You're amazing! The depth of your close mindedness is profound and unwavering. My world view allows us to co-exist, while yours is very separatist.
I am familiar with the facts on both sides of the argument, and my interpretation of their implications is where we truly differ. Every fact I know of in "support of evolution" supports what I believe - and I promise you - if it were otherwise, I would change what I believe. My agenda in this argument is to be as honest as I can be; if it were otherwise, I wouldn't sleep at night. I just wouldn't ever tolerate the dishonesty you claim that I possess. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is my observation that evolutionists believe what they do in spite of the facts.
In any case, I can discuss and work with people who choose to disagree in good faith. You are incapable of holding a discourse that involves a respectful exchange of ideas. As such, I submit to you that you are far closer to that white supremacist than I am.
I definitely agree, but many people will think that just because scientists think a certain way then it is proof. There are lots of scientists who aren't "religous" but don't espouse evolution, either. My point is that lay people take it at face value and don't care to look under the hood.
I respond to comments with what I genuinely believe, and you respond by attacking me personally? You can definitely think what I said is crap, but just because you do doesn't make it so.
Maybe I'm not as uneducated as you seem to think, pal, and I shake my head at the idiocy you spout.
Wow. Such vehemence. It's amazing how defensive people can get when you point out the legitimate problems with what they believe. But I want you to know that I don't take it personally - if you opened your mind up to the possibility that so called "accepted science" is wrong, then you might have to change your life.
For your information, I did read the article, and I have read plenty on the subject. I actually do know something. For your information, there are lots of scientists out there who deny evolution and aren't Christians.
And you know what else? I'm capable of holding a conversation without degenerating into anger and personal attacks. You should consider being respectful, and maybe then we can have dialog.
A crack team of researchers make something happen, and the evolutionists clamor about how this is proof evolution exists! Pure crap. First of all, it didn't happen on it's own - the bacteria the had help of scientists. Sort of sounds like "intelligent design," if you ask me.
Second of all, and much more importantly, anyone who espouses creation and has really read up on it, will allow for reproduction "within kinds." What that basically means is that you take a collie and a beagle, you get something somewhere in between, but it's still a dog, just like these bacteria are still bacteria.
Furthermore, the creationist expects change. Breaking that down, God made a perfect creation, then something happened. On the spiritual side, sin entered in and brought death. The related physical manifestation is that the creation was corrupted by mutation. If the Universe is a closed system - as the evolutionist must conclude - then evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, which states "The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium." This is exactly what the creationist believes - that the universe has been acted upon by outside forces and change happens inside - call it mutation.
I wish everyone could be a lot less dogmatic. The truth of the matter is that neither creation nor evolution represent valid theories, because, claim what scientist might, neither is observable nor testable. Don't kid yourselves, folks, evolutionists have just as much faith in evolution as creationists do in creation.
And you know what else, there's room enough for everyone to have a belief; don't be so righteously indignant, you insesitive clods!
Why would a burned DVD stop working? I thought a laser etched marks onto aluminum... do these wear out? I have a serious investment in burned DVD's, and I'd love to get my hands on TB sized medium!
The so-called "fundies" have one undeniable fact in their favor: the cells in that petri dish have DNA distinct from the donor mother and father. We can choose to ignore this if we like, but that won't make the reality any different. Those cell have a distinct DNA from the theorethical moment of conception, and that is precisely why people far out on the right believe a collection of cells is a person. We can try to impose artificial constraints on what makes people people - like viability, ability to feel pain, self conciousness - but we still don't have legitimate arguments. Take viability - who among us would be viable long in a jungle or desert? Self conciousness is another no brainer; the Nazis absolutely believed "vegatables" should be exterminated - do we really want to uphold that?
We're wandering into really dangerous territory when we don't have resolution on this issues, and the experiments continue anyway. The term "hubris" comes to mind.
>>On one side we've got a bunch of scientists - who's philosophy espouses...
I think the important thing to note is that evolutionary scientists do in fact have a philosophy. Evolution isn't any more science than ID. You cannot dogmatically assert that either is true, because you cannot observer nor test either process.
For those of you who worry that they won't get to read MOL, rest assured the Truth is Out There. From his blog, which is currently slashdotted:
Rumors and rumors of rumors Posted by Wilson on September 9th, 2007 in the Robert Jordan's Blog category During Dragon Conn in Atlanta last week rumors flew about that my brother/cousin was gravely ill, wasn't eating and had in fact had "Last Rites" administered. I just got off the telephone with him and he's surrounded by laughing friends and relatives and is about to enjoy a shrimp-based bowl of gumbo. He got a chuckle out of news of his impending departure.
Go back and reread RJ's blog entries and you'll know exactly what is going on. Armed with those medical facts, if any of you have shared time with very ill relatives you'll know what person looked like and felt like during the ordeal. RJ looks and feels just like that. So, we're not taking any family photos at the moment.
Fact: He is ill, very ill. He has shared that with you in medical jargon. He has told you the prognosis of his physicians and told you that he plans to beat their predictions. I pray that he will. But should it not be in the cards, he'll manage that phase of his life as he has every step he has taken thus far. So, should you hear another "rumor" it's just that. Until you hear it from RJ, Harriet or from me, it's just a rumor.
Fact: He's told you that his appetite comes and goes. It does. He's taking a handful of medications everyday to help him in the fight. Unfortunately some of them have adverse affects on the appetite. Pretty much like a kid in that regard right now. He eats when he feels up to it, and says "No Thanks!" when he doesn't. When I visited a couple of weeks back he had a hankering for Cream of Mushroom soup served with rice and a dash of tabasco. RJ and Harriet were busy in the parlor, so I whipped up the soup. He told me it was good, but not as good as when Harriet prepares it. Duh!?!?
Fact: The deacon from his church visits their home for weekly worship services and to bring communion. RJ doesn't feel up to sitting on two hundred year old wooden pews for an hour. Painful even for someone in the peak of health, which you know RJ is not. These visits are to share communion, which is a weekly (at least) part of RJ and Harriet's lives. Same goes for Janet and me. When RJ is physically stronger, he'll be back on the hard pews. I hope that whatever your faith that you are able to "Commune" with God often.
Bottom line guys, he's been completely forthcoming with you from the very beginning of this ordeal. He intends to continue that dialog. When he and I spoke a few minutes ago, I asked if he wanted to end this rumor or for me to do it? I then reminded him that the last time he wrote you he was feeling as he put it "a bit viperish" and that his posting had kicked over a huge ant hill. He allowed that perhaps I should write you guys this time. Calmer heads and all.
Keep the prayer lines open please. He's a stubborn old cuss but welcomes, appreciates, yes even needs your collective petitions to our God. I'll be seeing RJ and Harriet in a week and will give them a hug and an "I Love You" from each and every one of you.
Thanks for caring.
Peace be with each of you,
Wilson Brother/Cousin 4th of 3
Epilog: Yes he is continuing to work through all of this medical calamity. MOL is going into the word processor and onto audio tapes almost daily. Not every day mind you, because the medical fight takes first priority. But, he told you he'd finish and he will. Fact is that it has been finished in his head for years. During a recent family sit around, he became the Gleeman and told the bones of it ALL to Harriet and me. You read that right, I did say ALL. Don't ask, ain't telling. Two and a half hours of story telling by the Creator himself went by in the twinkling of an eye. Truly magical. All I can say is WOW! Best stuff he's ever done. MOL is going to knock your socks off! That's a promise.
If ID is 'flawed' for attempting to introduce the supernatural to explain the tough parts, then evolution is 'flawed' for lack of credible evidence combined with the presence of contradictory evidence. If ID is pseudo-mystical, then evolution is non sequitor.
I have no problem pulling BOTH of them out of science class. If you look at the facts objectively, it cannot be said dogmatically that either one happened. Let's all just stop pretending that the evolution proponents aren't secular zealots and just teach what can be scientifically proven.
I'll tell you: the lawyers. Maybe we wouldn't be in this situation if the poor, starving record companies hadn't kept the prices of CDs high. Ford Fairlane said it best: "Those artist really take a bite".
Are you serious? Do you have nothing better to do than to make trouble? Please tell the women you represent to concentrate on sharpening their skills. People in business do not care if someone is male or female - they just want the job done.
Slashdot Mirror
You're amazing! The depth of your close mindedness is profound and unwavering. My world view allows us to co-exist, while yours is very separatist.
I am familiar with the facts on both sides of the argument, and my interpretation of their implications is where we truly differ. Every fact I know of in "support of evolution" supports what I believe - and I promise you - if it were otherwise, I would change what I believe. My agenda in this argument is to be as honest as I can be; if it were otherwise, I wouldn't sleep at night. I just wouldn't ever tolerate the dishonesty you claim that I possess. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is my observation that evolutionists believe what they do in spite of the facts.
In any case, I can discuss and work with people who choose to disagree in good faith. You are incapable of holding a discourse that involves a respectful exchange of ideas. As such, I submit to you that you are far closer to that white supremacist than I am.
Fare well.
I definitely agree, but many people will think that just because scientists think a certain way then it is proof. There are lots of scientists who aren't "religous" but don't espouse evolution, either. My point is that lay people take it at face value and don't care to look under the hood.
Cheers
I respond to comments with what I genuinely believe, and you respond by attacking me personally? You can definitely think what I said is crap, but just because you do doesn't make it so.
Maybe I'm not as uneducated as you seem to think, pal, and I shake my head at the idiocy you spout.
Cheers
Wow. Such vehemence. It's amazing how defensive people can get when you point out the legitimate problems with what they believe. But I want you to know that I don't take it personally - if you opened your mind up to the possibility that so called "accepted science" is wrong, then you might have to change your life.
For your information, I did read the article, and I have read plenty on the subject. I actually do know something. For your information, there are lots of scientists out there who deny evolution and aren't Christians.
And you know what else? I'm capable of holding a conversation without degenerating into anger and personal attacks. You should consider being respectful, and maybe then we can have dialog.
Cheers
A crack team of researchers make something happen, and the evolutionists clamor about how this is proof evolution exists! Pure crap. First of all, it didn't happen on it's own - the bacteria the had help of scientists. Sort of sounds like "intelligent design," if you ask me.
Second of all, and much more importantly, anyone who espouses creation and has really read up on it, will allow for reproduction "within kinds." What that basically means is that you take a collie and a beagle, you get something somewhere in between, but it's still a dog, just like these bacteria are still bacteria.
Furthermore, the creationist expects change. Breaking that down, God made a perfect creation, then something happened. On the spiritual side, sin entered in and brought death. The related physical manifestation is that the creation was corrupted by mutation. If the Universe is a closed system - as the evolutionist must conclude - then evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, which states "The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium." This is exactly what the creationist believes - that the universe has been acted upon by outside forces and change happens inside - call it mutation.
I wish everyone could be a lot less dogmatic. The truth of the matter is that neither creation nor evolution represent valid theories, because, claim what scientist might, neither is observable nor testable. Don't kid yourselves, folks, evolutionists have just as much faith in evolution as creationists do in creation.
And you know what else, there's room enough for everyone to have a belief; don't be so righteously indignant, you insesitive clods!
Man, we're never gonna get anywhere if you keep bottling your feelings like this...
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that! See you on the floor...
Why would a burned DVD stop working? I thought a laser etched marks onto aluminum... do these wear out? I have a serious investment in burned DVD's, and I'd love to get my hands on TB sized medium!
Coming soon, "Grandparents forever" ...
Wrong! They're not computers, they're my flock.
The so-called "fundies" have one undeniable fact in their favor: the cells in that petri dish have DNA distinct from the donor mother and father. We can choose to ignore this if we like, but that won't make the reality any different. Those cell have a distinct DNA from the theorethical moment of conception, and that is precisely why people far out on the right believe a collection of cells is a person. We can try to impose artificial constraints on what makes people people - like viability, ability to feel pain, self conciousness - but we still don't have legitimate arguments. Take viability - who among us would be viable long in a jungle or desert? Self conciousness is another no brainer; the Nazis absolutely believed "vegatables" should be exterminated - do we really want to uphold that? We're wandering into really dangerous territory when we don't have resolution on this issues, and the experiments continue anyway. The term "hubris" comes to mind.
I wouldn't have agreed to this without your reasoning, but you've won me over.
What vegans taste like?
>>On one side we've got a bunch of scientists - who's philosophy espouses ...
I think the important thing to note is that evolutionary scientists do in fact have a philosophy. Evolution isn't any more science than ID. You cannot dogmatically assert that either is true, because you cannot observer nor test either process.
Outsmart those silly government hacks! http://www.photoblocker.com/
Nice! Thanks!
http://farcefoundation.blogspot.com/
If ID is 'flawed' for attempting to introduce the supernatural to explain the tough parts, then evolution is 'flawed' for lack of credible evidence combined with the presence of contradictory evidence. If ID is pseudo-mystical, then evolution is non sequitor.
I have no problem pulling BOTH of them out of science class. If you look at the facts objectively, it cannot be said dogmatically that either one happened. Let's all just stop pretending that the evolution proponents aren't secular zealots and just teach what can be scientifically proven.
I'll tell you: the lawyers. Maybe we wouldn't be in this situation if the poor, starving record companies hadn't kept the prices of CDs high. Ford Fairlane said it best: "Those artist really take a bite".
Are you serious? Do you have nothing better to do than to make trouble? Please tell the women you represent to concentrate on sharpening their skills. People in business do not care if someone is male or female - they just want the job done.