That is the bigger problem here that needs to be addressed. It's entirely possible that you could get on some "thumbnail" page that's a bit careless and get a bunch of thumbnails...now of course you know you shouldn't look there...but it's also on your computer right now!!
Also, DAs make a practice of using non-illegal pictures to prosecute you too...so the jury thinks your REALLY bad. That is a much bigger problem!!! I'm sure Goat.cx ends up LOTS of times before these juries even though it's not illegal... eyeball melting, but not illegal... It's too bad there's not better legal representation for this type of stuff as legitimate, law complying porn shouldn't be even admisible in court... It's Judical malpractice for judges to even allow it as evidence!!!
Basically traditional client-server is dead! Thank god! Writing apps like that is a complete waste of time from an IT department standpoint [hint: that's why VB remains so popular!] I come from an AS400 background and the only thing "ugly" about RPG is the unpretty green screen...if I could somehow replace those terminals with something "pretty"...
Enter the web and something like Mozilla. In a corperate environment database apps are all the rage. Web programming neatly fits the design models of something like Cobol or RPG. We've come full circle so we might as well enjoy it! Most internal apps at most companies aren't worth being "professionally done" What matters more is that the data is pulled/dumped to a centeral server, it can be created quickly, and it can be modified quickly and rolled back out again the same day. That's why there's so much Cobol and RPG still out there...not because it's best, but it gets stuff done right now...and is really easy to version control. Like I said before, a Mozilla "application" would work much the same way only prettier!
As far as design rules that has nothing to do with being in mozilla or not...Old, new it really doesn't matter when it comes to making horrible design...that's another problem entirely!!
But the guy wants it to phone home...locking it up too tight means that the theives will just get pissed and break it rather than connect to the internet. typically away from major cities and collages and nobody really knows how to hack back into a mac... Espically with a Mac, you'd want them to easily get on. sure, you should have your data locked up, but most theives are looking for a quick windows laptop score...once they find out it doesn't "work" they'll hawk it or toss it.
The problem is that it's preceived as childish to pinch such pennies...and often their engineering won't even negotiate such terms. Also, the price of a server is only a few thousand dollars. Much of the software on these boxes easily runs $100k+ by the time you buy the "enterprise" version. You look like a nagging ninniy when you bring stuff like this up...EVEN THOUGH ITS YOUR JOB! It's simply stuff the management of most companies doesn't want to worry about.
Hence the guy is here. Trying to figure out a technological work-around so they can think ahead for their jobs and avoid impending vendor lockin. Even when the management doesn't care about it!
it's not his call to ORDER them all! I bet he didn't order a third of those! get it! What happens is Maintenance needs something, HR wants something "cool", Executives want cool data mining, Engineering and process control want something else....and all the vendors are primarily windows only. And if you think your're going to get multinationals like peoplesoft or Allen-bradley to support linux you're smoking crack. You could make a mint if you could prove me wrong! But of course the software is so crappily written that you wouldn't dare mix programs on servers even if they didn't hog resources. So every new "program" is simply ordered by the department managers with it's own server...often it HAS to be the vendor's model or they'll blame all the troubles on you!!!
Get it, this is REAL IT! he's got no say, but he's the computer guy...so he's gotta keep it up cause it's his JOB! Of course you could require all the departments to keep their own servers...but then they won't keep up licensing, virus scanning, spybots and all the other nasties of managing a company network...so again, you HAVE to support them all yourself. that's life in IT...they want your opinion and help, but won't take your advice to litterally save the company!!!
The bigger problem is that winXP is so good there'll be no need to upgrade to the new version when it actually ships anyway. They're already fighting inertia of too many perfectly useful Win98 installs that simply CAN'T upgrade even if they wanted too.
The more interesting thing is that while MS has a monopoly they can't gaurantee to sell MORE copies..and that's what's necessary for all of their "world domination" plans. All of their future business plans for DRM, sharepoint, WinFS all REQUIRE people to have the yet-to-be-released windows!!! Meanwhile, they'll have to keep selling XP... meaning that later they'll HAVE to give away most of the critical [expensive!] upgrades simply to have enough installed base
but there is NO legitimate market...get it! Even the US cost of a $99 OEM XP home is a month's wages over there.
Bill understands his "business" perfectly! There's more
precieved customer "value" in getting a ripped copy of an expensive title than paying to get a cheaper tool that meets your needs...That's the whole reasoning for Educational discounts as well. That way there will NEVER BE market for software until MS says there is!! Even Linux "free-as-in-speech" can't compete with MS "free-as-in-cake" price! People are already being trained to be consumers of MS products rather than cocreaters of OSS type software...
The real profit is that Bill can start collecting REAL money from business that have to have connections or preasence in "civilized" countries. Items like this...limiting access to patches and such...with more tools comming soon to limit any unauthorized windows boxes...prepare the way to make them pay when the time comes. After all, what multinational is going to allow UNPATCHED machines on their international corperate network? See, MS will get the money! Over here we already pay because the BSA has beat up our empolyers, schools, churches, clubs, etc. or face stiff fines...we aren't noticing the barriers they are putting up. Look at XP, it would appear that the majority of installs are legit! that's a huge achievement from even 3 years ago. Once the asians have to connect to our networks, the mechanisms are already in place to make them pay or else!
They don't actually MAKE anything! They somehow expect those same companies they DEECEIVED and then SUED to play fair and produce THEIR royalty ridden parts?
They attempted to sue an ENTIRE INDUSTRY of huge companies....It's not so much collusion as a general feeling of NEVER doing business with them again!!!
Living in Michigan I find it very Ironic that both Silicon valley and Hollywood are in southern CA... and the general hotbed is Nevada and west.
Funny thing is that Most of the operations are over there BECAUSE those states don't enforce common employment/contractual provisions that we do back east! Silicon Valley exists because manufacturing/technical labor law is so liberal that just about anybody can jump ship and take whatever IP they want out the door at any time...more often than not with minimal or no concequence...look at how often CEO's and programmer jump ships over there. Yet the entertainment industry follows NONE of those rules!!!! The Nationwide list of "entertainment" exceptions is fantastic...in almost every state they're allowed to pay sub-minimum wages and enforce contractual terms not allowed in any other profession. But CA is by far the worst double standard... What other state will consider "amnesty" for illegal workers but enforce multi-year record contracts even when the labels won't publish!!!
One thing that needs to happen is to move the center of both the hi-tech industry and entertainment to the midwest...The issues with superpowerful companies have already been dealt with over here! Remember, It's not Fair laws that they want...they want to keep the UNFAIR ones in THEIR favor...and claim Fair and balanced laws are not "Standard Industry Practice"!!!
Who'd sign that? The royalties are the companies only "right" to distribute the music. If they stop paying, they don't have right to distribute anymore and would loose the copyright assignment. Think of it like a lease for an apartment. You sign up for the full year up front and are expected to pay for the full time...While it's not enforced often, your landlord can collect rent even after you die against the contract if you've got the money.
Of course if they DID do that it would be A LOT easier for guys like Lessing to prove their cases against long term copyrights! You'd find in 50 years that all the heirs to royalties would be convinently "lost" and the companies would start keeping tons of extra royalties. Then you'd have real numbers to use against them that they really don't pay artists "forever" for their rights...so they keep up the accounting as a "show" of "good faith" that artist are getting a whole lot.
Duh! EA has a pretty cool replacement policy. just send the disc + some $$$ and they'll send you a new one. Last ones I got were some Sims disks [another EA game!] my kids cracked...it cost about $7-8 for "shipping and handling". Turn around was much less than the 6-8 weeks....I got mine back in about 3.
Dirty little secret: often you simply get another Whole new jewelcase too...i.e. including a new CD-Key!!!
seriously, it isn't unheard of pricing... after all, one of the network guys at my shop just spent $17000 on just CALS! to allow our already paid for dell desktops to talk to our SA'd servers. And support costs $300/ per call on top of that!!!
It's definately a reasonable price about 60% of a MS solution.
The key thing RH needs to be doing is answering a lot of the questions brought up at places like this. We're the people who are gonna choose or not choose RH over something else...we're the ones who gotta stake our jobs on them doing it right!!! What they've added is basicly "cheap" desktops to go with their enterprise servers. I'd like to hear more about the nitty-gritty of the support tools they've for the desktops...remote management, remote control, remote software install, maintenance and license management...just to start. There's a lot of stuff you can "do" with windows [all those added features] that most companies can't touch because they add another $200 per seat! If RH started including that type of stuff it could sell a great many people on switching over...better yet if they could get real world examples of a full RH system and show the improved worker productivity and reduced downtime of the system....and even better....show IT people leaving work at 5!
He's already check out most of the stuff on the disk as redistributable. It's been out for over a year now. Several companies have made exceptions so he can put the stuff on the disk and have it be redistributable. Note, Knoppix isn't about being "pure" OSS. It's meant to work and show off how good Linux can be... not turn everything on the disk into OSS. Klaus has banged on a lot of doors to get cool stuff put on the disk. Hint: Tell your favorite packages [flash, Nvidia drivers, etc] to get on board!!!!
Right now "Offical Sun" Java suffers from far too much feature creep for newbies or average users. There are too many editors, graphics apis, and program structure models....and it seems Sun is always making new ones! Frankly they should give up on what they've already lost...They should ditch Swing for GTK bindings, opens source Netbeans [to merge it into Eclipse] and cull any other "extraneous" stuff they've got in the closet.
The idea of the "Core" Java as Sun proprietary isn't really that far fetched...perhaps it would actually be better for the language. After all, even Linux has a pseudo-owner in Linus & GNU in RMS. It's not like people can't take the stuff and do what they want with it, but most of the OSS projects have fairly strong individual or corperate leadership...It helps keep things moving! If Sun was to give up control [or rather follow the users!] over some things they would appear much more responsive. They don't necessaraly have to give up the "gems" to satisfy the public.
It's a management style straight out of the 1920's. Basically they start off yelling so that you can't make any suggestions of a "reasonable" comeback to them. The last company I was at had 3 of the 6 managers & the company owner that did much the same thing. They'd walk up to random people and say totally out of line stuff...stuff you couldn't even respond to even if it was totally wrong. But I suppose that it makes everybody "insubordinate" because eventually everybody will stop caring about their jobs and mouth off back and justifies their asshole behavior...
Actually, in your case the HR department covered the companiy's butt pretty well. By adding the cool down time, they could at least claim they "made an effort" and that you "just didn't work out" rather than being shouted out of the office.
They got no problems with getting the "wrong" guy over there. [hint: if they got you, you weren't the wrong guy...get it.] Anyway, if they do get a couple of wrong people it just goes to show the rest that they shouldn't have gone "where bad people go"...shame on them.
Note that most american police officers, political leaders, and executives feel much the same way... that's what should really scare you!
MS has a monopoly, it's not fair for them to use funds from that monopoly to develop products that put other people out of business. When IE came out it cost $40 to get seperately. Billy decided MS needed to conquer that new internet thing so he dropped the price to free AND included it with window....also they contractually punished other companies for even including non MS icons on the desktop.
In a lot of ways anti-trust is trying to address the issue of too much wealth as a barrier to a free market. It's not unfair for MS to necessaraly HAVE the monoploy on desktop OSes. The problem is that they make 80% profit from sales!!! Is it fair for them to take their 80% profit and use it to take the paychecks from guys simply trying to pay the mortgage? What they really need to do is force MS to seperate accounting from the core OS and Office and everything else. Then they need to force MS to pay those profits as dividends to to the rightfull owners of the company...the stockholders. That would force MS to develop only the new products they can make money on seperately. This is a case where the wall street brokers need correcting because they are making a mess of the economy trying to immitate MS accounting practices and marketing shell games. Companies like Enron were wildly rewarded when they tried MS style marketing and accounting...only to fall flat because unlike MS their products involve actual natural resources and people Dying....so the jig was up more quickly.
Frankly what the courts need to do right now is simply waylay MS for 2-5 years. Ideally, they should get the cash out of bill's hands even if they have to reward the stockholders to do it. MS is just about to drop the ball...we just need somebody big enough to give them a push!
nope, surface mount parts still use tin-lead solder! so they had to work with not lead solder...not a fun process at all. it messes with all the reflow times and temps. means the engineers have to go back and refigure everthing about their assembly lines! Not fun when your already running on razor thin margins to begin with.
both the EU and US DOD have lead free mandates comming up very quickly. I know 3 years ago when I worked at an electronics contract manufacture it was starting to be a hot topic in the press. It's a huge achivement to finally see a lead free commercial product of any type! All of the lead free alternatives dramatically reduce the solderability of parts...everything takes tighter manfacturing controls. It's a manufacturing productivity and quality nightmare. Not to mention purchasing getting passives [resistors, capacitors, & connectors] that are also tinned with lead free solder!
but they can't do that TOMMORROW! that's the point, if this goes thru and employers try cramming new contracts, then that's the solution! For a matter of fact, that would be a good thing to casually discuss over the watercooler in earshot of the boss. The only way "professional" workers will deal with this is to work together...
you can use online to get a good gage of what your pay would be given your skills. Get online and look at the offered salaries for your area in your field. Look at your ideal job, then at the ones your actually qualified for.
Keep your eye on the ball is more important than the actual pay. Figure out what experience you need for the $80k job and go after it. When your starting out you can take "subaverage" pay only if it compliments your experience.
Also feel out the employers for what they REALLY want you to do. That's a better indication of pay expectations. Often if the pay expectation is too low then the employers expectation are also too low and you won't be happy. The school thing sounds like a good measure...after all you paid a lot of money to be part of [unoffically] the club. somewhere out there is somebody looking for your social and economic experience...often moreso than than your "paper" schooling...they're looking for somebody to fit their work culture. If the pay is drastically too low...and you've already done your homework for what is fair they keep moving..you won't get what you REALLY want.
remember too, that typically you won't be at a first job very long, 5 years max. Most important is to show you gained responsibility and experiences other people want for the NEXT job...if you find your not getting it GET OUT SOON! Otherwise you've wasted your best earning years being somebody's body and not having a career...and future employeers will look at you like a schmuck!
because when the shakdown happens business will grow up about IT and start managing it properly. Right now it's all about marketing software and hotshot programmers. management has become accustom to throwing time at the problem rather than...well...managing the problems. Sooner or later India will get more expensive, and americans will be so used to the enforced time delay planning that they'll offer the same level of planning to local contractors who will in typical american fashion kick the pants off the competition.
but things have to get worse before they'll get better. The management has to be allowed to take the wrong course...and to suffer some big financial losses in the process!!!
I think IT will become more like accounting or law or plumbing & electricians...as the threats of viruses and security issues become greater there will be need for professional certifications to move above help desk or code monkey. Typically that orgainization dolling out the licenses is the one that can raise wages thru better marketing type skills than outright strikes and such.
Frankly, it's a place OSS can work for the industry, buy taking the control out of hands of manufactured solutions and back to crafted ones...look how well plumbers still do. even though anybody can buy the parts & tools for plumbing a whole house for under $1000 bucks it still takes a competent person to put it all together and make it work...same is true of IT in very many ways...and the pipes always need fixed because people always keep "using"!
no, many industries rely on 60 hour weeks. over my time working, job before last I averaged 48 hours over 4 years, last job I averaged 50 with more than 15 60+ weeks until I lost count. That particular employer worked everybody OT or laid off, no simply 40 hour weeks!
Many industries like the auto parts makers or nursing or software demand 60+ hours every week and often "pay off" vacations...those are the ones crying to the labor board because they are constantly getting sued for breaking the current LAWS!
On the other hand I always found that "occasional" extra item to be needed almost everyday... you know at 15 minutes before time to leave those "emergencies" come up you have to have "tonite"...get's to be it's own kind of abuse.
Slashdot Mirror
Also, DAs make a practice of using non-illegal pictures to prosecute you too...so the jury thinks your REALLY bad. That is a much bigger problem!!! I'm sure Goat.cx ends up LOTS of times before these juries even though it's not illegal... eyeball melting, but not illegal... It's too bad there's not better legal representation for this type of stuff as legitimate, law complying porn shouldn't be even admisible in court... It's Judical malpractice for judges to even allow it as evidence!!!
Enter the web and something like Mozilla. In a corperate environment database apps are all the rage. Web programming neatly fits the design models of something like Cobol or RPG. We've come full circle so we might as well enjoy it! Most internal apps at most companies aren't worth being "professionally done" What matters more is that the data is pulled/dumped to a centeral server, it can be created quickly, and it can be modified quickly and rolled back out again the same day. That's why there's so much Cobol and RPG still out there...not because it's best, but it gets stuff done right now...and is really easy to version control. Like I said before, a Mozilla "application" would work much the same way only prettier!
As far as design rules that has nothing to do with being in mozilla or not...Old, new it really doesn't matter when it comes to making horrible design...that's another problem entirely!!
But the guy wants it to phone home...locking it up too tight means that the theives will just get pissed and break it rather than connect to the internet. typically away from major cities and collages and nobody really knows how to hack back into a mac... Espically with a Mac, you'd want them to easily get on. sure, you should have your data locked up, but most theives are looking for a quick windows laptop score...once they find out it doesn't "work" they'll hawk it or toss it.
Hence the guy is here. Trying to figure out a technological work-around so they can think ahead for their jobs and avoid impending vendor lockin. Even when the management doesn't care about it!
Get it, this is REAL IT! he's got no say, but he's the computer guy...so he's gotta keep it up cause it's his JOB! Of course you could require all the departments to keep their own servers...but then they won't keep up licensing, virus scanning, spybots and all the other nasties of managing a company network...so again, you HAVE to support them all yourself. that's life in IT...they want your opinion and help, but won't take your advice to litterally save the company!!!
The more interesting thing is that while MS has a monopoly they can't gaurantee to sell MORE copies..and that's what's necessary for all of their "world domination" plans. All of their future business plans for DRM, sharepoint, WinFS all REQUIRE people to have the yet-to-be-released windows!!! Meanwhile, they'll have to keep selling XP... meaning that later they'll HAVE to give away most of the critical [expensive!] upgrades simply to have enough installed base
Bill understands his "business" perfectly! There's more precieved customer "value" in getting a ripped copy of an expensive title than paying to get a cheaper tool that meets your needs...That's the whole reasoning for Educational discounts as well. That way there will NEVER BE market for software until MS says there is!! Even Linux "free-as-in-speech" can't compete with MS "free-as-in-cake" price! People are already being trained to be consumers of MS products rather than cocreaters of OSS type software...
The real profit is that Bill can start collecting REAL money from business that have to have connections or preasence in "civilized" countries. Items like this...limiting access to patches and such...with more tools comming soon to limit any unauthorized windows boxes...prepare the way to make them pay when the time comes. After all, what multinational is going to allow UNPATCHED machines on their international corperate network? See, MS will get the money! Over here we already pay because the BSA has beat up our empolyers, schools, churches, clubs, etc. or face stiff fines...we aren't noticing the barriers they are putting up. Look at XP, it would appear that the majority of installs are legit! that's a huge achievement from even 3 years ago. Once the asians have to connect to our networks, the mechanisms are already in place to make them pay or else!
They attempted to sue an ENTIRE INDUSTRY of huge companies....It's not so much collusion as a general feeling of NEVER doing business with them again!!!
Funny thing is that Most of the operations are over there BECAUSE those states don't enforce common employment/contractual provisions that we do back east! Silicon Valley exists because manufacturing/technical labor law is so liberal that just about anybody can jump ship and take whatever IP they want out the door at any time...more often than not with minimal or no concequence...look at how often CEO's and programmer jump ships over there. Yet the entertainment industry follows NONE of those rules!!!! The Nationwide list of "entertainment" exceptions is fantastic...in almost every state they're allowed to pay sub-minimum wages and enforce contractual terms not allowed in any other profession. But CA is by far the worst double standard... What other state will consider "amnesty" for illegal workers but enforce multi-year record contracts even when the labels won't publish!!!
One thing that needs to happen is to move the center of both the hi-tech industry and entertainment to the midwest...The issues with superpowerful companies have already been dealt with over here! Remember, It's not Fair laws that they want...they want to keep the UNFAIR ones in THEIR favor...and claim Fair and balanced laws are not "Standard Industry Practice"!!!
Of course if they DID do that it would be A LOT easier for guys like Lessing to prove their cases against long term copyrights! You'd find in 50 years that all the heirs to royalties would be convinently "lost" and the companies would start keeping tons of extra royalties. Then you'd have real numbers to use against them that they really don't pay artists "forever" for their rights...so they keep up the accounting as a "show" of "good faith" that artist are getting a whole lot.
Dirty little secret: often you simply get another Whole new jewelcase too...i.e. including a new CD-Key!!!
It's definately a reasonable price about 60% of a MS solution.
The key thing RH needs to be doing is answering a lot of the questions brought up at places like this. We're the people who are gonna choose or not choose RH over something else...we're the ones who gotta stake our jobs on them doing it right!!! What they've added is basicly "cheap" desktops to go with their enterprise servers. I'd like to hear more about the nitty-gritty of the support tools they've for the desktops...remote management, remote control, remote software install, maintenance and license management...just to start. There's a lot of stuff you can "do" with windows [all those added features] that most companies can't touch because they add another $200 per seat! If RH started including that type of stuff it could sell a great many people on switching over...better yet if they could get real world examples of a full RH system and show the improved worker productivity and reduced downtime of the system....and even better....show IT people leaving work at 5!
He's already check out most of the stuff on the disk as redistributable. It's been out for over a year now. Several companies have made exceptions so he can put the stuff on the disk and have it be redistributable. Note, Knoppix isn't about being "pure" OSS. It's meant to work and show off how good Linux can be... not turn everything on the disk into OSS. Klaus has banged on a lot of doors to get cool stuff put on the disk. Hint: Tell your favorite packages [flash, Nvidia drivers, etc] to get on board!!!!
Right now "Offical Sun" Java suffers from far too much feature creep for newbies or average users. There are too many editors, graphics apis, and program structure models....and it seems Sun is always making new ones! Frankly they should give up on what they've already lost...They should ditch Swing for GTK bindings, opens source Netbeans [to merge it into Eclipse] and cull any other "extraneous" stuff they've got in the closet.
The idea of the "Core" Java as Sun proprietary isn't really that far fetched...perhaps it would actually be better for the language. After all, even Linux has a pseudo-owner in Linus & GNU in RMS. It's not like people can't take the stuff and do what they want with it, but most of the OSS projects have fairly strong individual or corperate leadership...It helps keep things moving! If Sun was to give up control [or rather follow the users!] over some things they would appear much more responsive. They don't necessaraly have to give up the "gems" to satisfy the public.
Actually, in your case the HR department covered the companiy's butt pretty well. By adding the cool down time, they could at least claim they "made an effort" and that you "just didn't work out" rather than being shouted out of the office.
Note that most american police officers, political leaders, and executives feel much the same way... that's what should really scare you!
In a lot of ways anti-trust is trying to address the issue of too much wealth as a barrier to a free market. It's not unfair for MS to necessaraly HAVE the monoploy on desktop OSes. The problem is that they make 80% profit from sales!!! Is it fair for them to take their 80% profit and use it to take the paychecks from guys simply trying to pay the mortgage? What they really need to do is force MS to seperate accounting from the core OS and Office and everything else. Then they need to force MS to pay those profits as dividends to to the rightfull owners of the company...the stockholders. That would force MS to develop only the new products they can make money on seperately. This is a case where the wall street brokers need correcting because they are making a mess of the economy trying to immitate MS accounting practices and marketing shell games. Companies like Enron were wildly rewarded when they tried MS style marketing and accounting...only to fall flat because unlike MS their products involve actual natural resources and people Dying....so the jig was up more quickly.
Frankly what the courts need to do right now is simply waylay MS for 2-5 years. Ideally, they should get the cash out of bill's hands even if they have to reward the stockholders to do it. MS is just about to drop the ball...we just need somebody big enough to give them a push!
nope, surface mount parts still use tin-lead solder! so they had to work with not lead solder...not a fun process at all. it messes with all the reflow times and temps. means the engineers have to go back and refigure everthing about their assembly lines! Not fun when your already running on razor thin margins to begin with.
good job!
but they can't do that TOMMORROW! that's the point, if this goes thru and employers try cramming new contracts, then that's the solution! For a matter of fact, that would be a good thing to casually discuss over the watercooler in earshot of the boss. The only way "professional" workers will deal with this is to work together...
Keep your eye on the ball is more important than the actual pay. Figure out what experience you need for the $80k job and go after it. When your starting out you can take "subaverage" pay only if it compliments your experience.
Also feel out the employers for what they REALLY want you to do. That's a better indication of pay expectations. Often if the pay expectation is too low then the employers expectation are also too low and you won't be happy. The school thing sounds like a good measure...after all you paid a lot of money to be part of [unoffically] the club. somewhere out there is somebody looking for your social and economic experience...often moreso than than your "paper" schooling...they're looking for somebody to fit their work culture. If the pay is drastically too low...and you've already done your homework for what is fair they keep moving..you won't get what you REALLY want.
remember too, that typically you won't be at a first job very long, 5 years max. Most important is to show you gained responsibility and experiences other people want for the NEXT job...if you find your not getting it GET OUT SOON! Otherwise you've wasted your best earning years being somebody's body and not having a career...and future employeers will look at you like a schmuck!
but things have to get worse before they'll get better. The management has to be allowed to take the wrong course...and to suffer some big financial losses in the process!!!
Frankly, it's a place OSS can work for the industry, buy taking the control out of hands of manufactured solutions and back to crafted ones...look how well plumbers still do. even though anybody can buy the parts & tools for plumbing a whole house for under $1000 bucks it still takes a competent person to put it all together and make it work...same is true of IT in very many ways...and the pipes always need fixed because people always keep "using"!
Many industries like the auto parts makers or nursing or software demand 60+ hours every week and often "pay off" vacations...those are the ones crying to the labor board because they are constantly getting sued for breaking the current LAWS!
On the other hand I always found that "occasional" extra item to be needed almost everyday... you know at 15 minutes before time to leave those "emergencies" come up you have to have "tonite"...get's to be it's own kind of abuse.