"Typical answer, now explain to me how the newbie is suppose to use this if it isn't in the distro or in the documentation for the distro?"
Then upgrade the distro. Don't you get it? They are actively trying to fix things. And when it's fixed, people still complain about it. What else do you expect? Do you want them to hack in your computer and upgrade it for you?
Once it's finished, distros will start including XFree86 4.3 and all the software that supports XRandR. A newbie buys/downloads the latest distro and automatically get XRandR-enabled software. There, problem solved. What more do you want?
"but it doesn't help the newbie who buys a distro today."
Well duh. This is in no way related to Linux: it is a fact of life. Today we have airplanes but that doesn't help the people from 300 years ago does it? What exactly are you complaining about? That you can't bring stuff from the future to the present?
Simple: you bring it to whomever setted it up for you. It may be your geek cousin, or your local computer shop that happens to be selling computers with Linux preloaded. Of course, you can always call your distributor. After all, support is their main source of revenue. If you have paid for your distro, then they will help you (you *do* pay for your distro, right? right?:p) It's funny how people always forget the distributor as a source of support.
And as a last resort, you can always get help from the online community. People who say that they always get "RTFM" are just looking at the wrong places. Online forums like the Dutch ComputerTotaal Linux forum or NedLinux.nl, or IRC channels like #linuxhelp@freenode are always very friendly and helpful. On the other hand, #linux@dalnet is full of elists. Some places are friendly while other places are hostile; the Windows community is no different.
Most people I know would rather download the crack than buying Windows XP in the store. And downloading a crack really isn't that difficult. It's quite easy actually.
"This is the core problem with linux, and why the consumer wont use it until fixed. My parents and friends have problems running windows XP...do you think they could handle some of the even semi complex tasks of running a linux box? Highly doubtful at best."
These "problems" cannot be "fixed". Windows and Linux are general-purpose operating systems. It is impossible to make them easy for every single person out there without at least some education.
Tadaaa, that's where preinstallation and preconfiguration jumps in! Complex tasks? What complex tasks? I setup a Linux box for my parents to surf the web. All they have to know is how to press the On/Off button, how to doubleclick on the icon of their account and how to use the browser. That's it, no compiling, no editing configuration files: it just works.
The solution is not to make (semi) complex things easy, but to preinstall & configure the system to their needs so they don't have to do (simi) complex tasks in the first place. Repeat the magic words: preinstallation and preconfiguration.
"But I suspect some additional technical features/api's in X would be necessary in order to achieve the seemless resolution changing ala. Mac or Windows."
I guess you've never heard of XRandR. It allows on-the-fly resolution changing and screen rotation. The extension will be included in XFree86 4.3. Both KDE and GNOME are working on support for XRandR.
I disagree. Many people argue that Linux's TCO is about the same as Windows, because Linux experts are more expensive. There have also been many studies that point that out. Lots of Slashdotters also yell how they don't care about the price. This means cost has got nothing to do with it. People choose Linux because of it's merits.
I don't see these distros succeeding until they either sell them for VERY little money[1] or for free. Because let's face it: most "consumers" are cheapskates[2]. How many people do you know copy illegl versions of Windows XP? Or download illegal MP3s? Copying CDs anyone? The pirate market is HUGE.
Sure, you can argue that not everybody does that. But the point is, the *majority* are cheapskates.
[1] Selling for little money or for free introduces other problems. Like "It's cheap/free, so it must suck"-prejudgements.
[2] About the "Linux users are cheapskates"-stereotype: that's not true. *Consumers* are cheapskates.
What does The Matrix have to do with anime? As far as I know, The Matrix is an American movie. Have they hired a Japanese studio to make the animation? Or is it just an American studio trying to mimic the Japanese styles?
(I haven't watched the videos yet, I'm downloading them right now.)
librsvg is faster *under certain circumstances*. Yes, if you create 2 milion vectors then it will be much slower. But most icons aren't made of 2 milion vectors, that's why they're faster.
"Oh, wait.. No. Organizing your windows on your desktop is not something that anyone who wants to use the computer as a tool cares about."
So? 1) You claimed that Metacity is like Windows 1. The existence of these features proof you wrong. 2) That not everbody cares about these features are irrelevant. See 1. 3) These features are still VERY useful. Not only to me, but also to lots of people I know. They may not be useful to everyone, but they are for many people. Not everybody needs popup blocking either but that doesn't mean Mozilla shouldn't have that feature!
"They care about something they turn on, do work with, and turn off."
Which is what Metacity exactly is. You start it, it works. Great default settings. No configuration required to make it usable for average users. The people who complain about the lack of viewport support are NOT average users. Their complaints do not apply to average users.
"They don't want to think about organizing files, changing configs, dealing with dependancies, etc, etc, etc."
As I will say *yet again*, Metacity works out-of-the-box without ANY configuration!
"Which was my point: if you require a few hundred lines of lisp to get some desired behaviour from a system, the system is broken."
You're wrong. This issue is about *viewports*, some Windows doesn't have, and probably never will. We all agree that Windows is usable for average users, don't we? Therebefore we can conclude that average users don't need viewports, or don't know that such thing exists.
You *only* have to edit lisp code if you want viewports. If you want viewports, then you are *not* an average user. Thus, this whole issue about editing config files do not apply to average users at all. Out-of-the-box, Metacity works very similar to Windows, which means *usable for average users*.
Your complaint is like complaining that you have to dive into the Windows registery and edit tens of keys just to have a Open In DOS extension menu for every folder. Sure, editing the registry is far from easy, but if you want that Open In DOS menu then *you are not an average user*.
"I will never, ever be able to use Linux for my grandmother, or if I'm in a hurry."
Your grandmother doesn't even know what viewports are, so this doesn't apply to her.
"Metacity now is where Windows 1.0 was in terms of usability. Thanks, but no thanks."
Can Windows 1.0, heck, even Windows XP, do: - Workspaces - Window (un)rolling - Magnetic window movement All out-of-the-box? I don't think so. Especially the first and the latter are THE reasons why Metacity (and many other Linux WMs) are much and much more usable than any version Windows. The window border in Windows is just that - a window border. No features like in Linux WMs that allows you to organize your windows easier.
100 MB on today's 60 GB harddisks! Wow, what a bloat!
Re:This makes me want to help GNOME
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 1
There is no battle. Why fight in a battle that doesn't even exist? Face it: GNOME and KDE will both continue to exist, just like WindowMaker and Enlightenment and BlackBox will. GNOME isn't heading the same direction as KDE, they are not, and cannot, be fighting.
"There is no American vs. Serbia war either but it doesn't mean people aren't dieing from DU because of the remnants of the war"
More reason to kill off the remnants in order to prevent even more people getting killed.
"1) RedHat just recently striped a tremendous amount out of KDE killing it as a desktop alternative."
In other news: RedHat forked GNOME and replaced it's icons and menus, therebefore killing GNOME as a desktop alternative.
In yet other news: people who were complaining about how Linux will never succeed on the desktop until both desktops look alike are now massively attacking RedHat.
"2) Sun's corporate desktop options are Gnome & CDE. Doesn't KDE make a lot more sense as an upgrade to CDE?"
What's your point? One of the reasons they chose GNOME was that they were more familiar with C. They made a choice, period. So what if RedHat and Sun chose GNOME as default? Mandrake/SuSE/Caldera/Xandros/Lycoris/InsertOtherD istributionsHere chose KDE as default.
That KDE is better is your opinion. Others may disagree. Why force them to use KDE? If they want KDE they'll install it themselves. KDE still has more market share. You have nothing to complain about.
"The idea that you would have a battle as bloody as that and then everybody just forgets about is out of the question. Gnome was born from a truly hateful campain against KDE. Since then its has created some great software, but everything is not over."
No, it's just not over in the minds of a small minority like you. You still hold a grudge for whatever reason. Give it up, it's over. Guess what? The rest of the world doesn't give a damn about your stupid little holy war! Even the GNOME and KDE developers themselve agree with this.
Re:The end of GNOME.
on
KDE 3.1 Released
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
In other news: the release of KDE 3.2 means the end of Enlightenment, WindowMaker and Blackbox.
Get real. There is no GNOME vs KDE war. KDE cannot kill GNOME, nor can GNOME kill KDE. They will both continue to exist.
Slashdot Mirror
"Typical answer, now explain to me how the newbie is suppose to use this if it isn't in the distro or in the documentation for the distro?"
Then upgrade the distro.
Don't you get it? They are actively trying to fix things. And when it's fixed, people still complain about it. What else do you expect? Do you want them to hack in your computer and upgrade it for you?
Once it's finished, distros will start including XFree86 4.3 and all the software that supports XRandR. A newbie buys/downloads the latest distro and automatically get XRandR-enabled software. There, problem solved. What more do you want?
"but it doesn't help the newbie who buys a distro today."
Well duh. This is in no way related to Linux: it is a fact of life. Today we have airplanes but that doesn't help the people from 300 years ago does it?
What exactly are you complaining about? That you can't bring stuff from the future to the present?
Simple: you bring it to whomever setted it up for you. It may be your geek cousin, or your local computer shop that happens to be selling computers with Linux preloaded. :p)
Of course, you can always call your distributor. After all, support is their main source of revenue. If you have paid for your distro, then they will help you (you *do* pay for your distro, right? right?
It's funny how people always forget the distributor as a source of support.
And as a last resort, you can always get help from the online community.
People who say that they always get "RTFM" are just looking at the wrong places.
Online forums like the Dutch ComputerTotaal Linux forum or NedLinux.nl, or IRC channels like #linuxhelp@freenode are always very friendly and helpful.
On the other hand, #linux@dalnet is full of elists. Some places are friendly while other places are hostile; the Windows community is no different.
So? The Apple II had antialiasing in the 80s. Should we now all flame Windows XP just because Apple had it years before Windows did?
"I assume the people you know are at least semi-tech savvy people."
They are just 15-16 year old kids.
Here are two:, 6,1,12 09,02.html2 0147.html
l
http://www.gamegrabber.com/articles/daily/8
http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/
And if you can read Dutch:
http://www.webwereld.nl/nieuws/13576.phtm
http://www.webwereld.nl/nieuws/13388.phtml
50% thinks: "It's cheaper so I'll buy it."
Another 50% thinks: "It's cheap so it must suck."
Price is a double-edged sword.
Most people I know would rather download the crack than buying Windows XP in the store.
And downloading a crack really isn't that difficult. It's quite easy actually.
"This is the core problem with linux, and why the consumer wont use it until fixed. My parents and friends have problems running windows XP...do you think they could handle some of the even semi complex tasks of running a linux box? Highly doubtful at best."
These "problems" cannot be "fixed". Windows and Linux are general-purpose operating systems. It is impossible to make them easy for every single person out there without at least some education.
Tadaaa, that's where preinstallation and preconfiguration jumps in!
Complex tasks? What complex tasks? I setup a Linux box for my parents to surf the web. All they have to know is how to press the On/Off button, how to doubleclick on the icon of their account and how to use the browser.
That's it, no compiling, no editing configuration files: it just works.
The solution is not to make (semi) complex things easy, but to preinstall & configure the system to their needs so they don't have to do (simi) complex tasks in the first place.
Repeat the magic words: preinstallation and preconfiguration.
Then what are all those tons of "studies" lately that conclude that Linux TCO is just as high or higher than Windows?
"But I suspect some additional technical features/api's in X would be necessary in order to achieve the seemless resolution changing ala. Mac or Windows."
I guess you've never heard of XRandR. It allows on-the-fly resolution changing and screen rotation. The extension will be included in XFree86 4.3. Both KDE and GNOME are working on support for XRandR.
I disagree. Many people argue that Linux's TCO is about the same as Windows, because Linux experts are more expensive. There have also been many studies that point that out. Lots of Slashdotters also yell how they don't care about the price.
This means cost has got nothing to do with it. People choose Linux because of it's merits.
I don't see these distros succeeding until they either sell them for VERY little money[1] or for free. Because let's face it: most "consumers" are cheapskates[2]. How many people do you know copy illegl versions of Windows XP? Or download illegal MP3s? Copying CDs anyone? The pirate market is HUGE.
Sure, you can argue that not everybody does that. But the point is, the *majority* are cheapskates.
[1] Selling for little money or for free introduces other problems. Like "It's cheap/free, so it must suck"-prejudgements.
[2] About the "Linux users are cheapskates"-stereotype: that's not true. *Consumers* are cheapskates.
"It's much easier to mod me down than to post an intelligent reply."
It is much easier to mod you down than for intelligent replies to be modded up.
What does The Matrix have to do with anime? As far as I know, The Matrix is an American movie. Have they hired a Japanese studio to make the animation? Or is it just an American studio trying to mimic the Japanese styles?
(I haven't watched the videos yet, I'm downloading them right now.)
"but I mean something more higher level - like DirectSound"
SDL?
There are no 8 different versions of that library.
librsvg is faster *under certain circumstances*. Yes, if you create 2 milion vectors then it will be much slower. But most icons aren't made of 2 milion vectors, that's why they're faster.
And why should you care? You are a user, not a developer. You shouldn't even have to know that it exists.
"Oh, wait.. No. Organizing your windows on your desktop is not something that anyone who wants to use the computer as a tool cares about."
So?
1) You claimed that Metacity is like Windows 1. The existence of these features proof you wrong.
2) That not everbody cares about these features are irrelevant. See 1.
3) These features are still VERY useful. Not only to me, but also to lots of people I know. They may not be useful to everyone, but they are for many people. Not everybody needs popup blocking either but that doesn't mean Mozilla shouldn't have that feature!
"They care about something they turn on, do work with, and turn off."
Which is what Metacity exactly is. You start it, it works. Great default settings. No configuration required to make it usable for average users.
The people who complain about the lack of viewport support are NOT average users. Their complaints do not apply to average users.
"They don't want to think about organizing files, changing configs, dealing with dependancies, etc, etc, etc."
As I will say *yet again*, Metacity works out-of-the-box without ANY configuration!
"Which was my point: if you require a few hundred lines of lisp to get some desired behaviour from a system, the system is broken."
You're wrong. This issue is about *viewports*, some Windows doesn't have, and probably never will. We all agree that Windows is usable for average users, don't we? Therebefore we can conclude that average users don't need viewports, or don't know that such thing exists.
You *only* have to edit lisp code if you want viewports. If you want viewports, then you are *not* an average user. Thus, this whole issue about editing config files do not apply to average users at all.
Out-of-the-box, Metacity works very similar to Windows, which means *usable for average users*.
Your complaint is like complaining that you have to dive into the Windows registery and edit tens of keys just to have a Open In DOS extension menu for every folder. Sure, editing the registry is far from easy, but if you want that Open In DOS menu then *you are not an average user*.
"I will never, ever be able to use Linux for my grandmother, or if I'm in a hurry."
Your grandmother doesn't even know what viewports are, so this doesn't apply to her.
"Metacity now is where Windows 1.0 was in terms of usability. Thanks, but no thanks."
Can Windows 1.0, heck, even Windows XP, do:
- Workspaces
- Window (un)rolling
- Magnetic window movement
All out-of-the-box? I don't think so. Especially the first and the latter are THE reasons why Metacity (and many other Linux WMs) are much and much more usable than any version Windows.
The window border in Windows is just that - a window border. No features like in Linux WMs that allows you to organize your windows easier.
100 MB on today's 60 GB harddisks! Wow, what a bloat!
There is no battle. Why fight in a battle that doesn't even exist? Face it: GNOME and KDE will both continue to exist, just like WindowMaker and Enlightenment and BlackBox will. GNOME isn't heading the same direction as KDE, they are not, and cannot, be fighting.
"8 modules required to install a full featured KDE desktop.
80 modules required to install a halfway functional GNOME desktop."
8 big modules required to install a full featured KDE desktop.
80 small modules required to install a halfway functional GNOME desktop.
Let's do some simple math here.
KDE module = 20, GNOME module = 1.
20 * 8 = 160
1 * 160 = 160
End result: the same.
Use Garnome or apt-get or emerge to install GNOME and it's just as easy as KDE.
"There is no American vs. Serbia war either but it doesn't mean people aren't dieing from DU because of the remnants of the war"
D istributionsHere chose KDE as default.
More reason to kill off the remnants in order to prevent even more people getting killed.
"1) RedHat just recently striped a tremendous amount out of KDE killing it as a desktop alternative."
In other news: RedHat forked GNOME and replaced it's icons and menus, therebefore killing GNOME as a desktop alternative.
In yet other news: people who were complaining about how Linux will never succeed on the desktop until both desktops look alike are now massively attacking RedHat.
"2) Sun's corporate desktop options are Gnome & CDE. Doesn't KDE make a lot more sense as an upgrade to CDE?"
What's your point? One of the reasons they chose GNOME was that they were more familiar with C. They made a choice, period.
So what if RedHat and Sun chose GNOME as default? Mandrake/SuSE/Caldera/Xandros/Lycoris/InsertOther
That KDE is better is your opinion. Others may disagree. Why force them to use KDE? If they want KDE they'll install it themselves.
KDE still has more market share. You have nothing to complain about.
"The idea that you would have a battle as bloody as that and then everybody just forgets about is out of the question. Gnome was born from a truly hateful campain against KDE. Since then its has created some great software, but everything is not over."
No, it's just not over in the minds of a small minority like you. You still hold a grudge for whatever reason. Give it up, it's over.
Guess what? The rest of the world doesn't give a damn about your stupid little holy war! Even the GNOME and KDE developers themselve agree with this.
In other news: the release of KDE 3.2 means the end of Enlightenment, WindowMaker and Blackbox.
Get real. There is no GNOME vs KDE war. KDE cannot kill GNOME, nor can GNOME kill KDE. They will both continue to exist.