IBM, Brazilian Government Launch Linux Effort

Brazil announces name change by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:32 · Score: 0, Funny

They will now be known as IBMrazil.

Re:Brazil announces name change by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:14 · Score: 0

No, it's now GNU/Brazil.
Re:Brazil announces name change by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 17:03 · Score: 0

I can hardly wait for GNU/Mexico.

One day... by 1010011010 · 2003-10-12 14:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

One day the U.S. will be running Microsoft software, and the rest of the world will not.

Or, Microsoft will stop being such a control freak.

--
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.

Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:51 · Score: 0

One day the U.S. will be running Microsoft software, and the rest of the world will not.

Or the rest of the world will be running Linux hijacked by IBM (which is still American). Why do you need another large U.S. corporation involved at all? Surely a better idea would be to get support from some local Linux group(s). Much cheaper and probably more effective.
Re:One day... by Kenja · 2003-10-12 15:05 · Score: 0, Flamebait

By all means, lets all switch to Linux regardless of if its the best tool for the task. Freakin zellots.
Most people use Windows because for the time being its the best all around choice. There is nothing on Linux that can do the things that I need to do on a day to day bassis. When I need UNIX I use it, I have sevearl Sun and SGI systems around my apartment and have Linux and BSD running in VMWare in addition to my MacOS X system (least used of the bunch I fear). However bottom line is that Windows lets me get work done that would be far harder to do on the other platforms.
You may give up productivity for your OS ideals. Thats fine. Just dont expect the rest of us to go along with it.

--

"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 15:13 · Score: 1

Very very true. And you have a very valid point where things concern you. However, most users can do fine with Windows or KDE or Gnome. They have simple needs. The bottom line here is that most users now could easily use one of the more polished Linux distros in place of Windows.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by cduffy · 2003-10-12 15:19 · Score: 1

I'm just curious: What kind of work do you do such that good tools aren't available for Linux?
Re:One day... by Kenja · 2003-10-12 15:23 · Score: 1

I disagree; people with simple needs are not well suited for Linux as it is. They would end up spending more time dealing with the OS then with the applications. This isn't to say that someone couldn't build a system based on Linux that could work, just that it hasn't been done. For one thing I think that X and most of the server deamons should be dropped. The basic home user has no need for redirect able displays and something simpler that does basic functions such as resolution changing better could be had. OS X is a good example of this, as is SGI OpenMagic (still has X compatibility but is much better integrated into the OS).

--

"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:One day... by Kenja · 2003-10-12 15:23 · Score: 1

Well, right now nothing (freaking economy). However none has introduced the same level of development, image editing and desktop publishing tools to Linux that can be found on other platforms. Kilx is nothing compared to C++ Builder or Visual Studio .NET, GIMP is just compared to Photoshop and I can?t think of anything to compare to Vegas Video. What?s more, for my main system I simply don?t want to mess around with the OS. On Linux and every other UNIX or Unix system I use there is a disproportionate amount of time working with the OS rather then applications. I don?t use an OS, I use apps and need an OS that launches them and does file management, that?s it. The day when I can stick an expansion card into a Linux system and have it simply work is the day I consider using it, not before.

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"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:34 · Score: 0

nanodot
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 15:34 · Score: 1

I disagree

Big surprise. :) You are a very well known Microsoft Apologist despite your carefully crafted fantasies involving running *NIX and *BSD and whatnot. I'd have expected no less than a completely pointless and error filled reply from you no matter now absolutely perfect and valid my post was. Anybody here that has used Mandrake with KDE can tell you that it's more than enough for the average user. It's easier than Windows to install for one, and comes with everything the average user actually needs. My mother is happily using Kmail for mail, Konqueror for the web, and OO for typing stuff up. Her HP printer works fine. She can print her labels and auction stuff on eBay. That's all she really needs. Like I have to tell you any of this. You already know this and you have your fingers in your ears and you are going LA LA LA LA LA! :) It's really quite amusing. You really need to get over your obvious bias. It's very unattractive. I know of absolutely nobody that is so brain numbingly helpless that they can't get around in the most recent KDE versions. Your arguments about X not only make no sense whatsoever. People have already built a few systems based on Linux that work perfectly fine for the inexperiences computer user. Perhaps they don't meet your needs, but we covered that. Just because you aren't ready for Linux and Linux doesn't do all the things you need to do, doesn't mean that it isn't simply perfect for most people. And it is. :) Linux isn't afraid of you Kenja.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by GrimReality · 2003-10-12 15:34 · Score: 1

One day the U.S. will be running Microsoft software, and the rest of the world will not.

It is something of a hobby for me to check out foreign web-sites. I frequently go to GB, IE, AU, PL, assorted South American, Middle Eastern and Asian websites. Many of these websites are run by the big-names of the respective countries.

What I have noticed is that most websites are inaccessible, unless you have Microsoft Internet Explorer, and even if you can access it, it would look horrible.

While many big-name websites in the US makes sure that it will work at least at a minimum, these websites seem to think that Microsft is the only thing out there.

Again, many of these sites engage in immature Shockwave Flash based websites, which by now many big name companies in the US are avoiding and even when they do use it, provide alternative HTML only page. Other immaturities such as using images instead of text also abound.

I am not saying anything. Just putting forth my observations. Of course, one could say that I have been visiting all the wrong websites.

I will show you two extreme examples, one from GB (England) which is one of the most advanced countries outside the US and the other from India (which is one of the poorest and backward in the world). This should give you an idea of how the ones in the middle are.

Try visiting these websites with Mozilla, with Shockwave Flash disabled (I suppose for most Slashdotters, (myself included) going with Flash enabled would be a nastier experience):
[GB] MG Rover Select UK as the country on the entrance page (see also it's German website MG Rover Deutschland)
and
[IN] Tata Motors (a soon-to-be subsidiary of Daimler-Chrysler though).

Again, I am not saying things are super here in the US. It is bad, but so is it outside too. Personally, I wish you were right, then, at least, some part of this planet will escape. Unfortunately, the reality is far from rosy.

GrimReality
2003-10-13 03:32:26 UTC (2003-10-12 23:32:26 EDT)
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 15:37 · Score: 1

But you can't simply stick and expansion card in a Wintel box and it just work either. You have to do the drivers install dance. What amazing expectations you have for Linux that nobody else supports either.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by cduffy · 2003-10-12 15:40 · Score: 1

The day when I can stick an expansion card into a Linux system and have it simply work is the day I consider using it, not before.

That day would be today. Or quite a while ago, even... at least if the hardware in question is something like a sound card or video card or such. I'm not sure 'bout autoconfiguration on video capture cards -- haven't tried that lately -- but generally speaking, modern distributions' hardware detection is quite good. (By "modern distributions" I'm mostly referring to Red Hat 9 and KNOPPIX).

That said... I haven't tried Kylix, but it's not really the kind of thing that floats my boat anyhow. I do Java, C and Python development; wrt Java, Eclipse is considered by many to be among the better IDEs on any environment -- and works on Linux as well as Windows, though a bit slower on midrange hardware. As for C... well, call me old-fashoned, but when writing C I'm just as happy without one of those new-fangled IDE things anyhow. (Last time I tried using Visual Studio I was too busy being annoyed at the silly MS compiler being unable to handle syntax like "(a ? b : c) = d" to notice any nifty features the IDE might have had)... and writing Python, hell, *nix is where the development tools are native to anyhow (and stuff like the python bindings to libglade make throwing together quick GUI prototypes / one-offs / whatever a snap).

All in all, I consider Linux a *far* friendlier development environment. Hell, if some library isn't doing what I expect it to, I can trace down into its code... if I'm writing a driver I can run it inside a user-mode port of the OS and attach my regular source-level debugger to it and trace around inside the OS... try doing *that* in Windows!

Not having tools like strace and ltrace when I'm on Windows is another one of those things that makes my life a pain there... from where I stand (especially when doing integration work) those tools -- simple as they may be -- are worth more than whatever eye candy some fancy IDE might provide any day.

WRT Photoshop, it runs on Linux now -- as long as you own a copy of Crossover Office, which is cheap. Can't comment on DTP, as it's not something I do -- frankly, btw, I'm suprised that Adobe didn't follow up their FrameMaker Linux beta with a commercially supported port yet.
Re:One day... by nels_tomlinson · 2003-10-12 15:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

However bottom line is that Windows lets me get work done that would be far harder to do on the other platforms.
If your job description is: ``Run MS Windows programs.'', or the equivalent, then I don't doubt a bit what you're saying.
If your job is to work with data, to produce structured documents, et cetera, then you'll be shocked to find just how much harder it is to try to do things the Windows way on Unix, or the Unix way on Windows.
The two OS's are quite different. I think that KDE and Gnome have done the computer-literate a disservice: they make Linux look a lot like Windows. The capable Windows user switches to Linux, and finds that it's harder to do the familiar tasks the familiar, Windows way. He then claims that the Linux guys must be ``Freakin zellots [sic]''. If Linux didn't look so much like the nightmare from Redmond, that competent Windows user would assume that a new platform required new ways of doing things, and would learn the easy ways to do things on the new platform, rather than finding that the easiest way to do things on Windows just doesn't work out well on Linux and saying ``Freaking zealots! Linux sucks!''
In short, Linux and Windows are different, and what works best on one isn't going to work best on the other. If you use either the way it was intended, you'll be fairly happy with the results (give or take a few viruses and application crashes).

--
See what I've been reading.
Re:One day... by rsheridan6 · 2003-10-12 15:43 · Score: 1

This article is about a government possibly switching to linux; all of that crap will be taken care of by the geeks. For normal people with normal needs and a properly configured system, there's a very short learning curve. "This is Mozilla. It's your web browser. This is OpenOffice. That's your office suite. Enjoy." It's really just not that big of a deal. I've had several non-technical people use my system without a problem.

--
Don't drop the soap, Tommy!
Re:One day... by NortWind · 2003-10-12 15:47 · Score: 1

There is nothing on Linux that can do the things that I need to do on a day to day bassis.

Linux, with open standards, gives me control of my data, my documents. As long as you don't mind not knowing how your hard disk is formatted, or what is in your doc files, you can be happy in the Windows world. In a year or two, when Longhorn comes out, the reason it is important to control your own data will become a lot more apparent.
Re:One day... by berzerke · 2003-10-12 15:51 · Score: 1

...However bottom line is that Windows lets me get work done that would be far harder to do on the other platforms...

(Note: I am listing only MY favorite apps. There are others. I'm sure some replies will include them.) Web surfing on Linux (Konqueror, Mozilla) - no problem. Email on Linux (Mozilla, Kmail) - no problem. Writing on Linux (OpenOffice, Lyx) - no problem. Spreadsheets on Linux (OpenOffice) - no problem. Photo editing on Linux (Gimp) - no problem. Solitare (Pysol) - no problem :^). I use spreadsheets for my financials, so I can't comment on Quicken vs. GnuCash. I can't speak for you, but I can be very productive on a Linux system.

Someone wiser than me once said there are two ways to do anything: The easy way and right way.
Re:One day... by nels_tomlinson · 2003-10-12 15:55 · Score: 1

If you're using Visual studio .NET, it sounds as if your job description is ``Run (and write) Windows programs.'' Better stick to Windows for that.
I can't talk about Gimp and such because I don't do images. As for messing about with the OS, Debian has filled the bill nicely for me. Each time I get online, I type ``apt-get update;apt-get -u upgrade''. My system is always up to date, and I never have to do any system administration tasks beyond that.
The day when I can stick an expansion card into a Linux system and have it simply work is the day I consider using it, not before.
Actually, that is one of the great advantages to Linux. Whatever I plug in just works. Kudzu finds it, loads the drivers, and away I go. When I put in a PCI card modem, I did have to use the wizard (setup dialog in kppp) to configure it. When that card died, I had to configure the ISA replacement modem the same way (it wound up on a different serial port, because I switched some other stuff around while I was in there). I have a Windows game machine for the children (no modem, no NIC, no viruses), and it's a huge hassle to deal with any hardware changes on it. We just got a new machine for them with XP. From what I've heard, it will be easier to simply replace the machine than to upgrade or repair the hardware.

--
See what I've been reading.
Re:One day... by Kenja · 2003-10-12 15:58 · Score: 1

Which is fine, I'm not against any government, orginization or person from using any OS they want. So long as the logic behind the choice is vallid. I'm all for using the right tool for the right job. What I dislike is people who claim that [Enter OS here] is the ONE TRUE OS!!!!

--

"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:59 · Score: 0

However bottom line is that Windows lets me get work done that would be far harder to do on the other platforms.
That is such BS. It's only true if you do very limited things. Say for example you want to open a 500Mb log file. Would you use word or excel or something in Office? I recently wasted 2 days at work because we were given the task of benchmarking an application written with webservices. but because most of the machines are limited to 10 concurrent inbound connection we had to go through the trouble of finding a system with 2000 server and setting it up. If I was using Unix/Linux with Apache, it would be a non issue. There wouldn't be some stupid 10 concurrent inbound connection limitation. This was yet another problem we discovered after we found out Win2K server can't authenticate with Sql Server hosted on Win2K3 server if you're using SQLXML. Basically a week was lost due to this mythilogical "easier" use and development. From first hand experience developing with Java and .NET. There are entire classes of problems that are much easier to accomplish in Java. Like connecting to sybase, oracle and sql server seamlessly.
Re:One day... by Talez · 2003-10-12 16:14 · Score: 1

But you can't simply stick and expansion card in a Wintel box and it just work either. You have to do the drivers install dance. What amazing expectations you have for Linux that nobody else supports either.

Thats only if you have a piece of hardware that isn't one of the billion or so things they include drivers for on the Windows XP CD.

Hell, my digicam (which was only bought in June) showed up in Windows XP as soon as I plugged it into the USB port. No drivers. Came up as "Caplio G3". Probably was using a generic USB mass storage driver with a custom device string but the point is that it worked the first time without any fuss.

Ditto for my USB mouse, my USB keyboard, my sound card and my network card. The only things I've ever needed drivers for were the video card and the chipset and even then the chipset drivers weren't that vital.

However, this isn't just limited to Windows XP. You used Knoppix recently? ACPI enabled kernel which automatically detects and installs drivers. Utterly brilliant piece of work and I commend them greatly.

Yes, the driver dance is still around but its getting less important and less frustrating by the day. Most instructions for installing a new device come with a sheet that says "don't plug the thing in, install the software that comes with it, plug the thing in and Windows does the rest" and IMHO, the only way you could make the process any better would be to download the drivers off the net automatically the first time the device is plugged in.
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 16:16 · Score: 1

I'm right there with you. I got my ass chewed out by a friend the other day because I hooked up a customer with Win2k3 Web Edition instead of Linux or BSD etc. "You are in bed with the enemy traitor!" and bullshit like that. It was impossible for me to explain to him that it was just a small office that wanted their own web presense and had a distinct need for some very specific microsoft technologies that their existing web-page was based on. They just wanted to move their page to their own network and stop getting soaked by the provider they were using. It took me all of 4 hours to set everything up and move their page. The hardest part was getting their asshole ISP to give up the domain name that wasn't theirs. Everything is working fine now since DNS has propogated. I even have them behind a firewall that is redirecting port 80 and 443 internally to the Win2k3 machine. Some people just have their biases. The concept of the "ONLY OS" is a common one in all sides of the debate.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:17 · Score: 0

Oh you mean you are an appliance operator. To bad. For you.
Re:One day... by ssstraub · 2003-10-12 16:17 · Score: 1

Wow. 90 comments and Sevn has already got SIX +5's! I don't know that I've ever seen that before...
Re:One day... by ssstraub · 2003-10-12 16:20 · Score: 1

Ditto for my USB mouse, my USB keyboard

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm always curious what you do with the open PS/2 ports after you decide to use a USB keyboard and mouse. I mean, is there another use for these ports? It's seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to use them for the ONLY thing they work for, and save 2 USB ports for other things. But that's just me.
Re:One day... by cduffy · 2003-10-12 16:30 · Score: 1

...except that PS/2 ports *suck*.

I've had them outright fail on multiple occasions, and the programming interface for dealing with USB input devices is much much more fun (okay, once the full input core, rather than the subset that got merged in 2.4, is in the kernel, this is less of an issue). USB keyboards can have extra goodies onboard (ranging from USB hubs to all the niftiness that is a Touchstream keyboard),.. and USB mice have a higher poll rate than their PS/2 equivalents, so cursor movements are less choppy (well, as long as the rest of the system keeps up).

But then, I've got more than 2 USB ports, so saving them for other things is less of an issue.
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 16:32 · Score: 1

Or, if Microsoft has simply decided to remove the driver, or they don't have a decent relationship with the hardware vendor anymore. When I installed XP not only did I have to spend 3 hours downloading all the security patches, virus definitions, spyware removers, and other general utilities to lock the box down and make it secure, I also had to get the drivers for my digital camera "powershot s110" scanner "epson perfection 1200U" UPS, etc. That took another few hours to download and install. Then I had massive issues because of bug with the Microsoft USB drivers. Then I had to reinstall all my USB stuff because it didn't recognise it anymore. That was loads of fun without a working mouse (logitech mx300). Then I had to get a specific mx300 driver because quake3 didn't like my mouse anymore. Then I had to get updated nvidia drivers because the ones that came with XP were seriously outdated and causing all sorts of problems. For some reason windows updated didn't find the latest WHL approved driver and I had to install it by hand. Then I ran windows update again and suddenly there were 12 more things there wern't there last time. The built in burning software in XP kept locking up my system so I installed Nero BUT my cdrom specific version didn't like it anymore so I had to go PURCHASE A FUCKING LICENSE to get nero working so I could use my burner. So in the end after 14 HOURS I had my XP system up, working and secure. It's not like any of the hardware I have is particularly ancient. Now, in comparison,

Had Mandrake installed in about 30 minutes.

I installed Xsane and edited one file and had my scanner working in 5 minutes under Linux.

I installed gphoto2 and gtkam and had my digital camera working in about 10 minutes under Linux.

I installed cups with gimp-print and had my printer working in under 5 minutes.

Video card and monitor setup was a point and click affair during install. It just worked. I did however spend about 30 minutes downloading the official NVidia drivers, then made two edits to my Xconfig to use them.

I ran the OS specific updates and had them installed in under 15 minutes from an ftp server.

The hardest part was getting my cdburner to work AGAIN. I had to add some hdX=scsi lines to a boot loader config, then install gtoaster. It took a while to figure that out.

So 14 hours for a configured, perfectly working secure XP install versus about 3 for a perfectly working and more secure Linux box. And I'm VERY good with Windows and *NIX.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by tc · 2003-10-12 16:39 · Score: 1

Big surprise. :) You are a very well known Microsoft Apologist despite your carefully crafted fantasies involving running *NIX and *BSD and whatnot.
Uh, what's with this crap? If someone has an opinion on a subject, and their posting history reveals them to be fairly consistent about it, does that make their point any more or less valuable? Replace 'Microsoft' with 'Linux' and '*NIX' with 'Windows' in the above sentance and see whether is still seems like sound reasoning.
I shall be happy to look out for the posts of Sven, the "very well known Linux apologist", with his "carefully crafted fantasies of running Windows", and warn Slashdot users of your dangerous posting history.
PS. When trying to make a point about what the majority of users can or cannot use, arguing by example carries little weight. For every mother who gets on just grand with Linux, there is another mother who has difficulty even turning on her computer. Neither example proves anything about the user population as a whole.
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:44 · Score: 0

I agree the two are different. Would you just have cli on linux then?
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 16:51 · Score: 1

True.

I should have said "well known to me". Me and Kenja have had disagreements in the past. Depending on the context, you'll see me frequently argue very hard for Windows, for Linux, For FreeBSD, etc. And sometimes I'm simply bored and doing mean spirited shit stirring but most of the time I'm a pretty straight arrow. The important thing is not taking any of this very seriously. I have a ton of respect for Kenja. It's more like jerking someone's chain. Kenja has a bunch of legitimate stuff that simply can't be done with anything but Microsoft tools. That doesn't change the fact that dick and jane computer user could get by just fine with KDE running on something.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by Nucleon500 · 2003-10-12 16:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

True, one would presume that the people using Windows are using it because it's the best choice for them. But consider why that is.
Windows is the best choice because it's popular. That's the only reason. Because of Windows's popularity, it has more commercial software and more hardware support (counting only x86). When people buy computers, the get Windows by default because everyone else does. It's not technically superior. It's not cheaper. It's not more secure. It's just more popular.
In some cases, popularity is the result of superiority. But this wasn't the case for Windows - it's popular because Bill was smart enough to sell DOS cheaper than CP/M, which made it easier to push Windows on the desktop market. This has nothing at all to do with it's quality.

--
Litigious bastards
Re:One day... by William+Baric · 2003-10-12 16:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sorry but you are the freakin zealot. My productivity has nothing to do with the OS running on my computer. I don't use an OS, I use applications. As long as the computer/OS works, the only thing which matters to me is the cost.

Personally using MS Office over OpenOffice won't improve my productivity one bit. IE won't make my google search faster and I have been burnt by Outlook so don't talk to me about it. The only problems I have is with some specialized windows only softwares because my clients are small business and they don't have enough purchase power to ask for a linux version... but for a government (who buy softwares with MY money) linux is perfect!
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 16:57 · Score: 1

If you think that's neat, explain to me why I haven't see any of the moderation done to any of my comments for the past 3 days. :) Every single one of my posts in my browser appears as a 2 for the past three days. I'm not sure where to begin to diagnose something like that. Browser cache?. :)

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 17:28 · Score: 0

I use X almost all the time, unless there is some pressing reason to shut it off (like big calculations on a small machine).
I use emacs and LaTeX for writing. Those, together with AucTeX, the RefTeX mode, flyspell and the BibTeX modes, make Word look pretty primitive, for both input and results.
For my data analysis, I use Maxima and the R programming language, again in emacs, this time using the eMaxima and ESS modes, repsectively.
Notice that all this can be done, exactly the same way, with or without X. I prefer X for web browsing, and need it to see the finished product from LaTeX (the DVI files). I run X because it's prettier, and it's easier to keep track of different desktops than to keep track of the several consoles, each with a number of emacs buffers. X is nice for the kid's games, like jumpnbump, too.
I could do most of the writing using OpenOffice. I already use OO to open Word and Excel stuff that I bring home from work. OO writer is about good enough now, if Word is good enough for you. Unfortunately, Word just isn't good enough for me, and neither is OO. They seem incredibly primitive.
The problem isn't that they require X or Windows, or that they can't run on the old 486DX I occasionally use, the problem is that I don't like that way of working. I struggle so hard, and my results look so much worse than when I let LaTeX typeset my work.
Maxima has a GUI, called XMaxima, and there is a Windows version of that. There just isn't a GUI for R, but there are several project working on putting one together. Given that we have emacs and ESS, that seems like a big step down, but to each his own.
The question here isn't CLI versus GUI, though I can see why it looks that way. The question here is are you using the tools which have been developed over the years to fit the platform you're on? On Unix, those happen to be mostly CLI, and they are incredibly sophisticated. On Windows, they are entirely GUI, and they may, someday, approach LaTeX for quality and ease of use (which is different from ease of learning). LaTeX and emacs are a pain to use on Windows (I use Windows at work, since it's my employer's time I'm wasting, rather than my own). Even with Cygwin, a lot of things just aren't quite right on Windows, if you're trying to do things the Unix way.
Re:One day... by Henry+Bone · 2003-10-12 17:30 · Score: 1

Anybody here that has used Mandrake with KDE can tell you that it's more than enough for the average user. It's easier than Windows to install for one, and comes with everything the average user actually needs.
I don't think so. I'm happy to be informed if I'm wrong but *NIX & *BSD desktop system leave a bit to be desired in my opinion.
Let's say I've just got a brand new PC with the latest video card from ATI. Are there X drivers that fully support it? Will the kernel installed with the latest Mandrake distro support my graphics hardware fully? What if I want to learn a foreign language by running language learning software on my new PC: is there software available that I can use on a *NIX/*BSD desktop? I've just seen the full trailer for half-life 2. Will I be able to run that game on my *NIX/*BSD desktop when it comes out? Will I be able to watch DivX movies or will I have to install additional software? What about if decide to subscribe to a bradband internet service: will the ISP's technician set it up for me if I'm not running windows? (Optus here in Australia say nay to that)
I use mandrake 9.1 at home. I am somewhat experienced with PCs and I've used many a linux distro. I've even built my own with LFS. I like using free software. I advocate it and agree with the principles of liberty which pervade the OSS and free software movements. That said, I think, as a desktop PC OS for consumers, windows is a better product than a unix-like running KDE or GNOME. Things "just work" under windows. Got new hardware? No problem. You install it and then you install the windows drivers that ship with it. Want to run some niche-interest software? No worries. You're most like to find the "best of breed" product is windows software.
IMHO the unix-like desktops have a long way to go. Some of it is out of their direct control, but that makes no difference to the consumer, and not much more difference to me.
Re:One day... by Kenja · 2003-10-12 18:01 · Score: 1

You seem to be having a one sided rivalry since I have no recollection of who you are, guess I realy should use the freinds/foes function some times. From this thread you seem like a typical zealot, however I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that since I do like a good argument. ;-)
To reiterate however, I'm all for using the right tool for the right job. At current I just don't think that Linux offers a good general-purpose desktop environment compared to Windows, OS X or even SGIs Open Magic. I'm not saying that it can't be used, just that there seems to be better choices out there and to ignore them just because they come from Microsoft is rather self-defeating. In general while I do try to use Linux and BSD because I like the development philosophies behind the projects I keep running into the problem that I have other platforms that can perform the task at hand better. Granted that's just me, he who lives in a rats nest of fiber optic cables and esoteric workstations. A good example of this is a web server I'm trying to build currently. I want to use Linux or BSD because the system has no video card, redirecting the BIOS information to serial instead (Intel ISP1100 system). However I also want to have a firewire card in the box so that I can quickly add more temp storage. Unfortunately non of the PCI cards I have around seem to work with the two operating systems. So I'm left with the choice of using Windows 2003 or buying more hardware.
After all's said and done I could definitely see myself using Linux as a primary desktop (I do like Gnome and KDE over most of the other UNIX GUIs out there, excepting that which comes from SGI) should the applications come along.

--

"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 18:03 · Score: 1

I'm happy to be informed if I'm wrong but *NIX & *BSD desktop system leave a bit to be desired in my opinion.

Ok, I'll inform you. You have some interesting points, but you are off on some.

Are there X drivers that fully support it?

Yup.

Will the kernel installed with the latest Mandrake distro support my graphics hardware fully?

Yup.

What if I want to learn a foreign language by running language learning software on my new PC: is there software available that I can use on a *NIX/*BSD desktop?

No idea actually. Let me google....

Well, not any software particular to install. I did find a neat website that teaches you foreign languages with web-based system using a java based audio player that worked fine. Dick and Jane computer user aren't going to be trying to learn a foreign language with their computer though.

Will I be able to run that game on my *NIX/*BSD desktop when it comes out?

Probably not. But the average computer user isn't playing games on their computer. They are checking their mail and surfing the net. Printing crap out. etc. Like I said, it's not right for everyone. Just MOST people.

Will I be able to watch DivX movies or will I have to install additional software?

Other than the DivX codecs that you'd have to install anyway on ANY OS, not really. Mplayer plays DivX fine.

What about if decide to subscribe to a bradband internet service: will the ISP's technician set it up for me if I'm not running windows?

They really won't have too. Mandrake sets up broadband on install. Even the the worst installer in the world (FreeBSD) asks you simple questions like "Want DHCP to detect your network settings?" and stuff like "Need PPPoE?". Unless the provider doesn't use open standards, and I don't know of any that don't at this point, you'll have absolutely no problem using *NIX with any broadband. The only exception I know of is DirecWay Satellite Internet because it's some strange hybrid phoneline/satelitte deal that relies on proprietary windows software. At least stateside, more broadband providers are getting Linux savvy. My Mother-In-Law had a problem with Cox cable, and the technician guy actually new Mandrake pretty well and had no problem futzing with it.

I use mandrake 9.1 at home. I am somewhat experienced with PCs and I've used many a linux distro. I've even built my own with LFS

Then you already knew the answers to most of the stuff you asked, or simply didn't know how easy it was.

That said, I think, as a desktop PC OS for consumers, windows is a better product than a unix-like running KDE or GNOME.

And that is a great opinion. And one you could even attempt to support. All I'm saying is that KDE on Mandrake is perfectly fine for MOST people. It has been for a while. Factor in the benefit of never having to worry about Email viruses and IE exploits and I'd even say they equal out.

Things "just work" under windows. Got new hardware? No problem.

You should probably read my earlier XP post. It was a bitch getting XP working. Things don't always "just work". They probably SHOULD just work considering it's something you are spending money on though.

Got new hardware? No problem.

True, but God help you if you have hardware that is a few years old and the manufacture never made XP drivers. Then unlike Linux where you have the options of rolling your own driver, or mentioning it, or simply waiting and someone will make one, you are simply screwed. See, there are two sides to that coin.

Want to run some niche-interest software? No worries. You're most like to find the "best of breed" product is windows software.

And the the reverse is true. There are a lot of programs that simply do not have *NIX counterparts in Windows. And unlike Linux where I can at least attempt to get some strange windows program (recently th

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 18:12 · Score: 1

If I'm a zealot, it's more like a zealot of opportunity. I do a lot of devils advocacy more than anything else. I tend to overreact for effect. I could almost sometimes be called *gasp!* a troll, but not quite. My other Slashdot ID is sawilson. I know you ended up on my friends list after one hell of a rant at one point, at least on that account. I got bored with the sawilson account, and decided to revive this one after taking a few years off from it.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:One day... by Talez · 2003-10-12 18:40 · Score: 1

Well usually you shut down the PS/2 ports to save the interrupts for something else.

After all, all USB devices on a hub share an interrupt. I put my keyboard, mouse and gamepads on the one hub because they don't need very much bandwidth or power. I use a cheap $10 passive hub and run them off the same USB port.

That leaves bandwidth and power to spare on the other port for things that need it like portable hard drives or scanners.
Re:One day... by Henry+Bone · 2003-10-12 19:02 · Score: 1

Ok, I'll inform you. You have some interesting points, but you are off on some.
No worries. Thanks. :-)
I agree that for productivity (openoffice.org, koffice, etc) and internet (mozilla, konqueror, kmail, evolution, etc) unix-like desktops are acceptable for the average user. If that's what you're saying then I agree.
You appear to be using the fact of the monopolistic hold that Microsoft has over the PC environment to justify a position negating Linux having any value as a desktop PC right now. And that's just bogus. I'm sorry. YOU USE Mandrake 9.1 at home.
I don't think that linux has no value as a desktop PC. I just see it as a bit limited. Entertainment hardware and software support being a limitation. The video editing software that accompanies the digital minicam still won't run under linux. As soon as an alternative has to be sourced that runs under linux , then linux looses that consumer ease of use test.
I contend that the general public are fairly interested in using their personal computers for entertainment and recreational purposes. I think that linux lets them down in this area. However, I will concede the possibility that these are my requirements and, MAYBE, are not that important to Dick & Jane.
Re:One day... by John+Leeming · 2003-10-12 19:15 · Score: 1

Wonder what this is going to do to the Teledesic project that Bill has been quietly funding for the past few years?

--
"Eustace? Eustace? Are you there? Are you there?" = John Leeming
Re:One day... by Bull999999 · 2003-10-12 19:56 · Score: 1

Maybe some people are moving away from MS software for different reasons. Would you shop at a store where they treat you like a shoplifter until proven otherwise? I did a major upgrade to my Windows machine and I had to reactivate both Windows and Office! I was able to reactivate Windows over the Net without any problems (there is a limit to this, however), but I had to call MS to reactivate the Office. I had to explain why I needed to reactivate the Office to the rep before she gave me the code to finish the reactivation. I guess that's same as having to ask for the permission of MS if you want to upgrade your hardware.

My question is, why are people putting up with this crap? Don't you realize that this will get worse? Comsumers stood up to Intuit when they added the activiation feature to its products and Intuit backed off. If enough comsumers stood up to MS, they too, will back off.

--
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Re:One day... by sh10051 · 2003-10-12 19:58 · Score: 1

Excellent post. It does take some time to get used to the way of thinking in Linux. And you have those windows apps you have used for years and really like. I had 5 or 6 that I found hard to give up, and couldnt immediately find a suitable free replacement, so I was slow to fully embrace linux.

Eventually you find replacements for those apps, not substitutes but replacements that are free in every sense of the word.

Then you find it hard to go back to your old favourite apps :*)
Re:One day... by DFJA · 2003-10-12 23:09 · Score: 1

The US has always insisted on doing things it's own way, while the rest of the world works together to be interoperable with each other. Look at GSM cellphones, where the US is now playing catchup. Or NTSC/PAL, where most of the rest of the world uses a better standard (for what it was originally designed at least). The US is such a big market that it doesn't have a great need to work with the rest of the world.

So here, the rest of the world is moving on as it does not want to be held to ransom by a foreign company taking it's dollars for computer operating systems and software (or Euros, or Pounds or whatever) and is gradually moving towards a common standard which, incidentally, can support local businesses rather than foreign ones.

I guess the US government will simply carry on down it's own path, in this case paying a local company (MS) so the money stays in the country. Only when the rest of the world has become standardised on open source and open standards will the US govt stop and think, hang on, we're missing a trick here. Even then, it may not care as it will be paying a local company. Lack of interoperability with the rest of the world has never been much of an issue in the US.

--
43 - For those who require slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything.
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 23:15 · Score: 0

Teledesic looks like that project "Bill" was working on in "Anti-Trust."
Re:One day... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 04:29 · Score: 0

As someone who's tried switching from Windows to Linux, I have to say that's very true. Though I'm not so much about "freakin' zealots", it's very very different and the GUI offered, though looking like Windows, doesn't allow for you to do things the same way at all. That's why I'm running Windows right now.

Do you think a we can get a state to switch? by mistert2 · 2003-10-12 14:34 · Score: 2, Funny

Maybe we should ask Rhode Island, or California (Looks like they will try anything once.)

Re:Do you think a we can get a state to switch? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:11 · Score: 0

Massachusetts has already chimed in on Open Source.
Re:Do you think a we can get a state to switch? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:31 · Score: 0

New Hampshire would be the best bet-- their state motto is "Live Free or Die" so if they aren't Linux users they should be.

For every one of these i see... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:35 · Score: 0

For every one of these i see, a big smile is painted across my face. The more people that use it, the more chance it has of success. I can only imagine what Microsoft is thinking now!

/ok, well i guess this is -1 redundant. Therefore i will post A/C.

Re:For every one of these i see... by taozilla · 2003-10-12 15:21 · Score: 0

I know,

Steve: I don't know Bill, do you really think it is a good idea to post all of these fake messages about how much OS/2 crashes, after all IBM is a big company?

Bill: Sure, by the time we get done with them, they will never get behind a consumer operating system again! >

Risk Board by Drakon · 2003-10-12 14:35 · Score: 1

is anyone else imagining a risk board with a plaque of Linus's quote-
"World Domination- Fast."
on the bottom, and BillGatus of Borg on the top?

--
Buttsex.

Re:Risk Board by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:54 · Score: 0

Nope, it's just you.
Re:Risk Board by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 17:10 · Score: 0

Good idea!
Re:Risk Board by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 17:41 · Score: 0

I think that might be the GEEKIEST suggestion ever.
On Slashdot.
Bravo.

What I want to know .... by El+Cubano · 2003-10-12 14:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

is, given that we are seeing lots of governments adopting or considering adopting F/OSS, how long before document and data interchange in its current form (read: MS Office) becomes enough of a hassle that consumers and businesses will demand software that conforms to open data interchange standards?

Re:What I want to know .... by Sevn · 2003-10-12 15:23 · Score: 1

Short answer?

A long damn time.

Long answer?

Microsoft has built a business based on vendor lockin. They have done this by "embracing and extending" open standards. They are even going to far as to try to do the same thing to motherboard bios. Expect a very long and nasty fight. If they were to start getting crap from German, the UK, and Brazil because MS Office doesn't support OpenOffice, their response would likely be something along the lines of "We'll offer you a great deal on MS Office" or "*the finger* we told you so". Microsoft is very very good at not being at fault for things.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:What I want to know .... by Daniel+Phillips · 2003-10-12 21:54 · Score: 3, Informative

given that we are seeing lots of governments adopting or considering adopting F/OSS, how long before document and data interchange in its current form (read: MS Office) becomes enough of a hassle that consumers and businesses will demand software that conforms to open data interchange standards?

The problem is, there isn't really a suitable format for office documents available just now. The leading candidate there is probably the OASIS Open Office XML Format standardization effort, however I have no idea if that project is progressing in a timely way.

--
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Re:What I want to know .... by Tony-A · 2003-10-12 21:57 · Score: 1

Shorter answer?
As soon as government mandated reports, filings, etc. are required to be filed in readable formats.

Microsoft is very very good at not being at fault for things.
Have been. It's starting to catch up with them. In fact, "Always blame Microsoft" is a surprisingly effective strategy. It's not dumb user that click on things they shouldn't, it's Microsoft subtly and not-so-subtly telling them to click on everything.

We are getting closer to Antarctica... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:39 · Score: 4, Funny

Which is Tux's natural home, after all.

Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by cpthowdy · 2003-10-12 15:31 · Score: 1

Acutally, Tux's home is in Provo, Utah since Novell is now the owner of the logo's copyright (cause they bought Ximian...)
Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:20 · Score: 0

You mean the arctic. There are no penguins in antarctica. There is no life there at all, in fact, apart from bacteria in some underground lakes.
Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:57 · Score: 0

You mean the 4-foot tall "Emperor Penguin" bacteria? Do a Google search for penguins and Antarctica (or just Antarctic) and you'll get ~62K hits, complete with pictures and descriptions of their habitat, which is *way* south of the border.
Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by Sri+Lumpa · 2003-10-12 17:12 · Score: 1

Huh? The original Tux design was created by Larry Ewing with "Permission to use and/or modify this image is granted provided you acknowledge me lewing@isc.tamu.edu and The GIMP if someone asks."

I really doubt that he transfered his copyright to Ximian given that there is no need for that so you are most probably mistaken and Ximian only has the copyright to some derivative of Tux, like anyone making a new image with Tux (but if you are right I would like to have more info about it).

--
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by cpthowdy · 2003-10-13 02:07 · Score: 1

Sorry, I'm right, you're wrong. It happens.
Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by Artifakt · 2003-10-13 02:12 · Score: 1

Yes, penguins are found in Antarctica. They're also found in Brazil. Several species are known to come swimming into the harbor at Rio De Janero and other port cities up the eastern coast of South America on regular occasions. They look very odd tanning on the beaches in 80 degree (F) weather. They often migrate up and down the coast. Interestingly, they don't seem to time migrations to a strict winter/summer cycle. Sometimes they head south as it gets colder (spring in the southern hemisphere) While we are at it, I live 500 miles from an ocean, but there are seagulls within 5 miles of me, in the wild. Birds! go figure.

--
Who is John Cabal?
Re:We are getting closer to Antarctica... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 03:48 · Score: 0

You've given no proof. So I can't conclude that you are are right or wrong. I can, however, conclude you're an asshole.

like the metric system by ron_ivi · 2003-10-12 14:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

The US seems to like hanging on while the rest of the world moves on.

Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:56 · Score: 0

It's not just the US. Small wannabe countries like NZ are still stuck on in it too. "Follow the money" seems to apply, and businesses here seem to think the US has some so they must be right. Damn business mentality...
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:59 · Score: 0

It's all about class. The metric system is scientific and therefore vulgar. Why would you want to use it?
Re:like the metric system by quacking+duck · 2003-10-12 15:02 · Score: 1

That's news to me. I was in NZ just recently and everything was in metric as far as I could tell. Ditto Australia. Definitely more metric than Canada even, where we still get store produce listed in $/lb (sometimes $/kg is printed alongside).
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:09 · Score: 1, Interesting

The metric system, while more consistent than the English system of measurement, is far from being the best possible system. Planck units are more "scientific" and both base-6 and base-12 systems are better for counting than base ten. If you really want to tilt at windmills, why not try to get the U.S. to adopt Planck units scaled to a power of twelve? It would be better in many ways than SI, and might even appeal to Americans' desire to be first :)
Re:like the metric system by guru_Stew · 2003-10-12 15:18 · Score: 1

(American comment)
Metrix System? New Zealand ? never heard of them!
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:28 · Score: 0

You should pronounce it "Newzi Land" and it's inhabitants "Newzi's" -- that's right, an entire country of reporters. Oh, and sheep, mustn't forget the sheep.
Re:like the metric system by ThePeices · 2003-10-12 15:36 · Score: 1

you fool, NZ has been metric for decades. Damn American mentality.
Re:like the metric system by Nept · 2003-10-12 15:49 · Score: 1

well, we're not really a developing country like the others mentioned in this article are. I think the term "stagnating country" is the mot juste.

--
"Teachers leave us kids alone ..." - Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:50 · Score: 0

Using "standard" measurements instead of metric ones keeps your brain sharp. For example, how far in furlongs, yards, feet, and inches is 80% of a mile?

Of course, I miss the old British currency: farthing, halfpenny, penny (beautiful great wagon wheels of copper!), tuppence, threepence, sixpence, shilling, florin (two shillings), half-crown (2 shillings and sixpence), ten shilling note, pound note, and gold guinea (21 shillings).

Ah, you young whipper-snappers with your fancy calculators and decimals! No need to actually think any more!

As a Yank who received part of his education in England (between the years 1964 and 1971) at Broussa (Hale) and Elmridge (Hale Barns) Primary Schools, and Altrincham Grammar School for Boys I have a foot in both worlds and can appreciate the differences.
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:23 · Score: 0

This is typically the kind of comments that reflects this awful mentality a lot of US people have and drive the rest of the world against you. So keep on doing that and please do me a great favour, stay in your country! I'm sure you think it's the best so why should you experience what the rest of the world has to offer.... Sorry one needs a brain to realize that, I overestimated you for a while
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:51 · Score: 0

I am a New Zealander, and we have been metric since the late 60s.

The only thing that is informally measured in feet and inches is the height of a person. Everything else is metric

This discussion on metric is way off topic though, and should be modded as flame bait as there are enough people on both sides of the fence who are entrenched that nothing is going to be gained in arguing the toss.
Re:like the metric system by ron_ivi · 2003-10-12 17:03 · Score: 1

Actually, I like the "standard" system; and think it's easier on my mind.
Much easier to split feet or yards into 3 even pieces than trying the same with meters. I don't understand why society never migrated towards base-12 or 60.
Re:like the metric system by lemonparty.org · 2003-10-12 17:04 · Score: 0

Our mail system already runs on Linux.
Re:like the metric system by G-funk · 2003-10-12 18:14 · Score: 1

I don't understand why society never migrated towards base-12 or 60

Er, because we have 10 fingers?

--
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 18:26 · Score: 0

Fer christs sake, I was talking about MICROSOFT, not the metric system. I have to wonder if Slashdotters are this obtuse on purpose...
Re:like the metric system by IAR80 · 2003-10-12 19:35 · Score: 1

Why bases 6 & 12? I thought 16 would be nice. We are counting in hex anyway. :)

--
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 20:33 · Score: 0

The problem with base-6 and base-12 system is that we have base-10 number system...
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 20:53 · Score: 0

Well I'm Elmer Redneck from Hicksville, Alabama. I've got twelve fingers, just like me Paw, and his Paw afore him. So don't you come sassing around here with your fancy schmancy 10 fingured counting schemes young upstart.
Re:like the metric system by cmorriss · 2003-10-13 03:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Before you go putting down the U.S. government for not dropping everything to make a very public switch to Open Source, consider that Microsoft is based in the U.S. Do you think Brazil would be doing the same thing if Microsoft were based out of Rio de Janeiro?

--
10 minutes working on a sig. What a waste.
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 07:22 · Score: 0

Red Hat, IBM, and even Linus Torvalds are in the US too. The US doesn't have to switch to SUSE or Yellow Flag. There are plenty of Linux vendors here.
In fact, with much of Microsoft's development happening by cheap and good engineers in India, I suspect it'd be better for the US economy if it did pick local Linux vendors.
Re:like the metric system by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 07:25 · Score: 0

Division by three.
Quick..
A third of a foot is X inches.
A third of a yard is Y inches.
A third of a meter is what?!? Yuck.
Re:like the metric system by IAR80 · 2003-10-13 08:38 · Score: 1

A third of a meter is a third of a meter. BTW what is the 7th of a yard?

--
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
Re:like the metric system by turkeyphant · 2003-10-13 08:47 · Score: 1

They both have much greater number of common divisors:base unit ratios.

12: 12, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1.
6: 6, 3, 2, 1.

10: 10, 5, 2, 1.

--
Turkeyphant

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:45 · Score: 0

Ok, Bill, shouldn't you be in your office fixing the security holes in your product, or at least counting your billions like Scrooge McDuck?

Welcome to GNU GVideo GProfessor! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:46 · Score: 0, Funny

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Re:Welcome to GNU GVideo GProfessor! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 17:21 · Score: 0

Wow!

This sounds great! Just what I need to enhance my GNU/Linux skills! Three questions however:

1) How can I place my order?

2) Do I get a new revised copy when SCO/Linux and SCO/Emacs SCO/gcc et al replace the GNU/Linux, GNU/Emacs, and GNU/gcc ?

3) Is there information on getting Counter Strike running on GNU software?
Thanks,

"Raptah"

ENOUGH ALREADY!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:49 · Score: 0

Jesus Christ, this is the second "story" today about some government considering switching to Linux. And about the thousandth story this year. Who gives a shit if someone considers using Linux? Are they using it yet? No. Did they outfit every computer in the state with Linux. No. Will they finally decide to switch. Probably not. Yet stories like these get front page coverage almost daily on Slashdot. Give me a freaking break.

Call me Kreskin by bogie · 2003-10-12 14:51 · Score: 2, Funny

Next week the Brazilian Government will get fat check for $300 Million for its schools and government. Next they will the option to purchase Windows Xp and Office 2003 for the low low price of two coconuts.

Letters of intent to develop initiatives probably won't mean much once MS is done with them. Let's hope IBM can keep their foot in the door.

--
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch

Re:Call me Kreskin by gustgr · 2003-10-12 14:56 · Score: 0

Let's hope IBM can keep their foot in the door.

IBM seems to be a great allied (keeping their own interests of course)

At my university a partnership with IBM will result in two IBM powered labs running Linux.
Re:Call me Kreskin by axxackall · 2003-10-12 15:02 · Score: 1

I remember IBM PS/2s running Windows everywhere in all Russian goverment buildings. The conditions os all deals smelled like a fish too.
Well, let's see if IBM will be a good boy in this game.

--

Less is more !
Re:Call me Kreskin by PhiberOptix · 2003-10-12 15:11 · Score: 1

ok Kreskin, contrary to what you think, here in Brazil the local currency is not coconuts, but Real (R$), aka "gay money*".

*obligatory simpsons quote
Re:Call me Kreskin by k-s · 2003-10-12 15:19 · Score: 2, Informative

No, you're partially wrong.

Yes, maybe we get a check from M$.

But NO, we will not use it, as expected. I say that because this time we have the right person in the right place, and the person is there. So, forget. I know the guy, the guy is my friend and I can surely say that this time we move.

BTW, it was already happening... it's just confirmed right now. It's not something like others "We're evaluating the possibilities... by far 2010 we will move". It's going on!

http://www.softwarelivre.gov.br/
http://psl-sp. softwarelivre.org/
http://www.softwarelivre.org/

IE: We have one of the big projects to take people to the internet, it's called "Telecentros", which uses LTSP (http://www.ltsp.org), Gnome, Mozilla, and OpenOffice.org to provide FREE internet access to +250,000 users (almost all are poor people that never had a chance to use computers in their lives).

Also, just to explain to people who didn't understand it yet: That is NOT related to TCO, license fees... it's about freedom. Freedom to let your people live. We give a shit about TCO, "de facto" standards (M$), ... but we give a lot of value to FREEDOM. But if you don't know what is freedom anymore... I'm sorry, you really will not understand what I am saying...

Yours truly,

Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
Re:Call me Kreskin by rcastro0 · 2003-10-12 15:22 · Score: 2, Informative

Next week the Brazilian Government will get fat check for $300 Million for its schools and government. Next they will the option to purchase Windows Xp and Office 2003 for the low low price of two coconuts.

Very good point!

Yet I believe the odds for Linux in Brazil today are much better than one would expect from looking the same country a year ago, or from looking at other Latin American countries.

In the last semester of 2002 a new president, named Lula, was elected in Brazil. He is the first left-wing president to have a chance of finishing a mandate (democratic institutions being now more solid than in the sixties). So, President Lula comes from the left, from the traditional government opposition, and his party, PT- Partido dos Trabalhadores (Worker's Party) has always had a discourse and a posture which included:

1) Anti-Corruption
2) Antagonism with big corporations and
3) Nationalism

If you add the three points above, and give them some credit, you will see why I am optimistic about the chances of Linux threading forth in Brazil. I do not want to advocate that those guys (or anyone) will "do the right thing"(TM).

But there is certainly room for hope.

--
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.

That's pretty good... by gustgr · 2003-10-12 14:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

I am brazilian and I am glad to read that but even without the reading we can notice that the Gov. is increasing their support for Linux. I have already installed and configured several servers for brazilian's governament departaments and this is increasing more and more.

We are an under development country but some deveopled contry should learn a little from us.

Re:That's pretty good... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 19:32 · Score: 0

It is a fucking free country, anyone can install anything they want - no need to "promote" anything, people will choose as they see fit.

I wonder... by inode_buddha · 2003-10-12 14:58 · Score: 1

How high will Mr. Ballmer jump? How quickly can he shout "Developers!"? Maybe this will motivate him to do the encore I'm stil waiting for... it renders beautifully with mplayer, I keep them around for test clips.

--
C|N>K

SUCKIT, FUCKIT, and CHUCKIT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:59 · Score: 0

Get this shit of my laptop now!

I vote for a reformed slashdot. Who wants to vote for me? Send spam to pater@slashdot.org

Re:One day... like Imperial vs. Metric? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 14:59 · Score: 0

Judging from our continued use of the British system while (I think) every other country except one uses metric... I'm not very optimistic that we'll let go of MS software anytime soon!

Free Software = Big Bucks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:01 · Score: 0

With the weakening dollar, and astronomical trade imbalances, the US will be getting more for the free software that it exports. The US made the smart decision to close all the factories and concentrate on services, because they knew the reall future is in exporting free software.

Not only that, with the devaluation of the dollar, the amount that we will get for free software could easily double in the upcoming years!!!!

Ah yes, by Sevn · 2003-10-12 15:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

I know what that sound is. It is the sound of a thousand Microsoft Apologists typing on their keyboards. But they are NOT in fact recreating the complete works of shakespeare. They are preparing to click in the submit button. They'll have enlighting things to say like:

This means nothing.

This is a publicity stunt.

Microsoft will stop them.

They are just trying to save money.

Balmer will be on a plane.

They'll offer huge discounts.

I hurt my winky.

And so on. In the end the thing that escapes them is the fact that things like this are happening at all is significant. It is a displayed desire to change things. :) And that my friends is very cool indeed.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.

Re:Ah yes, by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:06 · Score: 0

Yeah - substitute IBM for MS; what a revolution! Big business for big business!
You just don't get it BUT that's okay.
Re:Ah yes, by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:30 · Score: 0

And so the thousands of windows apologist on Slashdot nowadays begins with this troll. The first shot has been fired.

List by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:12 · Score: 0

Somebody should do up a list of all the national governments that are NOT pushing FLOSS. It would be a pretty short list, and getting shorter all the time.

Of course, the last to change will be the US. Does Bush even use a computer? He strikes me as the type who doesn't. We should have elected Gore (no, he didn't invent the internet, but he was one of the first in congress to realize how important it was going to be, and sponsored legislation to help it along).

We should ask the present Democratic presidential hopefuls what their positions on FLOSS are.

Re:List by cfuse · 2003-10-12 16:18 · Score: 1

Does Bush even use a computer?
Does a speak-n-spell count?
Re:List by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 20:43 · Score: 0

Actually its a 'simple simon'

give me a break by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:12 · Score: 0

hey give me a break, it's the first time
in 5 years that I get a first post.

=)

New evangelism tactic! by leonbrooks · 2003-10-12 15:15 · Score: 1

the U.S. will be running Microsoft software, and the rest of the world will not

So the new FOSS evangelism tactic is:

Leader of the pack, or Johnny-come-lately?
Will your country be the last to adopt Open Source?

Your alternative proposal is not realistic. Naturally.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:17 · Score: 1, Insightful

Denial ain't just a river...

Neither is SoBig, Slammer, Blaster, or the HL2 source being stolen through a buffer overflow in Outlook.

Of course it's all about choice. When was the last time a Windows XP install asked you which programs you wanted to install? When was the last time you installed Windows XP and didn't need to ever download and install another program because everything you needed to do all your work was included, for free, on the install cd? Linux is only as bloated as your ineptitude allows it to become.

The revolution will be blogged.

now we know why you're not first post... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:17 · Score: 0

now we know why you're not first post...
Man it took you 10 minutes to write that essay...
shame on you, next time, try to write 10 characters, maybe you'll have a chance.

Peace!

Re:give me a break (No such break: YOU FAIL IT!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:23 · Score: 0

Dude, you got another 5 years coming because YOU FAIL IT HORRIBLY!

Seriously, there's like, TWENTY POSTS before yours.
Sorry, really really sorry.

Hmmm, maybe if I put my threshold at +6 and make you my friend, you'll show up as first post...

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:26 · Score: 1, Interesting

Actually, I have to sort of agree with this post. The last few versions of Mandrake and RH I've tried do seem to be a bit bloated. I was forced to install Win2K on a machine and it seems lean and mean in comparison. Of course, it's 3 years old, and compared with Linux from 3 years ago, it was probably bloatware.

IBM by spudchucker · 2003-10-12 15:29 · Score: 0

I Soviet Russia IBM, . . . huh, Brazil?
I for one welcome our blue penguin overlords.

Somewhere in Utah by OzBeserk · 2003-10-12 15:31 · Score: 1

An uninformed monkey boy rubs his hands with glee.

Yeah, just wipe the truth under the rug, mods by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:31 · Score: 0

I *dare* you to refute a word of what I have said!

I second this post! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:31 · Score: 0

The GLAA parliament is in session! ORDER in this goatse! ORDER! Do you bite your tongue at me, Esquire Tubgirl?

Re:I second this post! by EugeneK · 2003-10-12 16:55 · Score: 1

I do bite my thumb, but I do not bite my thumb at you sir.

So Kreskin, can you answer a question for me? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:35 · Score: 0

Is it true *BSD is dying?

GNU/Penis by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:46 · Score: 0

I just installed GNU/Penis

Re:GNU/Penis by bulbul · 2003-10-12 16:40 · Score: 1

Well, for a newbie i have to commend you for at least using the correct terminology. So many people are going around saying things like "i use Penis" instead of "i use GNU/Penis". Well, let me tell you something, "Penis" isn't a complete system without all of the other free tools provided by GNU.

Of course, as others have pointed out here, Penis isn't always the right tool for the job... but it often is. Penis usability and training issues are often exagerated. Sometimes the users aren't even aware that they're using Penis! (Oops, i meant GNU/Penis. Sorry.)
Re:GNU/Penis by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 23:53 · Score: 0

Indeed. I use GNU/Penis with Vaginella. Thank God I have the home version of Vaginella. I checked out the professional pay-per-use version once (Vaginella/Professional) but it really sucks. There's so much you can do with the Vaginella/Home Edition that you can't with Vaginella/Professional. V/H prompts you whenever it wants to communicate with GNU/Penis for FREE. V/P doesn't. V/P requires that you pay a usage fee up front before it engages GNU/Penis. The only problem with V/H is that sometimes it can be very, very verbose with extraneous output that has nothing to do with GNU/penis. A good set of well thought out filters and autoresponse rules take care of that problem. If you got GNU/Penis then I urge you not to use it manually. Get Vaginella! It makes a difference and you will never want to go back to running GNU/Penis manually. Here's a GNU/PENIS script for use with Vaginella: tits = vg->parent->findComponent(TITS); if (!tits): puts ('aborting... mastectomy detected. no tits!'); gp->shutdown(); endif; while (not vg->isMoist()): vg->parent->->sweettalk(); tits->rub(); tits->squeeze; tits->lick(); endwhile; vg->insert(gp): whil e (not gp->readyToClimax()): gp->thrust() endwhile; gp->ejaculate();

Come on moderators. by Idou · 2003-10-12 15:48 · Score: 1

InsightfuL? Okay, Windows let's YOU get YOUR work done, but UK, Russia, and Brazil think there is the possibility that they can get work down on another platform.

Personally, I do not consider your inablity to separate your needs with the needs of the rest of the world as "insightful."

--
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Simple-Simmian · 2003-10-12 15:50 · Score: 1

Thanks for the info Bill.

--
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?

MOD PARENT DOWN, FLAMEBAIT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 15:56 · Score: 0

MOD PARENT DOWN, FLAMEBAIT

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:03 · Score: 0

I think i will address your essay point by point. 1. Linux is good for old computers. You point out that ....... ah fuckit - not going to waste my time.

FUCk, his name was Ebeneazer Scrooge! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:06 · Score: 0

Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinamen would be entertained by. Scrooge McDuck is plagiarism! STop forcing everyone to remember such a shit animation! Ebeneazer Scrooge is the name of the banker in the classic novel!Stop pulling that wad of Disney IP out of your hairy rectal pie hole! Ebeneazer Scrooge is an original, and Disney plagiarized the idea by adding a bunch of talking animals only hungry and starving Chinam

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by bersl2 · 2003-10-12 16:11 · Score: 1

The last few versions of Mandrake and RH I've tried do seem to be a bit bloated.

This is what is best about Linux and OSS. You don't have to use Mandrake or Red Hat. If it's too bloated for you, go with Debian, Gentoo, Slackware, or any number of distros.

You are free to modularized to your heart's content. If something isn't to your taste, replace it with something else. Usually with no financial cost and only a minimal to moderate time and effort cost.

Microsoft isn't worried... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:16 · Score: 1, Funny

They've always got Macedonia.

Re:Microsoft isn't worried... by dab74 · 2003-10-13 15:11 · Score: 1

Maybe. But brazilian market is a lot bigger.

No, I dare you... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:17 · Score: 0

I *dare* you to refute a word of what I have said!

No, I dare you to back up what you said and provide numbers, links and evidence for your trash-talk.

MOD PARENT DOWN FLAMEBAIT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:20 · Score: 0

Flamebait alert! This is a perfect example of dictionairy flamebait. No arguments, just insults to the majority. Author doesn't want to debate, just wants to stir the hornet's nest...

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN FLAMEBAIT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:31 · Score: 0

Shh, you schistose fag, you'll spoil everything!

Photo editing by melted · 2003-10-12 16:21 · Score: 1

Uh-uh, wake me up when GIMP supports 48bit color. Quicken is total POS when compared to MS Money. OO is total POS when compared to Office XP and Mozilla, KMail are total POS when compared to even Outlook Express. Sure they are free, but this is their only advantage.

Re:Photo editing by Sevn · 2003-10-12 17:29 · Score: 1

That's a lot of opinion you have going there. I have some of my own. The old WordPerfect programs were a lot better laid out than anything Microsoft has done, but you are right. Office XP is a little better than OO. OO does everything I need though. I prefer XP definitely though. Me thinks you are being too critical. Mozilla Firebird is simply better than IE and Thunderbird is slightly better than Outlook Express not even taking security into consideration. Kmail is a sweet little email client also, but probably not as good as Outlook Express. Thunderbird is hands down my favorite right now. I have it set up to check mail for 6 email boxes and sort the mail. 2 SSL IMAP with mbox format, 1 SSL IMAP with maildir format, 1 regular pop3, 1 pop3 with SSL, and a local spool. It hasn't given me a single problem yet. Very very powerful configuration options, very simple to use. Big pretty buttons. I've never used MS Money, but I'm not a very huge Quicken fan either. As for 48bit color, I have no idea why you'd need that. Not to say there isn't a very valid reason, it's just not my thing. :) As long as I can do color gradients without a shitty stairstep effect, I'm happy. You can do that with 24 or 32 bit color. I'd have to agree that Photoshop is a lot better, but I'd also say that photoshop was perfectly fine for my limited needs at version 4.X. Gimp takes a little longer to get used to, but has an awesome online tutorial to get you aclimated and pretty much does anything I need to do. I'm not a serious graphics professional though as most of us aren't. :) I just make some stuff for web pages, maybe throw together an animated gift or some transparent thingy. It does all that just fine. You are seriously understating the advantage of free. Especially with the photoshop/gimp thing. Some warez kiddy can say something like "photoshop is free dude OMG!!! R0XX3RS!!!!!" but I'm not one of those. I'd actually pay for it. Since I can come up with professional looking results with Gimp, or povray, or blender, I'm probably going to use those since they are free.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:Photo editing by Bombcar · 2003-10-12 18:57 · Score: 1

From what I've heard, using 48 bit color (16 bits per R/G/B) prevents the histogram from getting washed out when applying filters. Standard 24 bit color only gives you 256 different intensities for each color, which can make the image look washed out after a filter.

But what do I know?

--
Fellowship 9/11
Re:Photo editing by Bull999999 · 2003-10-12 19:29 · Score: 1

Geo Metro is a total POS when compared to Corvett. Why would people bother to buy Metro when they can get a Corvett? I guess money does matter after all.

--
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Re:Photo editing by Sevn · 2003-10-12 22:19 · Score: 1

More than me apparently. :)

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:24 · Score: 0

And then your blog will be DoS'ed and defaced.

Get off my fucking internet, you web-spammer, you polluter of search engines, you foul self-aggrandizing blogger.

CounterCulture by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:26 · Score: 0

If linux went mainstream what would you be using?

Great! Yet another by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:32 · Score: 0

Government ramming open sores down our throats. Oh, no being free can't get your software used, might as well have a legal mandate.

Supporting Linux? by t0ny · 2003-10-12 16:42 · Score: 1

Brazil has become the latest country this week to show its support for Linux.

Sounds more like they are showing their support for IBM to me.

--

Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

Brasil e uma merda by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:42 · Score: 0

Eu vivo nessa porra de pais que elegeu um analfabeto como Presidente. Aqui so tem vagabundo e ladrao, por isso me dou tao bem. Sonego impostos e nao estou nem ai. Porra, vai tomar no cu. Linux e uma bosta.

Question: Imperial Electricity Units? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:43 · Score: 0

What are imperial units for:
0. Electric Potential
1. Quantity of electricity
2. Electric current
3. magnetic peremeability
4. Magnetic field
5. Magnetic induction
6 Magnetic Flux
7. The Poynting-Umov tensor
8. Dypole Mommentum
9. Polarizability
etc, etc, many other units I am too lazy to list right now

Re:Question: Imperial Electricity Units? by ortholattice · 2003-10-12 18:43 · Score: 1

Most of these are derived units. There are only 7 base units from which all the others can be derived. Here is one possibility:
Units: metric Imperial
Length: meter furlong
Mass: kg stone
Time: second fortnight
Charge: coulomb franklin
Temperature: centigrade farenheit
Illuminance: lux foot-candle
Quantity: mole gross
And yes, the franklin is a precisely defined unit: there are exactly 2997.92 franklins in a nanocoulomb. Look it up sometime to improve you education. While I'm not an expert at its history, I would imagine it has something to do with a standardized kite connected to a Leiden jar.
Some of these are definitely more practical for everyday use. I mean, if you just want 12 dozen pencils, quick: how many moles would that be? Really, it depends on what your job is. For example, a computer scientist would find the beowulf cluster to be a more practical unit than a mole.

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:46 · Score: 0

I love it when people have such strong opinions but are afraid to admit it (AC).

Yea but... by LnxAddct · 2003-10-12 16:46 · Score: 1

When is IBM going to pledge to develop initiatives that will promote the use of Linux in the US? No this isn't a troll or anything, I just hope that IBM has a good plan (which i'm sure they do considering that their IBM), its just I currently don't see the U.S. government (as a whole) showing any interest in switching over to Open Source. Is IBM just trying to get the rest of the world to change so that the US is forced to change? It sounds great in theory, but whose the only country that still measures in feet and miles, whereas the rest of the world uses the metric system? And who went to war with like 90% of the world against us? I would love to see the US switch over, but when it comes to certain things, the US is very very stubborn. Just my 2 cents. Cheers, Steve

Re:Yea but... by Bull999999 · 2003-10-12 19:36 · Score: 1

Since MS is a US company, a non-US government would have more incentives to switch than the US government.

--
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Re:Yea but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 19:41 · Score: 0

Is IBM just trying to get the rest of the world to change so that the US is forced to change?

No. They're selling wherever they can. It's a business. They do sell in the US, they make massive amounts of money in the US. If they can sell Linux systems to the US Government then they will, just like they will to the Japanese Government or The Finnish Government if they can. But if the US Goverment isn't interested then that doesn't dictate their approach everywhere else.

To think that an international company selling things internationally is doing so in order to pressure your own government is so hopelessly parochial as to be absurd. IBM can sell in the UK, so they are. IBM can sell in Brasil, so they are. IBM can and does sell in the US too. They're not playing a little nationalistic game, though they'll happily play along with all the governments who are.
Re:Yea but... by SmallFurryCreature · 2003-10-12 19:51 · Score: 1

One of the reasons some goverments are look at linux is that they don't like to see the money they spend on IT going directly abroad to foreign companies, taking money away from local industry. To the US of course this does not apply. MS is the local industry. Instead by using Linux they would be sending money to foreign companies like ehm IBM. Eh.
Well anyway US goverment has one less incentive then the rest of the world to want to become less dependent on microsoft.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Re:Yea but... by bhima · 2003-10-12 20:39 · Score: 1

I think you need to correct your sig!
MS/SCO/Sun/United States Federal Government
Now THAT is an 'axis of Evil'(tm)

--
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Se fode babaca by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 16:46 · Score: 0

Lula e um merda. Seu bosta. Acha que ele esta fazendo alguma coisa? Puta que pariu. Otario mesmo.

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by HermanAB · 2003-10-12 16:53 · Score: 1

Nice troll...

--
Oh well, what the hell...

What decision? by RLiegh · 2003-10-12 16:56 · Score: 1

I know that for the computer I have (cheap gateway home box) I don't have ps/2 ports. Or serial ports. Or parallel ports.

It also took me 2 years to get onto the internet with linux (fucking weird belkin modules) and I still have to use windows for my usb pen camera and my hp deskjet 3520.

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by LnxAddct · 2003-10-12 17:15 · Score: 2, Informative

Well the fact that your posting as Anonymous Coward automatically takes away any credibility that you had. But lets pretend that you did post like a man...or a woman (i've never met a man so bitchy so i'm forced to wonder). I've successfully installed linux on the crapiest and oldest computers that i've ever had my hands on. Its always runs like a baby if you know what your doing. And dont knock the command line, its more powerul then a gui could ever imagine. Regardless, linux wasn't made for gui's and if u want, there are great patches that increase responsivness in the gui. Also linux is becoming more and more the choice for embeded applications because it isn't bloatware like windows. Linux is faster and made to do real work that requires power and detail, often times gui's hide most of the detail or make it hard to get to. Linux not only is faster, smaller, and more secure, but you can configure it however you want. And the best part is, if its still not small enough for you, you can go edit the source and take out whatever you want. Well i'm gonna stop wasting my time now and try to forget about your ignorant post while I sleep. You go have fun getting infected with your unbloated Internet explorer (ha) and get taken over by some script kiddie with some activex thing he wrote up while on the crapper, or go check your email with outlook and be sure to open up that one that says "I love you", or better yet, just keep your computer on long enough and the next RPC vulnerability will eventually come around and get you. As for me, I'm sticking with linux. Oh yea and one more thing, WinXP boots so fast because of you computer specs, go try and install WinXP on a computer from '97, and when you fail miserably, install linux so you have a good working computer that is compatible and capable of doing modern things. -Steve

One Day, Linux will be dominant in Brazil by reporter · 2003-10-12 17:46 · Score: 1

Linux and other open-source software have a good chance of beating out Windows and commercial software in the Brazilian market simply because Windows and other commercial software is not free there. According to "Tracking Software Piracy Around the World", the rate of software piracy in Brazil is 50%. Half of the copies of Windows and other commercial software installed on machines in Brazil were actually paid by the user.

By contrast, the rate of software piracy in China (which includes Taiwan province and Hong Kong) is about 93%. In short, the Chinese simply steal any software that they do not wish to buy.

The adoption rate of Linux and open-source software in Brazil will be much higher than the rate in China. IBM has made a good strategic move by investing in Brazil. Other American companies should follow suit: divert investments away from China and into Brazil.

... from the desk of the reporter

The point is... by BrunoC · 2003-10-12 17:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

Guys... the whole point is: Brazil is a *poor* country! (Yes, I was born and raised in Brasil) We're a poor but *huge* country with *lots* of government driven agencies and government funded companies. It's quite simple: Linux is very suitable for government funded companies/agencies/whatever and it is *free*! It saves us money and we really need that money. The whole poit is: Linux (or any other free software {as in beer} for that matter) saves us a *lot* of money. Is not that our president loves Linus or Stallman, we just want to save some penny, and that's what it is.

Re:The point is... by iksrazal_br · 2003-10-13 01:34 · Score: 1

Brasil is *not* a poor country. I live in Sao Paulo, and there are lots well-to-do people. There is, however, a huge difference between rich and poor. You can say there are lots of poor people and high unemployment. Yet, it still has the 12th highest GNP - hardly a poor country.
On the subject of linux in brasil, I currently work for an IBM partner on a project for the brasillain government. It must be %100 open source. (Its in java though, which is open for a closed standard, but not open source). The commitment is real.
Still, the whole TCO argument must be 1/3 less effective in brazil, because the Brasillian Real is 2.84 per dollar at the moment. Programmers are one of the few high paying and available jobs in Brasil. Open source means more money to hire programmers, a good public works project for public data.
iksrazal
Re:The point is... by Via_Patrino · 2003-10-13 02:45 · Score: 1

You're not very well informed (i live in Brazil too), the information on the news and on interviews, explicity says it isn't *just* a case of free as in beer, brazilian government also wants to develop the brazilian software companies (by offering support and modifications/adptations on the code).

The government executive responsable for IT stated very clear if Microsoft representatives come by and offer M$ products for free or very cheap (as they have been doing in cases like this for marketing purposes) they won't accept it.

The other way around by theolein · 2003-10-12 18:20 · Score: 1

Strangely, with me, it's the other way around. I use OSX all the time and my Windows box hasn't been switched on for about a year.

Public procurement should be based on TCO by mpawlo · 2003-10-12 18:21 · Score: 1

Let's just hope that the Brazilian government chooses the best computer program and IT solution at any given period of time, a choice not only depending on license issues.

--
Pawlo.com

Re:Public procurement should be based on TCO by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 23:09 · Score: 0

That's fine so long as you make a credible risk assessment for all vendors and an appropriate cost estimate for potential vendor lockin. And that price for governments is pretty close to infinite, vendor lockin on their data is not remotely acceptable.

The sort of steps needed to reduce that risk to an acceptable level are so extreme few companies would even consider them. Those that will have chosen to offer OSS.

Here's the Clips by Joel+Carr · 2003-10-12 18:32 · Score: 1

For those who haven't seen the clips and what to have a good laugh, here they are:
Ballmer Dance
Developers

And one more just for a little fun:
Ballmer Fun

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--
Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves. -- AE

Re: Freakin zellots... by PotatoHead · 2003-10-12 18:35 · Score: 1

Well, I am in a similar situation. Have Linux, win32 and IRIX here at home. At work, I use the three plus a little BSD.

Rather than drag out the zealot issue, why not quantify what it is you need to do on win32 that it does so well?

A win32 machine is indeed a good all around choice for a lot of folks right now. Why? Because most people know how things are done. Does this make it the best way? No, just a known way.

Does this mean it is the best choice? Not at all.

I think you are confusing your current ability to perform many tasks under a win32 OS with the capabilities of OSes in general. Maybe this is a time issue for you. Could it be that your current understanding of how to complete tasks is based on the win32 way of things?

I know it was for me. Early on, I saw Linux and liked its potential, but doing most things was hard. Why not just stay with the win32 machine then?

Because each and every skill I develop under an OSS is a skill that I am free to use under any capacity for as long as I choose to. That's a pretty damn big plus in my book. Big enough to do a little learnig for.

Learning Linux is fun --at least for me. Learning how to get things done involved both knowledge of the applications at hand as well as the OS and the computer supporting them. Neither of these things is really productive at the beginning, but real change never is.

There is no free lunch. We all know this, OSS is no different. I think of this as pay now or pay later.

People running win32, for the most part, are just users. If the computer does not currently do something needed, buy something from somebody that makes it so. On one hand, this can get costly because software costs money when distributed and developed in this manner. On the other hand, many tasks are easy enough if the right program is brought to bear on the task.

This is the pay later scenario. Why? Because everyone using those programs become dependant on them. This is called lock-in and it sucks now, but is really going to suck hard in the longer term because the people who produce all that nice software know they can leverage their users dependance into profit --just about as many times as they want to. Over and over and over. (Pay, and pay and pay later...)

The tradeoff: Easy to learn and use, with ongoing costs that never decline.

People running OSS are different. They look to build solutions and take advantage of the body of work already done. They too are users, but they are in control of their computing environment. The very nature of OSS sort of forces this. When it comes time to make the machine do something new, they first consider the other OSS solutions that exist. Perhaps somebody else already has written something to do the task? Maybe they build it, or have someone else build it for them. Finally they consider buying software.

This is the pay now scenario. Why? Because more learning and work is required up front in order to get things done. Ongoing costs are lower however because the nature of the up-front work produces the ability to perform many tasks with tools that have little or no annual costs attached.

The tradeoff: Slower ramp up time, personal learning committment required combined with few ongoing costs.

I was taught to help myself as much as possible before taking the easy way out. (Spending money or asking for help.) OSS is this ideal perfectly embodied in software today.

Not sure about you, but I often have plenty of time, but not always plenty of money. Keeping my monthly costs down in order to save for the future, raise a family and earn the ability to have nicer things in life is a priority.

So here it is in a nutshell. OSS computing is cheap in terms of hard cash one needs in order to get real work done. Is it easy? No, nothing really is. Learning to get basic tasks done with OSS takes some real time and effort. This is easier today than it has been in years past howev

--
Blogging because I can...

Are you on crack, or just an idiot? by RLiegh · 2003-10-12 18:40 · Score: 1

I tried installing windows XP on this computer and it ran just fine until I nuked it to play with different systems.

You sir, are totally full of raw fecal matter.

Re:Are you on crack, or just an idiot? by Zemran · 2003-10-12 23:21 · Score: 1

Although your offensive title made me realise you are probably just a wind up, I took a look anyway and found a story about FreeDOS??? Nothing about how you achieved what you claim or how well it worked. I am sure that if you put in the disk it would install but I am equally sure that it would be unusable. It is an easy troll to say 'I did this' without saying if it actually worked.

I often use old hardware to setup backoffice tasks and always use Linux. The Dorises in the front are happy using Windows and do not care what I get up to. When I can get them I like old P90 or such that will run with minimum mechanical parts (i.e. fans) because they are less prone to breakdown. I know that it is possible to use NT/2000 onto these beasts but I cannot get XP to run. Linux is best as long as you do not want the latest GUI.

The only beef I have with the Linux evangelists is that they make out that Linux runs the same on the old hardware. Gnome/KDE need the same type of hardware as XP but on Linux you do not need to have Gnome/KDE so you can have a happy working system on the old hardware. I know that the barrack room lawyers out there will point out that Gnome/KDE are not Linux but are apps that run on Linux but it is that sort of crap that distances joe average from Linux. There are plenty of GUIs that will run on a 486 but for the tasks that I use the old beasts for, I am happy without a GUI because I do not expect to sit in front of it.

To me, Linux is about choice. It gives me the options to make a system that suits the task. Windows is about having someone else tell you what you need. Some people do not want choice, they want to be told what they need, and for them Windows is the right OS.

--
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.

Well, it looks like it's you by melted · 2003-10-12 18:46 · Score: 1

who's got strong opinions. So far Thunderbird sucks major balls when compared to just about anything, which is understandable as it is not finished yet. And OE is no less secure than anything else out there. It even disables potentially harmful attachments by default.

48 bit color is a must for today's digital cameras. That's why I shelled out $300 for PS 7.0 (actually $150 for PS 5.5 and $150 for PS7 upgrade).

It looks like you don't need much from your computer. Too bad (for linux) some people need more than buggy basics.

Re:Well, it looks like it's you by Sevn · 2003-10-12 22:33 · Score: 1

Oh, come now. You've never even tried Thunderbird and you know it or you wouldn't be talking such nonsense. The fact that it's head and shoulders above every other email client I've ever used, hasn't crashed once, AND isn't finished yet only underscores it's superiority. And OE is incredibly insecure and still vulnerable to plenty of stupid stuff and simply doesn't hold a candle to Thunderbird. There is no need to disable potentially harmful attachments in Thunderbird because it wasn't coded like a sieve from the getgo like OE. As for 48 bit color being important for digital cameras, that makes perfect sense to me. I find myself messing with color balance and and the levels tool to get my photos looking just right with Gimp before I make absolutely perfect looking 8 by 10's with my 90 dollar C42UX Using decent photo paper taken with my 2 megapixel camera under my free operating system. That's probably why I didn't shell out a single dollar for software and have such awesome results. I guess it's like, spend a little more time learning how things work and you don't have to spend as much. Like how a professional car mechanic doesn't have to spend a fortune on labor to fix his car because he can do it. Or how really wealthy people get kickass tips on investments and make/save money. Knowing things is cool. However, for the typical home user, I'd definitely have to agree that doing digital photography is definitely something that Windows makes a hell of a lot easier. It's probably going to take the major Linux distributions a while to catch up to things like the hundred or so preforated photo paper formats/systems/etc and to get the printer drivers working perfectly also. I've playing with that MS Photo software that comes with the Avery photo systems and I was quite impressed. I got 3 perfect 4 by 6's. It took me days to be able to duplicate the quality under Linux. Linux isn't what I'd call (Buggy Basics). It's more like having a finer tuned control with less locked in standards. There is simply too much choice. People like yourself need to be told what to do, and have decisions made for you. :) For some people having to many options is scary like the bogeyman. :) There is definitely more work involved, but hey, it's free. If you are willing to put in a little extra time, you almost always end up with better results. My 8 by 10's would floor you.

--
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
Re:Well, it looks like it's you by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 03:01 · Score: 0

Wow! You soooo don't know what the fuck you're talking about? Have you even used Thunderbird? I doubt it very much.

As they used to say... by djupedal · 2003-10-12 19:39 · Score: 1

No one ever got fired for going with IBM.

Six years of Spanish classes and all I can say is: by CGP314 · 2003-10-12 19:40 · Score: 1

Muy Bien!

No it should NOT! by mijok · 2003-10-12 20:53 · Score: 1

Taxpayer money, spent by a government should be spent so that it benefits the taxpayers the most. So, in which case does it benefit them the most?
A) Sent to Redmond
B) Paid to Brazilians providing developing open source software or providing support for it (and thus also developing and mainting technical skills in the country)
The answer is quite obivous - regardless of which software choice would be better otherwise (TCO or quality).

--
Karma. Moderation. Is my .sig good now?

Jet Lag by Blue+Eagle+26 · 2003-10-12 21:03 · Score: 0

Steve Balmer must be getting some SERIOUS-ASS frequent flyer miles!

Re:Six years of Spanish classes and all I can say by BBird · 2003-10-12 21:09 · Score: 1

In six years you could have learned that the language in Brasil is Portuguese, not Spanish.

pyramid troll by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 21:10 · Score: 0

Do you want good luck to follow you and your offspring for geneations to come? This troll has the solution for you...

All you have to do is copy this troll onto two to four of the discussion threads of your choice! That's right! Just copy this into a new message and click "post anonymously." That's all there is to it! Taco is an ass.

Tired of that idiot talking about geek culture! Stick one of these babies on it! And it's good for the economy!

Marge Gentry of Cambridge, Minnesota participated, and the next day she received a large fruit basket outside of her door from a secret admirer. Unfortunately, Marge was hit by a truck the next day, so she didn't get to the Granny Smith apples.

Commander Taco of Hole-in-the-ground West Virginia didn't participate, and he was violated by a group of raging homosexuals. Since the gang was headed by Jon Katz, Taco had no recourse to the law because the entire town knew about their previous relationship. The unfortunate outcome is enshrined forever at goatse.cx.

So if you want to get the fruit basket and not get poked in the bread basket, just copy this troll onto two of the discussions threads of your choice. We could have this place blanketed by sundown!

Re:give me a break (No such break: YOU FAIL IT!) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-12 21:14 · Score: 0

Nah, I'm first post: 10h32pm!

Look at the timestamp at -1.

I'm FIRST POST !!!
I'm FIRST POST !!!
I'm FIRST POST !!!

YIPPIE!

Sisters of Mercy Quote? by Lispy · 2003-10-12 23:10 · Score: 1

Good Things (Lyrics by Andrew Eldritch)

The cracks appear along the wall wall wall wall wall
See the people stoop that once stood tall tall tall tall tall
I see the buildings crumble, see the empires fall
But I see no more and I don't recall

Because I see
Nothing but the good things
Because I see
Nothing but the good things
Because I see
Nothing but the good things
Nothing but the good good good good....
Nothing but the good things

"..."

Well nothing ventured nothing lost
Count the changes count the cost
A reformation so uncertain
Keep your station draw the curtain

"..."

Against the wall
Against the wire
Against the fall
Against the fire
Against the sale
Against the hire
They say the profits high
But I know the cost is higher

REFRAIN

Hey, Ballmer! Sounds familiar? ;-)
Sorry, had to!

cu,
Lispy

And this will affect Redmond... How? by term8or · 2003-10-12 23:46 · Score: 1

Erm, Just how much Microsoft software does brazil (as a nation) actually buy? (as supposed to "rip-off")*. And how much does it cost to localize Microsoft software to Brazil?

The majority of Microsoft profits have always come from the US. And they probably always will
* yeah, Brazil isn't a particularly bad offender, compared to China, hong Kong, etc.

--

"As a writer / novelist you might want to spellcheck your sig. :) " - AC

Re:And this will affect Redmond... How? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · 2003-10-13 00:25 · Score: 1

we probably *BUY* more than all other south-american countries put togheter.

currently our piracy rate is down to 55%, from 75% 8 years ago when ABES (Associacao Brasileira das Empresas de Software, local branch of BSA), with more and more ABES raids on piracy and increased adoption of open-source piracy rates tend to go down even further.

--
What ? Me, worry ?
Re:And this will affect Redmond... How? by facorreia · 2003-10-13 23:47 · Score: 1

In 2002 Brazil payed 1.2 billion dollars in royalties for software.
Re:And this will affect Redmond... How? by term8or · 2003-10-14 08:17 · Score: 1

And how much of that was spent by the government? And how much of that was spent on microsoft products? And how much of the remaining amount is actually at threat, considering most of the licenses will be long term, and the cost of switching legacy systems to Linux would be prohibitive?

--

"As a writer / novelist you might want to spellcheck your sig. :) " - AC

Re:Dispersing the Linux Myths by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-13 02:01 · Score: 0

>No amount of RAM will satisfy Linux, it will eat it
>all until there is nothing left to do but start
>swapping. Many Linux purists will say that is not
>true

the diskless client (who needs an hard disk with linux?) with 128Mb of ram (and of course no swap because i didn't want to mess with patches for swap over nfs) that i gave to my sisters last year, used everyday with a couple of xfree opened at the same time (who needs fast user switching with linux?), openoffice, evolution, galeon, a pdf viewer, a multimedia player and some other things STRONGLY disagree with you.

apparently, you're an idiot on crack.. by RLiegh · 2003-10-13 02:54 · Score: 1

Since you appear to be proof that low-UID users eventually do go senile, I'll phrase this more carefully.

Do try to keep up this time around - I won't be explaining myself again.

1)You made a highly bogus claim that XP would not run comfortably on older hardware.

2)I posted a reply asking what your mental impediment is, and then did the following to refute your wildly inaccurage claims:
a)I posted a link to the specs of a laptop that I have used to experiement with different Operating Systems on
b)I stated in my post (you know--the post you didn't bother reading because of your adult attention deficit disorder?) that I also ran XP on it at one time (along with Freedos...concurrent with it, actually, as I had a dual boot system going on for a while).

In short, you are on crack, you are trolling, or bitrot really does affect users with a UID lower than 100k or so. I suspect it's really a bit of all of the above.

Re:apparently, you're an idiot on crack.. by Zemran · 2003-10-13 04:13 · Score: 1

In your rush to be abusive you have shown that you are the idiot... I am not the original poster that you replied to, I am someone that read your rant and replied. You obviously do not know f all about what you are talking about but you continue to show your stupidity whilst claiming some sort of superiority. Maybe you should learn to read and then you could start to learn about computers. In the mean time look up Socratic Irony, and you may see why you look so daft.

--
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.

Agree by Burz · 2003-10-13 04:49 · Score: 1

The grandparent msg is just anti-GUI BS.

I think there are two main failures re: Linux system design are:

a) No consistent set of GUI sysadmin tools (like changing your screen res, or setting up file sharing, etc.) The services that read their config files must provide APIs to change and write them back.

b) Software installation can be very painful. The distros are concentrating too much on easy of OS installation, and then shove a shelfload of redundant software down your throat just for a default setup. Even a novice doesn't want to be dependant on their distro for applications. Sheesh!

Re:Six years of Spanish classes and all I can say by gfxguy · 2003-10-13 06:11 · Score: 1

Muito bem, obrigado!

--
Stupid sexy Flanders.

Well, we're in the different ranges then by melted · 2003-10-13 09:06 · Score: 1

I use Canon EOS 10D for my photography, so Photoshop really is a must (mainly because of 48 bit color, color management and L*a*b color space support). And I do know how things work and that's exactly why I've chosen Photoshop. Too bad you have no choice here. GIMP is about the only halfway decent image editor for Linux and it lacks some vital features.

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IBM, Brazilian Government Launch Linux Effort

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