I think the prevailing wage issue is an important point. The department of labor has complicated tables to calculate this. In order to be granted an H1-B, you MUST be paid at least the prevailing wage, else the INS will not grant you the visa.
Where'd you come up with that? The companies doing the hiring are allowed to determine the "prevailing wage" as well as play name games with position titles. There have been several studies showing many H-1Bs make up to 30 percent less than American resident workers for the same job.
Thanks so much for your explanation. Now that I know that only *first-world* countries have expertise in management, it makes the whole situation so much more underderstandable.;)
What level of management jobs are you talking about?. . . Executives are generally big stakeholders in the company and, therefore, get to work wherever they want.
Son, you missed the point. The executives are big stakeholders only because of stock options they received because the hopeless board of directors wanted to shift blame to someone who was available after being fired by another company. Got it?
Then, the clueless CEO jumps on the offshoring bandwagon and dumps all the American workers except for management. Why? What law of nature made MBAs more insightful and more intelligent than the MSCs they're getting rid of? You might want to look up *greed* in the dictionary.
As someone who worked in manufacturing for nearly 20 years (both as peon and supervisor), I can say you're telling half the story.
If you weren't using your "legal aliens" (haha, I remember that facade) and paying them accordingly, there would be job applicants for your positions. I understand your comment about mind-numbing work, and I did it myself in sheet-metal fabrication for YEARS to get through school. People will do it if it pays.
You said that like it actually meant something. Congratulations on your MBA. If it were true, core competency in any field shouldn't be offshored, including IT. So you're saying Indian managers are too stupid to make decisions, but American managers aren't?
I'm old enough to remember the 70s. The decade of stagflation, high unemployment, the death of smokestack industries, etc. In many ways, the comments of today, mirror those of that decade. Concerns about jobs moving to other countries. Whether the youth of today will ever have jobs. Clearly the fears of the 70s were overblown. The U.S. experienced great prosperity thru the 80s and 90s.
I'm old enough to remember the 60s (and part of the 50s). The manufacturing and textile jobs left never to return. Then the electronics jobs left never to return. The shirt you wear is produced by sweatshop- or slave-labor, and there is no alternative unless you have the skill to make your own (which would be ironic).
Now, the IT jobs are leaving, but no one has ever been able to answer my question: What do we do next? Do we make burger-flipping an art form and perform for each other? What's left after IT? There's a lot of talk about service industries, but IT is a service industry. There's Roto-Rooter, I suppose, but you have to have a country whose people can afford houses before you can make a living clearing toilets.
Sorry guys, but this is what you get. That's how capitalism works. When it's cheaper to have guys in a cheaper area doing the work (i.e. PROGRAMMERS IN INDIA), then the jobs will move there.
MBAs in India are also cheaper, so why aren't the management jobs being offshored as well? Please enlighten us, oh wise one.
But is that really what is happening. When I read the above quote, I wonder, how many QUALITY programmers are losing their jobs to concerns overseas?
A lot. And it's not just programmers. The unemployment rate for engineers is above 5%, and those figures are low, since they don't include people who have run out of unemployment or have been forced to take jobs in other fields.
Do we work for less? Do we (dare I say it) unionize?
The weird thing is that companies won't even offer employees the choice of working for less. They just offshore the jobs because it looks good in the financial press, the stock price goes up, and the CEO gets to cash in his/her stock options at a fantastic profit. May they all roast in hell over a slow burning fire of stock options converted to one-dollar bills.
Wonderful. We have an AC who didn't read the article being modded up as insightful. Perhaps the AC would be so kind as to show how the continuing loss of manufacturing jobs now seems "idiotic" - and it's been going on for three decades, not three years.
To stay competetive in world markets the american companies need to reduce costs at all options, and labor cost is a very convenient option.
Oh, really? Then why is it that it's only the worker's jobs that get offshored? American companies could save many millions of dollars per year by offshoring management jobs, but that never happens.
We have American companies claiming offshore workers are better and cheaper (which is one-half bullshit) except when it comes to management. Now isn't that remarkable? We have American CEOs getting obscene salaries and bonuses for putting American residents out of work.
As their French I am supprised they are actually *fighting* to stay in buisness, god one would think they would have ran up the white flag along time ago..
Les Français sont des singes de capitulation qui mangent du fromage.
Odd. My French is pretty rusty, but it seems your French is much better than your English.
Just think. Drive for a mile, have a nice glass of water at the end of your ride.
I doubt that people are going to drink the byproduct. Think about the added humidity in LA or NY with hundreds of thousands of vehicles pumping out water vapor.
Along the same vein, ten years ago, I would never have believed that I'd be rooting for MS to die off.
Agreed, but even more so compared to twenty years ago. MS offered buggy but useable products for what they were worth - not much. Now they offer buggy and bloated products for a lot of money - with subscription licenses. They lost sight of why they became successful. They became the 800 pound gorilla and mistakenly believed they had a mandate to rule the PC world - just like IBM before them.
The GPL was the license that gave them the right to distribute Linux and all the other GPL code in their distribution. So yes, they are now subject to the terms of the GPL.
Aha! Now I see it. SCO's in the tank but attacks IBM which has deep pockets, and many lawyers, and is not afraid of a fight.
What company has loads of cash, doesn't like IBM, and could easily buy off the holders of a fading company like SCO on the condition they make it appear that their demise was caused by the GPL? Which company would profit the most by such publicity?
That's right - "quick shell script" is an oxymoron if you have less than five years experience writing the damn things...
And I'm finding out in my Perl class that Perl is not a hell of a lot better...
That's one of the silliest things I've seen posted recently. A few months of experience with scripts (including Perl) will show what a waste of time it is to build a GUI or compile a long-winded executable for every little task. Of course, if the only tool you have is a fourteen-function, programmable, rechargeable screwdriver, you probably won't use a simple nail to tack two boards together.
But that quote actually gave me new hope for PHBs. After reading the article, it seemed that swarm intelligence has the same selling points as snake oil.
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I think the prevailing wage issue is an important point. The department of labor has complicated tables to calculate this. In order to be granted an H1-B, you MUST be paid at least the prevailing wage, else the INS will not grant you the visa.
Where'd you come up with that? The companies doing the hiring are allowed to determine the "prevailing wage" as well as play name games with position titles. There have been several studies showing many H-1Bs make up to 30 percent less than American resident workers for the same job.
Linux has security problems? I've been reading this site for so long, I thought that was only in Microsoft's domain.
We do want to make Windows users feel at home as they migrate to a Linux desktop. We don't expect 'em to go cold turkey right away.
Was that really +5 funny?
I've never had mod points.
Those of us who get mod points weekly are easily amused. Try clicking on the "willing to moderate" box. :)
Group approval? By flaming against farscape? They'll probably get together to put a price on my head.
I'll start the bidding at $20. :)
But don't misinterpret that I actually endorse what is accepted as "management expertise" in the IT or any other industry.
Too late. I think everyone has grokked your interpretation of management as you first presented it. :)
And please forgive my stutter. :)
Thanks so much for your explanation. Now that I know that only *first-world* countries have expertise in management, it makes the whole situation so much more underderstandable. ;)
What level of management jobs are you talking about?. . . Executives are generally big stakeholders in the company and, therefore, get to work wherever they want.
Son, you missed the point. The executives are big stakeholders only because of stock options they received because the hopeless board of directors wanted to shift blame to someone who was available after being fired by another company. Got it?
Then, the clueless CEO jumps on the offshoring bandwagon and dumps all the American workers except for management. Why? What law of nature made MBAs more insightful and more intelligent than the MSCs they're getting rid of? You might want to look up *greed* in the dictionary.
As someone who worked in manufacturing for nearly 20 years (both as peon and supervisor), I can say you're telling half the story. If you weren't using your "legal aliens" (haha, I remember that facade) and paying them accordingly, there would be job applicants for your positions. I understand your comment about mind-numbing work, and I did it myself in sheet-metal fabrication for YEARS to get through school. People will do it if it pays.
You said that like it actually meant something. Congratulations on your MBA. If it were true, core competency in any field shouldn't be offshored, including IT. So you're saying Indian managers are too stupid to make decisions, but American managers aren't?
I'm old enough to remember the 70s. The decade of stagflation, high unemployment, the death of smokestack industries, etc. In many ways, the comments of today, mirror those of that decade. Concerns about jobs moving to other countries. Whether the youth of today will ever have jobs. Clearly the fears of the 70s were overblown. The U.S. experienced great prosperity thru the 80s and 90s.
I'm old enough to remember the 60s (and part of the 50s). The manufacturing and textile jobs left never to return. Then the electronics jobs left never to return. The shirt you wear is produced by sweatshop- or slave-labor, and there is no alternative unless you have the skill to make your own (which would be ironic).
Now, the IT jobs are leaving, but no one has ever been able to answer my question: What do we do next? Do we make burger-flipping an art form and perform for each other? What's left after IT? There's a lot of talk about service industries, but IT is a service industry. There's Roto-Rooter, I suppose, but you have to have a country whose people can afford houses before you can make a living clearing toilets.
Sorry guys, but this is what you get. That's how capitalism works. When it's cheaper to have guys in a cheaper area doing the work (i.e. PROGRAMMERS IN INDIA), then the jobs will move there.
MBAs in India are also cheaper, so why aren't the management jobs being offshored as well? Please enlighten us, oh wise one.
But is that really what is happening. When I read the above quote, I wonder, how many QUALITY programmers are losing their jobs to concerns overseas?
A lot. And it's not just programmers. The unemployment rate for engineers is above 5%, and those figures are low, since they don't include people who have run out of unemployment or have been forced to take jobs in other fields.
Do we work for less? Do we (dare I say it) unionize?
The weird thing is that companies won't even offer employees the choice of working for less. They just offshore the jobs because it looks good in the financial press, the stock price goes up, and the CEO gets to cash in his/her stock options at a fantastic profit. May they all roast in hell over a slow burning fire of stock options converted to one-dollar bills.
You just proved the validity of everything you were trying to counter with your pidgin meandering, and you can't even see it. It really is a sad day.
In 3 years this will all seem idiotic . . .
Wonderful. We have an AC who didn't read the article being modded up as insightful. Perhaps the AC would be so kind as to show how the continuing loss of manufacturing jobs now seems "idiotic" - and it's been going on for three decades, not three years.
To stay competetive in world markets the american companies need to reduce costs at all options, and labor cost is a very convenient option.
Oh, really? Then why is it that it's only the worker's jobs that get offshored? American companies could save many millions of dollars per year by offshoring management jobs, but that never happens.
We have American companies claiming offshore workers are better and cheaper (which is one-half bullshit) except when it comes to management. Now isn't that remarkable? We have American CEOs getting obscene salaries and bonuses for putting American residents out of work.
As their French I am supprised they are actually *fighting* to stay in buisness, god one would think they would have ran up the white flag along time ago..
Les Français sont des singes de capitulation qui mangent du fromage.
Odd. My French is pretty rusty, but it seems your French is much better than your English.
There's a helluva lot more than carbon dioxide and water being produced. Your point was . . . ?
Just think. Drive for a mile, have a nice glass of water at the end of your ride.
I doubt that people are going to drink the byproduct. Think about the added humidity in LA or NY with hundreds of thousands of vehicles pumping out water vapor.
Along the same vein, ten years ago, I would never have believed that I'd be rooting for MS to die off.
Agreed, but even more so compared to twenty years ago. MS offered buggy but useable products for what they were worth - not much. Now they offer buggy and bloated products for a lot of money - with subscription licenses. They lost sight of why they became successful. They became the 800 pound gorilla and mistakenly believed they had a mandate to rule the PC world - just like IBM before them.
They distributed the code.
The GPL was the license that gave them the right to distribute Linux and all the other GPL code in their distribution. So yes, they are now subject to the terms of the GPL.
Aha! Now I see it. SCO's in the tank but attacks IBM which has deep pockets, and many lawyers, and is not afraid of a fight.
What company has loads of cash, doesn't like IBM, and could easily buy off the holders of a fading company like SCO on the condition they make it appear that their demise was caused by the GPL? Which company would profit the most by such publicity?
Just kidding. :) Well, I think I'm just kidding.
Do they really do this? I mean has anyone noticed that the license of a service pack lets them "have control" over your system and the way it works?
Been away for a while? It's old news. sp3
That's right - "quick shell script" is an oxymoron if you have less than five years experience writing the damn things... And I'm finding out in my Perl class that Perl is not a hell of a lot better...
That's one of the silliest things I've seen posted recently. A few months of experience with scripts (including Perl) will show what a waste of time it is to build a GUI or compile a long-winded executable for every little task. Of course, if the only tool you have is a fourteen-function, programmable, rechargeable screwdriver, you probably won't use a simple nail to tack two boards together.
If this affects US security, can John Ashcroft detain Bill Gates?
Ashcroft would get down on his knees do a hummer for Billy G because he's a big business icon.
But that quote actually gave me new hope for PHBs. After reading the article, it seemed that swarm intelligence has the same selling points as snake oil.