"I am disappointed in Mandrake for holding back themselves and their users by this 2 week "early" download for club members."
Yeah, I am really disappointed you're not paying my slashdot subscription, cause I went to all the trouble to read your post . . . wtf (w = where) do you get the idea that Mandrake OWES its non-contributing users ANYTHING!?
And they are holding back themselves by trying to generate more revenue!? Man, move out of your parents basement and learn how the world is . ..
"Coherence is overrated."
It is obvious you believe that, no reason to state it. You got things pretty bass ackwards there . . . Glad I had this opportunity to see how true freeloaders think.
The difference is that savvy users can just compile their own code with the patch as soons as it is released, while in the MS world you have to wait for the binary.
Still don't see how we are deluding ourselves here . ..
Mandrake used bittorrent this time, so the club members were supplying their own bandwidth.
Mandrake released first to club members to reinforce the value of the membership. As a club member I support this since it also means a certain number of people will decide to join the club just to download early (100 or so people did become members for that reason, only to be disappointed that they could have waited a day to get the download for free). More members means a better distro and a better member site.
You are right, I am going to talk to Mandrake about implementing an exclusive copyright on the installer and configuration tools for a limitted time and then releasing those under the GPL AFTER the club members have all had a chance to download the distro first. I suppose this problem will be resolved by the next release (there are simply too many hardcore freeloaders to get around this).
I am not complaining about people downloading the distro without donating. I am complaining about people setting up bittorrents two days after the distro is released for club members only (A week would be fine, but 48 hours is just poor manners).
Looking forward to having a coherent discussion with you when you learn to read and retain the accurate information what you have just read. ..
I live far, far away from all my family members, and the majority of my family is running Linux. Why? Because the computers I gave to them had linux (Mandrake) on them.
If you are using Linux on your desktop, think about becoming your family's Admin. I used to hate going over to my parent's house and being sat in front of the computer and told to fix it (boot into safe mode, delete temp file, scan disk, defrag disk, dread coming to visit a couple months later), so I bought them a new Linux computer ($200). I no longer have to fix ANYTHING. And I can remotely add the things they think are useful, later.
Sure, everything wasn't 100% smooth, but buying the computer usually buys you a lot of slack (and it gives them something to brag to their friends about . ..). Also, everyone overall is better off since Linux is really a better operating system for its TCO, if fully administered (let the flames begin, but come on . . . all Windows favoring TCO's point to Linux "big" training cost).
If I offended any users of other OS's, I am truly sorry. This was targeted at fellow Linux users only.
I guess Mandrake will just have to implement some kind of copyright that changes over time. Host a bittorent of their installer and configuration tools before such a such a date and be guilty of copyright infringement. Wait until after the date (like a whole freaking WEEK after the release to members), no problem.
Sorry, but a lot of ideals depend on moderation and balance. For instance, I believe a woman should have control over her own body, so I consider myself pro-choice. However, if I hear about someone having 20 abortions, I would seriously consider voting for laws that would take SOME legal power away from women in certain situations. No ideal makes sense without moderation.
Had you waited, say, a WEEK to start hosting bittorrents of 9.2, I wouldn't have had a problem, even if Mandrake hadn't given its blessing. However, doing it this early is simply a sign of very poor character and the inability to comprehend the bigger picture.
Look at it this way . . . I can legally download a GPL package and then go into IRC channels and demand and order someone to explain how I can use it, write the author and tell him/her how stupid s/he is for not making it easier to install, and go out of my way to cause trouble for the community. It is perfectly legal, yet if enough people were like that the law would no longer matter because Open Source would cease to exist.
Open Source is great because its existence proves that even though the world is messed up and full of greedy, self-serving ingrates, there are enough thoughtful, selfless, and talented individuals out there that the system works. I no longer believe it is a question whether or not Open Source is viable. I believe the only question that matters is which group we want to belong to.
First of all, why are you posting as an Anon if you really believe that such behavior is ethical?
Yes, EVERYTHING is GPLed. That includes the installer and all the distro specific tools, as well. How many other distro companies even GPL the very tools that make there distro unique!?
And how can they afford to do that? They have club members who financially support the distro. And why do people become club members? Because of certain benefits, LIKE BEING ABLE TO DOWNLOAD THE ISO BEFORE EVERYONE ELSE.
Say what you like, but it comes down to you being just as gready and unethical as the average PHB. The only difference is you weren't smart enough to become a PHB.
Oh well, I suppose your own miserable life is enough punishment. Enjoy 9.2, it really is a good distro, no thanks to you. ..
"These are the download editions and legal under the GPL, of course."
I love how you all bitch and complain about EULA's and locked down programs, but when a company that behaves closest to your ideals tries to get more people to support it financially as it struggles to break even, you can't event wait 3 freaken days to freeload?
Sorry guys, but what you think is insightful is really shortsighted and self-destructive.
-1 flamebait/offtopic (poster made me think about my actions)
InsightfuL? Okay, Windows let's YOU get YOUR work done, but UK, Russia, and Brazil think there is the possibility that they can get work down on another platform.
Personally, I do not consider your inablity to separate your needs with the needs of the rest of the world as "insightful."
This was brought up when South Korea announced its Open Source initiative due to MS having too much market control.
I can believe that countries would let MS know they are looking at alternatives inorder to get a better deal, but citing "avoiding MS market dominance" or stating that the Open Source model results in more secure and stable code is NOT going to win them points with MS.
No, if I was starting a project just to get MS to lower their prices, I would state that PRICE and only PRICE was what was driving me to look at alternatives. I wouldn't mention reasons that might piss MS off and hurt negotiations. Plus, I would look pretty bad in the public eye if I had claimed other significant reasons for using alternatives and then just caved in because MS lowered their price (what if we were hit by a worm after dumping the project for MS AFTER stating that Open Source is more secure?).
Here's a revolutionary idea . . . maybe UK and SK are really looking into OSS for the reasons they gave because, though the system isn't great, it is not messed up enough to be totally blind to the advantages of OSS?
I have owned perhaps 10 to 20 Linux machines. Most have gone to friends and family (which I did not bother to register), some just died (my cat crawled into one while it was running . . . stupid cat/owner).
Only zealots (like myself) take the time to register, that is why the number is so low. It is safe to say that for every zealot, 5 to 10 machines have been installed with Linux. However, few of us are willing to register EACH and EVERY machine we installed on. Maybe if they started giving us karma per machine installed . . .
I signed the online petition that asked SCO to please sue me . . . no response yet.
I guess if even the RIAA and MPAA are having trouble using lawsuits to control BLATANT copyright violations, SCO doesn't have much of a chance in hell suing users on completely baseless grounds.
You know, SCO could have really helped their compaign if they had just released a bit of actually infringing code (not all of it, just a taste so that we all would know they aren't full of BS) . . . the fact that they haven't yet, when it is in their best interest, is either a sign of complete incompetence or the nonexistence of such code.
We expect people to be able to read because written language is an integral part of our economy. If you are not able to read, you can easily be legally tricked into signing a contract that turns over all of your assets.
Computer technology is reaching that same level of integration within our economy. Your typical users doesn't know what a firewall is, yet at the same time they are unknowlingly exposing themselves to financial risk.
Yes, there is a certain level of specialization within our society, however understanding computer technology is much closer to literacy at a highschool level than knowing how to build a house or even how to drive (depending on where you live).
However, the most important reason that everyone should be expected to understand a great deal about computer technology is that is an extremely powerful tool of both democracy and of oppression. The thin line that divides the two correlates directly to how knowledgable the public is about the technology.
"Though by choosing to distribute it with BitTorrent, do they effectively limit the downloads for a limited release?"
As opposed to NOT using BitTorrent and having all the bandwidth eaten up so that each person gets 4k/s ?
Oh, I get it . . . you meant "Though by limiting the release, do they effectively make the BitTorrent method of distribution less effective?"
Well, there are over 16,000 Mandrake members. Let's say only 10% decide to download at the same time (an obviously conservative figure), that is still 1,600 simultaneous downloads. Is that suboptimal for BitTorrent?
Personally, I don't think Mandrake cares. The other way couldn't handle the traffic so they are using BitTorrent. If members get 150k/s instead 200k/s because of the limitted release, big deal. That is a small price to pay to get freeloaders involved in the actual realities behind creating a product they obviously value.
I was really excited, because for ~$300 I could buy a Lindows preinstalled computer AND get 1 year of broadband. I was going to set up my mother-in-law with a firewall and broadband access (and toyed with the idea of using gnomeeting to avoid long distance calls, though I use vonage). However, I can't find any more information at either Lindows or Nojima's site (the articles just disappeared).
Have you seen or heard anything related to Nojima and Lindows?
Okay, say I am China. I like Linux cause it runs on many different platforms, supports a lot of different applications, and is constantly being developed (the result of being a truly open platform).
So, now I am going to make a lot of "developments" that break compatiability so that my flavor will not run on as many future platforms, not have as many different applications, and will only be developed by my own developers (who lack the expertise of the rest of the community)?
Maybe China will initially try to maintain a broken branch, but they will soon find out that this is much too costly and the benefits far too small.
When the most valuable aspect of a standard is that it is open, forking/closing it off does not make sense.
Slashdot Mirror
"I am disappointed in Mandrake for holding back themselves and their users by this 2 week "early" download for club members."
.
Yeah, I am really disappointed you're not paying my slashdot subscription, cause I went to all the trouble to read your post . . . wtf (w = where) do you get the idea that Mandrake OWES its non-contributing users ANYTHING!?
And they are holding back themselves by trying to generate more revenue!? Man, move out of your parents basement and learn how the world is . .
"Coherence is overrated."
It is obvious you believe that, no reason to state it. You got things pretty bass ackwards there . . . Glad I had this opportunity to see how true freeloaders think.
Here I am a shrimp, there I am a TALL shrimp.
The difference is that savvy users can just compile their own code with the patch as soons as it is released, while in the MS world you have to wait for the binary.
.
Still don't see how we are deluding ourselves here . .
Mandrake used bittorrent this time, so the club members were supplying their own bandwidth.
Mandrake released first to club members to reinforce the value of the membership. As a club member I support this since it also means a certain number of people will decide to join the club just to download early (100 or so people did become members for that reason, only to be disappointed that they could have waited a day to get the download for free). More members means a better distro and a better member site.
You are right, I am going to talk to Mandrake about implementing an exclusive copyright on the installer and configuration tools for a limitted time and then releasing those under the GPL AFTER the club members have all had a chance to download the distro first. I suppose this problem will be resolved by the next release (there are simply too many hardcore freeloaders to get around this).
"Stop being a baby about this."
.
Being a baby about this is neither illegal nor unethical so I intend to continue.
"It's clear you don't understand free software and you don't understand the enterprise."
Yikes, you just tested me!? That's not fair! Wait, I didn't even know WHICH enterprise you were testing me on. Shucks . .
Moderators, if you read this far, you have much too much time on your hands. . . I admire you.
I am not complaining about people downloading the distro without donating. I am complaining about people setting up bittorrents two days after the distro is released for club members only (A week would be fine, but 48 hours is just poor manners).
.
Looking forward to having a coherent discussion with you when you learn to read and retain the accurate information what you have just read. .
I live far, far away from all my family members, and the majority of my family is running Linux. Why? Because the computers I gave to them had linux (Mandrake) on them.
.). Also, everyone overall is better off since Linux is really a better operating system for its TCO, if fully administered (let the flames begin, but come on . . . all Windows favoring TCO's point to Linux "big" training cost).
If you are using Linux on your desktop, think about becoming your family's Admin. I used to hate going over to my parent's house and being sat in front of the computer and told to fix it (boot into safe mode, delete temp file, scan disk, defrag disk, dread coming to visit a couple months later), so I bought them a new Linux computer ($200). I no longer have to fix ANYTHING. And I can remotely add the things they think are useful, later.
Sure, everything wasn't 100% smooth, but buying the computer usually buys you a lot of slack (and it gives them something to brag to their friends about . .
If I offended any users of other OS's, I am truly sorry. This was targeted at fellow Linux users only.
I guess Mandrake will just have to implement some kind of copyright that changes over time. Host a bittorent of their installer and configuration tools before such a such a date and be guilty of copyright infringement. Wait until after the date (like a whole freaking WEEK after the release to members), no problem.
Sorry, but a lot of ideals depend on moderation and balance. For instance, I believe a woman should have control over her own body, so I consider myself pro-choice. However, if I hear about someone having 20 abortions, I would seriously consider voting for laws that would take SOME legal power away from women in certain situations. No ideal makes sense without moderation.
Had you waited, say, a WEEK to start hosting bittorrents of 9.2, I wouldn't have had a problem, even if Mandrake hadn't given its blessing. However, doing it this early is simply a sign of very poor character and the inability to comprehend the bigger picture.
Look at it this way . . . I can legally download a GPL package and then go into IRC channels and demand and order someone to explain how I can use it, write the author and tell him/her how stupid s/he is for not making it easier to install, and go out of my way to cause trouble for the community. It is perfectly legal, yet if enough people were like that the law would no longer matter because Open Source would cease to exist.
Open Source is great because its existence proves that even though the world is messed up and full of greedy, self-serving ingrates, there are enough thoughtful, selfless, and talented individuals out there that the system works. I no longer believe it is a question whether or not Open Source is viable. I believe the only question that matters is which group we want to belong to.
First of all, why are you posting as an Anon if you really believe that such behavior is ethical?
.
Yes, EVERYTHING is GPLed. That includes the installer and all the distro specific tools, as well. How many other distro companies even GPL the very tools that make there distro unique!?
And how can they afford to do that? They have club members who financially support the distro. And why do people become club members? Because of certain benefits, LIKE BEING ABLE TO DOWNLOAD THE ISO BEFORE EVERYONE ELSE.
Say what you like, but it comes down to you being just as gready and unethical as the average PHB. The only difference is you weren't smart enough to become a PHB.
Oh well, I suppose your own miserable life is enough punishment. Enjoy 9.2, it really is a good distro, no thanks to you. .
"These are the download editions and legal under the GPL, of course."
I love how you all bitch and complain about EULA's and locked down programs, but when a company that behaves closest to your ideals tries to get more people to support it financially as it struggles to break even, you can't event wait 3 freaken days to freeload?
Sorry guys, but what you think is insightful is really shortsighted and self-destructive.
-1 flamebait/offtopic (poster made me think about my actions)
blowing themselves up on your doorstep, a monopoly, even as almight as MS, just doesn't seem that intimidating.
Major improvement on Japanese. Especially_with_OO! I was very, very impressed.
It also got rid of a strange bug that Mozilla on 9.1 had on rendering some Japanese pages (maybe UTF related?).
It seems much faster and stable, overall. Also, OpenOffice 1.1 on totally ROCKS! (much faster! Handles Japanese perfectly!).9.2
I would hang out and tell you more, but I am in the process of installing bittorrent's gui so that I can install 9.2 from the website.
Later!
InsightfuL? Okay, Windows let's YOU get YOUR work done, but UK, Russia, and Brazil think there is the possibility that they can get work down on another platform.
Personally, I do not consider your inablity to separate your needs with the needs of the rest of the world as "insightful."
This was brought up when South Korea announced its Open Source initiative due to MS having too much market control.
I can believe that countries would let MS know they are looking at alternatives inorder to get a better deal, but citing "avoiding MS market dominance" or stating that the Open Source model results in more secure and stable code is NOT going to win them points with MS.
No, if I was starting a project just to get MS to lower their prices, I would state that PRICE and only PRICE was what was driving me to look at alternatives. I wouldn't mention reasons that might piss MS off and hurt negotiations. Plus, I would look pretty bad in the public eye if I had claimed other significant reasons for using alternatives and then just caved in because MS lowered their price (what if we were hit by a worm after dumping the project for MS AFTER stating that Open Source is more secure?).
Here's a revolutionary idea . . . maybe UK and SK are really looking into OSS for the reasons they gave because, though the system isn't great, it is not messed up enough to be totally blind to the advantages of OSS?
I have owned perhaps 10 to 20 Linux machines. Most have gone to friends and family (which I did not bother to register), some just died (my cat crawled into one while it was running . . . stupid cat/owner).
Only zealots (like myself) take the time to register, that is why the number is so low. It is safe to say that for every zealot, 5 to 10 machines have been installed with Linux. However, few of us are willing to register EACH and EVERY machine we installed on. Maybe if they started giving us karma per machine installed . . .
I signed the online petition that asked SCO to please sue me . . . no response yet.
I guess if even the RIAA and MPAA are having trouble using lawsuits to control BLATANT copyright violations, SCO doesn't have much of a chance in hell suing users on completely baseless grounds.
You know, SCO could have really helped their compaign if they had just released a bit of actually infringing code (not all of it, just a taste so that we all would know they aren't full of BS) . . . the fact that they haven't yet, when it is in their best interest, is either a sign of complete incompetence or the nonexistence of such code.
Do you consider yourself a good employee by being oblivious to such a significant move by such a significant player in your industry?
Time to spend some time out of the server room . . . there is a whole world out there.
"linux needs a unified installer system. it needs to be a click-and-drool GUI (command line capability though)"
Okay, uh, go to www.mandrakeclub.com.
If that seems too "complex," go to www.lindows.com
But don't feel bad . . . the moderators need to do some research, as well.
We expect people to be able to read because written language is an integral part of our economy. If you are not able to read, you can easily be legally tricked into signing a contract that turns over all of your assets.
Computer technology is reaching that same level of integration within our economy. Your typical users doesn't know what a firewall is, yet at the same time they are unknowlingly exposing themselves to financial risk.
Yes, there is a certain level of specialization within our society, however understanding computer technology is much closer to literacy at a highschool level than knowing how to build a house or even how to drive (depending on where you live).
However, the most important reason that everyone should be expected to understand a great deal about computer technology is that is an extremely powerful tool of both democracy and of oppression. The thin line that divides the two correlates directly to how knowledgable the public is about the technology.
"What impression are investors being left with?"
SCOX 17.18 -1.71
Or were you just downloading at your own convenience?
It makes a BIG difference (I average 200K/s !)
"Though by choosing to distribute it with BitTorrent, do they effectively limit the downloads for a limited release?"
As opposed to NOT using BitTorrent and having all the bandwidth eaten up so that each person gets 4k/s ?
Oh, I get it . . . you meant "Though by limiting the release, do they effectively make the BitTorrent method of distribution less effective?"
Well, there are over 16,000 Mandrake members. Let's say only 10% decide to download at the same time (an obviously conservative figure), that is still 1,600 simultaneous downloads. Is that suboptimal for BitTorrent?
Personally, I don't think Mandrake cares. The other way couldn't handle the traffic so they are using BitTorrent. If members get 150k/s instead 200k/s because of the limitted release, big deal. That is a small price to pay to get freeloaders involved in the actual realities behind creating a product they obviously value.
Lindows?
/.jp:
7 &topic=46&mode=thread
I read this article at
http://slashdot.jp/article.pl?sid=03/09/06/133624
I was really excited, because for ~$300 I could buy a Lindows preinstalled computer AND get 1 year of broadband. I was going to set up my mother-in-law with a firewall and broadband access (and toyed with the idea of using gnomeeting to avoid long distance calls, though I use vonage). However, I can't find any more information at either Lindows or Nojima's site (the articles just disappeared).
Have you seen or heard anything related to Nojima and Lindows?
Thanks.
Okay, say I am China. I like Linux cause it runs on many different platforms, supports a lot of different applications, and is constantly being developed (the result of being a truly open platform).
So, now I am going to make a lot of "developments" that break compatiability so that my flavor will not run on as many future platforms, not have as many different applications, and will only be developed by my own developers (who lack the expertise of the rest of the community)?
Maybe China will initially try to maintain a broken branch, but they will soon find out that this is much too costly and the benefits far too small.
When the most valuable aspect of a standard is that it is open, forking/closing it off does not make sense.