I agree. The UK is a perfectly safe, free, great place to live, but not for much longer. To deny that is to ignore everything else that was written earlier in the thread.
1. Vaguely true in the UK. More accurately true in the US.
You know, I doubt many people outside the US remember that Bush stole TWO elections.
2. Definitely true in the US, the UK played along...
Much the same I think. One can understand paranoia better if 9/11 happens in your country. The UK has been fighting terrorists forever. Did you know Blair is refusing independent scrutiny of what happened on 7/7?
3. HAHAHAHA!
I can't believe they're both still there. Bush at least was a bit more
honest than Blair. How's the plan to impeach Bush going?
4. Yes, true for the UK. Since when has Bush needed a mandate from the
people for anything?
Now we're getting to why the US is better off than the UK: your constitution.
We have lost pretty much every right that we had in the last 2 years.
5. At least the UK has some controls!!
No, it really doesn't. Even though we know Blair lied over the invasion,
we can't impeach him. He is only accountable in the sense that Brown might
one day grow a pair and challenge him.
6. and how many people are there in the US who DONT have a driving license?
True. Hope you guys don't get anything like we're getting. And
at least you have your guns...;)
All sadly correct, although until yesterday I was hoping that Mr Cameron would repeal these laws.
Initially, the Belmarsh detainees were locked up under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. It has subsequently been reported that many of them were never even questioned.
The Law Lords rightly ruled that this contravened the Human Rights Act.
The Govt then hastily drafted the Prevention of Terror 2005 Act aka Control Orders and forced it through on the threat that, without it, dangerous people would be released into the public - another lie because 2 days later, all the Belmarsh detainees were released anyway.
PoT 2005 removed the right for innocent Britons to not be detained indefinitely without trial. The supposed 'Sunset Clause' was renewed without even a vote.
One can't help but notice the similarities to 1930s Germany: 1. A Govt without a proper mandate that 2. Blamed terrorists to excuse 3. Starting illegal wars for resources, 4. Passed an enabling Bill, 5. Abolished Parliament democratic controls and 6. Made everyone get ID cards.
No2ID is the main opposition to the ID
Cards scheme. These guys are truly wonderful people though currently somewhat gutted
that the Tories sold them out & didn't even have the decency to warn them.
* National Identity Registration Number
* the number of any ID card issued
* allocated national insurance number
* the number of any relevant immigration document
* the number of their United Kingdom passport
* the number of any passport issued to the individual by or on behalf of the
authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on
behalf of an international organisation
* the number of any document that can be used by them (in some or all circumstances)
instead of a passport;
* the number of any identity card issued to him/her by the authorities of a
country or territory outside the United Kingdom
* any reference number allocated to him/her by the secretary of state in connection
with an application made by him for permission to enter or to remain in the
United Kingdom
* the number of any work permit relating to him/her;
* any driver number given to him/her by a driving licence;
* the number of any designated document which is held by him/her and is a document
the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs
In other words, primary keys to all the major Government databases.
The only one that isn't on there is our medical records, but that's why we're
all being given a special number, the National Identity Registration Number
(NIRN). When this is added to databases, it will be a piece of cake for
Government to index our medical records as well.
I'm sure most people here understands databases, but for those who don't, this
means the Government are creating a big database on innocent citizens.
In fact, it's by far the most intrusive database ever. China doesn't have
anything this intrusive. The Stasi didn't. Even North Korea doesn't.
ANPR means we're already being tracked around the clock and will be linked
via your driving license number. If your ISP asks for your NIRN, find
a new one.
The Tories betrayed the country on this one. Well done Mr Blair, you
created Orwell's 1984.
Internment was abolished before Thatcher - and reintroduced by Blair.
The Govt has threatened to repeal the HRA many times, as did Howard.
Hitler's Enabling Bill & CCA are almost exactly the same: in the event of an emergency, the Govt gets practically unlimited legal powers. Whether Blair is another Hitler is yet to be seen.
You are wrong about LRRB. Unlike CCA, it can currently amend itself.
CCA is pretty much the same as Hitler's Enabling Bill. Didn't stop him.
While LRRB says it's about secondary legislation, it can be used to
amend our most important laws eg Bill of Rights, HRA, CCA, Parliament Act.
It can even amend itself (although how much more enabling it can get I don't
know).
In regard to your earlier question, I don't remember Thatcher locking up innocent
people indefinitely, going to war on Iraq or condoning torture.
No, it's opposing the New Labour because they are the biggest threat to this country since Napolean (and excluding Hitler). I suggest you read some of the comments on this board.
That's a really bizarre way of saying that no single group can amend the constitution
without the other groups' permission.
Thanks to our lack of a codified constitution, we have lost the right to a
fair trial! We can be legally arrested for pretty much anything and have DNA
samples kept permanently on record. We have lost a second House with the power to keep the first House in check. Therapist-client confidentiality privilege
is gone etc
Unfortunately, the horrendous Legislative
and Regulatory Reform Bill is just another attempt by Tony Blair to create
astonishing powers for himself or future dictators.
His Government just blocked
an amendment that would prevent LRRB being used to abolish elections, imprison
everyone etc.
We have already had the Civil
Contingencies aka Nazi Enabling Act which gives near unlimited powers to
Ministers in the event of an emergency (eg burning down the Reichstag).
We have already had the dreadful Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act forced
upon us. RIPA can force ISPs to secretly install mass surveillance equipment
or imprison you if you do not release your PGP keys.
And the insidious Identity Cards Bill is hanging like a Sword of Damocles over
British privacy and freedom. ID cards are just a front for an unbelievably
intrusive database that would make the Stasi blush. The excellent
No2ID campaign cannot persuade the House
of Lords to hold this up for much longer...
Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come
from the subjects of it... The history of liberty is a history of limitations
of governmental power, not the increase of it.
Whether you consider it your duty to protect Britain's freedom or whether it
is merely expedient because you'd like to live here, please write
to your MP and join the many campaigners who are dedicating their lives
to this fight.
Yes! I would pay £200 for something like that. I did notice you could get an IR virtual keyboard for ~£100 these days, but you won't always have a flat surface.
I think a palm-sized device with chording keys built in to the edge could be a killer piece of hardware.
Still waiting for a modern device with a Qwerty keyboard as good as the Psion 5MX...
We are heading towards a police state faster than 1930s Germany and probably
less than 0.1% of the population are doing a thing to stop it.
It's scary to see how quickly the defences against fascism which we've evolved
over a millenium have been dismantled. Assuming you're a US citizen, defend
your Constitution with your life. And stop rendition and Guantanamo, for
God's sake.
I have been talking with the House of Lords (our second House) about opposing
the ID Cards Bill and although they understand the Orwellian implications, they're
scared to oppose it in case Blair abolishes the Lords altogether.
I sympathise. It's hard to imagine a man who wanted to bomb a news broadcaster is still the most powerful man in the world. At least you know you're getting rid of him in 3 years.
He is also undergoing all kinds of investigation which our PM doesn't - remember Blair has been caught lying over the invasion and nobody has yet been able to hold him to account.
You can also point to that line which was crossed eg with the NSA surveillance.
Slashdot Mirror
I agree. The UK is a perfectly safe, free, great place to live, but not for much longer. To deny that is to ignore everything else that was written earlier in the thread.
1. Vaguely true in the UK. More accurately true in the US.
You know, I doubt many people outside the US remember that Bush stole TWO elections.
2. Definitely true in the US, the UK played along...
Much the same I think. One can understand paranoia better if 9/11 happens in your country. The UK has been fighting terrorists forever. Did you know Blair is refusing independent scrutiny of what happened on 7/7?
3. HAHAHAHA!
I can't believe they're both still there. Bush at least was a bit more honest than Blair. How's the plan to impeach Bush going?
4. Yes, true for the UK. Since when has Bush needed a mandate from the people for anything?
Now we're getting to why the US is better off than the UK: your constitution. We have lost pretty much every right that we had in the last 2 years.
5. At least the UK has some controls!!
No, it really doesn't. Even though we know Blair lied over the invasion, we can't impeach him. He is only accountable in the sense that Brown might one day grow a pair and challenge him.
6. and how many people are there in the US who DONT have a driving license?
True. Hope you guys don't get anything like we're getting. And at least you have your guns... ;)
All sadly correct, although until yesterday I was hoping that Mr Cameron would repeal these laws.
Initially, the Belmarsh detainees were locked up under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. It has subsequently been reported that many of them were never even questioned.
The Law Lords rightly ruled that this contravened the Human Rights Act.
The Govt then hastily drafted the Prevention of Terror 2005 Act aka Control Orders and forced it through on the threat that, without it, dangerous people would be released into the public - another lie because 2 days later, all the Belmarsh detainees were released anyway.
PoT 2005 removed the right for innocent Britons to not be detained indefinitely without trial. The supposed 'Sunset Clause' was renewed without even a vote.
One can't help but notice the similarities to 1930s Germany:
1. A Govt without a proper mandate that
2. Blamed terrorists to excuse
3. Starting illegal wars for resources,
4. Passed an enabling Bill,
5. Abolished Parliament democratic controls and
6. Made everyone get ID cards.
Nah, the Civil Contingencies 2004 Act is the Enabling Bill. Pretty much the same one Hitler invoked by burning down the Reichstag.
Because we still have a Queen, it's debatable how far Herr Blair would push such emergency powers.
Blair's modus operandi is to sneak through totalitarianism without anyone noticing. Hence LRRB.
Oh, did anyone mention already that our ID cards will contain RFID chips?
r nham.jpg
http://www.bristol-no2id.org.uk/download-files/Bu
No2ID is the main opposition to the ID Cards scheme. These guys are truly wonderful people though currently somewhat gutted that the Tories sold them out & didn't even have the decency to warn them.
Transexuals are to be given 2 ID cards, although the Govt are still making this up as they go along...
* National Identity Registration Number
* the number of any ID card issued
* allocated national insurance number
* the number of any relevant immigration document
* the number of their United Kingdom passport
* the number of any passport issued to the individual by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation
* the number of any document that can be used by them (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
* the number of any identity card issued to him/her by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom
* any reference number allocated to him/her by the secretary of state in connection with an application made by him for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom
* the number of any work permit relating to him/her;
* any driver number given to him/her by a driving licence;
* the number of any designated document which is held by him/her and is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs
In other words, primary keys to all the major Government databases. The only one that isn't on there is our medical records, but that's why we're all being given a special number, the National Identity Registration Number (NIRN). When this is added to databases, it will be a piece of cake for Government to index our medical records as well.
I'm sure most people here understands databases, but for those who don't, this means the Government are creating a big database on innocent citizens. In fact, it's by far the most intrusive database ever. China doesn't have anything this intrusive. The Stasi didn't. Even North Korea doesn't.
ANPR means we're already being tracked around the clock and will be linked via your driving license number. If your ISP asks for your NIRN, find a new one.
The Tories betrayed the country on this one. Well done Mr Blair, you created Orwell's 1984.
Next up, the Democracy Bypass Bill. God help us all.
We seem to be arguing minor points.
My simple and unrefuted point is that Blair has and still is laying legal groundwork for totalitarianism.
Even if Blair isn't Hitler, what about the next PM? Our country is in dire threat with these massive holes in our constitution.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&rls=en &q=legislative+and+regulatory+%22amend+itself%22&s ourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
You obviously have no argument to say that Blair is different from Hitler. It is merely our joint hope.
I remember the 80s well.
Internment was abolished before Thatcher - and reintroduced by Blair.
The Govt has threatened to repeal the HRA many times, as did Howard.
Hitler's Enabling Bill & CCA are almost exactly the same:
in the event of an emergency, the Govt gets practically unlimited legal powers.
Whether Blair is another Hitler is yet to be seen.
You are wrong about LRRB. Unlike CCA, it can currently amend itself.
No, you can be arrested for any offence. It's clearly stated in the Bill.
A couple more things.
France is rioting again and the US hardly has a good human rights records at the moment (Patriot Act, Gitmo).
SOCPA is also the law that makes every offence arrestable which means your DNA can be taken and permanently stored for eg littering.
Our ID cards are nothing like what they have on the continent. It is an attempt to create by far the world's most intrusive mass surveillance system.
CCA is pretty much the same as Hitler's Enabling Bill. Didn't stop him.
While LRRB says it's about secondary legislation, it can be used to amend our most important laws eg Bill of Rights, HRA, CCA, Parliament Act. It can even amend itself (although how much more enabling it can get I don't know).
In regard to your earlier question, I don't remember Thatcher locking up innocent people indefinitely, going to war on Iraq or condoning torture.
New Labour. You still haven't read anything about LRRB, have you? Nor the Civil Contingencies Act, nor RIPA, nor the ID Cards Bill, nor SOCPA...
When you've read about them I'll discuss Thatcher with you.
No, it's opposing the New Labour because they are the biggest threat to this country since Napolean (and excluding Hitler). I suggest you read some of the comments on this board.
That's a really bizarre way of saying that no single group can amend the constitution without the other groups' permission.
Thanks to our lack of a codified constitution, we have lost the right to a fair trial! We can be legally arrested for pretty much anything and have DNA samples kept permanently on record. We have lost a second House with the power to keep the first House in check. Therapist-client confidentiality privilege is gone etc
Our Govt is now seeking to deprive us of passports unless we join the world's most intrusive mass-surveillance scheme.
Other attacks on British freedom here.
Main comment
We already have our very own Enabling Bill under the Civil Contingencies 2004 Act.
It is exactly the same, except that any future Govt couldn't use it to abolish elections.
This is, of course, where LRRB comes in...
Main comment
I debated with your MP about ID Cards in front of a 40+ mostly Green audience. Needless to say, given the full facts, 90% opposed the scheme.
Yet Mr Drew has continued to vote for this insidious scheme.
He has yet to comment about LRRB on his website have-your-say.
If you can help persuade him against ID Cards as well, let me know.
Main comment
Actually, we already have our Enabling Bill under the Civil Contingencies Act.
It is exactly the same as Hitler's, except that any future Govt couldn't use it to abolish elections.
This is, of course, where LRRB comes in...
Main comment
His Government just blocked an amendment that would prevent LRRB being used to abolish elections, imprison everyone etc.
We have already had the Civil Contingencies aka Nazi Enabling Act which gives near unlimited powers to Ministers in the event of an emergency (eg burning down the Reichstag).
We have already had the dreadful Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act forced upon us. RIPA can force ISPs to secretly install mass surveillance equipment or imprison you if you do not release your PGP keys.
And the insidious Identity Cards Bill is hanging like a Sword of Damocles over British privacy and freedom. ID cards are just a front for an unbelievably intrusive database that would make the Stasi blush. The excellent No2ID campaign cannot persuade the House of Lords to hold this up for much longer...
Other attacks on British freedom here.
As Woodrow Wilson pointed out:
Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it... The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it.
Whether you consider it your duty to protect Britain's freedom or whether it is merely expedient because you'd like to live here, please write to your MP and join the many campaigners who are dedicating their lives to this fight.
Yes! I would pay £200 for something like that. I did notice you could get an IR virtual keyboard for ~£100 these days, but you won't always have a flat surface.
I think a palm-sized device with chording keys built in to the edge could be a killer piece of hardware.
Still waiting for a modern device with a Qwerty keyboard as good as the Psion 5MX...
Things are much worse than that. We've started locking up innocent people indefinitely, using anti-terrorist laws on Holocaust survivors and have introduced a Hitleresque dictatorship law.
Next on the agenda is the world's most intrusive mass surveillance system and a law to bypass Parliamentary scrutiny.
We are heading towards a police state faster than 1930s Germany and probably less than 0.1% of the population are doing a thing to stop it.
It's scary to see how quickly the defences against fascism which we've evolved over a millenium have been dismantled. Assuming you're a US citizen, defend your Constitution with your life. And stop rendition and Guantanamo, for God's sake.
I have been talking with the House of Lords (our second House) about opposing the ID Cards Bill and although they understand the Orwellian implications, they're scared to oppose it in case Blair abolishes the Lords altogether.
I sympathise. It's hard to imagine a man who wanted to bomb a news broadcaster is still the most powerful man in the world. At least you know you're getting rid of him in 3 years.
He is also undergoing all kinds of investigation which our PM doesn't - remember Blair has been caught lying over the invasion and nobody has yet been able to hold him to account.
You can also point to that line which was crossed eg with the NSA surveillance.
That kind of stuff goes on unchecked in the UK.
Your passports have only recently come with RFID chips.
And bombs targetted at specific RFIDs should be picked up by airport security.
But you aren't likely to carry your passport around with you at all times.
You also have a constitution. We only have a Human Rights Act that the Government has already threatened to revoke.
You still haven't read the link. Your Government isn't proposing creating a Surveillance State. Ours is.
Do some research, I doubt I'll bother replying otherwise.