Slashdot Mirror
Passenger Risk Database to be Implemented in U.S.
bluephile writes "CNN is running an article on the The Transport Security Administration's (TSA) renewed efforts to implement the CAPPS II color-coded passenger risk-assessment program, despite outcries by numerous privacy activism groups at the program's collection and redistribution of personal information. The TSA has made several claims that the system respects passengers' privacy, but their track record isn't impressive. Congress suspended the program last year in order to investigate its privacy implications. One MIT paper suggests that CAPPS II could make flying MORE dangerous, rather than less."
Now it's Homer Simpson's cue, "Oh, what a bleak and horrible future we live in! "
On the other hand, I was promised flying cars! Where the hell are my flying cars?
fp
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
This is just one more step closer to all of us getting boned.
I'm sib888, and I approved this comment.
They could save a lot of time and money if they would just red-flag every black and Arabic person in line.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
This is not an invasion of privacy. It is a reasonable precaution to allow the government to reduce the chance of someone bad getting on an airplane and killing people. What good are civil liberties when you're dead?
Airplanes can't be hijacked anymore after 9/11. People now realize that it's not a matter of demanding your comrade be released from prison, but instead a matter of taking control of the world's biggest bomb. Nobody is going to yield to a terrorist carrying anything short of an automatic firearm.
The solution to stopping terrorism on flights is two-fold. One, everyone travels naked, without carrying thing on the plane. Two, luggage goes on a second plane operated by robots.
The terrorists will start taking the train.
run on solaris? i heard its good for this kinda thing.
Stop flying, eventually the airlines will figure out that people won't pay to have thier privacy invaded and they will lobby Congress to stop this nonsense. I'd say write your reps but that doesn't seem to do much anymore unless you have some big money behind it.
Color Coded, eh? Now I can sleep easier at night, knowing I am protectected by a color coded system. I wonder if this will be about as useless as our fabled Homeland Security "Orange Alerts"?
be put on the list.
;)
If they didn't hate America they wouldn't be on the list.
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
Well they'll only get me for one flight...As i move to Canada...
"In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength. In water there is bacteria." --Old German Proverb
The links actually post to the same paper in MIT. Perhaps the second link was fupped ?
Last two links both lead to the same page!
Proofreading is optional in internet journalism, apparently.
Hate me!
Thank god for DVD players in cars now... That will make those 3 day trips cross country with the family much quieter.
--
This sig has a bad credit report
Security guy..
Are you carrying any package handed to you by a stranger?
Have you packed your bags yourself?
Are you a terrorist?
If so are you carrying a bomb or box cutters?
There could be airlines that do more background checks (probably at a higher cost) but with a lowered risk of terrorism (maybe). At the same time, you could have airlines that don't care who you are as long as you have the cash. Let the free market decide which airline people prefer, or if they want something in the middle.
I like a good drive anyway.
XM radio, DVD players. Now I need WiFi for on the road.
Orwell, what is he, is he good or is he whack
This may be obvious, but this is yet one more reason that re-affirms my pre-9/11 decision to not fly anymore unless I'm absolutely forced into it, and I'm very inventive about finding justification for other means (such as driving).
I've had it with the airline industry and their rather poor attempt at feel-good security (which isn't security at all). I have no intention of becoming part of the grand experiment of how an agency or company can screw up and compromise my financial records and my privacy even more. I simply will not be their guinea pig.
The more complex they make these systems, the more points of failure they add.
I'm lucky in that I'm at a job that doesn't require me to fly, and anywhere I need to reach in North America, I can do so with my car. Properly planned without a panic-timeframe schedule, such trips can actually be enjoyable, in and of themselves.
to where time stands still where no one leaves and no one ever will...
they whisper things into my brain ensuring me that I'm insane...
Sanitarium... leave me be
Click here to do something about this.
If you have a bad credit score, be prepared for a full body cavity search.
If the idea is to test whether CAPPS II can accurately determine the risk level of a potential flyer, I don't see how they can accomplish this with data from old passengers. Don't they also need data on how much each of those passengers ended up BEING a RISK?
I don't know how you'd even begin to come up with such data. But if you can't figure out how much of a risk each passenger actually was, how can you see whether this correlates with the risk score CAPPS spits out? As far as I can see, this massive breach of passenger confidentiality will do nothing to test the efficacy of CAPPS.
(As far as I know, no terrorist acts have been committed on JetBlue, so all passengers who have flown on JetBlue should have been given the "Green" CAPPS rating. Hence once they feed this passenger data through CAPPS, it better spit out low risk for everybody. Otherwise, this profiling obviously isn't working.)
Credit reports? Yes, I'll admit it, I got my car payment in the mail late last February. Is that really a sign that I'm part of an Al-Qaeda hijacking conspiracy?
welcome to nazi germany 1945..
..
there goes the remainder of our freedoms..
next is the DNA sampling
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
-
I have no credit history because I have little income and can't get a credit card.
-
I pay cash because I can get a discount
-
I buy a one way ticket because I wont be returning until I have earned enough money to afford a return journey
Will I be barred from travel? I think I might. At the very least I'm likely to be detained for further questioning.Why not get the real ultimate power?
Hurray! Once again, let's make this country safer by scaring the piss outta everyone in it! First they brought us convenient color codes to tell us just how much we should be crapping in our pants on any given day but now we can even pick our friends based on their red orange or blue status! Don't worry, the government treats everyone equally.
And what will the mantra be this time? "Be suspicious of the red-banded cohorts... but don't change your plans." Just like the "Terrorism Alert Level"; be nice and scared enough to fall into line but please, not so much that you question the ability, necessity, or morality of "the man." After all, questioning the government is unpatriotic.
Oh crap... with that diatribe I just 'elevated' my status to orange. Mod me down damnit.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
Why? Because the rules have changed. Prior to 9/11, the thought was that if you cooperated with the hijackers and take them where they wanted to go, most people would be released safely. Now we know they have no intention of releasing passengers safely, so you will die if you let them do what they want. Passengers will fight back, because if they fight back, the odds are still better that they'll survive.
That's not to say pilots, locked in the cabin, trained for missions years in advance couldn't do things with the planes. Background checks should be performed on all pilots regularly.
hyperlinking multiple words like this poster did is very informative to those here that do RTFA ;)
great prose as well.
And yet again I will stand there while the person behind the counter asks questions repeatedly and sees 14 things on his screen that he has to check.
"Have you been involved in an armed robbery in Des Moines?"
And all of this after the green form that asks you if you are a terrorist or drug smuggler.
I know this is a moan, but really what the hell information will they ACTUALLY use to colour code people ? I have a common name, there are people with that name who have done bad things, does this mean yet more delays for me?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
You know who else had flare? The Nazis also had flare. They made the Jews wear it. -Office Space -
Tech News, Reviews and Tutorials
What?! You said NO??
Well, give me liberty or give me death then!
This would not have stopped 9-11. Making me wait in security lines an extra hour at the airport would not have stopped 9-11. Making old ladies take their shoes off before boarding planes would not have stopped 9-11.
I know that my personal files are interesting, but I'd rather keep them private, thankyouverymuch.
Does anyone here really think that terrorists will try a 9/11 again? The federal government, in order to slowly erode privacy laws until the court rules draconian measures legal, is going quite overboard in restricting passengers on flights. Most likely, the system will have some hidden profiling features built in, like finding someone's perceived political affiliation, and especially religion and country of origin.
If I were a terrorist, of course, I wouldn't even bother with planes -- I would use mortars. They can be set up in complete defilade, and can be fired at huge ranges, even from wooded areas across the Potomac river. An explosive expert could probably build a mortar system, as they're primitive devices, but smuggling the parts for one into the country would be quite easy. Someone skilled with explosives could also put in radiological material and contaminate something like a nuclear power plant or a major business area indefinitely, and shut it down, causing havoc. Worst of all, they could get away with it.
What I mean to say, however, is that the eggs shouldn't be put in one basket for preventing more plane hijackings. They can lock down planes as much as they want, but the chain preventing terrorism is only as strong as the weakest link.
-1 fucking dumbass
If you want to do something about it, the ACLU allows you to send free snail mail, e-mail, or faxes to your representatives, just by filling in your zip code and a little contact info (I usually get canned letters back from my reps when I fax them.) Here's the link(the zip code field is at the bottom). If you're interested, this is a very fast, and simple way to get through to your representatives. Of course, I have no idea if it has any real effect, but anything is better than nothing..
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
People will not be protected under this rediculous plan as it would appear this is nothing more than big brother being allowed to aggregate data on U.S. citizens and profile us.
Nowhere is it mentioned and nor is it possible that the 55 Million foreign visitors that enter the U.S. every year will be able to have a similar amount of data regarding their potential threat assesment be calculated as the U.S. Government doesn't have access to credit and criminal data about any of the 310 Million Europeans or the 1.2 Billion Chinese or any other nation.
So it would appear this measure is only intended to know who is traveling within the U.S. and how to make it more difficult for deadwood Americans to be pestered away from using valuable resources better used by others.
Just looking at the last few weeks of stories there are ones on the FBI trying to intercept VOIP, RFID tag databases for monitoring, this database for monitoring traveller. It seems that no matter what you do in the states it will be now or later monitored.....Next you'll have to ask permission to do things....
Why don't they just get some of those paint sample gradient sheets, except with various skin tones. Then they hand them out to the screeners and say that people darker than X get searched, and people darker than Y get handed over to security.
It'd be just as effective and a hell of a lot cheaper.
In other news, Al Queda agents and officials retired en masse today. Evidentally, the U.S. government is now doing a far better job of making Americans fearful and submissive than Al Queda could hope to do with the techniques they have. "We did a lot of damage and killed a lot of people," said one unnamed source. "But Americans responded only with defiance and belligerence. Within a couple of months, they'd gotten on with their lives. The DHS, on the other hand, can frighten the American people practically at will, just by announcing rumors or cancelling a plane flight. In this climate, we can't hope to compete."
Representatives of the Bush Administration called the mass retirement a possible ruse, and urged people to remember all the rumored attacks that might have been thwarted had Al Queda attempted any attack on U.S. soil since domestic security initiatives were put in place.
n/t
We're 90 or so comments into a YRO article and "Fantastic Lad" has not yet joined the party to offer his own deluded, ranting opinion. What has happened to the world?
Oh, FL, YOU'RE A TWAT!
if it's cancer, that's definitely wack. it's WACK, not WHACK.
Until there's a better way, air passengers should ship their baggage ahead of time, on cargo planes. Once their baggage is received at their destination, they receive an email/voicemail receipt, or ship another on a priority cargo flight. Carryon is limited to stuff like books or magazines - AV entertainment is supplied by the airline, if at all. This plan minimizes not only the risk of weapons, but also the schlepping of crap through airports. Everything is simplified and made cheaper, as well as increasing the passenger capacity of planes.
--
make install -not war
the TRUTH!
http://www.viewaskew.com/tv/leno/flyingcar.html
I mod down pyramid schemes in sigs.
Can you think of anything more embarrassing than having it happen again though? Nothing would make us feel more unsafe.
Pretty Pictures!
And hey, before you go nuts, I lived there and have very good friends there, but with the current government scenario, I no longer wish to participate in the smoke and mirror parade which is the American dream, in any respect, and thus I'm not going to the States again until it changes.
You'll see. The American flight industry will suffer from this, grandly...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
funniest thing i've heard today.
TIA v1.2 up and running; using SCO UnixWare.
Trace log: Started.
Trace log: Complete
Hate me!
Everyone complained about the airlines getting bail-outs of government money. Well, now they're really going to need them.
Hopefully, on the positive side, now that everyone with half a brain has decided to stop flying in protest, I'll be able to get those cheap seats to Cancun! Viva La Dumbass!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Copied post! Copied! Karma whore!
First off, I strongly doubt this system can work.
.03% were "red." Since then, there have been a handful of other "red" passengers (shoe bomber, maybe one or two others.)
For it to be feasible, the number of false positives has to be very, very low. If more than say a tenth of one percent of travellers come up "red," then it's broken.
Let's say that at any given time there are 60,000 people flying in the USA. On Sep. 11, 2001, 19 of those people, or
Here's a test that I bet will never be performed: Feed in all the data we had about Mohammed Atta et. al, from Sep 11th. See what color the system flags them. If it's not "red" than what makes anyone think this system will be of any help? And while you're at it, feed in the data for everybody on those flights. Any false positives?
We are looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack, except we're looking in the wrong haystack since, as others have pointed out, a 9-11 style takeover won't succeed these days, since (1) air marshalls have guns and (2) the passengers will fight back.
This is a pork barrel project, it's just that the normal pork we're all used to has been replaced with new Homeland Security flavored pork.
*puts on tin-foil hat* At least then when they start using some sort of from-a-distance-mental-state-reader, I'll be protected. I think part of the point that Dubya and the rest of his me-too's is missing is that airplanes are just one target, albeit a big fat jucy one. We make airplanes impossible to hijack (so we all fly naked and the cargo and our clothes go on another plane), and they simply go after something else. Trains. Buses (look at Israel, sadly), Starbucks. COMDEX. Whatever. Band-aid on a gunshot wound. Ultimately, the bullet still wins.
Chris Knight is my hero.
It seems that the people that outcry the most invalidate their pleas by going to extremes. The whole worrying so intensively about distribution of personal information isn't expressed well at all. It's not like that concept is new at all, the prospect of your information getting used for marketing as discussed on the website is hardly a new idea and there are already an abundance of channels through which the information is propgated. The information provided to establish your color code doesn't appear to be anything that's not available in public records anyway. Your probably have more reason to bitch about your credit report being available to so many people. I think if you want to complain, don't envelope the whole plan in some tyrannical shell. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep track of things like criminal records instead of just leaving it up to conclusions drawn on appearances. If the information is exploited or information which is unfairly obtained or which is personal and doesn't have a bearing on the safety of others comes into the scenario...then attack that (and not stuff next to it). Civil rights are sacred, but it invalidates complaints about infringements against them when attacks are made against things which are legitimate.
I don't try to be right, I just try to make people think
So what if I'm accidentally tagged as red/orange? How impossible would it be for me to clear up the mistake? Or can I do 20 years of community service to have my color lowered to yellow.
Bad, bad, BAD idea.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Let all the passenrers wear a star. an american star of course. i wouldn't want to make any references to any hystoric events.
let the stars be:
- white for pure americans.
- green for friends or useful people
- yellow is in doubt
- red if the passenger is a poor, ill, jobless, non-christian, non-pro-america, extremist passenger.
hey, i have the right to know who i'm sitting next to!
hell, am i happy that we finally respect brown, homosexual etcetera people. how long will it take before every muslim is NOT a terrorist by default???
this is all just SO frelling ironic. in order to PRESERVE freedom we only LIMIT all kinds of freedom. in the end i feel insecure and limited!
Privacy is terrorism.
Why don't some of you come up with better systems, instead of complaining what a tragedy this is. I would be willing to bet that most of those complaining about this don't fly now as it is.
As I read the articles about CAPPS II, or whatever this thing is called, I sense that this project is trying to rectify the excessive false red flags of the current system. Isn't that something that should be welcomed? How many of you are really so important that you need anonymity when you travel, and would be inconvenienced by giving enough personal information to verify that you are who you say you are?
Too many people are having hissy fits and throwing lawyers at the airlines to thwart a legitimate program enacted by the government. For God's sakes people, they are just trying to do their constitutional duty of protecting the country, and protecting the lives of innocent people. If you have real solutions to the problem, then volunteer them, otherwise shut the f@#$ up.
-- Len
"War is the continuation of politics by other means." --Carl von Clausewitz
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
Although the government is usally given the short end of the trust stick, in theory its as good as any idea.
consider the following:
current system:
-long lines on holidays
-you gotto smell the next guys socks while waiting in long lines
-hassle of removing your laptop for examination -everyone gets bothered
future working system:
-fingerprint, automatic door opens and your in!
(you can even give the middle one if you dont like the automatic system. in fact why not just bundle security, airline and everything into finger prints..goodbye passports.
-less people getting hasled.
why does everyone think only they will be the ones being picked out???
my own 2 cents.
sorry officer, left my sig in my other computer.
Ahhh...I love the Internet. You never have to worry about being the craziest person in the room.
We've been discussing the latest airport security measures on one of my technology mailing lists. The posts tend to be either about technical issues that need to be considered when constructing such a system or the program's implications on privacy. I think it's overly intrusive and I don't like the idea of our government aggregating all of that data on us, but one of the people on the list has taken it to the next level. She has developed a theory that the airport security measures are just one piece in a bigger scheme. According to her, the airport security system is actually a precurser to reinstating the draft. It's real purpose isn't to keep out terrorists but to prevent people of draft age from leaving the country once the legislation is passed. As soon as the draft goes into effect, all eligible citizens will be banned from international travel.
It's the queers. They're in it with the aliens. They're building landing strips for gay martians....
When violence rules the world outside / And the headlines make me want to cry / It's not the time to just keep quiet
... that you aren't doing racial profiling, do you really want to create a "color-coded" system?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
FYI, the MIT paper you reference is an analysis of the original CAPS system, not the CAPSII system.
Now I need WiFi for on the road.
Just get a Centrino-certified laptop. According to the adds, I can get WiFi atop Everest with Centrino!
I noticed the MIT paper quotes discredited research (Peppered Moth perching on tree bark, proven to be fabricated because the moths do not perch on tree bark)
That does not immediately discredit the paper but it warrants additional scrutiny if they are willing to use fabricated research as additional evidence. The math is slightly off as well. 2% chance is 2/100, when the non CAPS flagged terrorist would actually have 2/94 or 2.12% chance. The point is still valid 2.12% is still smaller than 8% but I would expect better from a MIT paper.
(for the non statistics readers) The reason the non CAPS flagged terrorist chance of random screening is higher than 2% is because the random 2% is exclusive of the 6% set. A plane with 100 passengers would have 6 passengers automatically screened because of CAPS and 2 of the remaining 94 screened randomly.
and the exceptional posting made the related links so helpfull.
Related Links
CNN
article
CAPPS II
numerous
privacy
activism
groups
collection and redistribution
TSA
made
several
claims
their
track
record
isn't
suspended
paper
More Privacy stories
Also by michael
http://bl4bm.org/portal.php for all the brothas'.
>>Per CNN: Under CAPPS II, TSA will obtain the passenger's full name, home address, home telephone number, birth date and some information about that passenger's itinerary.
Except for the flight itinerary, this kind of information isn't really private. Everything is already a matter of public record. Once something is public, why worry about privacy?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Foreign journalists are already being harrased as it is.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
...so, I take it the reinforced doors aren't that "reinforced"?
Why do we need more than this? To protect them from the guns that we have placed on the planes on purpose in the form of marshalls? Can a box cutter get through them? If not, then why do they check for them on check in? It seems that if "they" can't get to the controls, and they know it, then why would someone attempt a hijack? Even if the dumbasses did attempt a hijack, the aircraft couldn't be "commandeered" ala not getting to the cockpit, so... If they merely wanted to kill people it seems a plane would be the last place one would try to penetrate. There are far less secure places, always has been. It seems hijacking would be the only reason to take a gun on a plane. So, what then would be the point of this new intrusion on the part of the TSA?
Is this all part of the fantastic ruse to instill fear just a little bit more, or is this just a tactic to gain info on people? It surely doesn't seem that "hijacking" is a credible threat anymore. Make the cockpit secure and you've turned the thing into a flying bus, no more. Let me throught the damn checkout line, please!
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
Government inspected you...
and determined whether you were able to travel freely within your own country.
Not funny? No, it isn't.
Let's color-code everybody in the US, and publish that information on the web! Then we'll all know exactly who to blacklist, harrass, and run out of our neighborhoods for being "Un-American"! After all, "Better dead than red!"
People are expecting the next terrorist hit to be a spectacular like 9/11, but while the terrorist may be misguided and even insane, stupid they are not. Watch for deadly events in off-the-beaten-track spots like Portland, Oregon, or perhaps Lindon Utah. See them start to take out less impressive targets more often. That is, if al Qaeda even really exists as some huge world terror organization, and I don't think it has been proven that it does.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Oh I see. Not when it's your information. If its the RIAAs information, no one has the right to sue file traders, but if it's your information, that's another story. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Didn't we try this in the 50's, when people considered dangerous to US (because of communist party affiliation) were color-coded as "red"?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
You're screwed. Sorry.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Ahh yes, and yet the reasons for leaving still roll in...
:-)
God, I'm so worried that the Government is trying to make security more efficient and effective. It is terrible that they're going to make it harder for terrorists to get onto planes!
Here's a bit of advice: If you don't want a white glove and flashlight up your ass, don't support or carry out terrorism. It's really not that difficult.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
And should therefore be able to underly older techniques without bringing security procedures to a crawl.
I don't try to be right, I just try to make people think
i hear China is looking rather free thesedays
The MIT student paper claiming CAPPS will reduce security assumes that random security checks will decrease. This is a major assumption, and I personally doubt whether this assumption is valid. Further, I believe that this program is a good idea.
Jesus it used to be we had the ILLUSION this was a free country(even though it wasn't). Now there is NO illusion.
George Bush and his cronies are imperialist corporatist FASCIST BASTARDS. I'm sure their monied friends will get through any checks just fine (o for got, they all have their own jets).
BUSH CRAWL BACK TO THE PLACE OF LAVA AND SCREAMING YOU CAME FROM..NAMELY HELL YOU FUCKING DEMON
So that means, that in the future, all a terrorist need do to get onto his plane unhindered, is to get his rating switched to green, or successfully impersonate someone who is?
Sounds LESS SAFE to me.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
2004: "Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Islamic religion, or any other organization with the stated intent of disagreement with the official Christian religion of the United States?"
executions are scheduled for this year, or maybe next
As a bonus, it keeps away vampires too....
Right, buddy...
its called Guantanamo Bay, and they are Muslims this time, no ovens just needles
Sorry; this link was supposed to go under my comment "They Certainly are" -- evidence that journalists are being harrassed by the US military currently. That's what I get for not hitting preview.
Seriously, I expect the lawyers at the ACLU are already preparing their case.
:)
Aren't they behind razor wire yet??
-kgj
-kgj
Con:
Admiral Poindexter - Stunning indictment of the system that they would put someone like him in charge of something like this.
Israel - Is a lot smaller that the U.S. and we have seen that things don't necessarily scale. What works for them and a small volume is not necessarily going to work for the U.S. due to the volume of travellers.
Freedom - With no privacy you have no freedom.
Pro:
System - Israel's system is reactive, though there is time to remove the passenger before take off.
Security - Something has to be done, Americans will have to give up curbside check in. Life or convinience?
Freedom - The U.S. is nominally a place where you are innocent until proven guilty. The Israeli system makes you guilty until proven innocent.
We should, and the ACLU and others would reject a system that presumes you are guilty. We are not El Al, though there is much to learn from that system that we could apply.
Something has to be done, though knee-jerk responses (sadly, the norm here) are not the answer. Even the MIT paper admits that some form of CAPPS could work. A couple of issues:
- Unlike Open Source Software, the system should have closed criteria.
- With a closed criteria needs be a truly responsive and accountable means for redress when the system marks you incorrectly.
- The system must be dynamic. As terrorists change their tactics, so should the system. Unfortunately, funding for maintaining the systems will eventually be cut too far and the previous instances of governmental systems implementation (FAA system) have been dismal at best.
- Maybe a predictive system to provide some help in identifying possible suspects with some random picks included. The best (or worst) of both systems adds the possibility of the random search that provides some security against the algorythmic counter strategies. Once they enter the system, a system more like the El Al system could take over.
- Convenience will have to suffer so that freedom doesn't.
- Let me reiterate. Without privacy, you have no freedom. Let us not sacrifice our freedoms for a security that does not exist. There is no guarantee of security no matter how much freedom you cede. I'll err on the side of freedoms.
- As the MIT paper points out, nothing can truly replace the trained, professional and experienced person on the ground seeing what programming will miss or cannot address. However, this person won't be working for minimum wage.
The fact that we have not found a working system does not mean that we won't. It's an iterative process that we will get wrong a lot more than we will get right. The point is not to sacrifice what we are protecting during the process.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
Everyone is now in such a state about when they are next going to be hijacked and will they be on that plane or will it hit someone they know. Most of this panic seems to be restricted to America and watching CNN etc i can see why. All that is reported all day long is what terror alert level the country is on, and after 10 minutes watching it starts to make me look around suspiciously too. I was comming home from my holiday last friday (Egypt>Rome>London:) and at the end of our flight a couple of armed police casualy escorted 2 arab/egyptian looking men off the plane. they were then let go in the terminal as we walked passed after their documents had been checked but i couldnt help thinking that it had been a totally random search or a sugestion by a computer. Then when i got my connection my luggage didnt follow. Apparently everyones luggage was held for "security reasons" although im not exactly sure, it came 2 days later. I also couldnt help thinking that this was a totally un-needed precautionary "just in case" security reason. Well they shouldnt have bothered, my mum forgot to take her nail scissors out of her hand luggage, they didnt spot that. Security is just becoming jumpy and lax at the same time and its just pissing people off. Good security involves stopping people from doing dangerous things, not randomly targetting people because 10 characters of their name match a terrorist.
oh btw no-one checks bottled drinking water, could you not fill that with acid or petrol?
oh fuck looks like im gonna be on the blacklist now
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
As an American I can safely say that is fine with me. There are plenty of people here already so you can consider your position accepted and reciprocated in full. Have a nice day!
Nothing new here, the police Already use a color coded system!
It was funny watching Enemy of the State on ABC last night. When I first saw it, years ago, it seemed much more based on fiction than it does now. At first, it seemed to be a little paranoid to me, and I didn't actually believe that our government would start passing things like that Patriot Act. Everything in the movie seems so familiar now, almost like they based it on current events.
from slashdot. personally I am excited about the possibilities. Freedom AND safety through technology.
And if the gummimint was really intent on messing up the A-rabs, it would be force-feedin' it to the "detainees" at Gitmo.
Smoke & mirrors by any other name would still be smoke & mirrors. Four more years of smoke & mirrors...
"Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray" (Bob Dylan)
Slashdot also uses some kind of it, it don't give you karma bonus if you're a troll :-)
People will not be protected under this rediculous plan as it would appear this is nothing more than big brother being allowed to aggregate data on U.S. citizens and profile us.
Nowhere is it mentioned and nor is it possible that the 55 Million foreign visitors that enter the U.S. every year will be able to have a similar amount of data regarding their potential threat assesment be calculated as the U.S. Government doesn't have access to credit and criminal data about any of the 310 Million Europeans or the 1.2 Billion Chinese or any other nation.
So it would appear this measure is only intended to know who is traveling within the U.S. and how to make it more difficult for deadwood Americans to be pestered away from using valuable resources better used by others.
Oh, and give her a pair of goggles, because as you can see I'm equipped to poke her eye out.
anti war activist and Bush opponents.
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Seriously. Arguments of effectiveness aside the morality of it is beyond reproch. But what about the people who are singled out!? Boo hoo!
Wow. Inconvienence is truly an awful thing to visit on people. It's refreshing to think that there is no such thing at airports now. It's so much better when it's visited upon people at random. I'd hate to think that anyones troubles had at least some basis in reason. Good thinking, we should be spreading it around to cyborgs, grandmas, and dumb kids leaving 'My clothes are not a bomb, ass!' notes in checked bags.
Being a violent felon isn't enough to get you red flagged. They are not taking DNA, and uploading the files to black helicopters so Roy Scheider can watch you aerobicize.
When reasonable people are prevented from making reasonable inferences based on what amounts to PUBLIC INFORMATION because it might hurt someones feelings, and cost them a few hours you're demanding that the many trust the few with their lives, and preventing the many from having any say in that.
You know what. The many will walk. The safety problem will be solved. One way or another. If you want air travel to go back to be a luxury as opposed to a commodity, keep on.
And not to be ghoulish, but if those people who died on those airplanes in 9/11 had the chance do you think they might trade a little bit of what can't even be called liberty for another chance at avoiding a horribly violent death?
" Thank god for DVD players in cars now... That will make those 3 day trips cross country with the family much quieter."
;-)
Along the way you can tell the little 'uns about how once there were companies called 'airlines' that flew great silver birds across the sky.
Don't ferget to pack the banjo.
I personally find it interesting how such vast wodges of resources are being allocated to the cause of increased security for commercial airliners, when there is another venue of attack of equally devastating potential. Any terrorist who is not an idiot would be wary of attempting to hijack a passenger-carrying airliner, for two very compelling reasons: 1) vastly increased security, and 2) drastically altered passenger psychology. Setting aside for a moment the multifarious (and often legitimate) debates concerning the effectiveness of many of these new security measures, it cannot be denied that scrutiny, at least, has increased dramatically. The other, equally important factor is the passengers; as mentioned previously herein by other esteemed /.ers, nobody is going to allow a plane to be hijacked without resistance. Indeed, we've seen already that it works; the fourth jet hijacked on 9/11 never found its target because the passengers decided to resist; it was a heroic move that cost them their lives but saved probably hundreds (and maybe thousands) more. I think the only reason any terrorist would ever try this method again is for the not-insignificant fear factor; as mentioned before in this discussion, it would be most embarrassing and frightening to have another incident of similar nature occur despite all efforts to the contrary.
The other method, to which I alluded previously, is, I think, oft overlooked. It is a simple fact that airplanes used for the transit solely of cargo are almost entirely unprotected. Nothing more than a chain-link fence stands between any ill-intentioned person and a very large, fully-fueled airplane. These planes have small crews, and to my knowledge, no effort has been made in the last two years to increase their security; no reinforced cabin doors, no additional security personnel, not even a taller fence! I have surveyed the condition of cargo planes at a major international airport, and have verified this personally. A capable and careful person would have little trouble compromising the security of one of these installations. Granted, there are difficulties involved with this approach not associated with a commercial airliner: for one, there is not a large flux of people to and from these planes, so any such activity would be immediately suspect if detected. However, I believe this is a serious threat, and should be addressed. I'm all for well-placed, well-intended, and above all, well-executed programs for increasing security; but the best screen door in the world won't keep the flies out if you leave the back window open.
Perhaps we won't see any improvements in this area until something happens to impel serious change. It seems to underscore the reactionary nature of what I will collectively refer to as our "security policy". Until something happens, nobody seems to care (that is to say, not enough people pay attention). Once something does occur, it is quickly met with panic, fear, and disorganization; blind fear is a terrible impetus for anything, and I do not think our current administration is above using such fear for their own political gain...
So will this system automagically flag tourists a threat ?
...
After all it's probably not going to be able to do that much of a background check on "Joe Bloggs" from the Isle of Skye
The US seems to be getting quite scary and creepy lately, almost like the way the Nazi influence crept slowly across Germany not that long ago.
Mark
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Moved from Southern California to Vancouver, B.C. last month. It's hard to put your finger on why, but it feels good enough to compensate for the lousy winter weather. Canada is not perfect by any means, but at least now I don't pay taxes to Bush or Arnold, neither of whom represented my friends and neighbors in any way, and my home country's army hasn't killed many people today. Right now, I feel more free. I hope it lasts.
This whole mess is pathetic. All of these Orange/red/blah blah terror alerts/terrorist counter measures just place the American public in a false sense of security. If they really wanted to they could hi-jack the plane, regardless of the security measures put in place. (Although, it would make it a bit harder for them).
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
During 'code orange', the center I worked out stopped me _every time_ I entered, because I had a non-picture ("temporary") badge. Despite that said badge requires an accompanying photo id and just getting the 'temp' badge took all the paperwork and processing that goes into the photo ones, and is valid for 3 months at a time.
I became very familiar with the search procedure. I knew exactly when and how the search went. Being searched twice a day for 2 weeks will do that for you.
An _effective_ search strategy would have been, oh, give the guards new instructions daily like 'today, search all green cars' or 'today, check all plates beginning with '1'".
Those ('true randoms', i.e. avoiding selection bias by guards and avoiding profiling holes), a no-goodnik wouldn't be able to predict, and yet it also wouldn't hit any one person frequently that they'd be intimately familiar with (and thus able to easily circumvent) the security protocols.
So yeah, CAPS II is worse than being 'a hassle', it's a hassle that provides _worse_ security than you get without it.
A.
Maybe we should get a color code tattoo indicating out terror threat level. Sheesh.
This signature is typed manually.
-- It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
I don't know, maybe this should bother me more, but it doesn't. Imagine yourself in the leadership position of having to manage all these different avenues of terrorist interest as well as deal with PR, special interest groups, economical concerns, and the public's need to be transported around the world. Sadly, as with most terrorist contermeasures, the great majority of people suffer through obnoxious security mesaures just because of the off-chance that a terrorist would try something crazy that day. I believe that the more options we have to safely shift this balance away from public annoyance while maintaining safety, the better.
The airlines have it doubly bad, in that they were originally designed to piss off the masses even before security was an issue (think first class, those highly un-useful people behind the counter (for "the steerage in back" only), the quality of the food, and the size of the seat).
The airline industry is merely one of many options that terrorists have to choose from. If security fails on an airplane, the consequences are wide-scale. To me, this "color coding system" looks like another attempt (of many and more to come) to perfect the balance between terrorists easily crashing planes and "the other concerns" (PR, economics, usefulness of airline system)
For the moment, this may be the lowest impact option that retains a certain level of security. But understand that there are a lot of other variables to the equation.
Allowing the airline to submit my name to a gov't entity every time I fly is a lot easier than suffering through a huge line of people taking off their shoes and pulling tweezers from their purses. Why would I care that the government knows that I am flying from LAX to BOS on 1/15/04 on flight 25? Why would they care? Do you think that the goverment, in all it's conspiring, is going to do something about it? I have nothing to hide. Besides, if I really needed to fly and hide something, I could just charter a jet or go rent a C-172 and fly myself.
So, in short, I'm not seeing what the problem here is. This sounds like a good deal to me.
Remember that whole thing over the holidays where we were stopping various flights from entering the US? Remember how the authorities found no evidence of anything remotely suspicious? Remember the country being in code orange through this whole ordeal?
Scare the people and they'll hand you their freedoms wrapped in a big red bow...
They'll have plenty to chose from. Courtesy of the Flight "Mashallerry" and a few non-acountable lawstealers.
:
As for the rest
Sentence 1 is false. Everything is always possible.
Sentence 2 presumes that all the killer-crazies and their masters, and their master's masters (ad infi-) accept this little meme and think in unquestioning synch. Doesn't sound like the powermad folk I knew ( ranging from petty "authorities" of all sorts, public or private, "upward and onward" ).
Sentence 3 is really hilarious.
tsk tsk
Too bad they already set up advanced bases there. Or haven't you herd ?
Oh, and US passengers entering Brazil are forced to have their mugshots and fingerprint taken, in "reciprocity", by the obliging Brazilian authorities. So, there goes another obvious choice.
Of course, you could go to Florida, rent a boat and....
I have a great idea. We could create a visual way to track the bad guys. We could take all the suspected terrorists, file traders, linux users (is there any difference?), and make them sew a symbol on all of their clothing. Perhaps a star? This way we can notice them immediatel! If we want to be even more secure, we could even have them all live in the same city block. We'll call this the "gheto" for the sake of a better word. Then, we will have all of the unamerican Mac users enforce this rule of law for the good guys in the government. They don't get payment, just the pride that they are helping. Write your loacal representative if you support this idea.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The story is a dupe, the topic is boring, the facts weren't checked. WE GET IT!!
I AM Carnildo next door neighbor
One more very important question : "How much support did Schicklegruber have in the US, and international society in general? What did the "non-left" middle-class upward say about him ? How did they say it ? What did the communists say about him, before, and after, he invaded the USSR? How did they say it ?
Oh, and, just in case it is even minimally important, Gypsies, Freemasons, Homosexuals, "Leftists"... (and whom else?) were rounded up with almost equal abandon. All it took was a word, a hint, a snitch, and....
Heydrich's color-coded files included pink, red,
Oh, by the way, IHLIAD (I Have Lived In a Dictatorship). Grew up in one, actually. My advice, try not to let things get that far. Not that anyone seems to listen. But. My advice, just the same.
I've had it with the airline industry and their rather poor attempt at feel-good security (which isn't security at all).
Surely (almost) all of these things are done by government, not the airlines? The airlines are left to implement them, since they're forced to by law, but that doesn't mean they're to blame.
if I'm tagged as "red" and refused entry onto a plane?
I really don't have the option of driving. But I can see how something like this could create some very bad publicity for the airlines.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
-38 and dropping, eh? Mighty cold here tonight eh?
May have to go find my coat, eh? This sweater just don't work when it gets chilly like this eh?
It's even colder outside eh?
Need Mercedes parts ?
The Third Reich utilized a myriad of colored triangles to classify the various groups of peoples they interned in concentration camps. (2) The colors of the triangles were as follows: red for political dissidents, green for criminals, purple for Jehovah's Witnesses, blue for emigrants, brown for Gypsies, black for lesbians and other "anti-socials," and pink for homosexual men. The pink triangles symbolized the femaleness of this group of detainees whose masculinity was diminished within the context of Nazi heterosexism. Additionally, the pink triangles were generally larger than other triangles because the Nazis wished gay men to be especially visible (Rector, 1981). Jews, by contrast, were marked by six-pointed, yellow Stars of David within which the word "Jew" was inscribed.(3)
Just do the search.
A local newscast revealed that the fed now has a secret "no fly" list. What's it based on? Well, it's quite obviously the most fool-proof, and the most effective technique available. Quite simply, if your happens to be even SIMILAR to that of someone they've added to the secret "no fly" list, guess what...you don't fly. That is, until you go through a lot red tape (with Bush's name all over it), and obtain special permission, as a U.S. citizen, to board an airplane.
Sometimes I wonder if they've hired the Disney company to choreograph this ongoing circus.
Further, there's no mention in the paper that a neural network will evolve as long as new data is fed to it, but it will. If the paper's implication is that ethnicity will weigh heavily in the neural network's calculations, I'd speculate that such a correlation would be only a first-order correlation which would eventually be a casualty of the relentless ability to ferret out non-obvious relationships that neural networks are good at.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that I like or want the CAPS system. Nor am I arguing the opposite. But while I think the MIT paper starts out decently with a bit of statistics and a light discussion of neural networks, it then tries to make a statistically significant model out of five individuals. It ends up feeling like the authors had a result in mind and worked backwards from it instead of being diligently thorough at every stage of the discussion.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
I've been bitching at my Congress critters for almost 2 years now about this.
Here's my prediction from 2/1/2002.
Opinion: Scientology is a cult you should avoid. Follow the
To be clear, it's not that there wasn't a real threat to the US in the 50s, just that we went too far in our countermeasures.
DNA just wants to be free...
passengers that i feel sorry for; it is the US Govt - being overly paranoid, ,living under constant stress (i shall refrain from saying "fear"), spending millions of $ on security, new procedures, and measures like this database. The more they embaress, prod and trouble people of different cultures, more the ill-will and resentment will be generated. People will NOT sympathise with their worries anymore (which people do as of now).
I can understand the governmen's concerns and responsibilties, but they'll have to be careful and make sure that they do NOT overdo such processes.
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
I live in Japan, but was born in the US, lived there through university, and (obviously) have large numbers of family there. Yet it still took a good deal of serious thought before I was able to convince myself to visit "home" for the holidays this past Christmas--the first time I've been to the US since 9/11. And while it was certainly nice to see family and friends again, with all the stupid searches and security measures, it very nearly wasn't worth it. I want to go back occasionally, but I don't want to deal with all this crap . . .
Sigh.
Passenger Risk Database to be Implemented in U.S.
And Verisign is going to administer it...
Scary..
Also, today's Dilbert got a good one on this: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/imag es/dilbert20024398640114.gif
Speaking as a pilot, your idea of locking the cockpit door at the beginning of the flight with crew inside is preposterous.
Sure, it may work for a quick city hopper flight of an hour or less. But anything more, and you'd have pilots going to the toilet IN the cockpit. They'd get no meals. No fluids that they didn't stash in there with them.
In short, at some point in most flights, the cockpit door will need to be opened for something.
About the ONLY real security measure you have on an aircraft post-9/11 is the passengers on that aircraft, who if they see a hijack about to start, should rush the hijackers and detain them (or worse - I wouldn't lose any sleep over the "accidental death" of a would be hijacker).
All this business about fingerprinting citizens entering the US, CAPPS, TIA, colour-coded threat levels etc - all of it is useless and simply a way to slowly strip away your rights, frog in boiling water style.
How can I say this, you ask? Because when they fingerprint THE PILOTS who have just arrived from overseas to determine they aren't a threat, it's TOO LATE. If they WERE a threat, they'd have complete control over the aircraft from the first engine start back in their starting country and ALREADY have carried out their attack!
It's all an illusion people. You are no safer now than you ever were, I assure you. Pilots know it - I can only hope the wider community ends up realising it.
Visceral Psyche Films
if your gonna take away my rights, at least let me live my life in a sex filled drug induced haze.
Like polies running law 'n order auctions every election year.
The US just wants to export it's fear based culture to the rest of the world.
Fact is the likelyhood of being a victim of terrorism post 9-11 is just infinitesimal as it was pre 9-11. You work it out, starting from the fact there's over 6 billion bloody people in the world.
I've read through the comments and I see that most folk (including myself) concentrate on bashing the proposed system, calling it Orwellian, proving that it won't increase security etc. But maybe it's a waste of mental powers - maybe Slashdot folk should try to use their brains to tackle the problem government has to face: how to prevent events like 9/11 from happening again? How to prevent terrorists from entering planes? How to prevent terrorists from smuggling dirty bombs into the country? How to prevent them from poisoning water supplies? The list goes on.
This isn't easy. CAPPS II isn't the right answer. What could be it?
"Speaking as a pilot, your idea"
;)
If there's going to be criticism, I'd rather it at least come from someone with the knowledge to critique practical aspects, rather than arguing just for the sake of argument.
"Sure, it may work for a quick city hopper flight of an hour or less. But anything more, and you'd have pilots going to the toilet IN the cockpit. They'd get no meals. No fluids that they didn't stash in there with them."
Alright, then let me toss my original idea past you. In labs where extremely infectious agents are studied (such as the CDC labs), there are a set of two doors one must walk through to go from the outside to the inside of the lab housing the agents. Both doors cannot be opened at once, and the inside between the two doors is well monitored. I was thinking of adapting that idea for use on existing planes. It would require some reconfiguration of some parts towards the front, but the balance between security and operability is good.
Basically, the idea is to have two doors between the cockpit and the passenger cabin. Both doors cannot be opened at the same time. There are cameras mounted between the two doors (at least two cameras), with small monitors mounted within the cockpit. Only the cockpit can control the two doors. Right outside the cockpit, there are also a few cameras covering the angles near the outside door. When one of you needs to exit the cockpit for whatever reason, you check the monitors to make sure no one is in the area between the two security doors. You then open the first door, and step inside. One of the other pilots then monitors the outter door's cameras while the first door closes. Assuming all appears well, the outside door is opened and you're free to roam about as you please. Any potential hijackers would have to convince you to open each security door one at a time to let them into the cockpit. Obviously, you're not going to do that because you understand that there is now far more at stake than the lives aboard your airplane. As a secondary precaution, I would suggest that pressing the "hijack" button, or alert button, or whatever it's called that alerts the ground to a serious security issue on board would seal both doors until the plane lands and something is done by a mechanic to reopen them. This allows you to move about the plane freely without fear of giving potential hijackers an opportunity to do something to your airplane.
"About the ONLY real security measure you have on an aircraft post-9/11 is the passengers on that aircraft, who if they see a hijack about to start, should rush the hijackers and detain them (or worse - I wouldn't lose any sleep over the "accidental death" of a would be hijacker)."
I agree completely that passengers should help the flight crew to subdue anyone who appears to be a threat. I also believe that having a couple of air marshals on board, especially with one or more in plain clothes, further increases the chances for success in securing the airplane. Basically, for hijackers to even gain control of the cabin (setting aside their lack of ability to enter the cockpit as per my last security measure), they would have to take out at least two well-trained individuals and a plane filled with untrained, but highly motivated people.
"All this business about fingerprinting citizens entering the US, CAPPS, TIA, colour-coded threat levels etc - all of it is useless and simply a way to slowly strip away your rights, frog in boiling water style."
I am in full agreement with you that all this technology provides security only to those in power who seek to control every person in this country; citizen or not.
By the way, how do you feel about the whole 'guns in the cockpit' debate? Personally, I think having a firearm discharge in the cockpit is probably one of the most dangerous things that can happen on a plane. I don't know the ins and outs of the equipment on board, but if they're claiming my cell phone can cause pro
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Seriously, the threat given from people like the grandparent is more significant to me than that of arab terrorists. Cults, KKK members, all that sort of thing are just as much a danger if not more (as advertised by parent). Even being white, I'd be much more worried that some nutcase supremacist is going to take me out in a crossfire while trying to cleanse some evil [insert non-caucasian race here] threat.
I won't post a really long thread; suffice to say that my personal view is that guns on board an aircraft are a BAD idea.
I mean, you go to all this trouble to keep guns off the aircraft, then negate it all by allowing the "good guys" to come on board with them! Believe it or not I'm not THAT concerned with a bullet disrupting something vital (other than me of course!) to the airworthiness of the aircraft. I'd imagine the sky marshals would be using Glaser safety rounds in their weapons (frangible ammunition that is designed to break up instead of going through an aircraft hull) and explosive decompression isn't quite as severe as people imagine it to be.
Also, the front windscreens on aircraft are remarkably thick since they need to prevent a high speed bird strike from penetrating into the cockpit! Don't know how they'd fare with a bullet in them, but if it gets that far you've got bigger problems I'd say (like the soft, fleshy pilots between the door and the windscreen)!
Consider the worst case scenario - multiple terrorists WITH guns. Even in that scenario, they can STILL be mobbed, and given that the alternative would be death for all the passengers anyway, they don't have much to lose anymore by trying.
Finally, consider what happens if the terrorists decide to play fakes and have some (but not all) terrorists take over the aircraft, drawing out the sky marshals. Sure, the situation's no doubt been thought of by sky marshals, but it's not an exact science. Then consider terrorists dressing as sky marshals, using fake ID etc. Who is the real sky marshal? As you can see, it's far simpler to just keep them off aircraft in the first place.
That's my personal view anyway.
Visceral Psyche Films
I'd love to install Debian on an Inspiron 8000, and tar it to CD for quick repartition/installation. Then I could mail a copy of the CD to my destination, or start the upload before I leave. When I arrived I could have a clone of my setup. But I haven't even seen a complete HowTo for Debian on I8K that includes all the HW, like IEEE1394, CD-R/DVD, media buttons, S-Video-out, etc. So I might have to schlep it for the time being.
--
make install -not war
The idea is sound in principle, but the practicalities leave something to be desired.
Whilst new aircraft such as the A380, or the Boeing 7E7 could be designed to incorporate such double doors, retrofitting older aircraft is not easy as they have pretty tight layouts down front.
I think having a camera or two would be pretty trivial to do, and would certainly enhance security when opening the door, or perhaps even having a curtain drawn across the area so that a terrorist waiting for the door to open wouldn't see it happen.
You could even put cameras throughout the aircraft so the pilots can see what's happening everywhere, plus you could also perhaps hook those to an external feed so the pilots could downlink it if necessary to ground personnel. It could also be linked to the flight data recorder (or have its own 30min loop recorder) so if there was a crash it would give you the last 30min of what happened as audio and video security tape (or digital which is more likely).
Visceral Psyche Films