Agreed! However I don't think they're opening up *all* their file formats/protocols since some have IP issues. But I don't think MSN IM or SMB protocol has any terribly earth-shattering IP invested in it;-) It would be cool if they helped out mono. I don't think anyone who pays for software and espoecially uses free SW would like palladium, but unfortunately it might crush everything else since Joe Blow doesn;t give a shit about being taken advantage of by MS and not having a choice.
Yes,.NET needs time to mature. Yes, Java is mature but Sun has not released control of it to anyone and has done barely anything with it when they could've premptively lynched.NET before it came out. But they didn't and it did. Yes,.NET is very fast on windows Mono is implementing W.Forms and ADO with the same interface even if MS didn't release their code and the IL spec is OPEN and any changes are open as well (hoping). Actually what I am seeing is everyone moving to.NET, specifically C# and especially in the financial sector. IMHO, the "beauty" (/. posters are so melodramatic:) is that you have an open standard (pple going to say "ohh but M$ is going to change this...kill that..", lets not speculate -- I'm in the "right-now") and a VERY fast moving mono GPL project. The bottom line, thought: If you want to use Java, by all means keep using Java. I'll use both:) Who cares? To each his own, and all that shit. BTW, web services are really cool. (trust me, i viewed them with the same skepticism as everyone else, until I tried them:D
Yes, it sounds a bit selfish but, its sad that we can never hear a story from Zaphod, Arthur Dent, or that poor reincarnated creature thingy that Arthur kept on killing in every incarnation:) I've seen writers try to imitate his style but rarely get the same laugh. "Sorry For The Inconvienice".
Well he's certainly one of the most imaginative, witty and funny sci-fi writers in many ppls opinion. The hitchikers guide isn't for everyone, I guess.
I agree with most of your points. However, I think it was a Slashback topic posted not to long ago recanting the previous post on MS being directly involved in a.net module for Apache, which they weren't.
That excerpt was retarded, the KGB mainframe calling the protagonist and a bunch of bloat talking about genetic algorithms, etc, etc. Whew, I'll stick with Neal Stephenson...
RTF paper. Reading is an important gift, use it. Oh yeah, "designed for client [and!] web service applications". It was a misspelling, but you already covered that in your other response. My rant made little sense, hmmmmm. Pot. Kettle. Black. For the last time, I said the "technical innovation" i am trying to pound through *your* thick head is that one of its design goals were to favor JIT compiling at the expense of interpretation. OK? It is also developed for a target for mulitple languages (yes, I know Java has many languages that compile to JVM). Now, to me, this would explain why those benchmarks (ohh, sorry microbenchmarks -- you mean the ones by IBM too??) always show C# jitted code to have a nice edge on Java's jitted code. I could not read the whole paper (obviously) and know every complex technical design issue that went into making the CLI so adaptable to being "jitted" at the expense of bad for interpretation (one reson is "virtual" functions for adding stack operands, unaware of type which is part of the data itself). You mention you can offer benchmarks that support you, why haven't you posted them? Hmmm? At least you would have put forth something that just your witty responses (*pause* ad hominem) you would have at least had respect instead of calling someone "full of shit". BTW, I checked most of your other responses that you have posted toward people that are equally rude and provide no other purpose other than to chastise someone. That "other" persons post should have been directed at you...
So what you're saying is you've never misspelled anything or inadvertently mangled grammer. Also, "script-kiddie"?? Wow, amazing how fools widen the scope of its meaning -- so out of context. I wonder if you see the ridiculous irony that you point out the "argumentum ad hominem" logical fallacy and then post these comments. Contribute something to the argument (or what's left of it) or just don't post. I can already tell that you have nothing to contribute, but will let you get the last word if it lets you sleep.
Balmer's a big fella. It'd be funny if he went into a Chris Farley-like rage and tried to suplex the twiggy lawyers that brought this to them. Bill would just be sitting back in the large leather chair with a white persian cat, penting his fingers together like Mr Burns, watching the carnage ensue. Maybe this is how MS bullies all the lawyers from companies that fight against them:P
here is one paper but not the original one i had, interesting comparison. BTW, to clarify:.NET CLR is also stack-based but a bit different in that it seems to have been entirely design for JIT compiling at the expense of interpretation. Also, designed for multiple lang suppor, which is a cool feature. Unfortunately Java could have been revised faster but Sun sat on it's hands for too long and unfortunately MS came along and made it better. Hopefully since it is open MS won't be able to "break compatibility" too much and projects the dotgnum and Mono will be useable so that i can run programs on either Linux or Windows transparetly. That would be the ultimate goal...
Hi again, Once again, those links were benchmarks in various areas where java is competing with.NET in general (as per my original post) so i posted a link on traffic load handling and scalability with comparisons to J2EE, an IO benchmark, and a computational benchmark (for calculating digits of pi) WITH THE HOTSPOT JIT vs THE C# JIT...did you even read these "micro benchmarks"? I almost fell on the floor laughing when I read you wrote that but didn't even acknowledge their results. When something doesn't say what you want it to, you just dismiss it. I guess you'll dismiss me as working for MS next:D. You're more predicatable than sunrise. So therefore giving extra info that strengthened my other points does not make me look stupid as you so eloquently put it. IMPORTANT: Like i said, the design of the bytecode (which is open) is designed for client, web service applications as opposed to the embeded architecture as is the jvm bytecode AFAIK. Also, like i said already, the CLR/language features make it easier to compile from IL to native such as inline stack allocation types (see boxing types) where as everything in java in a reference type, operator overloading (operators for that matter), delegates, and property members to name a few. Also, again remember that is rubbed your nose in these facts already and told you why the CLR lends itself to better JIT compiling than Java does. Again, JVM bytecode is stack-based. I've programmed for straight JVM as well as Java, JSP, servlets, JavaBeans, JSP tags, ASP (& ADO), C#, and many of these technologies and am pretty indiscriminant although you seem to want to turn in into an "us versus them" *argument*. Funny how you acuse (and continue to do it) ppl of being full of sh!t (hint: not a valid argument -- ad nauseum). It's ok, I know you're feeling manly behind your anonymity, like many jerks on/. So, in light of this, i do not declare you full of shit, but just an ignorant person who refuses to make a point or carry on an intelligent conversation w/o resorting to soap opera-like drama, name-calling, whining, and complaining about lack of references without presenting any of their own. Also, about a white paper, i actually had a friend show me the.NET technical paper awhile ago, and will post in if I can find it (hopefully).
- DMCA has nothing to do with freedom of speech -- it's just a buzz word surrounding copyright stuff that is trying to protect honest ppls work from being ripped off. I can buy a game and clone it for "backup" purposes, i guess but that has nothign to do with freedom if i can or can't. So you're saying the netherland does not enforce anyones copyrights, etc.? That sucks for artists, programmers, and writers. - i agree about recreational drugs. i heard some studies that cigarettes are more addictive that heroine but they are legal and pot is proabbly not as addictive but probably just as bad for you;-). Alcohol is legal here, that's also recreational. Extasy is dangerous, so is acid, etc. Really pots is the only recreational drug not legal. - You can put up a website of the president getting ass-fscked by a rhino and all the racist gibberish you want: freedom of speech. but running up to the president of any country will get you a bullet in the head... - You have the freedom to take a shit on the flag over here if you want. However, ppl also have the right to call you an asshole on the street for doing it. - your patriot act link in broken but we have freedom in worship besides those stupid inconsistent tidbits in our pledge or printed on our currency... - ? utility worker spies...i'll have to get back to you on that one:) - you DONT HAVE TO DECLARE THE PLEDGE OF allegiance in school...i still think the "under god" violates seperation of church and state, but any discussion gets thwamped with cries of "we have bigger things to worry about these days" reaction. hahaha...ridiculous. - drinking age, nude sunbathing are against the law but they aren't as effectively enforced just as your pot "epidemic". Racial profiling and police beating is not endorsed by the US govt. Don't know where you heard otherwise. I do agree the lobbying and campaign finance reform are important issues that should be addressed to cut down on corruption and more extremem form of copyright and digital media control. You have the myth that Americans are stupid and ignorant, and dopely watch TV instead of our officials and politicians while much the opposite is indeed true! Funny how everyone else always thinks they are the only ones who "see the truth". Don't substitution one generalization for another. But this TRUE freedom comes at a cost: politicians can get assasinated easier Yikes, what does this have to do with freedom unless you are a gun-nut who equales freedom with getting a firearm without a background check or being able to carry it on them where ever they go. We can easily even email our congressman/woman here (with PGP of course:) Kind regards
Though you've got a rather nasty attitude to a person expressing a simple opinion, here are some benchmarks of.NET vs J2EE architecture here and an interesting IO benchmark here this computation benchmark is interesting (java w/ hotspot jitter here is a simplified benchmark with integer and fp operations Also, to my understanding, the.NET IL is not stack based as is the JVM which Sun had said is not designed for speed but for simple architectures in embeded designs. One of the advantages over Java is that C# allows inline allocation (as opposed to heap allocation) for simple structs or primitives. Try not to use foul language, it just makes you look reactionary and foolish. Then again all these benchmarks could be fabricated but since i have had experience with C# development and Java (w/ AWT and swing) 1.3, I noticed the speed difference right away...
well i haven't used VS for css or html. i prefer a straight up text editor like UE32 or textpad:) so i can't comment on that. i agree with incomplete framework documentation anyway, but it's context-sensitive help if unbelievable useful not to mention popup members list and autocomplete.. never had any problems with the editor...and i'm bias b/c i really like C#'s syntax...
Sure we'll commit mass genocide, use chemical weapons, and firebomb/nuke hundreds of thousands of civilians, but we wont bring it apon ourselves, many of us will continue to survive despite our worst efforts Agreed, people will survive, though this will just keep happening over and over again until we over do it someday. I don't think a mob mentality will ever go away anytime soon b/c like you said, it's in our instincts. Come to think of it, IIRC i've read that evolution occurs in spurts rather than gradually, and small cataclysms actually are the reason. Punctuated theory of evolution if memory serves. Maybe we've been observed and avoided b/c of what goes on down here and they're waiting for us to "grown up":) [we're just listed as "Mostly Harmless" right now:P] Funny, tho. You've got 6 billion people looking up at the sky saying how sad it would be if we were alone in the universe...
Well, i thought that one very popular opposition to that paradox was the hypothesis that maybe every civilization that has ever existed hasn't survived long enough to be so adventursome/imperialistic. Perhaps an overwhelming number of forms of life never even come close to becoming intelligent enough (no matter how long evolution has a crack at them:) to explore space. Of those tiny fraction maybe:
they have been wiped out by disease or astronomic cataclysm (sp?) which is very posssible for every civilization given the generous millions of years it took us to evolve (heck, its already happended once 65m yrs ago that could have almost wiped mammals out as well as prehistoric animals/plants)
they have caused their own demise.
The latter is probably the most likely of the two, as anyone looking around at the world today can attest to; you've got a bunch of crazies ready to kill other people in the name of [an invisible man] and plenty of ways to do it. Nations fighting for oil, riots, famine, poverty... Name yer poison: shall it be deadly biological agents, nukes, or world-wide war?:( Maybe we are just destined to destroy ourselves. And maybe that old twilight zone episode was right: people are the same throughout the universe.
Slashdot Mirror
Steve,
;-)
Agreed!
However I don't think they're opening up *all* their file formats/protocols since some have IP issues. But I don't think MSN IM or SMB protocol has any terribly earth-shattering IP invested in it
It would be cool if they helped out mono.
I don't think anyone who pays for software and espoecially uses free SW would like palladium, but unfortunately it might crush everything else since Joe Blow doesn;t give a shit about being taken advantage of by MS and not having a choice.
Yes, .NET needs time to mature. Yes, Java is mature but Sun has not released control of it to anyone and has done barely anything with it when they could've premptively lynched .NET before it came out. But they didn't and it did. .NET is very fast on windows .NET, specifically C# and especially in the financial sector. :) is that you have an open standard (pple going to say "ohh but M$ is going to change this...kill that..", lets not speculate -- I'm in the "right-now") and a VERY fast moving mono GPL project. :) Who cares? To each his own, and all that shit. :D
Yes,
Mono is implementing W.Forms and ADO with the same interface even if MS didn't release their code and the IL spec is OPEN and any changes are open as well (hoping).
Actually what I am seeing is everyone moving to
IMHO, the "beauty" (/. posters are so melodramatic
The bottom line, thought: If you want to use Java, by all means keep using Java. I'll use both
BTW, web services are really cool. (trust me, i viewed them with the same skepticism as everyone else, until I tried them
Didn't you know? All diabolical, evil genius' have one of these. Duh.
Anything I can do with a seat from a Metro?
Yes, it sounds a bit selfish but, its sad that we can never hear a story from Zaphod, Arthur Dent, or that poor reincarnated creature thingy that Arthur kept on killing in every incarnation :)
I've seen writers try to imitate his style but rarely get the same laugh.
"Sorry For The Inconvienice".
Well he's certainly one of the most imaginative, witty and funny sci-fi writers in many ppls opinion. The hitchikers guide isn't for everyone, I guess.
wow, who would have though marijuana users would have enough initiative to actually setup a site with content n' stuff :D
I agree with most of your points. However, I think it was a Slashback topic posted not to long ago recanting the previous post on MS being directly involved in a .net module for Apache, which they weren't.
That excerpt was retarded, the KGB mainframe calling the protagonist and a bunch of bloat talking about genetic algorithms, etc, etc. Whew, I'll stick with Neal Stephenson...
...just *claimed* that they had shut down the offending sight and just post a story with a link to it on /.
That sucker would be down in no time.
RTF paper. Reading is an important gift, use it.
Oh yeah, "designed for client [and!] web service applications". It was a misspelling, but you already covered that in your other response.
My rant made little sense, hmmmmm. Pot. Kettle. Black.
For the last time, I said the "technical innovation" i am trying to pound through *your* thick head is that one of its design goals were to favor JIT compiling at the expense of interpretation. OK? It is also developed for a target for mulitple languages (yes, I know Java has many languages that compile to JVM).
Now, to me, this would explain why those benchmarks (ohh, sorry microbenchmarks -- you mean the ones by IBM too??) always show C# jitted code to have a nice edge on Java's jitted code.
I could not read the whole paper (obviously) and know every complex technical design issue that went into making the CLI so adaptable to being "jitted" at the expense of bad for interpretation (one reson is "virtual" functions for adding stack operands, unaware of type which is part of the data itself).
You mention you can offer benchmarks that support you, why haven't you posted them? Hmmm? At least you would have put forth something that just your witty responses (*pause* ad hominem) you would have at least had respect instead of calling someone "full of shit". BTW, I checked most of your other responses that you have posted toward people that are equally rude and provide no other purpose other than to chastise someone. That "other" persons post should have been directed at you...
So what you're saying is you've never misspelled anything or inadvertently mangled grammer.
Also, "script-kiddie"?? Wow, amazing how fools widen the scope of its meaning -- so out of context.
I wonder if you see the ridiculous irony that you point out the "argumentum ad hominem" logical fallacy and then post these comments.
Contribute something to the argument (or what's left of it) or just don't post. I can already tell that you have nothing to contribute, but will let you get the last word if it lets you sleep.
Balmer's a big fella. It'd be funny if he went into a Chris Farley-like rage and tried to suplex the twiggy lawyers that brought this to them. Bill would just be sitting back in the large leather chair with a white persian cat, penting his fingers together like Mr Burns, watching the carnage ensue. :P
Maybe this is how MS bullies all the lawyers from companies that fight against them
here is one paper but not the original one i had, interesting comparison. BTW, to clarify: .NET CLR is also stack-based but a bit different in that it seems to have been entirely design for JIT compiling at the expense of interpretation. Also, designed for multiple lang suppor, which is a cool feature.
Unfortunately Java could have been revised faster but Sun sat on it's hands for too long and unfortunately MS came along and made it better. Hopefully since it is open MS won't be able to "break compatibility" too much and projects the dotgnum and Mono will be useable so that i can run programs on either Linux or Windows transparetly. That would be the ultimate goal...
Hi again, .NET in general (as per my original post) so i posted a link on traffic load handling and scalability with comparisons to J2EE, an IO benchmark, and a computational benchmark (for calculating digits of pi) WITH THE HOTSPOT JIT vs THE C# JIT...did you even read these "micro benchmarks"? I almost fell on the floor laughing when I read you wrote that but didn't even acknowledge their results. :D. /. So, in light of this, i do not declare you full of shit, but just an ignorant person who refuses to make a point or carry on an intelligent conversation w/o resorting to soap opera-like drama, name-calling, whining, and complaining about lack of references without presenting any of their own. .NET technical paper awhile ago, and will post in if I can find it (hopefully).
Once again, those links were benchmarks in various areas where java is competing with
When something doesn't say what you want it to, you just dismiss it. I guess you'll dismiss me as working for MS next
You're more predicatable than sunrise.
So therefore giving extra info that strengthened my other points does not make me look stupid as you so eloquently put it.
IMPORTANT: Like i said, the design of the bytecode (which is open) is designed for client, web service applications as opposed to the embeded architecture as is the jvm bytecode AFAIK. Also, like i said already, the CLR/language features make it easier to compile from IL to native such as inline stack allocation types (see boxing types) where as everything in java in a reference type, operator overloading (operators for that matter), delegates, and property members to name a few.
Also, again remember that is rubbed your nose in these facts already and told you why the CLR lends itself to better JIT compiling than Java does. Again, JVM bytecode is stack-based.
I've programmed for straight JVM as well as Java, JSP, servlets, JavaBeans, JSP tags, ASP (& ADO), C#, and many of these technologies and am pretty indiscriminant although you seem to want to turn in into an "us versus them" *argument*.
Funny how you acuse (and continue to do it) ppl of being full of sh!t (hint: not a valid argument -- ad nauseum). It's ok, I know you're feeling manly behind your anonymity, like many jerks on
Also, about a white paper, i actually had a friend show me the
- DMCA has nothing to do with freedom of speech -- it's just a buzz word surrounding copyright stuff that is trying to protect honest ppls work from being ripped off. I can buy a game and clone it for "backup" purposes, i guess but that has nothign to do with freedom if i can or can't. So you're saying the netherland does not enforce anyones copyrights, etc.? That sucks for artists, programmers, and writers. ;-). Alcohol is legal here, that's also recreational. Extasy is dangerous, so is acid, etc. Really pots is the only recreational drug not legal. :) :)
- i agree about recreational drugs. i heard some studies that cigarettes are more addictive that heroine but they are legal and pot is proabbly not as addictive but probably just as bad for you
- You can put up a website of the president getting ass-fscked by a rhino and all the racist gibberish you want: freedom of speech. but running up to the president of any country will get you a bullet in the head...
- You have the freedom to take a shit on the flag over here if you want. However, ppl also have the right to call you an asshole on the street for doing it.
- your patriot act link in broken but we have freedom in worship besides those stupid inconsistent tidbits in our pledge or printed on our currency...
- ? utility worker spies...i'll have to get back to you on that one
- you DONT HAVE TO DECLARE THE PLEDGE OF allegiance in school...i still think the "under god" violates seperation of church and state, but any discussion gets thwamped with cries of "we have bigger things to worry about these days" reaction. hahaha...ridiculous.
- drinking age, nude sunbathing are against the law but they aren't as effectively enforced just as your pot "epidemic". Racial profiling and police beating is not endorsed by the US govt. Don't know where you heard otherwise.
I do agree the lobbying and campaign finance reform are important issues that should be addressed to cut down on corruption and more extremem form of copyright and digital media control.
You have the myth that Americans are stupid and ignorant, and dopely watch TV instead of our officials and politicians while much the opposite is indeed true! Funny how everyone else always thinks they are the only ones who "see the truth".
Don't substitution one generalization for another.
But this TRUE freedom comes at a cost: politicians can get assasinated easier
Yikes, what does this have to do with freedom unless you are a gun-nut who equales freedom with getting a firearm without a background check or being able to carry it on them where ever they go.
We can easily even email our congressman/woman here (with PGP of course
Kind regards
Though you've got a rather nasty attitude to a person expressing a simple opinion, here are some benchmarks of .NET vs J2EE architecture here .NET IL is not stack based as is the JVM which Sun had said is not designed for speed but for simple architectures in embeded designs.
and an interesting IO benchmark here
this computation benchmark is interesting (java w/ hotspot jitter
here is a simplified benchmark with integer and fp operations
Also, to my understanding, the
One of the advantages over Java is that C# allows inline allocation (as opposed to heap allocation) for simple structs or primitives.
Try not to use foul language, it just makes you look reactionary and foolish.
Then again all these benchmarks could be fabricated but since i have had experience with C# development and Java (w/ AWT and swing) 1.3, I noticed the speed difference right away...
not true, you can't use some OO features from vb that would otherwise be available through managed c++ or c#
well i haven't used VS for css or html. i prefer a straight up text editor like UE32 or textpad :) so i can't comment on that.
i agree with incomplete framework documentation anyway, but it's context-sensitive help if unbelievable useful not to mention popup members list and autocomplete..
never had any problems with the editor...and i'm bias b/c i really like C#'s syntax...
echooooo, echoooooo
Sure we'll commit mass genocide, use chemical weapons, and firebomb/nuke hundreds of thousands of civilians, but we wont bring it apon ourselves, many of us will continue to survive despite our worst efforts :) [we're just listed as "Mostly Harmless" right now :P]
Agreed, people will survive, though this will just keep happening over and over again until we over do it someday. I don't think a mob mentality will ever go away anytime soon b/c like you said, it's in our instincts.
Come to think of it, IIRC i've read that evolution occurs in spurts rather than gradually, and small cataclysms actually are the reason. Punctuated theory of evolution if memory serves.
Maybe we've been observed and avoided b/c of what goes on down here and they're waiting for us to "grown up"
Funny, tho. You've got 6 billion people looking up at the sky saying how sad it would be if we were alone in the universe...
Perhaps an overwhelming number of forms of life never even come close to becoming intelligent enough (no matter how long evolution has a crack at them
Of those tiny fraction maybe:
- they have been wiped out by disease or astronomic cataclysm (sp?) which is very posssible for every civilization given the generous millions of years it took us to evolve (heck, its already happended once 65m yrs ago that could have almost wiped mammals out as well as prehistoric animals/plants)
- they have caused their own demise.
The latter is probably the most likely of the two, as anyone looking around at the world today can attest to; you've got a bunch of crazies ready to kill other people in the name of [an invisible man] and plenty of ways to do it. Nations fighting for oil, riots, famine, poverty...Name yer poison: shall it be deadly biological agents, nukes, or world-wide war?
Maybe we are just destined to destroy ourselves.
And maybe that old twilight zone episode was right: people are the same throughout the universe.
the electricity over IP rfc
damn, it was nice to know my block of spam was pure spiced ham instead of a compound (of entrails and hooves)...ah well