It's been a long time since I read the Challenger report, but I suspect you're right about the evidence part. Damning thing is, they were right anyway.
I've not had time to do more than skim CAIB. I see that I'll have to make some. What you say about the engineers does sound like the current NASA - more concerned about their careers than, well, their jobs. Sigh.
I see your point. Seperation would be difficult in this design.
I definitely agree about the clean sheet! The shuttle is a kludge.
It'd probably be easier if we designed two reusables; a crew carrier and a cargo carrier. We could design them on similar airframes to save money, and both would be more capable than the integrated design.
For missions where they need to be together in orbit, well, we developed rendezvous techniques a long time ago...
Personally I think it makes sense to have seperate vehicles from both a monetary and safety standpoint. The reusable cargo vehicles would mainly be used for orbital labs, retrieval of craft, etc; just plain ol' satellite launching we should leave to throwaway boosters.
A good analog would be ground/water transportation; with very few exceptions, we don't design vehicles/ships to both carry massive amounts of cargo and massive amounts of people.
The possible significance of this was not lost on Cain: during the launch a piece of solid foam had broken off from the shuttle's external fuel tank, and at high speed had smashed into the left wing; after minimal consideration the shuttle program managers (who stood above Mission Control in the NASA hierarchy) had dismissed the incident as essentially unthreatening. Like almost everyone else at NASA, Cain had taken the managers at their word--and he still did.
Do you have a source for this? I've heard differently.
Insofar as Challenger is concerned, it's very well documented that managers at Morton-Thiokol and NASA squelched concerns about the O-rings on the SRBs.
I find it unlikely that those engineers whose concern it was to keep track of such things didn't make their case to their supervisors about the foam impact. I've heard that they did, but can't find the source right now, so I'd like to see where you heard that they didn't.
Actually in both accidents the crew cabin remained intact; I suspect little additional engineering would be required to ensure that, especially considering the stresses that the Columbia's crew cabin must have undergone during orbiter breakup. Protecting the crew from the g-forces involved would be damned difficult.
I do agree with the rest of what you said. I also think it's a solvable problem; perhaps for some future design. Not an easy problem, tho, by any means. Perhaps some of the new composites might help mitigate the mass factor.
I experienced the same thing, mostly, I think, because I could finally *visualize* what was going on during the footage I've seen.
That said, I'd say it seems pretty likely that at least some of the crew were alive (possibly even conscious, depending on the g-forces in the crew cabin) up to the moment the cabin itself disintegrated.
*shudder*
In any case, I don't think there's any doubt that they knew what was happening to them...
Google may have blocked the SCO site, but www.caldera.com now comes up as the first hit, hee hee hee:)
SCO | SCO Grows Your Business Click Here For More Information About SCOsource, SCO has recently issued two letters intended to protect its intellectual property.... www.caldera.com/ - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
Yeah, the Hairy Butt Crack side of legal, as in Bend Over so we can shove our enormous Litigation Dick a little bit deeper *puudumph* a little bit deeper *puuuudummmph*...
Actually the error rates in weather models are pretty high yet. Climate models are getting much better, but forward prediction with them is also very error prone.
No confusion, just late and the finger-brain interface was fuzzy:)
The study of avalanche flow falls within a field known as Geophysical Fluid Dynamics. Yes, there are a lot of similarities; what you're describing is known as a "power snow" avalanche; "dense snow" avalanches are considerably more complicated.
This is an interesting experiment and all, but it resembles a real avalanche about as much as computer climate models resemble real weather.
A actual avalanche is orders of magnitude more complicated. It'd probably be easier, and much more informative, to simulate it on a computer, actually.
It does make for some good eye candy, tho, and I'd bet it was a whole lot of fun. As a serious scientific tool, it's probably not very effective in this day and age, given the better tools out there.
As a teaching tool, however, it has astounding potential, especially in primary education.
Just as an aside, I've witnessed a few large avalanches. I was fascinated (and horrified) at the time; the fascination came from observing the complex flows introduced by various things such as the underlying terrain, trees, assorted rocks, etc. I remember thinking the last time that it was a good demonstration of fluid flow dynamics. The horror came from watching several skiers get caught up in the snow flow. They survived, thank Guh.
b.) Relevant portion? I don't recall having seen anything like that...and I'd be surprised that more companies aren't suing because of it. I'm curious about that.
WRT to radio ad: Legally, I can see your point. From a common sense standpoint, it's nonsense and absurd. But then so many things are in our great country nowadays....I can just see a 17 year old software dev being mistaken for The Great Microsoft. Uh, yeah. Stupider^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H sillier things have happened. Like he'd be advertising on national/international radio, anyway. Or anything but local.
I'm starting to think that Microsoft may have the same lawyer/developer ratio that SCO does. They certainly are a *busy* bunch of bastards.:)
WRT to Lindows: Microsoft lost that battle, Thank t'Great Guh:) ( unless something has happened that I didn't see? Please, tell me it's not true! I'd like to keep my supper down:)
But neither does his domain name contain the word "Microsoft".
However, it *does* contain his name, whose spelling in no way resembles "microsoft". I don't believe that Trademark law was intended to include phonetics.
His use of the site aside, NanoGator, I personally consider MS's threats against him bogus and totally uncalled for. But actions in this arena are not exactly news, where Microsoft(TM, etc) are concerned, are they?
and if anyone thinks that statement is bullshit, witness the "Free Speech Zones" that follow Dubya around like some bizarre political plague.
Parent poster is pretty darned close to the mark. I just hope he doesn't get arrested for it. After all, he's speaking out against out country's "leadership" - he MUST be a terrorist, right? Right?
A personal note: I know a half dozen people who fought in WWII and can still keep up on the news. They're infuriated at the direction our government is going in. Keep it in mind...
Slashdot Mirror
ShadowBearer rates grub's post in his top ten Funny/Insightful/Informative + many mods which exist not.
Oy, vey
SB
Not a bad idea, but probably a little much for Utah's "sensibilities" :)
SB
LOL!
Don't forget the Penguins. There must be Penguins on the side of it, too. BIG Penguins. Perhaps playing (water) polo with the SCO logo.... *WHACK*
Won't someone please think of the Penguins!
SB
That's right, we don't need no stinkin' badgers (heee, loved that one).
:)
We need Wolverines. Big, nasty, rapidly rabid Wolverines with a taste for Darl-flesh. And Tear Gas. And Heavy Weapons.
(apologies to H. Thompson)
SB
It's been a long time since I read the Challenger report, but I suspect you're right about the evidence part. Damning thing is, they were right anyway.
I've not had time to do more than skim CAIB. I see that I'll have to make some. What you say about the engineers does sound like the current NASA - more concerned about their careers than, well, their jobs. Sigh.
Thanks
SB
I see your point. Seperation would be difficult in this design.
I definitely agree about the clean sheet! The shuttle is a kludge.
It'd probably be easier if we designed two reusables; a crew carrier and a cargo carrier. We could design them on similar airframes to save money, and both would be more capable than the integrated design.
For missions where they need to be together in orbit, well, we developed rendezvous techniques a long time ago...
Personally I think it makes sense to have seperate vehicles from both a monetary and safety standpoint. The reusable cargo vehicles would mainly be used for orbital labs, retrieval of craft, etc; just plain ol' satellite launching we should leave to throwaway boosters.
A good analog would be ground/water transportation; with very few exceptions, we don't design vehicles/ships to both carry massive amounts of cargo and massive amounts of people.
SB
I'm replying to myself, but here's an answer to the grandparent post:
From the Atlantic Monthly article referenced earlier:
The possible significance of this was not lost on Cain: during the launch a piece of solid foam had broken off from the shuttle's external fuel tank, and at high speed had smashed into the left wing; after minimal consideration the shuttle program managers (who stood above Mission Control in the NASA hierarchy) had dismissed the incident as essentially unthreatening. Like almost everyone else at NASA, Cain had taken the managers at their word--and he still did.
That answer your question?
SB
Do you have a source for this? I've heard differently.
Insofar as Challenger is concerned, it's very well documented that managers at Morton-Thiokol and NASA squelched concerns about the O-rings on the SRBs.
I find it unlikely that those engineers whose concern it was to keep track of such things didn't make their case to their supervisors about the foam impact. I've heard that they did, but can't find the source right now, so I'd like to see where you heard that they didn't.
SB
Murder by mis- management.
I believe it's called manslaughter in the US.
SB
Actually in both accidents the crew cabin remained intact; I suspect little additional engineering would be required to ensure that, especially considering the stresses that the Columbia's crew cabin must have undergone during orbiter breakup. Protecting the crew from the g-forces involved would be damned difficult.
I do agree with the rest of what you said. I also think it's a solvable problem; perhaps for some future design. Not an easy problem, tho, by any means. Perhaps some of the new composites might help mitigate the mass factor.
SB
I experienced the same thing, mostly, I think, because I could finally *visualize* what was going on during the footage I've seen.
That said, I'd say it seems pretty likely that at least some of the crew were alive (possibly even conscious, depending on the g-forces in the crew cabin) up to the moment the cabin itself disintegrated.
*shudder*
In any case, I don't think there's any doubt that they knew what was happening to them...
We will never forget you.
SB
BRING BACK BERNIE!
We miss you^H^H^H the chuckles you provided us...
SB
Google may have blocked the SCO site, but www.caldera.com now comes up as the first hit, hee hee hee :)
...
SCO | SCO Grows Your Business
Click Here For More Information About SCOsource, SCO has recently issued
two letters intended to protect its intellectual property.
www.caldera.com/ - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
SB
hairy side of legal
Yeah, the Hairy Butt Crack side of legal, as in Bend Over so we can shove our enormous Litigation Dick a little bit deeper *puudumph* a little bit deeper *puuuudummmph*...
(apologies to George Carlin)
SB
Damn, that's the funniest rant I've read in a long, long time. Thanks. There should be a /. moderation +5 Insanely Hilarious.
:)
Oh, and I'm charging you $699 for the cleanup involved in removing the beer I spewed all over my desk
Hee hee! That one goes in the Funniest Rants Of All Time file!
Besides, the current maintainer is a power hungry jerk. When I find out who he is and where his sources are hosted, his project will be obsolete.
ROFLMAO
Mods, parent deserves top Funny mod!
SB
that's like beachfront property...that's still on the beach. An elephant on a table...
:)
Now *why* does this rhetoric remind me of someone else *cough*Dubya*cough*
SB
Actually the error rates in weather models are pretty high yet. Climate models are getting much better, but forward prediction with them is also very error prone.
:)
No confusion, just late and the finger-brain interface was fuzzy
SB
The study of avalanche flow falls within a field known as Geophysical Fluid Dynamics. Yes, there are a lot of similarities; what you're describing is known as a "power snow" avalanche; "dense snow" avalanches are considerably more complicated.
Some interesting reading
avalanche.org
SB
That's an fascinating article; thanks. They were talking about computer software, tho (I read it in a hurry, did I miss something?)
BTW, I believe that the truck on display at the Hibbing, MN Mining Museum is a 797. It's been a while, but the scale is right.
SB
Hee. His website survived, too. :) MikeRowe(soft): I'll be back :-)
Now it's Dupe time....like Bullet Time, but temporally inverted.
Burnin' the Late Hour Oil, also? Heh. I wish I remember how Data put it in TNG....it's late and I'm brain fried, pizza time, bed....sigh.
Slashdot can be worse than IRC. Really.
Good Guh, it's going on midnight. Argh. *Thud*
SB
This is an interesting experiment and all, but it resembles a real avalanche about as much as computer climate models resemble real weather.
A actual avalanche is orders of magnitude more complicated. It'd probably be easier, and much more informative, to simulate it on a computer, actually.
It does make for some good eye candy, tho, and I'd bet it was a whole lot of fun. As a serious scientific tool, it's probably not very effective in this day and age, given the better tools out there.
As a teaching tool, however, it has astounding potential, especially in primary education.
Just as an aside, I've witnessed a few large avalanches. I was fascinated (and horrified) at the time; the fascination came from observing the complex flows introduced by various things such as the underlying terrain, trees, assorted rocks, etc. I remember thinking the last time that it was a good demonstration of fluid flow dynamics. The horror came from watching several skiers get caught up in the snow flow. They survived, thank Guh.
(Disclaimer: IANAMathematician).
SB
a.) only phonetically.
:)
:) ( unless something has happened that I didn't see? Please, tell me it's not true! I'd like to keep my supper down :)
b.) Relevant portion? I don't recall having seen anything like that...and I'd be surprised that more companies aren't suing because of it. I'm curious about that.
WRT to radio ad: Legally, I can see your point. From a common sense standpoint, it's nonsense and absurd. But then so many things are in our great country nowadays....I can just see a 17 year old software dev being mistaken for The Great Microsoft. Uh, yeah. Stupider^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H sillier things have happened. Like he'd be advertising on national/international radio, anyway. Or anything but local.
I'm starting to think that Microsoft may have the same lawyer/developer ratio that SCO does. They certainly are a *busy* bunch of bastards.
WRT to Lindows: Microsoft lost that battle, Thank t'Great Guh
SB
But neither does his domain name contain the word "Microsoft".
However, it *does* contain his name, whose spelling in no way resembles "microsoft". I don't believe that Trademark law was intended to include phonetics.
His use of the site aside, NanoGator, I personally consider MS's threats against him bogus and totally uncalled for. But actions in this arena are not exactly news, where Microsoft(TM, etc) are concerned, are they?
Cheers
SB
and to stifle dissent
and if anyone thinks that statement is bullshit, witness the "Free Speech Zones" that follow Dubya around like some bizarre political plague.
Parent poster is pretty darned close to the mark. I just hope he doesn't get arrested for it. After all, he's speaking out against out country's "leadership" - he MUST be a terrorist, right? Right?
A personal note: I know a half dozen people who fought in WWII and can still keep up on the news. They're infuriated at the direction our government is going in. Keep it in mind...
SB
*grin*
SB