Once you legally redefine the word marriage all sorts of follow on side effects begin.
Basis for this statement?
Catholic Church doesn't believe it is right? Tough. Won't matter once the law changes, they will give em a full church wedding and place a child in their care through their adoption agency or the Justice Dept cornholes em.
Sounds like you believe the lies of the LDS. No, the Justice Dept. can't do anything to religious institutions being discriminatory. The First Amendment ensures that.
Once they get gay marriage they are going to push without interruption for group ones.
Really? Basis for this statement too?
And always keep your eye on NAMBLA
Subtle NAMBLA troll? How much did you pay for the account?
But two guys making out on the street is as bad as a normal couple making out in public. These days both happen with far too much frequency. Get a room, people.
So you are disgusted by both, but choose to take it out on gays? Yeah, that makes sense.
Sure it is. When the source of your video signal no longer includes a DAC to generate the VGA signal, there's no point in including the connector on the mainboard. If Intel and AMD are dropping VGA support for their integrated GPUs, then your only option will be an external GPU for VGA. And even then the significantly reduced usefulness of a VGA port means it'll be rapidly dropped from new monitors.
We've still got serial ports. There are still motherboards with a parallel port, for goodness sake.
I haven't seen a recent board with a parallel port. Even serial ports have been reduced to headers on the motherboard that you need to cable out (and even that's missing on some hardware.)
The caveat is that it doesn't matter who is first, or even who comes later. It's who gets the school districts and universities to mandate their platform as the source of all textbooks for all students. They get a guaranteed stream of tax dollars, and long term customers who will be familiar with their platform.
Personally, I would prefer DRM-free PDFs or interactive and cross platform HTML 5 "books" that didn't mandate a platform.
Lots of people have owned Motorola DROID devices, they're actually quite popular and have been attacked frequently. They use the same security system on all of the devices, and none of them have been bypassed.
The Nook Tablet employs the same security system and while a sorta-workaround was found, it's virtually guaranteed to be fixed in the next system update, which will lock out new devices.
Maybe this is a stupid question, by why would every distribution have to get their GRUB build signed?
Because each distribution builds its own GRUB, possibly with a different version of the compiler making each one different. Unless you want to coordinate every Linux distro to use a single source for a single build of GRUB.
For something like UEFI secure boot to work, you need to sign all code that executes during boot.
Correct, however that's not the hard part. The hard part will be getting the key included by default on all the possible devices that users might install it on. And this doesn't even account for live cds and live usb keys, which may not even use GRUB.
That's why Microsoft has to sign everything- there's no mechanism to give other entities signing keys rooted in Microsoft's trust anchor.
Well technically they don't. Canonical could run around and try to ensure every new device includes their key. Microsoft doesn't have to worry though, since it's guaranteed that it will be included.
that's only because they're the only player in town
Nonsense. One could have been established or chosen independent of Microsoft, but I suspect that MS and Apple both enjoy the, "decentralized" you might call it, nature of keys that give them the advantage.
No one else has offered to set up a UEFI executable signing service.
And I doubt one will crop up.
It's basically a problem being solved in the way most advantageous and convenient to Microsoft, and Microsoft using their position to ensure it is done that way.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that UEFI secure boot is illegitimate. The problem is the process seems to be slanted entirely in Microsoft's favor.
it seems like GRUB really should be able to get their code signed
Every distro would have to get their GRUB signed. If you ran something like Gentoo, you would need to have YOUR GRUB build signed. And your key would either need to be available on the system, or you would need to be able to install it.
The problem stems from systems where the keys can't be updated. Distributing GRUB for those platforms would be a GPLv3 violation, unless you included the key used to sign it as welll, which will never happen.
Are you being obtuse or do you actually have no grasp of the subject at all? Windows 8 doesn't exist, hence you cannot buy it.
Well, now who is being obtuse. I thought this was a discussion about the upcoming Windows 8 devices, now suddenly it's RIGHT NOW? Holy shit, way to arbitrarily shift contexts when it suits you for the insult!
How can they control who buys Windows, with respect to hardware OEMs? Easy, you can only get such licenses from Microsoft. Was that really so hard?
Sure there is the MS Tax, but do you really think MS would get to the point of paying people to use Windows and make a loss?
That's effectively what they did for a large part of the XBOX and XBOX360's lifetime.
Google is working hard to kill MS in business and search too
Google came out competing fairly, and left Microsoft scrambling to catch up. Microsoft, however, has a reputation for breaking the law and doing many questionable things to ensure that they take control of a market segment and keep others out.
you seem to be implying the ipad and android are knocking on death's door.
iPad? Hardly. Microsoft likes Apple because they are "competition," but they're pretty much the only competitor Microsoft wants. Both Apple and Microsoft hate Google for daring to enter into the market.
If GPLv3 actually forbids a useful security mechanism, then GPLv3 is broken.
It doesn't. What it requires is that the security mechanism be under the control of the person who owns the device, so that they can sign their own build of GRUB and install it. So Ubuntu could deliver a signed build, but I could add my own key and sign my own build.
Understandably, companies with a fetish for controlling the end-user don't like this.
If the FOSS community found themselves in that position by not creating any GPLv2 or BSD licensed UEFI-compatible bootloaders, then its going to be up to them to get themselves out of that mess.
We're being put into this mess by Microsoft's desire for market control. If you can figure out how to add your keys (or disable secure boot) on your new Designed for Windows 8 motherboard, you can use a UEFI compatible version of GRUB to boot Linux, securely.
Microsoft already said their signing service would sign third-party bootloaders.
So it still puts Microsoft as the arbiter for access to our own property (and I think they're full of shit, in any case) never mind that not just anyone will be able to get a signature. I'm sure they'd love to be in a position of control over the entire industry, especially over competing OSes. It's not like Microsoft hasn't deliberately delayed things intentionally to cause other companies (even partners) trouble.
I have, but again we're just getting started. Microsoft is in this to win and take the market. It took them an entire generation and billions in losses in the console market to be considered anything more than a failure.
Easily. Where do you buy licenses for the ARM version of Windows 8?
But in this case Android tablets already exist and are extremely popular.
They are, but how popular will they be if Microsoft starts subsidizing the tablets to undercut Android, while pressing the "it runs Windows 8 just like your desktop!" angle?
And that's resulted in the destruction of Android and booming market dominance of Windows Phone...if you live in a reality that isn't this one.
Hey, give them time. They're just getting started with their rampage.
Windows owns 90%+ of that market, naturally that's what hardware manufacturers want to tap into, that is NOT the case with tablets.
Yeah, Windows owns 90% of the desktop market. And now you can get it on your tablet too!
And those are really destroying the world, look at how the world hates them!
The "world" is largely unaware of how computers function as a whole. But it's gotten people like you to come out and defend their spread.
those who do just choose the alternatives.
While such alternates are available. Microsoft is working hard to ensure they cease to be.
Hey FOSSies, its just MSFT copying Apple again, so quit getting your panties in a wad, okay?
Yup, we should just STFU and let the two biggest companies in consumer computing shut down all but each other as options in the market.
There will be NO CHANGE when it comes to X86, in fact part of the "designed for Windows 8" specs state that they MUST allow the secure boot to be disabled
But none of how that works is defined, so chances are each vendor will have a different way of doing it and when that happens, the likelihood of automating the process goes way down (if it was ever possible) and the barriers to entry go way, way up.
heavily subsidized by MSFT who don't want "Hey turn that $299 Windows 8 tablet into a $500 Android tablet!" posts all over the net 3 weeks after it comes out.
Of course not. They want to undercut Android and drive it out of the market. Prices will probably jump back up (but the security won't be relaxed) if they succeed.
And I know this will piss you off, get ready for it....DON'T BUY IT...is that REALLY so hard?
If Microsoft succeeds in their obvious goal of eliminating all other choices aside from Apple, nope, it won't be. Because there will be no choice.
so WTF are you bitching for?
Because a company with a powerful monopoly known for acting in anti-competitive manners is establishing requirements that make it extremely difficult, and in some cases impossible, for alternative software platforms to be used on these devices.
if I did and was actually gonna use this for real work I'd WANT it locked down
Sure, sure. I would too. But that's not what this hardware is being set up for. It's designed to keep a lid on you just as much as anything else.
why get your panties in a wad for a device you would NEVER buy in a million years anyway?
Well I won't knowing that it's been deliberately crippled. I do buy "designed for windows N" hardware now because until this point it didn't guarantee that I would be locked out or forced to perform contortions to put whatever OS I wanted on it.
there are many guys like System76 busting their asses trying to support you and if you don't buy from them and support Linux then you're just being assholes
They make nice large laptops, no tablets or cellphones. But yeah, I can't wait until my choice in hardware is reduced to a tiny handful of companies because Microsoft has manipulated the rest of it into being exclusive to them. That's fucked up and BROKEN.
But bitching about Win 8 ARM not letting you boot Linux when most of you wouldn't piss on a Win 8 anything is just bitching for the sake of being a bitch and more than a little pointless, okay
Gimme a fucking break. I'd buy a Windows 8 device... if it would let me do as I wished up to and including replacing Windows 8. But now I know that since I can't, no I won't. And I'll bitch that choices are being deliberately limited by an anti-competitive monopolist. To ignore the moves being made here is foolish in the extreme.
FIGHT HARD, O WHITE KNIGHT! MICROSOFT SHALL SURELY REWARD YE IN THE END!
As I understand it this is about what the firmware loads having to be signed.
On ARM, the devices cannot trust any signatures but the ones they're loaded with and I am skeptical keys for any other OS will be allowed on Windows branded tablets.
This has nothing to do with the GPLv3.
Either by someone cracking the signing key
Crack AES-128 or better? GFLWT.
They might make using this signed GRUB illegal, but on what gounds?
Well, distributing it would be a violation of the GPLv3 if the key itself wasn't also available. Of course, I wouldn't trust a random binary downloaded off some FTP site.
Do you seriously think that MS is going to let a vendor ship Windows on a device without their logo on it? Doubtful.
the manufacturers don't have to sell them with Windows either, they could sell them with Linux.
We've said that with PCs as well. Look where that went.
Hinder and slow it? Android dominates MS in the tablet market as it is.
Yeah, which is precisely why Microsoft is doing their little patent protection racket against every Android vendor in the market. They want to weaken Android and raise the cost of using it so that the vendors give up.
The tablet market is already saturated with devices that don't have the Windows logo.
Go do it. I asked you to go find me core system hardware that doesn't have the Windows logo on it.
Yeah look at how the ipad has destroyed the world with its lockdown
Sure, it's causing bullshit lock down and walled gardens to spread.
It's hard enough that no one outside of people with access to high end rework labs and the ability to repair damaged PCBs and reball SoCs is going to be able to do it. So claiming that "it's possible" with that degree of difficulty and barrier to entry is at best a sad, sad joke.
Microsoft is working very hard to drive Android out of the market. They want the mobile space to reflect the desktop space, only with even less options.
You certainly are aggresively defending Microsoft's actions here.
you don't buy a hammer if what you need is a screwdriver
No, but nothing is stopping me from using the hammer for whatever purposes I see fit.
just like you don't buy a device specifically designed for an operating system if you want to run a different operating system
None of these devices are specifically designed for Windows. Microsoft is simply requiring that vendors place onerous restrictions on what end users can do in exchange for being able to release a tablet with Windows 8 on it.
What sort of entitlement complex do you have when you get to the point of thinking companies have to build devices that are everything to everyone?
I love how the argument suddenly becomes an "entitlement complex" to people defending Microsoft. Simple fact is that this is a problem being created from whole cloth by Microsoft, to take away what we've had for decades while not truly making anyone more secure, but definitely hindering alternative operating system platforms.
The Windows logo no longer indicates a platform advantage
Sorry, no. It's a HUGE platform advantage, because they can place the same logo on tablets and desktops. The catch with the Windows 8 tablet is the software is available only via the store. This is great for Microsoft, because they can say "buy the software for Windows 8 on our store, and you can use it on both your desktop and tablet!"
So they link the desktop monopoly to the tablet space, and leverage it to extend their reach into another.
A manufacturer can still make an ARM device that runs Windows and allow Linux as well -- they just can't put the Windows logo on it.
Can they? I deeply suspect that Microsoft will make OEMs agree that any and all tablets running Windows will meet the logo requirements, or they won't get the OEM agreement they want (IE no Windows for your tablets.)
The problem is stupid consumers who demand to see that logo.
And that's exactly what Microsoft is banking on. Oh and finding some way to drive Android out of the market.
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Basis for this statement?
Sounds like you believe the lies of the LDS. No, the Justice Dept. can't do anything to religious institutions being discriminatory. The First Amendment ensures that.
Really? Basis for this statement too?
Subtle NAMBLA troll? How much did you pay for the account?
So you are disgusted by both, but choose to take it out on gays? Yeah, that makes sense.
Sure it is. When the source of your video signal no longer includes a DAC to generate the VGA signal, there's no point in including the connector on the mainboard. If Intel and AMD are dropping VGA support for their integrated GPUs, then your only option will be an external GPU for VGA. And even then the significantly reduced usefulness of a VGA port means it'll be rapidly dropped from new monitors.
I haven't seen a recent board with a parallel port. Even serial ports have been reduced to headers on the motherboard that you need to cable out (and even that's missing on some hardware.)
HDCP will work over DVI. HDMI is just DVI with a different form factor and audio/USB lines.
Well that's cute. Show me how it's impossible?
I think expecting a rational, well explained response from you is asking too much.
Ah look. It's the Apple Zealot who refuses to acknowledge that it is entirely possible to have good software that is cross platform.
The caveat is that it doesn't matter who is first, or even who comes later. It's who gets the school districts and universities to mandate their platform as the source of all textbooks for all students. They get a guaranteed stream of tax dollars, and long term customers who will be familiar with their platform.
Personally, I would prefer DRM-free PDFs or interactive and cross platform HTML 5 "books" that didn't mandate a platform.
Lots of people have owned Motorola DROID devices, they're actually quite popular and have been attacked frequently. They use the same security system on all of the devices, and none of them have been bypassed.
The Nook Tablet employs the same security system and while a sorta-workaround was found, it's virtually guaranteed to be fixed in the next system update, which will lock out new devices.
Because each distribution builds its own GRUB, possibly with a different version of the compiler making each one different. Unless you want to coordinate every Linux distro to use a single source for a single build of GRUB.
Correct, however that's not the hard part. The hard part will be getting the key included by default on all the possible devices that users might install it on. And this doesn't even account for live cds and live usb keys, which may not even use GRUB.
Well technically they don't. Canonical could run around and try to ensure every new device includes their key. Microsoft doesn't have to worry though, since it's guaranteed that it will be included.
Nonsense. One could have been established or chosen independent of Microsoft, but I suspect that MS and Apple both enjoy the, "decentralized" you might call it, nature of keys that give them the advantage.
And I doubt one will crop up.
It's basically a problem being solved in the way most advantageous and convenient to Microsoft, and Microsoft using their position to ensure it is done that way.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that UEFI secure boot is illegitimate. The problem is the process seems to be slanted entirely in Microsoft's favor.
Every distro would have to get their GRUB signed. If you ran something like Gentoo, you would need to have YOUR GRUB build signed. And your key would either need to be available on the system, or you would need to be able to install it.
The problem stems from systems where the keys can't be updated. Distributing GRUB for those platforms would be a GPLv3 violation, unless you included the key used to sign it as welll, which will never happen.
Well, now who is being obtuse. I thought this was a discussion about the upcoming Windows 8 devices, now suddenly it's RIGHT NOW? Holy shit, way to arbitrarily shift contexts when it suits you for the insult!
How can they control who buys Windows, with respect to hardware OEMs? Easy, you can only get such licenses from Microsoft. Was that really so hard?
That's effectively what they did for a large part of the XBOX and XBOX360's lifetime.
Google came out competing fairly, and left Microsoft scrambling to catch up. Microsoft, however, has a reputation for breaking the law and doing many questionable things to ensure that they take control of a market segment and keep others out.
iPad? Hardly. Microsoft likes Apple because they are "competition," but they're pretty much the only competitor Microsoft wants. Both Apple and Microsoft hate Google for daring to enter into the market.
It doesn't. What it requires is that the security mechanism be under the control of the person who owns the device, so that they can sign their own build of GRUB and install it. So Ubuntu could deliver a signed build, but I could add my own key and sign my own build.
Understandably, companies with a fetish for controlling the end-user don't like this.
We're being put into this mess by Microsoft's desire for market control. If you can figure out how to add your keys (or disable secure boot) on your new Designed for Windows 8 motherboard, you can use a UEFI compatible version of GRUB to boot Linux, securely.
So it still puts Microsoft as the arbiter for access to our own property (and I think they're full of shit, in any case) never mind that not just anyone will be able to get a signature. I'm sure they'd love to be in a position of control over the entire industry, especially over competing OSes. It's not like Microsoft hasn't deliberately delayed things intentionally to cause other companies (even partners) trouble.
I have, but again we're just getting started. Microsoft is in this to win and take the market. It took them an entire generation and billions in losses in the console market to be considered anything more than a failure.
Easily. Where do you buy licenses for the ARM version of Windows 8?
They are, but how popular will they be if Microsoft starts subsidizing the tablets to undercut Android, while pressing the "it runs Windows 8 just like your desktop!" angle?
Hey, give them time. They're just getting started with their rampage.
Yeah, Windows owns 90% of the desktop market. And now you can get it on your tablet too!
The "world" is largely unaware of how computers function as a whole. But it's gotten people like you to come out and defend their spread.
While such alternates are available. Microsoft is working hard to ensure they cease to be.
And I'll be amazed if I ever see an ARM device running Windows 8 that doesn't have the logo on it. I suspect it'll never happen.
Yup, we should just STFU and let the two biggest companies in consumer computing shut down all but each other as options in the market.
But none of how that works is defined, so chances are each vendor will have a different way of doing it and when that happens, the likelihood of automating the process goes way down (if it was ever possible) and the barriers to entry go way, way up.
Of course not. They want to undercut Android and drive it out of the market. Prices will probably jump back up (but the security won't be relaxed) if they succeed.
If Microsoft succeeds in their obvious goal of eliminating all other choices aside from Apple, nope, it won't be. Because there will be no choice.
Because a company with a powerful monopoly known for acting in anti-competitive manners is establishing requirements that make it extremely difficult, and in some cases impossible, for alternative software platforms to be used on these devices.
Sure, sure. I would too. But that's not what this hardware is being set up for. It's designed to keep a lid on you just as much as anything else.
Well I won't knowing that it's been deliberately crippled. I do buy "designed for windows N" hardware now because until this point it didn't guarantee that I would be locked out or forced to perform contortions to put whatever OS I wanted on it.
They make nice large laptops, no tablets or cellphones. But yeah, I can't wait until my choice in hardware is reduced to a tiny handful of companies because Microsoft has manipulated the rest of it into being exclusive to them. That's fucked up and BROKEN.
Gimme a fucking break. I'd buy a Windows 8 device... if it would let me do as I wished up to and including replacing Windows 8. But now I know that since I can't, no I won't. And I'll bitch that choices are being deliberately limited by an anti-competitive monopolist. To ignore the moves being made here is foolish in the extreme.
FIGHT HARD, O WHITE KNIGHT! MICROSOFT SHALL SURELY REWARD YE IN THE END!
On ARM, the devices cannot trust any signatures but the ones they're loaded with and I am skeptical keys for any other OS will be allowed on Windows branded tablets.
This has nothing to do with the GPLv3.
Crack AES-128 or better? GFLWT.
Well, distributing it would be a violation of the GPLv3 if the key itself wasn't also available. Of course, I wouldn't trust a random binary downloaded off some FTP site.
The desktop, of course.
No, but OEMs are dependent on Windows to move desktops.
Microsoft has more power than that and you know it.
Just like the Motorola devices, whose boot chain is still unbroken and as a result hinders the ability for true 3rd party ROMs to appear?
Do you seriously think that MS is going to let a vendor ship Windows on a device without their logo on it? Doubtful.
We've said that with PCs as well. Look where that went.
Yeah, which is precisely why Microsoft is doing their little patent protection racket against every Android vendor in the market. They want to weaken Android and raise the cost of using it so that the vendors give up.
Go do it. I asked you to go find me core system hardware that doesn't have the Windows logo on it.
Sure, it's causing bullshit lock down and walled gardens to spread.
It's hard enough that no one outside of people with access to high end rework labs and the ability to repair damaged PCBs and reball SoCs is going to be able to do it. So claiming that "it's possible" with that degree of difficulty and barrier to entry is at best a sad, sad joke.
Microsoft is working very hard to drive Android out of the market. They want the mobile space to reflect the desktop space, only with even less options.
You certainly are aggresively defending Microsoft's actions here.
No, but nothing is stopping me from using the hammer for whatever purposes I see fit.
None of these devices are specifically designed for Windows. Microsoft is simply requiring that vendors place onerous restrictions on what end users can do in exchange for being able to release a tablet with Windows 8 on it.
I love how the argument suddenly becomes an "entitlement complex" to people defending Microsoft. Simple fact is that this is a problem being created from whole cloth by Microsoft, to take away what we've had for decades while not truly making anyone more secure, but definitely hindering alternative operating system platforms.
Sorry, no. It's a HUGE platform advantage, because they can place the same logo on tablets and desktops. The catch with the Windows 8 tablet is the software is available only via the store. This is great for Microsoft, because they can say "buy the software for Windows 8 on our store, and you can use it on both your desktop and tablet!"
So they link the desktop monopoly to the tablet space, and leverage it to extend their reach into another.
Can they? I deeply suspect that Microsoft will make OEMs agree that any and all tablets running Windows will meet the logo requirements, or they won't get the OEM agreement they want (IE no Windows for your tablets.)
And that's exactly what Microsoft is banking on. Oh and finding some way to drive Android out of the market.
Irrelevant. They control Windows and the APIs that it delivers.