None of that matters in the face of the allegations that China is doing these things on foreign soil. Whether or not Falun Gong is a 'fucking crazy cult' or not is only your opinion. The Scientologists have a right to believe what they do too, it's their methods of dealing with non believers that I have a problem with. I've seen enough of that to know what it's about I think. I'm not about to call them names though, or tell them they are wrong.
"Homes used by terrorists or to smuggle weapons (hidden tunnels)"
Yes, well we all know what a threat to humanity hidden tunnels are.
"Without US weapons defending Israel (deterrence works great), Israel would now be North Egypt, West Jordon and Southern Lebanon. The concept of a Palestinian state would be a footnote in history."
So would Israel. I'm not sure Israel is justified in existing in the first place. What went on in Germany was attrocious, but I don't think it gives anyone the right to behave this way. Stop advancing, and give them their damn land route. What is so hard about that?
"How can you reason that it will suddenly become the US's business when one side decides to "play fair"?"
Because hypocrisy is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter which one is "fairer", fair is fair, and anything else is unfair.
"Israel has been attacked by its neighbours who have sworn to "push israel into the sea" and the US shouldn't help Israel defend itself?"
Yes, exactly. They bulldoze homes of Palastinian people, and build settlements on their land. This is outrageous. It makes no more sense for you to defend the US' relationship with Israel, than it does for Syria or Lebanon to aid the Palestinians. Less so, because it's really none of the US' business until one side or the other decides to play fair at least.
"The Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it's the only place of conflict where the reporters can sit down and have sushi whilst they wirte about how horrible Israel is."
No, the Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it is the source of all this craziness with terrorism this, and terrorism that. This is exactly what I mean when I say "The situation is very very sad, and it just feeds on itself through fear."
Yes, and yes. Pretty much exactly the same way. Except that China isn't engaging in as many illegal trade practices. And they didn't deport the lady from Montreal to Syria.
"The fact is, if they used those weapons in an all out war, the Palestinians wouldn't have a fucking change."
The fact is, they should not have those weapons at all. I find the idea of giving someone weapons and calling it humanitarian aid offensive.
Isreal has been attacked by its neighbours, but Isreal has also attacked them. Neither one is right
Suicide bombers are attempting to show how hopeless they feel about their situation in the very loudest way possible. There is a fair solution, and it doesn't involve more death. Unfortunately the suicide bombers have done such a good job, that they have also lost their sympathy card. And further, Isreal doesn't feel it can offer them anything without being seen as giving in to terrorism. The situation is very very sad, and it just feeds on itself through fear.
The best thing the world can do at this point is look on with sorrow I'm afraid. The best thing that Isreal, and the Palestinians can do at this point is wake up from the terrible nightmare they are having. Nothing is worth all this.
"I think we're more against lies. If you say it's clearly because of the people's rights and that's why you're invading we might support you."
The reality is, if we go to war with China nuclear weapons are going to be used. They will likely also ally with the "Axis of Evil" that Bush invented. We have to send a strong message that our citizens are free, and that isn't up for negotiation though. It doesn't take a war to do that.
"No, governments should do nothing while palestinians blow up kids in nightclubs and school buses."
They should consider themselves lucky that the US gives them billions of dollars of weapons to fight enemies that are equiped with rocks and primitive explosives. Enemies that they imposed upon, and enemies that they threaten and steal from when they attempt to expand their borders.
"Yes, they're people will just suffer a lot more and lose whatever chance they may have had at goverment reform in the future"
At this point I'm pretty sure the Chinese people feel hopeless about any chances for reform. Iraq, North Korea, and Cuba aren't involved in spying on and arresting citizens of foreign countries, that we know of. What a government does to its citizens is one thing, but foreigners are different. The citizens have a responsibility to keep their governments in line. I fear the same issues have arisen closer to home as well though, there's plenty of this stuff going on right now in the US.
This is true too. I am much less familiar with that situation than this one. I am however aware that the Jew -vs- Muslim war has tyrants on both sides. Buddhism is concerned primarily with having compassion for others. I do not believe you will find an example of Buddhists retaliating against oppression. I have no idea the depths of what happens in Israel, or to Muslims when they travel there, but this quote is what I am concerned about:
Montreal resident Ying Zhu says when she went back to China to visit her mother recently, she was arrested by agents of China's Public Security Bureau and held for 33 days.
She says in addition to trying to recruit her to spy on Falun Gong members in Canada they demanded she give them detailed information on friends listed in her phone book.
"When I refused they told me they knew everything about every Falun Gong practitioner in Montreal," she said.
Montreal accountant Wey Dun Gwang says he's received threats from people he believes to be agents working out of the Chinese Consulate. "They said, 'You'd better not practise Falun Gong or your life will be in danger.'"
If there is truth to these accusations that the Chinese government is intimidating citizens of my country in any way for something such as practicing Falun Gong, then we have a serious problem that need s addressing.
I'm in no way in favour of military action, but this is clearly and act of war on their part if it is true.
"Part of the drug price in the US goes to subsidise the lower profit in Canada."
Well thanks very much on behalf of Canadians. If I were a US consumer, I would be mad as hell about that. Especially if I was one who was in need of the medication.
[Special note for the rednecks: Do not take this to mean you should liberate Canada. Fix your system instead.]
The example you give about movements to not show shows is quite far removed from this case.
Such movements are usually backed by religious groups, church organizations and such, center around "moral" opposition to controversial topics and have a regular Sunday audience
I'm sorry if this offends you, but I view Science as a religion as well. Software is a science too, we see religious wars about software all the time here on Slashdot. Users groups are a step in the right direction of the equivilant of "religious groups, church organizations and such". Here we are at The Church of Slashdot, in moral outrage about DMCA-like bills being passed in Canada.
I think it's a great idea to organize some kind of grassroots (I hate that word though, Preston Manning irritates me to no end and he ruined it for me) political force in Canada to oppose this bullshit.
"Call your local radiostation and ask them to stop playing metallica."
We've done better, and not requested Metallica. Nobody talks about Metallica anymore without mentioning how much they suck now.
Having said that, And Justice For All... is the pinacle of Heavy Metal technology in my opinion, but man do they suck now. I'm convinced there was some kind of alien abduction. The real James and Lars are off on the mothership somewhere. I hope they're okay.
What a shame nobody has spent some mod points to give that the Insightful moderation that it deserves. How come you've been here so long and kept your mouth shut all this time?
"Isn't this the same bill the federal budget cuts for public broadcasting are on?"
Thanks for the link. Frightening as it may be. I long for the day when pushed media content is in the minority, and people get their news in an open forum like this one for the most part. He who controls the media controls the past, present, and future as far as most people are concerned. Public broadcasting is an essential part of the current spectrum of news sources. Until the commons that the Internet brings is universal, we need them very very much.
"People need to start shunning the US. Abroad, businesses need to stop doing so much business with the US."
This is happening now. I find it very sad that it has to, but it is. The ironic thing is, that a lot of it is by their own actions. They are actively discouraging the practice of importing producs from elsewhere. People don't want to do business with you at all in that situation. The trade defecit that the US is experiencing is proof of this. They don't have the resources to sustain their standard of living. They need us in the rest of the world as much as they need to serve their own interests.
"They are conservative when it comes to "morals and values" and the like"
How is that? They generally support capitol punishment, just love to blow stuff up, and dealing in weapons is what they do best. I can't think of many things further from my morals and values than the Republican party of today, and recent memory.
"Yes, CNN sues people constantly for bootlegging old Larry King Live shows."
Its the "being part of a media conglomerate" that you missed I think. The corporation is massive, and is very much a big part of "Hollywood", and the music industry. AOL/Time Warner/Master of the Universe.
ok, dumb (and off-topic) question - is there any point in someone contacting their MP, if their MP is a Liberal?
I think it is, simply for the fact that they won't be able to pass controversial legislation. The Conservatives will jump on them like a pack of rabid wolves. The NDP might actually be of some use here too, they might be more inclined to oppose legislation that goes against the good of the commons.
Besides that, it's the Liberals who came up with this bill. I think its important that we debate with them as to why they are wrong in proposing this bill. In doing that, there is a possibility that our opinions become part of the process for future legislation once this one is defeated. The Liberal party isn't a monarchy like we imagine it to be most of the time. Bills come about through its members, and elected representatives.
They know they are going to the polls within a year most likely, if we yell loud enough they'll just let this one die on the backburner. I'm fairly certain of that.
"Drug companies fix pricing so that they're more expensive than hard core narcotics and they're an "industry that does a lot of good"."
What I find interesting is the difference in price of those drugs on either side of the US/Canada border. Why doesn't the US adopt a similar policy of restricting their price? They are addicted to the economic benefits of the situation they have created in selling out their own citizens. Particularly the less fortunate ones.
You can't trust any corporation to do anything that doesn't directly increase their revenue stream, its just not in their nature. We have to put restrictions on them if we want them to play fair.
"This is one of the attitudes that a lot of people have in the oss community that disturbs me the most. Not only between contributors of the same project but on things that came before."
When scientists publish their ideas which are formed based on the accumulated knowledge of others, are they asked to give up their copyright? I honestly don't know, that's a question not a statement. I know many publishing companies take copyright from book authors, but I don't know how academic journals work. Please notice I didn't say that it was any less significant either. That word "symbiosis" is the key.
"He wants people to buy his product from him not someone else that also has his code. He needs to make money to pay his mortgage, send his kids to college etc."
He should change his business model, because someone else may very well come along and offer a competing product at no cost, and with more freedom. He will simply be obsolete, living in a cardboard box, and starving with dumb kids.;)
"how do you make money from open source software?"
I make money by charging for my time, not other people's products. Typically I hear about someone or some company that needs some piece of software, or I think it would be beneficial to them. I push as much free software that I am familiar with on him as I possibly can, and hope that he will need some revision to it with the understanding that he can go anywhere he likes to get those changes. Very often he comes to me to get them, because I have earned his trust. End users give me my bread and butter.
"I see Linus having a different view from RMS"
As with you and I, I see Linus as having a variation of the same idea that RMS has. Not a different one entirely. I'm not talking about hobbyists exclusively when I say that copyright assignments will discourage contributions. I'm also thinking of people who work at companies that compete with Sun. Think of IBM contributing code to OpenSolaris in the same magnitude that they have with Linux. They undoubtedly will make some contributions to OpenSolaris, but the assignment issue would keep them from adopting it as their main strategy. Put that in perspective of their current battle with SCO. Where would we be if Sun (or worse, SCO themselves) owned the copyright to JFS, NUMA, RCU, etc? Watching Linux be ripped to shreds by the vultures is where. The very fact that IBM still owns the copyright on those items is what gives them the right to relicense them under the GPL.
"I think Sun is doing pretty well adapting."
Me too, but they are by no means fully adapted, that's all I'm saying.
"If open source is so much better, where are the complete free javas?"
Up and coming. Sun's Java is not completely unfree either. The community source license has its problems, but it does also permit a great deal of freedom. It is less free than the two I mentioned though, and I believe they or some other project will make Sun's obsolete. Perhaps IBM will open their JRE, if they have the right to do so, who knows.
"Don't even get me started with IBM and open source though."
Hahahah, I'm very mistrustful of them too, but they have been a good citizen of the free software community thus far. That is very much my observation.
P.S. Very interesting points you bring up. I have to say this is one of the most pleasant discussions I've ever had on Slashdot. Thanks for that.
Slashdot Mirror
None of that matters in the face of the allegations that China is doing these things on foreign soil. Whether or not Falun Gong is a 'fucking crazy cult' or not is only your opinion. The Scientologists have a right to believe what they do too, it's their methods of dealing with non believers that I have a problem with. I've seen enough of that to know what it's about I think. I'm not about to call them names though, or tell them they are wrong.
"Homes used by terrorists or to smuggle weapons (hidden tunnels)"
Yes, well we all know what a threat to humanity hidden tunnels are.
"Without US weapons defending Israel (deterrence works great), Israel would now be North Egypt, West Jordon and Southern Lebanon. The concept of a Palestinian state would be a footnote in history."
So would Israel. I'm not sure Israel is justified in existing in the first place. What went on in Germany was attrocious, but I don't think it gives anyone the right to behave this way. Stop advancing, and give them their damn land route. What is so hard about that?
"How can you reason that it will suddenly become the US's business when one side decides to "play fair"?"
Because hypocrisy is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter which one is "fairer", fair is fair, and anything else is unfair.
"Israel has been attacked by its neighbours who have sworn to "push israel into the sea" and the US shouldn't help Israel defend itself?"
Yes, exactly. They bulldoze homes of Palastinian people, and build settlements on their land. This is outrageous. It makes no more sense for you to defend the US' relationship with Israel, than it does for Syria or Lebanon to aid the Palestinians. Less so, because it's really none of the US' business until one side or the other decides to play fair at least.
"The Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it's the only place of conflict where the reporters can sit down and have sushi whilst they wirte about how horrible Israel is."
No, the Israeli/Middle-east conflict is so popular because it is the source of all this craziness with terrorism this, and terrorism that. This is exactly what I mean when I say "The situation is very very sad, and it just feeds on itself through fear."
Yes, and yes. Pretty much exactly the same way. Except that China isn't engaging in as many illegal trade practices. And they didn't deport the lady from Montreal to Syria.
"The fact is, if they used those weapons in an all out war, the Palestinians wouldn't have a fucking change."
The fact is, they should not have those weapons at all. I find the idea of giving someone weapons and calling it humanitarian aid offensive.
Isreal has been attacked by its neighbours, but Isreal has also attacked them. Neither one is right
Suicide bombers are attempting to show how hopeless they feel about their situation in the very loudest way possible. There is a fair solution, and it doesn't involve more death. Unfortunately the suicide bombers have done such a good job, that they have also lost their sympathy card. And further, Isreal doesn't feel it can offer them anything without being seen as giving in to terrorism. The situation is very very sad, and it just feeds on itself through fear.
The best thing the world can do at this point is look on with sorrow I'm afraid. The best thing that Isreal, and the Palestinians can do at this point is wake up from the terrible nightmare they are having. Nothing is worth all this.
"I think we're more against lies. If you say it's clearly because of the people's rights and that's why you're invading we might support you."
The reality is, if we go to war with China nuclear weapons are going to be used. They will likely also ally with the "Axis of Evil" that Bush invented. We have to send a strong message that our citizens are free, and that isn't up for negotiation though. It doesn't take a war to do that.
"No, governments should do nothing while palestinians blow up kids in nightclubs and school buses."
They should consider themselves lucky that the US gives them billions of dollars of weapons to fight enemies that are equiped with rocks and primitive explosives. Enemies that they imposed upon, and enemies that they threaten and steal from when they attempt to expand their borders.
Israel lost its sympathy card a long time ago.
"Yes, they're people will just suffer a lot more and lose whatever chance they may have had at goverment reform in the future"
At this point I'm pretty sure the Chinese people feel hopeless about any chances for reform. Iraq, North Korea, and Cuba aren't involved in spying on and arresting citizens of foreign countries, that we know of. What a government does to its citizens is one thing, but foreigners are different. The citizens have a responsibility to keep their governments in line. I fear the same issues have arisen closer to home as well though, there's plenty of this stuff going on right now in the US.
This is true too. I am much less familiar with that situation than this one. I am however aware that the Jew -vs- Muslim war has tyrants on both sides. Buddhism is concerned primarily with having compassion for others. I do not believe you will find an example of Buddhists retaliating against oppression. I have no idea the depths of what happens in Israel, or to Muslims when they travel there, but this quote is what I am concerned about:
"yet Saddam Hussein can kill 2 million people and almost all here on /. would say we should not have gone to war with Iraq"
Excellent point. This is why I am also not in favour of military action against China. On this account, at least you cannot call me a hypocrite.
I'm talking about diplomacy, and possibly outlawing trade with them.
"Leave China alone for Christ's sake. You're not going to change things, especially if you are NOT IN CHINA!"
No way. This has gone way too far.
If there is truth to these accusations that the Chinese government is intimidating citizens of my country in any way for something such as practicing Falun Gong, then we have a serious problem that need s addressing.
I'm in no way in favour of military action, but this is clearly and act of war on their part if it is true.
Well thanks very much on behalf of Canadians. If I were a US consumer, I would be mad as hell about that. Especially if I was one who was in need of the medication.
The example you give about movements to not show shows is quite far removed from this case. Such movements are usually backed by religious groups, church organizations and such, center around "moral" opposition to controversial topics and have a regular Sunday audience
I'm sorry if this offends you, but I view Science as a religion as well. Software is a science too, we see religious wars about software all the time here on Slashdot. Users groups are a step in the right direction of the equivilant of "religious groups, church organizations and such". Here we are at The Church of Slashdot, in moral outrage about DMCA-like bills being passed in Canada.
I think it's a great idea to organize some kind of grassroots (I hate that word though, Preston Manning irritates me to no end and he ruined it for me) political force in Canada to oppose this bullshit.
"Their "Napster stance" just gave me ammunition to ridicule them."
:)
In the spirit of ridiculing Metallica about the Napster issue, here's some links to the classic cartoons.
Napster Bad!
Metallicops
Metallica Millionaire
Sue All The World
The Crue Responds
My personal favourite:
Metallicock
"Call your local radiostation and ask them to stop playing metallica."
We've done better, and not requested Metallica. Nobody talks about Metallica anymore without mentioning how much they suck now.
Having said that, And Justice For All... is the pinacle of Heavy Metal technology in my opinion, but man do they suck now. I'm convinced there was some kind of alien abduction. The real James and Lars are off on the mothership somewhere. I hope they're okay.
What a shame nobody has spent some mod points to give that the Insightful moderation that it deserves. How come you've been here so long and kept your mouth shut all this time?
"Isn't this the same bill the federal budget cuts for public broadcasting are on?"
Thanks for the link. Frightening as it may be. I long for the day when pushed media content is in the minority, and people get their news in an open forum like this one for the most part. He who controls the media controls the past, present, and future as far as most people are concerned. Public broadcasting is an essential part of the current spectrum of news sources. Until the commons that the Internet brings is universal, we need them very very much.
"When Rome falls."
Oh crap.. I'm right next door. This can't be good.
"People need to start shunning the US. Abroad, businesses need to stop doing so much business with the US."
This is happening now. I find it very sad that it has to, but it is. The ironic thing is, that a lot of it is by their own actions. They are actively discouraging the practice of importing producs from elsewhere. People don't want to do business with you at all in that situation. The trade defecit that the US is experiencing is proof of this. They don't have the resources to sustain their standard of living. They need us in the rest of the world as much as they need to serve their own interests.
"They are conservative when it comes to "morals and values" and the like"
How is that? They generally support capitol punishment, just love to blow stuff up, and dealing in weapons is what they do best. I can't think of many things further from my morals and values than the Republican party of today, and recent memory.
Sorry to say.
I started to laugh, but then reality sickened me.
"Yes, CNN sues people constantly for bootlegging old Larry King Live shows."
Its the "being part of a media conglomerate" that you missed I think. The corporation is massive, and is very much a big part of "Hollywood", and the music industry. AOL/Time Warner/Master of the Universe.
ok, dumb (and off-topic) question - is there any point in someone contacting their MP, if their MP is a Liberal?
I think it is, simply for the fact that they won't be able to pass controversial legislation. The Conservatives will jump on them like a pack of rabid wolves. The NDP might actually be of some use here too, they might be more inclined to oppose legislation that goes against the good of the commons.
Besides that, it's the Liberals who came up with this bill. I think its important that we debate with them as to why they are wrong in proposing this bill. In doing that, there is a possibility that our opinions become part of the process for future legislation once this one is defeated. The Liberal party isn't a monarchy like we imagine it to be most of the time. Bills come about through its members, and elected representatives.
They know they are going to the polls within a year most likely, if we yell loud enough they'll just let this one die on the backburner. I'm fairly certain of that.
"Drug companies fix pricing so that they're more expensive than hard core narcotics and they're an "industry that does a lot of good"."
What I find interesting is the difference in price of those drugs on either side of the US/Canada border. Why doesn't the US adopt a similar policy of restricting their price? They are addicted to the economic benefits of the situation they have created in selling out their own citizens. Particularly the less fortunate ones.
You can't trust any corporation to do anything that doesn't directly increase their revenue stream, its just not in their nature. We have to put restrictions on them if we want them to play fair.
"This is one of the attitudes that a lot of people have in the oss community that disturbs me the most. Not only between contributors of the same project but on things that came before."
;)
When scientists publish their ideas which are formed based on the accumulated knowledge of others, are they asked to give up their copyright? I honestly don't know, that's a question not a statement. I know many publishing companies take copyright from book authors, but I don't know how academic journals work. Please notice I didn't say that it was any less significant either. That word "symbiosis" is the key.
"He wants people to buy his product from him not someone else that also has his code. He needs to make money to pay his mortgage, send his kids to college etc."
He should change his business model, because someone else may very well come along and offer a competing product at no cost, and with more freedom. He will simply be obsolete, living in a cardboard box, and starving with dumb kids.
"how do you make money from open source software?"
I make money by charging for my time, not other people's products. Typically I hear about someone or some company that needs some piece of software, or I think it would be beneficial to them. I push as much free software that I am familiar with on him as I possibly can, and hope that he will need some revision to it with the understanding that he can go anywhere he likes to get those changes. Very often he comes to me to get them, because I have earned his trust. End users give me my bread and butter.
"I see Linus having a different view from RMS"
As with you and I, I see Linus as having a variation of the same idea that RMS has. Not a different one entirely. I'm not talking about hobbyists exclusively when I say that copyright assignments will discourage contributions. I'm also thinking of people who work at companies that compete with Sun. Think of IBM contributing code to OpenSolaris in the same magnitude that they have with Linux. They undoubtedly will make some contributions to OpenSolaris, but the assignment issue would keep them from adopting it as their main strategy. Put that in perspective of their current battle with SCO. Where would we be if Sun (or worse, SCO themselves) owned the copyright to JFS, NUMA, RCU, etc? Watching Linux be ripped to shreds by the vultures is where. The very fact that IBM still owns the copyright on those items is what gives them the right to relicense them under the GPL.
"I think Sun is doing pretty well adapting."
Me too, but they are by no means fully adapted, that's all I'm saying.
"If open source is so much better, where are the complete free javas?"
Up and coming. Sun's Java is not completely unfree either. The community source license has its problems, but it does also permit a great deal of freedom. It is less free than the two I mentioned though, and I believe they or some other project will make Sun's obsolete. Perhaps IBM will open their JRE, if they have the right to do so, who knows.
"Don't even get me started with IBM and open source though."
Hahahah, I'm very mistrustful of them too, but they have been a good citizen of the free software community thus far. That is very much my observation.
P.S. Very interesting points you bring up. I have to say this is one of the most pleasant discussions I've ever had on Slashdot. Thanks for that.