permanent transfer of ownership of the game to another person, nowhere does either the EULA or
the Terms of Use mention that such a transfer makes the game completely useless because Blizzard will not allow the new owner to use the game; the game cannot be played without an online account and a subscription to the service, and Blizzard
will not even allow the account to be created.
You might say the "easy" answer is to get the seller to give me the account info for the account he created. However, according to Blizzard's representative, not all of the original
account information can be modified. In fact, enough would be unchangable that the original owner of the account would be able to regain control of the account at any time, should he
desire to do so.
I had no expectation that a used copy of the game would be such a problem. After all, even all of Blizzard's previous games (Warcraft 2, Starcraft, BroodWar) had keys that could be used and passed on while maintaining the reasonable restriction that only one instance of the key could be used
at any one time. (I have never bought or played Warcraft 3, so I do not know about it.) In fact, I bought my copy of Starcraft used and never had any trouble with it.
I am not trying to cheat Blizzard out of anything. I *want* to pay them for a monthly subscription so I can play the game, but they will not allow it solely because at some point in the past someone else has used what is now my copy of the game.
So here's a warning to everyone out there; be very careful if you are thinking about buying a used copy of World of Warcraft. You may have a complete and legitimate set of all the game materials, but you will not be able to play it.
For all the lawyers, and the many IANALs, out there, what do you think of the chances of a lawsuit succeeding to change Blizzard's stance on this? Would anyone else be interested in taking this on with me?"
A question that comes to mind is whether the seller fulfilled all three parts of the Termination clause, section 5 of the EULA. If the seller failed to notify Blizzard of intention to terminate, it could be argued that the seller's licenses remain in effect and thus new license could not be given to the buyer of the used game. But one would hope Blizzard's customer service would at least make this clear to the buyer.
I'm sorry if I'm asking the obvious here, but why not buy a copy from a store instead of a used copy from someone? I mean it's a monthly charge and you're sneaking out of the $39.95 or whatever it is for the base version? (I bought the 'collectors edition' not sure waht the regular one cost)
That being said, I can give you my '10 day free' key if you want to play that bad.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
QED.
Considering how difficult it is right now to find a new copy of WoW this could be a major issue.
For those not in the know, at least for a time, Blizzard pulled from the shelves new copies of WoW and stopped shipping due to server load issues.
I know of more than one person who was unable to get a copy for several weeks because of this.
#include sig.h
One thing left to do: Get your money back from the seller.
They are just saving you the pain of sitting around waiting for a free spot in your server to open. Welcome to the World of Waitcraft, I mean Warcraft.
it sure seems that way, sue them
Maybe Blizzard just never expected anyone to RTFEULA.
:)
3B. You may permanently transfer ownership of the Game and all parts thereof, and all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement, to another by physically transferring the CD-ROM, all original packaging, and all Manuals or other documentation associated with the Game, and by removing from all of your home or personal computers and destroying any remaining materials concerning the Game in your possession or control, provided the recipient agrees to the terms of this License Agreement. The transferor (i.e., you), and not the Licensor, agrees to be solely responsible for any taxes, fees, charges, duties, withholdings, assessments, and the like, together with any interest, penalties, and additions imposed in connection with such transfer.
It appears that you can indeed sell your game, provided you removed anything related to the game, which I think, includes the deactivation of the Authentication Key by the seller, maybe they haven't created the Deactivation Section yet
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
I guess the new policy is:
The key IS the game.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
Every MMO has CD keys that are forever associated with a given account. If you wanted to reuse a key you would have to be given the original account and change the bank information for billing purposes. This is no shocker to most people.
How do you expect them to actually release a CD key? The way these games work is you can come back to it later and renew your account if you wish. How can they renew their account if the key has been released for reuse?
The place you bought it from owes you a refund. Most stores I go to now won't buy back any game that has a CD key tied to online play/accounts.
Well you should have just made sure you got the LOGIN and PASSWORD of the account. That's what I did when I bought my copy off of a friend of mine. You aren't paying for the key when you buy a used MMORPG you are paying for the account and who gives a @#$% if it violates Blizzard's EULA, because they are NOT going to care as long as they get their $20 a month somehow, from someone using that account! End of story.
Actually the Key IS the game -- or more specifically the ACCOUNT.
One key can ever create ONE account. If you get the account name and password to go along with that used CD key, you are in business.
As I understand it, Blizzard representatives cannot cancel any user's account even with their consent. However, it is possible to cancel one's account through the online account management site. Would cancelling your account in this way 'free up' the authentication key? If so, is it the previous owner's responsibility then to delete their account?
Assuming this is the case, then if the previous owner didn't delete their account, they have effectively ripped you off.
the answer is clear. sue them. you know that is what they would do to you if you violated the End User Agreement.
"This is not stated anywhere in the EULA or Terms of Use"
It is, Usually, in the part that says that any situation not specified in the EULA, will be decided in an unilateral fashion by the Company in question. Usually, when you agree with this kind of "contracts", you are actually agreeing to pay an ammount, in orther to be able to do what the company eventually decides that you can do.
My recomendation?, learn to be happy with tuxrace.
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
You're out of luck, because as we all know, EULAs are not legally binding. Thanks for playing! :)
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
and, what pray tell, will be legislated? the issue here is an end user license agreement. and blizzard ain't no "end user."
the bottom line is this: a eula is designed to tell you, the end user, what you may do with the software. it is not a promise of performance or an obligation of service binding on the distributor. period.
2 1337 4 u!
Get a cow. It won't mind if you take an empty milk jug to it and demand more milk from it every day.
Your cow won't judge you.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
To be a true and complete transfer, the seller of the used game should give you the Username/password for the account that is associated for that WoW serial. Otherwise you are getting an incomplete product. It's like buying a used combination lock without getting the combination.
This whole post is utterly ridiculous. The whole point of the CD key is to enforce the fact that one retail copy of WoW is sold per online account. Each account needs its own unique CD key. If you can use that code more than once, then nobody needs to buy retail copies anymore since everyone can just pass around the same CD key. I really can't fathom how someone can not understand that.
You bought a used copy, therefore you are transferring ownership from one person or entity to another. This logic does not apply to a retail store, because the ownership is not being transferred as the auth key is unused.
A stupid analogy would be buying used milk. If you bought the milk used from someone other than grocery store and it expired prior to the "best before" date, it is not the groceries store or the milk producers responsibility for the bad milk.
The only thing I see here is that you are using biased reasoning to justify your disgust at a fundamentally flawed licensing scheme.
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
reason why not to play mmorpgs or pay-to-play games.
When I see that kind of resistance by the company that produced it, it really sets me off. How can you justify buying software that you can't even use out of the box? Why did I just spend x dollars on this if I can't use it? And now I have to shovel x/month to 'enable' it? Get real.
How do pay-to-play games get so popular? I don't understand it. I guess I never will.
How hard can it be? Okay you buy a "used" CD so they don't give you a month's free subscription but force you to pony up $19 immediately.
Even if you assume that this guy just pirated a copy of WOW that's pure revenue to them for each new user.
What's to gain by binding one key to one CD? You want to bind it to one PAYING USER.
Somebody hasn't thought this through and just threw the usual boiler plate out into the EULA and said "ship it!"
So what happens if you install WoW, then your hard drive crashes, then you reinstall WoW? Since your authentication key's already been used?
Yeah, you liberals and your software piracy sicken me. We need to make EULA's ligally binding and backed by criminal punishments to protect innovation. Anyone who is against it hates America.
Actually it's brain dead. In fact, I've never known any software to sport an IQ.
Why does the whole world think that life can be solved in the courts. This is why people sue McDonald's for getting them fat...because the court will win it all for me. Try what you can with the company, if the company has screwed you and won't work with you then I can see going to court. But if you did something that wasn't originally intended to happen (even though they may have known some would sell their copies it still was not intended to happen) then you screwed yourself and cannot expect them to go out of their way to help you.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
Can you march down to your local courthouse and file a small claims lawsuit? Your argument seems pretty solid. They would probably give in to avoid the lawsuit that might cost them thousands.
Ah yes I think I will log in and play a game now. All servers up...
All you Blizzard fanbois have had to realize that Blizzard is completely inept at making MMORPGs and that Sony has reset the bar with the gorgeous EQII.
But, hey, who am I to say you can't waste your hard-earned money on a cartooniverse game that you can't even play or register to play? I'm sure Blizzard is so freakin' cool it's good enough just to own the box and stare at the artwork.. hahaha
Yes.
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
there is no reason they couldn't store the key in an account info, a simple query would tell them if somebody is blatenetly pirating... i really cant think of any reason to make it the primary key though(or at least unique).
Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!
http://financialpetition.org/
There are clearly though many other options besides this. EverQuest, for example, doesn't even require you to buy the game in stores anymore. They'll let you purchase it at a reduced price and download the whole thing with a fresh key.
It's not quite the same thing, but there is no reason Blizzard (or EQ) in this situation shouldn't be able to generate a brand new key for him if the original key is truly defunct, which is something they can easily enforce on their end.
Never confuse volume with power.
ok dude.. your not making any sense...blizzard is wanting you to pay for your copy of WoW. if they same person sold their copy to someone and that person sells it to someone else. and again to someone else...Blizzard only gets the profit of one sale. you might as well be pirating the software. just because you paid someone for it doesnt mean its legit.
i have a copy of windows... i have a cd key... i sell it to you and then you use the same key to install the software...even though you paid for it. its still not legit. stop crying and go buy a copy of WoW. What makes you so damn special.
You would think this fight would be over the digital "stuff" you own on the game (i.e. Swords, armor, charecter, etc...). I never thought of any company actually stopping you from selling a legal, physical copy of the game. It only works against them. Imagine what would happen if cars worked like this too...... Ossus
This seems like the perfect test case for the enforceability of a shrinkwrap EULA in the hands of an ordinary consumer. Previous cases have observed that, where portions of the game require additional "agreement" clicks, such licenses can be enforced, but I have not found any case yet which states that the individual purchasor is bound by a eula he is unable to read until after the sale.
There have been cases which indicate that software licenses in general are just fine, even if they limit rights granted under ordinary copyright law. What does not appear to have been examined is whether these license agreements fall into the realm of state contract law. If such were the case, then different states might have different consumer protection rules.
But then again, I am not your lawyer, and this is just an observation, not legal advice. If you like, feel free to contact me. You can find out how in my profile.
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
It only makes sense that the key could be used once. I doubt Blizzard deletes old accounts, which means the key is still associated with an account, in use or not. If keys were transferrable, what would stop people from making 10 accounts on their own key? That gives you 10 accounts worth of bank space to store your junk, and with the mail system, moving the items is no problem. I mean, sure there is nothing stopping someone from buying 10 boxed editions of the game, but thats $400 in Blizzard's pocket, plus monthly fees. For anyone who plays MMO's, this shouldn't be any surprise at all. If you are coming from Halflife or some other online game, I could see how this could be confusing.
Dude, tuxracer rules! Oh and so does UT2003/2004 which you can also play on Linux!
Blizzard should try to get this fixed fast. Unlike most other types of games, where all the money the developer will realize is paid up front, most of the money from MMORPGs is made over the long run. By making it harder to transfer CD-keys, Blizzard is depriving themselves of the monthly fees that the user would otherwise already be paying: $20-$50 up front vs. $10-$13 a month... after a little while, the price paid at retail starts to seem pretty small, especially since many players get hooked and have difficulty quitting.
Actually, you don't want free milk in the jug your friend gave you, you want to *pay* for the milk, you just don't want to pay for the jug.
I think the solution to all of this stupidity is for the bozon game companies to stop charging an up-front purchase price for games that require a subscription.
Why don't they also charge a "disposal fee" when you cancel for crying out loud.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
a eula is designed to tell you, the end user, what you may do with the software. it is not a promise of performance or an obligation of service binding on the distributor. period.
Are you on crack? There's at least one obligation inherent in every EULA -- that you get what you paid for. That's basic contract law, amigo -- if you don't, it's illusory at best, fraud at worst. Lord knows that the language of the EULA might try to disclaim it and everything else under the sun, but not every contractual disclaimer is valid...
WoW's not OSS? How about starting such a project? Can't code? Help in other ways. Don't BUY closed crap. I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
1. Between you and seller, the seller would be in breach of contract. [i.e. a total failure of consideration - that is you did not get what you paid for]
2. Blizzard may be in breach of their license with the seller. [i.e. by not allowing the seller to transfer the game according to clause 3B]
My advice to you. Just get a refund off the seller then go buy an original copy.
Ask the seller for his account. Delete the characters, change the Credit card number, and you're set.
God spoke to me.
Blizzard has already posted about this kind of issue:
n =b lizzard-archive&t=13&p=1&tmp=1#post13
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?f
You, sir, are SOL. Sorry.
Hah.
Every MMO launched to date has a single-shot CD-key used to create an account. That means that the used game is worthless. The CD is unprotected and the contents are fairly easily obtainable. Only thing worth anything is the CD-Key, and that's good for only one use.
Yes, you could sell the game AND the account, but in WoW's case this is forbidden by EULA. You can whine all you want, but if they somehow allowed the re-use of the CD-Key, that would allow basically unlimited accounts out of one box. And whoever controls the account can play the game - box not required.
Don't buy used MMOs (returned/repackaged/'slightly used'). Any store with half a brain don't take returns of MMOs as once the key has been digged out of the box and copied down, the rest of the box/CD/Etc is quite worthless. CD-Key theft out of boxes in store shelves is a growing problem - many clueless salesdroids dont understand how the bunch of numbers on the paper is the only valuable bit of the game box, so if you buy an opened box, you risk getting a dud that may be painful to return. How do you prove you didn't use the key yourself?
Now is selling of such 'one-shot' products fine, trampling on the 'first sale' principle? That's whole another discussion. WoW is doing it just like every other game in the genre. And just about every single other game forbids sale of accounts. Others allow the sale of account + box together (only), but such trades are high-risk.
For example, in Dark Age of Camelot, whoever knows the 'secret word' inputted at character creation can at any time take ownership of the account (change PW, change any other details) by calling game billing support hotline. So even if you get the CDs, the box, the (worthless) CD-key, the user account and the password, if you don't know that you ALSO need a secret word (and you need to change it promptly by calling the company), your account can be taken back by the original owner, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Blizzard is just taking the easiest route - if you your account/password ends up in wrong hands, they wash their hands. Sale of accounts is not allowed, and basically whoever controls the username/PW 'owns' the account, and if you complain about account sale/trade issues, they just ban the account as account sales are not allowed. And yes, the box, the CD-Key and the media is totally useless and worthless once the account has been created.
HAAAA haaaaa!
The authentication key is used when the person who originally bought the game created their own account. The key is then linked to the account.
When reading section 3B of the WoW EULA, specifically the part that you mention "users the ability to transfer the physical property and "all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement" I would argue that it is the sellers responsibility to give you the account information they used to register the games authentication key with. Then you may change the billing/contact/password information within that account using blizzards account maintenance page.
At least, this is how i have always heard of transferring ownership of MMORPG accounts in the past.
Another thing about WoW. I had a problem where they refused to cancel my account for a month after I cancelled it online. They basically said that cancelling it online isn't good enough to actually cancel the account. You need to call them and make sure they close it and it probably wouldnt be a bad idea to get some form of receipt.
that is by far the lamest post i've read all week
You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
you bought the media and you got the media. If you wanted to buy the account as well, you should contact the person who sold it to you and get the username and password.
If you expected to get both media and an account for your purchase, your beef is with the seller who misled you by only selling you the media, and not with blizzard.
The only comparable analogy i can use is a phone card, or pre paid cell phone. Just because you buy a phone that used to have minutes on it doesnt mean it still has minutes on it when it gets to you used. Your beef is with the seller, not blizzard, or AT&T wireless.
your assumption that you bought both the media and the account is just plain wrong.
Way back when EQ had first come out, I bought a retail version. After a while I got tired of it (I had beta tested the game, so my burnout factor was already up) and uninstalled the game. After about a year, a friend of mine got into EQ, so I decided I'd reinstall, create a new account and play. After installing came the CD Key registration. When I entered the CD Key, I was told the key was already used. Now I had to remember my login info for my old account. Fortunately I was able to and start playing, but jeez, what a pisser.
Ultima Online had the same problem. I bought a copy off of eBay many moons ago. I had to use the original owner's account and we transfered the billing information. Origin was pretty good about the whole situation. Once the billing transfer was done I changed the password and never looked back.
With all the network problems Blizzard has been having with WoW, I wouldn't expect them to get this resolved anytime soon. Their existing customers are going to come first on this one.
Free as in speech, free as in beer, or free as in lunch?
This key is bound to an existing (probably now suspended, due to quitting) account, with billing information and personal details attached. Of course you can't use that key again.
However, you now have a perfectly legal copy of the game (even according to their EULA, which must be a first for a MMO game), without a functioning key. The solution is obvious: Have them send you a replacement key.
They lose nothing, you don't have someone else's baggage, and it should be standard procedure for when a retail key is compromised by store clerks or a 'friend'.
A friend of mine encountered the exact same problem when attempting to play Ultima Online online a couple years ago. Apparantly, the manufacturer of that game didn't show any empathy for him either, and he eventually got refunded.
Also, theres little method in enforcing this law, as one person could simply install the game, sell it on ebay, and keep playing the game using their serial number's account forevermore. Seems the only option is getting a refund then, good luck with that.
Too late. Legislation has been out of hand for a LONG time.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
A treat to eat, in a puppet that's neat!
...a discussion about EULAs came up in the thread with the Microsoft guy. My contention then was some legal dept wrote it a decade ago and much of it is boilerplate the no one reads. You're just providing an example for my argument.
:-)
In this case, it wasn't YOU that didn't read it, it was the Blizzard guys. EULAs have gotten out of hand. Many of them have language in there that doesn't pertain to anything related with the product at all. It is in there because no one wants to pay the lawyer another couple hours of billing time to review any modifications.
You are SOL and your only real option is to get your money back from where you bought the game. If you do decide to hire a lawyer and go after Blizzard, expect to pay the lawyer 1000x the difference in the used/new prices of the box -- and probably not get anywhere.
It would be fun, though, if I won the lotto. Blizzard has proven themselves nothing but a bunch of dicks over their treatment of FreeCraft/Ale and the alternative server networks. I'd love to have the money to fuck them over with their own legalese.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
To not buy from the larger stupid corporations. I understand that pirates are damaging the industry, but is that any reason to _really_ annoy the people buying their games? Ah well, who needs anything other than Commander Keen, GTA 1 & C&C Tiberian Dawn anyway?
http://www.neobard.info - wacky world of me
Doesn't this fill your heart with hate? Why don't we all call Blizzard and tell them how we feel about it?
The EULA has likely been updated since the one was printed in the box.
See if you can find it on blizzard.com or call them and ask them to send you the latest version of the EULA.
I'm pretty sure with every patch it's updated.
Maybe try out their authentication key replacement policy...
l 01117p
"Just as if the game were missing a disk or the instruction manual, a copy of the game that is missing an Authentication Key is defective. If the place of purchase is not able to provide you with a complete copy of the game, we can replace the Authentication Key per the instructions below.
Please mail in the World of Warcraft instruction manual to the P.O. box listed below. If the manual is missing, please send the CD case in its place. If you are missing both the manual and the CD case, you can send one of the game CDs. If you must do this, be sure to pack the CD as securely as possible; we are not responsible for any damage occurring from mailing the CD to us."
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=ab
why not file in small claims court. Blizzard will either send you a check right off the bat or fail to show up and default in which case you can submit the court order to their accounting department for a refund.
Could now be the time that we finally get to test this idea in court? If a company must argue that they are not legally bound by the terms of their own EULA it could set a precedent allowing customers to argue the same thing.
I speak from experience, having been a player of Diablo2 classic for about two solid years and quitting about two years ago exactly.
Blizzard routinely violates its own EULA and when it is petitioned by its account-holders/customers it will immediately force everyone to agree to a license completely ass-backwards to perhaps the more reasonable EULA the users agreed upon when installing and first entering battle.net
In a similar frame of thought, due the fact people sell virtual items advertized through various websites; Blizzard behaves as though a corporate bank. How would you like to be the holder a vast collection of distinguished data in a Blizzard safety deposit box, and then Blizzard's teller denies later what you can put into inside or denies wrongdoing and forces you to agree that Blizzard will be held responsible for its actions.
About 2.5 years ago, Bank of America began forcing its bank account holders to indemnify Bank of America Inc from financial liability should Bank of America ever "accidently" give complete access to a bank account to anyone. This happened when the Internal Revenue Service was sending "Notices" that weren't filed Liens or Levies, and Bank of America would immediatly give control of any account the IRS coveted. The Bank of America Inc AND the IRS lost the suit, but that didn't keep Bank of America from forcing existing account holders to agree to the new "POLICY" just to move their hard-earned monetary instruments through the vault. What were banks purpose, if they knowingly gave away data and forced you to indemnify them from no liability in such action?
Blizzard, although not a bank in the common law, sure as hell is committing the same. If you express any dis-regard for Blizzard, you are likely to have an invalid CD-KEY on your hands and a pilfered account by a Blizzard part-time player/employee community helper.
1. Imagine this from Blizzard's point of view. Someone calls up with your story. What do you think their position will be? Software companies must defend their best interests, and willfully going along with any request and any likely story could open them up to all kinds of abuses.
2. I may be wrong, but I don't think the lack of mention of something in a EULA implies that the buyer has such a usage right.
3. A lawsuit for such a small amount seems a little bit of an overreation. I would discuss it with the seller and see if he/she is willing to refund your money, and if not (and I would hardly expect it), just chalk it up as a lesson learned. I'm not sure how old you are, but I've lived long enough to know friends who have learned far more expensive lessons than this. I agree that it sucks, but consider yourself lucky to some extent.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
If you think you are being scammed by this company, try complaining to your local Attorney General, the FTC, the Better Business Bureau and even your congressman.
It probably will not get you your money back, but if problems with vague EULA's are better documented in various agencies, then maybe something can be done about them in the future.
Simple.
The distributor gets the cash out of the box sales.
If accounts were free, or available from online, there would be no distribution of the box version. No distributor wants to touch a game that is available online cheaper (or even at same price, but 'easier').
And stupid people won't consider games they can't buy as a box from a store. No store visibility = way less subscribers.
Only when the game is dead as a doorknob as 'store boxed version', the sale / giveaway of accounts beings.
Basically they are feeding Vivendi Universal or whoever handles the distribution. VU has to get mucho money, so VU can be bothered to put the game on shelves, on magazine pages etc.
Yes, the whole store/boxes/crap model is outdated. I'd happily pay real money for games if I could actually download them at launch day, instead of waiting for ages for the stupid boxes to ship and arrive to stores. I paid for HL2, mostly because they allowed this. Yeah, steam is 'bad' or 'crappy' or whatever, but at least it works. I got the game on launch day, not a week late (hint: I don't live in the US), and I got it at a same price as the US customers got (no extra taxes, duties, shipping costs and other crap).
I don't know that it was company policy, but it was certainly known by the store manager that they often bought and sold Phantasy Star Online, which was associated with the Dreamcast serial number and could NEVER be transferred.
Wasn't PSO for Dreamcast used to dump and play unlawful copies of commercial Dreamcast games before crackers found the MIL-CD selfboot exploit?
When you buy the box for an MMO, you're not really paying for some CDs and a crappy manual, you're paying an account creation fee. This has been the case with most MMO's for the lifetime of the genre (nearly a decade).
Your life and addiction to WoW are mutually exclusive. By not letting you play, they (Blizzard) are doing you a favor.
Blizzard owes you a refund of $49.99.
Blizzard grants the right of transfering ownership of the account including any keys. If Blizzard refuses to allow you to play then you cannot accept the EULA and byt those terms you get refunded.
In actuality Blizzard should just issue you a new key. If you feel strongly enough about this, you wil probably need to file a legal suit. You might want to contact the EFF as they might be interested because of some of the ramifications of a lawsuit over a EULA.
I doubt Blizzard would want to let this go to court as either judgement would be bad- ie either Blizzard violated thier own terms or the EULA is null and void.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Use the time honored and honed by my youth trick of just returning it to Wal-Mart and saying the disk will not load. They give you an exact copy, you keep it, or return the unopened copy at another store for money or credit. Ahhh fond memories of youthful schenanigans.
Home of the midwest loser - www.say-10.net
Games like Everquest, EQ2, WoW, Anarchy Online, etc do not require the CD to be in the drive during play.
What they do instead is use "one-time only" account keys. When you purchase a retail box (or an expansion) you are really buying the account key and thats it. The rest of the stuff in the box is fluff and unnecessary.
If I want to play EQ2, all I need is a copy of my buddie's EQ2 installation and an unused account key (say, one I copied down off the manual out of a box I opened in the store when no one was looking)
Thats the catch though. Account keys are only usable one time. You can create one, and only one, account with an account key. End of story.
SOE (Everquest, EQ2) at least makes this clear in their EULA and on the box.
This is the ultimate in copy protection, since they basically let you copy the game all you want. Want to install EQ on your dad's computer, your laptop, your work PC? Go right ahead. SOE won't care.
However, you can still only log in and use your account (linked to the account key) from one machine at any given time. Heck, SOE even takes advantage of this by encouraging people to install EQ2 on a friends PC, so they can use "Isle of Refuge" freebee demo account keys to gain trial access to the game (hopefully snaring such people into paying to upgrade to a full account later)
Account Keys are the only thing of actual value being sold when you purchase WoW, EQ2, EQ, etc.
These online games are worthless without an active account, and the gaming companies want to make sure they get their one-time purchase fee, plus recuring subscription charges, from everyone who plays the game. Subscription charges alone aren't good enough.
Really it's simply a service model with a sign-up fee in addition to the subscription fee. Heck, SOE has, in recent years, gone the route of entirely digital distribution of expansions (not sure why they didn't offer digital only versions of EQ2 itself, but they say that expansions for EQ2 will be available digital only, just like they have been for EQ1)
Don't pay for anything that doesn't include a "never before used" account key, otherwise, you aren't getting anything for your money.
I think what the EULA is covering here is if you bought a copy of the game and then you somehow destroyed your copy, you'd have a valid sign on, but no game. In this case you'd want to buy the game from another person. Notice that this is not the buying of an account, but it is the selling of the game and all game materials to another person.
Get a cow. It won't mind if you take an empty milk jug to it and demand more milk from it every day.
According to this analogy, it's against the law to refill Blizzard's jugs from your own cow. Blizzard v. bnetd.
They are charging a monthly fee. They should be distributing the software (with regular updates) for free over the 'net! Let's face it... anybody that wants to play the game already has an internet connection! Why do they insist on treating a what should be a subscription service like it was still shrinkwrapped software?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Have you tried contacting the EFF? My hunch is they're looking for a test case.
Blizzard's customer service tends to be shaky at best, however you can get a new CD-key. Blizzard has a system in place to deal with stolen CD-keys. Treat this as a situation where you CD-key was stolen or non-functional. Do not tell them anything about wanting to transfer ownership of a CD-key. Keep it simple and tell them only what they need to know. Blizzard honestly doesn't care about what their EULA or packaging says. They do things their way and if the package promised something that wasn't in the game they will tell you tough luck.
l 0641p
#1) I recently purchased a copy of World of Warcraft
#2) When I try to sign up for an account the CD-key says it is already used
#3) I have the original CD-case with the CD-key sticker on it and read on your site I can mail them in to get a new CD-key
Remember the Diablo II players are famous for their acts of stupidity. They regularly get their CD-keys and accounts stolen. So if you just play the dumb "It says someone else has my CD-key and I don't know why" and then cite their CD-key replacement policy they should do it for you. If they tell you to return it to the store just tell them "the store doesn't take returns" and "it was the only copy I could find."
You may not be too keen on deceit, but honestly this is the only way blizzard will do anything. While they are fine about jerking around people who buy used copies of the game they will be much less eager to screw over someone who they think bought a new copy of the game that doesn't work.
More information about the process:
http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=aal
Read the Terms of Use. The EULA allows the transfer of the GAME, but nowhere does it allow the transfer of the SERVICE.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=abl 01115p
I've heard the same thing happen with City of Heroes. They state explicitly that if the "scratch lottery cover" is in any way compromised over the secret key that you're screwed.
The thing that ticks me off is having to pay (monthly fee * 1.5 to 3) to buy the game up front. They should give you either the game for free or a discounted monthly fee for six months so that you recover the cost of the game.
Fortunately for me, Best Buy was running Deluxe DVD Collector's Edition Supper Spiff City of Heroes for $30, the day after I bought it Fry's put it on sale for $20, Best Buy gave me a rebate so I'm happy.
When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
I think anyone who tries to use a software product in a way that the publisher doesn't approve of (i.e. software pirates), should be classified as an "enemy combatant" and held in internment camps indefinitely without due process of law.
Anyone who disagrees just hates Americans because they envy our freedoms.
The EULA is not a contract. It's a license. It states the terms under which you may be allowed to use the copyrighted work.
The EULA does not prohibit the original purchaser from transferring the medium, registration key, etc. In fact, this is specifically allowed.
However, the EULA does not say that the key can be used more than once--by the original purchaser or by a secondary purchaser.
If the original purchaser were to sell the whole ball of wax prior to ever having used the key, then the secondary purchaser would find that he has exactly the same rights and priveledges as the original purchaser.
And, if the original purchaser were to sell the whole shootin' match after using the key, then the secondary purchaser would find that he has exactly the same rights and priveledges as the original purchaser. Namely, a key that cannot be used a second time.
At this point, the only way that the original purchaser can effectively exercise the right of first sale is by transferring the single account that is allowed to be created using the key.
And that's specifically disallowed in the EULA.
So, your legal rights are preserved. You just have no legal way to effectively exercise them.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Now you in the EU can experence the wonderful problems of server crashes, lag, server reboots with less then a one minute warning, Patches that cause more bugs, Long waits for a GM (12 hours or more), GM's with a GOD complex, GM's that are only online between 9am and 6pm PST, CSR phone reps only avilible between 9am and 6pm PST M-F, and the general attitude from Blizzard that the customer is always WRONG.
I happen to read the EULA for Max Payne, and it said according to the agreement, the ONLY (the word they specifically used) thing I could use the physical CD for was as an archival backup of the software. Sadly, the game required me to have the CD in the drive while playing it, so essentially the only way to play the game is either to bread the EULA or to install a NOCD crack, which would of course be against the DMCA's anti-circumvention provision.
And the industry wonders why EULA's are ignored.
It is quite hillarious:
A. Rules Related to User Names. Each user will select a user name for his or her character, or allow the World of Warcraft software to select the name for him or her. Additionally, users may form "guilds" and such guilds will be required to choose a name for the guild. When you choose a user name, create a guild, or otherwise create a label that can be seen by other players of World of Warcraft, you must abide by the following guidelines as well as the rules of common decency. If Blizzard Entertainment, in its sole discretion, finds such a label to be offensive, it reserves the right to change the name, remove the label and corresponding chat room, and/or suspend your use of World of Warcraft.
In particular, you may not use:
1. Names of another person with the intent to impersonate that person;
2. Names which incorporate 'swear' words or which are otherwise offensive, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
3. Names subject to the rights of any other person without authorization;
4. Names of popular culture or media personalities;
5. Names that are trademarks, or registered trademarks of Blizzard Entertainment or other companies);
6. Names of religious deities or figures;
7. Names of characters from Blizzard Entertainment's Warcraft products, including character names from the Warcraft series of novels; or
8. Names related to drugs, narcotics, or criminal activity, including references to drug substances; or
9. Name comprised of partial or complete sentences (e.g., "Inyourface", "Welovebeef", etc);
10. Names comprised of pure gibberish (eg, "Asdfasdf", "Jjxccm", "Hvlldrm");
11. Names that refer to pop culture icons or personas (e.g. "Britneyspears", "Austinpowers", "Batman")
12. Names that utilize "Leet" or "Dudespeak" (e.g., "Roflcopter", "xxnewbxx", "Roxxoryou")
13. Name that incorporate titles. The term "Titles" as used herein shall include 'rank' titles (e.g. , "CorporalTed," or "GeneralVlad") and/or fantasy titles (e.g., "KingMike", "LordSanchez")
Additionally, you may not use a misspelling or an alternative spelling to circumvent the name restrictions listed above, nor can you have a "first" and "last" name that, when combined, violate the above name restrictions.
I especially like the dudespeak one and "lordsanchez"
My wife WILL be a lawyer very soon, and she knows this stuff. So we go to purchase a copy of TurboTax at BestBuy because they are advertising that you get Quicken 2005 and Quickbooks 2005 for free! Not seeing the fine print on the box, we didn't realize you had to first purchase those two software titles seperately, then get the rebates from within the TurboTax box and mail in all this shit to get your refunds for Quicken and Quickbooks. Being thoroughly frustrated and not wanting to go through the hassle of doing all this, we decided to return the software. After all, the back of the BestBuy receipt said no return of video game software, DEFECTIVE SOFTWARE, DVDs, etc etc could be made. Notice that we never even loaded TurboTax onto a computer, never opened the disk sleave even, so TurboTax was NOT defective software, nor did it fit any other categories on the back of the receipt for "things that can't be returned."
After a lengthy argument with the all-knowing college kids manning the Customer Service desk at our local Best Buy we gave up. Best Buy obviously wasn't going to do anything - it would be a waste of our time to even continue to pursue that avenue (even after calling the 1-800 Best Buy # like we did and got the same response), and small claims court - which is where we'd have to file our legal complaint - would cost $40+ just in filing fees, not to mention all the time wasted down that path. So basically, unless you can get your money back from the person you bought it from, you're probably fucked.
Companies knowingly write these EULA's and Terms of Sale for us individual consumers to intentionally protect themselves. If they're overeaching their bounds, they know that if you waste enough of your own time and money to raise such a stink about it, it's still cheaper to eventually pay you off. And if you think class action lawsuits are the way to go, think again. It takes a lawyer (or several) to organize that endeavor, and even then it's gotta be worth THEIR efforts to push the big companies for a big payout. So Best Buy and Blizzard are just protecting their interests as much as possible, knowing that if you really freak out about it they can just pay you off, keep their rules in place, and continue to screw the majority of their consumers in the interest of company profit margins. It makes sense, even if it's not at all fair. You would do the same if you ran those companies.
This looks to be the way of the future with multiplayer online gaming. I'll use this information as a warning. From now on, I will treat the physical media as only a convenience feature, and I would treat the item as such. What this means is that absent of a valid, unused registration code, the discs are only worth the cost of the printing, since you'll still have to go out and buy the license anyway.
Perhaps Blizzard is willing to sell you a new code at a discount, since you won't be needing the install media. But I doubt it, since we're talking about Blizzard here. This seems to me to be a stupid policy, since the game is a monthly service you pay for, no? Why don't they just raise the monthly fees and invest in some more infrastructure? Why would the reg codes even matter when you technically can't "pirate" the service?
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
If their EULA says this can happen, they are legally obligated to make it happen (they wrote the contract). Call them back, read the EULA to them. Then fax it if they don't believe you (or scan and e-mail). Then when all is said and done, if they cannot PHYSICALLY change the data (and that's bs, because all we are taking about is some data on some server) they can give you a free cd key. It has to be free so they honor their EULA.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
I would look FTC for help. You obviously do not agree to the EULA because Blizzard will not honor your right to use the software.
.053 minutes of a good lawyers time :-)
FTC Complaint Form This may help you getting a legal investigation started.
I do not think that first sale doctrine applies because the software isn't purchased it is licensed. I do however think that you have a breach of contract claim. Reference the folliwing article Having said that first sale doesn't apply, I have not been able to find an example where this has been tried in a court.
IANAL. This is not legal advice. In face it isn't even supposed to look like legal advice or in any way seem like it might be seeming to be posing as legal advice. Heck for the price of a used video game you can purchase
This is definitely one of the stupidest posts Slashdot has ever seen....
;) By the way, you do not get free refills of the jug if you are the original owner. Not unless you pay for a lifetime of free re-fills. Again, the original poster is just for lack of a better word, insane.
If you check the terms of use page linked in the OP, you can plainly see near the top:
1. Establishment of Your World of Warcraft Account.
A. You may establish one (1) user account ("Account") with which to play World of Warcraft by accessing Blizzard Entertainment's proprietary on-line service ("Service"), pursuant to the terms, conditions and restrictions contained in this Agreement.
as well as section 1-E:
E. Blizzard Entertainment does not recognize the transfer of Accounts between individuals.
I don't see how this person has any right whatsoever to have a new account registered for a CD key that already has an account registered with it.... it just doesn't make ANY sense. By that train of thought, one person could buy the game then hand it along to every person he knows, letting each new person register a new account and bypassing the purchase price of the game itself.... no sense whatsoever.
I do think relating it to buying a milk jug and expecting free refills on an empty jug is pretty funny though.
Actually, *copyright* law is what does this. The EULA is what makes you buy a new version of windows every time you upgrade your computer. It's informative to note that this is not the standard in *any* industry except computing, and even there it's specific to a few players with the clout to get away with it. In any other industry, a company that tried to irrevocably bind a retail product like that would be laughed out of existence.
You might try going downtown and filing a civil lawsuit seeking the retail cost of the game, plus court costs, as damages. Chances are they'll simply settle since you're too small of a fry to bother fighting with.
"Likewise, there are no 'politics', just engineering." - 1984 USENET Post from a Microsoft engineer about working at MS
You should post a link to the whole article instead of trying to elicit stupid chuckles from the peanut gallery with your dumb off-context quoting.
Let me clarify a bit...
Each key allows you to create 1 and only 1 account.
Each account allows you to create as many characters as you want on any server. (There may be a limit but I don't know it.)
So to answer your question, there is nothing to stop you from doing exactly what you've described. In fact, I have two characters on the same server and one on another. I can easily mail money/items back and forth between chars on the same server.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
...unless they were using the money spent for time played to keep it running smoothly and cheater-free; I'm not a big MMOG player these days so I'm not quite keen on if it has an effect versus games that don't charge you for time played, like Counter-Strike or SOCOM II. That said, SOCOM II is teh utter sux in reliability.
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
First of all this post doesnt even deserve the merit of a response. No offense, but you NEVER EVER BUY AN MMORPG THAT IS USED. NEVER. Unless the person gives you a copy of his username and password. No one should even be selling it! I thought this would be common knowledge by now. This article should be more about the lesson this guy learned by doing that, than the EULA. Who cares about the EULA, this is how MMORPGS work, you are getting into some pretty vague specifics to justify an inane purchase/decision in the first place!
Okay, the clause in the EULA says that you CAN sell the game to another end user. The folks saying otherwise are apparently wearing blinders. The likelihood here is that Blizzard's legal department used their standard boilerplate for the EULA, and didn't realize some of the issues there were going to be with software keys vs. accounts. I would guess that the folks whom you have spoken to so far really dont *know* the terms in the EULA, just what they've been trained to dole out to users. The legal folks probably hope that this doesn't get back to the higher-ups, as I'd guess that some folks could be in for termination if the bosses realize the standard EULA was used. The bosses probably never intended for WoW to be transferred between end users. You'll be fighting an uphill battle to get to someone who actually is willing to go through the EULA, and chase this. A court case? You could, but seems like a lot of time and effort. I might try e-mailing someone known to be high up in the blizzard food-chain about this, first. Is it worth your effort to fight through this in order to have saved $5 or $10 on the retail box? Nope. Is it worth it to fight for the principal of holding a corporate entity accountable to the end users? Very well could be. --Ikarius
Bingo. You get a license to do whatever you want with the coasters (within the limitations of the EULA). Sadly the content of the coasters does jack and shit without a personal account to the WoW gameservers (the service). Which you cannot transfer. Buying used MMOs is considered stupid due to this little fact, and known to all longtime players of the genre.
You just don't allow the game to be downloaded (not at first, anyway). Then the distributors get first sell profits like they normally do. Distributors never get money from sales of used games anyway. (It's why they keep trying to get it outlawed).
Although if you make the used game market viable by activating new accounts then you would potentially diminish new games sales. Though I couldn't say that would make THAT much of an impact if the game normally retails for $50, the used copy goes for $30 and you charge $20 to reactivate the key. Or even charge the guy $25 to reactivate the key so that you're still fulfilling your end of the bargain, but making a disincentive for buying used product.
They don't. Before courts, the accepted method of resolving disputes was violence. Courts are a replacement for the use of force to get what you feel is rightfully yours.
The physical disks and documentation are owned by the person that bought it, and can be transferred. It's interesting that Blizzard agreed and put this in the actual EULA. It's forward-thinking, imho.
But the inability to transfer the account is conflicting.
The best thing to do is to get the original account information, and an agreement (contract) with the original seller that he won't try to commandeer the account or release the information about it, and that such an action would harm you.
Most people would have no problem with giving you the information and agreeing to do that, although they probably won't go through the trouble of sending you a notarized document after the fact. Just get it in an email with the agreement that they won't try to retract the account or give out info, and you won't run into any issues.
You should have called tech support and say, I bought the game and it won't let me log in. I can fax you a picture of the "key". I don't know what happened? Someone is using my key.
That or you should get the key/account from the seller or get your money back.
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=abl 01115p
$10 for them to send you a new auth key. Very simple.
First, I don't play MMORPGs because I don't want to be at the mercy of a game developer who can screw me over six ways till Sunday if they choose to.
Second, I don't have time to get addicted to electronic crack.
Third, I'm too much of a cheap bastard to pay a monthly fee.
You also bring up the EULA. EULAs (assuming they are valid at all) are contracts. The sale of your copy of the game was between you and the person who sold it to you, not between you and Blizzard, so I don't see how you would have a contract with Blizzard.
This is nothing new afaik, you need the login info. Usually when MMOG acounts are sold, they are sold as is, once you obtain the login info you simply change the preferences - payment details, name, etc. In other words, edit the exisiting account to your liking, don't try to make a new one.
I was planning on installing WOW on my laptop so I could play away from home but now it sounds like I won't be able to activate that copy.
I can completely understand only allowing a key to be logged in once but only allowing a key to be activated once seems wrong.
Now maybe I'm misunderstanding because obviously there has to be some way to reactivate to handle drive crashes/new computers/etc. Maybe it only allows you to reactivate with the original registration info?
I logged into my account and I can change every piece of information except my name.
I can see blizzard's justification. If they allow the game to be transferred to a new owner and the old owner calls up and says hey my Key has been stolen and I can't play the game what is blizzard to do? They have no proof that the new seller purchased the copy from the old server so it could become a nightmare for them.
That being said, it's a bummer that they didn't create a way to deactivate a key by the current owner so that the new owner could reactivate it. In that instance, being that the current owner needed a user/pass to deactivate it I believe it's a safe transaction and blizzard can start collecting another $14/month.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Seems to be an issue of a terms of service. Registration and accounts relate to the service part of the game, specifily access to Blizzard's online game servers.
The normal EULA thing gets more confusing in the case of MMORPGs because there's the "good" component of it, the software you buy, and the "service" component, the game servers you play on. It's an online service like any other, and does require a monthly fee to use.
So while the EULA may not be enforcable, I don't see that it's really teh question here. The question is if the ToS is enforcable. Does Blizzard have the right to refuse you service, even if you own a copy of the software?
Is that you, Bill? Why don't you create an account instead of posting as an anonymous cowherd, Mr. Gates!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
The right to transfer ownership of the tangible expression of a copyrighted work is fundamental to our system of intellectual property ownership: 17 U.S.C. sec. 109 (2000). I don't quote this provision to suggest that Blizzard is breaking the law, simply that the right to alienate (essentially a fancy legal term for "sell") your copy of a copyrighted work is enshrined in United States law (and in fact, is generally recognized throughout the world).
So what is Blizzard doing here? It is denying the initial purchaser of the game the right to sell his or her copy (who am I kidding? His) copy of the game in the open marketplace. The initial purchaser of the game agreed to Blizzard's End User Licensing Agreement (EULA) when he first started playing. (Of course, the legal enforceability of these EULAs is somewhat murky -- different states have different laws, although UCITA is the most common attempt to make EULAs enforceable.) Blizzard's argument is that it and its customer entered into an enforceable contract. Both sides gave consideration and both sides agreed to perform certain actions and to give the other side certain rights in exchange for either money or a service provided.
Now Blizzard (at least according to the poster) is attempting to renege on its side of the bargain, while still (presumably) insisting that the purchaser abide by all terms and conditions.
A couple of additional thoughts:
First, don't argue with front-line customer service. Get in touch with Blizzard corporate headquarters or other supervisory personnel. Recognize that, while you are probably correct, it's likely an issue of first impression under the new WoW system and as a pioneer, you're likely to get a slow response.
Second, make sure that the initial owner of the game took the proper steps to terminate his account before he sold it to you.
Third, recognize that Blizzard is perfectly correct to be suspicious of someone claiming that, simply because you have the key, it should terminate an existing account. Respect their view on this because it's a world of hurt for them if they wrongly start terminating accounts. I can easily foresee them asking someone five times "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO PERMANENTLY DELETE THIS ACCOUNT? ARE YOUR SURE YOU'RE SURE?" and then getting a complaint the next day that their account isn't working. They really are in a no-win situation.
Fourth, while yes, I am a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer. Nothing in this post should be construed as providing legal advice.
Finally, Blizzard needs to get on the ball and recognize when they are wrong. This sounds like a cluck-up. (But then again, first line support people aren't supposed to be interpreting legal documents.) I'm guessing this is more a matter of getting this issue in front of someone with the authority to make it right.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
People should read the F* question. :-)
:-)
It seems to me that the majority of the replies have totally missed the point of the question. The question wasn't "would it be reasonable for Blizzard to prohibit reselling?" The question was whether they were in violation of the contract implied in their own EULA. The EULA specifically said that the game could be sold. Maybe that's not what it should have said, but that's what it said. Since they are the ones who wrote the EULA, my understanding is that any ambiguity gets interpreted in your favor, except that I don't even see any ambiguity here.
I think you have a small claims case.
Of course, if I were a lawyer, I wouldn't be posting free legal advice here. You've already paid me everything that my opinion on the matter is worth.
I haven't hit a limit at this point. I'm not sure what the official limit is but I have to assume unlimited for the time being so 1 or 10 accounts still gives you unlimited chars per server.
The issue here isn't creating a new account anyway, it's simply transfer of ownership of the single account.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
So, according to this logic, if my computer dies and I buy a new one I should not be able to install my very expensive software on this new computer? That isn't a good idea. There is no way I will pay a few hundred dollars for software and not be able to install it if I ever get a new computer. The lifespan of modern computers isn't that high. People upgrade their computers way too much for a scheme like this to work.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
Even before the server load issues and not releasing more copies to retail until it's fixed, I heard about the game being "it." and almost did buy it on more than one occassion. Then I remembered "It's still Blizzard; they make good games, but the people in charge of 'taking care of business' are still shysters and snakes to me."
No sig for you!!
You should have told them that you bought a new copy of WoW, and the key is used...goddamn pirates and their keygen programs....
And when you buy sheets for your bed, you shouldn't be able to put them on other beds, without going to jail.
And when you buy a suit with two pairs of pants, you should go to jail if you try to wear one of those pairs of pants with a different jacket.
And if you buy a book, it should explode and blind anyone else who reads it.
This seems like the perfect test case for the enforceability of a shrinkwrap EULA in the hands of an ordinary consumer.
Actually this could backfire, since the user is arguing that Blizzard is not supporting part of their EULA. If the court orders Blizzard is responsible for creating a system in which they are compliant with their EULA they give strength to the contractual nature of the EULA. (Blizzard is responsible for complying with the agreed upon terms in the EULA)
However, the user could argue that Blizzard is not supporting section 109 of copyright law, which allows the user to sell or transfer their license, and not worry about the whole EULA controversy.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
You don't need to have a cd to run the game. I could install via a friend and use my account- very useful. The reason blizzard is doing what you're complaining about is because this is creating an extra account, presumably leaving the other one active. If you want to sell and change the game, sell the game and the account that came with it- delete the characters, do whatever you want... but the account is bound to the game. The CDs aren't really needed anymore.
- dshaw
I would have assumed that there's no way to buy a used key and get it to work. Similarly, I would have suggested that you just get the account name and password from the person wanting to sell their copy, but if you can't change the basic user information (which seems strange as people have been known to change their address, telephone number and even name) I guess there's currently no way to get an account except to buy a new retail box.
I think part of the problem is that EULAs in general say that you simply do not own the software that you have purchased. You may own the physical medium the software exists upon, but not the software itself. So, though the WoW EULA says that the rights and so on may be transferred to another owner, you're not really being transferred anything anyway. :)
Basically, I'm seeing that you've found something that Blizzard didn't think of, and now you're getting the runaround from customer service while they either 1) figure out what to do, or 2) hope you'll go away. In the end, though, Blizzard will want you to buy a new copy of the game... which is dumb, because if you buy it from anywhere other than directly from Blizzard, they already have the money for their game when they sold it to a distributor.
With Final Fantasy XI, when I sold my copy I had to call in to customer service and have my billing info stripped from the account.
I had to leave the account active and send along my login and password with the used game. The person who bought the game had to login with my login and password and then enter thier billing info.
So maybe you can't use the code to create a new account, but you can log in to the existing account the seller had and then reactivate the subscription by setting up your billing info...
I applaud Blizzard for this.
/no/ idea how to play, and get everyone dead until they are identified and ostracized.
Selling of characters is a really annoying thing in MMO games because you end up with a reasonably large group of people at lvl 60 who have
There are three scenarios here:
1) This guy is trying to buy a character/account off someone, and guarantee that person can't take it back. Blizzard won't participate. He's trying to raise a stink to challenge Blizzard on it, in the hopes of pressuring them.
2) This guy bought the game used for a discount, because the full $50 was too steep. This means he's paying his first month, instead of getting the free one. That puts him at $15 out of pocket, meaning his maximum savings is $35 (if the game were free.) If it's free, he has nothing to bitch about. If it cost him $35, he's a moron for not just buying new. So, really there is a sliding scale between "not much money" and "you're a moron" that centers around $17.50. Frankly, there isn't much incentive to buy this game used. If that 17.50 is really worth it to you, you probably can't afford the lawsuit you propose (which you would lose anyway) - if it is the principle of the thing, you need to seriously reevaluate how you pick your fights, and get over it.
3) He bought the game at full price from a friend who decided he didn't like it. If this is the case, his friend screwed him and they need to sort it out.
It has always been stated that accounts can't be transferred, and you can only make one account per key. Blizzard even posted on their site that they will not be selling extra key's (probably because their publisher would have a fit.) It's this guys fault for not paying attention.
In any case, so far Blizzard has taken a hard line against people exploiting the game - both challenging them in the real world, and fixing the exploit in the game. This is just another sign of that, and I'm glad they are doing it.
That post is irrelevant. It deals with KEYS bought online. The reason they don't want that is that people could just warez the game, then buy a used key. Which would cut their earnings, and they'd end up with a load of unsold boxes.
The poster *has* the original game, and he also has a *valid* CD-key that is *not* in use (It has been, but that is irrelevant).
Tell me *one* good reason Blizzard shouldn't unfuck this?
I'd bet that this all stems from a design flaw in their database. The CD key is almost certainly a Unique non-nullable value in their database. Their policy is not to remove users from the system and therfore it probably isn't designed in such a way to make that simple (i.e. no relational integrity with cascading deletes, etc). So if you try to register with the new key, they don't know what to do with the key for the previously existing and undeleteable account.
So what happened in the end is that their lawyers and their developers didn't actually talk about the EULA in any depth. The clause, while perfectly reasonable, doesn't seem to have any meand of implementation in their real world system.
I suspect if enough people complain they'll put some hack in place for customer service to resolve these problems. But they'll probably create a few cranky people in the mean time.
Seems to me that a good way to avoid this mess in the first place is to give away the software in stores, and then have an activation cost for the first month. Then who cares who has what CD. To create a new account, you still have to pay them for it when you activate the account.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
3B. You may permanently transfer ownership of the Game and all parts thereof, and all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement, to another by physically transferring the CD-ROM, all original packaging, and all Manuals or other documentation associated with the Game, and by removing from all of your home or personal computers and destroying any remaining materials concerning the Game in your possession or control, provided the recipient agrees to the terms of this License Agreement. The transferor (i.e., you), and not the Licensor, agrees to be solely responsible for any taxes, fees, charges, duties, withholdings, assessments, and the like, together with any interest, penalties, and additions imposed in connection with such transfer.
It seems like the person you got it from did not destroy their account. Granted, Blizzard doesn't allow for this, but the EULA does state that this should have been done prior to tranferring ownership.
we ordered two copies from blizzard's site. only 1 arrived in the package.
when we called, they hemmed and hawed and acted like they had proof there was two in the box "because the order said 2."
after much back and forth they agreed, in an email to us, to send another copy and some other assorted goodies, so we agreed by email.
now we get an email back asking us to explain what the problem was in the first place.
*sigh*
i haven't written them back yet; they are on the blacklist *stamps blizzard's forehead*
Lottery ticket analogy:
Person A buys a lottery ticket. It happens to be a winner and he claims the winnings.
He then sells the ticket to person B. Person B knows the ticket has been used.
I don't think person B is entitled to win again using the same ticket. However, he does own the ticket.
own3d!!1!
you would have sucked at WoW anyway.
I had a friend run into the same problem. The issue is on the account info screen, it only allows you to modify certain fields, which does not include the ones you need to match CC info to account info.
He called Blizzard and they changed it for him.
IAAL, too. I hope you are lying about being a lawyer though, since your research skills are lacking. I'll leave it to you to find ProCD Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir. 1996), reversing 908 F.Supp. 640 (W.D. Wis. 1996). BTW, I'm guessing you're a law student, not a lawyer (yet). Am I right?
You may permanently transfer ownership of the Game and all parts thereof
It seems pretty clear to my reading, there is one CD key, and one account and Blizzard gives you permission to sell that account along with everything else, but if you're not happy with that - too bad.
If you don't want someone else's stinky account or you don't trust them - too bad.
Ok, so it's not like some other games, and it would be preferable to have it like other games, but it's not that uncommon either...
---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
Does the purchase of WoW come with a month free of service? If so, then Blizzard might be right in denying the recipient from getting a new account from a used copy.
If not, I think it would be better if the game itself was free, where people could download it online and pay only the monthly fee, or buy it at the store and get one month free ( that would cost maybe another $5 for the fancy manual, etc. ) but would not have the account itself transferrable, so if you were to sell the game you'd just be selling the manuals and box.
The only problem I do see with this though is limiting stock, much like the problem they have now. If this was freely downloadable, it's harder to control the creation of accounts. Although you could prevent the creation of accounts after a threshold, people who bought the box from the store would be pissed because they paid for a month already and cannot get online.
Man, I'm really glad this crap gets posted, and my (somewhat) interesting submissions get rejected.
i have a laptop & desktop computers
:
would this prevent me from installing wow on both computers ?
i dont want to play the 2 at the same time (wow would not authorize since i presume i can only log once on the server), that's just for convenience
the desktop for great video and laptop when im not at home
The world belongs to those who get up early. - I'm far from being the king of Earth then
Why can you sell the box/disk/manual? Lets say you are tired of playing the game and want to liquidate it. Your friend down the street still enjoys the game but his CD was destroyed when his younger sister threw it out the window on the freeway. So he buys your CD. But he still owns his 'activated' account.
Truth is, if you want to buy the game, buy an account and borrow the install CD from a friend.
Blizzard did no wrong here. I was surprised when I read the post and did not see any one posting below indicating how stupid this was. Similar to buying MS Word - you aren't buying the program on the CD, you are buying a liscence and the CD facilitates your use of the liscence. It's really not hard to understand, unethical, illegal, or unusual.
Yesterday, your sig stated that the number of disabled was something like 89 %. Now it is quite a bit less. What gives?
don't give a crap about CD-keys, but GIVE the game away. Make it easy for people to get copies (downloadable, torrents), heck provide the user with a utility that actually copies the game.
They _want_ it to be popular. Spread the disease, get more people playing and keep up a good facade to the public by giving the software away.
You don't make your money on the item being sold, you make it on the monthly fees! It would have made sense to me, more players = more monthly fees = more money.
This is absolutely not a good test case for unenforceability. Unenforceability is a defense for a consumer who does not have the option to view a contract. It does not apply to the drafter of the contract. Generally, if you are the drafter of an agreement you can't go back and say that it is unfair. Dude, your a first year attorney, don't post on slashdot (or anywhere else) with your company bio unless you are dead sure of what you are talking about and you are authorized to do so.
He said he read the EULA. Be real, we all know that no one has ever read the EULA...
I remember reading a couple of years ago about Windows activation codes. They were supposed to prevent piracy. But the problem is... what happens if someone GENERATES a "valid key" and the purchaser won't be able to registrate his copy?
And I think this is just what happened to you, my friend.
And yes, I think it sucks. You should ask for a refund.
You have enough sense of legal jargon to read between the lines, section this sub-section that, but you dont have the sense to not buy a used MMO without the account thats attached to the CD key?(Even though I think they dont allow selling accounts.)
You also actually Read the EULA!
Whats wrong with you; If you did this to prove a point kudos to you and good luck.
If anything you could sue them for not stating that by reselling the game and contents of the box the one time use CD-Key would loose it's value after being used.
(When you buy a car and register it; does your registration transfer over to the new owner when you sell the car?)[I Might be wrong, honestly I dont know; but I dont think it does.]
When you go to the web page to create your accont, you spend one authentication key to create an account login.
: SuperDude P:sex
Example-
XXJP5-12345-OICUP0-NOTREAL-23492--->L
The account login name for your key was created by the person before you.
The account key on your box has already been converted into an account such as SuperDude. The login doesn't get undone just because someone handed you the box and CDs in the real world. Get that account name and password from the person who resold the box to you. It won't affect in-game character names. No matter what the EULA says, once you get the login and password you can login.
So you aren't the original owner of that key/login-password combo. How can Blizzard tell?They'll be none the wiser and even if they knew, they don't really care where the $14.95 a month is coming from, it beats losing a customer. Granted, this is gray ops- if they caught wind of it they'd be within their EULA to turn off the account altogether. Yeah, they could maybe track IPs but not reasonably give how much people move around etc. If no one makes a fuss, there won't be a problem.
I didn't notice in in the message if the original poster every tried to request or purchase a new Key from Blizzard. I am pretty sure that for a fee Blizzard would be happy to sell someone a new key. I would believe that, regardless of EULA, the buisness model in place here is one that charges the end user not only a monthly fee but also a set up fee, which is disguised as the cost for purchasing the game. This may very well be a violation of the EULA, but I can't really comment on that.
Have the guy who sold it to you give you his login and password so you can login and change the password, thus making it fully yours.
duh
go into a store, box cutter concealed in hand, open WoW box, write down Auth-Key, go home, sign up.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
You can do that. I know based on experience. As you noted, the two computers wouldn't be able to play at the same time.
I mean, I'm completely against software piracy.. but this is simply crossing the line.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
when you install it ask if you already have an account. so you can install it on as many computers as you want, as long as you have an account to play. and you can only login from 1 computer per account.
Sec. 13 - "This License Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of California without regard to conflicts of law provisions, and any dispute arising hereunder shall be resolved in accordance with the law of California. You agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding by one of the parties against the other shall be commenced and maintained in any state or federal court located in the State of California, County of Los Angeles, having subject matter jurisdiction with respect to the dispute between the parties."
Somebody really needs to teach you guys the BASICS of the US legal system...The key is just a number. Why can't Blizzard just make up a new one for you? You bought they game, they have to give you a working key number.
At one point, the Blizzard representative likened my request to buying an empty milk jug and returning to the store to demand more milk for free so I can use the jug.
A more apt analogy would be when an authentication key creates a login, it's like a block of wet clay being fired into a specific clay pot. They don't have a method for turning a fired pot back into wet clay and changing it into what you want.
But what's wrong with using their existing login name anyway? It might not be a name you like but it has no affect on in-game characters. Assuming the person you bought it is honest not to change anything right away, login with their login and password, change the password to something only you know, and the account is as good as yours.
Yes, the entire operation is shady and imperfect, which is partly why Blizzard prefers to completely wash their hands of the matter. Especially because money is changing hands between people they have no business relationship with.
...that you have to be a lawyer to actualy get to play this game. Blizzard seems to take matters a LOT too seriously, which consequently annoys players (their clients).
The game seems OK, but all the troubles associated to it turn me off. I would never feel I am part of that world, part of the story or part of anything associated to it, knowing the company is working against me to protect their IP rights and that my account is 100% under their control, with no regard for the fun I am supposed to have playing the game. Instead, they worry so much about piracy that they seem to forget it's supposed to be FUN.
Fuck that. I would never pay for this. I wouldn't give one cent to feel I'm a test dummy and that the hours I spend playing this game are Copyright Blizzard.
You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
You should just tell Blizzard that your account was stolen and you want to get it back, and have the original CD with CD key as proof of ownership.
I'll pay full retail price. Should be worth a lot more than that in small claims court.
(j/k)
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
ok so you buy your new shiny new software read the EULA, and it's sold to you "AS IS". Wait a second, this isn't a used car. nor is it a used piece of software. When I buy something new I don't expect them to tell me that it's "as is", and that they are "non-withstanding" to any defects "not responsible for damage to your computer caused by use of this software". WTF?
If the brakes go out on my car, and cause me to be in an accident (and the car is new) who do you think is going to be responsible? me or the car manufacturer?
If I buy a gallon of milk and it gets me or my family sick, who is going to be responsible? me or the dairy farmer?
if the ESA and BSA want to make loads of money selling software they need full culpability for said software. since they are unwilling to accept responsibility I have chosen to use free software where I can at least help fix problems that are found.
and if it does break my computer I'd bet they'd be more help figuring out WHY it broke my computer instead of saying "it's not our fault our software sucks, and breaks some computers"
WTF moderators? You just feel like being jerks today? This is insightful (modulo a few typos I missed on my 20th preview), and when I started posting it, nobody had bothered to make this point. By modding me down, you reduce the number of posts I can make. Just leave the post alone if you think it's redundant at zero.
I had no expectation that a used copy of the game would be such a problem. After all, even all of Blizzard's previous games (Warcraft 2, Starcraft, BroodWar) had keys that could be used and passed on while maintaining the reasonable restriction that only one instance of the key could be used at any one time. (I have never bought or played Warcraft 3, so I do not know about it.) In fact, I bought my copy of Starcraft used and never had any trouble with it.
First off, to assume a MMORPG would have the same mechanisms involved as far as keys and such go is silly. They are NOT the same.
This person has obviously not played an MMORPG before. If I have a key, create an account and then, say, DEACTIVATE THE ACCOUNT... how could you expect to buy that box and use the same account KEY to create a new account? It's never worked that way in MMO's, and there's a reason for it. They keys are individual identifiers and they cannot be re-used. Sorry you're stupid and bought a used copy. Blizzard rocks and WoW is the best MMO I've played to date ( which is saying something, I've done most MMO's since EQ at least for a beta ).
...why didn't the seller give you the username and password for the account originally created with that CD key? Nevermind that the EULA specifically states that you aren't allowed to transfer accounts. Yes, I realise that there's a double standard there saying that the media can be sold, but the account can't be transferred. That's where the real ambiguity in the EULA is. It should be that both can be transferred, or neither. (Personally, I'm for neither, since level 60 noobs are no fun).
In any case, if you never got the username and password because the seller are still playing the game on that account then you have no leg to stand on, and you were pretty well ripped off. Blizzard has repeatedly stated they aren't going to sell CD keys alone. If they just forgot to give the username and password to you and they aren't playing anymore, you should be able to get the information from them and just use the existing account. This is a violation of the EULA, though. See previous comment about EULA ambiguity.
The EULA expressly gives permission to transfer all rights and priveleges. The service is a privilege or a right. Either one.
www.kitchengeek.com -- Nosh for
Wah-wah-wah-waaaaaaaa. That's what you get for being a cheap assed bastard. Go out and buy a new copy of the program and I don't really care if they're all that hard to get. You could have pre-ordered.
And no, there were no characters or items on the account and I actually lost a couple of dollars doing it. I sold it to a guildmate so his wife could play, he couldn't track down any more copies in his area. I even have the original box and serial number.
Bleh!
Square has the same problem with FFXI,
only its worse, if you let your account go inactive for > 3 months, you're screwed period, you can't even recreate your account.
Since the parent didn't provide proof, here's the relevant passage (it's the fourth paragraph):
"SOFTWARE Backup or Archiving. After You install the SOFTWARE into the permanent memory of a computer, You may keep and use the original disk(s) and/or CD-ROM (the "Storage Media") only for backup or archival purposes."
...and it doesn't hold water. The monthly fee is for maintenance of the systems and resources you continue to use and the base code still cost something to develop. I've seen places that give away the client code for free and wasn't that impressed (Lineage, Jumpgate) compared to something that cost money like EQ or Dark Age of Camelot.
That's like saying you should get a co-located computer for free because you're paying $49.95 a month for bandwidth. There is still an initial investment cost.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Interesting... you are correct that transfer of an authentication key is not expressly prohibited anywhere in the EULA or terms of use. Of course, it is not expressly allowed, either. In fact, searching the WoW support site, I find no mention anywhere of their position on transfer of ownership, except that they say you cannot sell an account to someone else. As you've pointed out, you only want to create a new account. I think the problem is that they don't explicitly point out anywhere that once an authentication key has been used to create an account, it is permanently associated with that account. Accounts are not deleted when a person cancels their subscription, at least not for a fairly long period of time. This way, if a person wants to come back later and play again, they can keep their characters. I suspect that whoever you bought the game from will need to go through some special process to get their account permanently deleted before you can create a new one with the auth key.
you forgot, " ... and sell your useless copy to some other schmuck."
As far as I know you will never be able to create a new account with the used number. However you can find a person who purchased the Collector's Edition and ask them to give you the Guest Account activation code. That guest account will allow you to play for 10 days without any fees, after the 10 day trial period is expired you can renew the Guest Account and become a full fledged member. The only problem is finding an owner of Collector's Edition that is willing to part with their Guest account.
If you want to sell/buy WoW the CD is trivial, you don't need the key. What you're buying/selling is the account. Just get rid of your personal info, CC information etc, and give the new owner your username/password for your WoW account. The new owner just installs WoW and logs in with your credentials. Once he's in, he changes the account password, billing info, etc and the deal is over. Now I don't know if this is against the EULA, but does it really matter? The transfer works, its actually less hassle to edit the account ifo then go through the account creation process, and you're in the game as soon as the install/patching finishes. I can't imagine any repercussions, EULA allowable transfer or not.
Good luck you fucknut nerd. The man has you by the balls and you might just as well squeal and give him more of a thrill before he descends upon you and eats your cold, dead, nerd heart.
Having recently sold my own copy of World of Warcraft, I can say this is easily avoidable by getting the previous owners username and password. He's not using the service any more so he'll have no use for it, correct? -aunes
Or did you go directly to
I'm mailto:spluver@fargoscene.com! Spam me!
This is not just a WoW issue. Many MMORPGs are doing this. For example I bought a new copy of City of Heros for my fiance. The tape didn't look quite right on the box, but the guy at the register swore that it had not been returned and it was thier only copy so I bought it. When I opened it everything did look new so I didn't think anything more of it at first. When we tried to set up her account though we ran into the problem of the key having been used. Atleast with them though I quick fax of the key and my reciept and we had a new key e-mailed within a day.
Accounts being banned because of a 'mass protest"
I can't find the forum post but a guild that had names on multiple MMORPGs for the last 5 or 7 years I think it was banned with no reason given other than 'innapropriate name' I can't find it but it had 'drinking' or 'drunk' in the title and was toast, and they'd been allowed on the majors like EQ, DAOC, EQ2, and other.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
I bought an MSDN license one year and the activation code that Microsoft sent me was already used. After paying for MSDN Universal, I had a lengthy (months-long) dialogue with them trying to get my subscription activated. Some time after I gave up being nice, and started being extremely harsh with the people at MSDN support, I was able to activate my account -- even then, I was treated as if I had done something wrong. I might have had a good legal case if they hand't provided me with the registration code, and it came a hair away from me deciding to sue.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Parent's right, the correct answer is b) - Call the company that you have an issue with.
Answer a) - Slip a whiney post past the /. editors - is not correct.
This is especially true in the EU where a contract is something that two 'people' have agreed.
There are cooling down periods, the contract must obey the law, so they can't get rid of your first sale right, and above all it is something 'agreed', if the signer of the contract didn't know what they were signing then it's isn't valid, if there's a dispute in the wording then it should be in favour of the signer.
Secondly, EULA's are lip service. I'm sure that who ever you purchased the game off of didn't read the EULA sign a contract when they purchased it.
If Blizzard are claiming that the 'activation' key is a good then showing them the sales receipt should be enough to transfer it into your name.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Are more DRM hell.
What needs to happen is that you need to write to your local representative and tell them how DRM is removing your right to first sale.
This is a good example of how DRM is trashing your rights.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Just transfer the account and move on. This is how any MMO does it. You can only register 1 account with the box-key, and if you want to transfer it they won't stop you.
A question that comes to mind is whether the seller fulfilled all three parts of the Termination clause, section 5 of the EULA. If the seller failed to notify Blizzard of intention to terminate, it could be argued that the seller's licenses remain in effect and thus new license could not be given to the buyer of the used game. But one would hope Blizzard's customer service would at least make this clear to the buyer.
This is a bad idea. Section 5 talks about how to TERMINATE THE LICENSE AGREEMENT, not transfer the License Agreement, which is what's trying to be transferred here. In particular the Destroying of the game would not facilitate the other part of the EULA where it talks about fully transferring the property and terms relating to the License Agreement.
In Essence, he want to take the contract from the other guy, not the account. The account is not what the License Agreement is about, in all honesty. There's little mention of the account itself in the first place, and the places it does mention it, it is always the account attached to the Licensee, not the Agreement itself.
This forum Sig is licensed under the LGPL.
I bought UO used, and they were even smart enough to let you just buy an account regardless of wether you had bought a copy of the game or not. Just because WoW was made by morons, doesn't mean that MMOGs in general are flawed.
How am I to know this? Oh, you said so....
And, I read the EULA; it allows transfer (under certain conditions).
So, you trump the EULA?
Anyway, I have NO idea what an "MMORPG" actually is (well, it's a game program or system of some kind). So, the only way I would ever be introduced to this is via the second-hand market.
So, in a sick, twisted, way, you are right.
I will never know, because I will not participate in "beta"s, and I won't buy a fresh one, if I don't know what it is.
Good job alienating the (rest of the) market, son.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Don't play or buy any of Blizzard's products. It's not like they're the only video game vendor around. I personally dislike their use of the DMCA to bully developers, and wouldn't buy any of their games anyway. In the same way that a software feature that doesn't work really isn't a feature, a quality product that is backed by a set of lousy business ethics is not really a quality product, and should be treated as such. End of story.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
The same thing happens wiith Everquest for the PS2. If you buy a used copy you are not able to re-use the cd key. IIRC there is a similar clause in the SOE/EQ EULA. This has been verified by Sony. Just wanted to point out that Blizzard/Vivendi-Universal is not the only company to not allow the re-use of CD keys.
every MMORPG is like this. this is by far your own stupidity.
That is all.
Maybe Blizzard is violating their own ToS/EULA... but given that these agreements always state somewhere that they can change the terms of the agreement without notifice or your approval, where does that leave you, exactly? Nowhere.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
No, you wanted to pay for the jug too, just at a discount as it was 'used' and your friend no longer likes milk.
You wanting to pay for the monthly milk, yes that still stands..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I had to use the original owner's account... change his password, delete his characters. He gave me his security question/answer, which he can still use to regain access to the account, but then I can just do the same thing.
I think the problem is that Blizzard's tech support department is horribly over taxed. Not only have they greatly expanded their user base, but they are finding out the hard way that people whine a whole lot more when they are paying a monthy fee then a one time sum.
There is a good chance Blizzard's support staff is not part of the regular staff, meaning they don't really know a lot about the company.
Also, there is a good chance that they've been given a set of pre-built answers, and can't modify them... maybe try asking to speak to "someone higher up"... although, you'll probably get a decline...
OR... just tell them that the CD-key you bought didn't work (it's true) and it said it was already in use. If you say no more than that, you have a chance.
I can't entirely remember the account creation phase.
Is it, install game, create account, account creation asks for Key?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
No distributor wants to touch a game that is available online cheaper (or even at same price, but 'easier').
Your right. That business model is so flawed. No business would survive if they allowed their customers to download (for free) essentially the same thing they were trying to sell.
</sarcasm>
Ok, so run me through this one:
Under section 3B, we have "You may permanently transfer ownership of the Game... by physically transferring the CD-ROM..." etcetera etcetera, as stated in the story.
Then in section 5 we have "You may terminate the License Agreement at any time by (i) destroying the Game; (ii) removing the Game Client from your hard drive; and (iii) notifying Licensor of your intention to terminate this License Agreement." I bolded the 'and' myself, since it kind of implies that all three of those actions must be carried out. If only one of those three is required, then the seller would not have to notify anybody since he would have carried out Part 2. And of course, most of us would find it tricky to destroy something before physically transferring it.
Security through promiscuity is no better than security through obscurity.
Man, I feel for you, but if I were you, I'd be STEAMed.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Actually, I get the idea this system of suspending accounts rather than deleting them is commonplace with these MMORPGs. This certainly isn't unique to Blizzard and WoW.
... but she simply had billing xferred to a new card and re-activated her game, and kept on playing.
I understand the reasoning behind it, but it can cause some irritating situations too.
EG. My ex-wife was a big Shadowbane addict for a few months preceding our divorce. She was using an account I created initially. (I'm the one who bought the game, played it for about 30 minutes, and decided I didn't like it after all. I let her try it, and she got hooked immediately - and begged me to buy her a 3 month subscription after that.) The interesting thing is, though, I couldn't seem to find any way to get Ubisoft to permanently erase her account after she moved out. I was able to sign on to the web site and deactivate the account, so she couldn't keep billing renewals to my credit card
Somehow, it doesn't seem right I wasn't even able to have her characters deleted on an account she effectively hijaacked from me - and now I still keep getting email notifications about her activities in the game (purchases of expansion sets, tech. support help, etc. etc.).
It is up to the state to implement a consumer protection code. However, all states have one of some sort that general says no sales are final unless a sign is posted or it is placed on the receipt. Some states force returns no matter what, but most of the times you will see "All sales final." is when a company is liquidating(so it is unlikely you would have a recourse).
In the garment biz, you can refuse refunds usually if the item is soiled or the tags are cut. Outlet/overstock stores will usually cut the tags on checkout if they don't accept returns. I assume it is different on the highend as opposed to 'off the rack' clothing.
This whole concept of your problem makes no sense to me. What you are implying is that you should be able to just move the CDs wherever you want, hand them out to friends, etc. and each can create their own account and not sweat it. Now, perhaps you could make an argument that the old account is no longer active... but it could be reactivated at any time. Then who owns the CD key?
Every MMORPG out there does the same thing. Eventually, they start offering free sign ups and demos that let you get around it, but usually an update or two back from whatever happens to be current. Blizzard isn't gonna do that anytime real soon.
I'm glad this was posted. I was going out to buy one of Blizzards games, since I've heard so much about it, but now I'll know to go to a reputiable company for my needs.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
13. Name that incorporate titles. The term "Titles" as used herein shall include 'rank' titles (e.g. , "CorporalTed," or "GeneralVlad") and/or fantasy titles (e.g., "KingMike", "LordSanchez")
...You insensitive clod!
Umm.... since when have King and Lord become "fantasy" titles?!
I happen to be British, and we happen to have quite a lot of Lords, and when our Queen dies, we shall have a King too.
Subject to change.
Gamecards come with an authorization key for creating an account. You can use anyone's install media to put the game on your computer. Game cards are $30 for 60 days of play time and can be extended by adding the code from a new game card. --C
Obviously you haven't been through the small claims court process before.
Even if you win, the courts leave it up to you to enforce the claim. The cost of the lawyer is a lot more then buying a new copy...
"used copies of world of warcraft are worthless".
Tried playing singleplayer without a network connection? Even after the initial activation? I thought not.
STEAM is the most dangerous implementation of rights-robbing "DRM" out in the wild to date. Even Microsoft's Windows XP allows you to activate the software via phone and (barring no hardware changes) never hassles you about connecting back to Microsoft to verify anything ever again (barring re-install).
(maybe)
I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
Yes. That is basically the point. You only have yourself to hodl responsible for buying into proprietary software. If you use free software you wouldn't have to worry that because free software allows you to install the software on as many machines as you want. Unless the commercial software vendors are put in a position where they are losing business, they will continue to restrict your freedom in this way. Out of all the commercial products I wasted money on early in my experience with the PC platform, only one had a license that said I could install it on more than one computer as long as only one copy was in use at a time. That was Syntrillium Cool Edit. Now that they have been bought by Adobe and it is now Adobe Audition, I don't think that license model applies anymore. We must force the vendors into ging us what we want and we must do it in a legitimate way. I argue that making the move to free software is the best way to do it.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
You miss the point as did the moderators and pretty much every reply. I don't think it's a good idea to put those kinds of restrictions on software because I support the software business. I think it's a good idea because it will make idiots around the world more aware of just how much they don't understand about what the software business is doing to them. Once they realize that they will look for alternatives. I suggest that free software is a viable alternative to being put in prison for decades or fined a huge sum of money. Then and ONLY then will the software industry buckle under the pressure and give us what we want: inexpensive, good quality software that we can use in any way we please with no restrictions. Until that time, the softwre industry better put on the pressure...
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Any useful information in that message was completely canceled out by the use of the word "meme" *three* times - thereby invoking the small print at the bottom of Godwin's Law, which states that only Nazis use the word "meme".
CheapEngineer
I am not making this up. According to the BBB, you can contact:
Kevin Crook, Senior Contract Adminstrator
(949) 955-1380
P.O. Box 18979
Irvine, CA 92623
Believe me, I couldn't have invented that name if I wanted to!
They say you can transfer the software, so yeah you can run it. But you must inform them and terminate your account... They didn't say that if terminating was impossibel the rest held true. They just made one side impossibly and made the implication false. Thus they havent' broke their eula although they did fuck up and reneged on something they implied they allowed. SO I'd hazzard a guess and say your lawsuit might have some merit, but it's too easy to fight and neither you nor blizzard wants to go there. I suspect if you called them and had a manager handle it They would have accepted an account to be made in yrou name, and let you play under a new cd-key (after-you bought 6 mo)... but that is only if it is at all possible. It may not be possible to create a account before having a cd-key and they will problbly not want to giev keys out freely under this circumstance so your SOL in that case because they'd be dumb to give you one and you were dumb to buy it used.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
...Don't buy things with restrictive licenses. If people don't rush in droves to buy the latest games/media with draconian copyright protection enforcement then the developers will learn a lesson to simply bite the bullet and produce DRM-less CDs and copy-protection-less games. If they lose some money from piracy they will gain more from satisfied customers. I won't buy another game from Valve after my disappointment with HL2 not running out of the box because of a poor Steam connection. Likewise I won't buy CDs or media in file formats that I know to have severe restrictions on them. I don't resort to piracy anymore either because I don't care to become an outlaw just for the sake of such meager offerings from the entertainment industry these days. Rather I'll save my money and buy the few things I find really worthy.
If you send a letter off to bilzard and ask for a new cd key they will mail you one
Linux is like living in a teepee. No Windows, no Gates, Apache in house.
Hey quick answer on how to fix this. Blizzard will replace, for free any CD you have if the key is supposedly being used. It says somwhere on their page. You have to mail them your cd and the box, and this is certainly a pain and a hassle, but it might be worth it.
check through the sections of their pages and Im sure you can find it. Or call and tell them that their page says this and that you want to do this.
I love WoW but HL2 is definately the way to go for us minor overseas markets (and it was even partially translated! Amazing!).
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
From http://www.rubinghscience.org/memetics/dawkinsmem
The Footnote (2) reads:
"Go to CNN [for a] spell-checked, fact-checked summary" -- CmdrTaco
The EULA expressly gives permission to transfer all rights and priveleges. The service is a privilege or a right. Either one.
*All* rights and privileges? So I can transfer my right to vote in March to someone else, and cite the Blizzard EULA?
It specifically says "You may permanently transfer ownership of the Game and all parts thereof, and all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement..." and the license agreement does not cover the account. Account creation is a totally separate entity from the software itself. You don't even use the software to create that account, just to access it.
So the service may be a privilege (which actually is *not* mentioned in the EULA), but it's not covered by the licensing agreement, since it's not actually part of the software in the box.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
Anarchy Online was sold online only for quite a while.... and did quite well I think.
Which is more fun, the game of you versus -big evil game company-, or the game you wanted to play that they aren't letting you play? It doesn't have to cost $15/mo to fight -big evil game company-, although you could spend that much. But by all means, think of it as a game. Use your game skills. And if it stops being fun, go play something else.
I don't think that the above argument holds. The issue is who owns what. You own a copy of the WoW client. You have a legal right to sell that copy to another person. This is your right by law and it is also expressely confirmed as your right in the WoW EULA.
However, you do not own the WoW servers. Nor do you own the data that you have provided to Blizzard in order to play the game. This includes your characters, for example, and this is why Blizzard can and will ban your account if they see fit and they can legally do so--they control their property and that includes their server code and your data that you agreed to give them in exchance for the right to play. Blizzard is under no legal obligation to give you access to their servers despite the fact that you purchased the client software, and the quoted sections of the EULA do not indicate that they agree to do it, either. They may choose to help you if you ask nicely, are patient, and reach the right person, but they are under no legal obligation to do so.
Be willing to cough up another $50 if WoW is important enough to you, and be wary of third party client software purchases for proprietary server-based games.
-Elo
All of the online subscription games I have played over the years have been this way. I don't think it's particularly fair myself. What if you decide that the game is not as fun as you initially thought it would be, and you decide to dump it? Well, if you make that decision, of course you can cancel your subscription like normal services, but in this case it also renders your initial investment of $40-$50 to no value. If game companies refuse to allow a middle market for their products, then perhaps they should offer a direct refund or at least a voucher for another product? Seems like the game industry sorely needs some Satisfaction Guaranteed policies rather than continually screwing over their customers with shovelware.
The solution is simple. One account per key, account is terminatable to allow key transfer to someone else to start afresh, sans free month.
I hope that Blizzard sort this problem out.
The existing solution is far simpler.
Seller deletes their characters as they like.
Seller tells Buyer their Account name and Password.
Buyer changes Password.
Buyer deletes any undeleted characters as they like.
TADA!
I for one, would expect this situation as 'obvious'. Where did you get into your head the idea an online game would allow multiple owners to use the same key? What if the original owner comes back and claims you hacked their info and the request to end his account?
You may be 'technically' in the right, but anyone with brains would have predicted an event like this. Perhaps you are doing this just to illustrate the point?
Jug boy: Do not try and fill the jug. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
Egburr: What truth?
Jug boy: There is no jug.
Egburr: There is no jug?
Jug boy: Then you'll see that it is not the jug that needs filling, it is only yourself.
A buys a full jug of milk along with a milk card. for $15. The card entitles him to free refills for $15 per month.
B buys the jug off A but is a dolt for not asking for the milk card!
The jug alone is just an empty sad jug. (retail box).
The milk card (account/login/pass) is the only thing Blizzard care about (heck they'll fill up any jug if you present your milk card.)
B needs to secure the milk card if he expects to get the sweet sweet milk for $15 a pop.
I need milk...
Think of it this way: Now, instead of losing money and being stuck with a worthless hamster-wheel game with minimal quality as a massive multiplayer environment, you've only lost a lesser amount of money and have the freedom to do things that don't suck!
1. sign up for freeipod/screen/whatever scam /.
2. make slashdot account
3. post link in sig on
4. Fire Rick Berman out of a cannon (sell tickets)
5. profit
This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
Thats right! Sue them. They feel drunk with power. The old Blizzard would never do this. WarCraft II was made to allow three players to play network from one CD. That worked great.
Then the corporate hogs bought them out and the franchise went to hell in a handbasket. WarCraft III was a pale shadow of its predecessor in that the 'hero' characters were the only ones that meant anything. Now comes this 'World of Warcraft' I bought this dog (and that is an insult to the dog race) at my local Wal-Mart store. I fortunately never opened it. I saw the onerous comments on the box and figured on a large bill every month. Now this letter says that accounts once created are never closed even if the originator wants them closed. That is like a credit card that can never be paid off or cancelled and that can keep charging fees against the will of the account 'holder'. That should be actionable in court as well. I was able to get my grandson a refund on this 'game' so that I could get him a real present instead of a contract of indentured servitude to some shadowy corporation. This is even against the Federal Constitution' prohibition against involuntary servitude...slavery.
Try this with City of Heroes; same thing. I didn't go so far as calling them, since I was using my bro's disks, and his account was inactive. I just called him and got his login info, then reactivated his account with my creditcard.
Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
...am glad that they finally got something from 2004 to run on Linux. Congrats linux team!
While I don't play WoW, I've been looking at buying a used one. I figured that the key issue would come up, so I did a little research on the WoW website, and found an interesting little entry.
a bl 01115p
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=
I'm not sure if it's useful, but hopefully it might spark some ideas.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
what an MMPORG whore.
Its pretty standard that in MMORPG's the CD key is linked to the account that is initially created. The OP should get the account info that is associated with the used CD that he purchased. End of Story!
Happy Gaming!
The problem here isn't Blizzard, it's the stores buying and re-selling used copies. Blizzard should have notified retailers not to do this.
Since it's an online game, it makes sense to bind one Key to one use only, because in reality the original purchaser, be he active or not, could at anytime come back to his account.
There's also the issue of the first month's subscription which is paid for through the initial [new] sale.
Imagine this scenario if Blizzard's "rules" weren't what they are:
1. Buyer #1 purchased new copy, creates account and plays for 1 month. Does not subscribe.
2. Buyer #2 (used copy) makes an account--now should he get a month's worth of gameplay?
OR:
2b. Buyer #1 GIVES his copy to his friend, who according to the original post's argument, should get an account. Does he get a free month or not?
3. What stops buyer #1 from just creating new account after new account with the same KEY?
See, it's all too complicated. I think the only valid point the poster has here is that the lawyers overlooked that the game should not really be permitted to be re-sold. Hell, they probably mostly copy-pasted the EULA from one of their not-online games.
Who said anything about eBay? Or PayPal, for that matter?
TFA doesn't say by what means the used software title was aquired, nor how payment was tendered.
For all we know, he traded a twelve-pack of beer for it with his next-door neighbor.
Get some sunshine. Ebay is not the only venue via which used items change hands.
Kid-proof tablet..
I once had a copy of StarCraft bought for me for my birthday. I played it amongst friend for years but didn't hop online.
Once I finally *did* hop online, bnet told me that the CD Key was too old and had expired. Not that it was currently in use/ had been used: that it was too old.
I contacted their tech support but after receiving zip from them a friend of mine bought me the Battle Chest. I was slightly aannoyed that now this present had been bought for me twice but goddamn it I wasn't going to get any relief from Blizzard tech support: that's for sure. Want to play? You're going to have to buy the same product again.
I'm tired of the copy-protection shite that punishes legal users of the games while giving the crackers a 30 minute s/COPYPROTECTION/NOP/g hackfest. When it's more convenient to run cracked versions of games rather than the legal versions you know there's serious problems. Don't software makers realise that _uncobbled_ versions of their software are available on the internet before they're officially released?
Personally I don't think the games companies releasing cobbled software are going to effectively compete with pirates releasing uncobbled versions. I know I've got to a point where I'm thinking "Fuck it: they obviously don't want my money so I'll use the pirate version"
Cheers
Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
There's a reason why Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games and this is it. Because no one could take this from a customer.
I'm sorry, but you should've been able to guess this would happen.
The same question keeps popping up about Half-Life 2 and Steam. By all rights, once we buy a game, we should be able to sell it to another person if we don't want the game. With Half-Life 2, anyone can buy the CD/DVD in the store and that same person can turn around and sell it to Joe Blow after they're done playing. Unfortunately, for Joe Blow, he's screwed, and the original person can keep on playing.
Valve tries to compensate by allowing you to send in $10 and some information. But, in the long run, you're boned either way.
This kind of thing is going to keep cropping up over and over as companies like Valve and Blizzard test just how far they can abuse consumers. With such a young, unknowledgeable and apathetic targetted market group, it's just going to get worse until someone looks over the EULA and finds some way to sue the companies.
Like someone once mentioned, companies simply don't like us selling our used games once we're done. I think there was even a lawsuit a long time ago about the used market for CD's. The premise was that since the CD's don't wear out like cartridges, that they are considered, "like-new," condition and the companies should receive their cut of the profits. That would mean that I would have to give a cut of the profits to American Greetings every time I purchased a MIB Strawberry Shortcake Doll from eBay. Damn flawed logic if you ask me.
...the servers are overloaded AS IT IS. Why let more people in to increase the lag, and ques (for those servers that are like that - not all are) to get more money when every one of them is going to complain and whine about it, and some of them will leave?
Better to keep same player count, and optimize/upgrade the server clusters (assuming here that each realm is on several servers) to handle the current load, and increase to allow for new players along with that.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I have bought a copy for my brother and a copy for myself, at two different locations, both of which were fully stocked with plenty of shiny new WoW boxes. At least in Dallas, the game is incredibly easy to find. This guy was just being a cheapskate, and deserves what he gets. I'm all for saving money but his little plan didnt work, he needs to get over it. Why shouldnt he have to pay 50$ like the rest of us did? If he would quit dicking around and actually buy a copy and PLAY the game he would realize Blizzard has released another masterpiece good for many, many, (as in multiple hundreds of) hours and is well worth the price of admission. Just my 2 cents, Ack (Ackerus on Illidan...)
Friend bought a copy of starcraft; logs onto b.net and gets a "CD Key in Use by..." message. Being a new purchase, he emailed Blizz, stating that he must be that rare instance where a legit CD Key was generated by one of those zillion keygens out there. They issued him a new key after some hmmmm- and hahhh-ing.
But Maaa! Everyone else has a
Since /. received some flak in the past for having AC posts of Church of Scientology material, I was wondering about posting large chunks of EULAs. If I was to take large portions of EULAs and posted them up here for discussion (as some posters have already done), would I be infringing on copyrighted material?
Linux at home
If you want to buy a used copy then you have to buy the persons ACCOUNT, not the box. IE you need to purchase a username and password then change the password when you recieve it.
Kinda standard as far as MMORGs go, the installation does not automaticly grant an account.
Gamedrive anyone?
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=abl 01115p
This might fix your problems, however if I read correctly, if you dont have a receipt you pay an extra 10USD
If they just required a 2-3 month subscription from people who do this they would make more money than they would from a retail package on the monthly fees! All this does is guarantee they have one less customer!
They don't deserve to stay in business.
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
...you need to be slapped.
I'm not flaming you here, and you may very well be new to MMORPG's, but here's a little tip.
Accounts have always been, and will always be keyed to one user account. once a CD key is used, that's it, that key is locked the that account.
This remains constant from UO, EQ, SWG, WOW, City of Heroes, Planetside etc. etc. ad infinitum.
The ONLY way you're going to get any satisfaction out of this is to either, contact the original owner and get his login and password. Then change it and the billing information. OR Buy a new copy.
Blizzard isn't doing anything wrong here, this is fairly common practice throughout all MMORPG's. WOW is a great game, and their Customer Service Dept, has been fairly helpful anytime I've had to deal with them. Blizzard has done a great job on the title and it just keeps getting better. However, don't go bashing Blizzard just because you didn't like the answer you received. I sympathize with your plight, but you're boned on this one.
Who cares about the ozone layer?...thanks to CFC's I can write my name......IN CHEESE!!!
Yeah, I had a similar problem. I bought Everquest a few years ago when all my friends were raving about it. I played for a while and didn't like it, so I sold it on Ebay. However when the person who bought the game tried to install it, we found that the CD key was already associated with my credit card, so even though I had canceled my account the buyer couldn't create a new account. I called Sony, thinking it would be no big deal to fix this, but after arguing with their helpdesk for more than an hour I gave up and just refunded my ebay buyer. It wasn't worth the effort.
The Sony people couldn't understand what I wanted. What they kept saying was what was the point of them selling me the disk if I could just turn around and sell it to someone else.
This statement alone tells me where they want to go with all sorts of content sales. We are already seeing this with DRM for music sales, the record companies have been trying to kill the used CD market for a long time.
Hey, you know what, this is what happens when you support closed source software. If you don't like it, just stop paying for it.
It really doesn't matter if they are violating their own EULA since they can always force down a patch with a new one.
Peace, or Not?
Can you imagine how much money your stock options would be worth today if you had started working at Microsoft in 1984?
I don't want to think about it.
My other first post is car post.
You can't change the "official" e-mail address where you receive communications from the game company?
I mean, what if there's an important announcement like a EULA or price change... Who gets the e-mail? If you get it, and you can't change the e-mail in the account management area, then this system is ridiculous!
This is why I haven't used any software with EULA at all in over a year. GPL or BSD, that is it. Anything that needs Authentication Keys is a joke, annoying, and in this case, stupid. I hope the best for you. Maybe BLizzard will come around someday but I doubt it.
IANAL, so I don't know any really good examples. But here's a couple so-so ones. Guy living in Virginia in the 1780s is owed money by a Revolutionary War vet. In lieu of repayment, he accepts the deed to a land grant in Western Pennsylvannia. Travel was really difficult in those days,so it's a really long time before he ever visits the land. But he has to make improvements to retain title. So he has somebody on the scene build a cabin. When he finally visits the site he discovers that somebody who thinks he owns the land has built a second cabin on the property. And they've sited it so there's no way to get into the first cabin!
(Why do I know such a strange story? Cause the guy from Virginia was George Washington. I just finished reading The Grand Idea: George Washington's Potomac and the Race to the West.)
Another example that's kind of closer (because IP is involved) is the movie It's a Wonderful Life, which has been copyright-free since the early 50s, due to a screwup by a studio lawyer. That's why you used to see it over and over again every Christmas, because you could broadcast it or show it without paying royalties. Then Aaron Spelling's lawyers managed to secure the rights to a bunch of things relating to the movie: a song somebody sings in it, a story that the movie may have been based on (the paper trail's unclear), some other stuff. So now you can't show this movie without AS's permission -- even though he doesn't own it! Possibly a good lawyer could knock down his claim, but who's going to hire one just to show an old movie?
I'm guessing that Blizzard's lawyers simply decided that the best way to make the software non-transferrable was to not let people sell the registration numbers, and not bother putting anything in the EULA. From my own feeble knowledge of law, I know of no reason they can't do that. Maybe I'm wrong, but please don't waste your time telling me that -- unless you have more than an amateur's knowledge of the law yourself.
The original owner needs to transfer the account to you, then, once the terms that the actual purchaser of the CD agreed to have been fulfilled, you can call and make as big a stink as you want.
RTFA, you can't transfer accounts. Transfering accounts is a violation of Section 1E of their Terms of Use.
As the poster stated, however, you can't change all of the information in the account. You can replace their credit card information with your own, but you can't change everything. For instance, I don't believe you can change the First/Last name combo you give them, but I could be mistaken.
Why didn't you ask the previous owner to change the account details when you we're buying the game?
Change the previous owners account contacts details, email address and delete previous characters. Viola!
Sorry to be cynical, but that's what you get for buying used software. Used console games are one thing - PC games are another because of the ease of piracy. Don't buy used PC software...EVER!
Did you even TRY to find a new copy of the game? I just checked Amazon.com, and it's shipping within 24 hours there. I was at Media Play just two days ago, and there was about ten to fifteen copies of World of Warcraft there.
With the first month being free, it's like you're paying $35 for the game + $15 for the first month. I hope your used copy cost less than $35, or you weren't saving money anyway.
However I suspect you were rooked on purpose, because anyone who's played an MMO before and read their forums should know that no company has ever allowed you to sell your key for use by another person. It's simply not something they do, yet it keeps coming up, people keep complaining about it, etc.
If you bought it on ebay (or similar) I would complain and try to get your money back, since the person may have known they were selling you a useless product. They may even still be playing on their old account, since the CDs are not needed once the game is installed.
The reason they won't delete an old account is because they hope to eventually win that customer back with new expansions and don't want them to feel they have to start from scratch again. At the same time, they usually threaten that they can't guarantee your account will still be there if you leave. However, I played EQ for 4 months when it was still on the first expansion (many years ago) and recently they tried to get me to reactivate my account. My old character was still there after all these years.
All these posts point to a potential lawsuit. You as the little man don't want to fight the machine.
Why don't you find others with the same issue in multiple states and file a class action lawsuit?
You might quickly find your numbers growing and have some weight to push back with.
The poor guy whining in the article is just plain ignorant.
Of course you can't re-use a CD key! Thats the whole point of having a CD key. Obviously so that you have to buy the game from blizzard. His excuse that he really does want to pay blizzard, through the subscription fees just doesnt cut it. Everyone else had to buy the game as well as subscribe, so should he. How can he really prove he didnt just pirate the game to avoid the initial cost?
I'll have to assume it's his first mmorpg.
Everquest is up to its 9th expansion pack. Each one has had a CD key that could only be used once. After every expansion I've seen BASTARD companies like Electronics Boutique selling used copies of the expansions, without giving a damn that the buyer would never be able to use the software. Well at least with those expansions, the outside of the box says its not for resale after used!
Wake up, buy the box new you cheapskate, then enjoy the game.
PS, I hope you like spiders. Mainly green ones. But for some variation, there's the odd spot in the game where the spiders are off - green. Nice looking spiders, but not much else.
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
When are people going to learn? Blizzard demonstrated how much they despised their customers a long time ago. Stop buying their products and run them into the ground. Same goes for Electronic Arts.
Boycott, boycott, boycott. It is the only way they'll learn, or they'll go bankrupt.
I'm surprised something like this hasn't come up much sooner. The author of the story makes it sound like it's just Blizzard at fault here, when I'm pretty sure that you'd encounter very similar problems if you tried to play any game requiring some form of online validation, that you bought second-hand. This is exactly the reason why I have avoided buying such games second-hand since CD-keys came about (several years now).
If there do exist mechanisms for restoring a CD-key to an unregistered state, for any game, I'm sure the hassle is not worth the pitiful amount retailers will pay for used games, and I can't expect retailers to check every used game they get for working CD-keys.
Am I stating the obvious? Why not ask Blizzard to exchange your used version with a new version which comes with a new key?
The case is IMHO comparable with a defect CD. You own the right to play the game, so Blizzard is bound to make that possible, by exchanging the defect part with a working one. In your case with a working key.
They sold you an used retail pack, so someone created an user with that key. That user is linked with the key.
The same one that sold you the used game has to give you the user name and its password.
That's all.
One month of play is included in the fee. Anyone who has ever purchased a game and never played it a month afterwards and complains about the "high cost" of WoW deserves a stab in the face. While I make no implication that you are such a person, it is shocking how many persons I have as friends complained similarly despite having purchased things like DooM3 and Half-Life 2 which, while fine games, they got perhaps two weeks of play out of, and they will never dust those games off again.
Also, a child (peer of this comment) makes the other anemic lament about "oh, give me the game free, I'm paying a subscription fee." Hello. The game was in development for four? five? years. Maybe they'd like to, I don't know, turn a profit (and judging from units moved, that's very likely a possibility). As heart breaking as that notion may be, I think most of us have gone on to realize that Blizzard is a corporation, one of those weird beasts associated with profits and margins and things.
The subscription fee is, presumably, to cover continuing costs of development. When I was a City of Heroes player, I had no use for other video games. Weirdly, the cost for a three month subscription is about on part with a new video game. Hmm... going with a known quantity for three months which will have new! fun! exciting patches! (sorry, I'm a patchaholic) over those three months... or picking some random thing off the shelves.
Now, if you (collective) are the sort of person who has purchased fewer than 4 video games in the course of a year, I tip my hat to you. You're absolutely right. A MMO is a waste of your money. But you (hopefully) can see how it is not a ridiculous fiscal notion on its face for many.
You've ID'd the main problem with MMOG's today: having to pay upfront for a subscription based game. Basically what's happening is the same thing music fans are sick of -- having to pay the middle man. The game publishers put the money upfront for the development costs of the game which they recoup and hope to make a profit from the initial retail sale of the game. Blizzard in turn makes their money from the monthly subscription fee. This is why you can't transfer the game.
If accounts were free, or available from online, there would be no distribution of the box version. No distributor wants to touch a game that is available online cheaper (or even at same price, but 'easier').
Yet, you can buy City of Heroes in a box or just download it online.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
I guess now that the story is being spread around B.net forums more stupid people are showing up.
IT HAS _NOTHING_ TO DO WITH GETTING A NEW ACCOUNT OR WHETHER OTHER MMOS TIE 1 KEY TO 1 ACCOUNT, in WoW this isn't the case. The point is Blizzard is most likely violating their own end of the EULA, which is something that stands on shaky ground to begin with. If pursued enough, this will eventually come down to either Blizzard admitting they broke their own contract (big trouble for them) or the legitimacy of EULAs being challenged.
It probably won't go that far because most people in the first poster's position wouldn't want to go through the hassle, but meh some other people could pick up steam. (no pun D:)
The ugly truth is that Blizzard guy is right. The copy of WOW is not some kind of "account generator" that you can you repeatedly to create new accounts. They want the number of sold copies to be equal (or greater than) with number of accounts and I understand their reasoning!
the game cannot be played without an online account and a subscription to the service, and Blizzard will not even allow the account to be created.
That's exactly the problem with non-free software. The user isn't in control.
I'm sorry but thats horseshit. Blizzard is one of if not the best pc developer out there. They dont crank out titles so that you'll buy it, forget it, and move on to their next title 3 months down the road, they make genuinely good games that are fun, lasting, and definately replayable. CD-Keys are a tool designed to prevent people from pirating games hence if a game has a CD-Key don't fucking buy it used. Blizzard has only been using them for 9 years now maybe you'll figure it out in a another decade. Whats so wrong with buying a brand new game having your own copy and not having to gripe, bitch, and moan every 5 minutes. Go back to Linux and wait for a good developer like Blizzard to come around, you'll die of old age.
Yes, its an exception.
That's because NCSoft distributed it themselves.
Retailers were EXTREMELY pissed off at launch, and the online purchase option was carefully hidden few days after launch, and it stayed hidden for a long time afterwards.
Nowdays they again offer the option openly, but make no mistake - retailers were NOT amused of the move.
'Course, you may also find a binding arbitration clause in the contract, which would keep you from winning a court case, and probably a clause restricting the venue to a jurisdiction inconvenient to you. Then there's the question of whether you have standing, since the EULA was between the original purchaser and the software company, and it is his right to transfer everything guaranteed in the license that is impeded. As second-hand purchaser, your claim is against the person who sold it to you.
I think the best thing is to look up contact information for the company's officers and write them a civil, straightforward letter asking them to rectify the situation. Then, if you don't receive satisfaction, you can exact your pound of flash by noising it around on Slashdot and to reporters at your local newspaper/television station.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
I thought most /.ers believed that EULAs were not enforceable. Interesting to see them argue the other side of the issue.
I'm of course assuming it was one of the clickthru or break the seal type EULAs. Actually if it was a break the seal type EULA then the person who bought the used copy never really agreed to the EULA as he couldn't have broken the seal. He therefore can't expect the company to abide by it.
This could have a number of bad consequences if the court takes the view I just stated. We don't want these EULAs to become enforceable against us.
Think carefuly before taking any futher action.
The guy who marries the Queen doesn't become the king, even though a woman who marries a king becomes the queen (usually). Similarly Queen Victoria's husband was Prince Albert, not king anything. Something to do with queens being seen as inferior to kings (at least, 100 odd years ago), so if they were king and queen people would get confused as to who's in charge. See http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a970214a.html for some more terminology... :)
As an aside, the king's wife isn't always queen - e.g. when Charles marries Camilla and later (presumably) becomes King, she won't be queen. I think that's because she's a divorcee - we don't have a problem with kings getting divorceed (ref Henry VIII)...
I'm glad they didn't let you delete her account. That would have been so mean. How would you feel if she had destroyed your games when she moved out?
"What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
I'm glad they didn't let you delete her account. That would have been so mean. How would you feel if she had destroyed your games when she moved out?
www.nomarriage.com
"The only reason I can see the topic creator having an issue, is because someone didn't notify Blizzard in the first place that a CD-Key exchange was going to happen."
;).
My account was suspended because I was trying to 'transfer' my account to someone else. I was selling my complete gamebox on ebay and said i'd give the account name and password.
First if your account was suspended, immediately call up your credit card company and do a 'chargeback' on your subscription. If they want to not give you full service then you do not give them payment. Tell the people at the credit card company that you did not get full service and other information.
Second, call blizzard's account and billing problem department at 1-800-59-blizzard. If they say this is only for 'billing' tell them it clearly states in the manual it is for ACCOUNT problems as well. Feel good in the idea that you are costing them money since its toll free, call as often as you'd like
Third, try contacting the EFF at information@eff.org. When I contacted them they said they were getting a lot of complaints on this issue. Make it a good letter with as much facts and dates as possible.
I'll reply to myself when i get more contact information and other tips here.
Blame lawyers. All AV companies were sued for providing something for free, thus depriving shareholders of future income. You still get a year's free defs, then subscriptions after that are cheap.
Why not just call them and get them to reset the password on YOUR account? Then have some fun with your lovingly-crafted charaters. :)
The reason is simple.
Our medical practices/tech has improved to the point that we have a HUGE decline in deaths, but a HUGE INCREASE in disabled. I've been hearing upwards of 2/3's of the injuries that would bave resulted in a previous death during Viet are treatable enough to keep him alive and injured.
I bought a software program that had an online Authentication Key scheme. The software company has since gone out of business. My hard drive crashed and now there is no way to reinstall the software. I'll never buy software with this kind installation requirement again. I have already returned software complaining loudly that the software is useless if the company goes out of business.
Once you "installed" it on your Dreamcast, that account was forever linked to that Dreamcast's serial number. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That didn't stop me from buying, playing, and enjoying the game. Alot of people got duped into buying old copies. However, the game materials made it very clear from the get-go that this was the case, and you either had to sell your game/Dreamcast combo, or not sell the game.
http://www.bynarystudio.com
I call bullshit.
Find an alternative to Symantec, because with their recent addition of "phone home" activation, and refusing to honor subscription renewals without software upgrades, they have become the worst choice you can make in AV software.
Check out the issues with their latest policies on The Gripelog if you need details. A sample of thier treatment of customers:
You were saying?
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
That's not cool. Unless she's a total bitch, why do that to someone?
At least as far back as UO, you could not create a new account with a used key. 1 key / account, to open a new account required an unused key.
So what's the big deal? We're not talking about thousand-dollar licenses of business software, we're talking about a $50 game. At the absolute worst case, Blizzard might have to refund the money the second-hand purchaser spent on the used copy. Small claims stuff, at worst. You still won't have a valid account key, so if you goal was to play the game, you failed anyway. If your goal *isn't* to play the game, why the hell are you doing this in the first place?
For Blizzard, it's a no-win situation. They either have to settle every second-hand sale like this (! - yeah, people won't abuse *that*), or come up with some way to handled it themselves (probably by hosting a transfer of account service) that's *cheaper* than settling with everyone.
-lw
Mods: Disagreeing with me != my post Offtopic / Flamebait.
World without hate or war, invaded. Tragic?
I don't think retailers gave a shit. Nor do I believe the option was hidden, they would only hurt them selves.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
When my father-in-law was having problems with a company regarding a warranty, (Best Buy wrote down the wrong warranty code), he told the customer service rep that he wasn't going to sue or anything, but he was going to forward his complaint to the Better Business Bureau with a recommendation to submit it to the State Attorney's office. The wrong warranty code was immediately overlooked and a repair shop called him within 5 minutes asking him what he had said to the company since they were all over him to set up a service call immediately.
Alternatively, if you send them an email, Cc it to your States Attorney's office and explicitly mention having done so in the email. If nothing else it will get their attention. Corporate lawyers may not be affraid of an individual's lawyer, but they don't like going up against the government.
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
"Ebay is not the only venue via which used items change hands." Why is this post rated informative?
my capcha was condom
I've purchased a used copy of City of Heroes through eBay for my wife (in reality, all I did was purchase a CD key, and told the seller to throw the box away).
;)
Before this all took place, I had the seller change his password to something innocuous and we just took over his account after the sale took place.
Sure, we couldn't change his username, and his real name is still listed on the account, but everything else, including password, secret phrase, et cetera, has all been changed to suit us.
It's basically like someone else (parent or something) is paying for the account.
And yes, I *do* have a wife who plays pc games...that's why I'm posting AC
In several European countries many software publishers are in violation of the law as the publishers do not allow selling of the software key/disk. EULA are non-binding in countries such as Germany because by buying you are agreeing blindly to a contract and German courts among others have declared this an illegal practice and hence you OWN the game and disk since you can not view the EULA before hand, therefore you can sell or trade your disk and license as you see fit.
I'm eager to see how this all plays out. I think these publishers are overstepping their bounds trying to change physical property of disks to ethereal ones of buying a service. Since most MMO make you BUY the game and license and then charge you monthly for the service, it stands to reason that they SHOULD let you sell it, but they just want another retail disk sale instead. I'm hoping the US courts put a stop to this ASAP, though I currently do not know of any lawsuits pending...
I'm so excited about the http://www.guildwars.com/ beta this weekend. I can't wait for April 27 so that I play a game like this without a monthly fee. It's always been the monthly fee that's kept me from playing a MMORPG and now that some former Blizzard employees are releasing a game I'm ready for some action.
A word from the wise(guy):
Avoid Blizzard games. They are the digital equivalent of crack. Once you get hooked on your habit, you'll end up spending hundreds of hours online each month, and of course you'll keep paying for the privilege. I should know, I had several 90+ characters (including a 99 lvl 'zon) in Diablo II.
I finally wised up, went cold turkey, and got a life. Went to the gym, started lifting weights, cardio, and basically spending quality time with the people I love.
I predict that games like WoW will become even more immersive, especially when being used on 42 inch Plasma displays, with Dolby 5.1 surround sound... damn, I think I'm recidivising..... and as a result, will become even more addictive. In future, AlAnon and NarcAnon will be joined by MMRPGAnon.
Hi, my name is Hruk the 45 lvl Barbarian, and I'm a Gaming addict.
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
I bought a used copy of Final Fantasy XI Online from a software seller on eBay and had this exact same thing happen. I made multiple calls to support lines at Square/Enix and basically came to the conclusion that the only thing you pay $50 for is your activation key. The rest is garbage. You can always get CDs shipped to you if you trash them. They even offered to send me a new instruction book (which contained the activation key), if I had an original receipt and the box. One of which I obviously didn't have.
So, its not just Blizzard. Square/Enix pulled the same crap. Now, I didn't RTFEULA for Final Fantasy, so I can't comment on whether Squar/Enix are violating their own EULA or not. I believe it said plainly on the box "Not for resale". Still, it sucks because at the time, I couldn't get a copy of FF anywhere! Luckily a friend found a store that had a single copy and snarfed it for me immediately.
The seller on eBay, after weeks of pressure and threatening to go through eBay arbitration, refunded my money.
Spoken like a true ubid investor.
Well, considering when she left, she did so while I was at work and cleaned out practically my entire house in the process... AND considering she took my sports car (heavily modded, even) and *sold* it, forging my signature on the title to do so (since it was purchased before I was married and was never in her name), AND considering she even came back a second time, broke in a basement window, and took some of the replacement items (cordless phone, answering machine, etc.) that I bought from her first escapade - YES, I'd be MORE than happy to trash her account.
for buying anything with these kinds of restrictions. I don't care how good it is. Don't accept this crap. To me, you're a fool for buying into it, and you only make it harder for the rest of us to get less restrictive stuff that could be just as good. Don't buy software that has a license big enough to require another whole CD. It doesn't matter if they or anybody else violated their EULA. I don't believe in their validity anyway. If it's not a valid contract that I would have to abide by, then I can't expect them to abide by it either. Stop buying software with such nonsense, and the problem will go away.
What?
And I quote, "Jane...you ignorant slut."
I'm glad you're rid of that chick. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
The previous user didn't sell you the entire package apparently. He should have given you also his accountname and password, then you could have logged in under his account, setup your own method of payment etc. and you would have been good to go.
The CDs etc are irrelevant, its the account that matters, and Blizzard has stated repeatedly in the past that they won't only sell CD-keys.
I think the previous owner ripped you off, he can still be playing the game on the account he made with the copy he sold you.
You can still use the existing account, so when you buy a used copy you must/should warn the seller that he/she must write down his account information (user and pass). When you got tha game you just change (manage account) the pass (and other information) with your own.
Well, ok then. You didn't say that the first time.
"What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
There is a local microbrewery that sells 'growlers', essentially a half gallon jug with their logo on the side. The first time you get one it costs $10 and comes filled with beer. If you take the growler back, they will refill it for $6.
If I sell (or even just give) that growler to someone else, the brewery isn't going to care who owned it first, they will just refill it for the same $6 that they would have wanted from me.
The problem was that the seller didn't complete the transfer. The account they created using the authentication key that came with the used account should have been part of the "rights and obligations" associated with the product.
Additionally, this issue is not unique to WoW but the standard practice for the majority of these "pay to play" games. That market has not yet adopted the 'let anyone create an account" mentality which IMHO will happen eventually.
You can get a NEW authorization key from Blizzard for $10.00. You send in a request to them for a replacement, using the guidelines as stated on their website. Read through the 2 links below on how to obtain a new authorization key.
a bl 01117pg /?id=abl 01115p
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbilling/?id=
http://www.blizzard.com/support/wowbillin
Wow. Post her home computer IP address for us then. :-) We'll have some fun.