Sure, the first order effects of offshoring look good, but second, third and fourth order effects could be devastating (including your friendly offshore nation builds a better atomic bomb than you because you have been paying him to increase his intellectual capital).
Before we start beating our patriotic chests, it's worth remembering that America went to the moon because it grabbed the best German rocket scientists. The V-2 program of WWII was well ahead of anything else in the World and had some of the best German minds working on it.
It's also worth remembering that the atom bomb was an Anglo-American invention. (Ok, so I am not particularly proud of that one, but most Americans don't realise it was a joint project with the British).
I'm not sure that education is why America is one of the richest nations in the World (although education plays a large part). Seems to me that America is rich because it is prepared to do things most other countries are not (eg, apartheid until the '60s, toppling governments of small countries, few workers rights etc).
I have one simple, competitive advantage. I sit next to my customer. All the technology in the World will not take that away. If he has a problem, we can discuss it over a coffee.
Whatsmore, since I have legal rights, he can't dismiss me just because I tell him what he wants cannot be done in a ridiculously small time scale. This protects him from unscrupulous salesman who will tell him a project will take 3 months when they know very well it will take a year.
In short: the human element will protect you.
Of course, it helps if you live in Europe where business is based on long-term relationships rather than short-term profits. The average American CEO only stays in his position for 18 months before leaving with a huge wad of money. It makes sense for such individuals to offshore, make immediate savings, cash their cheque then leave the mess for the next guy.
Because this is not the usual practise over here, the IT job market is booming in England.
How many hours did it take you to learn to be a Guitar Technician?
Some of us spent years at university to study for our profession, you know.
I can't keep doing a degree in the latest new trend. I'm just glad I don't live in America - where business and politicians seem intent on sending high-paid jobs abroad.
Why doesn't the government there realise they will have less tax returns and more social costs if this trend continues?
It was protectionism... that ultimately set up the economic conditions for two world wars.
Protectionism started two World wars??? That'll come as a shock to most historians.
The First World War was due to the arms race between Britain and Germany. This powder keg was lit by the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand. Due to various treaties, countries were dragged into the melee.
The Second World War was started when Germany took back parts of other countries that it believed it had a right to (due to borders being redrawn). The conditions that brought Hitler to power were due to the onerous terms of surrender Germany signed up to after the First World War - a mistake the Allies avoided after the second.
It can hardly be called a free market when I am discriminated against because of my race.
I don't want to invest in the American listings. I want to invest in India because of the weak Rupee that will get stronger over time (while the dollar looks like it is in terminal decline). I cannot do this because India has racist laws stopping white people from doing so.
So, to summarise: it's not a free market and my profession is being destroyed.
Some of you guys might be prepared to sell out your community while chanting the dogma of "free-trade-helps-everyone" that some rich CEOs taught you but I am more circumspect.
Devoid of fact? Well, better than getting the facts wrong.
Free-trade is a basic tool of a capitalist economy. It has a proven track-record of working (eg: France under Napoleon
Napoleon controlled bread prices for the welfare of the people. Check this link for more information.
Stop swallowing dogma wholesale.
A recall of facts goes some way to showing intelligence. But if you regurgitate the misinformation of self-interested people, that goes all the way to showing stupidity.
Go check the web for other places where accepting American-style free trade has damaged the economy (eg, New Zealand in the 80s and 90s) and abandoning free trade has protected it (eg, Malaysia since the Asian crisis).
There is no "one size fits all" solution in economics.
As ever, the future will probably not be as bad as the pessimists predict or as good as the optimists say it will.
Since the tone of this forum is somewhat negative, I am going to throw in a few positives.
Cultural differences the article talks about Hindus not having Western egos. Hmmm, not sure about this but many people here on a visa need to tread carefully and not tell their managers they're full of shite. Not standing up is bad for business. Most managers know jacksh*t about coding and need to be told the truth. Companies that only employ "yes"-men don't last very long. This is, I think, part of the reason Japan never became a software powerhouse. You simply cannot tell the boss-man he is wrong in Japanese business culture.
Quality of Third World Programmers Nobody here in the UK goes into coding for the money anymore. Whereas in India, many people do. Who is going to be the better programmer: people who code for love or people who code just for the cash?
Education maybe India produces great programmers, I just ain't seeing any. To be sure, some of my Western colleagues are not great programmers either but all except one of the 6 Indian programmers I worked with didn't know the basics (they only survive because managers can't tell a good programmer from a bad programmer). This straw poll is hardly a compelling argument but when all my friends report similar findings, it makes me think.
The inevitability of offshoring management For those of you who hate managers - take heart! It is only a matter of time before they are offshored. I just worked on a successful project with my manager based almost entirely in Paris (I was in London). He could just as easily been in India since he was charging far more than me. Oh, sure, managers will claim too many cultural differences for this to happen but it is only a matter of time before people see that's just racism masquerading as logic.
I have had US bosses and they did fine without any appreciation of the culture in my country. My girlfriend is from South Africa and she was a highly paid manager ('till she returned to practising law). Jeez, you don't get much more of a different culture than South Africa and England (apartheid legacy, Afrikaan speaking, low GDP per capita etc - BTW that's South Africa not England;-) )
The electorate will only tolerate offshoring for so long America is losing half a trillion dollars a year with it's astronomical trade deficit. It's technology base is moving abroad. These factors (and others) threaten not only national pride but national security. It can only be a matter of time before legislation is introduced - albeit benign legislation of the sort that provides tax breaks for companies coding in the States.
Communication The biggest single failure of software projects that I have seen is lack of communication. A priori communication is not going to be improved when your workforce lives halway around the World.
I'll start to warm to globalization when the most expensive jobs are off-shored: those in management.
And if another person tells me that there are inherent cultural differences stopping us from off-shoring management, I will call them a racist to their face.
If developers can work in India with managers in the West, why not the other way around?
Until this happens, forgive me for being "paranoid" at the thought that somebody is gunning for my well-being...
> government interference in markets, other than
> to address market failures or personal safety,
> is bad for the market
Not necessarily true.
Japan, Germany and France are examples of rich countries that overtook American productivity while heavily regulating their markets (although, to be fair, they have had a few problems in the last 8 years or so).
Question: has a project ever been successfully outsourced to India?
With much fanfare and PR, companies brag about off-shore resources but - seriously has anybody heard of one that succeeded?
I may be wrong, of course. But I have read of so many projects being outsourced and then - zip! - absolutely silence. If they really were saving millions, don't you think big corporations would be bragging about it?
From my experience Third-World educated people produce third rate-results.
Management teams do this all the time and nobody questions it.
I wish you the best of luck.
Re:"Bush's War" at ends with "The War On Terror"
on
Strike on Iraq
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· Score: 1
>>We did not learn it from you, you
>>arrogant arse.
> Then from who [sic]? The French?
Nope, but you guys did when you went independent.
France has an excellent history of enlightened policy towards its former colonies. People in many of its former colonies are considered citizens of Greater France with the rights to live and vote there irrespective of their skin colour.
>> You Americans deprived your own >> citizens of the power to vote simply >> based on their skin pigmentation >> until about the 1960s.
> Eh? Try 1870 (15th amendment). If you > want to whine about that, you should > complain about women's suffrage; they > didn't get to vote until 1920 (19th > amendment).
But the law was not enforced. What use is that?
"Less than a quarter of the South's voting age black population could vote, and in certain southern counties blacks could not vote, serve on grand juries and trial juries, or frequent all-white beaches, restaurants, and hotels. "
Slashdot Mirror
If making goods abroad cuts costs, why does a pair of sneakers that cost 50c to make still cost me about $50?
Why is it that the most expensive people in my organisation and the easiest to offshore (middle-management) get paid more than me?
I think yours is a very simplistic view of the World.
Charlie Munger (Warren Buffet's second in command) argues against over-simplifying economics (follow the links to his transcript at the Motley Fool) and the dangers that it brings.
Sure, the first order effects of offshoring look good, but second, third and fourth order effects could be devastating (including your friendly offshore nation builds a better atomic bomb than you because you have been paying him to increase his intellectual capital).
"At year-end 2001, the gap between the assets abroad owned by Americans and foreign-owned assets in the US reached $2.31 trillion...
Put another way, the US debtor balance amounts to 22.6 percent of the nation's gross domestic product"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0809/p02s01-usec.htm
It's also worth remembering that the atom bomb was an Anglo-American invention. (Ok, so I am not particularly proud of that one, but most Americans don't realise it was a joint project with the British).
I'm not sure that education is why America is one of the richest nations in the World (although education plays a large part). Seems to me that America is rich because it is prepared to do things most other countries are not (eg, apartheid until the '60s, toppling governments of small countries, few workers rights etc).
Whatsmore, since I have legal rights, he can't dismiss me just because I tell him what he wants cannot be done in a ridiculously small time scale. This protects him from unscrupulous salesman who will tell him a project will take 3 months when they know very well it will take a year.
In short: the human element will protect you.
Of course, it helps if you live in Europe where business is based on long-term relationships rather than short-term profits. The average American CEO only stays in his position for 18 months before leaving with a huge wad of money. It makes sense for such individuals to offshore, make immediate savings, cash their cheque then leave the mess for the next guy.
Because this is not the usual practise over here, the IT job market is booming in England.
What about exchanging the money into their own currency?
Money never flows out and not back into a country, unless they are your colony.
Well, actually, yes it does. America spends half a trillion dollars a year more than ir earns. It does this by a little thing called debt.
I agree, India and China will benifit.
For those of us in the West who don't live off our investments, the future isn't quite so rosy.
Half a trillion dollar budget deficit???
One percent of its adult male population in jail (and, therefore, not on the unemployment books)???
2.5 million layoffs since Bush was "elected"????
Mate, what the hell are you talking about?
If by the economy doing well you mean GDP growth - just remember GDP is only one of many ways in measuring wealth. A more holistic view is less rosy.
Some of us spent years at university to study for our profession, you know.
I can't keep doing a degree in the latest new trend. I'm just glad I don't live in America - where business and politicians seem intent on sending high-paid jobs abroad.
Why doesn't the government there realise they will have less tax returns and more social costs if this trend continues?
-
1% of the adult male population of the US is in prison at any one time (far higher than Germany)
-
and that the long-term unemployed in the US drop off the statistics after a few months
the unemployment figures are about the same as the US.Protectionism started two World wars??? That'll come as a shock to most historians.
The First World War was due to the arms race between Britain and Germany. This powder keg was lit by the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand. Due to various treaties, countries were dragged into the melee.
The Second World War was started when Germany took back parts of other countries that it believed it had a right to (due to borders being redrawn). The conditions that brought Hitler to power were due to the onerous terms of surrender Germany signed up to after the First World War - a mistake the Allies avoided after the second.
In each case, I don't see any protectionism.
I don't want to convert my UK Pounds to Dollars to Ruppes. That's going to cost me a fortune.
And people don't just "take care of all the currency transactions". The b*stards charge us for that privelege.
Anyway, you still don't address the issue that India is racist by not allowing white people to directly invest in their market.
Do you think it would be acceptable if we in the West introduced laws that stopped people of Indian descent from investing in our markets...?
It can hardly be called a free market when I am discriminated against because of my race.
I don't want to invest in the American listings. I want to invest in India because of the weak Rupee that will get stronger over time (while the dollar looks like it is in terminal decline). I cannot do this because India has racist laws stopping white people from doing so.
So, to summarise: it's not a free market and my profession is being destroyed.
F*cking great.
"India's stock market is still largely closed to foreign investors ... unless you are a resident of India [or] a person of Indian origin" [My italics]
The Motley Fool
Some of you guys might be prepared to sell out your community while chanting the dogma of "free-trade-helps-everyone" that some rich CEOs taught you but I am more circumspect.
Free-trade is a basic tool of a capitalist economy. It has a proven track-record of working (eg: France under Napoleon
Napoleon controlled bread prices for the welfare of the people. Check this link for more information.
Stop swallowing dogma wholesale. A recall of facts goes some way to showing intelligence. But if you regurgitate the misinformation of self-interested people, that goes all the way to showing stupidity.
Go check the web for other places where accepting American-style free trade has damaged the economy (eg, New Zealand in the 80s and 90s) and abandoning free trade has protected it (eg, Malaysia since the Asian crisis).
There is no "one size fits all" solution in economics.
Since the tone of this forum is somewhat negative, I am going to throw in a few positives.
I have had US bosses and they did fine without any appreciation of the culture in my country. My girlfriend is from South Africa and she was a highly paid manager ('till she returned to practising law). Jeez, you don't get much more of a different culture than South Africa and England (apartheid legacy, Afrikaan speaking, low GDP per capita etc - BTW that's South Africa not England
I live in Europe and American GUIs are fine with me. My girlfriend is South African and American GUIs are fine with her.
Are you using "cultural differences" as a euphemism for "racial differences"?
Coders do not "manufacture" code any more than lawyers "manufacture" contracts.
And if another person tells me that there are inherent cultural differences stopping us from off-shoring management, I will call them a racist to their face.
If developers can work in India with managers in the West, why not the other way around?
Until this happens, forgive me for being "paranoid" at the thought that somebody is gunning for my well-being...
> to address market failures or personal safety,
> is bad for the market
Not necessarily true.
Japan, Germany and France are examples of rich countries that overtook American productivity while heavily regulating their markets (although, to be fair, they have had a few problems in the last 8 years or so).
A box of ballots can be checked by somebody else who is chosen in a double-blind selection process.
Question: has a project ever been successfully outsourced to India?
With much fanfare and PR, companies brag about off-shore resources but - seriously has anybody heard of one that succeeded?
I may be wrong, of course. But I have read of so many projects being outsourced and then - zip! - absolutely silence. If they really were saving millions, don't you think big corporations would be bragging about it?
From my experience Third-World educated people produce third rate-results.
Why not?
Management teams do this all the time and nobody questions it.
I wish you the best of luck.
>>We did not learn it from you, you
>>arrogant arse.
> Then from who [sic]? The French?
Nope, but you guys did when you went independent.
France has an excellent history of enlightened policy towards its former colonies. People in many of its former colonies are considered citizens of Greater France with the rights to live and vote there irrespective of their skin colour.
>> You Americans deprived your own
>> citizens of the power to vote simply
>> based on their skin pigmentation
>> until about the 1960s.
> Eh? Try 1870 (15th amendment). If you
> want to whine about that, you should
> complain about women's suffrage; they
> didn't get to vote until 1920 (19th
> amendment).
But the law was not enforced. What use is that?
"Less than a quarter of the South's voting age black population could vote, and in certain southern counties blacks could not vote, serve on grand juries and trial juries, or frequent all-white beaches, restaurants, and hotels. "
http://www.gliah.uh.edu/database/article_display.c fm?HHID=362
Is this what you mean about America teaching the world about freedom?
>whose people are more free in many ways than we
>are, at the moment, but they learned it from us.
We did not learn it from you, you arrogant arse.
You Americans deprived your own citizens of the power to vote simply based on their skin pigmentation until about the 1960s.
So, when do we start inviting Indian managers over?