Slashdot Mirror
China Plans Surveillance System for Internet Cafes
nasty writes "According to Interfax China, China will install a special surveillance system in order to prevent 'unhealthy information and websites'. All internet cafes in China will have installed the new system by the end of 2004. This according to China's Ministry of Culture (MOC). The system requires the customers personal information, such as name, age, and their national citizen identification number, before they are allowed to log onto the Internet." Reader Dr.Hair submits another blurb about the system.
No matter what they try to do they will eventually fail to contain the information they are frightened of.
The RIAA and MPAA have suggested the same be done in the US to save starving movie and music artists from piracy..
No more Chinese/Korean kids dying while playing Counterstrike.
Perhaps an anonymous proxy could be set up and funded by the US, as it has in Iran.
Linux: Free if your time is worthless.
Finally! The end of MSG.com!
Maybe we'll get lucky and these systems will find people who are using the internet cafe's to spam the hell out of the world.
I hope that particular "unhealthy internet" usage results in the standard "cranial ventilation" punishment...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
... innovation.
It seems that a lot of people around the globe have worked hard to design proxies that get around existing systems which governments use to restrict their citizens' access to information on the internet.
IMHO, this new piece of software will just lead to a new breed of web proxy, and until China either cuts off net use entirely or has a massive change in government policy, it's going to be a continuation of the government vs. infolibertarian game of "build the better mousetrap". Just now, instead of bypassing and improving filters, it'll be about tracking and masking data...
"It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." -- Zork
Those damn Chinese, they stole this idea like all the other IP they steal -
This was actually a joint recommendation of the DOJ, Ashcroft, and the *AA's. It is being boiler plating to State legislatures during lavish liquor and hooker parties...
US officals say plan is "another evil of communism"...they went on to defend a similar measure to for Americans called Ashcr-o-ware that would weed out terrorists (ie file sharers and pot dealers)... wouldnt surpise me, Orwell was only 20 years off.
I think at Kinko's (office services chain), you can just pay cash and get online. Some libraries are like that as well. An option (even if it's pay) for totally anonymous internet is important if one values privacy.
-I am an elective eunuch.
What do you expect from a totalitarian government?
I am surprised that they haven't done that before...
what I also don't understand is why 'democratic' world has such a great trade relations with totalitarian China?...
then again two party system is only one step to totalitarism
somewhat irrelevant but interesting quote from today NYTimes editorial: "we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield." That's from George Orwell's 1946 essay "In Front of Your Nose."
Just because I don't care, it doesn't mean I don't understand. Homer J. Simpson
Are camaras going to be involved? Sure, log user info and then log the pages they visit. Have some government agency sit there and randomly check sites visited. Develop two lists "acceptable" to shorten the list of sites checked and "unacceptable" to automatically flag users visiting known unacceptable sites. Is this what they are talking about?
Don't get me wrong, the idea scares the heck out of me, I'm just curious exactly how they plan on implementing the system.
~~Guildencranz
Penguin Trivia #46: Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were. -- Chicago Reader 10/15/82
This obviously can seem as a nice attempt to provide more security to the inet, but is it in reality one more proof china shows clear signs of communist fascism?
Remind all the censoring china did and does.
As most of us know, this is not an incident unique to China. Increasing surveillance is happening on a global scale. And most people seem not to care, which is actually the most scary part.
How long until we get telescreens?
Name, age, and national ID number?! Unless they have some kind of picture ID with a magnetic strip on the back which has to be inserted into a computer, after the photo has been checked by an official, how are they going to keep people who have somehow gotten hold of someone else's name, age, and ID number, from using that information when they log on?
Pity the poor bastard who has to explain to the chinese authorities that it wasn't he who was reading Slashdot at the local cafe, but an impostor.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Isn't it ironic that China's Ministry of Culture has the purpose of restricting culture? Like Orwell's Ministry of Truth, which had the sole purpose of changing history.
[Please sign here]
It's probably not just me, but doesn't it seems to me that the Ministry of Culture should probably be called the Ministry of Truth (or MiniTruth for short)???
I have 1 million monkeys on a million year contract to make me a better sig.
Hi their, just in case things go sidewise as it were I have put up a mirror.8 496&req= is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_2/ d =10742 is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_2/
The mirror of http://www.interfax.com/com?item=Chin&pg=0&id=571
The mirror of http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parenti
Note to Mods: When I post mirrors, it's a best guess. I don't know for certain whether or not the site will go down!
My first reaction to this was pure disgust. Then I thought of all the censorship software that China has employed in the past and the net nanny software installed in American libraries. People have always found a way around it.
I'm sure that some clever individuals will find a way to get around this Orwellian nonsense in no time.
Also, with the millions and millions of people using the Internet in China, that's a lot of data being generated on what people are doing. How would they parse data of this magnitude? Look for the names of "naughty" websites? Doesn't the Great Firewall already block those?
Maybe they are not really monitoring people very much, but just trying to inspire fear and obedience with the "Big Brother is watching" bit.
Information tends to be easily spread, and tends to leak from even the most secure of places. This might slow down the spread of undesirable information, but won't stop it.
A friend went to China about 2 years ago to teach English as a seond language to Chinese students. It was a nice little gig, he had to pay for airfare and food, but got free accomodations. It was also a program designed for people that don't speak Chinese. The idea was to teach kids who already knew a bulk of english how to use pronunciation.
Anyway, he kept in touch with me and other people through the use of internet cafes, so we talked fairly often. Then a few days went by where he wasn't logging on. It turns out government monitors had flagged his usage because he had been visitng a lot of American web sites. He told me he woke up one moring with AK-47's pointed at his face and was taken to a local precinct.
A rep from the agency he was working for had explained the sitation to the police, but from there on he was forced to fill out paperwork outlining his planned usage activities on the terminals.
And for a funny tidbit, he didn't realize the massage parlors in the city he worked were of the "full release" variety.
It's funny how us westerners get all uptight about China choice to sensor information from their population. Would you be shocked to discover that in the UK, you could get in big trouble trying to import comic books due to their laws on graphic violence. It is really so shocking that China considers some content on the net to be unacceptable?
While I'm not for censorship, is it really that shocking that a country with over 2 billion people is taking it upon it selfs to censor incomming information in the same way other countries have done with physical media for years?
Recently one of our finacial analysts went to China to report on an upcoming Chinese company that our company was looking to institutionally invest in.
Our super-prima-donna-annoying-user employee put in about thrity help desk requests due to not being able to email, surf the web, or VPN from her hotel room in China. We had to explain to her about the Communist's "Great Firewall of China" and how they block/inspect/proxy damn near everything.
So believe it or not this story is more of a suprise that this type of "surveillance" is NOT already in place.
msg.com
I lived in China for six months last year teaching English at a University. What I found particularly amazing, was that the culture has taught people not to question things.
There has to be a double-standard there. What good would a PhD in the sciences be from a Chinese university?
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
"What I found particularly amazing, was that the culture has taught people not to question things."
I'm not sure we can chalk that up to Chinese culture per se as much as decades of brutal repression of dissidents who dared question authority.
I realize history vs. culture is not a clean distinction to make, but thought it might be worth clarifying that many have dared to speak out. Those prone to do so were and continue to be dealt with harshly.
Those not imprisoned learn to shut up. Yet even today, knowing the penalties and risks, some still continue to protest.
Giving the US ideas.
A live Linux CDs, like Knoppix, will become popular in China. Opps the computer rebooted.
Customers personal information, such as name, age, and their national citizen identification number, before they are allowed to log onto the Internet.
If only, we could have that here. Hold on. I have to pay for internet access. They usually want my name and some other identifying infomation such as address. I don't tend to use internet cafes though. I'm speaking of home internet. Why shouldn't they be required to write their name, age, and drivers license number here? What if the FBI came knocking on the door with printouts and said we know the guy that was here 2 nights ago at this IP and computer name is planning a bombing we need all the info. you have on him, now! It would be useful if you could provide a Name and Address.
I don't think that it should be required myself. I do believe that it will be required in libraries to "prevent minors" from viewing "adult content."
If Ashcroft thinks along those lines, a regulation here or there in licensing could bring it about with out any troublesome laws.
Remember, you only have to think around those pesky laws if you don't argee with them.
In Communist China, the Web browses you.
But the difference is decreasing. Politicians everywhere want power over ordinary people. That's why they became politicians.
This story is no big deal. It's up to the Chinese to fight for their own freedom. We've proved in the last few years that we can't even preserve our own freedoms. We should fight for those before pointing the finger at China.
In Communist China the internet searches YOU!
Or rather than monitor their citizens' Net activity, the Chinese government could take a cue from the Sinclair Broadcast Group and simply shut off the flow of all that "unhealthy" information.
Somebody Elses Problem, frankly.
.... well, that's a different story.
I've been to China many times, Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen and HongKong (before and after it was given back)
I must say that for the most part they do things just like we do.
I mean, you can get a bottle of Corona at the bars in Beijing (except they put lemon it in rather that lime) you get can a big mac, kentucky fried chicking and starbucks.
One poster mentioned that people are conditioned to believe what they are told, I think this is a valid observation. I once was driven around by a girl from the office in Beijing, she took me to a bunch of government owned jade shops, in government owned taxi cabs. When I asked about the private owned cabs and jade shops, she told me bluntly that since they are not owned by the government they were lower quality.
This raised my eyebrows, as you can just can't equate a quality product with government.
The hotels mostly have internet access, high speed. There is a little note next to the hook up that warns you to be careful surfing the web and to stay away from material considered harmful by the goverment.
How would I fix it ?
I'm not sure anything is wrong. Actually, here in the US our websites are routinely blocked by agencies that are not even govermental (see Google, search pages removed due to DMCA requests).
I'm more worried that as a China Citizen you cannot leave the country (or go near the borders) without special permission. Everywhere you look there are little government officials in uniform asking questions. For the most part I ignore them, they generally leave foriengners well alone, but my buddies at the local office treat them as a layer of red tape.
One guy wanted to photocopy my passport, no way Jose ! And if you think that rustly ol' 38 scares me, let me tell you that this is not the first time someone pointed a gun at me. I was in india once and
If the Chinese are so obedient then why would their government feel the need to monitor them so obsessively? Sounds like they aren't so sheep-like after all.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
China outsources alot of its technical censorship solutions to America. We're talking about Chinese rights, and there's profits to be had. Liberty and Justice for Us.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
See, here in America our government at least has respect enough for us to cover these types of things up, and not let them out in the news.
Somebody had to keep them people under control. Unregulated internet access is the bane of all existance. Dont they have something more important to take care of like baby killing or something?
These people have nothing to worry about, they are doing nothing wrong so none of this matters.
Everyone should have a number, it's for your own safety. We wouldn't want you to get lost.
My Chinese father has lived in the west for decades; this hasn't changed his opinions about authority and respect. I can attest to the fact that Chinese culture is a patriarchal culture of not questioning.
There are clear lines of authority in Chinese culture, and to attempt to question these is to dishonor not your family (perhaps by extension), not your nation, but yourself.
There is nothing more shameful in Chinese culture than questioning the wisdom of elders. Elders are not only generational (i.e. grandfather -> father -> son) but also hierarchical (national government -> local government -> individual). To question authority is to show that you have no regard for your family, your citizenship, your fellow man... it is to show, in some sense, that you are a kind of sociopath.
Even in the west, even disagreeing with government policies in democratic nations, my father feels that it is embarrassing and dishonorable to complain too loudly about what government does, because government is, after all, government--the embodiment of the collective. Activism, for him, is certainly sociopathic behavior of the most base kind, disrespectful to fellow citizens.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
And this is different from China's SOP how? No surprise here. It's the ChiComms doing what they do best. . .
Collecting this information will simply aid the police when investigating criminals and no law abiding persons will be bothered. You Libertarians always make a big fuss when simple and practical measures are taken to ensure the safety of citizens. I think we can rest assured that only criminals are the ones that need to be concerned about this.
You know who we're talking about, criminals, those evil doers that break whatever arbitrary rules that we in the party come up with designed to perpetuate and protect our worthless jobs and meaningless lives. But don't worry, we'll take care of things for you.
Is this really a surprise? Once the Chinese figured out people outside China get to....think for themselves there would be a revolution. Communism is doing what it does best, keep the working class working and the administration keeping the working class ignorant.
Thats a pretty sad attempt at pretending to chineese LOL ;)
This program was made possible by a grant from the Ultra-Humanite, and viewers like you.
What good would a PhD in the sciences be from a Chinese university?
You must have not been to US colleges in the last 10 years or so. Probably up to half of all Masters and PhD's for the sciences and engineering in all top US colleges and universities (and the not so top ones) go to students from China (and the other half mostly to India and Russia). These folks have enough academic acumin to turn out your lights - they don't know the meaning of "hard work."
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
"I can attest to the fact that Chinese culture is a patriarchal culture of not questioning. "
And yet we have those who stood up at Tiananmen Square. The younger generations are waking up.
I'm just saying we can't paint the Chinese population as universally passive in the face of authority. Things are changing, else the Chinese government wouldn't be so worried.
This is the same Orwellian Crap that Stalinist Bush Regime is forcing on the Pakistanis.
Leave it to the Bushies to condemn the Chinese for what they're doing themselves and forcing their flunkies to do as well.
We have it, why shouldnt they?
Censorship is good says George W Bush, it stop's the anti american Terrorists. Right?
So why should China be any different, they want censorship and we have no right to tell them its wrong when we are doing the same thing. We log and tap every phone due to the patriot act.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
It's simple, really. People in China don't really give a damn about who's in charge anymore, since the new state religion is money and capitalism. And the folks currently in charge certainly aren't getting too much into the way of people making a quick buck (or yuan) here and there. To get rich is to be glorious.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Providing your National ID card number and name has been required in mainland China internet cafes since at least 1998.
That you can buy a new ID card for about RMB 100 (about US$ 12) means that many Chinese have no qualms about handing over their ID numbers!
A dream is good. A plan is better.
I'm not sure cultural factors are primary here. Yes, there is a long heritage of collective responsibility, deference to elders and clan leaders, the paternalist state, etc. But do recall that the current regime has engaged in widespread, politically-motivated murder and torture.
The Party regards a form of collective spiritual and physical exercise as a political threat and have imprisoned and tortured its followers. It is within the living memory of most Chinese that the universities were emptied and intellectuals, professors and students forced to undergo *political re-education* on collective farms and forced-labor camps. Millions of Chinese have died for their political views (even the mere potential for dissenting views) in the last sixty years.
Which is why the current appropriation of the slogan *Let a thousand flowers bloom* sticks in my craw so. Besides being a mis-translation, this slogan of the early days of the cultural revolution was not an invitation to voice new ideas or question established norms, but bait to lure dissenting elements into the open. It is like saying *arbeit macht frei.* It may or may not be so, but to use the phrase in any but a historical context would be deeply offensive to many, even today. That such a reaction is not invited by the Chinese phrase is a testament to Western cultural astigmatism.
illegitimii non ingravare
We all know that China has one of the worlds lowest crime rates. So perhaps they do respect authority.
This is good and this is bad, its good because there's less wars, less terrorism, less crime. It's bad because there's less freedom.
Overall though the USA is no better, people at work never question authority. Everyone is anti government pro Boss, we kiss our bosses ass here and never question the word of the great boss at our job.
So in a way, the USA in the corporate world is no better when it comes to authority than China. I've never been pro authority, which is why I hated school and I can't stand the corporate world.
But there generally are two kinds of people, the ones who accept authority and the ones who can't. Generally the people who can't have a much harder time than the people who can, are more likely to drop out, or end up in prison.
It's not a cultural thing, its human nature for some people to respect authority and others not. In China however rebelling isn't an option because deviance is an American ideal. The rebels in China are quickly killed. Rebels in the USA are just locked in jail and then released after a while.
If the Black Panthers were hung, shot and murdered on national TV live, instead of just locked in jail people would think twice about challenging the government.
Perhaps this is why the Waco incident was on live TV.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Pretty soon, nobody will be able to surf annonymously in China anywhere, not just the internet cafes.
How long before they start limiting access to only government created and maintained web sites?
They might as well block off the harbors and build another Great Wall to keep out the rest of the world...again
Probably up to half of all Masters and PhD's for the sciences and engineering in all top US colleges and universities (and the not so top ones) go to students from China (and the other half mostly to India and Russia). These folks have enough academic acumin to turn out your lights - they don't know the meaning of "hard work."
What's that got to do with a Chinese university with a PhD program? specifically, how is is this relevant to a commentary on a culture of blind acceptance, except as a way of devaluing US PhDs as well?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
... from the situation in the good ole USA where ISPs are required to provide your Identity upon demand by the FBI, NSA etc. ?
Are there any US companies involved in this? Weren't there some companies in an article last year who were helping the Chinese develop software to aid in censorship over the Internet?
SELECT (*) FROM PRISONERS
WHERE "TORTURE" = YES AND
"DEADYET" = NO AND
"PAINLEVELBEFOREPASSINGOUT" > 7
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
... in China, where there are no guaranteed freedoms, surveillance will be in situ, but here in the Land of the Free we guarantee the freedom of access but encourage surreptitious surveillance?
Not sure which is more unhealthy, but I can tell which is more honest.
Who's bashing China? I'm bashing the Party. I don't get my undies in a wad when people bad-mouth the Bush Administration, and not just because I agree with them.
illegitimii non ingravare
What I really wonder is what the government is looking for. I doubt that they're looking for the guy on MSN who says "[insert government member here] suxors!" so much as the activists actually looking to strongly undermine the government. Those spreading news that the government doesn't want public (failures such as in the SARS case, human rights issues) are probably also under scrutiny.
How about ethical issues. Do they care if you view pr0n? Do they care if you post to slashdot? What sets the radar off?
HEY RKZ,c id=8139 351
What's the deal with stealing my post VERBATIM from January 30th?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=94950&
I'm reasonably sure this is the deffinition of Karma Whore
What if they used anonymous surfing software like Primedius, or Anonymizer, could they still be tracked?
What I found particularly amazing, was that the culture has taught people not to question things. Even my PhD students largely accepted whatever was told to them. So even though there may have been forums online for them to learn about political dissent, most wouldn't particularly have been interested (a few seemed more aware than most, but only a very few).
Sounds a lot like the USA as well. Most people are more than happy to believe anything the Person In Power tells them to believe.
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
Probably too afraid to say anything in class. Maybe they talk in whispers like in the SF novels.
Expect Freedom.
Even my PhD students largely accepted whatever was told to them.
I used to be a professor at a lousy university too. Only mine was in Texas.
I'm surprised this one hasn't got modded Troll yet. Oh well, I'll bite...
No, it's not shocking at all. Unfortunately, this is what we can fully expect from an oppressive, non-democratic government. It also tells us Westerners the kinds of things to watch out for in our own governments -- there but for the grace of God, and all. It seems outrageous to us now, but liberty has to be continually guarded and fought for, again and again, because we can be assured of the continued existance of dictators and wannabe dictators on both ends of the political spectrum. Someday in the near future, that news article could be about us.
The UK is more restrictive in many ways than the US (no right to bear arms, and a scant two centuries ago insulting the king could cost you your head, if I remember correctly). However, it had a strong concept of freedom and independence which was inherited by the first American colonists, who "fixed" many of the abuses of the English system that existed at the time, in the Constitution. Hence the Bill of Rights, separation of Church and State, division of power among three major bodies...lack of a king...etc.
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
I'm not sure we can chalk that up to Chinese culture per se as much as decades of brutal repression of dissidents who dared question authority.
Are you saying that acquiescence to state control isn't a major charasteristic of the "modern" Chinese culture? Just as it has been under basically every emperor even before Confucius gave his name for that relationship between the individual and the state? The brief era of the republic in 1911-1949 provided the mainland chinese intellectuals a brief opportunity to debate about the state of their state (no real changes could be implemented thanks to warlordism, the civil war against Mao's communist and the Japanese invasion), but the masses have never been taught or even allowed to "question things" regarding the existing hierarchies. Even the village level "democratic" elections of today are strictly supervised and controlled by the Party.
Interestingly the (confucian?) tendency towards civil obedience (incl. family and community hierarchies) remains strong even in the Chinese communities outside the mainland China, like in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore.
The oppression by the communist party since 1949 has clearly strengthened the cultural trait of acquiescence - the Tiananmen massacre in 1989 was one such showcase event to remind the chinese populace not to get too cocky about their civil rights - but it has been part of the culture nevertheless.
All Chinese are taught about their history that as long as there are no uprisings against the single ruler, however bad that ruler may be, there won't be a civil war which could be even worse. The communists never saw the irony in adopting this same mantra after their own use of the civil war to seize power from the republic. Of course, since simply discussing about a civil war is dangerous territory, the Party tends to resort to xenophobia which suits their purposes much better.
Finally, I do realize that there is increasing interest in liberal thinking and self-expression in certain corners of urban China and especially among the young, but all that is kept far from the cultural mainstream and these efforts by the state at tightening the control of the internet is just natural since the Party intends to keep things that way. There will be crackdown after crackdown until the Party will eventually implode, and that will most likely happen because of rampant corruption and be driven by the desperately poor peasant masses watching the merchants and their Party cronies getting obscenely rich. That's another irony taught by the more recent chinese history that the current class of looting party cadres seem to have forgotten.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
maybe not super-uber-funny, but definately not a Troll !
Man. That was a great laugh. Thanks, and keep up the good work.
...fewer voted for him than for his opponent, yet he still "won" the election of 2000; as he will the next election, whether anybody at all votes for him or not.
Fare thee well Constitution, we hardly knew ye...!
I don't believe that for a second. Want a good example, take Tianmen Square, the students were not just protesting by themselves, they had huge amount of support from the local population.
The parent post is not only wrong but racist, painting a very broad picture using one person as an example. I cannot believe that this was modded Insightful!
...satellite-based access. Then the UAE has no control.
There's always a way around, my friend. Always.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Riight, we believe you...
Build one, I dares ya!
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Don't forget that most US institutions are going the same route. Major corporations have assigned passwords and hold the employee liable for any misconduct using their account regardless of the total lack of security of the underlying system, Windoze. Public terminals at Universities are quickly dissapering, replaced by terminals that require logins and passwords. You can hardly find wifi that does not demand some crappy client software anymore. If you know ways around these things, let me know. I hate having my activity tracked and stored in databases my federal government thinks they have a right to. While you are at it, you might tell me a way to avoid pharmacies and other stores indiscriminately sharing purchase information.
Also, with the millions and millions of people using the Internet in China, that's a lot of data being generated on what people are doing. How would they parse data of this magnitude?
The same way Carnivore parses the data. The burden is placed on the local provider, but control resides with the central authority. All communications are monitored locally for interesting tidbits which can be retrieved later. With enough processors distributed at enough choke points, you can monitor and parse everything.
This might slow down the spread of undesirable information, but won't stop it.
This is not so much about the consumption of information as it is about information creation. No organized opposition can exist if all communications are monitored this way. If you can't exchange information with your peers, you don't know what's true and what is not. If you don't know the truth, you can't tell it. Sure opposition is possible, it's just that much more difficult. Would you be willing to do anything if big brother might be watching? Yeah, they really want to instill the "Big Brother is Watching You" fear. It works and you can afford a little information being out there. Nothing new here. See 1984 again:
You could grasp the mechanics of the Society you lived in, but not its underlying motives. ... [Goldstein's book] The programme it sets forth is nonsense. The secret accumulation of knowledge -- a gradual spread of enlightenment -- ultimately a proletarian rebellion -- the overthrow of the Party. ... You understand well enough how the Party maintains itself in power. ... The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. ... One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. ... power is collective ... power is power over human beings. Over the body but, above all, over the mind. ... 'How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?' Winston thought. 'By making him suffer,' he said. 'Exactly. By making him suffer. ... Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation.
Nasty, eh?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
None of your radical (as in radically lacking in substance) statements are qualified with citations so consider yourself lucky that I'm even honoring you with a reply.
Your first claim that the left is against christian aid organizations is unqualified. I've known almost no lefties to bash christian aid groups. I work as an audio engineer at a church on sundays in fact. A church that of course gives amply to christian charities AND is left leaning (pro separation of church and state, pro-gay, and while the pastor likes to imbue a sense of neutrality in public he generally leans towards the left). I should also mention that I, a lefty atheist with a distaste for religion, have no qualms working for them or contributing to their letter writing campaigns when I feel that it's warranted. Plenty of religious aid groups do lots of good work. Now, if you're talking about whether these groups should recieve government funding then I'd say that they don't. These groups DO push religion, or at least endorse it, something that should be separated from the state.
The straw man arguments you've put up are baseless. The fact of the matter is, I've never heard any prominent voice in the left, save the luanatic fringe, saw any of the things you have said. Put out or get out.
Oh and don't come here with quotes about liberals resenting funding W's faith based initiatives. That kind of thing is blatantly in violation of the separation of church and state.
Photos.
Brave New World? That's a flimsy control scheme. Most people can distinguish between liberty and license. To control people this you you have to make them really stupid and ignorant, but then you don't get anything done.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Somebody needs to tell China that the Patriot Act does not actually apply to them, so they may carry on as normal.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
Exactly!
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Fax machines were very effective back around the time of the T-Square shootings. Caused all kinds of headaches. Email is a huge problem (from the Chinese government POV). But, it's hard to participate in modern business without communications technology. These folks have a lot to say about it. Spamming for Freedom
If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
We can bitch all we want about their human rights abuses, but if we slap some trade embargoes or similar we will get run up by the WTO for it.
China knew that getting WTO approval meant a free hand in how they run roughshod over their own.
Besides, the world already caved in and gave them the Olympics.
Lastly, the best route to flipping China, besides waiting for their soon to be Christian majority to do it, is through trade, capitialism, and information.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Otherwise, canny users will just log in as 'sombeody else' so they can take the heat.
Google Disappears In China They can filter out your proxy as easy as any thing else
If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
Others who may not have that choice always have these choices in addition to the previous one I mentioned:
- Emigrate legally
- Emigrate illegally
- Instigate revolution against the decapitators
Of course, the farther down the list you go, the more side-effects there may be. Your mileage may vary.(What? Do you want unrestricted web access or not?)
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
I wonder which, if any, non-chinese compaines are involed in the creation of this system?
How many would like to go unnoticed in their role as the tool of a burtally repressive government?
hmmm...you don't believe the parent's first hand experience? When were you ever in China? Do you know anybody who lived there? So we are to disregard the parent's primary source and go with your...what...tertiary...quaternary...saw it on tv or read it on slashdot source?
this one in particular:
...Furthermore, the primarily Christian aid associations worldwide bear the overwhelming burden of trying to care for, protect and feed the worlds impoverished.
The international slaughter of Christians continues unabated,
I cut the middle because I am not going to argue about who says what is who's fault.
I would, however, like to see evidence of the other two major claims.
1: some cases of people recently being slaughtered for being Christian and possibly some numbers backing up the statement that they are being singled out.
2: Some evidence that Christian funds are bearing the "overwhelming" burden of charity. And that better be a hell of a lot more than 50% of charities!
Upon re-reading the statement I realize that you weren't saying that christains funds are the overwhelming majority but that poverty is an overwhelming problem. I still would like to see some numbers breaking down the beliefs behind the different funds though.
Fuck you, chink
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I have lived in Shanghai for almost a year and have had DSL access for about 7 months. So far, I have not had a single instance of any type of website blocked and I purchased my connection from China Telecom, the state phone/DSL co. I would agree that this is more of a scare tactic than anything else. In any event, most Chinese truly do not care. They consider gov't intrusions as simply part of life. Should be remembered that there is not much of a philosophy of personal privacy anyway in a country of 1.2 b. From my perspective, it is the rare Chinese (who has not lived abroad) who is interested in anything other than money.
that means no e-comerce, right? That's why the cameras. They want people to feel like they're being watched. It'll keep dissidence from building up in the first place.
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I've been in the middle of China (not the very-nearly-western Shanghai, Beijing, or Shenzhen) for two years now. The patriarchal culture is changing, a little. And the values of questioning authority will hopefully catch on even more- it's a concept that does lead to success in science and business as well as politics. Yesterday I took my students through a review of controversial US/China govt policies. Censorship wasn't even on their list.
we just enjoy complaining as a diversion. When it comes time to do anything that matter (like vote), we just go with the flow. Fact is, as long as people have food and shelter, the generally don't get too uppity, and the rich and powerful can easily control them. If you look at major events in history where the poor bettered their lot, it's always for one of two reasons:
1. A war/plague killed most of the poor off, so they rich had to coddle the survivors.
2. There weren't enough resources to both feed the poor and satisfy the greed of the wealthy. So the wealthy let the poor starve. Sooner or later the poor were desparte enough to try anything.
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ha ha ha...
Large sunglasses, a fake nose, etc.
For every measure, there is and will always be a countermeasure.
And then there is the use of a spoofed MAC over someone
else's open wireless AP.
In short, only dumbasses will be snagged.
There've been occasional crackdowns on internet cafes in China for years. The way it works here in Shanghai, in my experience, is that the police will do a crackdown, check IDs, hand out fines, and the internet cafes will be really careful about getting people to show IDs for the next few weeks. After that, they'll begin to relax and let people sign in without actually showing their IDs - writing '12345' in the log book. The new system allows the government to make sure this doesn't happen anymore by restricting/recording access at the computer, bypassing the diligence, or lack thereof, of the owners/managers of the internet cafe.
I wasn't aware that you had to "log onto the Internet", except maybe on AOL.
Last time I checked, the Internet was simply a big collection of computers connected to networks connected to each other that routed packets.
No log on there.
This is just an example of the primitive state of culture that exists in China. A culture that permits a government to filter and force feed ideas.
Oh wait, scratch that. We do that right here.
Every day I wake up and have to remind myself that I live in a country that used to be free.
I wonder if cafe owners begin to temporarily disable surveillance for trusted customers, but not for too long so it appears as only a glitch.
and they say the gov is intrusive in America!
Just look at this war we are having. Have you seen any dead people on TV or newspapers? Why not? Don't we kill people over there?
The govt has decided that the US citizens are not allowed to see pictures of people we kill or even our soldiers that got killed.
Once in a while a picture will escape but by and large the US has kept very tight lid on what you can see and how much dissent they will tolerate.
evil is as evil does
-- Wang Zhen, Chinese Communist official, May 1989
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
What is this, 1999?
Believe me, I do get it -- and as to your second paragraph, it does scare me.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Yes, I have been to China, in fact I am marrying a Chinese woman. So I think that I a decent idea of what chinese are like.
If you paid attention to history you would see obivious flaws in his bias. He is basing his opinion based upon his father, who probalbly holds a very idealized view of his childhood.
Think about what he said, his father, who has lived in the US for decades about the way China is. That is assuming China has not changed since this man is a child. Is the US the same as it was 50 years ago, 30 years ago, hell how about 5 years ago. But you are willing to assume that China has not changed at all?