"I've never looked at Microsoft or Sun in detail, and run all of my assumptions from Slashdot"
"On Slashdot I only read the articles about Linux and hate SCO with a religious fanaticism, all of my views on software companies are therefore based on the SCO case"
"I have been working in Software only a few years and have no understanding of the history of either Sun, Microsoft or IBM and am not aware of what Sun actually does"
I'm sorry to be so rude, but to base an opinion on either Sun and MSFT around the SCO case is like saying that Sony and Philips are the same company because of the Intertrust case.
Project is down the tubes, its $5m over budget, everyone is doing 100 hours a week, code quality is rubbish, review doesn't exist. Management ASKING the development team to cut quality corners.
And everyone knows its going to get canned before it goes live.
Some gambling sites already use WAP, and next gen smartphones apps could easily do this sort of gambling functionality.
Why bet on a play being overturned... bet on the yardage of EACH and EVERY play. Use a betting exchange to co-ordinate across the people in the stadium and watching on TV... hey presto.
This isn't future stuff... this is now stuff. Most betting exchanges, if they just allowed WAP or created a smartphone app, or if you could use Opera on your P900, can do this today.
One thing I would love to see being developed out of OSS would be some software comms stack work to develop a low-bandwidth, high-latency stack that can shift service and data load as required.
Some architectural and design patterns that could be published on this would also help. I know from my experience of doing a global system for a large logicistics company it was a seperate system for Africa due to the restricted networks. Thus rather than shipments from South America to the Southern Middle East stopping in central africa they went to Europe as it was easier to track. Cost wise it would be better to use Africa, but without a decent infrastructure... or better yet a standard approach to poor infrastructure, it wasn't business effective.
Africa has a real reason to concentrate on the wireless and mobile sectors. It could already be ahead of the US, and by coping with its infrastructure issues OSS could provide a real platform for new tech companies to come from Africa.
The cluster stuff is cool... the dictionary is neat... but what here is going to make life better for people, and start bridging the gaps ?
How come there is only one Linux Kernel that is recognised ? Is it because the JCP with its reference implementations and verification kits creates a more open environment than Linux can hope to.
Lets put it this way... why is 802.11b/g etc successful ? Because its open source, or because there is an OPEN STANDARD with defined compliance kits ?
Java is like 802.11 & Ethernet... a success by being an Open Standard. Its only the implementations that should be OSS, like Blackdown and JBoss already are.
Sun, learn from your mistakes. There was a time when Java's license prevented abuse by Microsoft, but that time has passed. C# is Microsoft's new approach to "embrace and extend" Java, and the only effective way to counter it is to make Java fully open-source now, before C# inexorably crushes Java. The writing is on the wall yet again -- don't let Java die the same lingering death that NeWS suffered!
Sorry to be blunt here but I really get annoyed at people who just don't look at the market and think their little part of the world is right.
Currently the Enterprise Software space lines up as follows
Java: SAP, Oracle, IBM, Peoplesoft, WebMethods, TIBCO, SeeBeyond, BEA, Sun and LOADS of ISVs.Net: Microsoft
And in the Mobile space Java: Nokia, Ericsson, Sony, SAP, Oracle, IBM, Motorola, Symbian and LOADS of ISVs and handset people.
So with Java not being open-sourced, but running the Java Community Process... by which ANYONE can get involved in the future direction of the standard, propose modifications and have them incorporated.... err and how is this worse than Linux ? Java has managed to get 95%+ of the enterprise space, and last year 50% of phones sold ran Java, that is 1/4 billion devices. 98% of smartcards run Java.
For you to say that MS and C# will have to win if Java isn't OSSed then I'm sorry but its this sort of small minded view on the market that helps MS get to the position it is in.
The JCP is IMO the strongest OSS tool on the market, the standard is open, implementations can be open and there is a validation mechanism to make sure everything fits.
One of the most interesting things about these events is who pays and who doesn't, and how. With IEEE conferences pretty much everyone bar the chair pays, speakers included.
At most trade shows there are four groups of people
1) People who are "interesting" speakers so get in free
2) Vendor People who have paid for a booth and are damn well going to speak
3) People who the Vendors want to buy stuff, who get one or more of tickets, flights, hotels, food & booze paid for
4) People & companies who want to learn stuff so they pay to go.
Tradeshows are 100% about selling, without that bottom line the rest of it just wouldn't happen. You must realise that there are people who need to earn a living and its really the people in group 3 who matter at these events.
So your target is to get into group 3. There are various ways of doing this but the main ones are
1) Be an influencer within a large SI, this way the vendors get large bang per buck. An influencer (e.g. architect, account manager etc) can steer many projects your way
2) Have a decent sales ticket item that is coming up to tender (not out to tender or its a conflict)
3) Be a one vendor shop, standardise on a given vendor then screw them for freebies. You can also get great freebies from other vendors by pretending you are going to move.
These are the key ways to get in free. One thing to say about these tradeshows is to collect the business cards. If you have an issue with some software then its always great to be able to email someone senior in that organisation with the problem. Most of the time they just pass it on with the phrase "sort it" on. Which means you get the top man helping you out.
Tradeshows work, but they work in a commercial environment where vendors are looking at 6 and 7 figure deals... this is not about the cheap stuff.
Personally I'm a big fan of the email client on the P800. It works, is very simple and has no bells and whistles.
But them I'm a luddite who still uses emacs to read on Usenet because its scoring system is the best thing in the universe.... an email client with that in would be superb.
WLTM Bitch in Heat for romantic butt sniffing and frenzied humping. Any breed or cross breed is fine, I'm not breedist. Must have own walker and a good turn of speed. I'm a 200 pound Newfoundland so small dogs might not want to apply, unless you have been around a bit.
Sun has lost control of the Java development space. It does not provide leadership anymore or set the agenda. Open Source does. There is a wellspring of innovation in Open Source that beats the productivity of Microsoft's friendly tools.
It mentions the JCP but ignores the power of that organisation over the OSS world. Open Source certainly does NOT provide the leadership in the Application Server space, BEA, IBM and SAP do. Open Source does not provide leadership in the IDE space, BEA, Borland, Compuware and IBM do. Open Source does not provide leadership in the J2ME space, Sun, Nokia and Ericsson do.
What annoys me about this article is its assumption that XDoclet and Ant can be compared with a J2EE application server. And that _standards_ are not important. The JCP is the key to all of this. In the same way as Ethernet won because it was a standard the JCP lays down standards for the Java space. ANYONE can take part, it doesn't even cost you money. And you can have a say in the direction of the platform, in a much more direct way that you could have with Linux for instance.
The point this misses is that Java has not succeeded as well as it has by being fragmented, it has succeeded because it is standardised. The JCP enables all of the partners to determine what goes into the platform. Sun propose JSRs, but so do IBM and BEA... and Oracle.... and SAP... etc etc etc.
Open Source could learn much by looking at the JCP.
Consider Wi-Fi, why is 802.11x successful ? Because its all open source ? Or because a regulated standard works well in a commodity marketplace.
Sun with have commoditised the Application Server and Mobile platform spaces. The JCP has for several years been the key to that success.
The trouble with Open Source advocates is sometimes they see everything as a nail.
I mean, come on folks how much does this smack of the one thing everyone in the FSF/OSF movement dreads ? Namely a few developers getting too big for their boots and wanting to turn their free-software into the next Microsoft. Thus missing two key points
1) They haven't been given a monopoly by IBM
2) The reason anyone uses it is because it isn't a monopoly given by IBM.
Somebody somewhere wants to build an empire, and has applied.com maths to their business plan. Namely "If 100,000 people pay us just $1 a year that will pay for everything, and a new car" missing the fact that 100,000 people can bugger off elsewhere.
Ummm I wonder if IBM or Sun have ever had to write an XServer...
Can we expect Solaris 10 to be released to run on the x86 as well as Sparc hardware?
Quick answer: yes Long answer: YES
NB The above only works in proportional fonts.
But to add more. Sun are supporting Solaris x86 as standard going forwards and they have a strong alliance with AMD. Probably the best way to thing of Solaris x86 is as Solaris AMD, sure it might work on the old stuff... but it will fly on the AMD stuff.
One interesting enterprise question about N1, Solaris 10 etc is this.... right now all of the software vendors charge per-CPU. With N1/Solaris 10 you can move to capacity based SLAs.
How will Oracle charge for the DB when you can't say how many CPUs its running on ?
what was a difference of interpretation into worldwide controversy
Err no, what was a complete and utter load of bollocks that was presented as a fact. The 45 minute claim was a single sourced piece of information about battlefield weapons that the UK goverment led people to believe refered to long-range weapons.
It was pure and simple rubbish, if it had been in a company report then you'd be calling for them to be prosecuted for fraud.
The initial fact is not in doubt. Iraq had _no_ WMD that could be ready in 45 mins, and had no long range capabilities.
And yet again I will stand there while the person behind the counter asks questions repeatedly and sees 14 things on his screen that he has to check.
"Have you been involved in an armed robbery in Des Moines?"
And all of this after the green form that asks you if you are a terrorist or drug smuggler.
I know this is a moan, but really what the hell information will they ACTUALLY use to colour code people ? I have a common name, there are people with that name who have done bad things, does this mean yet more delays for me?
Umm strangely I've been developing large scale apps in Java, C, Ada, C++ and a few others for quite a long time.
When ever performance was a problem in our large scale systems we did the following
1) Buy more memory 2) Buy more hardware
THEN we'd worry about optimsation. If you are paying $10m for the software build who cares about a 30% increase in the $1m kit cost ? But a 10% increase because we start "optimising" would be noticed.
Large scale systems have different problems, performance is in my experience rarely one of them.
Unless of course your architecture is shit, then you are screwed no matter what the language is.
And remember that writing and maintaining a system in multiple programming languages represents a significant over-head and increase in the total cost for that system. This is why organisations standardise on Java, performance isn't that important, its the cost of ownership that matters.
And as with any performance test however all you have to do is wait 12 months or pay more for the hardware today.
But then if Java is quick enough anyway... why worry ?
Slashdot Mirror
"I've never looked at Microsoft or Sun in detail, and run all of my assumptions from Slashdot"
"On Slashdot I only read the articles about Linux and hate SCO with a religious fanaticism, all of my views on software companies are therefore based on the SCO case"
"I have been working in Software only a few years and have no understanding of the history of either Sun, Microsoft or IBM and am not aware of what Sun actually does"
I'm sorry to be so rude, but to base an opinion on either Sun and MSFT around the SCO case is like saying that Sony and Philips are the same company because of the Intertrust case.
Project is down the tubes, its $5m over budget, everyone is doing 100 hours a week, code quality is rubbish, review doesn't exist. Management ASKING the development team to cut quality corners.
And everyone knows its going to get canned before it goes live.
Oh boy was moral good.
Some gambling sites already use WAP, and next gen smartphones apps could easily do this sort of gambling functionality.
Why bet on a play being overturned... bet on the yardage of EACH and EVERY play. Use a betting exchange to co-ordinate across the people in the stadium and watching on TV... hey presto.
This isn't future stuff... this is now stuff. Most betting exchanges, if they just allowed WAP or created a smartphone app, or if you could use Opera on your P900, can do this today.
One thing I would love to see being developed out of OSS would be some software comms stack work to develop a low-bandwidth, high-latency stack that can shift service and data load as required.
Some architectural and design patterns that could be published on this would also help. I know from my experience of doing a global system for a large logicistics company it was a seperate system for Africa due to the restricted networks. Thus rather than shipments from South America to the Southern Middle East stopping in central africa they went to Europe as it was easier to track. Cost wise it would be better to use Africa, but without a decent infrastructure... or better yet a standard approach to poor infrastructure, it wasn't business effective.
Africa has a real reason to concentrate on the wireless and mobile sectors. It could already be ahead of the US, and by coping with its infrastructure issues OSS could provide a real platform for new tech companies to come from Africa.
The cluster stuff is cool... the dictionary is neat... but what here is going to make life better for people, and start bridging the gaps ?
Java currently has several core implementations
Sun, Blackdown (OSS), IBM
J2EE has several implementations
SAP, Oracle, IBM, Sun, JBoss(OSS), BEA etc
J2ME has several implementations
Sun, SavaJE etc etc
How come there is only one Linux Kernel that is recognised ? Is it because the JCP with its reference implementations and verification kits creates a more open environment than Linux can hope to.
Lets put it this way... why is 802.11b/g etc successful ? Because its open source, or because there is an OPEN STANDARD with defined compliance kits ?
Java is like 802.11 & Ethernet... a success by being an Open Standard. Its only the implementations that should be OSS, like Blackdown and JBoss already are.
Sun, learn from your mistakes. There was a time when Java's license prevented abuse by Microsoft, but that time has passed. C# is Microsoft's new approach to "embrace and extend" Java, and the only effective way to counter it is to make Java fully open-source now, before C# inexorably crushes Java. The writing is on the wall yet again -- don't let Java die the same lingering death that NeWS suffered!
.Net:
Sorry to be blunt here but I really get annoyed at people who just don't look at the market and think their little part of the world is right.
Currently the Enterprise Software space lines up as follows
Java:
SAP, Oracle, IBM, Peoplesoft, WebMethods, TIBCO, SeeBeyond, BEA, Sun and LOADS of ISVs
Microsoft
And in the Mobile space
Java:
Nokia, Ericsson, Sony, SAP, Oracle, IBM, Motorola, Symbian and LOADS of ISVs and handset people.
So with Java not being open-sourced, but running the Java Community Process... by which ANYONE can get involved in the future direction of the standard, propose modifications and have them incorporated.... err and how is this worse than Linux ? Java has managed to get 95%+ of the enterprise space, and last year 50% of phones sold ran Java, that is 1/4 billion devices. 98% of smartcards run Java.
For you to say that MS and C# will have to win if Java isn't OSSed then I'm sorry but its this sort of small minded view on the market that helps MS get to the position it is in.
The JCP is IMO the strongest OSS tool on the market, the standard is open, implementations can be open and there is a validation mechanism to make sure everything fits.
Get Mom an Atari ST with 1024Mb of RAM and a Prolog browser with FORTRAN email. Security by PAIN. WHO cares if you Know it? Is it wierd?...
One of the most interesting things about these events is who pays and who doesn't, and how. With IEEE conferences pretty much everyone bar the chair pays, speakers included.
At most trade shows there are four groups of people
1) People who are "interesting" speakers so get in free
2) Vendor People who have paid for a booth and are damn well going to speak
3) People who the Vendors want to buy stuff, who get one or more of tickets, flights, hotels, food & booze paid for
4) People & companies who want to learn stuff so they pay to go.
Tradeshows are 100% about selling, without that bottom line the rest of it just wouldn't happen. You must realise that there are people who need to earn a living and its really the people in group 3 who matter at these events.
So your target is to get into group 3. There are various ways of doing this but the main ones are
1) Be an influencer within a large SI, this way the vendors get large bang per buck. An influencer (e.g. architect, account manager etc) can steer many projects your way
2) Have a decent sales ticket item that is coming up to tender (not out to tender or its a conflict)
3) Be a one vendor shop, standardise on a given vendor then screw them for freebies. You can also get great freebies from other vendors by pretending you are going to move.
These are the key ways to get in free. One thing to say about these tradeshows is to collect the business cards. If you have an issue with some software then its always great to be able to email someone senior in that organisation with the problem. Most of the time they just pass it on with the phrase "sort it" on. Which means you get the top man helping you out.
Tradeshows work, but they work in a commercial environment where vendors are looking at 6 and 7 figure deals... this is not about the cheap stuff.
Personally I'm a big fan of the email client on the P800. It works, is very simple and has no bells and whistles.
But them I'm a luddite who still uses emacs to read on Usenet because its scoring system is the best thing in the universe.... an email client with that in would be superb.
And not running OWA then you are pretty much buggered.
You'd almost think that was a case of Microsoft using a monopoly position to exclude competition.
WLTM Bitch in Heat for romantic butt sniffing and frenzied humping. Any breed or cross breed is fine, I'm not breedist. Must have own walker and a good turn of speed. I'm a 200 pound Newfoundland so small dogs might not want to apply, unless you have been around a bit.
Likes: Butt sniffing and frenzied humping
Dislikes: Buckets of Cold water
Ummm but over 2 years...
SCO vs RedHat
SCO vs IBM
It might be a slight dip now... but DAMN its been profitable.
Oh but Hands up everyone who didn't buy RedHat stock at the start of 2002.... go to the back of the stock brokers class.
Sun has lost control of the Java development space. It does not provide leadership anymore or set the agenda. Open Source does.
There is a wellspring of innovation in Open Source that beats the productivity of Microsoft's friendly tools.
It mentions the JCP but ignores the power of that organisation over the OSS world. Open Source certainly does NOT provide the leadership in the Application Server space, BEA, IBM and SAP do. Open Source does not provide leadership in the IDE space, BEA, Borland, Compuware and IBM do. Open Source does not provide leadership in the J2ME space, Sun, Nokia and Ericsson do.
What annoys me about this article is its assumption that XDoclet and Ant can be compared with a J2EE application server. And that _standards_ are not important. The JCP is the key to all of this. In the same way as Ethernet won because it was a standard the JCP lays down standards for the Java space. ANYONE can take part, it doesn't even cost you money. And you can have a say in the direction of the platform, in a much more direct way that you could have with Linux for instance.
The point this misses is that Java has not succeeded as well as it has by being fragmented, it has succeeded because it is standardised. The JCP enables all of the partners to determine what goes into the platform. Sun propose JSRs, but so do IBM and BEA... and Oracle.... and SAP... etc etc etc.
Open Source could learn much by looking at the JCP.
Consider Wi-Fi, why is 802.11x successful ? Because its all open source ? Or because a regulated standard works well in a commodity marketplace.
Sun with have commoditised the Application Server and Mobile platform spaces. The JCP has for several years been the key to that success.
The trouble with Open Source advocates is sometimes they see everything as a nail.
They also didn't go looking at application servers made by such minnows of the Software world as Oracle... or indeed Sun.
The article misses many points, and the price issue is just one of them.
yep. there was no such thing as murder before guns were invented.
oh wait.
Way off topic but what the hell.... of course there was murder.. and pretty violent murder. But Drive bys ? Massacres not associated with wars ?
Of all the ones you've mentioned... NONE, not ONE have ever been used successfully in drive-by events.
Or have you heard of a drive by poisoning ?
Yes, and I could kidnap bums and sell their organs on the black market for profit, but you don't see me doing that.
Did that for a while, but I was undercut by people based in Washington
And corporations could cut corners and ship potentially dangerous products, saving them a lot of money and putting their customers at risk.
Yup I was on the Ford Bronco team...
And lawyers could do half-ass jobs and let their clients get on death row.
Good money though, and hell they must be guilty if they got me as a Lawyer.
And loggers could cut down every single tree they find and make money off it.
I'm pretty sure that this is general goverment policy but its certainly a nice little earner if you want to cross into Canada and squeal about NAFTA.
The point is, even if it's profitable, it's not responsible, and it's ultimately detrimental to society.
Yeah... but hell I've got a Ferrari, a chalet in Gstaad, a condo in Malibu and a penthouse in Manhattan. Society can kiss my detrmental ass.
If I hadn't made money from it I wouldn't have done it.
It made "economic sense" to kill DiLivio as if he had gone to the cops I'd have gone to prison.
It makes "economic sense" to cook the books like Enron as you get rich, all you are doing is using the market and obeying basic forces.
It makes "economic sense" to use slave and child labour, its cheaper, all you are doing is obeying basic market forces.
Oh and Guns don't kill people... number of deaths as a result of "drive by Sarcasm hits" still at zero however.
in the morning.
.com maths to their business plan. Namely "If 100,000 people pay us just $1 a year that will pay for everything, and a new car" missing the fact that 100,000 people can bugger off elsewhere.
I mean, come on folks how much does this smack of the one thing everyone in the FSF/OSF movement dreads ? Namely a few developers getting too big for their boots and wanting to turn their free-software into the next Microsoft. Thus missing two key points
1) They haven't been given a monopoly by IBM
2) The reason anyone uses it is because it isn't a monopoly given by IBM.
Somebody somewhere wants to build an empire, and has applied
Ummm I wonder if IBM or Sun have ever had to write an XServer...
Can we expect Solaris 10 to be released to run on the x86 as well as Sparc hardware?
Quick answer: yes
Long answer: YES
NB The above only works in proportional fonts.
But to add more. Sun are supporting Solaris x86 as standard going forwards and they have a strong alliance with AMD. Probably the best way to thing of Solaris x86 is as Solaris AMD, sure it might work on the old stuff... but it will fly on the AMD stuff.
One interesting enterprise question about N1, Solaris 10 etc is this.... right now all of the software vendors charge per-CPU. With N1/Solaris 10 you can move to capacity based SLAs.
How will Oracle charge for the DB when you can't say how many CPUs its running on ?
The IDC study is such rubbish. It talks of Linux developers and ISVs...
And fails to mention the two corporate giants who are backing and rolling out Linux across the globe. Sun and IBM.
Its like talking about the Superbowl, but not mentioning the teams.
what was a difference of interpretation into worldwide controversy
Err no, what was a complete and utter load of bollocks that was presented as a fact. The 45 minute claim was a single sourced piece of information about battlefield weapons that the UK goverment led people to believe refered to long-range weapons.
It was pure and simple rubbish, if it had been in a company report then you'd be calling for them to be prosecuted for fraud.
The initial fact is not in doubt. Iraq had _no_ WMD that could be ready in 45 mins, and had no long range capabilities.
The BBC was not _wrong_ in its report.
And yet again I will stand there while the person behind the counter asks questions repeatedly and sees 14 things on his screen that he has to check.
"Have you been involved in an armed robbery in Des Moines?"
And all of this after the green form that asks you if you are a terrorist or drug smuggler.
I know this is a moan, but really what the hell information will they ACTUALLY use to colour code people ? I have a common name, there are people with that name who have done bad things, does this mean yet more delays for me?
Umm strangely I've been developing large scale apps in Java, C, Ada, C++ and a few others for quite a long time.
When ever performance was a problem in our large scale systems we did the following
1) Buy more memory
2) Buy more hardware
THEN we'd worry about optimsation. If you are paying $10m for the software build who cares about a 30% increase in the $1m kit cost ? But a 10% increase because we start "optimising" would be noticed.
Large scale systems have different problems, performance is in my experience rarely one of them.
Unless of course your architecture is shit, then you are screwed no matter what the language is.
And remember that writing and maintaining a system in multiple programming languages represents a significant over-head and increase in the total cost for that system. This is why organisations standardise on Java, performance isn't that important, its the cost of ownership that matters.
And as with any performance test however all you have to do is wait 12 months or pay more for the hardware today.
But then if Java is quick enough anyway... why worry ?
Every one who proclaims a Silver Bullet is doomed to be considered a fool.
Sorry, but Brookes was right, there is no Silver bullet, and Python certainly is not it.
1) BPM in Python
2) Adaptor Strategies and Toolkits in Python
3) Distributed Transactions in Python
4) Clustering and Caching strategies in Python
Java is irrelevant as a language, its the support and tools it has that makes it a good platform choice.