The Spyware Inferno

Remember Kids... by romper · 2004-08-17 08:37 · Score: 5, Informative

Claria is Gator is Spyware.

--
Right is wrong when left is right.

Re:Remember Kids... by sik0fewl · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

.. is apparently a good way to make cash.

I think people should be forced to take classes or seminars before using the Internet, teaching them how *not* to be fooled to install adware and spyware. They should also be told not to use Internet Explorer.

Of course, with this seminar, everyone would get a free software CD with Claria included.

--
I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
Re:Remember Kids... by rjamestaylor · 2004-08-17 09:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

Why hasn't Apple/Claris sued for the obvious typo-subterfuge intended by Gator's selection of Claris^Ha as it's re-invention name?

Hmmm?

--
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Re:Remember Kids... by bjohnson · 2004-08-17 09:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

Because Apple "eats their own dog food"?

None of this crap targets Macs, or Mac browsers, so it's entirely possible that they haven't even noticed how much of a problem it is, or ever heard of the company.

The only reason I ever notice spyware is when I have to clean it out of yet another luser's system.

Spyware Schmyware. I use Firefox on OS X.

Problem solved.
Re:Remember Kids... by Lord+Kano · 2004-08-17 10:31 · Score: 1

Remember kids

Wil Wheaton thinks that Gator is Spyware!

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Re:Remember Kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:21 · Score: 0

I also think you should wake up from your wet dream.
Re:Remember Kids... by TheSpoom · 2004-08-17 11:22 · Score: 3, Informative

I had a caller recently who I was doing technical support for, and I believe the issue was that they were getting some sort of error message when they booted up. I was going through MSCONFIG and unchecking startup items as she read them to me, and the conversation went something like this:

Her: "CMESYS."
Me: "Uncheck that, it's spyware."
Her: "Isn't that Gator?"
Me: "Umm... yes."
Her: "Oh, I pay for that, I don't want that removed. It fills in my passwords for me!"

Apparently she paid $30 / yr. for the "service" that the Gator eWallet was providing. She had called them (and in hindsight I should have asked for the number) before and they assured her that the paid version doesn't come with their normal great advertising code. I was considering banning her from the internet, but I would have been fired. :^(

--
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Re:Remember Kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:27 · Score: 0

Obvious humor not your forte?
Re:Remember Kids... by ratamacue · 2004-08-17 12:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think people should be forced to take classes
Sure, we'll hold them at gunpoint and educate the bastards! (What exactly do you think the word "force" means?)
And we'll make the taxpayers fund it all, whether they like it or not! ("Force" implies government, and we all know how government gets its revenue.)
But hell, if you're in power, what do you have to lose?
Re:Remember Kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 12:29 · Score: 0

(just clicked on ww's id)egads! that dude has karma coming out his main deflector dish.

sonova!
Re:Remember Kids... by Lord+Kano · 2004-08-17 12:30 · Score: 1

He's a pretty funny guy and all of the fanboys can't wait to waste karma on him.

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Re:Remember Kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 13:15 · Score: 0

"'Force' implies government" How is that exactly? Anyway, I sincerely hope no one ever tells you they're hungry enough to eat a horse, it might provoke a rant on just how bad horse is for your health.
Re:Remember Kids... by Toresica · 2004-08-17 13:45 · Score: 1, Informative

I think people should be forced to take classes or seminars before using the Internet.

Most people do, now, in Grade 6 Computer class or something.

Although not quite that elaborate, usually.
Re:Remember Kids... by 0racle · 2004-08-17 14:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

And while their at it they can sue Clarica, because obviously everything that starts 'Clari' must belong to Apple since they have a piece of software called claris. In fact, why don't we just give Apple ownership of the letters c,l,a,r,i, and s so they can sue everyone who uses them.

How in gods name was the parent modded interesting when its perfectly obvious why Apple doesn't sue, there's nothing to sue over.

--
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Re:Remember Kids... by delus10n0 · 2004-08-17 14:58 · Score: 1

I've had similiar repair cases. This machine was totally thrashed, hardcore, to the point where it would take 10 minutes to boot into the Windows XP desktop. I went to uninstall Gator, and she (the customer) freaked. She told me she paid for it, and it blocks pop ups for her and saves her passwords, credit card info, etc. so she doesn't have to re-enter it all the time.

Wow.

--
Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Re:Remember Kids... by nyri · 2004-08-17 18:22 · Score: 1

Spyware Schmyware. I use Firefox on OS X.

I've been wondering where does the "shm"-thing come from. The first time I heard it was on Mallrats. I quote:

Rene: What are you doing? You promised me breakfast.
Brodie: Breakfast, shmreakfast. Look at the score, for Christ's sake. It's only the second period and I'm up 12 to 2. Breakfasts come and go, Rene, but Hartford, "the Whale", they only beat Vancouver once, maybe twice in a lifetime.

That, of course, is pretty damn hilarious quote. Now the question: Has anyone seen any prior case to this one?
Re:Remember Kids... by Teun · 2004-08-17 19:14 · Score: 1

Why should it cost the governement?
You don't let people loose with a car on the roads without a driving test that they pay for themself.
As the Internet is getting more and more affected by people that do not sufficiently control their system I can eventually see requirements for those that operate powerfull and (potentially) harmfull systems on the net.
Or, no licence means your IP will be blocked/marked as such.

--
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Re:Remember Kids... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 19:52 · Score: 0

(Offtopic)

From http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/myiddish.html

Dear Straight Dope:

What is the origin of the practice of a dispraging a word by saying the word than dropping the first letter and replacing it with "schm?" For example, if you don't like baseball, you would say "baseball schmaseball." --STECK!

SDSTAFF Dex replies:

It comes from Yiddish, of course. You have to ask?

Yiddish was the language of eastern European (or Ashkenazic) Jews. Yiddish is not Hebrew. Hebrew is the 3,000 year old language used by the Jews for prayer and religious ceremonies (along with Aramaic) and is the official language of the state of Israel.

Yiddish uses the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and is written from right to left (like Hebrew.) But less that a fifth of Yiddish words are of Hebrew origin. Perhaps as much as 75% of Yiddish vocabulary consists of adaptations of German words, with bits from Polish, Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian, various Slavic dialects, and (since the late 1880s) English. Spelling is largely phonetic, although there has been some standardization in the last century.

Around the tenth century, Jews from what is now northern France, who spoke Old French (and Hebrew), moved to towns along the Rhine, where they began to use the local German dialect, which they adopted and adapted. They wrote German phonetically with their Hebrew alphabet. They avoided Latin and its alphabet, because Latin was associated with Christendom and persecutions.

As Yiddish developed, there was obviously a heavy Hebrew influence (names, holidays, religious matters). Words were added from other languages as Jews traveled. Yiddish became the language of the home, as opposed to the sacred language Hebrew. Leo Rosten, in The Joys of Yiddish, calls Yiddish a "linguistic melange" that flourished in eastern Europe, in the ghettos. (The Lateran Councils of 1179 and 1215 prohibited Jews from living close to Christians and thus the ghettos were born.) Since the Jews were segregated, Yiddish did not evolve along with German, and thus, to a modern German speaker, Yiddish has irregularities in grammar and spelling.

Yiddish did evolve, of course, but independently. By the 15th century, when Jews moved to eastern Europe, Yiddish picked up new words and phrases mainly from the street and market.

Yiddish is only one of the many vernacular languages fashioned by Jews throughout the ages. You can still find Judeo-Greek, Judeo-Persian, Farsi-Tar used by Jews in the Caucasus Mountains, and Ladino used by Jews in the south of Europe. But Yiddish is the language that was the most widespread, adapted most vigorously, and has flourished best. At one time (1920s), about two-thirds of world Jewry spoke Yiddish; the Holocaust, of course, ended that.

I have to add a personal comment: during WWII, my father-in-law was in the American army, in one of the advance units moving into Germany. He was the translator when his unit encountered German civilians, because he spoke Yiddish--as close to German as his unit was going to get.

Linguistically, Yiddish is technically classified as Judeo-German, with bits of Old French and Old Italian. There are three types of Yiddish: Lithuanian, Polish, and Ukranian. Lithuanian Yiddish predominates in the U.S.

When Jews fled the pogroms (government-sponsored riots and persecutions) of Europe to the U.S. beginning in the late 1800s, they brought Yiddish with them. The language adapted with borrowed English words, which were given new case, mood, and inflection. Thoughts were rearranged to meet traditional Yiddish syntax ("Him you call a genius?"), logic was rearranged ("I didn't go and I didn't not go") and English words and names were cheerfully adapted (Abraham Lincohen, Judge Vashington).

The borrowing was two-way: American English adapted phrases from Yiddish. Nosh, shmo, schmuck, gonif, hoohah, yenta, -nik (as in beatnik), and several hundred others. Phrases such as "get lost," "you should live s
Re:Remember Kids... by scruffyMark · 2004-08-17 20:01 · Score: 1

And we'll make the taxpayers fund it all, whether they like it or not!
Surely the people with guns are in the room for a reason - it makes collecting the fees for the session so much easier.

--
What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht
Re:Remember Kids... by Moraelin · 2004-08-17 21:28 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Problem solved only because noone gives a damn about something which has maybe 1/1000 of the market. Mozilla on all platforms is already a spit in the bucket. Mozilla on MacOS, well, that's got to mean... what? You and 10 other users? Hardly a market worth programming for.

The fact is: nothing in MacOS X, Mozilla or even Linux would protect you from spyware.

_Maybe_ I could be persuaded to believe it gives you some inherent protection from viruses and worms. (That is, if I was after 12 beers or after a lobotomy. GNU/Linux and Mozilla have a metric buttload of security advisories too. And let's not forget that the words "rootkit", "to get rooted" or even "worm" come from the Unix world.)

But from spyware? Dream on. That stuff usually comes nicely packaged with an installer. And often hidden inside some other program's install, barely mentioned near the end of a 10,000 word EULA. (Yay! If you pay for our password remembering gizmo, you get our award winning spyware for FREE!)

The same Joe Average who cheerfully installs Gator on Windows, would just as cheerfully install it under Linux or MacOS. Even if he has to log in as root for that. (You did train him to only login as root to install stuff, so he'll do that.) Ditto for Mozilla spyware bars and plugins, if anyone bothered writing those. It's not like it doesn't support them or anything.

So basically you're bragging... what? That your great security advantage comes from being a minority noone gives a damn about? Well, gee.

Besides, Mozilla is buggy enough as it is. I guess even the scum at Claria aren't _that_ evil as to inflict even more pain on its poor users.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:Remember Kids... by bhima · 2004-08-17 23:23 · Score: 1

Like the same way we "force" people to get license before they drive?

--
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Re:Remember Kids... by CrimsonAvenger · 2004-08-18 00:37 · Score: 1

Why should it cost the governement?
You don't let people loose with a car on the roads without a driving test that they pay for themself.
Where are you from? I ask, because every place I live the only part of the driver's test that had to be paid by the driver was the gasoline in his car.

--

"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Re:Remember Kids... by fubar1971 · 2004-08-18 00:56 · Score: 1

I never thought I would see the day that the /. crowd would ever recommend that the government do anything to restrcit(and by restrict, I mean training. You know that Big Brother will then be forcing his own views on what you can and can't do.) a persons freedom on the Internet.

Don't get me wrong, I think adware should be completely abolished. I spend more time cleaning up crapware off of computers, than I do viruses. I personally believe the government is actually trying to do the right thing and litigate the way crapware is ditrubuted, and what it can do to your computer.

Unfortunatelly, I don't believe that it will ever be enforced. All of the crapware distributor's will just move off shore where they can't be touched.
Re:Remember Kids... by 1u3hr · 2004-08-18 00:59 · Score: 1

I've been wondering where does the "shm"-thing come from. The first time I heard it was on Mallrats. I quote:
I'm pretty sure it's Yiddish, I've heard variations on this in music hall routines. So it's at least 100 years old (some time previous to "Mallrats"); maybe the Marx Bros. Possibly a reference to words like: schlemiel, shmuck, schmendrick.
Re:Remember Kids... by fubar1971 · 2004-08-18 00:59 · Score: 1

How funny is that? When I click submit I received a popup ad.
Re:Remember Kids... by renderhead · 2004-08-18 01:17 · Score: 1

Please, that's just ridiculous. Let's try to approach this with some clarity of thought.

Notice: The message contained in this posting is under investigation by the legal team of Apple Computers, Inc. for the infringing use of the word "clarity".

--
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead
Re:Remember Kids... by NickFitz · 2004-08-18 01:59 · Score: 1

Never lived in the UK then? Maybe it's just in the US that the taxpayer pays for you to get a license...

--
Using HTML in email is like putting sound effects on your phone calls. Just say <strong>no</strong>.
Re:Remember Kids... by CrimsonAvenger · 2004-08-18 02:26 · Score: 1

Visited the UK a couple times. Never had reason to get a DL there. So no, I guess not.
In the USA (at least in the nine states I've lived in), the cost for a Driving Test is zero. There's a charge for the license, but it's nominal, at best - wouldn't cover the cost of the plastic and the wages of the guy supervising your driver's test, much less the other people who work at the DMV.

--

"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Re:Remember Kids... by Ilgaz · 2004-08-18 06:35 · Score: 1

I run only Mac G5 here and with os x of course, I don'T like anyone calling others "lusers", especially ones trapped in windows/x86.

I also think firefox for os x plainly sux since it uses quickdraw from -you know- 1990s, I bought Omniweb instead. They use methods which even Apple didn't dare to use yet.

So, don't alienate other people. Its also damn easy to code spyware on os x but they don't care yet. Its that easy.

Lets say, one of the über stuff spyware does is to grab where you are on web? Download ICQ for mac and click send url while Safari is open. See? It works.
Re:Remember Kids... by Lost+Race · 2004-08-18 09:38 · Score: 1

I use Opera and Mozilla and Eudora in Windows (98 and 2000, utterly unpatched from the original installation CDs). Never had any spyware ever, nor worms, trojan horses or viruses. I have a good friend who uses Windows with Internet Explorer and Outlook, and he has no malware problems either.
It's all about understanding how computers work and taking sensible precautions, not which brand name logos you wear. I don't even use anti-malware utilities, except for a read-only scan once a year or so just to prove to skeptics that there's no malware on my systems. Of course I'm always the last person in the world to see those dancing baby animations and java/flash/whatever applet games, and watching video clips can be a slight PITA without all those browser plugins... but that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Re:Remember Kids... by Frizzle+Fry · 2004-08-19 13:59 · Score: 1

In my intro linguistics class freshman year in college, we discussed shm reduplication as part of a lecture on linguistic games (also talking about pig latin and such), and the professor certainly implied that this had existed long before mallrats. In fact, he thought that the usage in mallrats actually violated the prior standards of use. I tried to argue that this was intentional on Smith's part and was the source of the humor.

--
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Re:Remember Kids... by Thomas+Shaddack · 2004-08-23 20:25 · Score: 1

so those who know nothing can't get help???
Correct.
thats useful, leaves those ISP helpdesk folks free to help us geeeks..... coz we ALL call helpdesks...
Oh, don't misunderstand me! Not everybody who knows something is a geek; there is a large space between "is-a-geek" and "has elementary knowledge".
The measure I proposed is intended to remove the most annoying drooling idiots who don't know that they have to switch the computer on and that a mouse is not a foot pedal. Such people shouldn't touch the computer before they sit down and read the manual. By removing the easy cop-out of calling the helpdesk, they will *have* to sit down and read the manual; it's what it is there for. At least the ulcers will be in *their* stomach, not on some low-paid helpdesk worker's one. As a bonus, the helpdeskers will have more time to spend on solving *real* problems.
Re:Remember Kids... by mo^ · 2004-08-23 21:02 · Score: 1

works for me!!!

and im one of the poor fuckers has to help idiots all day... and to make matters worse the idiots i support are central government workers!!!

more power to your plan dude

--
bah!*@%!

If Katz were writing the article by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:37 · Score: 0

The article would be titled "The Post-Spyware Hellmouth"

Re:If Katz were writing the article by Lord+Kano · 2004-08-17 09:14 · Score: 0

"The Post-Spyware Hellmouth Paradigm Principle"

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano

Where do you draw the line? by VAXGeek · 2004-08-17 08:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

What's the difference between advertising supported software which gathers marketing demographics and spyware?

Sweet sweet kickbacks to Yahoo, that's what.

--
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h

Re:Where do you draw the line? by NoMercy · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

Disclosure is one point, the other is advert supported programs have nice little boxes and parts of the GUI they fill with an advert.

Spyware tends to work out what your doing tells it's servers that and then optionally feeds you with replacement adverts or popups, so youre looking at a shop which sells trading cards and an advert pops up for another store which claims lower prices say.

But then more and more advert supported software is going back to plain old demo/shareware/timebomb arangements (case in point getright).
Re:Where do you draw the line? by saintp · 2004-08-17 09:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

When was the last time you read an EULA in full? What about your grandma? Name the last EULA she read in full.
Disclosure really doesn't matter when "NiftyFreeWebApp" buries the fact that it requires the sacrifice of your firstborn on page 972 of a EULA written in obfuscated legalese.

--
Another one bites the dust
Re:Where do you draw the line? by silas_moeckel · 2004-08-17 09:15 · Score: 1

There is a difference?

OK some would say up front and in your face warnings, something akin to we are going to take x information and give it to anybody we feel like/pays us. We are also going to collect y information and corralate it with x and again go and do whatever we please with it.

In general it's the y part of spyware that gets to people the fact that it's reporting home on every web page viewed, program ran and corralating it to other user data. I cant think of a reason why targeting marketing bits would ever need to phone home with anything more than a serial number as it pulls up it's new ad. Spyware often phones home with info about what the user is doing.

--
No sir I dont like it.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by ewhac · 2004-08-17 09:26 · Score: 2, Informative

Addendum: Mentioning spyware in the "license" does not constitute meaningful disclosure.
Schwab

--
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Re:Where do you draw the line? by kawika · 2004-08-17 09:33 · Score: 1

Sure, I admit that I don't fully read EULAs. The problem is that there needs to be some limit on what can be casually thrown into a EULA and be legally binding. As a software developer I fully expect most EULAs to say "we aren't responsible if you use our software and somehow it formats your drive or crashes your system and you lose valuable data". I say that too. But it's different to put all kinds of spyware provisions in there, or to allow the original software carte blanche to install any other software it sees fit and claim that you will be bound by their EULAs as well, even though you haven't seen them.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by afidel · 2004-08-17 09:39 · Score: 4, Informative

You don't have to bury it in the EULA and install spyware through the back door to do ad supported software. ICQ, Opera, and many shareware products incorperate ad sponsorship into the product in a manner that most users do not find offensive and which does not completely destroy the usefullness of the computer on which it is installed.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by saintp · 2004-08-17 09:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm aware of this. I use Opera (and love it!), used NetZero for the brief time that it was free, and other ad-supported software. Most of those practice true disclosure: You're getting a service in exchange for your eyes. And I'm fine with that.
But if someone is hawking something like EUniverse or Claria, then they're not going to be upfront and forthcoming about it, because their service isn't valuable enough. Opera is (or was; Firefox is gaining ground) a nice enough browser that I'm willing to put up with some ads, so I accept the EULA precisely because they're upfront about being ad-supported.
In contrast, no one would ever install a 404-redirect program if they knew what it would do up front. Instead, somewhere in the EULA is a paragraph explaining in euphemism a mile deep that the app hijacks your browser.
I'm not anti-ad-supported software; I think it allows some outstanding software to get into the world for free. (Obviously I'd prefer they GPL'd Opera, but I'll take what I can get.) I'm saying that forcing disclosure is basically masturbatory.

--
Another one bites the dust
Re:Where do you draw the line? by BobTheLawyer · 2004-08-17 10:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Do you read other contracts you sign, when you sign up for a credit card or buy a plane ticket? Most people don't. This doesn't prevent those contracts being generally enforceable.

An EULA is no different.

Whether unreasonable stuff in an EULA is enforceable is a different question. Here in the UK, our various national and EU consumer protection laws mean it's probably not. I've no idea what the answer is in the US, but it probably varies State to State.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by antic · 2004-08-17 10:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

I generally do read terms, contracts, etc. I read the T&C when buying a Dell laptop and then made them take it back when there was a single dead pixel. The T&C didn't say that 4 or so stuck pixels were required for a display to be considered faulty (as their support were claiming), so I was able to argue that it was not good enough.

Know the Terms/Contracts you've signed and be persistent -- do both of these things and you're one step closer to not being totally screwed by every service you use or product you buy.

--
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Mateito · 2004-08-17 10:20 · Score: 2, Funny

When was the last time you read an EULA in full?
Never
What about your grandma?
No, I haven't read her in full either.

--
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Chanc_Gorkon · 2004-08-17 10:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

This needs to be modded up. Big time. I run Weatherbug. It's ad supported and I know it installs the My Search toolbar as well. It also does not mind at all if you go into Add/Remove and remove it. Weatherbug continues to function after that. It tells you right upfront what it's installing and does not sneak it in. Claria probably doesn't do this sometimes.

One way we have prevented our Mom and Dad's from installing this stuff it to give them explicit instructions...now mom, everyday, you use this limited account and when you need to install something, either call me or use this Administrator sign on but DO NOT use this signon for anything but installing applications. Do not browse with it. This seemed to cure my little bro in law from having to go help his mom get rid of a virus or spyware. He also has scanners for virus and spyware installed as well and since he has to go pick his son up there every once in a while, he will do a sweep which is short instead of 3-4 hours removing spyware and viruses. Until most users adapt a UNIX like way of using their Windows machines, they will not be able to combat crap like Claria. If it starts to not work, then Claria will ahve to find another way to stay in business. Being vigilant in this battle will help us win...but being stupid and clicking OK whenever you see it WITHOUT READING THE BOX will kill you.

--
Gorkman
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:53 · Score: 0

Disclosure really doesn't matter when "NiftyFreeWebApp" buries the fact that it requires the sacrifice of your firstborn on page 972 of a EULA written in obfuscated legalese.

Correct. Such software is not disclosing anything.

Now, consider a hypothetical piece of software which, when you installed it, popped up a dialog box that said, quite simply, "By using this software you agree to allow us to collect data on your browsing habits; we will use this data to show you advertisements relevant to your interests, and we may share it with selected other companies. If you don't like the idea of that, please click 'CANCEL' now."

Would you still accuse that software of being evil spyware, or would you concede that satisfactory disclosure is possible?
Re:Where do you draw the line? by jesser · 2004-08-17 11:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

AIM is advertising-supported software because it displays its ads in the AIM window.

Kazaa is adware because it displays its ads while you use Internet Explorer. Pop-up adware often makes it difficult for users to tell what application the ads sponsor, which IMO is the point at which it becomes evil. I don't know whether Kazaa's ads say "This ad is shown using Claria technology to sponsor your use of Kazaa. To stop seeing these ads, uninstall Kazaa". I'm not going to install Kazaa to find out.

--
The shareholder is always right.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:43 · Score: 1, Interesting

Good point. I recently bought an LCD monitor with a single dead pixel.

The vendor tried to argue that "X number of dead pixels is normal" and I said, "Well, that's not mentioned in any of your advertisements nor in any of the contracts I have signed with you."

End result is that I got a new monitor.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by pslam · 2004-08-17 11:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

Do you read other contracts you sign, when you sign up for a credit card or buy a plane ticket? Most people don't. This doesn't prevent those contracts being generally enforceable.
An EULA is no different.
Actually, when I "agree" to an EULA, I don't expect to have someone knocking on my door in a few days time to repossess my house. I don't expect that to be followed by woman with very large hands coming through the door saying I married her by clicking on that button.
There's an expectation that people have when they sign a contract. If I'm signing a credit card or mortgage agreement, I expect lots of scary stuff to appear in the fine print. If I'm agreeing to a software license, I do NOT expect that it says "by the way we are going to spy on your every mouse click from now on" somewhere in point 23 of 54. That's underhanded and I would love think that it's somewhat illegal (fraud?), and void because it's not made in good faith. Of course it's not as simple as that otherwise they'd all be in jail by now. I can only dream.
You only have to look at the average amount of spyware installed on a computer (most people have 5+) to realise just how many people don't know what they're signing up for. Caveat empor? No, I think that idea should have died out with the Romans. It's an excuse for otherwise evil acts.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by SillyNickName4me · 2004-08-17 12:24 · Score: 1

Hmm... despite name changes, Claria doesn't leave any doubt about what they are doing.. that the average user is too clueless to realize the consequuence is an entirely different thing, till then they won't care.. Seems that times are changing somewhat tho.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by maximilln · 2004-08-17 12:27 · Score: 1

ICQ, Opera, and many shareware products incorperate ad sponsorship into the product in a manner that most users do not find offensive and which does not completely destroy the usefullness of the computer on which it is installed

I think the issue is then security. How confident are you that these innocuous helper tools are not easily compromised? You know,"Hi. I'm Mark. I'm a coder and, while I don't personally approve, my brother is a spammer. So when I write or see an ad supported network app that's exploitable, I tell him about it."

--
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Re:Where do you draw the line? by AstroDrabb · 2004-08-17 14:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

An EULA is different. Most software EULA are _only_ readable after you purchase the software. That would be like me selling you a house and getting payment and then showing you the terms that I wasn't _really_ selling it to you, just leasing it and I can take it away at any time. Now, if I did something like that, a judge would throw it out without question. However, would a judge be just as willing to throw out an EULA? I would hope so, but you never know with the US justice system.
I cannot see a judge holding up an EULA that you only got to read _after_ the purchase. I don't think any of those EULA would be enforceable.

--
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 18:05 · Score: 0

The moment another OS becomes a commercially viable target THAT will get targeted as well (or instead).

The typical immature and childish anti-Microsoft attitude of /. users prevents you from recognising that simple fact.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by BobTheLawyer · 2004-08-17 18:58 · Score: 1

But there are many contracts which you only read after a purchase; what about the terms and conditions on the back of a train or plane ticket? This is even more egregious as you have no way to refuse these terms.

In the case of software there are two separate contracts. One between you and the shop. Another between you and the software company, governed by the EULA. As a matter of contract law, this is not an unusual situation.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Mycroft_VIII · 2004-08-17 20:11 · Score: 1

Not exactly. The store bought the software under thier agreement to the publisher. You bought it from the store. The store is the only entity you gave consideration to and vice versa, you had NO dealings with the publisher.
Plus adding a contract to a finished product AFTER it was purchased HAS been ruled against in the past. It's taken many years (as in approximately 100+) for anyone to get up nerve to try again after the courts took it apart the first time. I would guesse they think computers are so 'high tech' that the courts could mistakenly believe different rules aply. The've even tried the argument that since the data/program is copied to ram and hard drive to be used it would violate copyright unless they gave you a 'liscense' to do otherwise that they could add all this crap to. Not that I think they've actually tried it in court, judges would at least spot that bull.
I do however remember one case where a eula was upheld. Frankly the judge was seriously stretching some reasoning and bending a few concepts to nail a bastard who needed to be nailed. Some guy kept buying the personal version of some software database and reusing it on a pay-website with his own data added and the judge decided that since he'd bought it 3 times he had to know about the eula by the second and third time and the whole thing could be treated like an on-going situation such as building a house or fixing a car where the details of the costs and services change even though money has already exchanged hands. A VERY weak concatonation of reasoning in an egregious situation (the info in a database is just a collection of facts, not copywriteable in of itself, thus the need for the eula instead of straight infringement).

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Pofy · 2004-08-17 20:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

For airline and train travels and such, those agreements are typically made between some sort of organization representing those selling travels and some goverment or consumer organization. It is standard agreements that would apply to everyone selling airline travels for example and thus an individual airline can't add extra parts (like we don't do engine maintenance so tough luck if we crash).

As for software, I can see the "two separate" contracts, and of course that is not a problem, the problem is that it is a contract forced onto you AFTER you allready bought the software. If the contracts (both between shop and software compnay) were done befre the purchase, it would be another matter, now it is done after you allready bought and own a copy of the software and at that point, someone else can't force you to agree to a contract just because you want to use what you bought.

Having the contracts agreed at time of purchase is not a problöem or uncommon. When you buy a cell phone, it is not uncommon that the deal is sponsored by a company that handle the phone calls. So you also sign up with them for a year or something. However, those deals are always done, signed, agreed and so on in the shop before you buy the phone. You never see someone selling you a phone for $1 and thwn when you get home and try to use it, you are shown a contract that you can only use it when calling through company X and at specific costs and so on.

That is how software sales should be set up IF there is a need for additional contracts as part of the sale. It is worth mentioning that a huge part of many EULA are actually not needed at all since it is allready part of laws (for example copyright laws). Other parts are unenforcable anyway (depending on country and laws). The actual additional agreement is usually not that much and almpst always restrictions on what the buyer can do.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by NuclearDog · 2004-08-17 20:39 · Score: 0

I'm pretty sure that he\she wasn't saying everyone needed to install *nix right now to solve the problem, he was suggesting that people should adopt the *nix mindset of only using root when required, and using a normal user account for daily tasks.

Meaning don't browse the internet as an administrator, use a limited user account.

ND

--
This statement is forty-five characters long.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by NuclearDog · 2004-08-17 20:43 · Score: 0

AFAIK, if you un-install kazaa, all that adware\spyware shit will still be installed.

ND

--
This statement is forty-five characters long.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by BobTheLawyer · 2004-08-17 20:46 · Score: 1

Incorrect. You can analyse it either as a collateral contract or by saying that the consideration for the EULA is either the grant of a license.

I have no idea which case you're referring to regarding adding a contract to a finished product, but somehow I doubt the relevance.

The proposition that EULAs are ineffective as a general matter has, as far as I'm aware, no support in any authority in any common law jurisdiction.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by BobTheLawyer · 2004-08-17 20:49 · Score: 1

"For airline and train travels and such, those agreements are typically made between some sort of organization representing those selling travels and some goverment or consumer organization."

This is nonsense. Look at the back of the next ticket you buy, whether for a concert, a train or a flight.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Mycroft_VIII · 2004-08-17 22:08 · Score: 1

"I have no idea which case you're referring to regarding adding a contract to a finished product, but somehow I doubt the relevance."

IIRC, it refers to a practice that was tried in the 1800's with books because of weak copyright laws in the US vs Europe. somthing very simular to an eula was put on one of the spare pages found in a book that said 'by buying this you agree...'. Judges tossed the ridiculous crap left repeatedly. Basically it's not kosher to add condition to a sale AFTER the sale is complete. And that is what eulas try to do.
"You can analyse it either as a collateral contract or by saying that the consideration for the EULA is either the grant of a license."

Not shure what the other half of your eigther is. Or what liscense is granted, the use of the software is implicit, and normal copyright law prohibits copying for other than backup.
Now if your saying the eula offers more options than you would otherwise have in exchange for it's additional restrictions, that's a different set of items than the purchase and normal use of the software.
AFAIK the one case I mentioned is the only one where a 'shrink wrap liscense' was upheld. Where as add on 'contracts' sprung on the purchaser of goods after the purchase was complete have been a non-starter since the late 1800's, wish I could rember the term for it.
It's the alot like selling somthing to someone for the agreed price of $100, but writing in a hidden place that the buyer owes an extra $250.

It's been a while since I did much reading on this (late '80, when this eula crap started), but a lot of experts thought them useless scare tactics on the part of software makers to try and manipulate end users into thinking they didn't have rights they did in fact have.
Now if some specific law (or change there to) or wierd court ruling at a significant level has occured since then I'm out of date, but otherwise I see no reason (other than a tendency of $$ to win in court) to see eulas (specificaly the kind sprung on users after purchase. Not those the user see before downloading or buying somthing) having gained any new credibility .

Mycroft

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Pofy · 2004-08-18 02:06 · Score: 1

*checks back of airline ticket*

Yup, follows regulations set up by IATA.

*checks what governs my next charter trip*

Yup, regulations set up by agreements by the joint travel agensies group (not sure about correct english word, but most travel angencies are members) and a govermental part dealing with consumer issues in Sweden (Konsumentverket)

*checks regulations for possible sea travel tickt to buy*

Yup, travel regulations include international treaties for sea transport of passangers.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by BobTheLawyer · 2004-08-18 07:59 · Score: 1

I'm sorry, but I've no idea what you're talking about. EULAs don't add anything to the contract between retailer and consumer: they create a contract between publisher and consumer.

Your problem with this seems philosophical rather than legal. So try thinking about this: what's your view of EULAs that give the consumer more rights than they would otherwise have? Take, for example, Borland's old "like a book" licence. By your reasoning, this didn't work.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by BobTheLawyer · 2004-08-18 08:07 · Score: 1

Golly, there was I thinking I was talking about common law contract law. I don't pretend to have a clue what the position is in Swedish law.

The idea that the validity of contractual terms on the back of a ticket is determined by whether the terms are related to some kind of governing body is unsupported by any authority of which I'm aware in any common law jurisdiction.
Re:Where do you draw the line? by Mycroft_VIII · 2004-08-18 14:33 · Score: 1

Just one question, how can a eula (to be specific, I'm talking about the eula's that are sprung on the user AFTER he paid for the product in the store and took it home, if they were presented as conditions of reciept of the product before sale then they're normal contracts) create any sort of contract between the publisher and end user?
A contract, as I understand it, is an agreement between two parties who each give the other somthing. If the publisher is only taking things away in the eula then what are they giving the buyer didn't already have when he bought the software in the first place? If the answer is nothing then how can there be a contract? Back when this was tried with books the courts seemed to largely agree the after sale contracts were just wasted paper and had no leagle standing. Where doese software suddenly get a different treatment?
As far as a eula that grants more rights than default, that's eigther an offer of a contract, or a well defined gift depending on whether any consideration is asked of the other party.
It's one thing to offer someone a prize with thier cereal, or offer them a toaster if they send in 5 box tops, it's another entirely to put a note in the box saying that by opening the box and eating any of the cereal they agree to send in $10 for the right to eat the cereal they bought.
The problem here seems to be the view that software bought leagly in a store is somehow special and normal rules of buying and selling don't aply and you can do all sorts of after the fact rules changes by fiat. I see no reason why first sale shouldn't apply. Once the publisher has sold it they only have the considerations agreed to at purchase and the protections afforded by law, not some arbitrary rules they wish to apply later.

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:Where do you draw the line? by antic · 2004-08-18 18:22 · Score: 1

Good job.

The majority of people will take that "x dead pixels are normal" line as the final word. Just make sure that you're not one of those people. Squeaky wheel gets the oil. Survival of the fittest. Don't let them have their way if you're entitled to have yours.

--
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'

Cliche by dmayle · 2004-08-17 08:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's like the old detective cliche, follow the money. The problem with both spyware/adware, and spam, is that they're profitable. Beating this stuff with technological measures alone is never going to be easy. If we really want something done, we've got to find ways to make sure these people and/or companies can't make money doing it...

Re:Cliche by ciurana · 2004-08-17 08:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

Way to go, dmayle.

The URI in your .sig leads us to what at first sight seems to be a iPod pyramid scam. I find myself hard pressed to take your comments on the current topic seriously.

Cheers,

E

--
http://eugeneciurana.com | http://ciurana.eu
Re:Cliche by gl4ss · 2004-08-17 08:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

*The problem with both spyware/adware, and spam, is that they're profitable*

well, actually, they don't even need to be profitable. it just needs to APPEAR profitable for some people to try it, which will fuel other people into trying it because 'it must work since someone is doing it'.

true, mega corps like claria are on a bit different level but anyways..

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Cliche by kneecarrot · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

Well, I've been watching the spam lately and to my eyes it looks like technology is slowly making spam less profitable. Spam filters are becoming so effective that spammers are being forced to litter their messages with nonsense words and mispellings. These nonsense words and mispellings make the receiver of the spam less likely to purchase anything. And so (hopefully) the cycle will continue.

--
I always save my last mod point to mod up a good troll. You people are too serious.
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:01 · Score: 0

Let's see then, I think I understand this. How about we tar and feather them? It's non-technological, it makes it much harder for them to do business, and as a bonus it would be immensely fun.
Re:Cliche by foobsr · 2004-08-17 09:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

If we really want something done, we've got to find ways to make sure these people and/or companies can't make money doing it...

What about something along the lines of feeding fake data back - I remember to have read an article/comment on that, but cannot remember how I found it & not in the mood to look for it again.

The key point is/was to boost processing cost on the noise side.

CC.

--
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Re:Cliche by DeepHurtn! · 2004-08-17 09:14 · Score: 2, Informative

During goldrushes, it was very seldom the prospectors that actually made any money -- the people who really got rich were the shopowners who sold supplies to the people who actually looked for gold. I think that spam, at least, is like that -- the real business is probably selling the tools of the trade to idiots who will go out of business in half a year.
Re:Cliche by nolife · 2004-08-17 09:21 · Score: 1

I assume this is the typical with spam also. The spammer gets paid to send spam, regardless of the outcome of the spam click thru.. You lose with junk mail, the seller loses because of low clickthru, owners of abused systems lose, but the spammer wins.

--
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Re:Cliche by jdhutchins · 2004-08-17 09:22 · Score: 0, Offtopic

The URL in his sig is not a scam. I've seen it before, and was *very* skeptical. I did some research, and it's not a scam. In order to get your free ipod, you need to get a certain number of people to sign up for similar offers (they cost ~$20 each iirc). It's not a scam.
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:28 · Score: 0

Sniff the packets, reverse engineer the protocol, but they could encrypt everything (in this case the key would be hard-coded, easy to retrieve). I doubt this is an easy task but someone can try...
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:29 · Score: 0

Just because you can actually get an iPod doesn't mean it's not a pyramid scheme.
Re:Cliche by empaler · 2004-08-17 09:30 · Score: 1

...to idiots who will go out of business in half a year... making room for another new wave of idiots...
Re:Cliche by dmayle · 2004-08-17 09:31 · Score: 3, Informative

The URI in my .sig is not a pyramid scam, but it is a marketing thing. If you're not interested, don't go there. This is very offtopic, but for anyone who wants to know what it is without clicking in my sig, it's a marketing company who gives rewards for getting other people to try out the services of their clients. It's not a scam, as it doesn't require you to put any money into it, and you're not getting paid off by other people. Marketing companies pay money for customer acquisition, and this marketing company has decided on a rather novel approach to getting you to try something. Giving part of the money to you. No software required, nothing installed, and if you're intelligent, you will use a one-off email address, because, even though they promise not to share your info with anyone else, their clients probably haven't (companies like AOL, columbia house, etc.)

For the record, I joined because of someone else's slashdot link, and the company has done nothing but act respectfully. No popups, no spam (so far), no attempts to misrepresent themselves, etc.

Marketing is not going to stop. People want to try to sell you stuff. What's abhorred here is companies who try to take over your computer to make money, even when you haven't given consent, or don't realize what's happening. Also, those companies who try to contact you without your permission, or prior inquiry.
Re:Cliche by multimed · 2004-08-17 09:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is the point I've been trying to make for awhile. Everyone always thinks it's all about the fact that spam is so cheap that it only takes a few clicks thru or purchases out of millions for them to be profitable. If this were really the case, spam would probably be about gone already because between filters at the ISP and user level and the fact the in my life, I know exactly zero people who have bought something from spam. It's not about response rate--spammers get paid to send the spam and manage to convince greedy people that if only 1% of a million buy it they'll be rich. They also get paid by selling their lists of email addresses. Think about it--if you send out a million spams, you'll get X% back as undeliverable and can update you database. In this manner they can charge a "business" to send out their "targetted marketing message" and throw in a few thousand randomly generated addresses. The undeliverables get pulled, lather rince repeat. Turn around & sell the database. And when times are slow, just send a blank message or gibberish or whatever to keep testing for new addresses. This is why you get spam with no message sometimes.

--
Vote Quimby.
Re:Cliche by gl4ss · 2004-08-17 09:44 · Score: 1

yes, like cd's full of email addresses for 150$ and whatever..

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:05 · Score: 0

It's not a scam, as it doesn't require you to put any money into it, and you're not getting paid off by other people ... this marketing company has decided on a rather novel approach to getting you to try something. Giving part of the money to you.

Right. After you've signed up a certain number of "other people".

Sorry, what part of "pyramid scheme" do you not understand?
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:04 · Score: 1, Insightful

Erm.. what do you think a pyramid scheme is?
Re:Cliche by desmogod · 2004-08-17 11:16 · Score: 0

Which means, it then is profitable.... If enough people use it at a minimal profit, it becomes very profitable.
Re:Cliche by pershino · 2004-08-17 11:19 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Who cares. Scam or not. It's just a way of harvesting more email addresses to add to endless spam lists. Just go there and feed it fake email data to taint their lists.
Re:Cliche by Trillian_1138 · 2004-08-17 11:33 · Score: 1, Offtopic

That is a pyramid scheme. At some point, people will run out of new people to sign up, and thus not get their iPod. It's not quite a 'scam' (they're telling the truth) but, like all pyramid schemes, in the end those at the very bottom will get screwed.
-Trillian
Re:Cliche by CAIMLAS · 2004-08-17 11:57 · Score: 1

Then we need to change the education system of the country. We're got too many stupid, unintelligent people. Schools teach people facts, but not how to reason, deduct, or solve problems.

That's the crux of the matter. If people were self aware (and most aren't, because they don't analyze themselves), most of the social ills.

--
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 12:05 · Score: 0

there's a difference between a scam and a scheme.

in the end a pyramid scheme tends to scam the people who are caught at the end, but an intelligent person can take that probability into account when becoming a part of it.

a scam is deceptive; a pyramid scheme is misleading.

BTW, in a classic pyramid scheme, the people at the bottom pay for the gains of the people at the top, and lose money. It appears in this that the people at the bottom lose nothing but a bit of time and perhaps privacy.

OK, so it's splitting hairs. [shrug] isn't that what /. is about anyway?
Re:Cliche by labratuk · 2004-08-17 12:07 · Score: 0, Offtopic

You will not see that iPod.

--
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Re:Cliche by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · 2004-08-17 12:08 · Score: 1

The problem is, all this stuff gets sold on again and again. People will pay for the "noise" as well - by the time anyone figures out its bogus data, it's probably been mixed, churned and remixed and the original source lost to history.

Hence, unable to pinpoint the bad source, people will probably keep sending money to the party you're flooding. The money is not in selling products to the gullible, although there is money to be made there. The money is in the pyramid style organisation of the industry.
YLFI

--
One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
Re:Cliche by dr_labrat · 2004-08-17 12:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

Which is nice... but did you get an Ipod...?

Did your friends...?

--
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
Re:Cliche by logic+hack · 2004-08-17 12:19 · Score: 0

It not a pyramid scam silly, its a power triangle! :D
Re:Cliche by maximilln · 2004-08-17 12:30 · Score: 1

it just needs to APPEAR profitable for some people to...

Invest in it? .com? 401(k)? The stock market from 1999-2002? The retirement accounts of millions of Americans? The Congressional proposal to send our social security money into that black hole to save their well-vested butts?

--
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Re:Cliche by gewalker · 2004-08-17 12:32 · Score: 1

I am one of two partners for an IT consulting company with 12 employees. One day, not long ago a customer said he need a few copies of MS Office, and could we take care of that for him. My partner received spam at almost that exact time for Cheap MS Office, like $80 or so. And said, Hmmm, maybe spam is not so bad after all.

Partner is not stupid (one of the more talented people I know, be developing software for 25 years, and his stuff is good). However, he had never considered what makes spam work, and what spammers are. I immediately said, don't do it, spam is evil. After a little Googling, I showed him where spammer was strongly suspected to be a importer of pirate software from China. This is nothing I want to be associated with, nor does he.

A lot of spam is delivering (or failing to deliver) fraudulent goods or services. Supported by outright theft of computer services via hacked computers to send their spam. Or directly criminal, where the point of the spam is to engage in criminal activity such as investment fraud, Ponzi schemes, etc.

All spammers deserve to be in hell. They cause huge amounts of monetary and social damage to millions of innocent people based on their own greed hoping to make some easy money. Malware promoters deserve the same.

Does the sin of avarice ring a bell? I'm a religious man. I believe spammers will get what they deserve eventually, unless they repent. Preach the gospel of repentance and forgiveness and maybe we can get less spam in the deal too.
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 14:09 · Score: 0

It is obviously pyramidical, and it has serious potential for scam. Or did you not read the terms and conditions?

"1. Receipt of Product (a) FreeiPods.com is a free service and does not guarantee receipt of any product regardless of offers completed or points accumulated."

Yeah, basically they guarantee jack squat. Yes, I know some people have actually received iPods, but generally only people who did it in the first two weeks or so this thing came public, and they had to wait months. My guess is they sent out iPods to the first wave of people who did it, but at this point they're just letting the referrals and affiliate money pour in and they're not legally binded to send out a damn iPod at all.
Re:Cliche by phazethru · 2004-08-17 14:29 · Score: 1

Keeping with the times, I've outsourced my new sign-ups to India.

Just like American friends, but at 1/7th the cost!

--
"I am the Black Mage! I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down!" ~8BT
Re:Cliche by syousef · 2004-08-17 16:22 · Score: 1

It's like the old detective cliche, follow the money. The problem with both spyware/adware, and spam, is that they're profitable. Beating this stuff with technological measures alone is never going to be easy. If we really want something done, we've got to find ways to make sure these people and/or companies can't make money doing it.

That's easier said than done. It's analogous to saying the way to stop theft (or drug dealing, or any other crime that the perpetrator perceives a benefit) from happening is to make it unprofitable. That's true and the logic is flawless. Now please explain how you intend to do it?

Hell that's how you stop large companies from abusing copyright and patent law too. Make it unprofitable.

When you have new and workable ideas on how I'll be here listening.

--
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Re:Cliche by Jussi+K.+Kojootti · 2004-08-17 16:46 · Score: 1

I do not think pyramid scam means what you think it means.
Re:Cliche by Mycroft_VIII · 2004-08-17 20:21 · Score: 1

Also Pyramid schemes are illeagle in the United States and many other companies. However a variant called multi-level-marketing is leagle. These are the schemes where you sign up people under you to sell things and cuts of what's sold get passed up the chain so many levels.
The difference tends to hinge on wether the primary goal is building the pyramid, or selling a product or service independent of the pyramid.
Both are a good way to loose money, except maybe the few mlm's that don't have a 'sign on fee' or some such methode whereby you pay them then have to sell $x in goods to break even.
MLM's can work for agressive, skilled, good salesmen types, but usually everyone else makes little or even looses.

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:Cliche by Mycroft_VIII · 2004-08-17 20:28 · Score: 2, Informative

Well just looked at the link, shure looks borderline to me. send us $$ get 20 others to do so and get I-pod. This with non-functional links to thier terms and privacy policy. I didn't bother to try find out wich country thier operating out of to avoid the lawsuits and such when they happen.

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:Cliche by huffybugger · 2004-08-17 20:55 · Score: 0

You just about described pyramid scams. I'd never thought of it like that before. How long until we are all spaming each other? God help them in Albania!

--
"Stop remembering TV and do some work!"
Re:Cliche by mungeh · 2004-08-17 23:34 · Score: 1

There's an article on Wired that confirms this guy's story that they are legit: http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,64614,00.html
Re:Cliche by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-18 00:32 · Score: 0

My friend, that has to be the funniest spam-related comment I've ever seen.

The ending is pure comedic genius:

"Does the sin of avarice ring a bell? Preach the gospel of repentance and forgiveness and we can get less spam."

How do you come up with this fantastic stuff?

I've added that to my collection of quotes to be appended at random to emails I send out.

Thanks for putting a smile on my face!
Re:Cliche by someone247356 · 2004-08-18 02:10 · Score: 1

I think it was a typo, but somehow oddly appropriate, when you wrote;

"Also Pyramid schemes are illeagle [sic] in the United States and many other companies ."

someone247356

--
Just my $0.02 (Canadian, before taxes)
Re:Cliche by Mycroft_VIII · 2004-08-18 14:38 · Score: 1

Yeah both are typo's. My thinking gets out of sync with my hands sometimes, my hands don't catch the re-word of somthing till they've typed half of it :). My spelling is also atrocious.
Then again it's better than my speaking somtimes, I can subtly corrupt the meaning of what I'm saying by not using the right words for my meaning, but my subconsious makes a bad attempt at putting SOMTHING that sounds apropriate in there when it can't find the right word. At least this is usually spotable and original meaning deriveable. I hope.

Mycroft

--
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Re:Cliche by Rich+Klein · 2004-08-24 14:58 · Score: 1

Pyramid scams/schemes/whatever destroyed the economy of Albania. ISTR that this resulted in a flood of refugees to Italy. Pyramid schemes hurt us all. Here's an article about the Albanian pyramid schemes.

How soon we forget...

--
-Rich

dante by websensei · 2004-08-17 08:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

(mods, this is a bit of an aside, but ontopic/relevant given the author's use of dante's levels of hell in his ranking system. consider it a footnote)

I stongly recommend reading N. Tosche's "in the hand of dante" as a circuitous but gratifying way to learn about the author and the divine comedy.
plus it's a terrific read.

--

La via sola al paradiso incommincia nel inferno

Re:dante by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:51 · Score: 2, Informative

and btw, if you'd like to read the actual Divina Commedia for free online (with footnotes in Italian) you can see it at:

http://www.mediasoft.it/dante/
Re:dante by pilgrim23 · 2004-08-17 09:06 · Score: 2, Informative

Dorty Sayers, the Author of the Lord Peter Whimsey series of murder mysteries is also a noted translator of the Divine Comedy. Highly recomended. The mystery novels are also a ripping good read!

--
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Re:dante by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:58 · Score: 0

Dorty Sayers

I think you mean "Dorothy"... and she's usually cited with her initial (L), as well.

Have to agree with the assessment of her works, though. Although my college still hasn't quite forgiven her for "Gaudy Night"...
Re:dante by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 19:20 · Score: 0

Nick Tosches has written some great books. Hellfire (Jerry Lee Lewis bio); Country- the Twisted Roots of Rock 'n Roll; Trinities; Dino... these I have read, his others are on my list, but few of the dozens of books I have read in the past six or so years were not technical in nature.
Re:dante by NuclearDog · 2004-08-17 20:53 · Score: 0

Is it so hard to use the A tag, or the Slashdot-specific URL tag, even?

http://www.mediasoft.it/dante/

--
This statement is forty-five characters long.
Re:dante by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 22:54 · Score: 0

However, reading the title, all I could think of was:
"Burn, baby, burn
Dante's inferno!
Burn, baby, burn. ..."

So... by Edmund+Blackadder · 2004-08-17 08:40 · Score: 4, Funny

Which circle do Cilicon Valley venture capitalists go to?

Re:So... by Aardpig · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 1

Which circle do Cilicon Valley venture capitalists go to?

I think you meant 'ring'. Anyway, surely it's the bottomless pit?

--
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Re:So... by Txiasaeia · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 1

Have you read the Divine Comedy? It's nine circles of hell, not rings. You've obviously got Frodo on the brain ;)

--
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:31 · Score: 0

Have you watched the 3 Ring movies by Hideo Nakata? It's more a well filled with water than a bottomless pit.
Re:So... by empaler · 2004-08-17 09:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm guessing the Malebølge.
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:17 · Score: 0

WTF? From the description: "a Silicon Valley Venture Capitalist uses the levels of hell in Dante's Inferno to do just that." We're not talking about the ring, we're talking about Dante's Inferno. Read much?
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-18 05:24 · Score: 0

Well first they travel down the river ctyx and then Catan determines which sircle they go to.

lol... by jmrobinson · 2004-08-17 08:40 · Score: 5, Funny

she called us "the slashdot crowd."

but...down to business
All right...who told her we would actually get off our asses and burn someone at the stake?

Re:lol... by happyfrogcow · 2004-08-17 08:47 · Score: 2, Funny

All right...who told her we would actually get off our asses and burn someone at the stake?

Havn't you heard? We have remote control robots to do that for us now.

Let the burning begin!
Re:lol... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:00 · Score: 0

>Havn't you heard? We have remote control robots to do that for us now.

>Let the burning begin!

Well I, for one, welcome our new spyware-author incinerating, medival mechanical overlords. Can they measure whether the spyware weighs the same as a duck?

No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

I am a windows developer of a small program with about 4000 users. Without spyware I would not be in business, since most people crack my s/w and dont pay after the trial.

Thanks to spyware, I am still make a living.

Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:44 · Score: 1, Funny

I hope you dont belive in karma.
Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:44 · Score: 1, Funny

What is the program you sell? Link? I always like to help small developers if they make a useful product.
Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:46 · Score: 5, Funny

Thanks to spyware, I am still make a living.

Well, at least I can see why you didn't become a writer.
Re:No... by syn3rg · 2004-08-17 08:51 · Score: 5, Funny

And thanks to you, I'm making pretty good cash cleaning up these systems that you infect ^H^H^H^H install.

--
The contents of this message have been doubly encrypted by ROT13
Re:No... by NighthawkFoo · 2004-08-17 10:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

As depair.com says,

"If you're not a part of the solution, there's good money to be made by prolonging the problem."

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
- Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:48 · Score: 1, Funny

He makes a small product called Claria
Re:No... by AC-x · 2004-08-17 10:57 · Score: 1

So by "spyware" you mean your program phones home when registering? That's hardly tracking peoples browser usage and keylogging everything they type which is what most programs known as "spyware" do. I don't mind Ad supported software either as long as its not sending any usage statistics back to a server anywhere.
Re:No... by suss · 2004-08-17 11:11 · Score: 1

Thanks to spyware, I am still make a living.

Fuck you very much!

Why don't you tell us what software it is, so we can all avoid it like a plague of rabid weasels?

Oh wait. You posted as anonymous coward. You don't want us to know what worthless spyware-ridden crap you write.

Nevermind.
Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:49 · Score: 0

Thanks to spyware, I am still make a living.
Translate any technical manuals from Chinese to English lately?
Re:No... by TheSpoom · 2004-08-17 12:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

Good for you, you take advantage of your customers' goodwill and divert their computers' resources to do God knows what for . I can sure tell you have a lot of respect for your users.

--
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 22:58 · Score: 0

Pity.
Re:No... by Digz · 2004-08-18 00:49 · Score: 1

FYI, check this out. I always thought your sig was Voltaire's until I found that site.

--
SYS 64738
Re:No... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-18 09:48 · Score: 0

If they're cracking out the trial expiration, they're probably cracking out the spyware too. Good luck with that.

IDS's by kc0re · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 5, Informative

I run IDS's for about 9 different Class C's and a handful of Class B subnets out there. I would say Gator, (to include all of it's baddies, stuff like, PrecisionTime and PrecisionDate), are about 60% of the signatures that alert on those IDS's. Not much I can do about it except report to the SA's which in turn choose to ignore me or run with it, but malware in general is becoming more of a prevalent problem. And frankly it's annoying.

It's not just the shady companies by gbulmash · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Besides spyware, what annoys me is "user agents". Quicktime, RealPlayer, and Winamp all have little TSR's that load at start-up and eat megabytes of memory for "quality assurance" and "ease of use" purposes. I don't know how many times I've tried to disable qttask.exe or realsched.exe in my start up only to have it come back unexpectedly. Winamp's is easy to disable at setup, but Quicktime and Real require you to dig.

I don't say they're delivering ads or sending back personally identifiable info to their manufacturers, but they are using my resources without giving me what I consider to be any perceptible advantage.

If we're going to legislate spyware, these user agents need to be considered and the law needs to require Apple and Real to provide better notice of them and make them easier to shut down permanently.

- Greg

--
Start a happiness pandemic

Re:It's not just the shady companies by Cowclops · 2004-08-17 08:44 · Score: 2, Informative

Are you removing them using msconfig? That seems to always do the trick for me. Just erasing them from the startup section in the start menu won't necessarily do it.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by NickDngr · 2004-08-17 08:49 · Score: 1

I don't know about the Real one, but qttask will put itself back if you try to disable using msconfig.

--
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
Re:It's not just the shady companies by VAXGeek · 2004-08-17 08:50 · Score: 5, Informative

Removing the Quicktime task is really pretty simple.

1) Find qttask.exe
2) Rename or delete.

Disable Real's SmartCenter by right-clicking on the real icon in your system tray (bottom right hand corner of the Windows screen) and select Disable Smartcenter.

Hardly "digging".

--
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Re:It's not just the shady companies by The+Bungi · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 2, Informative

That piece of unadulterated excrement QTask was bad in version 5 because it could not be turned off. If you removed it from the "Run" key in the registry the player would set it every time it loaded. So, the solution was to go into the directory where the exe resided and rename it to something like "-qttask.exe" or whatever. Presto.
In version 6 you can right-click on the icon and set a preference to not have it load every time the machine starts up.
I just wish the stupid Outlook 2003 icon could be killed as well.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by throughthewire · 2004-08-17 08:54 · Score: 5, Informative

I had to grin when you referred to the tray programs as TSRs. You've been doing this awhile, eh?
One little utility I find helpful is Mike Lin's StartupMonitor. It hollers at you whenever something (AIM, Real, Quicktime, etc.) attempts to register an executable to run at startup, and allows you to approve (or more to the point, deny) the attempt. Useful and educational!
Re:It's not just the shady companies by mdfst13 · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 1

If you run regedit and remove the registry key, they won't run anymore. Unfortunately, they come back when the program is run (at least Real's do).

msconfig might avoid this, since the registry key remains (it just isn't used). Of course, then you have the added resources of running msconfig (which is only supposed to be a diagnostic tool) during startup. I'm not sure how much this differs from a normal startup (e.g. does it always do the msconfig checks, or is that added when msconfig is used).

I have also used some software that will add itself again if disabled in msconfig (i.e. you will have enabled and disbled entries in msconfig). I'm not sure about Real -- I avoid using it for exactly that reason.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by NeoSkandranon · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 1

I unticked the box in msconfig (WinXP) and it stayed gone...

--
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Re:It's not just the shady companies by mdfst13 · 2004-08-17 08:58 · Score: 1

Did you run Quicktime *after* you did it? Did you *update* quicktime after disabling qttask? Those are the two times when it would turn itself back on.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by pdh11 · 2004-08-17 09:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

I don't say they're delivering ads or sending back personally identifiable info to their manufacturers, but they are using my resources without giving me what I consider to be any perceptible advantage.

Rio Music Manager has one, too, and the reason we put it there is because there are certain things that Rio Music Manager needs to do (such as send custom USB commands to portables) which can't be done by an unprivileged user under Windows. So at install time -- assuming it's installed by an administrator -- the service gets run with admin privileges, and then later, when unprivileged Rio Music Manager runs, it can send custom USB commands via the service.

On Linux it's probably just "chmod 660 /dev/sdwhatever ; chgrp portable /dev/sdwhatever" and adding people to group portable, but on Windows it's not so easy. Not all background tasks are necessarily malicious.

Peter
Re:It's not just the shady companies by drinkypoo · 2004-08-17 09:00 · Score: 2, Informative

Been doing it wrong for a while, I'm guessing, since they are not nor do they resemble TSRs. As you probably know (but this is for the audience) TSRs only leave a piece of themselves in memory and the programs which put the icons in the system tray are full-fledged processes.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:It's not just the shady companies by tuxedobob · 2004-08-17 09:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

Can anyone say what this qttask.exe actually does? There doesn't seem to be a Mac-side counterpart.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Octos · 2004-08-17 09:08 · Score: 5, Informative

Uhhhh. Did anybody in this thread bother to check the program preferences?

In Quicktime preferences: uncheck "Quick Time system tray icon" and it will never come back.

I haven't messed with Real player in a long time, but I recall a similar option being available if you right-click the tray icon, possibly in a preference panel.

I'm sorry it's so easy.

--
"I am not a number! I am a free man!"-- The Prisoner
Re:It's not just the shady companies by boopus · 2004-08-17 09:08 · Score: 1

Kind of funny that you've got to keep a memory resident program running in order to prevent more memory resident programs, eh?
Re:It's not just the shady companies by cortana · 2004-08-17 09:09 · Score: 2, Informative

I have the idea that it keeps all the various settings Windows has for file association in sync with what the user has specified in the QT control panel.

But qttask is easy to get rid of! The Quicktime control panel has a checkbox for it, and once unchecked it is gone forever, inlcluding a reinstall or upgrade of QT as far as I remember.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by throughthewire · 2004-08-17 09:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

...TSRs only leave a piece of themselves in memory...
Aaaand as you probably know, TSRs are real-mode DOS giblets that wouldn't run under NT and NT-derived Windows in any case.
Thus the amusement. But we knew what he meant, no need to beat him up, eh?
Re:It's not just the shady companies by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · 2004-08-17 09:13 · Score: 1, Informative

I just wish the stupid Outlook 2003 icon could be killed as well.
Your wish is our command, master. Look here.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by ElForesto · 2004-08-17 09:13 · Score: 1

Spybot 1.3 with the TeaTimer add-on does the same thing. Oh yeah, and it guards against most spyware.

--
There is a difference between "insightful" and "inciteful" other than spelling.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by throughthewire · 2004-08-17 09:14 · Score: 1

Pathetic, really.
But it's free, resource-light, does what it's supposed to do, doesn't do anything else, and it goes away when you tell it to. Not bad for a Windows program, eh?
Yes, I know if you don't use Windows you don't need it in the first place.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by The+Bungi · 2004-08-17 09:18 · Score: 1

Thanks, but that doesn't help me because it doesn't work with all icons (like Tiny Personal Firewall), behaves inconsistently and is more pain than not. Besides, I also run OLK on Windows 2000, which doesn't have this XP feature.
Outlook should have a way to disable the stupid icon.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by xsupergr0verx · 2004-08-17 09:19 · Score: 1

Maybe I'm insane, but I just went into the preferences of quicktime and disabled the quicktime agent.

That did the trick for me. Realplayer make my brain crazy, so I downloaded RealAlternative.

--

Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
Re:It's not just the shady companies by drinkypoo · 2004-08-17 09:28 · Score: 1

Don't mind me, I'm just feeling obstinate over something that happened somewhere else :)

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Schmucky+The+Cat · 2004-08-17 09:29 · Score: 4, Informative

There are several good suggestions here on how to disable recurring apps. Here are mine.
Set NTFS rights to the file to DENY for yourself or some subgroup. Deny rights take precedence.
For executables, setup a software restriction policy, (start, run, secpol.msc) that disables based on the path. Just enter the exe name or it has a nice handy browse button, but the path also accepts wildcards and environment variables. (Don't tell your netword administrator this, but putting %logonserver% in here prevents those annoying domain logon scripts.)
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Aadain2001 · 2004-08-17 09:30 · Score: 1

But all background processes eat up memory, which is what the parent (grandparent?) was complaining about have no control over. Being upfront about needing to be a background process is a step in the right direction to let the users feel they have a choice in the matter and some sort of control over THEIR machines.

--
Space for rent, inquire within
Re:It's not just the shady companies by NeoSkandranon · 2004-08-17 09:31 · Score: 1

No and No.

the only reason it's on my computer at all is because iTunes requires it, so the stand alone player never gets run

--
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Re:It's not just the shady companies by starflt · 2004-08-17 09:33 · Score: 1

Amen.
The trick with qttask.exe is that you've got to rename the executable. qttask.exe.bak or the like.
Even with Sysinternals' ProceXP, Spybot, Ad-Aware, BHODaemon, Hijackthis, ect, I can't find the damn thing's entry point.
As far as Real goes, I'd recommend Real Alternative instead.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by stratjakt · 2004-08-17 09:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

Thats fine for a service thats started/stopped like all other services in the services panel.

The parent poster (and me too) are sick of every application in the world thinking it needs to stick another icon in my task bar. Another point of failure to bring down my entire desktop.

If you're starting your process in my task bar, it starts when I log in, and has my priveliges, nothing to do with Administrative stuff.. That would be a service, not a task bar "helper app".

Right now I've got them down there for Quicktime (what the hell do I need that for? What could I possibly need it for? Apple just wants some free advertising space on my screen), the HotSync software for my smartphone is there too. Again, why? Don't need it, just need a service in the background. ATI stuck one there just in case I needed another way to switch desktop resolutions or color depths. I dont.

The only useful ones in my task bar are the volume one (actually, not so useful since my keyboard has volume controls..) and the Cisco VPN one that tells me that I'm currently not connected.

WinZip puts one there, hell everything puts one there. And they don't belong there. The only reason people jam an icon there is the "advertising" value. WinZip wants everybody who sees my screen to know I have WinZip.

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Re:It's not just the shady companies by cyberformer · 2004-08-17 09:40 · Score: 1

Is there a major Windows program that doesn't try to run at startup? Even OpenOffice has its own system tray icon installed by default.

At least OpenOffice's is easy to disable, unlike Real and QuickTime.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by malthusan · 2004-08-17 09:45 · Score: 2, Informative

Disabling the systray icon doesn't disable qttask.exe.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Joecuba · 2004-08-17 09:48 · Score: 0

Get the K-Lite codec pack and stop using Quicktime AND RealPlayer.

I hate all these stupid 'players' on my machine. Gimme ONE that does it all properly and without pop-up-ware.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by FriedTurkey · 2004-08-17 09:59 · Score: 1

Is it wrong to fix a problem with an executable running at startup with an executable running at startup? :-)
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:13 · Score: 1, Informative

As far as real goes it just depends on what version you are using.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by afidel · 2004-08-17 10:21 · Score: 1

Just erase the value and deny your user the ability to write to the key.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by afidel · 2004-08-17 10:24 · Score: 1

If you want to automate Spybot just enter this as an entry under schedule tasks: "C:\Program Files\Spybot - Search & Destroy\SpybotSD.exe" /AUTOCHECK /AUTOFIX /AUTOUPDATE /AUTOIMMUNIZE /AUTOCLOSE This will keep spybot up to date and running automatically on whatever schedule you define for the job.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by E-Rock · 2004-08-17 10:42 · Score: 2, Informative

You've turned off the icon, not the task. Also, if you delete it from the registry the little bastard puts itself back any time a quicktime is played.

I'm tempted to just remove all the permissions on the run key so nothing can put itself there.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by sootman · 2004-08-17 10:44 · Score: 2, Informative

Quicktime is even easier than another poster described--(right-?)click on the tray icon, properties (or whatever), and uncheck 'quicktime system tray icon' in the 'browser plug-ins' settings page (which, IIRC, is the first to come up.) Or go start menu - control panels - quicktime. its in the options. no need to delete files, etc. of course, I'm sure it comes back after each update, but it's not too horrid. I agree that any intrusion is too much, but still, compared to others', it's no too bad.

I hate real's with a passion, not only because it's hidden, but because once you find it, you still have to wade through a couple confusing "aren't you not sure you don't want to not have this not launch at startup?" confirmation screens.

--
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by ChoGGi · 2004-08-17 10:52 · Score: 1

try in control panel>quicktime>browser plugin
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Chanc_Gorkon · 2004-08-17 10:54 · Score: 1

You know this may be a valid thing. Apple, ATI et al all think that they will get exposure because of my measly screen shots...yeah I believe that.

I know some apps, like Quicktime, think they are making the launch of quicktime movies faster by having the app there when it's really not. If Quicktime and the other 20 applications that want to put themselves in the tray actually were not there, then the movies would run very fast! :D Only usefuly tray apps for me are:

IM Programs (let's me know my status)

The Volume control is till use ful as it's quicker to click there then to go through the start menu to adjust other devices like your microphone.

The VPN icon
My mail program in the tray tells me when I have mail and is useful.

That's about it. 90 percent of tray apps can be deactivated easily....right click on most of them and choose the one that makes it go away. If it's not there, then check the preferences menu.

--
Gorkman
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:09 · Score: 3, Informative

The RealPlayer agent keeps running even when the option is disabled. You need to remove it from the register, by hand.

QT agent runs when Windows boots, but shuts down quickly if the option is disabled.

Only WinAmp actually disables the agent from starting at all -- well done Winamp!
Re:It's not just the shady companies by jcr · 2004-08-17 11:11 · Score: 2, Informative

Uninstalling Quicktime on an MS-Windows machine is pretty straightforward.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:It's not just the shady companies by rnelsonee · 2004-08-17 11:53 · Score: 2, Informative

Hehe. Starup Monitor is a TSR that loads up on startup itself! It does look pretty darn useful though. At the moment, I'm using Startup Mechanic. Same deal, but it doesn't run as a process, it's a standalone program that you run once in a while when you suspect something weird going on. Good for those who want to run as little processes as possible.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by BillX · 2004-08-17 11:58 · Score: 1

Or, they could install this thing, called a driver...

--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by gewalker · 2004-08-17 12:47 · Score: 1

Windows iteself -- It prefers to crash at startup.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by jp10558 · 2004-08-17 13:24 · Score: 1

So, wait - you can do most(all?) of Tiny Personal Firewall's sandbox features with some windows feature? Is this easier or harder than using TPF?

--
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Lehk228 · 2004-08-17 14:15 · Score: 1

you forgot antivirus status indicator.

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Lehk228 · 2004-08-17 14:19 · Score: 1

because having a driver bug bring your windows kernel down is oh so much better than having a tray icon you don't like.

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by EtherMonkey · 2004-08-17 16:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Besides spyware, what annoys me is "user agents". Quicktime, RealPlayer, and Winamp all have little TSR's that load at start-up and eat megabytes of memory for "quality assurance" and "ease of use" purposes. I don't know how many times I've tried to disable qttask.exe or realsched.exe in my start up only to have it come back unexpectedly.
Then why not use Quicktime Alternative and Real Alternative instead? They work fine for me, and don't include any spyware or other negative features that I can detect.

--
--- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Serpentine · 2004-08-17 19:32 · Score: 1

Also, WinPatrol with Scotty the Windows Watch Dog. Woof!

--
.:the truth is a lie undiscovered:.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by gad_zuki! · 2004-08-17 19:35 · Score: 1

>Hardly "digging".

Maybe not for you, but most people have no idea they can or should rename execuatables or screw around with the startup settings because Apple removed the GUI component just so these people CANT remove their little "helper."

Also, different versions of Real have different levels of end user hostility.

These are simply bad policies and for most users these things will run in the tray as little adverts/branding for as long as they own their computer.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Motherfucking+Shit · 2004-08-17 19:40 · Score: 2, Informative

Set NTFS rights to the file to DENY for yourself or some subgroup. Deny rights take precedence.
Here's a complementary tip which will work on FAT32, all versions of Windows, and most other operating systems. If an application keeps creating a file or directory you don't want it to, delete the offending file or directory, create a new one with the same name, and set its read-only attribute. On most unices, chmod 000 will do just fine; on Windows just right-click and get the properties; on a Mac (including OS X) do Get Info and tick the "Locked" checkbox.

Bonus points to anyone who reads this and thinks "thaumaturgy.log" ... :)

My favorite use for this is AOL Instant Messenger. While I love the app, it has an insatiable desire to create a directory named "filelib" within the HKCU's "My Documents," even if you never use the program's file transfer capabilities. "filelib" gets further populated with subdirectories named after each screen name you use. To fix this: exit AIM, delete the "filelib" directory, create a file named "filelib" inside of "My Documents," and set it to read-only. AIM will no longer create its unneeded tree there.

The same trick works to permanently prevent Windows ME from writing its subdirectories into C:\_RESTORE. Those who are familiar with this lovely feature, and who share the frustration that disabling it doesn't really disable it, may find this advice useful. I don't recall the subdirectory names, fortunately it's been awhile since I've had to deal with WinME.

My Documents\Application Data is another location where this comes in handy. Some versions of Windows Media Player write out a datafile on exit which contains MRU file lists among other things. I believe that some Adobe products used to write their MRUs to data files in AppData also, none installed so I can't double check.

Of course there are times when this trick won't work, several spyware apps tend to infest a system so deeply such that a) if you delete a component, another running component notices and immediately writes out a new copy; or b) some or all components run in a manner where attempting to delete them gives an error that the file is in use by the system. Safe mode, Ad-Aware, Spybot, and HijackThis - sometimes a combination of all of the above - will take care of these cretin.

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by pdh11 · 2004-08-17 21:38 · Score: 1

Or, they could install this thing, called a driver...

Not if the device is USB mass-storage class, like some of our recent products. In that case Windows' own mass-storage class driver owns the endpoints and all we can do is send custom USB commands through the existing driver -- which is what requires admin privileges. Before we started doing mass-storage class players, we did indeed have our own driver and could run entirely unprivileged.

Peter
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 23:02 · Score: 0

Peter, in this caase it is NOT a USB Mass-storage device. So stop plugging it as such.
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Yer+Mom · 2004-08-17 23:54 · Score: 1

They don't usually check the contents of the key, though - so I just stick "rem " at the start. Job done.

--
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Yer+Mom · 2004-08-17 23:58 · Score: 1

If you click on the link in the parent post, the help page lets you leave feedback if you click "no" at the bottom. Maybe MS will do something if enough people drop hints there.
(Excuse me. I think a monkey just flew out of my butt.)

--
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
Re:It's not just the shady companies by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-18 09:58 · Score: 0

Looks like you screw3d teh po0ch, Octos. How about an apology?
Re:It's not just the shady companies by julesh · 2004-08-23 22:39 · Score: 1

HotSync's icon is useful -- it allows you to start a sync from the desktop.

The other useful one I have on my system is for my spam filter -- double click it to start downloading my email. Right click on it to train it.

Re:On an unrelated note... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I always thought it would be cool to have a video game based on the 9 stages of hell. If youve actually read his work, you might see how it would be cool to have some of the creatures and various things in each circle in hell in a video game :)

and we can call it...DOOM 3!

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2004-08-17 08:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Helpful tools by zokum · 2004-08-17 08:43 · Score: 5, Informative

We all know spyware is a fucking waste of both resources and internet bandwidth, please do everyone a favour and install either Ad Aware from http://www.lavasoft.de/ or Spybot Search & Destroy from http://www.spybot.info/.

If you happen to run an OS where these aren't supported (everything but win*) just ignore this post :-).

--
Rest in peace Malin "looxn" Kristiansen. We miss you...

Re:Helpful tools by zokum · 2004-08-17 08:46 · Score: 1

Oops, I forgot what I was actually gonna post about while checking the urls. What I want to know is if there are any other good free tools for win* OSes? Something open source would be cool :-)

--
Rest in peace Malin "looxn" Kristiansen. We miss you...
Re:Helpful tools by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2004-08-17 08:47 · Score: 2, Funny

We all know spyware is a fucking waste of both resources and internet bandwidth

You just made my Bonzibuddy all cross now, you horrible thing...

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Re:Helpful tools by southpolesammy · 2004-08-17 09:03 · Score: 1

install Ad Aware or Spybot Search & Destroy

This should not be an or but an and.

--
Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
Re:Helpful tools by aardwolf204 · 2004-08-17 09:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

The guy upstairs from me asked me for computer advice, he was looking to get a new machine for college. He claimed that he wasnt very good with computers and just needed it for research / email / writing papers. I suggested a mac.

I have never owned a mac in my life, I have only worked on them from time to time at school, and I'm probably not going to ever own a mac unless i really start making the big bucks and can afford a disposable system, and even then i could probably only justify it for its graphics and video capabilities.

I suggested that he get a mac because I didnt want to be the guy he called when his PC got the latest crapware. I told him that from what ive read (/.) macs are great for people that want simple computers that just work. he got a ipowermacbookintosh. This morning before I left for work he thanked me and said how wonderful it was. I got in around 9 only to find 3 emails from staff infected with the latest purplemonkeytoolbarweathertellingcrap.

Moral for the story: as a geek I can keep my windows box clean, and even not being a mac fan boy i can say that apple is right on when they say "computers for the rest of us".

PS: When macs get 90% market share I'll suggest he gets windows because nobody writes crapware for it. Oh, yeah, this is slash, um, 2005 is going to be the year of linux on the desktop.

--Aard

--
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the /.crowd.May ur days b merry & bright & may al
Re:Helpful tools by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:19 · Score: 1, Informative

http://www.spychecker.com/program/hijackthis.html
Re:Helpful tools by xsupergr0verx · 2004-08-17 09:21 · Score: 1

He may be called Bonzi, but he is not your buddy.

--

Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
Re:Helpful tools by 2TecTom · 2004-08-17 09:24 · Score: 1

My recommendation. Install both AdAware and Spybot, then install HiJack This:
http://www.spywareinfo.com/~merijn/downloads.html
Problem solved.

--
Words to men, as air to birds.
Re:Helpful tools by CSG_SurferDude · 2004-08-17 09:25 · Score: 4, Funny

I don't mind Bonzibuddy so much, but we keep getting these funky storage cabinets from someplace called www.martianbuddy.com.
And what's worse is all the SPAM we keep getting from them too...
How on Mars are we supposed to finish our teleporation chambers if all our email is filled with SPAM from those guys?

--
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Re:Helpful tools by NeoSkandranon · 2004-08-17 09:26 · Score: 1

AND spysweeper as well (even though it is not freeware)

Ad aware, spybot and spysweeper all have different checklists and one may find things the others dont'

--
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Re:Helpful tools by Phred+T.+Magnificent · 2004-08-17 09:29 · Score: 1

please do everyone a favour and install either Ad Aware from http://www.lavasoft.de/ or Spybot Search & Destroy from http://www.spybot.info/.

s/either/BOTH/g;
s/or/AND/g;
Otherwise, your comment is right on the mark.

--
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
Re:Helpful tools by Dr+Caleb · 2004-08-17 09:37 · Score: 1

But their promotional cabinets are so great! I just had one delivered to my office in the communications facility!

--
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Re:Helpful tools by cyroth · 2004-08-17 09:55 · Score: 1

Why not both? I have seen some things that Adware cannot remove but Spybot can, and vice versa. Another one to get is HijackThis http://www.spychecker.com/program/hijackthis.html/
Re:Helpful tools by red+floyd · 2004-08-17 10:02 · Score: 1

And HijackThis! And CWSShredder

--
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
Re:Helpful tools by jonfelder · 2004-08-17 10:39 · Score: 1

What the hell are we supposed to do with all these chainsaws? I can't imagine anything more useless than a chainsaw on Mars.
Re:Helpful tools by Cowclops · 2004-08-17 11:09 · Score: 1

Well, at least now we can use all the chainsaw gas. (Zak McKracken)
Re:Helpful tools by desmogod · 2004-08-17 11:24 · Score: 0

Hey fucker, trying to make me install this spyware on my PC?
Re:Helpful tools by Vacuous · 2004-08-17 11:46 · Score: 1

I personally love them, Mine came with a BFG-9000.
Re:Helpful tools by pipingguy · 2004-08-17 12:21 · Score: 1

I've always wondered why Ad Aware is updated many times per month while Spybot seems to be updated much less frequently.
Re:Helpful tools by EtherMonkey · 2004-08-17 17:08 · Score: 1

install Ad Aware or Spybot Search & Destroy
This should not be an or but an and.

The real question should be "Why doesn't the antivirus software I've spent hundreds of dollars on for subscriptions and updates detect and prevent these malicious programs?" Could it be that after all these years of blackmailing users for the protection that ought to be built-in to the operating system, these companies aren't willing or able to adapt to the latest permutation of threats: the browser virus?
The newer versions of Symantec Antivirus, NAI VirusScan and others have started, but they are far behind Lavasoft and Kolla in this area when they should be the leaders. After paying $60 per PC and another $20+ per year for antivirus and updates, I don't think I should need to download, install and additional programs to detect and remove browser viruses after they've infected my PC!

--
--- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
Re:Helpful tools by jred · 2004-08-17 18:21 · Score: 1

I've thought about this. I think it's because Ad Aware has a "full" version they sell. Ad Aware also restricts it's "lite" version to home use only, companies are supposed to pay for it. Revenue = the need to update, so you get what you paid for. I know I stopped using it for a while, because they were holding back the def. updates for x amount of time on the free version.

S&D has always given me the impression that it's some dude in his basement, being way cool (from my perspective) and giving away his great little utility (for personal AND business use, if I'm not mistaken) and just asking for donations/tips.

I think we all know which of these scenarios is going to result in the most amount of cash, which provides incentive to update.

Plus, I've got this gut feeling that the S&D guy is getting sick & tired of it. (opinion pulled wholly out of my ass, I have no clue.)

--

jred
I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
Re:Helpful tools by jo42 · 2004-08-18 03:50 · Score: 1

Alas, neither product by itself, or both together, clean out everything... :(

But the important question remains... by GillBates0 · 2004-08-17 08:44 · Score: 3, Funny

is it Spyware or spyware?

--
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam

Re:But the important question remains... by Rude+Turnip · 2004-08-17 08:50 · Score: 1

It will be herein referenced as "spyware" in future issues of Wired.

--
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Re:But the important question remains... by VAXGeek · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 3, Funny

Don't you mean "wired"?

--
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Re:But the important question remains... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:57 · Score: 0

This goes back to making Internet lowercase debate.

Either way Spyware is too nasty a word.

It's online profiling for the purpose of direct marketing. ;)
Re:But the important question remains... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:17 · Score: 0

It depends if it's on the Internet or the internet...
Re:But the important question remains... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-18 00:55 · Score: 0

No no no no! Thats not it! its spyware...
The real thing is the one with the italics... please get your facts right!

Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2004-08-17 08:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

what spywares? what spyware removal software? what worms? what "20 minutes is the average amount of time for your computer to get infected to death"?

I use Linux exclusively and I can relate less and less with what Slashdot talks about these days. Which is ironic if you think about it...

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

Re:Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 0

Jesus, someone tells me how this is flamebait now...

MOD PARENT UP. Enough of these Winders post on Slashdot. It's supposed to be about cool tech and "things that matter" to geeks. The Windows virus du jour and spyware removal howtos are getting tiring here already.
Re:Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Carnildo · 2004-08-17 08:53 · Score: 1

Recently, someone was talking about "popup ads", and it took me a moment to remember what they were talking about.

--
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Re:Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 0

MOD PARENT DOWN! He used the Lord's name in vein!
Re:Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 0

and on the other hand, I'm sick of the Lunix posts on Slashdot that claim all sorts of technical superiority while ignoring operating systems like BSD which have proven better speed, stability, and security over Lunix. It's supposed to be about cool tech and "things that matter" to geeks.
Re:Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Homology · 2004-08-17 09:06 · Score: 0, Offtopic

what spywares? what spyware removal software? what worms? what "20 minutes is the average amount of time for your computer to get infected to death"?
I use Linux exclusively and I can relate less and less with what Slashdot talks about these days. Which is ironic if you think about it...

Quite ironic indeed. Along Slashdotters with screaming for the latest binary only 3D driver from NVIDIA, and the latest binary only Flash, or some binary only wireless driver. So when the company deign to release something binary only, that might or might work with a particularly kernel, they are hailed as champions of Open Source. Truth is, those companies don't even release documentation at all, so writing a free driver is quite difficult. Oh yeah, I forgot : Now we can even use binary only drivers written for Microsoft Windows on FreeBSD. What a progress!
Re:Sorry for repeating the blindingly obvious, but by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:05 · Score: 0

MOD PARENT DOWN! He used the Lord's name in vein!

Oh man, I can't tell if this is meant to be a joke or not. What do you mean he used the Lord's name in vein (sic), anyway?

You mean he has little letters (like Alphabet Soup) in his blood spelling out 'J E S U S'?

Kill their Revenue Stream by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:48 · Score: 5, Interesting

Seriously, as more places try to "legitimize" their revenue by branching out what they do, it'll take longer for most companies to sit back and say "we can't do this because of your questionable business model."

Yahoo took long enough, but they finally did.

What users need to do is continue to keep writing in and boycotting companies that use spyware affiliated services until they stop supporting them. Overture be damned, it's still ultimately a spyware thing. After all, it's just another way to collect information and track users. When Doubleclick decided to combine all the information... I'm sure you Slashdotters remember the response it got. Privacy is a big issue and until more companies in the playing field like Yahoo get the idea... it's going to continue being a problem.

Spyware is certainly more aggressive at this point, but ever since I installed Adaware and started using more of the extensions available for Mozilla/FireFox, it hasn't been something I've even remotely come across... unless I'm helping to clean up a friend or client's oversaturated box. I'm just wondering at this point why some of these spyware apps haven't been classified as viruses yet... they certainly act in a very similar manner: Installing without knowledge, announcement or permission... phoning home without knowledge, announcement or permission. Spreading without... ah, fook it, you get the idea. I'm just preaching to the chior here. A lot more questions than answers despite knowing exactly what is going on here. This is exactly why we shouldn't be supporting services that are running legitimately despite having that slight (or underhanded) spyware connection.

Re:Kill their Revenue Stream by kawika · 2004-08-17 09:43 · Score: 1

Seriously, as more places try to "legitimize" their revenue by branching out what they do, it'll take longer for most companies to sit back and say "we can't do this because of your questionable business model." Yahoo took long enough, but they finally did.
Sorry, but I missed the press release where Yahoo/Overture said they would no longer provide 31% of Claria/Gator's revenue. Can you post a URL for that? Sure they have it so their toolbar finds Claria by default but that's not much of a consolation prize when they're paying over $30 million a year to the scum.
Re:Kill their Revenue Stream by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 14:16 · Score: 0

After all, it's just another way to collect information and track users. [...] Privacy is a big issue and until more companies in the playing field like Yahoo...
I don't want to sound like a smartass, but...isn't that Yahoo's main line of business? Collecting information about their users?
A lot of Yahoo's functionality (their webcam service, and some Yahoo Groups) is simply not available to anonymous users. You need to register with Yahoo to use these services. At a bare minimum, you have to turn on cookies in your browser.
Remember Total Information Awareness? I think it's already here, and it has no shortage of people willing to volunteer to be a part of it.

Makes Open Source More Attractive by TT+Baker · 2004-08-17 08:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

Of course, this implanting of spyware only works if you give away binary versions of your product. Open source that you compile yourself would not last long in the community if it tried to imbed spyware code. Never trust a free executable. That has been true since I got my first Amiga virus from "cracked" copy protected code, and it is true now.

Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by romper · 2004-08-17 09:00 · Score: 1

Exactly right! Which is why I've been drilling into my 100+ users as many Win32 open-source alternatives that I can find. Everything from using 7-Zip to replace WinZip to using Firefox to replace IE.
Of course I'd fall over dead from shock if they all listened. But I do have more than a few converts, which is a small victory I'll take!

--
Right is wrong when left is right.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:06 · Score: 1, Informative

OK I'm a bit confused. How does just compiling yourself protect against spyware? It seems to me that, to be 100% sure, you must audit the source code line by line.

Perhaps you're thinking of the argument that since it's open source then others will spot any anomalies in the code. But you could still be compiling and running the app with the spyware before anyone finds it.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by stratjakt · 2004-08-17 09:07 · Score: 1

What you say is surely true for bigger OSS projects with lots of involvement. It'd be hard to slip a backdoor into the linux kernel without someone noticing, or Samba or Apache.

But what about the thousands upon millions of little OSS apps? Ones that may have less end users than you can count on one hand? It could be something as simple as some guys script for traffic control. Or he says it's an awesome script for traffic control. How many newbies would recognize a line like "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda1" jammed in there? Especially if they have no clue what dd or /dev/hda1 is?

In those cases, that source isn't any safer than any binary, unless you assume that I'm going to audit all that code myself.

Let's imagine linux had a large base of clueless users (IMO it does but that's another discussion). You could easily set up a really cool sounding sourceforge project, and just write some malware in the code.

At least trojanned binaries can be picked up by a virus scanner. What takes on this role in the sourcecode driven world? There's no "source code" virus scanners, and you cant reliably identify based on the executables..

Hell, when I do "emerge -u samba" in Gentoo, I pretty much trust that whatever gentoo mirror I'm leeching from has untainted good code. No different than if I downloaded some windows app off of TUCOWS.. I'm trusting the source.

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by stratjakt · 2004-08-17 09:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

And these windows users downloaded the source for 7-zip and firefox and compiled them themselves?

If they didn't, what makes these precompiled exe's any more trustworthy than the originals?

Anonymous OSS coders are more trustworthy than WinZip Computing or Microsoft?

Why is firefox.exe any "safer" than iexplore.exe from a "someone might have compiled in some bad shit" point of view?

Frankly, common sense would have me lean the other way. At least if WinZip or MSFT compiled in malware, I'd have someone to hold accountable (by which I mean sue/boycott/call and hangup on).

--
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Misao · 2004-08-17 09:17 · Score: 1

I'll throw in the usual note here, since no-one else seems to have:

http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/

Community audited source code may be 'safer', sure, but that's not to say you can really trust it, either.

-mis
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by romper · 2004-08-17 09:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Fair point, but if an OSS application with a large user base had spyware/malware in it, we'd hear about it on Slasdot and the project would fork.

I guess I should have said I recommend OSS software that I *trust*. So, yes, we're offtopic -- but it's a nice idea. :)

--
Right is wrong when left is right.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Sloppy · 2004-08-17 10:54 · Score: 1
The issue isn't about binary-vs-source. It's not about whether you compile it yourself.
It's about whose interest the software tries to serve. And when it comes to that, Free Software is highly desirable, because it always tries to serve the user, above all other considerations.
Imagine a Free Software package that served the interests of someone other than the user. Maybe it's
- a web browser that sends history to a marketing company
- a DVD player that turns off the fast-forward feature while an advertisement plays
- a cd-burner that counts how many times you used a playlist and then stopped working unless you rebuilt the list
- a mail-encrypter that sends a second copy of a session key (encrypted with the government's public key) along with each message
What would happen? It would get forked, that's what would happen! Can you imagine Debian distributing spyware? It would be ludicrous. The only way it could happen would be through a mistake or oversight or breakin -- it would never happen as a matter of policy. It couldn't.
With proprietary software, the situation changes. If the software serves an interest other than the users' the users don't have forking as their recourse. Take-it-or-leave-it is the only choice they have to make; forking isn't an option.
--
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:59 · Score: 1

but if an OSS application with a large user base had spyware/malware in it, we'd hear about it on Slasdot

You'd hear about spyware/malware with large user base whether it's OSS or not.

Look, it's quite simple: the advantage of open source is that you can audit the source yourself. You can rely on others to find security holes, viruses, bugs, more quickly on OSS. But for malware, sheesh, any half-brained geek can spot it with or without the source code.

Stop spreading useless FUD about non-OSS apps! You're just making things harder for chrissake!
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by djmurdoch · 2004-08-17 11:13 · Score: 1

You need to trust the person who compiled it, not just the person who wrote it. So be sure that the mirror you download from really mirrors the original, and isn't serving up recompiled binaries with spyware added.

It would be nice if the GPL allowed authors to forbid anyone else from distributing binaries (so that if you get a binary, you know who it came from), but apparently it doesn't.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by maximilln · 2004-08-17 12:48 · Score: 1

Never trust a free executable.

This brought a memory to mind. The fellow that taught me about using computers (when I was 8) vehemently insisted that I not get software from anyone but him. He told me that if there was something that I wanted he could get it. He said that if anything went wrong with the hardware he would not help me fix anything if I got software from anyone else. My parents pounded that home that if anything ever went wrong with the computer that he couldn't fix I wouldn't be happy for a long time. Even though there were several other kids in my class who had the same computer I didn't trade my first game with them until I probably was close to 11. I borrowed a game from the first fellow and tried to copy it with a bit-nibbler that I had gotten from a classmate. I wanted the bit-nibbler because it was newer, faster, and made the same claims as the older slower copier (which also was, technically, a bit-nibbler but who's checking at 11?). I took the game back to the first fellow and said,"It wouldn't copy."

"What did you use to try copying it?"

"Uhhh... QCopy."

"Did you try anything else?"

"QCopy-3."

"I told you to use 2. Did you try QCopy-2?"

"Even Mr. Nibble wouldn't copy it!"

"Mr. Nibble? Where did you get that? I have one copy here that I don't give to anyone."

"A friend at school."

"Of course it didn't copy. You tried Mr. Nibble. Go home and use QCopy-2."

"But it takes forever and Mr. Nibble copies everything else."

At this point he gave me a look which said,"Yeah, I know you've been using it for 6 months but you haven't bothered to say anything."

"That's why QCopy-2 works and Mr. Nibble doesn't. QCopy-2 knows what it's doing."

Well... anyways. I don't trust any accessory programs to be secure. They're just more holes in the swiss cheese.

--
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by jesser · 2004-08-17 12:52 · Score: 1

And when it comes to that, Free Software is highly desirable, because it always tries to serve the user, above all other considerations.

Some examples where that is not true:

Mozilla does not display the alt attribute of an image as a tooltip when there is no title attribute. This serves blind users of all web browsers by encouraging web authors to use the alt and title attributes correctly, but it annoys some Mozilla users.

Mozilla does not pre-fetch every link on pages visit. While this would benefit users (at least those who don't pay for bandwidth), it would have a negative impact on web sites.

Mozilla supports autocomplete="off" (disables password manager for a specific form) and Cache-control: no-store (disables cache for a specific page), primarily due to blackmail from banks that would block Mozilla otherwise.

Firefox's Help menu contains "Tell a Friend" and "Promote Firefox" menu items. These support the Mozilla Foundation's marketing goals; they are not there to benefit users.

Firefox will not import your home page from Internet Explorer.

--
The shareholder is always right.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by jesser · 2004-08-17 13:00 · Score: 1

It seems to me that, to be 100% sure, you must audit the source code line by line.

Given how long it takes most security holes in popular open source software to be found, I think we can safely say that nobody competent enough to audit the source of software they use does so.

--
The shareholder is always right.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by DaCool42 · 2004-08-17 13:09 · Score: 1

Hell, when I do "emerge -u samba" in Gentoo, I pretty much trust that whatever gentoo mirror I'm leeching from has untainted good code.

No, you are trusting that the digest files that you got from the rsync server are good. Also, I believe the Portage developers are working on adding GPG signing.

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All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Lehk228 · 2004-08-17 14:48 · Score: 1

it wouldn't be hard to add a safety mode where the compiler scans for anything that would potentially damage existing components of the system before compiling.

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Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 18:14 · Score: 0

That only works if everyone is capable of reading AND UNDERSTANDING the entire codebase of everything on their machines AND willing to indeed examine every single line of code in every program before installing it.

That's never going to happen, as you may be able to imagine (though I doubt many people here have the mental capacity for it).

Not only are programs being written in hundreds of programming languages (who knows them all well enough to be able to fully comprehend every tiny detail of them all?), but the process of going through those tens of thousands of lines of code in a large application would simply take too long.

Unemployed /. kiddies may have the time, but most people don't.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 18:17 · Score: 0

Or far more likely someone thought it would be a neat idea to include some spyware to make himself rich knowing he could get away with it since 99% of users won't audit the source anyway and the other 1% either don't understand what they see or are too full of themselves to change the general codebase if they find it.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by NuclearDog · 2004-08-17 21:34 · Score: 0

I believe not serving the user would be an exception, rather than a rule.

Sure, they might not prefetch pages, but if they did don't you think a lot of websites might start to simply block Mozilla, because it sucks up all their bandwidth?

What are you talking about it will not display the alt attribute without a title attribute? I assume that would be part of the rendering engine and this bug would be shared with Firefox? This doesn't occur in Firefox.

Also, I don't know where you got your browser, but my copy of Firefox's help menu has "Release Notes" and "About Mozilla Firefox".

ND

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This statement is forty-five characters long.
Re:Makes Open Source More Attractive by jesser · 2004-08-18 04:00 · Score: 1

I believe not serving the user would be an exception, rather than a rule.

Sure. But that's true of commercial software as well.

Sure, they might not prefetch pages, but if they did don't you think a lot of websites might start to simply block Mozilla, because it sucks up all their bandwidth?

Yes, I think that would happen.

What are you talking about it will not display the alt attribute without a title attribute? I assume that would be part of the rendering engine and this bug would be shared with Firefox? This doesn't occur in Firefox.

Go to www.alltheweb.com and hover over the logo. You'll get a tooltip in IE but not in Firefox, because the text is in an alt attribute. On alltheweb.com, it makes sense for there not to be a tooltip, but there are some sites that have crucial information in tooltips and incorrectly use the alt attribute instead of the title attribute to create the tooltip. The alt attribute is meant to replace the image when it is not shown (e.g. for blind users, lynx users, and users who have disabled images). Alternate text tends to make poor tooltip text and vice versa. Read bugs 25537,74241,41924 (or just Hixie's comments in those insanely long bugs) if you're interested.

Also, I don't know where you got your browser, but my copy of Firefox's help menu has "Release Notes" and "About Mozilla Firefox".

I'm using a branch nightly build and I see those items. I expect them to be there in Firefox 1.0 Preview Release.

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The shareholder is always right.

Prepare for slashdotting and death threats... by wikdwarlock · 2004-08-17 08:49 · Score: 4, Funny

For God's sake, man, don't answer! Can you imagine the wrath of /. once they find you?

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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

Slashdot mentioned in mainstream media!! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:50 · Score: 1, Funny

Dangerous practice, one would think... turning the whole Slashdot community on her own editorial.

But wait -- if she mentioned the Slashdot crowd, she must know who we are. Heck, she may even be one of us. In which case, she knows we never read the RTFA.

Hmmm, smart lady -- must be one of us. Or wait. Maybe not... :P

Quicktime is spyware! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 08:50 · Score: 0, Insightful

How many fucking times are you going to put qttask.exe into my startup after I delete it. Heck, just visiting some sites and you end up with a qttask in your startup without anyone asking for your permission.

The business model is confusing.... by dcigary · 2004-08-17 08:50 · Score: 1, Interesting

I mean, really. Load up a PC so full of Adware and Pop-Ups that it's useless, thereby hindering the advertising that they've been paid to deliver.

Talk about killing the messenger.

A few weeks ago I was very busy at night and couldn't get a chance to clean all the spyware off my wife's PC, which had become useless due to all the popups. Know what happened? The PC got TURNED OFF for a few days, thereby NO ads got delivered. I'd like to see what THAT does to their business model....

--
...my Karma ran over your Dogma...

Re:The business model is confusing.... by frankthechicken · 2004-08-17 08:58 · Score: 1

I agree completely.

Spyware manufacturers should get together and agree upon one open, standard model of software, from which each company can extract and send their own information to their databases.

One server per computer.

One cartel.

Joy for the world.
Re:The business model is confusing.... by cK-Gunslinger · 2004-08-17 09:43 · Score: 1

I think it's akin to the "Neon Sign" model. If you put up a neon sign, your business will be more prominent and might gain more customers. That is, until every business on your block does the same thing and your sign no longer stands out. In fact, the whole area becomes such an eyesore that nobody wants to even look in your general direction. Same things SPAM and Adware.

They're hiring! by BubbaThePirate · 2004-08-17 08:51 · Score: 3, Funny

Quoth the site:
http://www.claria.com/companyinfo/careers/

"Associate General Counsel - Litigation
Redwood City, CA

The successful candidate must have the skills and experience necessary to assist the General Counsel in managing complex litigation involving IP law, advertising, technology, and the Internet. You will execute an agreed-upon strategy by, for example, independently managing discovery efforts, directing depositions, outlining and reviewing briefs and oral arguments, assist in preparing for trials, and generally providing overall guidance to, and closely working with, outside counsel.

Requirements include: Leading law school, member of the California State Bar, and at least 6 years of relevant litigation experience in a nationally recognized law firm and/or an in-house legal department; Demonstrated ability and successful history of managing large scale litigation including large discovery efforts; Demonstrated familiarity working with technology and/or Internet companies and with IP law; Ability to formulate successful, complex pre-litigation and litigation strategy; Ability to operate independently, effectively and in a professional manner in various project and cross-functional team settings, and with various external contacts; Excellent organizational, project management, communication and interpersonal skills."

--

-- "I'm not a religious man, but if you're up there, save me Superman..."

Re:They're hiring! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:10 · Score: 0

Typical American software company: they're always short of litigation staff.
Re:They're hiring! by WombatControl · 2004-08-17 09:10 · Score: 3, Funny

Apparently the left out the part about "must have absolutely no soul or common decency".

Wait, it says "at least 6 years of relevant litigation experience in a nationally recognized law firm and/or an in-house legal department" - I suppose that's essentially saying the same thing.
Re:They're hiring! by Alex+Belits · 2004-08-17 11:07 · Score: 2, Funny

Boies?

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:They're hiring! by BillX · 2004-08-17 12:05 · Score: 1

Haha...shit, I thought you were joking until I clicked on the link.

Translation: Need someone to threaten anti-spyware companies and get us dropped from detecion.

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Caveat Emptor is not a business model.

Does the Internet Need a DoD/police Force? by G4from128k · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 3, Interesting

National governments seem clueless/powerless/apathetic with regard to malware (spyware, phishing, viruses, etc.) The current ad hoc approach - independent semi-commercialized tracking/alert/filtering services don't do a very good job, provide less than 100% coverage (of both PCs and treats), suffer from lack due process (e.g., how does a nonspammer get unblacklisted), and are purely passive (doing nothing to halt spammers, phishers, etc.)

I wonder when the users of the internet will form their own supranational government, with a defense force and coordinated policing actvities. Taxation might be in the form of CPU cycles & bandwidth used by policing actions to DDoS convicted spammers/phishers/spyware providers.

--
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Re:Does the Internet Need a DoD/police Force? by oldguy62 · 2004-08-17 12:12 · Score: 1

Karel rocks (freshman cis100) LOL
Re:Does the Internet Need a DoD/police Force? by NuclearDog · 2004-08-17 21:39 · Score: 0

"Taxation might be in the form of CPU cycles & bandwidth used by policing actions to DDoS convicted spammers/phishers/spyware providers."

"Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do."

Never could a sig fit a message better =)

ND

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This statement is forty-five characters long.

Separating Linux users from Windows users by Thagg · 2004-08-17 08:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

HTML doesn't have a 'rant' tag, but consider the following as such.

I personally cannot imagine having spyware on my machine, and I similarly cannot imagine any Linux user tolerating it. Most Linux users chose it, in large part, because of the control it gives you over everything that your computer does. Having your computer hijacked by advertisers is antithetical to that concept.

But I watch Windows users tolerate truly mindboggling amounts of adware/spamware/malware. The typical windows users tolerate 100 times what I would consider completely unacceptable.

I know it's elitist to say this, but what happens is that Windows users will make the tradeoff of malware to allow them to steal music and other content. They don't protest, because deep down they know what they're doing is wrong.

Linux users, typically, have no such guilt and therefore don't tolerate that kind of intrusion onto their computer.

Thad

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I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.

Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Mitleid · 2004-08-17 09:03 · Score: 0

You're right. Linux users never commit copyright violations. And if they do, God forbid they have to SACRIFICE anything for it. Leave Windows to the immoral, corrupt and unwashed masses. I follow ya...

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Is it me, or did it just get fatter in here?
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Evangelion · 2004-08-17 09:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

I know it's elitist to say this, but what happens is that Windows users will make the tradeoff of malware to allow them to steal music and other content. They don't protest, because deep down they know what they're doing is wrong.

Not really.

Being both a Linux user and a Windows user, I don't tolerate any kind of adware or spyware either.

The typical windows user:

* Does not understand that AdWare/Spyware/Malware is acutally on thier computer
* Does not understand how AdWare/Spyware/Malware gets on thier computer in the first place.
* When they realize it's on thier computer, they will often belive it's nessecary for software to function. (I tried cleaning up my sister-in-laws Win98 PC, and she immediately blamed me for screwing it up the first time something didn't work the same way -- that's the only real anecdote I have, as I stay the bloody hell away from that kind of job).
* Assuming they realize that it's on thier computer, and they realize they don't have to live with it, then they can get rid of it. Once. But being able to get rid of it by getting a friend to install AdAware and Spybot S&D in no way affects thier ability to detect it on thier computer, or realize that something might be installing it.

Comparing Windows to Linux in this regard is just ignorant. There are is basically no Malware/Spyware programs on linux (I know there's some Adware out there, but I can't imagine it being terribly successful). And Linux users as a whole are self-selecting in this regard, and are used to having to live without software that they'd like to use.

That, and there are several pieces of very popular Adware (MSN Messenger for example) that are sufficiently useful to outweigh the cons of it being Adware.

So, really, the windows users who put up with this garbage simply because they don't know any better and trust the companies when they claim this garbage is nessecary, or that they choose to put up with the Adware to use a program that they want to use.

I also find it ironic that you're saying piracy is a tradeoff for running adware, when any person who is going to pirate things won't think anything of cracking adware to get rid of ads...

BTW, if you think Linux users don't pirate media, you're on fucking crack :)
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by rednever · 2004-08-17 09:25 · Score: 1

Change 'Linux' to 'Mac' and you'll have similar sentiment from the other 2%. We don't tolerate exploits in OS X, we don't tolerate Apple sweeping them under the rug, and we sure as Hell won't tolerate spyware.

I'm curious, with all the security risks and malware on Windows, and the low survival time before compromise, are more people looking to use Linux or Mac OS X, or any non-Microsoft OS?

I'm not trying to fan flames here or endorse any kind of zealotry, I'm genuinely curious as to why people put up with this kind of crap from Microsoft. Yes, other OS's have exploits as well, but the ratio of Windows to other OS exploits is hugely diproportionate. Shouldn't Microsoft have greater accountability for this, 95% market share or no?
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by HermanZA · 2004-08-17 09:37 · Score: 1

Actually, I have come to the conclusion that Windows users are people who like to suffer - masochists - the lot of them and Billy is exploiting it. He must have a deeper understanding of human nature than the average Linux Geek, which explains why he is so successful. After all, the Holy Bible - the worst story book ever - is also the most successful book ever. There is a lesson in there somewhere...
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by nkh · 2004-08-17 09:38 · Score: 1

Windows users will make the tradeoff of malware to allow them to steal music

Don't be so jealous about Windows' users, you can download the Bittorrent client written in Python. It's a command line tool that works on Linux too ;)
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by DarthBart · 2004-08-17 09:39 · Score: 1

But I watch Windows users tolerate truly mindboggling amounts of adware/spamware/malware. The typical windows users tolerate 100 times what I would consider completely unacceptable.

Why? Because they don't know any better. They've been trained by Microsoft and their billion dollar marketing budget to accept the fact that their PeeCees are going to crash.

I've converted 4 people in my family to Mac/OSX. They're absolutely amazed at how often it doesn't crash. Sure you occasionally have an application bomb out on you, but never once has the whole system crashed a-la BSOD without some underlying hardware problem.

Its simply a case of them accepting it because thats the way they think things are. Educate them...but not with religious zealotry (LINUX IS BETTER, SO THERE!) but with (Hey, here's this other OS...it does what you need it to do and it doesn't crash and doesn't require a 34873249Thz machine with 309420394GB of ram in it to just boot)
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by daviddennis · 2004-08-17 09:42 · Score: 1

Well, I solve that problem personally by being a Mac user, both at home and at work, and it works great.

But I have a Windows PC next to me at work. Why? Because we were dumb enough to buy a phone system whose client only runs under Windows. So when the client crashes, my phone doesn't ring. Of course i don't notice it because I don't actually use the Windows PC, so the big boss comes storming into the office asking why I don't answer my phone. Yes, that really did happen :-(.

This phone system dependency is also real, and the Linux-based CRM software I developed exports orders into the Windows-based accounting system. So getting rid of Windows would be next to impossible, since our workers talk on the phone using the phone client, and a limited number of them also access our accounting system. The CRM software I wrote is web-based and works anywhere, but there's enough dependency on Windows that it would be virtually impossible to switch, even though I, as the only computer nerd on staff, would strongly recommend it.

People are afraid of change, and as long as that's so, people will keep on using Windows despite the risks. I know because I see it every day. And in the case of ripping out our phone and accounting systems, I can sort of see their point.

Of course when I start my own company, Windows will be banned from the network. Period :-).

Hope that helps.

D
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by saintp · 2004-08-17 09:46 · Score: 1

But I watch Windows users tolerate truly mindboggling amounts of adware/spamware/malware.
My personal record was when I was cleaning off a student's machine with Ad-Aware and uncovered over 1,700 components of spyware and other malware. Now, that's including all of the tracking cookies and registry entries that are installed with that, but the nearest I've ever seen was a computer with 400 components that was totally unusable because all the malware was eating the memory. When I clean off my home Windows machine every month or so, I can expect to find less than a dozen.
I don't know about the part with our deep underlying guilt, though. That seems awfully Freudian. (Read: crap.)

--
Another one bites the dust
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:50 · Score: 0

Contrary to popular belief.. spyware is something users CHOOSE to install. You may find some obscure spyware that installs itself by taking advantage of an ie vulnerability, but those are very very RARE. Infact.. Ive never ran into one on my home machine.

Users CHOOSE to install gator, bonzai buddy, and virtua girl. They dont pay attention when theyre installing programs. This isnt a Microsoft problem.
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Kphrak · 2004-08-17 10:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

I can't believe something a post as stupid as the parent's gets modded up, even for a few minutes.

Windows users don't allow spamware because they're guilty about piracy. Most of the users I've seen with large amounts of spyware wouldn't even download a free MP3; the only thing they download is their email or the latest forum page refresh, off AOL. They get spyware because of cluelessness about computers, not guilt.

The 15-year-olds who install spyware-filled filesharing programs don't feel guilty either; they use them for the same reason they use Internet Explorer. They don't know any better program, and their friends all use the same thing.

On the other hand, the savvy Linux copyright violator (not thief; copyright violation is not theft according to the law) will just use Mutella to share his MP3s, which has no weird restrictions and runs on the command line if so desired.

--

There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by brkello · 2004-08-17 10:16 · Score: 1

Oh give me a break. You make these sweeping statements about what "we" (as in Mac Users) tolerate. It's a load of garbage. You may not tolerate adware along with the grand parent poster, but to make a claim for all users is asinine. The fact of the matter is that Linux and Macs have such a tiny footprint on the market that adware developers don't even care you exist. Another fact is that most people who are less knowledgable about computers run Windows. They are more likely to install whatever they find out there and get adware and not know what to do about it. Macs are such a small percentage that the inexperienced user is relatively safe...for now. Linux users need to be more experienced or it really gets ugly.

So it has nothing to do with what the userbase tolerates, it has to do with where the most profit is for the adware companies and right now that is windows. Does this drive some people to other OS's? Sure...obviously not tons of people, but some. Should MS be accountable for this? Sure, and they address some of this in SP2. But really, why not blame the people who actually make the crappy software that does this? Blame the people who bundle it in with their programs. Blame the users for not paying more attention to what they are doing. I guarantee that any OS that is such a large market force will have these things...I just wish Linux and Macs would gain popularity so I don't have to read posts like this anymore.

Just because you say that you are not trying to "fan flames" or endorse zealotry, doesn't mean you aren't actually doing it. Think a little before you post. Step out of the Slashdot group think and try not to come in to every single MS article with some sort of sense of superiority due to your choice of OS.

--
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by cgreuter · 2004-08-17 10:34 · Score: 1

(I know there's some Adware out there, but I can't imagine it being terribly successful).
*cough* Opera *cough*.
Of course, Opera is a real, useful program and its ads aren't usually intrusive. It's an up-front deal--you get to use commercial software for free in exchange for a small bit of screen real-estate. Most Windows-based Adware is a) deceptive about that sort of deal and b) sucks.
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Spoing · 2004-08-17 14:31 · Score: 1
1. * When they realize it's on thier computer, they will often belive it's nessecary for software to function. (I tried cleaning up my sister-in-laws Win98 PC, and she immediately blamed me for screwing it up the first time something didn't work the same way -- that's the only real anecdote I have, as I stay the bloody hell away from that kind of job).
Same with me...except it was my brother-in-law. He was stunned to hear he had 3 viruses and a few hundread pieces of spyware (6 programs plus tracking information).
Lately, for a few weeks, I've goten spammed by a virus using a return email address that happened to be my brother-in-laws sister. Meanwhile, my father is getting the same types of spam from an account with my name on it. I suspect that it's from my brother-in-laws computer, though they say "it's clean". Grrrr...I'll see when I visit next.
--
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 15:52 · Score: 0

I was searching for a crack on astalavista using firefox, and a site said I had to install a firefox extension before I would be allowed to download. Of course I won't install it, I'd rather do without that put up with that shit. But as OSS and linux gain in popularity I suspect attacks for Mozilla and linux will grow. I think those random ssh exploit attacks that started in late July is another good example.

BTW, Is Spybot still actively maintained? Several people told me they haven't seen an update for it in ages and it is failing to detect many things now. I think my windows instance is spyware clean, but even if it were loaded with keyloggers it wouldn't matter much, I only use it to get mp3s from p2p...
Re:Separating Linux users from Windows users by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-18 00:11 · Score: 0

Yup, I got hit by something similar from serials.ws. It was trying to install something from Wind Updates (I'm sure it's just a COINCIDENCE that the url looks like "windows updates").

The site didn't actually forbid me from getting the serial, but it still annoyed me.

Note that this was on Windows. I've never encountered a Linux instance of it.

My Spyware Experience by BlueOtto · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 5, Informative

As the Intern/Pc Support Help Desk guy at my work, I'd estimate that about half of the problems here are a result of spyware. However, I have a process that works MOST of the time to totally eliminate it it from a computer. It takes time (usually around 30 minutes), but being totally thorough makes sure that one piece doesn't get left behind and bring everything else back. This is what I do:

-Run AdAware and Spybot Search and Destroy (get latest updates!)
-Run CWS Shredder
-Run HiJackThis and locate all curious entries and remove them
-Run msconfig.exe and clear all suspicious or even borderline suspicious entries from startup
-Check running processes for suspicious entries (doing this a lot makes you familiar with what is good and not good. Stuff like WhatsUp.exe -- usually bad. Or WJLHOWPDMNW.exe)
-Try to kill the processes, and then locate and delete those files. If you cannot delete them or end the processes, write them down and boot into safe mode to delete those files
-Finally, check Program Files for suspicious folders. That's where much of spyware hides. Apoint2K and and search bars and anything else are BAD!

Re:My Spyware Experience by Solder+Fumes · 2004-08-17 09:14 · Score: 1

I don't know which program did it, but I recently had to fix a spyware-laden computer. I started off the same way you did, but then I hit the ol' CTRL-ALT-DEL to see what processes were running.

WHOA!!! WHAT HAVE WE HERE?

Some program had actually modified the Task Manager resources so that NO tabs or menu items were visible. All you could see was the main "application" list. That threw me off for a second, but I managed to blindly switch to the process tab via keyboard shortcuts. It would completely stump anyone else who didn't know much about computers, but was trying to follow your directions above.
Re:My Spyware Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:26 · Score: 0

sorry to bust your bubble, but this tab-less task list is what you get when the outer border is double clicked. Just double click it again to get your tabs back.
Re:My Spyware Experience by duncanatlk · 2004-08-17 09:35 · Score: 1

Task Manager is configurable, and this behaviour is normal. If you double click on the empty area to right of the tabs, the tabs, menus, and title will dissapear. Double clicking at the top of the window, above the column headers, will restore Taskbar to it's usual appearance.
I doubt any malware did this.
Re:My Spyware Experience by feronti · 2004-08-17 09:40 · Score: 1

Less labor-intensive method:

1) Put Ghost CD in drive
2) Reboot machine
3) Take nap
4) Take Ghost CD out of drive

Don't have Ghost? Use Knoppix and partimage. There is no reason to waste time cleaning up spyware. None. If it's a corporate machine, all data should be on the corporate file server. If it's a home machine, then all the data should be on a separate partition from the system. In either case, the data should be backed up regularly.
Re:My Spyware Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:55 · Score: 0

I'm sure that you have paid for your non personal use copy of AdAware as stated in the eula.
Pretty soon the anti-adware software you install will install its own adware/spyware to make some $$$$
Re:My Spyware Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:09 · Score: 0

You know, killing suspicous processes sounds good, but half the time WJLHOWPDMNW.exe is the name of sume f'ed up driver. It would be nice if you could see more information about the process... like, oh... say the freaking PATH or something.
Re:My Spyware Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:07 · Score: 0

Very interesting, thanks!
Re:My Spyware Experience by Johnno74 · 2004-08-17 11:57 · Score: 3, Informative

Download process explorer from www.sysinternals.com. It will tell you the full path, command line and TONS of stuff about each process.

It will even tell you what files/registry entries the process has open, and what DLLs it has loaded.

I've often seen spyware in a DLL that is open so can't be deleted. Sometimes they load themselves into explorer.exe.

Open process explorer, search for the DLL and it will tell you the processes that have it open.
Either kill the process, or force close the file handle (often nukes the process, but whatever...)
then delete the dll.
Re:My Spyware Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 13:22 · Score: 0

That is so cool. Thanks for the info.
Re:My Spyware Experience by CrkHead · 2004-08-17 16:14 · Score: 1
Before the cow died I put in about six years in one of their shops and watched spyware grow. I learned how to deal with the problem more quickly.
1. Rename registry run keys (I append a + sign)
2. Newer versions on Windows delete all Browser "Helper" Objects in the registry
3. Create move items in Startup group to a new directory (startold)
4. Comment out RUN= and LOAD= in win.ini
5. Make sure SHELL= in system.ini only lists explorer or progman
Reboot, the nasty ones will repopulate their entries. Eliminate with prejudice.
With the number of times I did this, the process was about 60 seconds + reboot time (a little longer with XP) before going though and deleting the applications.
Regedit is your friend.
Re:My Spyware Experience by compro01 · 2004-08-26 17:56 · Score: 1

a good method for finding programs that don't belong is looking for names that aren't the usual 8.3 name (name.extention). all windows system stuff is 8.3 , as are most programs i have running at anytime. some names are shorter, but anything longer usually sets off the alarms, unless i know exactly what it is.

--
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time

Easy trick by sunilonline · 2004-08-17 08:56 · Score: 1

Go start>run>msconfig.exe, then to the startup tab - you can disable anything you want that is set to start up automatically.

Re:Easy trick by djdavetrouble · 2004-08-17 09:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

he said
Go start>run>msconfig.exe, then to the startup tab - you can disable anything you want that is set to start up automatically.

EXCEPT most spyware and malware

--
music lover since 1969

... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by arhar · 2004-08-17 08:57 · Score: 5, Funny

I think every time Claria is mentioned, it should be mentioned on the same page - hell, in the same sentence that Claria IS Gator, and their company name, names of everyone connected to the company, their significant others, and descendants down to the fifth generation, should be recorded in human history as worthless scum and vilified forever.

Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by romper · 2004-08-17 09:03 · Score: 5, Funny

No wonder the author of TFA said us Slashdotters think authors/supporters of spyware "should be burned at the stake". :)

--
Right is wrong when left is right.
Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by DavidTC · 2004-08-17 09:48 · Score: 2

Burning at the stake's too good for them.

--
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by AndroidCat · 2004-08-17 11:58 · Score: 4, Funny

It's redundant. Besides, impalement is green-friendly.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by zangdesign · 2004-08-17 18:04 · Score: 1

So is drawing and quartering. Plus, the betting pool is better, more diverse.

--
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by archivis · 2004-08-18 06:06 · Score: 1

I'd rather make them use spyware-crippled first-release XP installs with no firewalls or patches with no spam blocking on their email clients as they are forced to write, print, address, stamp (at their cost), and send a personal apology to every person whose electronic privacy they have invaded.

If that doesn't make them see the errors of their ways nothing will.

--
In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by zangdesign · 2004-08-18 10:54 · Score: 1

Can we draw and quarter them afterwards?

--
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
Re:... which should be on the FRONT PAGE! by archivis · 2004-08-20 10:16 · Score: 1

Sounds like a plan!

--
In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.

Black hole them by router_ninja · 2004-08-17 08:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

it's a work around, and it's not pretty, but black hole the traffic before it hits the segment you have your ids's on (if possible). Example of known spyware destination ips (google): 4.4.23.227 4.8.104.90 4.18.162.102 4.21.117.158 4.36.44.3 4.38.98.140 4.43.44.32 4.43.44.128 4.65.105.109 12.14.172.204 12.29.97.96 12.30.241.70 12.30.241.74 12.30.241.106 12.30.241.242 12.36.78.54 12.37.62.0 12.39.105.80 12.47.196.49 12.98.204.163 12.99.231.36 12.129.72.201 12.129.198.41 12.129.201.99 12.129.204.6 12.129.204.99 12.129.204.107 12.129.204.122 12.129.204.125 12.129.204.158 12.129.204.160 12.129.204.183 12.129.204.197 12.129.204.204 12.129.204.208 12.129.204.219 12.129.205.102 12.129.205.105 12.129.205.120 12.129.205.162 12.129.205.167 12.129.205.171 12.129.205.206 12.129.205.220 12.129.211.125 12.129.225.165 12.129.229.191 12.129.248.48 12.129.248.128 12.130.12.30 12.130.12.106 12.130.91.7 12.145.139.160 12.148.21.23 12.148.209.196 12.153.20.152 12.153.20.157 12.158.80.10 12.168.32.90 12.168.33.58 12.168.33.194 24.1.248.148 24.3.113.25 24.7.145.249 24.27.205.221 24.30.8.185 24.42.211.66 24.57.164.38 24.57.240.53 24.58.172.230 24.71.18.34 24.72.3.189 24.90.4.150 24.90.243.203 24.101.203.184 24.104.40.39 24.104.40.52 24.106.94.101 24.108.132.26 24.125.77.118 24.126.133.124 24.141.149.114 24.151.184.187 24.173.79.235 24.207.243.16 24.218.47.171 24.222.112.75 24.229.80.135 24.235.212.163 24.242.151.203 38.113.1.80 38.113.1.111 38.113.1.151 38.113.1.155 38.113.1.159 38.113.3.122 38.113.193.6 38.113.198.80 38.113.198.132 38.113.198.136 38.113.198.176 38.113.198.235 38.113.199.63 38.113.204.182 38.114.129.148 38.117.144.27 38.117.144.30 38.117.144.50 38.117.144.162 38.117.174.2 38.117.174.20 38.118.144.180 38.119.65.135 38.119.65.137 38.170.72.194 61.8.3.212 61.16.133.250 61.43.30.91 61.78.61.223 61.115.205.23 61.129.67.141 61.129.67.149 61.129.67.151 61.129.69.190 61.135.131.23 61.135.131.31 61.135.131.36 61.135.131.39 61.135.131.42 61.135.131.128 61.135.131.174 61.135.131.237 61.139.65.222 61.145.75.227 61.145.75.233 61.149.2.221 61.152.251.25 61.177.222.222 61.213.156.128 62.13.25.201 62.13.25.209 62.23.124.88 62.23.137.170 62.26.219.11 62.27.21.101 62.27.59.227 62.27.59.245 62.39.85.0 62.39.108.98 62.39.122.20 62.56.244.55 62.57.74.14 62.58.2.5 62.65.34.64 62.65.36.136 62.65.252.93 62.65.252.226 62.69.162.144 62.69.162.171 62.75.193.84 62.93.224.242 62.96.181.197 62.97.109.50 62.101.246.77 62.104.23.56 62.115.254.26 62.118.240.27 62.118.248.72 62.118.251.0 62.119.21.132 62.119.21.135 62.119.21.150 62.119.21.157 62.119.133.10 62.119.133.11 62.121.105.75 62.146.24.251 62.146.222.65 62.148.166.3 62.149.0.12 62.149.0.140 62.149.36.64 62.150.129.118 62.153.59.95 62.160.32.0 62.161.184.96 62.172.199.20 62.178.238.135 62.181.185.37 62.181.185.44 62.189.43.224 62.189.74.144 62.189.244.232 62.193.206.144 62.210.139.48 62.210.164.83 62.212.117.198 62.219.114.145 62.233.196.72 etc. etc. etc.

--
CINCINNATI BELL IS TEH SUCK.

Re:Black hole them by BigBlackDog · 2004-08-17 10:43 · Score: 1

MODS: This may be 'interesting', but it is more informative (if you like IP lists).
And, formatting?

--
/* This comment may not be thread-safe */
Re:Black hole them by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 12:44 · Score: 0

Hey, look Ma, it's me!

- 61.135.131.36

p.s. no, really, it is... reformat time...
Re:Black hole them by tehcyder · 2004-08-17 22:15 · Score: 1

it's not pretty
You can say that again.

--
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

Venture Capitalist? by jaxon6 · 2004-08-17 08:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

Why the fuck is Venture Capitalist capitalized? Here's a news item: Boston Student Nurse performs CPR on fellow student, saving his life.

See how stupid it looks?

--
Do you see the sig? Do you have it in your sights? Why yes, Miss Moneypenny...

Re:Venture Capitalist? by PCM2 · 2004-08-17 09:27 · Score: 1

My personal favorite was one time, while working at a computer magazine, a sentence in an article contained the phrase, "convicted computer criminal Kevin Mitnick." And the copy desk uppercased it!

--
Breakfast served all day!
Re:Venture Capitalist? by jmanforever · 2004-08-17 11:00 · Score: 0

They didn't mean to capitalize it. MS Word made it that way.
Re:Venture Capitalist? by Motherfucking+Shit · 2004-08-17 19:50 · Score: 1

Here's a news item: Boston Student Nurse performs CPR on fellow student, saving his life. See how stupid it looks?
Hmm, you're right. boston is a pretty small town compared to other cities around the world, so I guess the capital b is a bit much after all. Oh, and go bruins, can't wait for the NHL season to start back up!

P.S. hiawatha bray is going to kill me for this.

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.

as long as spyware actually does something by Savatte · 2004-08-17 08:59 · Score: 1

people will continue to install it, simply for the extremely minor "benefits".

True story: At work last week, this girl was complaining because the system administrator uninstalled weatherbug after she left. She was upset because she wanted to know the temperature outside. Nevermind that she works indoors, that there are windows 15 feet from her desk, and she can walk another 15 feet and actually get outside. In her mind, weatherbug was crucial to her day.

Re:as long as spyware actually does something by almostmanda · 2004-08-17 09:11 · Score: 1

I've actually run into tons of people who LOVE weatherbug and beg me not to delete it every time I help them clean their systems. Can anyone recommend an alternative program that does the same thing but isn't so evil?
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by Wescotte · 2004-08-17 09:22 · Score: 4, Informative

Just toss up a link that opens www.weather.com and puts in their zip code for them.
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:48 · Score: 1, Informative

I hate to break it to you, but weather.com has become corrupt as well. weatherunderground.com is about as good as it gets right now, and then you get people complaining to you for political reasons when you have them go there. Weather on the internet is lose-lose.
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by Tripster · 2004-08-17 09:50 · Score: 1

Canadians can download WeatherEye from www.theweathernetwork.com, it seems to be spyware free.

It also features US locations apparently.
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by Zerbey · 2004-08-17 09:53 · Score: 1

Sure, go to the local dollar store and buy a thermometer.
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by madcow_ucsb · 2004-08-17 11:19 · Score: 1

Or just go straight to the source. http://www.nws.noaa.gov. I sure as hell don't use weather.com anymore since they started using flash ads.
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 14:59 · Score: 0

I've written one myself that kicks ass, if I do say so myself. All who have used it agree.

Needs the .NET framework though.

thread on neowin: http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=17 5813 <--should lack spaces
my site: http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/stu/msowul
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 18:23 · Score: 0

WeatherPulse. No spyware that i can see (or google) so i *think* its ok. Comes set for US, but can easily be set (manually-using weather.com codes) for other locations. I have the local radar image updated every 30mins on my desktop, or faster when storms are comming through.
Who needs to go outside?
Re:as long as spyware actually does something by t_pet422 · 2004-08-26 08:01 · Score: 1

www.weathercorneralert.com

9 circles???? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:00 · Score: 0

If I remember right, there are only 7 circles in the Inferno...

Re:9 circles???? by vrTeach · 2004-08-17 09:16 · Score: 2, Informative

Nope, 9 is correct. The Divine Comedy

--
-- Mein Systemadminstrator hat einen großen schwarzen Moustache.
Re:9 circles???? by xsupergr0verx · 2004-08-17 09:25 · Score: 1

The Onion is, however, dispatches from the 10th circle.

--

Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
Re:9 circles???? by meringuoid · 2004-08-18 00:16 · Score: 1

Nine in Baator, and a possibly infinite number in the Abyss, IIRC.

--
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.

Retardedness by router_ninja · 2004-08-17 09:01 · Score: 1

Sorry for the formatting.

--
CINCINNATI BELL IS TEH SUCK.

Re:Retardedness by grendelkhan · 2004-08-17 11:53 · Score: 1

Cincibell totally is teh suck.

My mother-in-law's DSL speed is 130 up/600 down. Even they can't explain that one to me.

--
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
Re:Retardedness by Digz · 2004-08-18 00:52 · Score: 1

Nah, you must be mistaken! CinBell roxxorz!! I mean, their DSL is waaaaay better than RoadRunner, right? Even though I get 3x the speed from my RoadRunner at home that I do from our Zoomtown line at work, Zoomtown is waaaaaaaaay better! ;)

--
SYS 64738
Re:Retardedness by grendelkhan · 2004-08-18 01:51 · Score: 1

actually i mistyped - her speed's 130 down / 600 up. Which is great for BitTorrent, but totally backwards from what I'd expect. And of course customer service has gotten back to me quickly on this issue.

--
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na

Windows is cheeper than Linux?? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:01 · Score: 0

Windows XP + Virus Subscription + AdAware Subscription < Free That does not make sense. Look at the monkey.

MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:07 · Score: 0

If everyone on Slashdot could convert just a couple of friends/family to use just a couple open source alternatives it would be great!

Re:MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 12:34 · Score: 0

Where do I sign up for dman mod points? They sounds useful.

Really? by Code+Dark · 2004-08-17 09:09 · Score: 0

I didn't know that there was any argument as to whether or not Claria/Gator was spyware.. odd.

--
- Code Dark

Re:Really? by vrTeach · 2004-08-17 09:19 · Score: 2, Informative

Claria prefer to call it Online Behavioral Marketing, according to their web site.

--
-- Mein Systemadminstrator hat einen großen schwarzen Moustache.
Re:Really? by Code+Dark · 2004-08-17 11:19 · Score: 2, Funny

"I'm not a spy, I'm simply observing the behavior of your military movements..."

--
- Code Dark

It is a good reason... by hsoft · 2004-08-17 09:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

It is a good reason not to advertise with Overture... Advertising with them is a good way to make yourself a bad name.

--
perception is reality

Mod parent... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:14 · Score: 0

Computer-racist. Die troll.

PDF document listing the 9 circles of spyware hell by 5amTheButcher · 2004-08-17 09:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

Here's the link - now, what in that made it necessary to be distributed as a PDF, and not as an HTML/XML document? The proliferation of PDFs for information that can be displayed consistantly in other, more compact and less processor hungry formats, is frankly disturbing.

--
Cash prize, guaranteed!

SPyware is a problem... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:20 · Score: 0

End users do stupid things. Put a PHD in front of a CRT and his IQ drops 100 points. There is a market for Anti Spyware apps. Computer Associates just the other day bought up Pest Patrol, probably the only commercial spyware scanner that we have tried and liked.

But with C.A. owning it now? Play Taps....CA can kill anything.

NO WAY. Spybot it is.

Need to have a seventh level by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:22 · Score: 1, Insightful

For things that are "more evil than evil" like Xupiter. Xupiter was MUCH MUCH worse than anything that Gator has ever done...

TSR?? makes sense by gosand · 2004-08-17 09:23 · Score: 5, Funny

I had to grin when you referred to the tray programs as TSRs. You've been doing this awhile, eh?

From everything2.com:

TSR: an acronym from the words Testosterone Sterilized (female) Rat. A TSR manifests the persistent estrus syndrome. Lacking ovulatory cycles, she is sterile. The condition is induced experimentally by injections of testosterone prior to the age of eleven days. The first five days of life are the most sensitive or critical ones. Smaller doses are then effective. The effect is life-long.

So TSRs are sterilized vermin with teeth but no balls. Sounds about right.

--

My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

Anti spyware toolbar? by Hamster+Lover · 2004-08-17 09:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

Others may have mentioned it, but an anti-spyware toolbar is like an anti-violence machine gun.

Cold Cash by COMON$ · 2004-08-17 09:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

Malware companies are not the only ones generating revenue here. There are a lot of Techs out there who are raking in the cash removing all this malware. It would be interesting to see some stats on how much money is spent removing all that crap.

--
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?

Re:Cold Cash by kcb93x · 2004-08-17 18:15 · Score: 1

I charge $45 per stop right now, in house, to clean up a given PC.

This includes a spyware cleanup (using adaware and spybot at the moment - planning on expanding) and a basic system cleanup/optimization.

I get a fair amount of takers, considering I work basically on word-of-mouth.

I know Best Buy gets even more...I want to say $60 minimum.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.

Mmmmm... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:32 · Score: 0

What a cutie - I wouldn't mind Sharon my Wienbar with her.

Quite True, however... by TiggertheMad · 2004-08-17 09:33 · Score: 1

If your background task *is* generally useful, why not doccument what it does somewhere, where I can find, and let me decide?

I understand you think that you are being helpful, but so does every other engineer who authors some hyper-osfucated TSR with a name like "RMMU.exe". And judging from some task manager listings I have seen, there is enough of you to double the population in China.

--

HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!

Let it go by yoshi_mon · 2004-08-17 09:34 · Score: 1

I can agree with basically everything you said but for:

...and even then i could probably only justify it for its graphics and video capabilities.

It's been a while since the Mac platform has had any claim to being better at video than the x86 architecture. The fact that Mac's arn't even at the cutting edge of 3d cards should be proof enough of that, and yes that's really more of a gamer thing but it still proves the point.

There are still some good reasons to justify buying a Mac but at least be honest about it before you plunk down the cash that could buy you two x86 PCs for one.

--

Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!

Re:Let it go by Mikeydude750 · 2004-08-17 10:32 · Score: 0

Except that a decent Mac video system(with Final Cut Pro) will cost much, much less than almost any other professional-level video setup.
Re:Let it go by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 13:18 · Score: 0

actually I use a PC to edit my mini dv footage and trust me it was a helluva lot cheaper. Athlon XP 2500 333 with 512 and a couple 120 gigs runs Vagas perfectly. I've used final cut and really I'm not sure what the big deal is. I've also got PS and Illus on my PC, but I havent tried them on the mac, not sure if they're better or not.

Spybot S+D has REALTIME protection by gelfling · 2004-08-17 09:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

So use it and it will block nearly everything it is capable of identifying. Keep the sig file up to date and run it off the scheduler every once in a while. Blow your Browser cache away once a week. In fact blow away ALL the cookies on a regular interval.

You will have essentially no spyware.

Ok, if it's so damned profitable... by danharan · 2004-08-17 09:40 · Score: 2, Funny

and people don't seem to care...

I propose we have an OSS implementation (well, likely we'd end up with a dozen, but stay with me), and make absolutely sure that people wanting to get paid for bundling it WARN people. We also give people an easy way to uninstall the software, and design it so that we're not invading people's privacy.

Monies raised could be used to fund OSS projects, marketing, design, usability, librairies, whatever we decide is useful. (Oh, yeah, I can see that forking into a thousand camps!).

Any takers? :)

--
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"

You must fight evil with another kind of evil* by idontgno · 2004-08-17 09:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Imagine you own a peer-to-peer file-sharing application (for example, Kazaa) that is being used for copyright infringement en masse. People will do almost anything to get it, short of paying for it directly. So you get an adware distributor (say Claria, formerly Gator) to pay per installation of your application if you will bundle its adware.

Given that:

(MP|RI)AA hates P2P softare;
Claria is subsidizing the installation of P2P software;
Claria is profiting from the use of P2P software;
(MP|RI)AA habitually sues those responsible for the availability or use of P2P software:

Obiously, (MP|RI)AA should be suing Claria. Hard.

*The Chronicles of Riddick

--
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.

I've never really seen spyware by jimicus · 2004-08-17 09:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm serious. I've never really seen much spyware.

True, I'm an IT professional. And on my home computer I use Linux almost exclusively.

And at work: nothing. Nada. Those few who have Internet access it's closely monitored & filtered, incoming email is thoroughly scanned and systems are locked down. And I see no spyware.

Last time I booted Windows at home (just a NAT'ing firwall as protection), it was Win2K and I did see a premium dialler try and install. Seems to me that the malware vendors are yearning for the Bad Old Days of Windows '9x, complete with 9 levels of DLL hell and drivers written by barbary apes. So they're using whatever they can to bring those days back.

Things like that remind me why I stopped working with Windows.

Re:I've never really seen spyware by The_Mr_Flibble · 2004-08-17 19:27 · Score: 1

I work as a network engineer for an isp and I was forced to use windows on my desktop machine (boo hiss) anyway as I use windows for my gaming needs at home I was used to it (that and I put a firewall between my windows box and the internal lan). And I have never had any problems with spyware or addware. However if I am ever feeling down I just go along to our marketing department and start running adaware on their machines It's to funny. I found 3 trojans last time that he said he must of accidently installed when he downloaded some games
Re:I've never really seen spyware by jimicus · 2004-08-17 20:12 · Score: 1

Ooooh, I could have so much fun with that....

Accidentally downloaded them when you installed a game, you say?

You are aware that the IT policy specifically bans games on company computers? You're not? That's a shaaaame (really lay it on). Have you read the staff handbook? Your contract? Good, good. Who's your line manager?

Geez, talk about picky... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 09:52 · Score: 0

Back in the DOS world, you could only run one program at once, so your TSRs really did need to terminate if the next program is to run.

Fast forward ten years and we've invented this thing called `` multi tasking '' that lets us run more than one thing at once. So, the modern TSRs do not need to terminate in order to return control to other processes.

However, from a user's perspective they have terminated, so I thought the comparison to TSRs was quite apt.

(Posted anonymously so I don't lose the moderation I've just done)

Re:Geez, talk about picky... by drinkypoo · 2004-08-17 10:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

Well I admit I was being a wanker, but we didn't exactly invent multitasking so much later, it was being done in the age of DOS too. In fact a lot of the stuff that DOS does is a Unix ripoff, like redirection and pipes, and many of the commands. Of course it doesn't do it as well as Unix, but who expects it to? We certainly have brought Multitasking more to the consumer level, though. However, the first Amiga was released in 1985 and I should not need to tell you that its multitasking abilities are not equalled by any version of Windows until Windows 95. (Its other abilities are still not equalled by Windows in some ways, and far surpassed in others, but we won't go there.)

Also, GEOS was released for the C= 64 in 1986 and had pretty credible multitasking abilities, at least the equal (heh) of Windows 3.0, which didn't come out until 1990 - interestingly the same time at which GEOS came out for the PC. It's quite a shame that Windows triumphed over the far-technically-superior GEOS... Your numbers are spot on if you only consider PCs though, since QDOS is from 1980. If that's what you meant, ignore my sideways rant.

DOS sucked, though it is okay for doing one thing at a time. TSRs regularly stepped on one another and in general were a big pain in the ass. As much as you could get done with MARK and REL back in the day, I'm glad that time is over.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Geez, talk about picky... by EtherMonkey · 2004-08-17 16:41 · Score: 1

Oh man, the flashback is so vivid it burns!
MARK and REL.
QEMM386.SYS RAM X=C800-CFFF.
DesqView running four copies of RBBS-PC (Quad Courier HST! 20MB On-Line! ASCII menus and art!)
I just need to find 32K of contiguous upper memory to LOADHI that damn Novell NET.EXE redirector.

Nurse quick: more Haloperidol.

--
--- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]

Oh? Then sue them for the DVD logging by SmallFurryCreature · 2004-08-17 09:56 · Score: 1

MS has itself admitted that its mediaplayer phoned home with the info of wich DVD you were watching. Complete with identifiable information. An accident they called it. They really didn't mean to do it. Of course they claimed this AFTER someone else proved they did. MS own quality QA didn't detect it. Or so they claim. (It called home to get info about the DVD you were watching, was the excuse, to give you a better viewing experience. Whenever someone wants to give me a better experience my paranoia rises through the roof)

Now go to court and demand they pay damages. Good luck.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:

You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

And Lavasoft actually *does* quantify by empaler · 2004-08-17 10:00 · Score: 1

all the evil spyware, which in part is what the article called out for.
I'm surprised that no language nazis have complained over the /. summary yet, though.

What defines the circles? by red+floyd · 2004-08-17 10:06 · Score: 1

I did RTFA, and all I saw was an admission that BA Partners belongs in circle 3 (gluttons).

Where does everyone else belong, especially Gator, Bonzi Buddy, and their friends?

--
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy

Re:What defines the circles? by knarfling · 2004-08-17 10:41 · Score: 4, Informative

There is a .pdf file listed in the article. Downloading it shows Claria belongs in circle 6, The Heretics. Browser hijackers are circle 7, The Violent. Software that charges you without your knowledge is circle 8, the Liars, and software that tracks you keystrokes or transmits personal information belongs in the lowest of the low, The Betrayers.

--
Great civilizations have lived and died on false theories. Don't mess up mine with a few facts.

AOL stunned me too by Lispy · 2004-08-17 10:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

when I read the button on their homepage:
"You may already have a version of AOL installed on your computer! If you'd like to check us to check for you please click here..."

This is really sad. AOL has penetrated the whole planet with CDs for so many years that they can simply assume that there might already be some version of their adware-dialup-crap on any given machine. They admit with this button that they are well aware that most users are totally clueless of what software they are running on their computers. "Save me, AOL!"

MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:22 · Score: 0

Flamebait ? Please - no dman mod point when you need them.

Spyware is getting nastier by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:23 · Score: 1, Informative

Most of my work as a PC tech these days is removing spyware and trojans from user's machine. Some of the stuff out there is really, really nasty. Spyware creators have now started employing trojan tacticts such as wrapping the spyware files in rootkits to hide files and registry entries. I suspect this is mostly due to the money involved. The more bucks that are in the game the nastier these critters will become.

I just wish everyone ran a tool like Trojan Hunter or Ad-aware, as it would make my job much easier. After cleaning the same stuff from the 10th machine the same day you get kind of fed up...

(AC because I already modded this discussion) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:35 · Score: 0

BTW, if you think Linux users don't pirate media, you're on fucking crack :)

He didn't say Linux users don't pirate media--he said we don't feel guilty about it.

Re:(AC because I already modded this discussion) by Rick+and+Roll · 2004-08-17 16:15 · Score: 1

No shit.

I fell in-to a burning ring of spyware by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 10:45 · Score: 1, Funny

I went down, down, down, and the spam rose higher,
And it burns, burns, burns...
The ring of spyware
The ring of spyware
The ring of spyware...

NICE by ElForesto · 2004-08-17 10:47 · Score: 1

That's way phat. I should have RTFM and found that out for myself!

--
There is a difference between "insightful" and "inciteful" other than spelling.

Recovering from Spyware. by Alien54 · 2004-08-17 10:58 · Score: 5, Informative

Spyware removal can be a pain. Here is a repost of something I posted earlier, along with some added details

He went down the merry path of trying to rescue the system in order to keep customer data intact. The story is typical of someone who is entering the fray without have their tools prepared in advance. The solution always looks easier than it really is.
In his case, he needed

a CD with all of the relevent tools and updates

a windows boot disk with CD support

an understanding of the windows command line in order to copy a subset of these tools to a convenient folder on the hard drive from the CD

The knowledge to run these tools from Safe mode, and how to get there in the first place

Include in the subset of tools one that can fix the broken LSP setup.
[LSP or Layered Service Provider is a piece of software that can be inserted into the Windows TCP/IP handler like a link in a chain. However, due to bugs in the LSP software or deletion of the software, this chain can get broken, rendering the user unable to access the Internet. Spyware is good at this, and some cleaners leave a broken LSP behind.

With the correct tool, the fix takes seconds. Without the tool, you need to uninstall and re-install the winsocket, or else the same with the entire network support. Otherwise you fall into the trap this poor bloke got into.]

tips - I deal with this stuff all of the time. The best data on this stuff can be found in articles at spywareinfo.net - the forums are not bad either, although spywarewarrior.com also has good forums. also good to have is this list of known rogue spyware cleaners [spywarewarrior.com], along with this list of Anti-Spyware Orphans & Outcasts [spywarewarrior.com]

My current recommended free antivirus is Avast! Home Edition [avast.com], which is very low maintenance for the home user, and requires registration for the free license. It also protect a number of common Instant Messenger clients, as well as several common P2P clients. It is better than AVG in my opinion, and detects many trojans as well as spyware.

You can get a system that is so hosed that it will not boot, not even into safe mode, even under XP. The solution there to remove the hard drive, drop it into an external drive enclosure, and hook it up to another system where you can use scanning software to do a basic clean so you can boot in the original configuration. Once it boots you can install cleaners from safe mode, and then run cleaners from inside every user account. Note that you still need to run the clean from inside each user account because otherwise things will hide in the seperate user folders.

Re: the LSP chain break -- HijackThis can sometimes fix it. Otherwise, Spybot can fix it. Xblock will also fix it. [xblock is an excellent first pass cleaner, with a freeware version available). (Spybot second, AdAware third)I always use more than one scanner, and scan multiple times.] Immunisers such as SpywareBlaster are also nice. All of these packages are mentioned at spywareinfo.com, which sometimes goes under due to DDOS problems from people who do not like the services they provide. (insert obligatory plug for someone to help them out, one way or another.)

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"

Re:Recovering from Spyware. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:34 · Score: 0

1. Boot with Knoppix disk and save/copy/move data.
2. Reformat C:
3. Reinstall Windows (well, you were going to do it anyway soon).

Alternate step 2.
2. Restore Ghost (or other) backup.
3. Party on!
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by Alien54 · 2004-08-17 12:47 · Score: 4, Informative

Unless your windows back is infected, which often happens. Often the buggers will be in there for several months, which means that your backup is infected, even if ghosted.

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by swv3752 · 2004-08-17 15:03 · Score: 1

Housecall works pretty nice bbut really needs a broadband connection.

--
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by gblues · 2004-08-17 17:19 · Score: 3, Informative

XP SP2 also includes an automatic LSP chain fix tool.

Nathan
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by sporktoast · 2004-08-18 08:23 · Score: 1

My current recommended free antivirus is Avast! Home Edition [avast.com] [avast.com], which is very low maintenance for the home user, and requires registration for the free license. It also protect a number of common Instant Messenger clients, as well as several common P2P clients. It is better than AVG in my opinion, and detects many trojans as well as spyware.
Does anyone have any recommended Anti-Virus software for Windows that doesn't depend on Internet Explorer? I've had clients got their IE hosed by some mal-ware or other that effectively killed their copy of Norton AV. Norton & McAfee & Avast & AnitVir & ... all need some version of IE either for the interface or for downloading virus definition updates. Hose IE and it can take your AV software with it.
I'd like to have good AV software to recommend to them, but too many of the available choices seem to have drunk the MS koolaid of using IE as a GUI/engine component.

--
In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by Paracelcus · 2004-08-18 09:34 · Score: 1

My personal favorite Spyware removal product is Spybot Search & Destroy (Free) http://www.spybot.info/en/index.html

Works great and has resident protection.

--
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by AXNJAXN · 2004-08-18 10:12 · Score: 1

Suppose it's your job to remove spyware for a living. Does that mean your job is to make your own job unneeded. *Pondering the potential paradox*
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by jonbryce · 2004-08-18 11:02 · Score: 1

Symantec AV Corporate doesn't require IE as far as I can see.
Re:Recovering from Spyware. by Tassach · 2004-08-18 13:43 · Score: 1

The goal of every good Sysadmin/DBA should be to automate himself out of a job. The real trick is to make sure your boss doesn't catch on that you've done so.
Remember, kids: if you're going to do the same general task more than twice, it's worth your while to write a shell script to do it for you. If it can possibly break, preemptively write a script to help you fix it, and write another one to monitor it to make sure it isn't broken. Like a boy scout, a sysadmin's motto is "be prepared".

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?

What the hell by Emot · 2004-08-17 11:01 · Score: 0

Is '*The Chronicles of Riddick' supposed to signify, or refer to, or be referred by? Why is it italicized? It appears to be a footnote, albeit an unrefrencable one. WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON WITH THAT LINE? WHY DID YOU WRITE THAT?

--

ALL HAIL THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH FROM THE PIT WITH HIS CUTE WIDDLE NOSE =^o.o^=

Re:What the hell by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 13:39 · Score: 0

There's a little star after his header. Fighting evil with evil or something of the sort

Adbar by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 11:12 · Score: 0

Can someone tell me how to uninstall this infernal Adbar? This piece of adware is so nasty that is doesn't even appear in Add/Remove Programs!

Re:Adbar by Alien54 · 2004-08-17 11:25 · Score: 2, Informative

removal instructions here

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Re:Adbar by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 23:23 · Score: 0

You complete spoon. Did you even click the parent link?

Not the EULA... by Cyno01 · 2004-08-17 11:44 · Score: 1

Burrying it in there isn't much better. But Winamp and the like have a checkbox (checked by default though) about sending anonymous usage statistics. DivX says right in the install "This software is supported by GAIM advertising." That is proper disclosure.

--
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."

Also... by pslam · 2004-08-17 11:48 · Score: 1

Have you seen how long some of these EULAs are? Some are longer than the T&Cs for a credit card. There must surely be some case law against burying unreasonable fine print in massive agreements.

Personally by odaen · 2004-08-17 11:50 · Score: 3, Informative

I don't consider Claria all that bad. It's easiesh to remove, and can be done by practically any anti-malware program (except maybe Yahoo's earlier attempts), and actually tells you *what* is installed. (At least it did when I had it on my PC)

Possibly the most annoying ones are the anomymous ones such as 'CoolWebSearch' which you don't know what to search for to get rid of it and the ones which you have no clue how to remove 'MySearch'.

Or the worse ones at all, the ones that break the address bar so you can't access any sites via. internet Explorer. Thankfully PC Gamer has started including Mozilla Firefox on its Cd's and I reckon a few other major magaizes will follow suite.

Quite possibly the worse one is that piece of paid adware, the one which you have to format your entire P.C to get rid of all traces of it. 'AOL'.

Re:Personally by cheekyboy · 2004-08-17 15:08 · Score: 1

What the mags need to do is have a runonly exe (no installer crap) of spybot or soemthing that will scan/fix their PC from the CDROM autostart.

Now if AOL did this it would be cool, but we dont expect their rich ferrari owning directors/managers to really have a clue with all those whores they have every weekend. Any one have a virtual vodoodoll website?

--
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.

Re:TSR?? makes sense by BillX · 2004-08-17 11:55 · Score: 2, Funny

And all this time I thought it stood for Terminate & Suckup Resources.

--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.

The Best way... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 12:07 · Score: 0

Every system that comes through our doors gets hit with Adaware, Spy Bot Seek and destroy, CWShredder, and Hijack This. And to top it all off we Install Spyware Blaster and Spyware Guard to prevent it from coming back. We've had pretty good luck with this combo so far. Any computer that comes through these door gets this combo no matter what!

Don't touch that Gator! - Claria's going *public* by AndroidCat · 2004-08-17 12:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

Adware anxiety gives Claria cold feet The decision by adware leader Claria to postpone its initial public offering comes as the fast-growing business of advertising-supported software is increasingly coming under pressure.
For years, millions of people have acquired adware as the price of using free applications such as file-trading software from the likes of Kazaa. The adware, designed to track Web-surfing behavior and deliver targeted ads such as pop-ups, has become profitable enough to draw investors' interest. (snip)

Poor babies. I hope their public offering is a burnt one.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Rise of Black Marketing by einhverfr · 2004-08-17 12:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

One of the trends I pointed out to the article (yes, I rtfa'd a while ago) is that spyware and adware models are endgangered by another trend-- the rise of what I call "black marketing" or marketing products via international cybercryme syndicates. We already have viruses which help to relay spam, and some of these (particularly online gambling and pornography) may have ties to organized crime. Remember that there *is* a connection between human trafficking and pornography but not all pornography is bad in this way. I do however suspect a connection in the rise of porn spam and organized crime.

We are also seeing a rise in the connection of spyware and adware to these gray markets. Some sites clearly cross the line and install horrible adware on one's system by exploiting security holes in Internet Explorer.

If I was releasing shareware, I would be going as fast as I could away from these techniques which are being adopted in far more visible ways by these syndicates. So it is no wonder that spyware and adware is starting to collapse as a legitimate market. But passing laws will probably further drive the market towards illegal activies.

--

LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP

What are you coding in? by lucifer_666 · 2004-08-17 12:54 · Score: 1

Even in .NET, you can send "custom" commands to a USB port. There's not much special about USB - it's still a serial port.

What you need is a driver for your device rather than a service.

Uhm... please excuse the dumb question, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 13:00 · Score: 0, Troll

I use Linux. What is spyware?

The copyright system says that the only way you can expect to receive substantial revenue from your efforts to create useful content is to prevent free access to your content. If you provide your content in the most useful form, to the largest number of people who might find it useful, your income is guaranteed to be arbitrarily close to $0.

Spyware/adware is a natural response to this problem. Closed source is less useful than open source to users of software, but the intellectual property regime says it is a better business model, precisely because customers don't know what is in the software. Spyware just takes this principle to its logical conclusion: if it is good for the customer not to know what is in their software, let's exploit this ignorance to the maximum extent possible.

This will gradually kill the market for individual developers of mass-market software. Previously you had to convince your customers that it is worth the effort to download and try out your software, and then you had to convince them to pay you for it if they liked it, even though it is dead easy for them to not pay you and to keep on using the software anyway. Now you also have the hopeless task of convincing your customers that someone they have never heard of is not a spyware author.

--
Music: a super-stimulus for the perception of musicality. Musicality: a perceived aspect of speech.

Incorrect by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 14:11 · Score: 0

"An EULA is no different"

What EULA. I never agreed to a EULA. YOu don't have my signature, nothing.

And even if you can prove that I agreed to a EULA, you can't prove WHAT I agreed to.

Further, EULA's are not enforceable. Let me repeat that. Software EULA's are not enforceable.

You may wish they were, your achy breaky heart may think they are. But they aren't. They're mental masturbation for illegitimate companies with something to hide.

What are you hiding, you little cockroach?

What a coincidence by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 14:19 · Score: 0

Without your mother and sister, I would have no sex life. Thanks to both of them, I can have sex whenever I want it.

How does that feel?

Re:What a coincidence by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 15:56 · Score: 0

I am have sex whenever I want

Webroot Spysweeper is primo by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 14:31 · Score: 0

I like Adaware, and Spybot S&D, but frankly, they're just not as good as Spysweeper.

Re:PDF document listing the 9 circles of spyware h by Lehk228 · 2004-08-17 15:00 · Score: 1

well PDF files may be a PITA at times they are still better than something with IE-only formatting.

--
Snowden and Manning are heroes.

It's a compromise... by One+Childish+N00b · 2004-08-17 16:00 · Score: 1

...even presuming Yahoo's tool DOES spy then would you rather the average Windows user had ONE piece of software spying on them, or 10 or 20 others?

Educating people on this does not work, they're always going to install crap like this on their machines because it looks shiny and tells them what the weather's like or whatever - I'm the poor schmuck who has to fix my parents' and girlfriend's (and her parents' - hurrah) computers when they break due to the amount of crap they've heaped onto it, and I'd be more than happy to let Yahoo! do the hard work in exchange for a little browser snooping - I'm assuming Yahoo's bar doesn't break the computer like amassed spyware does.

You're right, we shouldnt have to tolerate it at all, but people are more likely to trust Yahoo telling them their weather program is evil incarnate than they are if I or you tell them. We all might be the 'techies in the family', but Yahoo has huge mindshare with net newbies - to people like my mother, their word is Gospel, and as Net Utopia aint comin' yet, we have to compromise - unless you want to be fixing half a dozen machines every few weeks.

--
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.

uh huh huh what a dumb ass* by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 16:03 · Score: 0

/me points and laughs...

* beaver and butthole

Re:PDF document listing the 9 circles of spyware h by Rick+and+Roll · 2004-08-17 16:24 · Score: 1

The proliferation of PDFs for information that can be displayed consistantly in other, more compact and less processor hungry formats, is frankly disturbing.

Because it was first published on paper?

Because they want people to think of it as part of a print medium, and that way they get the book sold?

It's much worse than people think. (Rant) by Decclan+Macmanus · 2004-08-17 16:26 · Score: 5, Interesting

First let me explain what I do for a living. I am a computer technician for a Networking company that handles law firms, doctor offices and such. Each of these places will have anywhere from 5 to 100 computers in their office. I would say I am forced to clean machines of spyware, malware, adware and viruses about 90% of my work orders. I have become proficient in doing so with all the practice I've had. These office employees of my clients just download everything they see. They answer yes to every question that get asked on a website. They do not read it and wouldn't understand it if they did. I am talking about EULA agreements of course. The legalese subtly hides the subject of the agreement that even the lawyers at these law firms cannot decipher it. I've done some testing on how easy it is to get infected with spyware and viruses without the consumer's awareness. I connected a freshly installed Windows XP machine to a broadband connection with no firewall in place and no spyware or virus detection programs in place. I surfed well known websites that millions of people search everyday for about five minutes. I then installed Spybot 1.3, Adaware 6.0 and Hijackthis onto the machine. In those five minutes of unprotected internet browsing the computer had over five different spyware programs installed including: VX2 Better Internet, a CoolWebSearch varient, New.net varient and some a couple of tracking cookies. This was five minutes of browsing mind you and I got three of the worse programs in their genre. I have recently found out that New.net actually has bundle parterships with several big companys including Earthlink, Net Zero and Juno. New.net has actually threatened or sued spyware removal companys like Spybot and Adaware. Spybot backed down from them and removed any New.net detection from their program. Lavasoft who makes Adaware is fightning back in court against New.net. New.net claims these companys are giving a bad name to their software by saying they are malware programs that collect data or supply ads to the end-user. New.net says it does not do that but I know first hand they are lying. I had a machine that was infected with New.net that caused AD popups, totally screwed the clients network connections. And these companys are legal businesses!! All I know is the government needs to step in and regulate these companys. The invasion of privacy they do on our computers is no different from a voyeur peeping in your house window or somebody tapping your phone or reading your mail without your knowledge. And yes Microsoft operating systems are the easy targets because a good portion of the world and mostly home users use Microsoft OS's. Mac and Linux people think they are safe but that will change. The more people use those machines the more spyware and viruses will surface. There already is some spyware programs for the Macintosh and a couple of viruses. The best thing for the home user to do is takes steps in protecting your computer. Use a good firewall, Keep your Windows updated, Use a different browser (I use Firefox) than Internet Explorer. Have a good antivirus program installed and updated everyday. New viruses are discovered nearly everyday. Use programs like Spybot, Ad-aware and Spyblaster( (protects against bad Active X downloads.) Take the time to actually learn to use these programs fully. Spybot has some extra tools that are great. HijackThis is great but you need to know what you are looking at. If you see a EULA agreement pop-up on your screen take the time to read it and also look up the company or software you are trying to install on Google.com and do some research on what people say about their programs. Pestpatrol.com is also a great site for learning about these malicous programs. The spyware developers are getting smarter as well. There are some spyware programs that run in the background but do not show a process in Taskmanager. Some variants regenerate themselves even after removal (usually by some leftover registry entries called "tricklers" or install programs that are hiding in your Te

Re:It's much worse than people think. (Rant) by alexbartok · 2004-08-17 19:04 · Score: 2, Funny

line
breaks
make
things
easier
to
read :P
Re:It's much worse than people think. (Rant) by Cyrgo · 2004-08-18 02:01 · Score: 0

You do realize that he is ranting?

Rant:
1: to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

He is talking too excitedly to have time to pause and take a breath. ;-)

Re:TSR?? makes sense by gaspyy · 2004-08-17 18:21 · Score: 1

I think the grandparent was referring to TSR as Terminate and Stay Resident - they were programs in the MS DOS era that enabled some sort of crude multitasking by use of interrupts. Such programs could monitor disk or keyboard activity, stuff like that.

these companies by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-17 19:59 · Score: 0

are probably fronts for the you know who
c_a
fb_
ns_
And others gouv agencies,
of which one does not know anything,
why else is there no law against them

wake up too late
bend over
and kiss your _ss
GOOD-BYE

"Don't be evil "
equals
"trust me"

The last thing the guy heard just
before falling over the cliff was
"trust me I won't push you"

OK / Yes / No buttons considered harmful by stud9920 · 2004-08-17 20:51 · Score: 1

If the OK/Yes/No buttons were unavailable, people would not have to read the stupid long text those are preceded with to know wether to click Yes or No.

In most cases, these mus be replaced with a short sentence that summarizes the action. How many times do clueless users press "yes" just to get rid of a dialog box they did not ask to appear ?

For instance, instead of "Do you want to install IRipYouOff Yes/No", one should be compelled to use "Do you want to IRipYouOff Install/Don't install".

Also, microsoft, please add a "never trust this site" button.

Are you all insane? by Slur · 2004-08-17 21:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

I can't believe how nearly everyone in this topic seems to accept spyware and adware as a fact of life, and that you accept the necessity of buying programs to detect and remove this stuff.

Have you all been completely brainwashed by Microsoft? The existence of spyware is Microsoft's fault, and all the time you waste over this crap is owed to you by Microsoft.

First of all, it should not be possible for software to get surreptitiously installed on your computer without your being aware of it. To the degree that this is possible it is the fault of the OS developer.

I just don't get it. If adware and spyware started showing up on Mac OS X you can bet Apple would institute sweeping changes to prevent it from happening.

Frankly I don't know why there isn't a huge class-action suit against Microsoft for encouraging spyware and adware development. And how much crossover is there between spyware and adware developers and the developers of detection/removal software.

Seriously, someone explain why you put up with it?

--
-- thinkyhead software and media

(OT) OFF-TOPIC | OFF-TOPIC | OFF-TOPIC | OFF-TOPIC by NuclearDog · 2004-08-17 21:51 · Score: 0

This is off-topic, and clearly marked as such. So, Mods, you really don't have to mod me as such and hurt my already horrible karma more. Anyways, on with my post:

The other day my friend asked if I believed in the bible, here is the response I gave: When I think of the bible, I think of a bunch of guys sitting around drunk, well, being guys. "Dude, we could like write this book about this son of god dude." "Yeah man, we could call him 'Jesus'." "What a dorky name!" So they write it and wake up the next morning with a horrible hangover. They find the shit they wrote and figuring that the church might kill 'em for it or something, they bury it. Some idiot a few hundred years later find them buried, and since they are a few hundred years old, they must be true!

ND

--
This statement is forty-five characters long.

Recovering from Spyware - The easy method by Oddly_Drac · 2004-08-17 21:52 · Score: 2, Informative

"You can get a system that is so hosed that it will not boot, not even into safe mode, even under XP."

For crying out loud; Boot from the CD, go through the motions of installing Windows XP, choose 'repair this installation'.

You can now recycle the extra verbage for other things.

--
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.

Microsoft Works by pommiekiwifruit · 2004-08-17 22:23 · Score: 1

Last night I saw the EULA for Works... OMFG!

Apart from loads of restrictions on its use - to not make anything obscene with it or use it for any commercial purpose - it says that I promise not to assert any intellectual property against Microsoft, now or forever more. So if they break my copyright or patent for something in the future, they can say, "Whoah, didn't Works come preinstalled on your machine? We own you!"

Richard Stallman needs to be told! The GPL has nothing on this license when it comes to viral properties!

Trust by MightyYar · 2004-08-18 00:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

What kind of world do we live in where we can't even trust a giant faceless corporation?

--
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.

Re:Don't touch that Gator! - Claria's going *publi by Ilgaz · 2004-08-18 01:48 · Score: 1

I hate to say but WHICH software has gator/claria stuff bundled?

Piracy stuff...

People using that crap will of course PAY for it somehow and we got Claria for it.

Altria, Claria... by celerityfm · 2004-08-18 02:00 · Score: 1

Whatsup with this *ria renaming stuff.. its as if "ria" stands for "woops we ruined our name so we had to change it to something else"

I look forward to the day where Yahoo cuts Claria loose and they crash and burn forever. I wonder how many overture advertisers realize they are supporting this dispickable band of computer hijackers.

--
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...

sad by Sv-Manowar · 2004-08-18 05:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

the amount of friends and families' pcs i see nowdays with spyware,adware and stuff on them is unfunny. They are going to have to start cracking down on this with law penalties like can spam (oh wait, that did nothing)

--
Business Voyeur

Re:Who invented FTP? by Thomas+Shaddack · 2004-08-18 06:19 · Score: 1

Or, no licence means your IP will be blocked/marked as such.

Don't be so harsh. Make a mandatory minimum knowledge standard for helpdesk access; if anybody without the "licence" calls any kind of techsupport, the support person is authorized to hang the phone on their discretion, without any repercussions. That way the dangerous systems die out on their own. Remember, it's mostly Windows.

As a bonus, the more knowledgeable people, who usually know more than the helpdesks, won't have to have to cope with yet another piece of already annoyingly big bureaucracy. (Shooting a bureaucrat should be a justifiable self-defense.)

I read EULAs by Pan+T.+Hose · 2004-08-20 10:56 · Score: 1

When was the last time you read an EULA in full?

Last time I read an EULA was when I got a new Dell laptop with Windows XP preinstalled few months ago. Of course being a remotely intelligent person I couldn't possibly agree with it so I just installed Debian, but the point is that yes, there really are people who actually read contracts they agree with, be it software EULA, bank TOC, or work NDA, no matter how long or boring it is. I will never sign or agree with anything I haven't read. Period.

--
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."

Crazy idea by Pan+T.+Hose · 2004-08-20 11:06 · Score: 1

(Sorry, I forgot to comment the second paragraph.)

Disclosure really doesn't matter when "NiftyFreeWebApp" buries the fact that it requires the sacrifice of your firstborn on page 972 of a EULA written in obfuscated legalese.

I would suggest to anyone to maybe not agree with anything which is too long to read or too hard to understand. What a crazy idea! I must be new here. No, it's much better to agree with anything and then complain.

--
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."

Re:Who invented FTP? by mo^ · 2004-08-23 20:08 · Score: 1

so those who know nothing can't get help???

thats useful, leaves those ISP helpdesk folks free to help us geeeks..... coz we ALL call helpdesks...

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bah!*@%!

Paying for a drivers test by cbr2702 · 2004-08-25 08:08 · Score: 1

In MA, the RMV charges $25 per road test and $15 per permit test.

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This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.

MSN Messenger = Adware by mgcarley · 2004-08-26 14:25 · Score: 1

I'm surprised that MSN messenger hasn't taken a sort-of google approach to advertising within instant messages...

Person X: What did you have for breakfast this morning?
[MSN] THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY SANITARIUM CORNFLAKES
Person Y: Toast with Butter
[MSN] THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY NATURES FRESH BREAD in association with THE COMPANY THAT MAKES "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S NOT BUTTER!"

or of course, it could get really dodgy:

Person X: I'm sliding my hands up your thigh.
[MSN] THIS MESSAGE BROUGH TO YOU BY TAMPAX TAMPONS
Person Y: Oh, sorry that ruined the mood.
[MSN] THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY SONY MUSIC - buy the CD "Moody Blues" at www........

you get the idea...

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Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley

Re:MSN Messenger = Adware by mgcarley · 2004-08-26 14:28 · Score: 1

What would be funny is if: Person X: Linux is way better than Windows [MSN] THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY /. (OSDN) Person Y: No, Linux is too hard... [MSN] THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY APPLE, MAC OS X or Person X: Linu [MSN] This word is not allowed in MSN messenger. Please try again. or Person X: Linu [MSN] MSN HAS CAUSED A GENERAL PROTECTION FAULT IN MSMSGS.EXE :)

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Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley

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