Make an RFID-proof wallet

99luftballon writes "If, like me, you're more than a little concerned about the privacy aspects of RFID there's a useful enthusiast's web page on making your own RFID-blocking wallet. OK, it's never going to win any prizes for beauty or garner fashion awards but should be effective and seems perfectly practical. "

Comments

Effective, but hardly practical.

[TripMaster Monkey]

Article summary is a trifle misleading...I was hoping to see a modification to a real wallet, not a wallet made out of duct tape with foil added.

It seems to me that I could simply line the pockets of my actual wallet with foil...this would have several benefits over the duct-tape wallet:

• Less foil used means less likelihood of your wallet settting off metal detectors at the airport.
  
• Ability to remove foil when asked by TSA means I don't lose my wallet the first time I try to board an airplane with it.
  
• Conventional wallet appearance means I can take out my wallet in public without looking like a gigantic nerd.
  
• Avoiding duct tape design means my wallet won't ooze adhesive, get stuck in my pocket, randomly glue money and cards to itself, etc.
  
• Avoiding duct tape design insures my wallet can actually survive the occasional trip through the washer and dryer.

I'll admit that the duct tape wallet has a certain Red Green-esque appeal, but I'd rather have a more practical solution.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

Conventional wallet appearance means I can take out my wallet in public without looking like a gigantic nerd.

Considering how often you get a FP on slashdot... I don't think your wallet is going to make the slighest difference ;-)

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[tktk]

Conventional wallet appearance means I can take out my wallet in public without looking like a gigantic nerd.

For some Slashdotters, this is already too late.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[im_mac]

I don't know about you, but at the airport my wallet & keys generally go into the handy plastic basket that goes around the metal detector. I don't foresee any problems with metal detectors. Now being labelled a huge nerd... I can't argue with that.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[bombadillo]

My father in law has a duct tape wallet. It's proven to be very sturdy and no oozing adhesive. My wife ordered it as a gift. The best thing is that when the wallet did wear in one spot he recieved great customer service from the company. They not only sent him replacement duct tape they sent him an additional duct tape wallet at no charge.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[SpaghettiPattern]

...I was hoping to see a modification to a real wallet, not a wallet made out of duct tape with foil added...

And 49 willing vergins? C'mon, this is /., if it works it's fashionable...enough.

I bet even RMS wants one.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

It seems to me that I could simply line the pockets of my actual wallet with foil...this would have several benefits over the duct-tape wallet:

it would also last about five hours before wearing and needing replacement. I'd wager a properly constructed duct tape wallet with the foil embedded would last an order of magnitude longer than a quick fix foil solution.

It's all a moot point anyway as RFID technology will quickly pass the point where simply tin foil will prevent remote snooping.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

Emvelope.com has a practical solution.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

How's that? Will the laws of physics change?

Last I checked, a Faraday cage blocks radio waves, a critical component of RADIO Frequency Identification...

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[A beautiful mind]

Remember, it is not the size of the wallet, it is how you use it, matters!

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Captain Splendid]

First post and a Red Green reference!

Is there nything you can't do?

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[valkoinen]

All of this could be avoided by lining the wallet pocket with aluminium foil. Not only would you get all the same benefits, but you could still use your rfid-based buss-pass without having to dig it out of the wallet.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Obvius]

Sorry, but adding foil to your pocket is *more* likely to set airport detectors off. They detect anything highly conductive, which in most cases means metal. Foil is conductive so you're not going to mask the metal in your pocket by wrapping it in foil.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[poincaraux]

it would also last about five hours before wearing and needing replacement. I'd wager a properly constructed duct tape wallet with the foil embedded would last an order of magnitude longer than a quick fix foil solution.

wow, an order of magnitude longer, eh? that's over two whole days! sign me up! :)

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, today President Bush requested congress pass a new bill mandatings special exemptions to the laws of physics for national security agencies.

Mr. Bush said: "We're working. We're working hard, passing new laws to make sure our country is safe from terrorists. Those old laws were getting in our way. We need to prevent them from brining nucular devices into our country."

When asked about the new bill proposal by the President, the head of the National Science Foundation hung his head and walked away, quietly crying.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

Article summary is a trifle misleading...I was hoping to see a modification to a real wallet, not a wallet made out of duct tape with foil added.

That's because you have flawed logic. It mentions nothing about modification. The title simply states "Make a wallet."

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[morgan_greywolf]

Ability to remove foil when asked by TSA means I don't lose my wallet the first time I try to board an airplane with it.

Not likely, actually. My wife is a former TSA employee (who couldn't stay on due to a health condition which precluded her from passing the now-required military medical examination), and from I've discussed with her, it actually isn't likely that you would lose the wallet. Metal objects can be taken on an airplane without too much difficulty as long as they can't be used as a stabbing weapon or a gun or something like that. For example, a wedding ring would definitely set off the metal detectors, but there's no reason you couldn't take it on the plane because it can't be used to kill anyone (well, it can for a specially-trained individual, but that's another story).

In fact, with the recent security changes made by DHS, it isn't likely that you would even get a small pocket knife taken from you anymore.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[ottothecow]

I have a duct tape wallet that I have had for a little over a year (got its first patch last night) and it is literally the best wallet I have ever owned. It is much slimmer than my previous wallet--with my average amount of stuff, it is actually the same thickness as the empty old wallety--and still has every feature I wanted: an ID pocket viewable from the outside, a card/photo holder insert, and a snap closure pouch thats handy for two quarters. I no longer use the pouch or the outer ID pocket (I used to have a card that needed the face barcode scanned several times a day, so it was nice) but I still love the wallet.

Now really, I see no reason for an RFID blocking wallet. The chicago public transit system (CTA) uses RFID fare cards linked to a credit card. I am able to sucessfully disable them simply by carrying them around for a while. I have literally gone through 2 or 3 (still trying to decide if the last one is really dead) of the damned cards...they seem fine until one day I try to get on a bus or train and they simply stop working (this is especially painful now that they do not give cash transfers). The cards are carried with magnetic cards that still worl and are in good condition with nothing that wouldnt be considered minor cosmetic damage on a credit card. Unfortunately a minor dent in the right place seems to be enough to toast the RFID antenna.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[demachina]

"It's all a moot point anyway as RFID technology will quickly pass the point where simply tin foil will prevent remote snooping."

I think we are rapidly heading towards the sad day that if you are out in public WITHOUT a bunch of RFID tags broadcasting your ID at every portal you walk through that will flag you as a "person of interest" and lead to you being taken aside by security for questioning and possible detention. There will no doubt be other biometric measures to spot check and validate you are wearing the correct dog tags. Of course sometime soon we will begin to implanted the RFID tags at birth soon so at least minor surgery will be required to forge them. This will be done, of course, "to protect the children" from foul play.

It would seem to me that with the current post 9/11, government and media hyped, paranoia that we are rapidly heading to a point where every government/business (and the two have so fused they are nearly one) is going to want to instantly know and validate the ID of everyone and instantaneously judge your threat level based on your credit history, criminal record, ethnic background and religious affiliation(Arab Muslim in particular). The day is coming soon where you will need clean RFID tags to enter any business, government office, subway station, or wait at a bus stop.

What a wonderful safe world we would live in if it we could instantly spot a potential terrorist waiting for a bus and a send a team to rendition them to a prison in Eastern Europe for disposal. Minority report without the problematic R&D needed to develop the psychics. The psychics will be database miners who will spot and flag anyone whose daily routine of movement and financial transactions doesn't conform to social norms. The DOD and Poindexter in particular have already started this program several times. When its exposed and the outrage builds against it they just move it, rename it and continue developing it. This program really needs pervasive RFID tags to extend the database though.

I often wonder how America and Britain survived before we had technology and started down the actual road to big brother police states. In the early 20th century you had "anarchists" filling the role of "terrorist" seeking to tear down civilization yet we mostly survived without a pervasive police state. Ironically civilization nearly destroyed itself in the overreaction when "anarchists", (though they were more nationalists than anarchists) killed an Arch Duke and the so called civilized world proceeded to nearly destroy itself with World War I.

In the 30's we had bank robbers like Dillinger roving the country side and crossing state boundaries with impunity. If we had a pervasive police state, RFID tags and a national database, they wouldn't have lasted a week. Ironically at the time many people sided with, and idolized, the bank robbers for retaliating against the government and financial system that had wiped out their jobs and their life savings in the depression (a depression which rose out of a frenzied stockmart bubble of the roaring 20's where the stock brokers and stock market players were a million times more destructive and criminal than Dillinger ever was).

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[theguyfromsaturn]

If you read my sig, you know why I want the duc(t/k) tape one.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[AVryhof]

Good idea, just a few modifications.

Use Naugyhide for the wallet rather than duct tape. Sew it together (if you don't know how to sew they lady in the house above your basement does). Use a few plies of industrial aluminum foil so it doesn't crumble after being folded over and over again.

Duct tape is good for some things, but not quite as nice as using good materials to make a decent product.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Anonymous Coward]

Article summary is a trifle misleading...I was hoping to see a modification to a real wallet, not a wallet made out of duct tape with foil added.

Maybe, but the title clearly says, "Make an RFID-proof wallet" not "Make a wallet RFID-proof".

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[jasonditz]

I'd say RTFA, but I don't think it'd help (it's light on theory).

Probably start here, then head here for some background on what is being done here.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[ledvinap]

Hmm ... inserting sheet of metal (aluminium may be ok, copper may be a little bit better) will do the trick.

Unless someone uses reader with strog enough field and good sensitivity. I was able to read Mifare card completely wrapped in Al foil (single layer ... more powerfull op-amp was too expensive ;-)

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[iamhassi]

"Conventional wallet appearance means I can take out my wallet in public without looking like a gigantic nerd."

Not only is it RFID-proof it's getting-laid proof too!

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[lhand]

"Not only is it RFID-proof it's getting-laid proof too!"

Best way for most of us to get laid is to pull out the wallet.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[AuMatar]

TO be fair, the archduke Ferdinand's death was not really the cause of WWI. Germany was looking for an excuse to go to war, the death was merely a convenient one. I agree with the rest of your points though.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[wiredlogic]

Considering how often you get a FP on slashdot... I don't think your wallet is going to make the slighest difference ;-)

As if the hot grits all over his clothes didn't already give him away.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[sepluv]

I could simply line the pockets of my actual wallet with foil

If you were a real geek your actual wallet would be a duct-tape wallet.

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[macosxaddict]

What's in YOUR wallet?

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[Atario]

Avoiding duct tape design insures my wallet can actually survive the occasional trip through the washer and dryer.

Wait. You put your wallet through the laundry? Is it empty emough that you don't notice it in your clothes? You have coins made of Upsidasium in there or what?

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[TripMaster Monkey]

Is it empty emough that you don't notice it in your clothes?

I'm married.

      ^_^

Re:Effective, but hardly practical.

[demachina]

Well that's a subject for debate. The assassination of the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne by Serbian nationalists pretty much insured Austro-Hungarian retaliation against Serbia. There are substantial parallels to 9/11 and U.S. retaliation against Afghanistan, excepting Afghanistan had no allies other than Pakistan and their dictator turned on Afghanistan to curry favor with the U.S.

The Russian's are historically, politically and ethnically aligned with the Serbs which pretty much insured they would attack Austro-Hungary in defense of the Serbs. Russia was more than a little unhappy over the NATO war against Serbia over Kosovo due to the same ties. That tripped the domino effect among the alliances, Germany coming to Austro-Hungary's aid and France to Russia's.

The Serbian front in World War I is largely forgotten. The Serbs mounted a valiant defense initially but they were eventually routed and forced in to a long retreat through mountains that nearly turned in to genocide.

Why would I want to do that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then I'd have the inconvenience of having to remove my Metro Smartrip card from my wallet everytime I enter or exit a station.

Re:Why would I want to do that?

[sco08y]

Since my ID is checked several times a day (military), I have a wallet with an external ID window. You could secure an inside compartment on such a wallet to give the best security / usefulness compromise.

Re:Why would I want to do that?

[savorymedia]

BINGO. I carry a wallet that's tiny anyway. No money--just cards. If I had to take my SmarTrip card out every time I had to get on the Metro, I'd end up going postal.

The Artist's Medium

[eldavojohn]

I used to make duct tape wallets in high school but had a very bad experience with them. Most duct tape has a shiny backside that isn't very cohesive with the sticky substance on the underside. What happens is when these overlap or your design depends on these two surfaces to stick together, you get a mess.

Now, there may be some kind of duct tape out there that avoids this issue, I'm not sure. Maybe these guys would know which brand is best but my wallet nearly destroyed my license at the time. Essentially, you need to look for duct tape that will adequately hold against itself when you need it to. After years of sliding it in and out of my back pocket and sitting on it, the tape started to smear against the shiny part and separate. As a result, the goo (bottom ply) and meshing (middle ply) were slipping out from underneath the shiny part (top ply) and getting goo all over my cards and ID.

Essentially, it comes down to how many mils of adhesive you are working with. A lot of times, the more expensive stuff will have around 12 mils of glue which means that it is ideal for construction. However, this may result in more sliding and more goo seepage in your wallet. I would recommend something in between the range of 7.5 and 12 mils. You're not going to be concerned about tensile strength, just thickness and what the coating is on the back. If the coating is non bonding to the adhesive used, you don't want that tape!

The actual design can be very much up to you although the article does provide a link to a nice standard model. I would suggest to try to use as many whole pieces as possible and when you're thinking about the design, rely on adhesive/adhesive bonds instead of adhesive/polyethylene since the cohesion is vastly different.

So if you venture on this, for the love of god, RESEARCH THE TAPE! Honestly, I estimate the life of these things to be a month unless you want to also pay for a new license often. I think back to my dad's wallet which was this old beat up piece of leather with its seams showing. But he's had it as long as I can remember and that thing has taken a beating. There's a reason why wallets are made from leather.

Remember, if you can't fix something with duct tape and WD-40, you're just not trying hard enough :-).

If it's not stuck and it's supposed to be, duct tape it. If it's stuck and it's not supposed to be, WD-40 it. If it's not broken--keep me away from it!

Re:The Artist's Medium

[jollyroger1210]

Wikipedia says so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape duct tape

Re:The Artist's Medium

[XMilkProject]

In highschool I was a technician in the theater, and I can tell you from experience Gaff Tape is a FAR superior medium for wallet creation. (And clothing too!)

Re:The Artist's Medium

[Anonymous Coward]

Talking about clothing, I actually made a (rather stiff) t-shirt out of gaff tape one time. Twas quite interesting... to say the least.

--Nick

Re:The Artist's Medium

[Scratched]

I've had a duct tape wallet for quite some time now. I've actually gone through 3 of them over a period of about 5 years. None of them ever wore out, I just thought of more creative things I could do.

My first wallet was made with silver tape, then I found black duct tape so I made one out of that so it would look more like a real wallet, then I thought of a way to make a pocket for my driver's license that had an open window on it, so I made another. I've had that one for over a year now and it's doing just fine.

I've left my wallet in my car on hot days, I've sat on it plenty, put it through a washer and dryer, among other things and it has stood up to it all. I don't get any sticky stuff on my license or credit cards, and nothing smells like duct tape in it.

If I ever have anything that uses RFID I'll probably make a fourth one, but for now nothing I have in my wallet uses RFID.

Re:The Artist's Medium

[XMilkProject]

Yep, I actually had a whole outfit. Pants, Shoes, Shirt, Hat, Wallet. A programmable lighting control board really leaves a technician with nothing to do during hours and hours of performances.... other than make things with Gaff tape.

Note: It's likely a bad idea to wear your new outfit, which is composed of hundreds of dollars worth of gaff tape, in front of anyone you work for in the theater

Re:The Artist's Medium

[72beetle]

> nothing I have in my wallet uses RFID.

You sure about that?

Re:The Artist's Medium

[g0at]

Use gaffer tape, not shit "duct" tape.

Also, I guess by "mils" you mean millimetres? I filled a prescription today, and it talks about "10 mgm" of dose. There is no such measure as "mgm". I presume they meant to write "mg" or milligrams. It drives me crazy how the pharmaceutical industry makes up their own symbols (like "mcg" for micrograms).

-b

Re:The Artist's Medium

[Scratched]

Have you ever actually tried that for yourself?

Read the last paragraph, it will explain it.

Re:The Artist's Medium

[multipartmixed]

> If the coating is non bonding to the adhesive used, you don't want that tape!

If the coating IS bonding to the adhesive... just how do you get it off the roll?

Re:The Artist's Medium

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, PCMag and other technology-driven publications would have nothing to gain by spuriously allaying the fears of the public concerned about the RFID menace.

Sheep.

Re:The Artist's Medium

[duffahtolla]

I guess by "mils" you mean millimetres?

I'm pretty sure he means "mils" as in 1000ths of an inch.

Re:The Artist's Medium

[Splintax]

What the fuck is with you people making duct tape wallets? :-/

uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[kryonD]

So now I have to pull my rail pass out instead of just waiving my wallet or walking near the turn style...doesn't that defeat the point of the RFID objects you have inside your wallet.

Why not just avoid getting the objects if you don't want to use them?

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[xtracto]

I agree, why not just use small tin foil card bag covers like those used for Magic The Gathering or Yoo Gee Ohh (spell?) cards?. That way, you only protect the cards you really dont want to broadcast (those with personal info) and you keep your other cards unprotected!

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[Red Flayer]

"Why not just avoid getting the objects if you don't want to use them?"

Because eventually, you won't have that choice. Passports, Driver's licenses, etc, will all require RFID tags.

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[lawpoop]

You could have a non-foiled outside flap or pocket for items you do want automatically read.

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[G00F]

"Why not just avoid getting the objects if you don't want to use them?"

Because you don't have a choice? Americans are bring forced to carry "papers" to travel, and them have RFID's, and money is also implanted with them, I'm sure there are more things we do not know about like credit cards to track how and who people move about when shopping at walmart.

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[dnoyeb]

This is the technology we use to "tag" whales and birds and whatnot. How ironic...

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[Red Flayer]

At different broadcast power, of course. Radio tags used on animals usually have an internal battery, whereas RFID tags use the incoming signal for power.

Also, animal radio tags are always on, RFID is activated by incoming signal.

Though, my sens of irony is telling me that I just missed the whole point of your post :)

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[Crudely_Indecent]

The problem isn't with RFID. The technology works, it's effective, and it's convenient. RFID allows me to unlock doors with my butt, it gains me access to my datacenter, and my dad has a keyfob that unlocks the door on his vette when he's near the driver door.

Where the problem rears its ugly head is in the misuse of the information present in the RFID tag. When state drivers licenses include an RFID tag, retail stores (and Buddah knows who else) might begin to include RFID scanners capable of retrieving this information. How will they use it?

On the lighter side: A salesman walks up to you with his RFID scanning PDA and says "Hello Mr. Smith, finding everything ok?"

On the darker side: A salesman thinks you were rude to him, so he uses his RFID scanning PDA to save your information, then he visits your house.... For tea and biscuits, of course.

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[ross.w]

It's possible that if you have all your RFID cards together in your wallet, you'll need to pull out each one when you use it.

I once worked in an office where the entry to the building (multiple tenancy) used an RFID card, and the entry to our floor used another similar RFID card.

If the two cards were together they wouldn't read. You had to separate them and only bring the relevant one up to the reader.

If this is common, it doesn't bode well for waving the wallet full of cards at the reader and hoping it picks the right one.

Re:uhhhh...self defeating it seams

[Anonymous Coward]

So make a modified version; put a pocket without RFID-proofing, and use it to store only those items you want available to the outside world. Keep everything else in the protected pockets, and you've got something like UNIX filesystem security. (Except without group attributes, of course) Ideally, you could get an ACL security model, where you could determine what readers could read what cards, but that's not really possible. A protected/unprotected system would get you at least an improvement on security, as RFID becomes more commonly used.
The funny thing is, this solution is suggested in the friendly article. Next time, RTFA!!

RFID proof - pah, we need women proof wallets

[LiquidCoooled]

My missus has a knack of emptying my wallet before I even see the contents!
After securing your wallet against the female gender, RFID should just bounce off by default.

Re:RFID proof - pah, we need women proof wallets

[Otter]

I think one of the benefits of a duct tape and aluminum foil wallet is that it will eliminate pretty much all female-related complexities from your life...

Re:RFID proof - pah, we need women proof wallets

[budgenator]

That is wrong on so many levels. My wife does not go through my wallet nor do I go through her purse. If she sends me to fetch something out of it for her and it isn't right on top, I return the whole purse, no rooting arround to the bottom. That's after being together for 25 years.

Re:RFID proof - pah, we need women proof wallets

[Rashdot]

My missus has a knack of emptying my wallet before I even see the contents!

Mine can spend money before I even earned it.

Which proves that money can exceed the speed of light, once you're married.

Re:RFID proof - pah, we need women proof wallets

[charlesnw]

*shakes head* I wonder why she married you? mmmm? What the poster meant by this was that his wife spends the money out of his wallet. Not that she literally empties it out/inspects it. You need to ligthen up my friend.

Re:RFID proof - pah, we need women proof wallets

[vidnet]

The duct tape alone can ensure that she doesn't venture off where you don't want her.

Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[Fred Or Alive]

...to go with my tinfoil hat!

I really don't get the paranoia about this RFID stuff, they mostly seem like fancy barcodes.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[AcidTag]

Ron Howard could be listening...

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[MarkGriz]

I'm going to make a tinfoil condom for my Speedpass after lunch.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[Red Flayer]

"I really don't get the paranoia about this RFID stuff, they mostly seem like fancy barcodes."

Fancy barcodes that have your personal identifying information them, and can be scanned surreptitiously by any lurker with the right hardware & software.

It's kind of hard not to notice someone trying to scan the barcode tattooed on your neck (plus, you could just wear a turtleneck). It's when they scan the RFID tag in your wallet that you'll never know when THEY are watching you.

/Tinfoil hat half-on, in a rakishly dashing tilt.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[Fred Or Alive]

Considering the reading range on RFID cards is usually a few centimetres, I think I might notice someone trying to put a piece of electronic equipment to my trouser pocket.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[Red Flayer]

Not sure of whether that's innate to the card's broadcast ability, or partially due to the reader. Possible to amplify?

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[geobeck]

...they mostly seem like fancy barcodes.

Fancy barcodes that someone sitting a dozen yards away can scan as you walk past. Watch out for that guy with the laptop at the corner coffee shop. That's not Doom 3 he's playing; it's RFID h4xx0rz!

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[John Hasler]

> Considering the reading range on RFID cards is usually a few
> centimetres, I think I might notice someone trying to put a
> piece of electronic equipment to my trouser pocket.

The range is determined by the reader, not the chip. That "few cm" is the guaranteed range of the manufacturers (fairly low power) readers. Last I saw the record, using a homebrew reader, was 65 feet. This is radio we are talking about. There is no firm range limit.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[John Hasler]

To oversimplify, the tag receives rf transmitted by the reader, rectifies it, and uses the resulting dc to power a transmitter. The range thus depends on the power of the reader's transmitter and the sensitivity of its receiver. As I noted elsewhere, rfid tags have been read at 65 feet using homebrew readers.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[Red Flayer]

Thanks -- wasn't sure on how weak the broadcast was, and whether it was possible to read at a distance. Would weaker broadcasts (with accordingly more sensitive readers) be possible, so that max read distance would be a few centimeters?

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[mattwarden]

Yeah, you know what else are fancy barcodes? Prison numbers. SSNs. etc. Nothing wrong with RFID. It's just a way of identification. What's wrong is what can be done with RFID without the holder's knowledge.

Re:Yay! A tinfoil wallet...

[nospam007]

>>I really don't get the paranoia about this RFID stuff, they mostly seem like fancy barcodes.

Exactly! And the bad guys can check you up from yards away while you walk by their car:

"Let's see if it's worth to mug him....This one has 5 Gold credit cards, 1720$ in cash, the keys to a Ferrari, a 659$ cashmere sweater and the jacket is no fake Prada either 1785$....hey, the italian shoes are my size too and his train card is valid exactly on my home line! Ain't life wonderful?"

Greatest Invention Ever

[BillLeeLee]

Dresses, suits, RFID blocking wallets, is there no clothing or accessory you can't make with duct tape?

I'm sure we'll be replacing our tinfoil hats with duct tape hats one of these days.

Re:Greatest Invention Ever

[moorcito]

I'm sure we'll be replacing our tinfoil hats with duct tape hats one of these days.

RTFA, and I think you'll see it should be duct tape tinfoil hats.

Re:Greatest Invention Ever

[BillLeeLee]

I guess we could be more accurate and call it our Duct Tape Aluminum Foil hat. Tin is so...1950s.

I had a foil wallet on /. a year ago

[saskboy]

My old site (scroll to the bottom):
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/woodmtn/insight.html [warning Lycos ads]
Was in my signature nearly a year ago [April 7 2005]
"...a new item the FOIL'ID AGAIN(TM) which is a foil wallet for passports and other RFID infested documents. RFID is cool in food packages, and books, but in ID it's just a bad idea. Someone could pick your pocket without your documents ever leaving your wallet, unless of course you invest in my FOIL'ID AGAIN(TM) product ;-)."

Shoppers Card? Ironic or silly?

[gelfling]

Concerned about privacy issue and the thing you're trying to protect is your VIP Shoppers card? Wow.

Re:Shoppers Card? Ironic or silly?

[bersl2]

Could just as easily be a credit or ATM card. I mean, everybody will want to get in on the act, so why not credit companies and banks?

Which do you value?

[Tony]

Great! So you are willing to expose your financial and personal life to anyone with an RFID reader-- all for a little convenience. Excellent decision, Waldo.

Personally, I predict men will start carrying RFID-blocking satchels with all their gadgets and cards and whatnot inside. "It's European!"

Re:Which do you value?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I'm willing to expose the massive, insured value of my Metro card to anyone about 3 inches away with the proper equipment in exchange for going through the device about 10 seconds quicker.

And, in reality, it doesn't even matter, as the cards keep the value on themselves via smart chips. At worst, someone will erase my card! Oh no!

Re:Which do you value?

[syrinx]

Metro Smartrip cards don't have any personal ID or financial information on them, and nothing else in my wallet has an RFID chip in it. (I'm not the original poster, but I thought the same thing when I read the article [ok, the summary].)

Besides, if someone's waving an RFID reader around my ass, I'd think I'd notice. These things don't have much of a range, you know.

Re:Which do you value?

[TCQuad]

Metro Smartrip cards don't have any personal ID or financial information on them...
and nothing else in my wallet has an RFID chip in it...
These things don't have much of a range...

...yet.

Kind of an important word that was omitted thrice.

Re:Which do you value?

[dnoyeb]

Actually they do. Your RFID is personal info tied to a credit card I assume. Wouldn't want anybody replicating that im sure.

OF course thats why they are encrypted...

Note: you can extend the range on either end.

Re:Which do you value?

[Fishstick]

I think the OP is talking about all the _other_ items you may be carrying in your wallet that have RFID that may expose details about you that you that you might prefer not to share with anyone else.

Personally, this seems kind of silly to me, lining a duct-tape wallet with tinfoil to keep evil WalMart and others from peering under your kimono.

I use a lead-lined fannypack, myself. ;-) Sure, I have to dig out my building pass everytime I go to the bathroom, but isn't my privacy worth a little inconvenience?

Re:Which do you value?

[E8086]

At least for now RFID credit cards and other things that could contain financial information are still optional. My rail pass still relies on the shiney hologram for the fare checkers to see. It has what appears to be a magnetic strip, but I paid cash for it so the only way to trace it back to me would be to check the serial numbers on the bills I used to pay, that is if ticket vending machines and ATMs record the serial numbers on the bills they accept/pay out.
Limited range? Wasn't there are article posted here a couple months ago showing that with enough power the range could be increased from 4" to 70'? All someone whould have to do is rig the transmitter to accept a car battery instead of a AAA or watch battery.

So who's unlazy enough to want to start one of those grass-roots movements to keep bar codes and magnetic strips and let RFID die off? Of course there are some people who stand to gain lots of spare cash by the widespread adoption of RFID, but what's the real benefit for the rest of us? I have nothing against having to physically swipe my credit/bank card through the reader instead of just holding it a few inches away.

Re:Which do you value?

[shawb]

A standard RFID reader can only read from a couple inches... it is possible to make higher powered reader that can read from several yards away. And it is possible to make this reader small and portable.

Re:Which do you value?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Great! So you are willing to expose your financial and personal life to anyone with an RFID reader-- all for a little convenience. Excellent decision, Waldo.

...because we all know that it's impossible for those same people to get your info once you manually take it out of your wallet. Yup -- as long as my wallet is shielded, my card is safe regardless of where it is!

Re:Which do you value?

[GeekyMike]

actually the From the Shadows crew built one for Defcon that could read RFID from something like 30-40 feet (not sure on exact range). If you are interested, check out episode 6 (box 6).

Re:Which do you value?

[macosxaddict]

They could trace the card back to you as follows: assume they have a security camera pointing at you when you buy the card (you had to physically buy it somewhere, since you paid cash). Then all they have to do is match up the serial number of the card with the time and place it was sold, and they can get your face right off the security camera tapes. Once they have your picture, a search of the DMV database would probably suffice to get your name.

Re:Which do you value?

[Skater]

No, Metro's SmarTrip cards are not tied to a credit card - you have to manually "reload" them at a machine, and you may (I'm not sure about this) be able to do it online, but it's not automatic.

So, the most risk you run is losing what's on your card now. And, in fact, I'm not sure the balance info is even stored on the card, since Metro claims they can transfer your balance to a new card if you lose yours (i.e., it must be stored in a server somewhere).

Effective And Practical

[John Hasler]

Line your wallet with adhesive-backed aluminum tape.

Re:Effective And Practical

[Mikkeles]

'Line your wallet with adhesive-backed aluminum tape.'

Available here.

Tinfoil wallet?

[should_be_linear]

Why not simply put my wallet under my hat?

Re:Tinfoil wallet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because a tin foil hat amplifies the signal instead of blocking it. :-)

It would be more effective if you just made a person-sized version of the duct tape wallet and just wore it all day. It would be a bit like moving around in a sleeping bag, but if you went to camp you'll know how to do it.

aluminum

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the aluminum issue has been taken care of, http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/10/183922 4

I hate to lower myself to stereotyping, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Enormous duct-tape wallet? Check.

Tinfoil-level black helicopter paranoia? Check.

Frequent buffet diner card in quick-draw position in wallet? Check.

Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is a tinfoil-hat fatty who thinks the Smoking Man is after him. Imagine Fox Mulder as played by Chris Farley.

Re:I hate to lower myself to stereotyping, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that Chris Farley before or after he died?

Don't expose yourself

[Saint37]

Don't carry anything with RFID tags holding information that you would not want to get out. If there is nothing to worth reading in your wallet the question is moot.

http://www.stockmarketgarden.com/

Re:Don't expose yourself

[MarkGriz]

"Don't expose yourself"

Seeing this is slashdot and all, I'll second that remark

Re:Don't expose yourself

[Kevinv]

This doesn't seem to always be practical. For example I'd like to have an RFID card to open the locks on my door, but I don't want that bleeding out as I walk around. I can't leave the card at home. Credit cards are moving towards embedded RFID too. I guess you could forgo credit cards, but if you don't want to then it would be nice to block the chips.

A wallet like this seems great.

Re:Don't expose yourself

[Saint37]

Your rfid key card is a good idea. And we have seen the stealing key info issue before. Kids with rf recievers were going to shopping malls and intercepting the RF signals from car alarm remote controls. They would then unlock your car when you were not around and steal all your stuff. I guess one solution that would be better is to create two way encryption that expires after each transaction. That way no one can reprocude your signal. So it doesn't matter if they steal it.

http://www.stockmarketgarden.com/

Re:Don't expose yourself

[jZnat]

What the hell does your link have to do with your post? It's obviously not a signature (I have them disabled), and you apparently missed the "my homepage" option in your preferences.

Yeah, anyone really concerned about privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

Likely wouldn't have one of those cards, unless it's already registered under a fake identity and they only ever pay with cash while using it.

Hark

[Jahf]

Hark! It be a dupe!

I wan room service

[tengu1sd]

Raise your hand if you rememeber the fashion accessories from this movie to avoid being tracked by the ID card you were required to have on hand. Of course most people couldn't afford these.

Big brother has been replaced by Big Bubba from Texas

Better solution.

[LWATCDR]

Would be a small compartment lined with conductive film. You could keep the RFID cards you want t shield in that compartment while the selecting which cards to expose like your Smartrip. Frankly I avoid duct tape and tin foil at all times. They cause cancer, let aliens control you mind, and the black helicopters can track duct tape with GPS so I keep far away from that stuff. I am feeling much better now.

Re:Better solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. This is what I was going to suggest. Well, the first sentence anyway.

Re:Better solution.

[LWATCDR]

However duck tape will prevent cow mutilations and will de-harmonize the resonance waves that come from crop circles.

Yes I am kidding... maybe.

No other choice

[fleener]

>Why not just avoid getting the objects if you don't want to use them?

Because within a few years I will have no choice but to use RFID-tagged cards if I want to participate in society in even a remotely normal manner.

Wouldn't...

[OneSmartFellow]

an anti-static bag, like most computer parts are shipped, in work ?

Re:Wouldn't...

[ecryder]

dont think so...lacks the RF "shielding" of the metal.

Re:Wouldn't...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's two types of static bags. One type is coated with a soap-like film which attracts water, which creates a conductive film to disipate static electricity.

The other type has a dark blue appearance, and has microscopic thin layers of metals in parts of the layers. I do not know, but I would think that these metalic layers are too thin to conduct enough of the electromagnetic energy to foil RFID.

Re:Wouldn't...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's conductive, it will interfere with EM.

A more practical approach

[Etyenne]

A more practical approach, if you are only looking at stopping cusual walk-by snooping, would be to carry a conventionnal wallet into a pocket lined with aluminium foil.

Re:A more practical approach

[saskboy]

Just you wait, people will be posting here tomorrow complaining of the nasty foil cuts they got because everyone told them to put foil into their wallets or pockets.

I think it must be some NSA ploy. After all MIT thinks that foil hats help the NSA read brains!

Re:A more practical approach

[WoodieR]

each card has to be individually secured - when you open said wallet, everything is exposed and transmitting ... you must secure and encapsulate each item to protect your privacy .. exposing only the required amount / type of data is the key to successful transactions without excessive abuse - which you know they will

Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[Anonymous Coward]

I just keep all my credit cards and RFID cards in a metal business card holder. I tested it with a RFID reader and it works just fine. Even better is to use a ground wire. At home this is no problem as I was able to make a stretch curly cable connected to the box with the other end connected to a water pipe. Outside I use a small wire running through a hole in my pocket connected to a small length of chain that drags along the ground when I walk. Be sure to make the chain long enough to bridge any insulated flooring that you might have to cross.

I also transfered all my credit cards to plain blank cards by copying the magnetic card stripes on to blanks that I buy through a Panamanian company in bulk. Unfortunately, this has two disadvantages:

1. It's difficult to figure out which card is which.
2. Shop owners are often reluctant to accept my credit card.

Thankfully, for me this is generally never a problem, because I'm almost always stay at home in my home-made Faraday cage, in order to protect myself from the NSA mind control beams.

Re:Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[floodo1]

since i dont have mod points i'll simply laugh

hahahahhahahahhahahha

Re:Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[moonbender]

That's exactly what I do. Well, actually I was using a metal business card holder for a while to hold my cards - driver's license, student id, stuff like that. I don't even have a wallet... It just has the added benefit of stopping RFID tags, and it looks far less geeky. The only problem is that it's at full capacity already, there's positively no room left.

Re:Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[Anonymous Coward]

Tim Rafat, we know it's you.

Re:Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[budgenator]

You don't have to block the NSA mind control rays, just scramble them. For that I've found the standard european 4-1 pattern of chainmaille to be effective; and no that's not me or my site; if it were I'd have to turn in my Paranoid's Anonymous RFID card now wouldn't I?

I am going to start a chainmaille wallet project if only for grins and giggles.

Re:Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[charlesnw]

If your in a Farday cage how are you posting online? Huh? Answer that! Hah!

Re:Use a small metal box for your RFID cards

[Anonymous Coward]

Fiber Optic connection to the net, DUH. ;P

Anti-RFID wallet

[herohog]

Look, it's bad enough that my lizzard skin wallet is worth more than it has EVER contained...

There's one problem...

[AxemRed]

I used to have a work badge that used RFID. When I wanted to get in the doors, I would just turn around and swipe my ass near the scanner instead of taking the card out and swiping it. The card only had a range of a few feet, so I didn't consider it a privacy concern. In fact, I was more than happy to be conveniently broadcasting a radio frequency from my wallet.

Re:There's one problem...

[arose]

The card does not have a defined range, it's the particular reader that has a range of "range of a few feet". At how many feet do you start taking something as a privacy concern anyway?

Who wants a duct tape wallet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially with products like Emvelope.com's available. You just put their insert into your wallet and it blocks the signals when the wallet is closed. It's removable and it doesn't produce goo when it gets hot like duct tape

Hardly effective

[dnoyeb]

Hardly effective. RFID is close range low frequency technology. Its not going to be stopped by some spotty foil wrap thats not even grounded to anything, ROFL...

freezer bag

[willwarner]

It might be faster, easier, less glue-y, and even a trifle less geeky to toss the whole wallet into a foil-lined freezer bag, then fold that up and put it in your pocket. I think Ziploc makes them.

Re:freezer bag

[saskboy]

The bonus of the ziplock bag is that it adds water protection. The downside is that it adds water protection, which means you'll sweat a lot if you wear it next to your leg, or chest in any kind of money belt. But this is Slashdot - sweat away!

why no hat instructions?

[edmicman]

Where are the instructions to make the accompanying tin-foil hat?

Re:why no hat instructions?

[0xC2]

Here you go...

http://www.stopabductions.com/

Try another RMS

[poeidon1]

Or you try what RMS did at UNO, wear a full foil to avoid RFID tracking

What Would MacGyver Do?

[Anonymous Coward]

A foil gum wrapper opens up to the size of a credit card. I placed a wrapper in the card pocket of my wallet to keep my Amex Blue's RFID from being read. Unfortunately it blocks the rest of the cards in my wallet, and I have to remove my ID to get RFID door/building access. I'll take security over convenience on this one.

Re:What Would MacGyver Do?

[Bob569856]

Hmm, What type of gum wrappers were you using? I have a rather large pack of Wrigley's Winterfresh on my desk. It took 3 pieces to completely cover my ID card. After tapping the wrappers around my id card, I went and swiped my card. It beeped and I was allowed access. I was hoping this easy mod would work. I am tired of the security guy asking me out when I am late for work. I will have to stick to me previous plan of waiting until someone walks through the door and piggy-back after them.


Results of my informal testing (I am the only person at work today and really bored)

1.] Gum wrapper taped around ID Card - Did not work
2.] Anti-Static Bag from CDW - Did not work
3.] Altoid Box - Worked very well. The exact sixe of my ID card and other RFID cards.

Does it come with a hat too? :)

[pete.com]

I could use a new one.

Excellent

[Red Flayer]

You may be interested in funding my next startup.

We're marketing a line of trend-conscious tinfoil hats with interior pockets for all your RFID-taged personal items. So far, we've come up with a few prototypes for different markets:

(1) Baseball cap: The Toyota "Psyon" (get it?) of TFHs -- stylish and cost-conscious. We expect this to be our biggest seller, since the male 15-24 demographic is most likely to be aware of the dangers apparent with RFID; they are also most likely to perpetuate a trend involving tinfoil hats. Also, lower price-point than other models.
(2) Fedora: Stylish and useful, the luxury minivan of TFHs. For those in either law enforcement or organized crime who have their own reasons for hiding their activity.

(3) Sombrero: The SUV of TFHs. Spacious pockets and high-powered shielding; will even protect neckwear from overhead surveillance. Mexican illegals may find this one both culturally acceptable and useful to avoid INS. Plus, the plan is that it'll catch on in major cities, as our marketing team has identified a potential demand for the "Urban Tin-foil Sombrero".

(4) Yarmulka: This product is designed for a niche market. While pocketroom and coverage is minimal, the market is obligated to wear one. Why not ours, eh? Also, may find a second market amongst people who desire a disguised TFH -- easily hidden under a old-fashioned (traditional, or non-tinfoil hat).

Please contact me at your earliest convenience to discuss this amazing business opportunity. With a modest initial investment, you can be a partner in utilizing the output of soon-to-be-acquired tin mines in order to maximize the earnings potential of these synergistic products.

Serious need here

[AK__64]

I think this is a legitamate question that needs to be addressed by wallet manufacturers. There are uses for RFID that need to be shielded until I say that I want them scanned. I don't think a duct tape wallet is a long-term solution, so Slashdotters, get busy... Also, would it be possible for my card, whatever it may be, to be scanned twice at the same moment? What if I took an RFID scanner and lurked around a stationary scanner, would it be possible for me to pick up people's RFID info?

Re:Serious need here

[amcdiarmid]

Actually, How about a wallet with ONE (or two) RFID resistant pockets. Then you can have a leather wallet that functions normally, allowing you to use your metro smart pass, and RFID security for the 1-2 cards you don't want transmitting.

Re:Serious need here

[John Hasler]

> Also, would it be possible for my card, whatever it may be, to be
> scanned twice at the same moment?

Of course. It would even be possible to build a "passive" scanner that does not transmit any rf to excite the chip but instead waits for another scanner to do so. This would avoid detection by monitors designed to detect "unauthorized" scanners.

> What if I took an RFID scanner and lurked around a stationary
> scanner, would it be possible for me to pick up people's RFID
> info?

If you used a normal active scanner you would not need to lurk around stationary scanners.

Abandoning research?

[itomato]

After so many years of research in the field of tin foil hats, why are they going for duct tape?

Where's the leather?

Where's the Velostat TM?

Re:Abandoning research?

[0xC2]

Yes these wallet guys are rank amateurs. The alien abduction crowd is light-years ahead on this.

Scotch Black Cloth Tape, part number 330BLK-NA is prefered to duct tape.

Made from recycled tinfoil hats

[j-turkey]

I've finally found a use for all those worn-out tinfoil hats!

Now I just need to figure out how to mod the process to protect against pickpockets and muggers?

Better solution

[brunes69]

If there are a small number of "must carry" items that you are forced to have, then wouldn't a far better solution be to only wrap *those* items in foil, or put them in the only foil line dpocket? Then all your other "smart cards" would keep working.

After all, how often do you pull out your drivers license anyway? Maybe once every two months? Even less? Who cares if it is wrapped in foil?

Re:Better solution

[Red Flayer]

Well, I don't want ANY information to be accessible to those who I do not authorize to give the information to. Whether it's a smart Metrocard, or Gascard, or whatever it is... when I'm not using it for it's intended purpose, it should not be readable at all.

As to how often I pull out my DL -- quite a bit, when I was younger and went out to the bars often. Young smokers may even pull it out daily.

I think it would be much easier, and cheaper, to have banket security in this case -- i.e., you need positive approval from me before reading any of my data.

Re:Better solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey some of us look like we're 12 and have to pull our ID out everytime we'd like to enjoy and adult beverage.

Re:Better solution

[John Hasler]

> I think it would be much easier, and cheaper, to have banket
> security in this case -- i.e., you need positive approval from
> me before reading any of my data.

Or be in line behind you when you are buying cigarettes.

Re:Better solution

[Red Flayer]

Good point. Not sure how to fix that problem, but at least I'd know that I was exposing my information.

One possibility -- though it would never be implemented:

Personal IDs are in an RFID-proof case (credit-card sized). Special hardware needed to unlock the case, which then reads the tag within an RFID-proof box. Exterior display show the necessary information, authorizes the transaction, or whatever. The RFID tag is never 'visible' to outside readers, the black box does its job. Still has security problems (black box hackability, for one), accpetance problems (it's very visible, most people are fine with RFID as long as it doesn't intrude on their activities), cost, other problems (durability of case, for one).

Re:Better solution

[TheGavster]

So, we mate the RFID-proof box containing the card to the RFID-proof box containing the reader, and perform the operation. How is this any different from inserting the magnetic edge of the card, or the smart card copper connection into the card reader?

Re:Better solution

[Red Flayer]

It's very similar -- the difference being that your RFID-enabled card is never exposed to outside readers, just like credit cards currently. There's always the human factor, but this minimizes that as well. All the precious, (supposedly) necessary info is there, but without physical insertion, no one can retrieve any of the data (excepting database hacks, etc).

Also, if the smart card requires a copper connection, is it really RFID -- does the connection just supply power for the broadcast? And if so, is the broadcast interceptable?

That's what it's about to me -- minimizing the chance that my data could be misappropriated or misused, which means removing the human factor. If it were up to me, the concept of broadcast in personal IDs would never be implemented.

If that means sticking to current technologies, I'm OK with that.

Re:Better solution

[brunes69]

Whether it's a smart Metrocard, or Gascard, or whatever it is... when I'm not using it for it's intended purpose, it should not be readable at all.

I think it would be much easier, and cheaper, to have banket security in this case -- i.e., you need positive approval from me before reading any of my data.

Cheaper maybe, but not easier or faster. The whole freaking point of having a smartpass or metrocard is so that you don't have to take it out of your wallet, you just wave your wallet in front of the reader, which makes everything go faster for you and also the people behind you. If I had to take my RFID access card out of my wallet every time I had to get and out in the door at work I think I'd find a new job.

If you have to take it out to use it you might as well just use a magnetic stripe. Been there, done that. I don't like waiting in line behind joe sixpack while he fumbles around in his wallet trying to yank out his card, then can't even figure out which way to swipe the damn thing. Neither does anyone else.

Re:Better solution

[maxpublic]

I don't like waiting in line behind joe sixpack while he fumbles around in his wallet trying to yank out his card, then can't even figure out which way to swipe the damn thing. Neither does anyone else.

Fortunately we live in a society which has no legal guarantee of personal convenience, so if Joe Sixpack wants to do that your only choice is to suck it up and deal with it.

Hell, I hate waiting in line at the store because some fuckwit has to run his bank card to buy groceries since he's too fucking lazy to hit the ATM and get some actual cash out, but that's his choice whether I like it or not. And so long as *I* have to suck it up, sit tight, and be polite, so do you.

Max

Re:Better solution

[brunes69]

Hell, I hate waiting in line at the store because some fuckwit has to run his bank card to buy groceries since he's too fucking lazy to hit the ATM and get some actual cash out, but that's his choice whether I like it or not. And so long as *I* have to suck it up, sit tight, and be polite, so do you.

You should go to a different grocery store then, one that has a decent debit machine setup. In a store with a network-connected debit machine (like most Wal-marts for example, but they are not alone), using debit is *much faster* than cash. I can swipe my card and type my pin and be on my way much faster than lil-miss-minimum-wage can count out my 14.26 in change.

German?

[Anonymous Coward]

Being German myself, I'm not surprised that the obviously slightly paranoid person submitting this seems to be German (or did he/she just take a German username?). I'm not surprised because if you go to a German forum and there is anything about RFID, people go into a panic mode I have never seen before. People actuall WRITE STORIES on the forums, about a future with RFID's where everything goes wrong and nobody is free anymore. Then everyone else applauds. Here on slashdot, most people (like me) just seem to think that it's not a big deal. Could it be a regional paranoia spreading into the internet?

Re:German?

[Zey]

Could it be a regional paranoia spreading into the internet?

Could it be that there are people still living there who experienced a time when "everything went wrong and nobody was free anymore"?

You're German and you've forgotten fascism already? Sheesh!

Re:German?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're German and you've forgotten fascism already?

So you were there 60 years ago?
And you were old enough to realize what was happening?

Wow!

I'm from Germany and although I had about four years of history in school dealing exclusively with Germany 1918-1945, I don't dare to pretend to know what it was like to live in that time.

Re:German?

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't need to know how it was to live in that time,

you just need to know how it was to die in that time.

Many people died for no reason other than the government wanted them to.

That itself is reason to question the government, especially when tracking systems were used for this exact purpose.

If an entity (person, nation) did something bad once, then if left to its own devices, it will do the same bad thing again.

So, assume the government will misuse any tracking system you let it have, because in the past it did, so it's reasonable to assume it will try to do the same thing in the future.

Re:German?

[pimpimpim]

Well, here's your answer: just scroll down a bit!

Re:German?

[rynthetyn]

If everybody in Germany is paranoid about RFID, then why the heck is it being used in all of the World Cup tickets? Not only did I have to sign my life away to even apply for tickets, I then will be walking all around Germany carrying tickets that have my name, passport number, and address stored in the tag.

Anti-static bag

[Anonymous Coward]

An anti-static bag - the type used to store electronic components - would make a good RFID shield and no duct tape required. The weak conductivity of the bags attenuate RF considerably and in practice you'll fold the bag up a few times, making it even better.

British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[UpnAtom]

Not only will the ID bill compulsorily number every British citizen thereby creating by far the most intrusive Stasi database ever but they will also contain RFID chips.

Most people don't know how scary Britain has become in the last 12 months. In addition to their other Nazi laws, only yesterday it was leaked that Blair is going to tap MPs phones.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[makomk]

Technically, he's only making it legal to tap MP's phones, though once that's done it's probably inevitable that it will happen. It's probably also inevitable that this will be abused for political purposes sooner or later...

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a grip. There are some scary suggestions being made but it's unlikely it'll all make it into law. And no-one said Blair was going to wiretap MPs; just that MPs are no longer exempt from being tapped bringing them in line with the rest of the population.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[UpnAtom]

Read some of the links, wake up and smell the Zyklon B.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Whereas in the US we've had social security numbers forever and our Passports come with RFID chips.

Big fucking deal.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[UpnAtom]

Your passports have only recently come with RFID chips.

And bombs targetted at specific RFIDs should be picked up by airport security.

But you aren't likely to carry your passport around with you at all times.

You also have a constitution. We only have a Human Rights Act that the Government has already threatened to revoke.

You still haven't read the link. Your Government isn't proposing creating a Surveillance State. Ours is.

Do some research, I doubt I'll bother replying otherwise.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[Great Beyond]

You also have a constitution. For what it's worth. But it hasnt slowed down Emperor Bush the 2nd any. . . . .

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[UpnAtom]

I sympathise. It's hard to imagine a man who wanted to bomb a news broadcaster is still the most powerful man in the world. At least you know you're getting rid of him in 3 years.

He is also undergoing all kinds of investigation which our PM doesn't - remember Blair has been caught lying over the invasion and nobody has yet been able to hold him to account.

You can also point to that line which was crossed eg with the NSA surveillance.

That kind of stuff goes on unchecked in the UK.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[Anonymous Coward]

You do some research. The UK has a constitution. Time and time again idiots come onto this board saying "The UK has NO constitution" and then capping it off with some snide comment like "Do some research". Shall I say it again? The UK has a constitution. No, not a written constitution, but a constitution nevertheless. Your other statements are unlikely to be correct given the severe inaccuracy of this one. Come back when you've done some research.

Re:British ID cards will contain RFID chips

[Anonymous Coward]

We can see why you post anonymously.

the lazy

[calyptos]

People, like me, are lazy. I don't want to have to take my RFID card out of my wallet to scan at the front door of the office building to get in. I also don't want to take it out again for the security at the front desk. I also do not want to take it out for the elevator to get to my office's floor. I also do not want to take it out a 4th time to get into the office.

Having RFID pass through your wallet makes things a lot quicker (at least for me). Nothing sensitive is stored on the RFID card, and if someone did manage to steal the contents, they wouldn't know what it goes to. Its like dropping my house key on the street when i'm 20 miles from home. No need to rekey the house, they dont know where I live.

Re:the lazy

[Buradorii]

Er, how about just keeping your card out of the wallet until you get in the office?

And people's points are that while right now there might not be identifying info on the one or two cards in your wallet, that will very likely not be the case a few years from now.

Re:the lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true that nothing sensitive is on the card ... except ... the card has a unique ID. With a second or two's worth of data mining, if someone knows who the unique ID was most likely given to, then a great deal of interesting information can be put together about the holder of the card.

Re:the lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Its like dropping my house key on the street when i'm 20 miles from home. No need to rekey the house, they dont know where I live.

Unless, of course, that your personal identification, like your address, is "dropped" right next to your house key. Since both your ID card and "house key" card and any other data in your pocket can be "dropped" by RFID snooping at the same time, I'd say it'd be a good idea to rekey your house.

That is, if you knew you had dropped your keys and other RFID things in the first place. Maybe that bowtie really was a camera!

Re:the lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

There's too much time between each step. The mantraps, sure thats only a few moments. Then to the desk, perhaps... But then the walk to the elevator, then up all those floors and down the hall? It is much easier just to press your wallet to the reader.

Re:the lazy

[PopGoesTommy]

Credit cards will soon be using RFID, and I'm not sure if you've ever taken a look at a credit card number, but they aren't completely random. You can easily find out what bank is used, and what region it's in. If using the number for purchases isn't enough, more information could be obtained from the bank using social engineering techniques. I already made my aluminum foil and duct tape wallet, and I'm looking forward to testing it tomorrow.

Tinfoil Clothing

[MattyDK23]

I take my wallet out of my back pocket and wave it in front of the sensor at my work door a half-dozen times a day. The card is deep in my wallet somewhere, between a bunch of old bus passes and business cards. I don't want to have to find it every time I step out.

Tinfoil-lined pockets, on the other hand...or 100% tinfoil jeans...now that'd be awesome.

Do it like me to protect you from RFID ..

[RedLaggedTeut]

I wear my wallet under my tinfoil hat.

Little known phacts: In 1974, the Agency issued tinfoil hats to all its field agents

On a related note ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does somebody know where we can buy a cheap RFID reader ?

Muji are years ahead

[StressedEd]

If you want one "off the shelf", look no further than Muji who sell aluminium card cases. These quite nicely contain your credit cards, bank cards and cash and are RFID stoppers. Of course this can be a bad thing since it means I have to always take my Oyster card out to use it.

If you use USD then you may find the bills too long and thin to conveniently fold to use the card case as a wallet, but it works well for GBP, EURO & NZD.

(Caveat, I don't use it for it's RFID stopping abilities but for its abject refusal to stretch when it needs clearing out, preventing wallet bulge!).

Re:Muji are years ahead

[KerberosKing]

For we that pay with US Dollars rather than Sterling, you can get the same thing from MUJI in the US at MoMAstore.

Get the Metrosexual alternative:

[Anonymous Coward]

Get yourself a stylish metal cigarette case and put all of your IDs and money in there. I looks much cooler than your duct tape alternatives.

Shoppers card + anonymity is doable.

[amcdiarmid]

Not every signs up for a shoppers card with their real identity:

Come on, be a hacker...

Your ID:

My Name
123 Know way
Anonymous, PA 15213
555 555 1212

They may know that I shop somewhere, and what I buy - but not who I really am (unless I pay by CC)

I'd give you my $.02, but then you'd have my fingerprints

What do you get if you combine...

[corvenus]

What do you get if you combine the words "Duct" and "Tape"? Dupe!

RFID + Biometrics?

[Millenniumman]

Wouldn't it be possible to necessitate a finger scan before an RFID reader accessed important data from your card? So, unless it's just a metro card or something, you would have to scan your fingerprint before using it. You still wouldn't have to take your card out. And the cutting off fingers problem is nonexistent because it would be much easier to just steal a card.

Oh sure that's true..

[gelfling]

It just struck me as funny that then you would work hard to protect FAKE information.

Or, easier yet..

[technos]

Just get a trifold wallet. Put a piece of folded aluminum foil the size of a standard payroll check in with your cash.

Wallet closed, RFID defeated.

Need to RFID your way through a turnstile or into work? Open the wallet.

Need to RFID your way through a lot of doors? Fold the wallet into an S shape with the pocket holding the RFID card out, and stick it back into your pants. The RFID cards in the center pockets and other side will still be wrapped in foil, and unreadable.

Comes in handy with RFID Zapper

[Anonymous Coward]

This might also come in handy when you want to use the RFID Zapper.

From the article:
What is the RFID-Zapper?
The RFID-Zapper is a gadget to deactivate (i.e. destroy) passive RFID-Tags permanently.

No Coin Pocket Description

[Anonymous Coward]

Some ideas I've embeded in mine are coin pockets within the large bill pocket ...

A wallet without a coin pocket is pretty useless in europe. I currently have 22 coins in my wallet. I hate when the change makes noises in my pocket, so I prefer to put it in my wallet. European bills start at 5 Euros (approx. 6 US$), so there are a lot of things to buy that demand coins.

A more practical approach: Normal Wallet and Foil

[twitter]

A more practical approach, if you are only looking at stopping cusual walk-by snooping, would be to carry a conventionnal wallet into a pocket lined with aluminium foil.

Why not just line a nice wallet with foil? The quick and dirty way is to put a large piece of foil in the billfold section. If you want to get fancy, unstitch the liner and shove the foil between the leather and the liner, then stitch it back. This might take a little longer than making a wallet from duct tape, but it will look much nicer and much less kooky.

It's going to be worth my effort to take my pass card out of my wallet if the door opener at work can also read my credit cards. The people at work use M$ for all sorts of stuff, so I imagine it's easy to own the card reader.

And

[Anonymous Coward]

Tact... something Slashdot seems to lack. There must be some sort of yin/yang sort of thing going on.

Security industry.

[InnereNacht]

I work for a small security outfit and we put in access control systems with RFID tag badges, fobs, etc. The chances of someone carrying around a reader and the equipment needed to decode whatever cards they find is pretty minimal, and with the minimal read range of the ID tags you need to have a pretty serious setup to get a valid read. Even the standard size proximity card reader can only read at a range of about 2-4" max. HID makes a reader called the Pro Prox that is about 15" x 15" and has a read range of around a foot. I wouldn't worry so much. Nobody is going to be snagging your credit card numbers from space. If you see someone walking around with a backpack and a car battery tied to his leg and your hair stands on end when you get within a couple feet, then maybe be concerned. These readers really aren't what people make them out to be. Hell, most of the smaller RFID devices require contact with the reader to work.

Re:Security industry.

[nuigi]

The problem is long term though. Yes, our privacy risk isn't terribly bad today, but technology advances very quickly, as we all know. Even if we had benevolent government[s], I don't want to literally be tracked. If we don't fight for privacy now, it will be gone in the future.

Re:Security industry.

[InnereNacht]

Then don't plan on working for any large companies, even this day and age. Most companies run reports to find out what employees are where in their facility judging by what card readers they've accessed recently. Haven't read out with your card? Then you're either still in that area, or you walked out the door behind someone who did. On-Site reports are pretty common for us.

I'm not saying we should ignore it and hope it goes away, by all means. I'm all for privacy myself (And I install high end CCTV equipment for a living), but we're a long ways off from being able to track any RFID tags from a large distance.

If you have a proximity card or key fob from an x-employer you may want to take a look at it sometime, take it apart. If its a white card, put it up to the light. Its essentially just a coil of wires with a small chip containing a small string of digits. A site code and a card number. It can't contain any personal information because its a dumb device. They're programmed from the factory and shipped out. They contain NO information about you or anyone else, just a disclaimer.

Now an RFID tag on a credit card or somesuch would definately have the card string, etc. But the tag thats in there would be even smaller than one in a proximity access card. It would require physical contact with the reading device to get a read. And if you have any other RFID devices in your wallet/pocket/lunchbox? You'll never get a clear read.

Re:Security industry.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about a purse?

Lets get technical

[SmallFurryCreature]

So stop all discussion about the bloody stupid political implications or rants about fashion or the use of foil hats.

What does it actually take to stop RFID from reading a card. What materials, what thickness, goes it need to enclose completly or not.

Is there a way to generate interference so I could have a constant empty field around my wallet? A card that constantly broadcasts fake info?

Would such a thing be legal? Is the spectrum this works in free?

Oh okay, why should you want to? BECAUSE!

Been There Done That

[stuffduff]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=98942&threshol d=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=8440300

ID Number != Personal Info

[AeroIllini]

I'm not sure I understand what all the paranoia about RFID identification cards is all about. Honestly, are we getting up in arms because our security through obscurity is no longer obscure?

RFID only contains a number, like a barcode. Anyone stealing that number would have to have access to the database that links those numbers to an identity in order to obtain that information, which of course, needs to be secured. But I'm already linked to databases of information through numbers.

All that information is already out there, in many databases, linked to numbers that are ridiculously easy to obtain. This is no different; it's just another medium.

So, would someone please explain to me (I'm not being sarcastic here; I'm really curious) why obtaining this number through RFID means is any different than rifling through people's trash or sniffing wireless packets? My name, address, phone number, drivers license number, social security number, credit card numbers, bank account numbers, etc. are all numbers that link me to an "identity." I don't understand how adding a couple more numbers to the mix will make things so much worse.

"People could steal your identity by simply walking past you on the street!", the Slashdotters claim. Yeah, they could pick your pocket, too, and get all your credit cards, your driver's license, and a picture of your mother. What's the difference?

These numbers cannot be hidden. They are everywhere, if you know where to look. I think the idea of RFID being bad comes from the fact that it shatters our illusion that security through obscurity works. It simply exposes the flaws already inherent in the system.

If I am missing something here, please let me know. I want to know if all this is "new tech is teh bad" paranoia, or genuine concern.

Re:ID Number != Personal Info

[Havenwar]

well, what makes me concerned is for instance the ideas that credit cards is slipping over into RFID, hence cloning of RFID would become a danger. Sure people can pickmy pocket... hence why I take every precationpossible to make this more difficult. Just as I willtake every precaution to make stealingmy RFID info more difficult, even if odds are it wont happen.

I mean.. do you wear a seatbelt? use a virus scanner? use a helmet on a motor bike?

Precautionary safety is not the same as useless safety. It is up to each individual to decide if the info broadvasted by his or her RFID tag isimportant enough to them to protect, but I say it is quickly getting there.

So i dont know who you are, since I only have your id number from the scan. doesnt matter, you walked in range ofmy scanner, I know what you look like. If you look a bit like me I can follow you towork and access the building using your RFID codes. In the future I migth be able to travelon your passport, buys tuff on your credit card, and uselocal transportation on your account. Just because you passed my scanner one day without having a shielded wallet.

now.. how about that seat belt?

Re:ID Number != Personal Info

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, they could pick your pocket, too, and get all your credit cards, your driver's license, and a picture of your mother. What's the difference?

After having my pocket picked, the next time I try to use my wallet I know it has been stolen and, hopefully, can take measures to deal with that thieft of personal information.

After having my pocket sniffed, the only way to know it has happened is when it's too late to do anything about it. That is, after the thief has used it to take something else, not the next time I try to use it myself.

I predict

[dheltzel]

. . . that a commercial RFID shielded wallet will make an appearance on Thinkgeek shortly.

Not Better

[Anonymous Coward]

Having a tin foil layer in a wallet will impact even those cards outside it. The reflection of the active RF signals bouncing off the foil can cause enough self interference to render it unusable.

I found this out while carrying a piece of sheet metal that required both hands. I draped my RFID badge over the front so I could get in the door at work. It would not open the door in normal proximity to the card reader.

Don't be dense

[CalCudahy]

There are uses for RFID that need to be shielded until I say that I want them scanned

What exactly are those uses that can only use RFID? If you don't want it read remotely, don't put it on RFID. Just put the info on a mag stripe. Different tools have different benefits and drawbacks. There are alternatives.

Re:Don't be dense

[AK__64]

Tell that to Wal-Mart... Or the US Gov't. RFID is coming, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it...

OMFG!

[Anonymous Coward]

Patent!

Just use a FilmShield...

[gubbas]

Not to play into this insane RFID paranoia any more than need be, but you can use a FilmShield to do the trick. They are lead lined and drive the airport scanners nuts... http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops- 1_photo_8714448_2/103-6943533-4911007?search-alias =photo&keywords=film%20shield/

Marketing opportunity

[davidwr]

This sounds like a great marketing opportunity:
RFID-proof clothes, wallets, and purses, and passport holders.

If it's possible, have an RFID wallet with an RFID-shielded see-through panel for the driver's license. Ditto for passport so the 1st page can be seen w/o compromising the shield.

Oh and of course an RFID-proof baseball cap to replace the tinfoil-hats we are all wearing.

Tinfoil hat!

[mpfife]

Yes! Now a tinfoil hat for my id cards too. Time to stick it to the alien-man too!

There's also risk during the use of the card

[Anonymous Coward]

When the card is being used the signal can detected at a reasonable distance.

Re:There's also risk during the use of the card

[herohog]

"How did you know we were lost?" "The packages told us." (all your base belong to us!)

It's a tin foil hat ...

[Squeamish Ossifrage]

... for your butt. What's not to love?

Re:A more practical approach: Normal Wallet and Fo

[InnereNacht]

The card read goes to a physical security panel, not to a PC. The users transaction info is sent to the PC from the panel. It consists of the door's ID#, the card number, and the time the transaction took place (in general). Theres tons of different kinds of card formats (Weigand, etc) and not all card readers can extrapolate the information correctly. So don't worry about your credit card RFID tag being read by the access control system.

Non metal faraday cage?

[jasonditz]

I'm not sure how a metal detector would react to this, but what if instead of aluminum foil I used something like Velostat to line a wallet like this?

Duct-tape wallet

[jc42]

Here ya are.

This has been around for a while. They have a number of other nice things you can make from duct tape.

Also, check out the duct-tape bandaid.

Everyone on /. should know about these things.

Re:Duct-tape wallet

[ottothecow]

The wallet guide omits the crucial step of making the inner portion of the wallet cut slightly angled ( like this: /--\ ) so that it holds the proper shape when fully loaded. Additionally, this means that wallet will "pop" slightly open when you open it for ease of adding and removing its contents.

Also, commercially produced inserts can be integrated into the wallet for excellent multiple card/picture storage and acetate can be combined with ducttape to create a clear pocket.

Re:Duct-tape wallet

[jc42]

Yeah, and there are a few other places making duct-tape stuff, such as ducttapefashion.com, though they're not taking orders now due to the "onslaught" of Christmas orders. The best thing to do is just to google for "duct-tape" plus whatever you want. Matching for "duct-tape wallet" gets several sources. I like the duct-tape belts; I may have to order one.

Still, it's fun to find instructions on a site that belongs to the manufacturer. It's obvious that they're having a bit of fun with it.

I love duct tape wallets

[GeekyMike]

my wife bought a duct tape wallet made by Ducti it doesnt ooze adhesive or glue anything together and has survived two trips through the washer and dryer. I think if I could find the same type tape Ducti uses. I would definately make one of these. I may do it even if I can't. After all, why should my head be the only one with tinfoil Mister Lincoln and General Washington deserve the same headware.

Re:A more practical approach: Normal Wallet and Fo

[Anonymous Coward]

The people at work use M$ for all sorts of stuff

Um, what?

I like RFID

[Mugros]

A long time ago i worked at a company where you checked in and out with a card. You could hold the whole wallet against the scanner and it read your ID.

Probably wont work

[Anonymous Coward]

Foil, no matter how thin, will block r.f. Thickness is not
an issue. What is an issue is the seams. A seam must make
metal to metal contact or it will create an excellent
"slot antenna." Using aluminized duct tape has the
problem that each wrap is insulate from other wraps. There
may be DC current continuity depending how the tape is
folded, but also lots of "slot antennas."

I recall in the 1950's as a radio ham facing the problem of
television interference, and we'd try to shield the TV as
well as the receiver using kitchen foil and tape. None of
these ideas worked because of the "slot antenna" effect.

Radio transmitter manufacturers finally came out with r.f. tight
boxes (the wires in and out were filtered). These boxes made of
perforated and/or solid metal, and where the lids were had
finger contact strips. They were delicate and a pain to open
up, but they worked.

A simpler way to do this whole thing would be to use a regular
wallet and simply wrap your cards with aluminum kitchen foil.
You can use tape to reinforce it, but the metal foil must contact
each other 100% all around. With the right folds, a little flap
here and there it may work until it cracks. But its low tech.
For high tech, perhaps a wallet constructed of a fabric that is
electrically conductive, or at least an insert for a regular
wallet. Also, metal pill boxes may work.

RG

Matching Helment

[Deitiker]

Does it come with a matching foil-hat?

Debunked Foil Hats...?

[eonlabs]

Didn't we already have an article debunking the effectiveness of aluminum foil against RF. It even went to say that it would amplify certain signals.
Sorry, but I doubt the validity of at least one of those articles based on the fact they contradict.

For better movie protection...

[Twisted64]

I recommend the wet towel technique as demonstrated in this movie.

Poof! He's gone.

[Fantastic Lad]

I'm not sure I understand what all the paranoia about RFID identification cards is all about. Honestly, are we getting up in arms because our security through obscurity is no longer obscure?

Getting my pocket picked electronically doesn't seem like a particularly good thing to me. --But that's not what really bothers me. I suspect that whatever system the banks end up endorsing will see to it that this kind of theft is very hard to perpetrate, if they even endorse the system at all.

However. . .

The fact that an RFID signal can be tracked from orbit concerns me somewhat.

That is. . , you need to be within a meter or two for a reading unit to charge the RFID chip in your wallet, (or your belt-buckle, or the seam of your jeans, the handle of your razor blade, or whatever), but once the chip is charged, its broadcast goes out into infinity. There are indeed sensors powerful enough to track you wherever you go. This system allows for the ultimate in actualized state paranoia, where it is that much easier for everybody to be monitored.

Linked with the various other systems and data bases, it should be reasonably possible to keep tabs on everybody at all times. Should this bother you? That's up to you.

For my part, I know damned well it bothers me, because I think government should go hang itself, and I say so loudly and often. People like me tend to be among the first rounds of vanishings as fascism settles in.

-FL

Aluminum/Foil Tape instead

[evildeathpenguins]

Just use aluminum tape instead, the stuff that really seals furnace ductwork. GO ahead and mod me down I don't have good karma anyway

Won't work.

[Thomas Shaddack]

You have to use steel or iron or anything ferromagnetic. The tags that are coupled via a coil use magnetic field, and the card-reader pair is effectively an air-core transformer. Foil will shield the electric field, but the magnetic field that does the coupling stays largely unattenuated. If you can afford it, use permalloy (mu-metal) foil, if you're on a budget use a piece of a tin can sheet.

rfid wallets improved

[WeaverBen]

A friend of mine, Shane Rexford (rexfords@thomas.edu) is making mylar-foil envelopes to put in wallets and to hold passports. And he was doing it before this. If you're interested, email him.