Since you were the most strident I'll respond here, though this is a general response and clarification, not aimed at any one person (except maybe the guy(s) who foisted pdf on the innocent).
Someone said if a pdf is way to huge then it's the document creators fault, in that case most of them are idiots.
There are VERY few cases where such a rigid (from the document READERS perspective) format is needed. Usually for typsetting or properly connecting graphs etc. to text. For both of those there are better tools available.
I've seen info that would be just fine as a simply 5k text or even rich-text document bloated out into a 1meg+ monstrosity for no reason.
And that just covers some of the stupid doc creator problems. There is probably a higher percentage of people who are cluefull about securing thier xp boxes than are about pdf's.
The other problems of PDF stems from thier faulty premise. That being that since you can have text in both therefore a computer screen can be treated as a book. This results in an unwieldy interface, that clutters much of the area in the document with interface that should be reading space, you also can't do anything with word wrap so your stuck with whatever the doc creator chose.
PDF just tries to hard to creat the false and innapropriate illusion that your reading a book.
Add in the frustration when the doc creator decides, NO you can't cut and paste any of this, you'll just have type manually in a text editor. or no you can't print or save or whatever. it's flat out stupid. Not to mention that untill very recently the stupid reader wouldn't even save all your settings and had stupid defaults that made a broken interface even worse.
And this has nothing to do with unix vs windows vs mac vs amiga or whatever. The format is designed to do 2 things, one ill-advised, the other unwanted. (look like a book on a computer screen, and controll presentation DESPITE the wishes of the reader).
Between faulty premise and faulty users you wind up with a hard to use document that is usually grossly larger than needed.
Actually I haven't seen acrobat on a windows install cd yet. I also can't recall the last motherboard drivers cd that didn't have it.
That said pdf is EVIL INCARNATE a simple 15 page document suddenly becomes a 4 meg monstrosity trying to be a 'book' in a medium where it's inapropriate. That is a pain to navigate, and you can't cut and past sections from it most of the time so you can have just the part you need in a small usuable text file.
Needless to say I equate putting docs in a pdf file on par with most of the other stuff PHB's do with tech they don't understand.
Sorry for the rant, but I just spent an hour downloading docs in 4 pdf's averaging 3 megs+ each that would have easily fit (images included) in less than a meg in any other format and been more usefull as well. The smallest was 164k, 3 pages, no images.
The judge stretched the hell out of a concept (basically treating the database sold as an on-going work where it might be reasonable for costs and such to change durring the work?!?!?!?) to stick it to a complete a-hole. Also the eula was in part upheld because the man new, or at least reasonably should have known (a notice to that effect was placed on the ouside of the retail box)
Do you have any links to other cases involving eulas, esp. the ones that come as a total suprise during install?
I wonder because I've seen programs that can be used creatively that once you buy them you find out they don't let you 'sell' anything you've created with them without paying a royality or buying a $5000 version.
Activist is likely a matter of opinion. Most overturned is b.s. The 9th's percentage of overturned cases is pretty close to the other circuit appellete courts. They just hear a LOT more cases than the others, so thier raw numbers are higher. Using raw numbers they're also the most upheld court.
They also take cases somtimes to settle discrepancies between the appellate courts, and the rulling here pointed out that thier rulling doesn't entirely square with the 7th on some points. They also point out that they couldn't do anything with what the 7th said because thier own binding precedants would require the full court to do so.
That depends, does your disclaimer clearly state what you do and don't have re-distribution rights to?
An argument could made that since you are offering them it's reasonable to assume you have the rights to re-distribute them. Just like someone buying stolen goods isn't necessarily guilty of a crime, if they bought the goods in 'good faith'.
A friend of mine had a gun he inherited from his dad (a collectors piece, a WWII officers pistol). When it turned out to be stolen he showed how he'd not only inherited it, but the pawn shop reciept from when his dad had bought it several years ago while living on the east coast somewhere. This showed that he'd reicieved the gun believing it to be leagle and all he lost was the gun and some personal time providing copies of the records to the police.
Notice the RIAA is going after the people HOSTING the files, not the downloaders. Though probably not for this reason alone.
Of course if you are not a US resident then different laws may apply to you.
No it's not entirely flamebait, just a bit missinformed and going with the common belief that the 9th is overturned more than other circuit courts.
Actually in raw number of cases they are, but being the biggest jurisdiction they also hear the most cases. Percentage of overturns is pretty close to the others.
It's somwhat likely, given that in the rulling they even state there is a difference with the how the 7th has interpreted the same criterion. A difference that would be potentialy significant if it were used in this case.
Not only comon sense, but I read the decision and while they didn't get all the technical aspect right (though they say it's an oversimplified explanation, and point to better ones), they actually seemed to 'get it' on how this stuff works at some level and ruled in a manner that shows it.
No bad analogies that miss the point, no complete confusion with other tech, just a clear explanation of why what the three pages of plaintifs say doesn't work under the law considering the technolodgy involved.
Now as far as a catch, they pretty much say congress can change or amend the law to somthing more *aa freindly.
The funny thing is I heard this from a spanish teacher in high school who had gotten the story from her husband, a Mexican she had met during a vacation in Mexico. I guesse he was pulling her legg and she didn't get it, which makes sense as she was a bit of an air head. A very nice, pleasant person though.
One thing is that US stands for UNITED states and started with thirteen seperate colonies. States are NOT like counties or provinces in most other countries. The original setup was seen as much more like what the EU is aming for, but didn't quite work as planned. And federal government has been gaining power steadily at the expense of the individual state. I imagine the EU will eventualy be just one country with seperate, but still individualistic, 'states' like the US.
As a side note, I don't think I've hit a sight that refused me on firefox. I've been using it about two months. where are all these ie only sights. Admittedly mostly I visit slashdot, a few computer parts makers, and some gaming sights, and stuff linked from the above mostly. (I'll try my bank, nope mainpage works fine, not set up for online banking though.)
The point people often missed with that stat is that the stat was of user agent strings, not actual user agent or os.
Many browsers support configurable user agent strings to get around all those sites that stupidly block non-ie browsers, often needlesly.
"My mailserver used to answer as a "Commodore 64 (with anti-spam cartridge)". "
Beautifull, to bad I don't have mods points, that alone is worth +1 funny and +2 nostalgic imho.
Kinda makes me wonder what would have hapened if for some reason using cartidges for software hadn't been replaced by the floppy/hdd/cd/dvd/ ect. Like if someone had found a cheap way to make gbit and tbit roms for arbitrary programs before hd's became generic items for home pc's.
Hey don't knock the trs-80's, The best St. Louis area bbs's were the mtabbs systems all running on trs-80's.
For you children out there bbs's are the pre-internet online communities. (Technically only pre the public/comercial internet, colledges and so on had it back then, just not joe public).
"Their webmaster wrote me back a detailed message - he had never heard of a platform where IE was unavailable"
Am I the only one who read that and wondered how anyone can call themselves ANYTHING that implies computer savy at any level and NOT know there are things out there besides windows and apple?
Especially anything web related, next this guy will be shocked to find out apache isn't just a tribe of native americans.
I sincerely hope this isn't your bank or some other site where thier cluelessness can cost you in some way.
Yeah both are typo's. My thinking gets out of sync with my hands sometimes, my hands don't catch the re-word of somthing till they've typed half of it:). My spelling is also atrocious.
Then again it's better than my speaking somtimes, I can subtly corrupt the meaning of what I'm saying by not using the right words for my meaning, but my subconsious makes a bad attempt at putting SOMTHING that sounds apropriate in there when it can't find the right word. At least this is usually spotable and original meaning deriveable. I hope.
Just one question, how can a eula (to be specific, I'm talking about the eula's that are sprung on the user AFTER he paid for the product in the store and took it home, if they were presented as conditions of reciept of the product before sale then they're normal contracts) create any sort of contract between the publisher and end user?
A contract, as I understand it, is an agreement between two parties who each give the other somthing. If the publisher is only taking things away in the eula then what are they giving the buyer didn't already have when he bought the software in the first place? If the answer is nothing then how can there be a contract? Back when this was tried with books the courts seemed to largely agree the after sale contracts were just wasted paper and had no leagle standing. Where doese software suddenly get a different treatment?
As far as a eula that grants more rights than default, that's eigther an offer of a contract, or a well defined gift depending on whether any consideration is asked of the other party.
It's one thing to offer someone a prize with thier cereal, or offer them a toaster if they send in 5 box tops, it's another entirely to put a note in the box saying that by opening the box and eating any of the cereal they agree to send in $10 for the right to eat the cereal they bought.
The problem here seems to be the view that software bought leagly in a store is somehow special and normal rules of buying and selling don't aply and you can do all sorts of after the fact rules changes by fiat. I see no reason why first sale shouldn't apply. Once the publisher has sold it they only have the considerations agreed to at purchase and the protections afforded by law, not some arbitrary rules they wish to apply later.
"I have no idea which case you're referring to regarding adding a contract to a finished product, but somehow I doubt the relevance."
IIRC, it refers to a practice that was tried in the 1800's with books because of weak copyright laws in the US vs Europe. somthing very simular to an eula was put on one of the spare pages found in a book that said 'by buying this you agree...'. Judges tossed the ridiculous crap left repeatedly. Basically it's not kosher to add condition to a sale AFTER the sale is complete. And that is what eulas try to do.
"You can analyse it either as a collateral contract or by saying that the consideration for the EULA is either the grant of a license."
Not shure what the other half of your eigther is. Or what liscense is granted, the use of the software is implicit, and normal copyright law prohibits copying for other than backup.
Now if your saying the eula offers more options than you would otherwise have in exchange for it's additional restrictions, that's a different set of items than the purchase and normal use of the software.
AFAIK the one case I mentioned is the only one where a 'shrink wrap liscense' was upheld. Where as add on 'contracts' sprung on the purchaser of goods after the purchase was complete have been a non-starter since the late 1800's, wish I could rember the term for it.
It's the alot like selling somthing to someone for the agreed price of $100, but writing in a hidden place that the buyer owes an extra $250.
It's been a while since I did much reading on this (late '80, when this eula crap started), but a lot of experts thought them useless scare tactics on the part of software makers to try and manipulate end users into thinking they didn't have rights they did in fact have.
Now if some specific law (or change there to) or wierd court ruling at a significant level has occured since then I'm out of date, but otherwise I see no reason (other than a tendency of $$ to win in court) to see eulas (specificaly the kind sprung on users after purchase. Not those the user see before downloading or buying somthing) having gained any new credibility.
Well just looked at the link, shure looks borderline to me. send us $$ get 20 others to do so and get I-pod. This with non-functional links to thier terms and privacy policy. I didn't bother to try find out wich country thier operating out of to avoid the lawsuits and such when they happen.
Also Pyramid schemes are illeagle in the United States and many other companies. However a variant called multi-level-marketing is leagle. These are the schemes where you sign up people under you to sell things and cuts of what's sold get passed up the chain so many levels.
The difference tends to hinge on wether the primary goal is building the pyramid, or selling a product or service independent of the pyramid.
Both are a good way to loose money, except maybe the few mlm's that don't have a 'sign on fee' or some such methode whereby you pay them then have to sell $x in goods to break even.
MLM's can work for agressive, skilled, good salesmen types, but usually everyone else makes little or even looses.
Not exactly. The store bought the software under thier agreement to the publisher. You bought it from the store. The store is the only entity you gave consideration to and vice versa, you had NO dealings with the publisher.
Plus adding a contract to a finished product AFTER it was purchased HAS been ruled against in the past. It's taken many years (as in approximately 100+) for anyone to get up nerve to try again after the courts took it apart the first time. I would guesse they think computers are so 'high tech' that the courts could mistakenly believe different rules aply. The've even tried the argument that since the data/program is copied to ram and hard drive to be used it would violate copyright unless they gave you a 'liscense' to do otherwise that they could add all this crap to. Not that I think they've actually tried it in court, judges would at least spot that bull.
I do however remember one case where a eula was upheld. Frankly the judge was seriously stretching some reasoning and bending a few concepts to nail a bastard who needed to be nailed. Some guy kept buying the personal version of some software database and reusing it on a pay-website with his own data added and the judge decided that since he'd bought it 3 times he had to know about the eula by the second and third time and the whole thing could be treated like an on-going situation such as building a house or fixing a car where the details of the costs and services change even though money has already exchanged hands. A VERY weak concatonation of reasoning in an egregious situation (the info in a database is just a collection of facts, not copywriteable in of itself, thus the need for the eula instead of straight infringement).
Slashdot Mirror
Since you were the most strident I'll respond here, though this is a general response and clarification, not aimed at any one person (except maybe the guy(s) who foisted pdf on the innocent).
Someone said if a pdf is way to huge then it's the document creators fault, in that case most of them are idiots.
There are VERY few cases where such a rigid (from the document READERS perspective) format is needed. Usually for typsetting or properly connecting graphs etc. to text. For both of those there are better tools available.
I've seen info that would be just fine as a simply 5k text or even rich-text document bloated out into a 1meg+ monstrosity for no reason.
And that just covers some of the stupid doc creator problems. There is probably a higher percentage of people who are cluefull about securing thier xp boxes than are about pdf's.
The other problems of PDF stems from thier faulty premise. That being that since you can have text in both therefore a computer screen can be treated as a book. This results in an unwieldy interface, that clutters much of the area in the document with interface that should be reading space, you also can't do anything with word wrap so your stuck with whatever the doc creator chose.
PDF just tries to hard to creat the false and innapropriate illusion that your reading a book.
Add in the frustration when the doc creator decides, NO you can't cut and paste any of this, you'll just have type manually in a text editor. or no you can't print or save or whatever. it's flat out stupid. Not to mention that untill very recently the stupid reader wouldn't even save all your settings and had stupid defaults that made a broken interface even worse.
And this has nothing to do with unix vs windows vs mac vs amiga or whatever. The format is designed to do 2 things, one ill-advised, the other unwanted. (look like a book on a computer screen, and controll presentation DESPITE the wishes of the reader).
Between faulty premise and faulty users you wind up with a hard to use document that is usually grossly larger than needed.
Mycroft
Actually I haven't seen acrobat on a windows install cd yet. I also can't recall the last motherboard drivers cd that didn't have it.
That said pdf is EVIL INCARNATE a simple 15 page document suddenly becomes a 4 meg monstrosity trying to be a 'book' in a medium where it's inapropriate. That is a pain to navigate, and you can't cut and past sections from it most of the time so you can have just the part you need in a small usuable text file.
Needless to say I equate putting docs in a pdf file on par with most of the other stuff PHB's do with tech they don't understand.
Sorry for the rant, but I just spent an hour downloading docs in 4 pdf's averaging 3 megs+ each that would have easily fit (images included) in less than a meg in any other format and been more usefull as well. The smallest was 164k, 3 pages, no images.
Mycroft
I can't recall the exact acronym, but it basically means the republican political party.
Mycroft
The judge stretched the hell out of a concept (basically treating the database sold as an on-going work where it might be reasonable for costs and such to change durring the work?!?!?!?) to stick it to a complete a-hole. Also the eula was in part upheld because the man new, or at least reasonably should have known (a notice to that effect was placed on the ouside of the retail box)
Do you have any links to other cases involving eulas, esp. the ones that come as a total suprise during install?
I wonder because I've seen programs that can be used creatively that once you buy them you find out they don't let you 'sell' anything you've created with them without paying a royality or buying a $5000 version.
Mycroft
Activist is likely a matter of opinion.
Most overturned is b.s. The 9th's percentage of overturned cases is pretty close to the other circuit appellete courts. They just hear a LOT more cases than the others, so thier raw numbers are higher. Using raw numbers they're also the most upheld court.
They also take cases somtimes to settle discrepancies between the appellate courts, and the rulling here pointed out that thier rulling doesn't entirely square with the 7th on some points. They also point out that they couldn't do anything with what the 7th said because thier own binding precedants would require the full court to do so.
Mycroft
That depends, does your disclaimer clearly state what you do and don't have re-distribution rights to?
An argument could made that since you are offering them it's reasonable to assume you have the rights to re-distribute them. Just like someone buying stolen goods isn't necessarily guilty of a crime, if they bought the goods in 'good faith'.
A friend of mine had a gun he inherited from his dad (a collectors piece, a WWII officers pistol). When it turned out to be stolen he showed how he'd not only inherited it, but the pawn shop reciept from when his dad had bought it several years ago while living on the east coast somewhere. This showed that he'd reicieved the gun believing it to be leagle and all he lost was the gun and some personal time providing copies of the records to the police.
Notice the RIAA is going after the people HOSTING the files, not the downloaders. Though probably not for this reason alone.
Of course if you are not a US resident then different laws may apply to you.
Mycroft
No it's not entirely flamebait, just a bit missinformed and going with the common belief that the 9th is overturned more than other circuit courts.
Actually in raw number of cases they are, but being the biggest jurisdiction they also hear the most cases. Percentage of overturns is pretty close to the others.
Mycroft
It's somwhat likely, given that in the rulling they even state there is a difference with the how the 7th has interpreted the same criterion. A difference that would be potentialy significant if it were used in this case.
Mycroft
Not only comon sense, but I read the decision and while they didn't get all the technical aspect right (though they say it's an oversimplified explanation, and point to better ones), they actually seemed to 'get it' on how this stuff works at some level and ruled in a manner that shows it.
No bad analogies that miss the point, no complete confusion with other tech, just a clear explanation of why what the three pages of plaintifs say doesn't work under the law considering the technolodgy involved.
Now as far as a catch, they pretty much say congress can change or amend the law to somthing more *aa freindly.
Mycroft
The funny thing is I heard this from a spanish teacher in high school who had gotten the story from her husband, a Mexican she had met during a vacation in Mexico. I guesse he was pulling her legg and she didn't get it, which makes sense as she was a bit of an air head. A very nice, pleasant person though.
Mycroft
I'm eigther mildly impressed or severly traumatized.
Mcyroft
One thing is that US stands for UNITED states and started with thirteen seperate colonies. States are NOT like counties or provinces in most other countries. The original setup was seen as much more like what the EU is aming for, but didn't quite work as planned. And federal government has been gaining power steadily at the expense of the individual state. I imagine the EU will eventualy be just one country with seperate, but still individualistic, 'states' like the US.
Mycroft
And you don't make a car called Nova and try to sell it in mexico/spain, err... oh wait.
Mycroft
As a side note, I don't think I've hit a sight that refused me on firefox. I've been using it about two months. where are all these ie only sights. Admittedly mostly I visit slashdot, a few computer parts makers, and some gaming sights, and stuff linked from the above mostly. (I'll try my bank, nope mainpage works fine, not set up for online banking though.)
Mycroft
The point people often missed with that stat is that the stat was of user agent strings, not actual user agent or os.
Many browsers support configurable user agent strings to get around all those sites that stupidly block non-ie browsers, often needlesly.
Mycroft
"My mailserver used to answer as a "Commodore 64 (with anti-spam cartridge)". "
Beautifull, to bad I don't have mods points, that alone is worth +1 funny and +2 nostalgic imho.
Kinda makes me wonder what would have hapened if for some reason using cartidges for software hadn't been replaced by the floppy/hdd/cd/dvd/ ect. Like if someone had found a cheap way to make gbit and tbit roms for arbitrary programs before hd's became generic items for home pc's.
Mycroft
Hey don't knock the trs-80's, The best St. Louis area bbs's were the mtabbs systems all running on trs-80's.
For you children out there bbs's are the pre-internet online communities. (Technically only pre the public/comercial internet, colledges and so on had it back then, just not joe public).
Mycroft
"Their webmaster wrote me back a detailed message - he had never heard of a platform where IE was unavailable"
Am I the only one who read that and wondered how anyone can call themselves ANYTHING that implies computer savy at any level and NOT know there are things out there besides windows and apple?
Especially anything web related, next this guy will be shocked to find out apache isn't just a tribe of native americans.
I sincerely hope this isn't your bank or some other site where thier cluelessness can cost you in some way.
Mycroft
Yeah both are typo's. My thinking gets out of sync with my hands sometimes, my hands don't catch the re-word of somthing till they've typed half of it :). My spelling is also atrocious.
Then again it's better than my speaking somtimes, I can subtly corrupt the meaning of what I'm saying by not using the right words for my meaning, but my subconsious makes a bad attempt at putting SOMTHING that sounds apropriate in there when it can't find the right word. At least this is usually spotable and original meaning deriveable. I hope.
Mycroft
Just one question, how can a eula (to be specific, I'm talking about the eula's that are sprung on the user AFTER he paid for the product in the store and took it home, if they were presented as conditions of reciept of the product before sale then they're normal contracts) create any sort of contract between the publisher and end user?
A contract, as I understand it, is an agreement between two parties who each give the other somthing. If the publisher is only taking things away in the eula then what are they giving the buyer didn't already have when he bought the software in the first place? If the answer is nothing then how can there be a contract? Back when this was tried with books the courts seemed to largely agree the after sale contracts were just wasted paper and had no leagle standing. Where doese software suddenly get a different treatment?
As far as a eula that grants more rights than default, that's eigther an offer of a contract, or a well defined gift depending on whether any consideration is asked of the other party.
It's one thing to offer someone a prize with thier cereal, or offer them a toaster if they send in 5 box tops, it's another entirely to put a note in the box saying that by opening the box and eating any of the cereal they agree to send in $10 for the right to eat the cereal they bought.
The problem here seems to be the view that software bought leagly in a store is somehow special and normal rules of buying and selling don't aply and you can do all sorts of after the fact rules changes by fiat. I see no reason why first sale shouldn't apply. Once the publisher has sold it they only have the considerations agreed to at purchase and the protections afforded by law, not some arbitrary rules they wish to apply later.
Mycroft
"I have no idea which case you're referring to regarding adding a contract to a finished product, but somehow I doubt the relevance."
.
IIRC, it refers to a practice that was tried in the 1800's with books because of weak copyright laws in the US vs Europe. somthing very simular to an eula was put on one of the spare pages found in a book that said 'by buying this you agree...'. Judges tossed the ridiculous crap left repeatedly. Basically it's not kosher to add condition to a sale AFTER the sale is complete. And that is what eulas try to do.
"You can analyse it either as a collateral contract or by saying that the consideration for the EULA is either the grant of a license."
Not shure what the other half of your eigther is. Or what liscense is granted, the use of the software is implicit, and normal copyright law prohibits copying for other than backup.
Now if your saying the eula offers more options than you would otherwise have in exchange for it's additional restrictions, that's a different set of items than the purchase and normal use of the software.
AFAIK the one case I mentioned is the only one where a 'shrink wrap liscense' was upheld. Where as add on 'contracts' sprung on the purchaser of goods after the purchase was complete have been a non-starter since the late 1800's, wish I could rember the term for it.
It's the alot like selling somthing to someone for the agreed price of $100, but writing in a hidden place that the buyer owes an extra $250.
It's been a while since I did much reading on this (late '80, when this eula crap started), but a lot of experts thought them useless scare tactics on the part of software makers to try and manipulate end users into thinking they didn't have rights they did in fact have.
Now if some specific law (or change there to) or wierd court ruling at a significant level has occured since then I'm out of date, but otherwise I see no reason (other than a tendency of $$ to win in court) to see eulas (specificaly the kind sprung on users after purchase. Not those the user see before downloading or buying somthing) having gained any new credibility
Mycroft
Mycroft
Well just looked at the link, shure looks borderline to me. send us $$ get 20 others to do so and get I-pod. This with non-functional links to thier terms and privacy policy. I didn't bother to try find out wich country thier operating out of to avoid the lawsuits and such when they happen.
Mycroft
Also Pyramid schemes are illeagle in the United States and many other companies. However a variant called multi-level-marketing is leagle. These are the schemes where you sign up people under you to sell things and cuts of what's sold get passed up the chain so many levels.
The difference tends to hinge on wether the primary goal is building the pyramid, or selling a product or service independent of the pyramid.
Both are a good way to loose money, except maybe the few mlm's that don't have a 'sign on fee' or some such methode whereby you pay them then have to sell $x in goods to break even.
MLM's can work for agressive, skilled, good salesmen types, but usually everyone else makes little or even looses.
Mycroft
Not exactly. The store bought the software under thier agreement to the publisher. You bought it from the store. The store is the only entity you gave consideration to and vice versa, you had NO dealings with the publisher.
Plus adding a contract to a finished product AFTER it was purchased HAS been ruled against in the past. It's taken many years (as in approximately 100+) for anyone to get up nerve to try again after the courts took it apart the first time. I would guesse they think computers are so 'high tech' that the courts could mistakenly believe different rules aply. The've even tried the argument that since the data/program is copied to ram and hard drive to be used it would violate copyright unless they gave you a 'liscense' to do otherwise that they could add all this crap to. Not that I think they've actually tried it in court, judges would at least spot that bull.
I do however remember one case where a eula was upheld. Frankly the judge was seriously stretching some reasoning and bending a few concepts to nail a bastard who needed to be nailed. Some guy kept buying the personal version of some software database and reusing it on a pay-website with his own data added and the judge decided that since he'd bought it 3 times he had to know about the eula by the second and third time and the whole thing could be treated like an on-going situation such as building a house or fixing a car where the details of the costs and services change even though money has already exchanged hands. A VERY weak concatonation of reasoning in an egregious situation (the info in a database is just a collection of facts, not copywriteable in of itself, thus the need for the eula instead of straight infringement).
Mycroft