"SO/OO XML is not guaranteed to be a stable format. - Hell, if it would be so easy to have a stable format MS would've saved them and their customers a lot of trouble."
Well... To understand why MS has a real problem with their formats, you have to understand their formats. Since they don't SHARE that information, you can only speculate why this is.
Personally, I think it's because MS works so hard to obfusticate the efforts of others that it also has the net result of limiting their flexibility. Why else are their document sizes so much larger that SO/OOo?
Yes, the instal program is stupid. They know it, they're working on it.
What we do is install it by trickery. I assume here that you are using Windows 2000 or XP. First, I do a localized network install. Then from that directory, I install it as a user who will serve as my 'template' for that machine.
Once I get that template set up, I then copy that profile (using the profile copier under 'system'), to 'Default User'. This way, every user on that machine should get the standard setup.
DISADVANTAGE: If this computer is to be used in a lab, or by multiple users, keep in mind that one user can change the settings for EVERY user. So far, this hasn't been much of a problem, but it certainly is a possibility.
Sun is smart - they are going to do this the right way. They are working on programs for education. It may be that they will release something around the same time Office 11 comes out.
OpenOffice.org - the development platform for StarOffice is only at 1.0.1. It is stable (at least for us), but there are still a few issues to resolve. Not the least of which is a usable version for the Mac. This is probably part of the reason they are waiting as many schools do use Apple (although these are decreasing).
Our school jumped on the bandwagon while OpenOffice.org was still in beta. We completely converted to Open/StarOffice last year. I think that part of this push (when it happens), should also center around competition. It should go something like this:
"How many of your tax dollars go to your local schools? How much of that goes to Microsoft? You might be surprised..."
Offer StarOffice for cost of media, give OpenOffice.org to the students / parents on request and you've got a winner.
We support it at the school because Sun FUNDS OpenOffice.org's continued development. Nothing wrong with either version, but you do get a few extras with StarOffice - not to mention killer support.
Yep. No exaggeration there. We've had a few German students at our school. It is unpredictable what our boarding students will bring with them on their laptops.
Hell, it's half unpredictable what AMERICAN students use (Wordperfect, Works, Wordpad, etc.)
Look, I work at a school that has converted itself to Open/Staroffice. I just love the way some people assume that no one can change the way they do things anymore or that if they have to, there must be a financial reason behind it. If the past is any indication of the future - there's a hell of a lot more change coming.
Case in point: One of the arguments made against using Open/StarOffice here was this very thing - that everyone would have to learn something new. A few of the teachers were concerned about our conversion to Open/StarOffice; this was my basic response:
1) Yep. That's what we do - we learn new things here at school. You expect the students to learn new things. Well, once in a while, the teachers must adjust also.
2) This is hardly the first time (and probably won't be the last time) that we have changed office-type software. As I had only been at the school one year prior to this, I did some checking.
Before using Office 97, they were using 95. Before that, some were using Word for DOS, some Works. Before that, Wordperfect. Before that, XYwrite and Visicalc. Etc. Change is inevitable.
The big difference here is that there's a lot more in common between Open/StarOffice and MS Office than MS Office and say, the Wordperfect suite. Sometimes, I think that people that slam on the usability and 'retraining' costs, haven't bothered TRYING it themselves! It's not that hard folks, really.
3) Standardizing on Open/StarOffice lets us give a FREE copy of Openoffice.org to every student, every teacher, every parent (should they want it). Truly a win/win situation here! No more BS with students showing up with a paper they typed at home and not being able to open it at school.
4) Which teacher would like to give up his/her position to enable us to afford licensing for Office XP (yes, I was serious!)
For us. the REAL question was - can the replacement software do EVERYTHING the last one could - at least for what we use it for? For the teachers and students the answer was a definate 'yes'.
I won't even get into the biggest advantage of all. Being able to use a cross-platform office suite means having the ability to GO cross-platform at some future date. Whether we do or not will depend on Microsoft.
Of course Sun is trying to gain some market share. The way they've done it is certainly more fair than MS's bullying of vendors and producing crippled versions of Office (Works, anyone?)
The biggest difference here is that Sun has released the bulk of the code LGPL. Can't be revoked. End of story. What you get with OpenOffice.org is free and clear. That is, free as in freedom AND beer!
We might not be a university, but our school here in PA did it. We converted to Staroffice 6.0 for the teachers and lab computers. We also distribute Openoffice.org to all of the students. This is an important point, because as MS Office file formats become more and more fragmented (just wait until Office 11!), the need to unify on a single, usable format (like XML) becomes critical. While saving money on licenses is a bonus, the real savings for us is in the heartache of incompatible formats.
Anyone here care to guess how many different incompatible programs our students have on their computers? Not counting the various (and sometimes) incompatible variations on MS Office, you also have the abortion known as MS Works. Then there's Lotus, WordPerfect... Hell, even NOTEPAD! And don't get me started about the different versions used from country to country. We have students who attend here from all over the world.
We've been using Open/Staroffice now for well over a year and are not looking back anytime soon. There were some minor initial glitches, but this was due to our using the Openoffice.org betas. Star PP1 / Open 1.0.1 have been rock solid for us.
Chuck Hunnefield Technology Coordinator Linden Hall School for Girls
"They bought their tickets... They knew what they were getting into..."
...we should let Radgametools know how profitable it would be for them to code for Linux. After all, the alternative is that their products aren't used at all, -or- someone enevitably hacks together an OSS version of Miles and Bink. Surely they don't want that!
Send Radgametools an email and let them know that there's interest in seeing their products on our favorite platform.
I think there was a LOT more emphasis on stereo quality in the 70's and 80's than there is now for one basic reason - the music. That's not to say that there wasn't crap stereo equipment relative to the technology available. There was.
I'll probably be Trolled for this but the fact is, most fans of Rap don't really demand much more than a good subwoofer. And just how many fans of 'O'Town will care enough about MP3 vs. the original CD quality to actually go out and buy it for that reason?
It's sad to see companies like Mobile Fidelity go under, but understandable given the current state of music and the technology that records it. Anyone who has listened to original releases like 'Days of Future Passed' by the Moody Blues, and then listened to one of MF's gold disc remasters knows what I'm talking about.
The recording and playback tech has improved to the point where there is now 'frivolous' levels of it. Given the popularity of MP3's, it's obvious that the general public's acceptable quality level of the medium has been sussed. It's somewhere above cassette tapes and 8-tracks, and below 96 KHz DVD Audio. Of course, that probably won't prevent ME from getting the Alan Parsons Project 'I, Robot' DVD Audio release. I'm a sucker that way.
However, ask yourself this question: If the Backstreet Boys put the Millennium album out on DVD Audio would ANYONE buy it?:)
Ever buy something sight unseen? I have - you takes your chances. I agree that when you buy a laptop from a vendor that only supports Windows, "You bought your tickets, you knew what you were getting into..."
BUT.. The real issue here is the incredible language the makes up the EULA - that's the sight unseen part. Simply getting Windows with a purchase isn't the point - it's the bullsh*t language you are forced to agree to. Or not. That's where THEIR OWN STATED REFUND POLICY comes in.
Who is agreeing to this contract? You? The OEM? Both? Since everyone knows that Microsoft will sue YOU so much as look at you, why is it wrong to hold them to their own incredible refund language? Note: it's THEIR policy we hold them to. Linux people didn't just 'make this up.'
Forget the Penguinista arguments. This isn't being unreasonable, it's called preserving your rights.
I have to say that startup speed is probably the biggest issue I have with these programs. However, on a brand new PC with a 7200 RPM drive and GHz processor speed, it should flat out fly anyway. At my school we use Open/StarOffice almost exclusively. It's working out, but for the students with under 400 MHz laptops, it's nightmarish.
On a side note, does anyone here know why Microsoft's 'Word' can load in like, 2 seconds, and OpenOffice.org's 'Writer' takes about 10 times that? Does M$ do something special with the OS to facilitate faster loading for Office?
Like them or not, Microsoft dumps billions of dollars into research. Some of this money is spent on seemingly 'stupid' things like, what shade of blue they should use for their kernel lockup screen. But some money is spent on really useful additions.
Take the mouse scroll wheel. When I first saw this thing I sniffed at it and decided it was hokey. Now, years later, it's like I can't live without one.
I think the OSS community should at least pay periphery attention to developments on other platforms. See what works, and what doesn't and 'borrow' it where applicable. This is certainly what both Microsoft and Apple have done in the past.
The Amish think that technology creates idle hands, however this doesn't seem to stop them from using 'outhouse' phones and generators for their milking machines.
Maybe they should also list what VERSION of Microsoft Office they use as well; after all, Office 11 won't run on 98 or ME. Maybe that means that a user can't claim to be able to use Windows because they haven't yet used XP.
This is ridiculous. Assuming that users aren't this flexible isn't facing reality. Anyone that's been in this industry a short time knows that change is the norm. What were schools using 5 years ago? 10? 15? Before I got here this school went through Wordperfect (for DOS and Windows), and various (and incompatible) versions of M$ Works and Office.
I switched Linden Hall School to Open/StarOffice 6 here because I could standardize without paying a fortune. All my boarding students have a copy, all the teachers, all the classrooms. All free.
Yes, there were a few issues, but the basic concepts translate over without showstopping problems. In thinking about the move it all boiled down to this basic question: Is there anything that can be done in MS Office that can't be done in OOo, and will it grossly affect what we do?
We are a secondary school. I could find no reason not to switch, and now in light of these new licensing "agreements", I'm really glad we did. I'm also pissed that I still pay M$'s tax at our local public school, but I'm working on them.
Chuck Hunnefield Technology Coordinator Linden Hall School for Girls
Heh.. I was a customer of these guys for 3 three years. Their earliest cable modems (the old Zenith black box jobs) only did 500K bps (which in 1994 was THE shit!), but had NO manageability. The amazing thing was, PTD offered this service in Lancaster County, PA - Amish Country - one of the most unlikeliest of areas. When I moved to D.C. 2 years later, even THEY didn't have decent cable service until 2001!
As a result, PenTeleData ended up coming up with some sort of rule that you couldn't download more than 128K bps over a 3 hour period. The per minute charge for overuse was unbelievable (it would have even made British Telecom blush).
I bitched to them about it. First of all, there was nothing in our original agreement about "overuse". Secondly, how would I know when this seemingly arbitrary limit had been reached? The thing was, there was no telling Microsoft to not send me the newest beta of W2K at over 128K bps. Finally, we reached a reasonable agreement whereby I would try to do any extreme downloading after hours, and if they needed the bandwidth they would simply throttle me back or cut me off.
About 2 months later, I went on a midnite downloading frenzy (on Napster) and suddenly {Snap!} I was cut off. Or so I thought. I soon discovered only Napster didn't work. Then I tried downloading off of various web sites. After a few minutes... {Snap!} Port 80 was dead. Later, and under VERY heavy use, I lost IRC, Newsgroups, and FTP. Basically, I had them manually shutting off ports all night. Yes, it was spiteful, but I was annoyed.;)
At any rate, at the end of the month, I received a bill from these folks and it was well over $800! After arguing with management over this bill (and threatening physical presence - always helpful when dealing with xenophobic phone people), they "remembered" our email conversation and let the bill slide. After I hung up the phone, I took the modem back and haven't dealt with them since.
People in this area can now get DSL (www.jazzd.com) and I can tell you from my experience that it's better and faster than even the cableco's newest modems. Also, they haven't made any stupid bandwidth limitations.
At any rate, I'm both amused and saddened that PTD is still trying to enforce the unenforceable. Either they need to get better bandwidth management tools, or a better management.
Slashdot Mirror
"SO/OO XML is not guaranteed to be a stable format. - Hell, if it would be so easy to have a stable format MS would've saved them and their customers a lot of trouble."
Well... To understand why MS has a real problem with their formats, you have to understand their formats. Since they don't SHARE that information, you can only speculate why this is.
Personally, I think it's because MS works so hard to obfusticate the efforts of others that it also has the net result of limiting their flexibility. Why else are their document sizes so much larger that SO/OOo?
Yes, the instal program is stupid. They know it, they're working on it.
What we do is install it by trickery. I assume here that you are using Windows 2000 or XP. First, I do a localized network install. Then from that directory, I install it as a user who will serve as my 'template' for that machine.
Once I get that template set up, I then copy that profile (using the profile copier under 'system'), to 'Default User'. This way, every user on that machine should get the standard setup.
DISADVANTAGE: If this computer is to be used in a lab, or by multiple users, keep in mind that one user can change the settings for EVERY user. So far, this hasn't been much of a problem, but it certainly is a possibility.
Let me know if you need to know more...
Sun is smart - they are going to do this the right way. They are working on programs for education. It may be that they will release something around the same time Office 11 comes out.
OpenOffice.org - the development platform for StarOffice is only at 1.0.1. It is stable (at least for us), but there are still a few issues to resolve. Not the least of which is a usable version for the Mac. This is probably part of the reason they are waiting as many schools do use Apple (although these are decreasing).
Our school jumped on the bandwagon while OpenOffice.org was still in beta. We completely converted to Open/StarOffice last year. I think that part of this push (when it happens), should also center around competition. It should go something like this:
"How many of your tax dollars go to your local schools? How much of that goes to Microsoft? You might be surprised..."
Offer StarOffice for cost of media, give OpenOffice.org to the students / parents on request and you've got a winner.
We support it at the school because Sun FUNDS OpenOffice.org's continued development. Nothing wrong with either version, but you do get a few extras with StarOffice - not to mention killer support.
Yep. No exaggeration there. We've had a few German students at our school. It is unpredictable what our boarding students will bring with them on their laptops.
Hell, it's half unpredictable what AMERICAN students use (Wordperfect, Works, Wordpad, etc.)
Look, I work at a school that has converted itself to Open/Staroffice. I just love the way some people assume that no one can change the way they do things anymore or that if they have to, there must be a financial reason behind it. If the past is any indication of the future - there's a hell of a lot more change coming.
Case in point: One of the arguments made against using Open/StarOffice here was this very thing - that everyone would have to learn something new. A few of the teachers were concerned about our conversion to Open/StarOffice; this was my basic response:
1) Yep. That's what we do - we learn new things here at school. You expect the students to learn new things. Well, once in a while, the teachers must adjust also.
2) This is hardly the first time (and probably won't be the last time) that we have changed office-type software. As I had only been at the school one year prior to this, I did some checking.
Before using Office 97, they were using 95. Before that, some were using Word for DOS, some Works. Before that, Wordperfect. Before that, XYwrite and Visicalc. Etc. Change is inevitable.
The big difference here is that there's a lot more in common between Open/StarOffice and MS Office than MS Office and say, the Wordperfect suite. Sometimes, I think that people that slam on the usability and 'retraining' costs, haven't bothered TRYING it themselves! It's not that hard folks, really.
3) Standardizing on Open/StarOffice lets us give a FREE copy of Openoffice.org to every student, every teacher, every parent (should they want it). Truly a win/win situation here! No more BS with students showing up with a paper they typed at home and not being able to open it at school.
4) Which teacher would like to give up his/her position to enable us to afford licensing for Office XP (yes, I was serious!)
For us. the REAL question was - can the replacement software do EVERYTHING the last one could - at least for what we use it for? For the teachers and students the answer was a definate 'yes'.
I won't even get into the biggest advantage of all. Being able to use a cross-platform office suite means having the ability to GO cross-platform at some future date. Whether we do or not will depend on Microsoft.
Of course Sun is trying to gain some market share. The way they've done it is certainly more fair than MS's bullying of vendors and producing crippled versions of Office (Works, anyone?)
The biggest difference here is that Sun has released the bulk of the code LGPL. Can't be revoked. End of story. What you get with OpenOffice.org is free and clear. That is, free as in freedom AND beer!
He's got a point. Remember that not-well-planned attempt to convert Mexico schools to Linux?
Yes, let's put RH w/KDE on 486's... Didn't work due to poor planning. I wonder of the over-exuberance of Penguinistas is to blame for that one.
We might not be a university, but our school here in PA did it. We converted to Staroffice 6.0 for the teachers and lab computers. We also distribute Openoffice.org to all of the students. This is an important point, because as MS Office file formats become more and more fragmented (just wait until Office 11!), the need to unify on a single, usable format (like XML) becomes critical. While saving money on licenses is a bonus, the real savings for us is in the heartache of incompatible formats.
Anyone here care to guess how many different incompatible programs our students have on their computers? Not counting the various (and sometimes) incompatible variations on MS Office, you also have the abortion known as MS Works. Then there's Lotus, WordPerfect... Hell, even NOTEPAD! And don't get me started about the different versions used from country to country. We have students who attend here from all over the world.
We've been using Open/Staroffice now for well over a year and are not looking back anytime soon. There were some minor initial glitches, but this was due to our using the Openoffice.org betas. Star PP1 / Open 1.0.1 have been rock solid for us.
Chuck Hunnefield
Technology Coordinator
Linden Hall School for Girls
"They bought their tickets... They knew what they were getting into..."
But the 'Lock out your freedoms' one was cool! :)
...we should let Radgametools know how profitable it would be for them to code for Linux. After all, the alternative is that their products aren't used at all, -or- someone enevitably hacks together an OSS version of Miles and Bink. Surely they don't want that!
Send Radgametools an email and let them know that there's interest in seeing their products on our favorite platform.
support@radgametools.com
I think there was a LOT more emphasis on stereo quality in the 70's and 80's than there is now for one basic reason - the music. That's not to say that there wasn't crap stereo equipment relative to the technology available. There was.
:)
I'll probably be Trolled for this but the fact is, most fans of Rap don't really demand much more than a good subwoofer. And just how many fans of 'O'Town will care enough about MP3 vs. the original CD quality to actually go out and buy it for that reason?
It's sad to see companies like Mobile Fidelity go under, but understandable given the current state of music and the technology that records it. Anyone who has listened to original releases like 'Days of Future Passed' by the Moody Blues, and then listened to one of MF's gold disc remasters knows what I'm talking about.
The recording and playback tech has improved to the point where there is now 'frivolous' levels of it. Given the popularity of MP3's, it's obvious that the general public's acceptable quality level of the medium has been sussed. It's somewhere above cassette tapes and 8-tracks, and below 96 KHz DVD Audio. Of course, that probably won't prevent ME from getting the Alan Parsons Project 'I, Robot' DVD Audio release. I'm a sucker that way.
However, ask yourself this question: If the Backstreet Boys put the Millennium album out on DVD Audio would ANYONE buy it?
Ever buy something sight unseen? I have - you takes your chances. I agree that when you buy a laptop from a vendor that only supports Windows, "You bought your tickets, you knew what you were getting into..."
BUT.. The real issue here is the incredible language the makes up the EULA - that's the sight unseen part. Simply getting Windows with a purchase isn't the point - it's the bullsh*t language you are forced to agree to. Or not. That's where THEIR OWN STATED REFUND POLICY comes in.
Who is agreeing to this contract? You? The OEM? Both? Since everyone knows that Microsoft will sue YOU so much as look at you, why is it wrong to hold them to their own incredible refund language? Note: it's THEIR policy we hold them to. Linux people didn't just 'make this up.'
Forget the Penguinista arguments. This isn't being unreasonable, it's called preserving your rights.
Yeah, right. Look, this is about 'agreeing' to stuff you don't want to. This isn't about changing staid corporate culture - that's not gonna happen.
I have to say that startup speed is probably the biggest issue I have with these programs. However, on a brand new PC with a 7200 RPM drive and GHz processor speed, it should flat out fly anyway. At my school we use Open/StarOffice almost exclusively. It's working out, but for the students with under 400 MHz laptops, it's nightmarish.
On a side note, does anyone here know why Microsoft's 'Word' can load in like, 2 seconds, and OpenOffice.org's 'Writer' takes about 10 times that? Does M$ do something special with the OS to facilitate faster loading for Office?
Like them or not, Microsoft dumps billions of dollars into research. Some of this money is spent on seemingly 'stupid' things like, what shade of blue they should use for their kernel lockup screen. But some money is spent on really useful additions.
Take the mouse scroll wheel. When I first saw this thing I sniffed at it and decided it was hokey. Now, years later, it's like I can't live without one.
I think the OSS community should at least pay periphery attention to developments on other platforms. See what works, and what doesn't and 'borrow' it where applicable. This is certainly what both Microsoft and Apple have done in the past.
The Amish think that technology creates idle hands, however this doesn't seem to stop them from using 'outhouse' phones and generators for their milking machines.
Maybe they should also list what VERSION of Microsoft Office they use as well; after all, Office 11 won't run on 98 or ME. Maybe that means that a user can't claim to be able to use Windows because they haven't yet used XP.
This is ridiculous. Assuming that users aren't this flexible isn't facing reality. Anyone that's been in this industry a short time knows that change is the norm. What were schools using 5 years ago? 10? 15? Before I got here this school went through Wordperfect (for DOS and Windows), and various (and incompatible) versions of M$ Works and Office.
I switched Linden Hall School to Open/StarOffice 6 here because I could standardize without paying a fortune. All my boarding students have a copy, all the teachers, all the classrooms. All free.
Yes, there were a few issues, but the basic concepts translate over without showstopping problems. In thinking about the move it all boiled down to this basic question: Is there anything that can be done in MS Office that can't be done in OOo, and will it grossly affect what we do?
We are a secondary school. I could find no reason not to switch, and now in light of these new licensing "agreements", I'm really glad we did. I'm also pissed that I still pay M$'s tax at our local public school, but I'm working on them.
Chuck Hunnefield
Technology Coordinator
Linden Hall School for Girls
To whoever modded this: Did you even bother to see what the link was I was commenting about?
Fscking spammer.
Or to put it another way... This software is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we use it!
Heh.. I was a customer of these guys for 3 three years. Their earliest cable modems (the old Zenith black box jobs) only did 500K bps (which in 1994 was THE shit!), but had NO manageability. The amazing thing was, PTD offered this service in Lancaster County, PA - Amish Country - one of the most unlikeliest of areas. When I moved to D.C. 2 years later, even THEY didn't have decent cable service until 2001!
;)
As a result, PenTeleData ended up coming up with some sort of rule that you couldn't download more than 128K bps over a 3 hour period. The per minute charge for overuse was unbelievable (it would have even made British Telecom blush).
I bitched to them about it. First of all, there was nothing in our original agreement about "overuse". Secondly, how would I know when this seemingly arbitrary limit had been reached? The thing was, there was no telling Microsoft to not send me the newest beta of W2K at over 128K bps. Finally, we reached a reasonable agreement whereby I would try to do any extreme downloading after hours, and if they needed the bandwidth they would simply throttle me back or cut me off.
About 2 months later, I went on a midnite downloading frenzy (on Napster) and suddenly {Snap!} I was cut off. Or so I thought. I soon discovered only Napster didn't work. Then I tried downloading off of various web sites. After a few minutes... {Snap!} Port 80 was dead. Later, and under VERY heavy use, I lost IRC, Newsgroups, and FTP. Basically, I had them manually shutting off ports all night. Yes, it was spiteful, but I was annoyed.
At any rate, at the end of the month, I received a bill from these folks and it was well over $800! After arguing with management over this bill (and threatening physical presence - always helpful when dealing with xenophobic phone people), they "remembered" our email conversation and let the bill slide. After I hung up the phone, I took the modem back and haven't dealt with them since.
People in this area can now get DSL (www.jazzd.com) and I can tell you from my experience that it's better and faster than even the cableco's newest modems. Also, they haven't made any stupid bandwidth limitations.
At any rate, I'm both amused and saddened that PTD is still trying to enforce the unenforceable. Either they need to get better bandwidth management tools, or a better management.