That's an intelligent response and hopefully I can give an intelligent rebuttal (sp?):
He did not say "so?" all the time and consider the US gov't "infallible". He even mention the "suspension of rights" is not something he (or anyone else here in the US) agrees with. Particularly, my bigggest annoyances are the military tribunals (for citizen/non-citizen "enemy combatants") are a bullshit way to circumvent judicial checks and denying due process. Also, I have a huge problem with detaining combatants without respect to their rights. We also want Iraq to surrender to complete weapons inspections instead of laser bombing their installations and sending more young people to meddle with that completely fucked area of the world Not to mention this all stems from the dynamic duo of Dubbya and Ashcroft being appointed to their respective offices.
Obviously, I don't want my rights trampled on...I WAS MAKING THE POINT that the name of an agency being "scary" is not a valid reason to distrust it...it's practices are. And on that note I would like to sa..wri...type that I don't think its a good idea for the govt't to have our lives on a card. If they could just improve upon a normal, old ID card simply to replace a license/passport/SS card would be nice.
Over n out.
Would it have been clearer for the nazis to name their organization "Jew-killing Security Office"? Organizations with godd or bad intentions cannot possibly have a name that no one will see as ominous. Well, maybe if you named it the "Shiny, Happy People Organization". Nah that sounds really fucked...
Actually, you are wrong as some of the standard library such as the System namespace and anything encompassing namespaces are included in that Standard Library section (ecma-334, p 375).
And that's more than JAva's framework API is standardized (here 'standard' is used loosely as both technologies do/will have fluctuating APIs).
Oops, sorry you appear to be correct, from what I can see. The point is that the library interfacce is 'standard' (even JDK has many depreciated namespaces, classes, & members). And Winforms or anything else can be supported by any underlying technology that the runtime chooses.
Either you choose to target Mono or.NET...problem is that the classes are almost certainly going to require VS.Net
Perhaps, VS.NET might be required as far as the instrcutor explaining, say, how to add a web reference (and VS automatically creates a 'proxy' class that marshalls the web service calls). And the student can very well just dwnld the framework SDK and textpad and add those in manually, but it would be more difficult.
For example, when I was taking an Internet programming class (we use Java:), the instructor explained everything by doing it through the Borland JBuilder ide, but up until the middle of the semester I was happy to use UltraEdit for all my work because I didn't feel like JB abstracting details from me (which is what good IDE should do, like VS). But programmers should always know what is going on behind the scenes when they switch from Debug to Release versions, for example.
I currently work with Python with a bit C mixed in
That's why.NET is so cool. At the expense at being bad to interpret (but fast when JITted), the CLI was designed for many languages to be compiled into a common language and can therefore share libraries written in other languages without having a major rewrite go on.
I hope Mono suceeds and.NET becomes a great cross-platform technology right along side Java (meanwhile sun will come out with Java 1.5 or whatever, to clear any remaining issues) and we could choose either one according to taste, not having to worry about porting this and that.
Ultimately, the university decided if they wanted support from MS in exchange for using their technology, not MS. They have a but-load of cash and they can spend it however they want to tempt universities to use C# as their official dept language.
WinForms is standard (besides its unfortunate name) but WinForms and ADO are the only things not submitted to ECMA as open (source i guess). However they are still part of the standard and can be implemented however the runtime wants (framework and mono is implementing it with gtk).
Yes, I know about Mono, and I know about SharpDevelop. And if the University of Waterloo allowed you to hand in assignments that targetted Mono then I would not complain.
What are the chances of that happening?
Let's clear one thing up: one does not "target" mono or MS's implementation of the CLI spec and framework. They are one in the same. It is a standard just like JVM bytecode and it's libraries (JDK). Some are going to say "HA! But MS will let it catch on and then 'change' it and pull the rug out from under Mono and friends" -- that should not happen since the C# lang and CLI is a public standard approved by ECMA (Java isn't, BTW) and it is mere speculation which is beyond the scope of this argument.
SharpDevelop is cool. Mono is coming up quickly and should hopefully be the cross-platform, GPL'd, free implementation of.NET.
And if it's not and I can't run the same.NET executable on *N?X or *BSD then I will go back to Java, simple as that.
Sure they do. Microsoft has been convicted of this very sort of behavior
Let me elaborate: saying MS is a monopoly is not an argument on whether a technology "has any merit", which is what parent stated in reponse to me asking what the difference was if a university went with C# or Java.
Whether MS is a monopoly or not is irrelevant on whether I should feed their monopoly by subscribing to their better (IMO) technology.
You just repeated what the other fellow said. BTE, before anyone complains with the other typical "argument"; no I am not a MS employee.
One point has nothing to do with the other point made. In a sad way you worked against your point, saying students shouldn't use a technology that is put out by a company that controls a huge portion of the industry.
not interested in paying money for Microsoft's tools
Oh yeah, and the.NET FW is free. VS is the thing you pay for but you don't need it and there are open source replacements such as sharpdevelop (google it).
Dont let you blind hatred of MS and its amoral tactics shun you from, IMHO, a better platform to develop on.
Correct, but signed certs certify that the public key contained within is actually the public key of that trustworthy organization (and not maliciuos Bob) and can therefore be 'safely' used to encrypt traffic upstream.
Also, versign is but one of several certificate authorities.
Obviously if you certificate to be 'stolen' you'd have to give up your private key, which is by definition private.
I may have misunderstood some your points somehow, though.
Yes, learning another language is mandated in public schools (at least in New York state). You have to realize that learning another language (and overwhelmingly almost all european languages!) isn't as important in N. America. In europe at trip to another country is like a trip to another state here. See what I mean?
Also, understand this: people who choose to put up banners with stuff, whether they genuinely mean to lift peoples spirits or, an you cynically point out, for America to sell itself, it is done only because of those people who run the site content want to do it. It's a free country and it's a free web! If I want to put up an American flag or a swastika or black panther or communist literature on my site I can.
I believe the grandparent was referring to the Internet (capital 'I') as opposed to the web which can be thought along the lines of a metaphor: the web:internet::mind:brain:) So, yes, this website says TB Lee "invented" the WWW. Says it right there on the web page that makes it sound as if he single-handedly crafted the web out of clay, so it must be true;-) The Web, as in the application-level invention HTTP and the family of "languages" in exchanges, are a technology that run on the internet which was pioneered by the United States DoD used to link universities, research centers, and gov't institutions, hence ARPANET. When it had later become too cumbersome to be entirely administrated/supported by the DoD it was taken over by a new 'backbone' built by the Nat'l Science Foundation (NSFNET) tailored to large-scale networking and evolved to what you use today.
However, pioneering initial research and implementation of a global switched net and SW protocols was done by DARPA and the NSF.
NET is very fast on Windows...My firm tried to call some C++ functions and Active X controls to test.NET, they abandoned it immediately after huuuuge performance hit. Hopefully, it'll be fast on Linux too:) The unmanaged code bit (calling COM interface wrapper.NET class) is most likely due to something called "cross-thread marshalling". This is when the runtime has to convert complex (non-blittable) data types for interop and, yes I agree, it can be dreadfully slow. But at least the option is there if you have a simple COM interface and don't want to rewrite yet. I just think of unmanaged code/interop as an extra feature.
Also, do you guys understand that cross-platform-compatibility is important especially in the last 2 years? Yes..NET will never be cross-platform-compatible. Ahh! I can't hear you!!/puts hans over ears/. It won't be with that attitude mister! j/k:) Seriously, why do you *not* want it to be the true cross-platform compatible solution? Why do think it won't be? That's the MAIN reason I got so interested in C#. If it doesn't deliver I'll move back to Java. Simple as that. But I hope it does.
Sun hasn't released anything to a standards body like ECMA, MS has. That's the most important point. Of course they still have ADO/winForms closed, though, so...
Transactions? Isn't Mono using GNOME-DB (modeled after ADO anyway) as the DB API behind ADO.NET? That's what I last read a few days ago.
I am seriously seing every firm here is trying to getting rid of Windows, and moving to Java. I think the recent increase in Java projects and interest in Java programmers proves my claim.
Hey, I see a lot of Java jobs but I see even more.NET ("6 mos. or more exp") jobs around. Especially in the financial sector for some reason. Although web-realted J2EE jobs are all over the place, I think.
Well I hope there is enough room for both.NET and Java and that.NET projects like Mono (and Rotor) *will* be cross-platform. On a side note: I tried my darndest to get mono compiled last night on my Slackware box with no luck:(, anyone with similar probs?
Yeah, next thing you'll know she'll be handing out her own business cards, "networking" with the movers and shakers, and telling suits to "think outside the box".
Slashdot Mirror
That's an intelligent response and hopefully I can give an intelligent rebuttal (sp?):
He did not say "so?" all the time and consider the US gov't "infallible". He even mention the "suspension of rights" is not something he (or anyone else here in the US) agrees with.
Particularly, my bigggest annoyances are the military tribunals (for citizen/non-citizen "enemy combatants") are a bullshit way to circumvent judicial checks and denying due process.
Also, I have a huge problem with detaining combatants without respect to their rights.
We also want Iraq to surrender to complete weapons inspections instead of laser bombing their installations and sending more young people to meddle with that completely fucked area of the world
Not to mention this all stems from the dynamic duo of Dubbya and Ashcroft being appointed to their respective offices.
Obviously, I don't want my rights trampled on...I WAS MAKING THE POINT that the name of an agency being "scary" is not a valid reason to distrust it...it's practices are.
And on that note I would like to sa..wri...type that I don't think its a good idea for the govt't to have our lives on a card. If they could just improve upon a normal, old ID card simply to replace a license/passport/SS card would be nice.
Over n out.
Would it have been clearer for the nazis to name their organization "Jew-killing Security Office"? Organizations with godd or bad intentions cannot possibly have a name that no one will see as ominous.
Well, maybe if you named it the "Shiny, Happy People Organization". Nah that sounds really fucked...
No part of the .NET framework has been submitted
Actually, you are wrong as some of the standard library such as the System namespace and anything encompassing namespaces are included in that Standard Library section (ecma-334, p 375).
And that's more than JAva's framework API is standardized (here 'standard' is used loosely as both technologies do/will have fluctuating APIs).
Oops, sorry you appear to be correct, from what I can see. The point is that the library interfacce is 'standard' (even JDK has many depreciated namespaces, classes, & members). And Winforms or anything else can be supported by any underlying technology that the runtime chooses.
Either you choose to target Mono or .NET...problem is that the classes are almost certainly going to require VS.Net
:), the instructor explained everything by doing it through the Borland JBuilder ide, but up until the middle of the semester I was happy to use UltraEdit for all my work because I didn't feel like JB abstracting details from me (which is what good IDE should do, like VS). But programmers should always know what is going on behind the scenes when they switch from Debug to Release versions, for example.
.NET is so cool. At the expense at being bad to interpret (but fast when JITted), the CLI was designed for many languages to be compiled into a common language and can therefore share libraries written in other languages without having a major rewrite go on.
.NET becomes a great cross-platform technology right along side Java (meanwhile sun will come out with Java 1.5 or whatever, to clear any remaining issues) and we could choose either one according to taste, not having to worry about porting this and that.
Perhaps, VS.NET might be required as far as the instrcutor explaining, say, how to add a web reference (and VS automatically creates a 'proxy' class that marshalls the web service calls). And the student can very well just dwnld the framework SDK and textpad and add those in manually, but it would be more difficult.
For example, when I was taking an Internet programming class (we use Java
I currently work with Python with a bit C mixed in
That's why
I hope Mono suceeds and
Ultimately, the university decided if they wanted support from MS in exchange for using their technology, not MS. They have a but-load of cash and they can spend it however they want to tempt universities to use C# as their official dept language.
WinForms is standard (besides its unfortunate name) but WinForms and ADO are the only things not submitted to ECMA as open (source i guess). However they are still part of the standard and can be implemented however the runtime wants (framework and mono is implementing it with gtk).
Yes, I know about Mono, and I know about SharpDevelop. And if the University of Waterloo allowed you to hand in assignments that targetted Mono then I would not complain. What are the chances of that happening?
.NET.
.NET executable on *N?X or *BSD then I will go back to Java, simple as that.
Let's clear one thing up: one does not "target" mono or MS's implementation of the CLI spec and framework. They are one in the same. It is a standard just like JVM bytecode and it's libraries (JDK). Some are going to say "HA! But MS will let it catch on and then 'change' it and pull the rug out from under Mono and friends" -- that should not happen since the C# lang and CLI is a public standard approved by ECMA (Java isn't, BTW) and it is mere speculation which is beyond the scope of this argument.
SharpDevelop is cool. Mono is coming up quickly and should hopefully be the cross-platform, GPL'd, free implementation of
And if it's not and I can't run the same
Sure they do. Microsoft has been convicted of this very sort of behavior
Let me elaborate: saying MS is a monopoly is not an argument on whether a technology "has any merit", which is what parent stated in reponse to me asking what the difference was if a university went with C# or Java.
Whether MS is a monopoly or not is irrelevant on whether I should feed their monopoly by subscribing to their better (IMO) technology.
You just repeated what the other fellow said. BTE, before anyone complains with the other typical "argument"; no I am not a MS employee.
One point has nothing to do with the other point made. In a sad way you worked against your point, saying students shouldn't use a technology that is put out by a company that controls a huge portion of the industry.
not interested in paying money for Microsoft's tools
.NET FW is free. VS is the thing you pay for but you don't need it and there are open source replacements such as sharpdevelop (google it).
Oh yeah, and the
Dont let you blind hatred of MS and its amoral tactics shun you from, IMHO, a better platform to develop on.
heard of mono?
Also, IL spec released to ECMA unlike Java. So, it is nt controlled by MS.
That's the difference.
IMHO, I consider it ultimately as the schools decision to move to C#, not Microsofts.
My university had to use Java for all programming, what's the difference?
Yeah, but i had to change it, you know, so it made sense in context.
dancinest, hehe, ok I totally dropped the ball on that one.
"Let's hear it for the Northern hemisphere, the most happenin' hemisphere in the world!..." -simpsons
It might be a lesson for you Americans...
BTW, Bioware is a Canadian company.
Correct, but signed certs certify that the public key contained within is actually the public key of that trustworthy organization (and not maliciuos Bob) and can therefore be 'safely' used to encrypt traffic upstream.
Also, versign is but one of several certificate authorities.
Obviously if you certificate to be 'stolen' you'd have to give up your private key, which is by definition private.
I may have misunderstood some your points somehow, though.
Yes, I killed them. I killed them all.
They didn't and you missed my point.
Yes, learning another language is mandated in public schools (at least in New York state). You have to realize that learning another language (and overwhelmingly almost all european languages!) isn't as important in N. America. In europe at trip to another country is like a trip to another state here. See what I mean?
Also, understand this: people who choose to put up banners with stuff, whether they genuinely mean to lift peoples spirits or, an you cynically point out, for America to sell itself, it is done only because of those people who run the site content want to do it. It's a free country and it's a free web! If I want to put up an American flag or a swastika or black panther or communist literature on my site I can.
Live and let live, as they say.
wow, that's insightful!
I believe the grandparent was referring to the Internet (capital 'I') as opposed to the web which can be thought along the lines of a metaphor: the web:internet::mind:brain :) ;-)
So, yes, this website says TB Lee "invented" the WWW. Says it right there on the web page that makes it sound as if he single-handedly crafted the web out of clay, so it must be true
The Web, as in the application-level invention HTTP and the family of "languages" in exchanges, are a technology that run on the internet which was pioneered by the United States DoD used to link universities, research centers, and gov't institutions, hence ARPANET. When it had later become too cumbersome to be entirely administrated/supported by the DoD it was taken over by a new 'backbone' built by the Nat'l Science Foundation (NSFNET) tailored to large-scale networking and evolved to what you use today.
However, pioneering initial research and implementation of a global switched net and SW protocols was done by DARPA and the NSF.
I honestly belive if the RIAA wanted to make it a death penalty for breaking the DMCA they would have succeeded.
i refuse to believe that you honestly believe that
NET is very fast on Windows...My firm tried to call some C++ functions and Active X controls to test .NET, they abandoned it immediately after huuuuge performance hit. :) .NET class) is most likely due to something called "cross-thread marshalling". This is when the runtime has to convert complex (non-blittable) data types for interop and, yes I agree, it can be dreadfully slow. But at least the option is there if you have a simple COM interface and don't want to rewrite yet. I just think of unmanaged code/interop as an extra feature.
/puts hans over ears/. It won't be with that attitude mister! j/k:)
.NET ("6 mos. or more exp") jobs around. Especially in the financial sector for some reason. Although web-realted J2EE jobs are all over the place, I think.
.NET and Java and that .NET projects like Mono (and Rotor) *will* be cross-platform. :(, anyone with similar probs?
Hopefully, it'll be fast on Linux too
The unmanaged code bit (calling COM interface wrapper
Also, do you guys understand that cross-platform-compatibility is important especially in the last 2 years?
Yes..NET will never be cross-platform-compatible.
Ahh! I can't hear you!!
Seriously, why do you *not* want it to be the true cross-platform compatible solution? Why do think it won't be? That's the MAIN reason I got so interested in C#. If it doesn't deliver I'll move back to Java. Simple as that. But I hope it does.
Sun hasn't released anything to a standards body like ECMA, MS has. That's the most important point. Of course they still have ADO/winForms closed, though, so...
Transactions? Isn't Mono using GNOME-DB (modeled after ADO anyway) as the DB API behind ADO.NET? That's what I last read a few days ago.
I am seriously seing every firm here is trying to getting rid of Windows, and moving to Java. I think the recent increase in Java projects and interest in Java programmers proves my claim. Hey, I see a lot of Java jobs but I see even more
Well I hope there is enough room for both
On a side note: I tried my darndest to get mono compiled last night on my Slackware box with no luck
Yeah, next thing you'll know she'll be handing out her own business cards, "networking" with the movers and shakers, and telling suits to "think outside the box".