"I was a conservative. Then they changed what `conservative' was. Now what I am isn't conservative, and what is `conservative' seems weird and scary to me. It'll happen to you!"
It happened to the liberals too.
liberal (liberal):
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Sounds pretty good to me. There's no safe ideologies anymore.
"Am I the only one who is chilled by these kinds of stories? At what point will the average american say 'this is the thing which has made it clear to me: they have gone too far!'?"
They're all just bricks in the wall. It's hard to get a proper perspective without seeing the big picture. That's very difficult in the face of the propaganda.
"But I don't really think software companies are about to think "Sure, its reasonable to think that mac users are willing to spend extra money just to use our software.""
That's what I thought about Crossover, and WineX on Linux. Wine is free (and $0) and works just as well 99% of the time. Aparrently some people are interested in them though. Codeweavers does contribute a lot back to Wine. If Wine gets a native port to OS X, that should mean more developers helping to implementing the MS API. That can only be a good thing. IMHO anyway.:)
"I love western civilization in general, but this is the one part of our culture which drives me nuts lately: the completely vicarious "us"-versus-them cheerleading... what I like to call the "sports fan" mentality."
Well said.. Success for everyone should be the ideal.
"A trade embargo is not going to make China change it's policy on internet content filtering."
If China wants to try and filter the Internet, they are free to do so. It's the detainment and intimidation of citizens of foreign countries that I have a really big problem with.
"maybe you should ask any economist slightly to the right of Lenin whether price controls work"
I'll do that. It would also be a good idea for you to look at what other countries do, and see how many of them use the US model of a free market for pharmaceuticals.
You can worship the free market system if you like. Don't pretend it's the answer to everything though, because it's not.
Drug re-importation would also help correct your system, but do it from somewhere else. You can't epect a nation of 30,000,000+ to support the pharmaceutical requirements of your nation alone.
It's a shame you don't have the same right to health care found elsewhere in the world.
I hope they included a timer which will deploy the sail even without a command, just in case a problem in communication/control were to happen.
Would it do any good if they are unable to communicate with it to deploy the sail? I suppose it helps to know if the mechanics of the deployment work properly. But it still seems to me like sending a message in a bottle which nobody ever finds. There's not a lot we can learn from something that doesn't send any information back.
I'm not sure what exactly it is about this comment that offended you so much CowBoyNeal, but I'm sorry to hear that you feel so strongly about it as to make me your foe.
It's unfortunate that you have to hide behind your semi-anonymous troll account rather than enter into discussion about what exactly the disagreement is.
The question is, what are we going to do about it? What are our options? All of these events, and the apathy I hear coming from about half of Americans that I talk to, aren't good. How can this be solved without another civil war? Nobody wants that.
A lot of the protest that is happening, isn't worthy of respect. When I see thousands of people flooding the streets of New York to protest the war in Iraq, that fills me with great hope. When they start vandalizing and smashing in the office of the immigration department though, it vanishes. Cooler heads need to come into the picture I think.
"No, it isn't. An "act of war" is when soldiers force their way across your borders, and attack your people."
I think that is a misrepresentation. When one nation disrepects anothers borders in order to persecute peaceful people for their beliefs, that goes against a fundamental principle in our society. People are free to believe whatever they like. Only actions that hurt others are justification for persecution, and even then there is cause for diplomacy.
"Your recognize that your laws don't exceed your borders: and you keep a careful watch on them for that reason."
That is what I am saying as well. China can wage war on its own citizens for practicing some religion or other, and that is one matter that concerns me. When China extends that war onto Canadian and U.S. soil, then it becomes something much more. It isn't tolerated.
You and I obviously have different interpretations of what an act of war is. I consider it to be an act that provokes war. In case it wasn't clear, I am not advocating any kind of military action against China, please don't act as if I am.
"Now that the "War on Terror" really is a war, with real, live soldiers out killing real, live civilians"
It may be a war, but it is not a war on terror by any means. The war on terror is in itself terrifying. They'll have to start fighting themselves soon to get anywhere.
"you should do some reading about the '48, '67, and '73 wars. They are wars of aggression and conquest launched by Israel's Arab neighbors."
1946 until now, looks to me like someone has an unfair advantage. They've got friends, you've got friends. It's a damn shame they have to be mutually exclusive. The crusades were a great plague on the region, and so is war from Arab allies.
"You should also look at Barak's peace offer. It's a great deal."
No, I don't think so. Maybe a little prone to hysteria sometimes, but no more so than your average Joe.
"You DO realize that suicide bombers seek out crowded areas and then blow themselves up along with as many innocent civilians as possible? I fail to see how that doesn't "involve more death" nor do I see how it is a fair solution."
Just to be clear about this, I did not say the suicide bombers are justified. What they do is just as bad as when Israel attacks them. What needs to happen is both sides need to stop, and until at least one side does this thing will escalate as more and more other nations are brought in to the conflict.
The question of who is innocent in this I do not understand. If one side or the other would refrain from terrorism, only then could they claim innocence. What we have now is two guilty parties arguing politics while real people suffer on both sides.
I agree with your sentiments against terrorism completely.
The name calling that goes on in the software world comes from both sides. I try to stay out of it as much as possible. I admit that sometimes I too fall victim to the hysteria. I also try to take Theo's comments lightly. He believes what he does (and very strongly it seems). There is a very interesting interview on Newsforge with Theo de Raadt, and Christos Zoulas. You contrast the answers given by Theo against those of Christos, and its pretty humorous. I find it strange how Theo talks about OpenBSD's 'flexibility to move forward fast', compared with Christos comment 'Linux's code is much newer and it keeps constantly being re-factored'. They're both talking about BSD. The lesson for me is, name calling doesn't help to gain respect whatsoever, and that even when we believe something as a matter of principle it always helps to try and really understand the other perspective to make sure we aren't fooling ourselves.
I don't think its fair to say that the relationship of Open Source to Unix, is entirely one of Linux/FreeSoftware/OpenSource inheriting ideas and concepts from proprietary Unix. The Free and Open movements have their roots in that world too. There was a time before the era of Microsoft, where proprietary software as we know it today was somewhat of a fringe thing. There was a lot of code transfer both ways as was made evident during the USL lawsuit as well. If it helps any, props to AT&T, and everyone else involved. It was a very open environment that Unix evolved in, and the Free Software movement thanks you for the great idea. Now watch as we take it to a whole other level.
"It sounds like you're doing more integration rather than innovation and I don't mean that in a bad way."
What attracts me to Unix is the way we piece small bits of software together in creative ways to acheive some goal, that's a lot of fun. Maybe it doesn't fit some definitions of innovation, but it certainly does fit mine. I love to code too, the fact that I can make a living doing it I am very greatful for, but I would be doing it anyway. That's where innovation comes from in the free software world. It's the same reason musicians write music, even though most of them do it for very little money. And especially these days, I find a lot of great music in the Indie scene, the commercial stuff is very same old, same old.
"Who is going to do the boring work that comes with software development?"
Whoever needs the boring work done. That's the beauty of it, if it's really helpful it happens. Otherwise it doesn't. Software development doesn't require a huge ammount of R&D, because it evolves in an open environment. When a need arrises someone fills it, or finds a way around it.
"PBS wouldn't be around without gov't funding as well as corporate and private donations."
PBS takes a lot of money to operate though. Software development doesn't today, its the 1,000,000 monkeys effect that the Internet provides for. (I'm willing to portray myself as a monkey for the sake of the argument, I have big ears too if it helps the imagery;) There is a lot of money to be made selling services on the free software stack which will continue to evolve with or without me, and that's just the reality I'm prepared to live with. I'd rather be in the know with Free Software technologies. I believe the method they come about through, is superior to the proprietary method and this ensures their success.
"Kaffee and GNU Classpath have been around a long long time and are still not complete. That's what I was trying to say."
I realized that. My point was that they aren't going away, they will continue to evolve, and they are increasingly becoming useful for a great many tasks. Sun's Java does fit my definition of Open Source currently, It's not "Free" though, and I just don't think
"Falun Gong is not Buddhism. Buddhism is not at all illegal in China, and there are many Buddhist temples."
Sorry, I meant to respond to this as well. China's history with Tibet is enough to make me fear their persecution. Especially based on their lack of respect for international borders. The practice of Buddhism was banned there, as Falun Gong is now in China. To me this fear of political instability is almost as frightening as fear of opposing religions.
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It happened to the liberals too.
liberal (liberal):
Sounds pretty good to me. There's no safe ideologies anymore.
"It's the liberals who want to give away private property - the conservatives want to give away PUBLIC property."
Just goes to show you that the sides aren't so clearly defined. We need to oppose dangerous ideas, not the liberals or the conservatives.
"Am I the only one who is chilled by these kinds of stories? At what point will the average american say 'this is the thing which has made it clear to me: they have gone too far!'?"
They're all just bricks in the wall. It's hard to get a proper perspective without seeing the big picture. That's very difficult in the face of the propaganda.
"if you are not smart enough to pass a drug-test, then you are not smart enough to work for him"
People that ignorant aren't worth working for.
What's this got to do with China not respecting the borders of sovereign nations?
"But I don't really think software companies are about to think "Sure, its reasonable to think that mac users are willing to spend extra money just to use our software.""
:)
That's what I thought about Crossover, and WineX on Linux. Wine is free (and $0) and works just as well 99% of the time. Aparrently some people are interested in them though. Codeweavers does contribute a lot back to Wine. If Wine gets a native port to OS X, that should mean more developers helping to implementing the MS API. That can only be a good thing. IMHO anyway.
When's this being ported to Wine? :)
"I love western civilization in general, but this is the one part of our culture which drives me nuts lately: the completely vicarious "us"-versus-them cheerleading... what I like to call the "sports fan" mentality."
Well said.. Success for everyone should be the ideal.
Ahhh.. That explains my confusion. :)
Thanks.
"Ah, just what Microsoft wanted a list of more companies to buy"
Which company, Sourceforge? OSDN?
I don't think MS will be buying out GPL projects any time soon. I'm not sure they even can.
"Any chance you might see a big sail in low Earth orbit?"
I thought the idea was to deploy the sail after it leaves orbit.
Were you thinking of Codewarrior maybe?
"A trade embargo is not going to make China change it's policy on internet content filtering."
If China wants to try and filter the Internet, they are free to do so. It's the detainment and intimidation of citizens of foreign countries that I have a really big problem with.
"It's not easy to defend against terrorists when you're trying to guarantee everyone's liberties."
Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to expect those liberties, if you aren't prepared to grant them to everyone?
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I am against Israel, because I'm not. I'm against the conflict.
"do you have to contact the board computer to see it moving or would it suffice for the board computer to automatically remove the breaks"
If you can't see or communicate with the car, then I see a certain futility in that, yeah..
"maybe you should ask any economist slightly to the right of Lenin whether price controls work"
I'll do that. It would also be a good idea for you to look at what other countries do, and see how many of them use the US model of a free market for pharmaceuticals.
You can worship the free market system if you like. Don't pretend it's the answer to everything though, because it's not.
Drug re-importation would also help correct your system, but do it from somewhere else. You can't epect a nation of 30,000,000+ to support the pharmaceutical requirements of your nation alone.
It's a shame you don't have the same right to health care found elsewhere in the world.
I hope they included a timer which will deploy the sail even without a command, just in case a problem in communication/control were to happen.
Would it do any good if they are unable to communicate with it to deploy the sail? I suppose it helps to know if the mechanics of the deployment work properly. But it still seems to me like sending a message in a bottle which nobody ever finds. There's not a lot we can learn from something that doesn't send any information back.
I'm not sure what exactly it is about this comment that offended you so much CowBoyNeal, but I'm sorry to hear that you feel so strongly about it as to make me your foe.
It's unfortunate that you have to hide behind your semi-anonymous troll account rather than enter into discussion about what exactly the disagreement is.
I wish you all the best.
The question is, what are we going to do about it? What are our options? All of these events, and the apathy I hear coming from about half of Americans that I talk to, aren't good. How can this be solved without another civil war? Nobody wants that.
A lot of the protest that is happening, isn't worthy of respect. When I see thousands of people flooding the streets of New York to protest the war in Iraq, that fills me with great hope. When they start vandalizing and smashing in the office of the immigration department though, it vanishes. Cooler heads need to come into the picture I think.
"No, it isn't. An "act of war" is when soldiers force their way across your borders, and attack your people."
I think that is a misrepresentation. When one nation disrepects anothers borders in order to persecute peaceful people for their beliefs, that goes against a fundamental principle in our society. People are free to believe whatever they like. Only actions that hurt others are justification for persecution, and even then there is cause for diplomacy.
"Your recognize that your laws don't exceed your borders: and you keep a careful watch on them for that reason."
That is what I am saying as well. China can wage war on its own citizens for practicing some religion or other, and that is one matter that concerns me. When China extends that war onto Canadian and U.S. soil, then it becomes something much more. It isn't tolerated.
You and I obviously have different interpretations of what an act of war is. I consider it to be an act that provokes war. In case it wasn't clear, I am not advocating any kind of military action against China, please don't act as if I am.
"Now that the "War on Terror" really is a war, with real, live soldiers out killing real, live civilians"
It may be a war, but it is not a war on terror by any means. The war on terror is in itself terrifying. They'll have to start fighting themselves soon to get anywhere.
"you should do some reading about the '48, '67, and '73 wars. They are wars of aggression and conquest launched by Israel's Arab neighbors."
1946 until now, looks to me like someone has an unfair advantage. They've got friends, you've got friends. It's a damn shame they have to be mutually exclusive. The crusades were a great plague on the region, and so is war from Arab allies.
"You should also look at Barak's peace offer. It's a great deal."
Errrmmm.. Yeah, generous. Wow.
"Are you completely nuts?"
No, I don't think so. Maybe a little prone to hysteria sometimes, but no more so than your average Joe.
"You DO realize that suicide bombers seek out crowded areas and then blow themselves up along with as many innocent civilians as possible? I fail to see how that doesn't "involve more death" nor do I see how it is a fair solution."
Just to be clear about this, I did not say the suicide bombers are justified. What they do is just as bad as when Israel attacks them. What needs to happen is both sides need to stop, and until at least one side does this thing will escalate as more and more other nations are brought in to the conflict.
The question of who is innocent in this I do not understand. If one side or the other would refrain from terrorism, only then could they claim innocence. What we have now is two guilty parties arguing politics while real people suffer on both sides.
I agree with your sentiments against terrorism completely.
The name calling that goes on in the software world comes from both sides. I try to stay out of it as much as possible. I admit that sometimes I too fall victim to the hysteria. I also try to take Theo's comments lightly. He believes what he does (and very strongly it seems). There is a very interesting interview on Newsforge with Theo de Raadt, and Christos Zoulas. You contrast the answers given by Theo against those of Christos, and its pretty humorous. I find it strange how Theo talks about OpenBSD's 'flexibility to move forward fast', compared with Christos comment 'Linux's code is much newer and it keeps constantly being re-factored'. They're both talking about BSD. The lesson for me is, name calling doesn't help to gain respect whatsoever, and that even when we believe something as a matter of principle it always helps to try and really understand the other perspective to make sure we aren't fooling ourselves.
;) There is a lot of money to be made selling services on the free software stack which will continue to evolve with or without me, and that's just the reality I'm prepared to live with. I'd rather be in the know with Free Software technologies. I believe the method they come about through, is superior to the proprietary method and this ensures their success.
I don't think its fair to say that the relationship of Open Source to Unix, is entirely one of Linux/FreeSoftware/OpenSource inheriting ideas and concepts from proprietary Unix. The Free and Open movements have their roots in that world too. There was a time before the era of Microsoft, where proprietary software as we know it today was somewhat of a fringe thing. There was a lot of code transfer both ways as was made evident during the USL lawsuit as well. If it helps any, props to AT&T, and everyone else involved. It was a very open environment that Unix evolved in, and the Free Software movement thanks you for the great idea. Now watch as we take it to a whole other level.
"It sounds like you're doing more integration rather than innovation and I don't mean that in a bad way."
What attracts me to Unix is the way we piece small bits of software together in creative ways to acheive some goal, that's a lot of fun. Maybe it doesn't fit some definitions of innovation, but it certainly does fit mine. I love to code too, the fact that I can make a living doing it I am very greatful for, but I would be doing it anyway. That's where innovation comes from in the free software world. It's the same reason musicians write music, even though most of them do it for very little money. And especially these days, I find a lot of great music in the Indie scene, the commercial stuff is very same old, same old.
"Who is going to do the boring work that comes with software development?"
Whoever needs the boring work done. That's the beauty of it, if it's really helpful it happens. Otherwise it doesn't. Software development doesn't require a huge ammount of R&D, because it evolves in an open environment. When a need arrises someone fills it, or finds a way around it.
"PBS wouldn't be around without gov't funding as well as corporate and private donations."
PBS takes a lot of money to operate though. Software development doesn't today, its the 1,000,000 monkeys effect that the Internet provides for. (I'm willing to portray myself as a monkey for the sake of the argument, I have big ears too if it helps the imagery
"Kaffee and GNU Classpath have been around a long long time and are still not complete. That's what I was trying to say."
I realized that. My point was that they aren't going away, they will continue to evolve, and they are increasingly becoming useful for a great many tasks. Sun's Java does fit my definition of Open Source currently, It's not "Free" though, and I just don't think
"Falun Gong is not Buddhism. Buddhism is not at all illegal in China, and there are many Buddhist temples."
Sorry, I meant to respond to this as well. China's history with Tibet is enough to make me fear their persecution. Especially based on their lack of respect for international borders. The practice of Buddhism was banned there, as Falun Gong is now in China. To me this fear of political instability is almost as frightening as fear of opposing religions.