Slashdot Mirror
Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU
YKW writes "According to Ars Technica, Germany has decided to vote against all changes to current European patent laws. In a statement given to demonstrators in Germany, Federal Department of Justice Minsterial Director Elmar Hucko read the riot act to the EC: 'Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe, Hucko vowed with regard to the US patent process. A patent must be "a fair reward for a bona fide invention and not abused as a strategy to bludgeon competitors.' With the largest EU member against software patents and French IT leaders lobbying their goverment to vote against them too, Europe might be saved from software patents. At least for a while. An older Slashdot article about software patents in Europe is here."
I am curious to see how this will play out with big US companies like Microsoft and Apple, specifically with foreign competitors cloning their products.
Will Microsoft be able to prevent Windows clones from being sold in the US by US patents, even though they may be legal in Europe?
Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...
If the WIPO can get a standard software patent system across both sides (US and Euro), preferrably like the Europeans, we might not be reading Slashdot headlines every morning that read "Apple Patents the English Language!", etc. The US Patent system is dated, and needs change, especially when such patents can be made and there is such a high backlog of patents...Time shall tell, but this may be the first step in getting software/IP patents sorted out
My MythTV HowTo
And for the Americans who may ask "It's Europe; who give a flying fuck?", you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy. And since Germany is the EU's largest member (and the article also points out efforts in France to block the software patent laws), this this could really heat up the war over software patents.
One man's selflessness is another man's annoyance.
On Groklaw, this was reported last Thursday. Not only will Germany vote no, but there is some pretty heavy pressure on France to do the same. In fact, to quote Groklaw, "They call business methods patents on software corporate racketeering and say they don't want to copy US methods"
The entities putting pressure on the French govt. include the head of MandrakeSoft, who has pretty heavy pull over in France. In fact, IIRC, a lot of French govt. agencies use Mandrake Linux.
bash: rtfm: command not found
all that companies in the EU will have to do if software patents are denied in the EU will be to set up a small arm of the company in the US. since most software products are sold here as well, they can just do the litigation here in the US. all it would take is for the company violating the patent to have an office or bank account in the US or to sell the offending product in the US...
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
The overall premise of patenting an invention is valid and protects the inventor. However, I agree the current system is highly abused. The flaw in the current system, is the ability to patent 'IDEAS' even if you cant physically create a functioning prototype. For example, right now you can patent the 'IDEA' of a hovercraft car, and 50 years from now when someone actually develops a hovercraft car...they *must* pay royalties to you. ???? this needs to be changed. You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas. -$0.02
my guess is that the entire house of cards in the US will all come crashing down. The canny Europeans seem to be looking slightly ahead here with an eye toward saving themselves some trouble farther down the road.
Is it fascism yet?
Hopefully this will eventually cause change in the American patent system. The current system pratically stifles competition and clogs our court systems, costing millions to tax payers. I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?
I still want to get a patent for the human reproductive proccess so that I can essentially control who can and can not reproduce. Gosh knows somebody needs to.
The WIPO as an agency of the UN, can aim to standardise patent laws worldwide but of course, international law isn't binding and Germany has all the right in the world to choose not to recognise law outside of their domestic jurisdiction.
Ultimately, if Germany doesn't have the political will to support the EC on changes to software patents...then nobody can force them.
Who wins there? I would think local law would trump any treaties, but am I wrong?
bash: rtfm: command not found
http://www.jwp.bc.ca/saulm/nn/amazon.htm SEATTLE--In a move that could shake up non platonic relationships, Internet retailer Amazon.com has patented the use of the male penis. Amazon's possession of this patent could allow the company to prohibit men from using theirs without giving the online merchant information.
One gets the impression we could make the EU do anything we wanted with reverse psychology.
"OH Bush likes it? Dirty Texans, we shall do the opposite."
The more you know, the less you understand.
It must be a sign of how jaded I've become .. I get no joy out of this announcement because there are probably 500 different things that will happen to reverse it or otherwise change it.
I fully expect the United States to exert effort at the request of $LARGE_COMPANY on Germany to "harmonize" with US law.
Then when/if US intellectual property law comes up for debate, the US will say "we can't have different laws than Europe, we must harmonize!"
Who knows.. I'm not optimistic.
I wonder if the pressure against software patents will extend to other intangible patents such as so-called "business process patents"? I hope so, because the real issue isn't software per se, but the whole idea of patenting "ideas" as opposed to implementations.
Your patent laws are a train wreck.
Sincerly,
The rest of the world.
I ran a benchmark on my quantum computer, now I can't find it anywhere!
This is an example of how countries in Europe are *not* run by large corporations, but by the people (at least compared to the US).
Methinks that the EU might be a good place to look into for some fun IT work if they regard the US system like that.
Think on it: Within the EU software ideas will run wild, everyone having access to nuance inventions in their software, whilst over here in the US you won't be allowed to measure the length of a click, run an application within another, nor make an entire window transparent without getting permission from someone else (possibly paying for it).
I wonder how long it will be before free Elvis albums won't be the only product of Europe States-side corporations will try to block.
--
Up through college in the US, everything else anywhere else.
Direct away from face when opening.
I've been reading how the U.S. government has lost quite a bit of "face" lately because of the Iraq prison scandal and other things related to our presence in Iraq.
And now here we read from leaders of other nations, "Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe." It seems that dissing the U.S. is going to become more regular.
I think that just a few weeks ago we might have heard the same guy say something like, "I don't think software patents are such a good idea." Or perhaps that he was giving the idea some consideration.
But now we don't seem to have the moral high ground that we used to have.
(American == bad) && (!American == good)
the difference in GDP is less than 3/4th of a trillion. and the US has about 290 million people, and all demographic projections show US growing significantly faster than most of old europe.i on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Un
Currently (May 2004) the EU, considered as a unit, has the largest economy in the world, with a 2002 GDP of 9.61310 euro. The United States, by comparison, has the largest GDP of a single country - 10.45010 dollars (or 8.78210 euro at the current exchange rate of $1.19 per euro). The European Union continues to enjoy a significant trade surplus, as opposed to the widening trade deficit being experienced by the US. However, as of 2004 the European Union has generally been suffering stagnant economic growth and low employment (averaged across the Union).
The EU economy is expected to grow further over the next decade as more countries join the union - especially considering that the new States are usually poorer than the EU average, and hence the expected fast GDP growth will help achieve the dynamic of the united Europe. However, GDP per capita of the whole Union will fall over the short-term. In the long-term, the EU's economy suffers from significant demographic challenges, with a below-replacement birth rate.
Argh! As you Americans demand not to be held responsible for your forefathers keeping slaves, and as todays Germans can in no way be held accountable to Hitlers actions, as should todays Americans sit down and shut the fuck up about Hitler. You did nok keep slaves, therefore you shall not be responsible for it, you did not save uss from Hitler, therefore you can not claim respect and honor for that.
When in danger, whewn in doubt! Run in circles, scream and shout!
looks like you were right...hovercraft is patented: .... sea-land-sky craft capable of navigating on the water, running on the land and flying in the air (that is, climbing vertically, flying horizontally and hovering in the air) usable in a new transportation system 1. The sea-land-sky craft comprises rotating wings rotatable in opposite directions on their centers. Mounting shafts .....
= PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&f=G &l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&S1=(hovering+AND+car)&OS=hovering +AND+car&RS=(hovering+AND+car)
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1
I'm hoping that this will turn some heads in the US Congress and start making them more open-minded towards patent reform. I can dream, can't I?
If the identity of most of these "we saved your ass from Hitler" trolls were known, you'd find that most of them aren't Americans at all, but non-Americans who like to foment anti-US sentiment by playing the stereotype American.
nT
What about buying some shares in the US company who's patents your EU company would infringe if you sold your stuff in the US?
Yeah I'm not french either. And although I like to have a dig at them occasionally the fact that I know it is probably americans modding this up (and who created tehe video) just ruins it. We english have been at war with the frogs and dissing them out for much longer and have a right to this humour.
Whereas you americans.... The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.
Disgrace. The french not supporting (i.e. verbal) your quite questionable war equates to treachery? How about remembering the guys who died for you, and died for an ideal.
fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.
Germany will NOT vote against SWPATs and probably never will. ArsTechica fell for an uninformed Heise news where the reporter was not listening carefully.
/ 2004q2/000059.html
What they said is the same they always said: "We will not vote for it." -- which means they are planning to abstain, not vote against it.
And they are abstaining for the wrong reasons, also.
The babbling about "not wanting US like situation" is entirely insubstantial. Nothing but hot air to distract from the fact that they are indeed working on total patentability.
So do not misunderestimate the German BMJ.
They are are among the hardest hardliners.
The FSFE was more informed -- and issued a statement to ask them to actually walk the path that the news see them walking on:
http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/press-release
...FhG and other groups that receive government funding in Germany will be giving up their all their math- and software-related patents, too. After all, such a ruling would put Dolby, for instance, at something of a disadvantage in Europe, wouldn't it?
We own the patent on train wrecks and your post is infringing on that patent.
Check your history and see how many people were killed so that the current inhabitants of your country could live there. The original americans (not the native americans) were only doing what they were doing because thats how it was in europe.
Regards,
Steve
WIPO does not follow the path of reason like most of the rest of UN does. It's been infiltrated by the business interests of USA companies.
WIPO has gone from World Intellectual Property Organization to World Intellectual Povery Organization. How can culture be used to benefit mankind, if it's protected by laws to practically never enter into the public domain? How can there be culture if everything has a price?
As an example, think about Mickey Mouse.
National parliaments do matter. You can still send e-mails to fi the parliament's commission for economic affairs. They can then put some pressure on the minister (secretary of economic affairs). Do create some stir. Especially if you are in one of the 10 new members too.
This is actually insightful, unless the moderators feel like it's going against their preprogrammed worldview, ofcourse.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I thought patents applicable to software algorithms (e.g. RSA, GIF, and MP3) could be filed for in European countries.
For example, here are some of Fraunhofer's patents that are relevant to MP3:
(da list)
Does the term "software patent" refer only to things like translucent windows, and not include more technical matters like MP3 and RSA?
Or is the idea (I hope!) that such patents would no longer be allowed? Or maybe that the EU would just not pressure all of its members to respect them?
I think the main reason is: you set a lot of rules, then refuse to follow them yourself.
Examples: nuclear weapons pact, bioweapons pacts, chemical weapons pacts. You use your power position in the UN wrongly. You request following the Geneva treaty for people who have been imprisoned by your enemies, yet you set up concentration camps to Guantanamo and beat people to death in the Iraqi prison you control. Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg). And don't even think all of this started with 9/11. No, no.. it had been going on for a longer time. You have to go back to the beginning of the previous century to see all the details and find the reasons.
Whenever something happens to you, you cry foul, although there's a good chance you have already done something similar to some other country.
I think such double standards are the main reason of dislike towards USA. Using the power position to set rules for other, and then ruthlessly exploiting and ignoring them.
And remember, most people hate the country, and what it represents, and especially the government, but have no quarrels with the ordinary citizen.
I am posting this anonymously because it will draw a lot of flak from people who do not read this post with thought and consider this a flamebait. It's not. You can think yourself if the opinions in this post are correct or not and could this be the answer to your question.
Italian Minister for Technological Innovation, that is not entitled to vote ( DOH! ), has strongly recommended his collegues partecipating to vote against as well
It is an example of how it is run by large GOVERNMENTS. You take out the "large corporations" and replace them with "large governments"... that is what Europe is, my friend, and I don't know which is worse.
Yeah, we germans are against software patents!
Well you never know: if some other country patents the idea of reproducing software, we aren't able to "export" our software, like sasser, netsky, phatbot, etc ;-)
Alles wird gut!
Wow. An entire web site dedicated t hating france. The irony is rich however and the link you point to accuses the french of hating israel. I guess to them it's OK to hate one country but not the other.
evil is as evil does
Just a suggestion: might it not be wise to create a topic and icon for matters pertaining to EU law, in parallel to the Stars and Stripes icon often seen on YRO stories pertaining to US law? I for one am finding the many "earlier Slashdot stories" referenced in the text of every EU software patent story one reads nowadays to be a tedious method of threading.
And before I get modded down by the Europe bashers, let me disclose that I'm an American who finds it edifying to keep up with events across the pond, and have no interest in the "Is Slashdot too Americentric" debate.
why? are you feeling a little guilty? anybody who is informed is aware of the hatred of the Jews returning in europe (as if it really went way)! however, technically you are right we didn`t save you from hitler, he did us all a big favor (the bastered) and shot himself.... respect and honor? i would imagine the death of 6 million men, women, and children is something people like you brag about during octoberfest....
Im pretty sure we did save you from Hitler. There are still many of veterns of WWII and they should have all the respect and honor they deserve.
Why would they vote no? Did the lobbyists run out of money? I doubt they're trying to do the Right Thing. Politicians aren't known for that.
Does everything include nothing?
If the german government choses to not vote in favor of this, then only because they're sure their vote is not needed in order to have this passed.
Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why. Don't be fooled for one minute by the german government: they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections. They don't critize the US for what happened in iraq recently, but are killing themselves to tell everyone how aweful the beheading of one US citizen was - to get a permanent seat in the UN security council.
Don't trust them. They WANT this law. They fought for it for years. They're just opportunistic, that's all.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
I just wish that other countries will now follow the example that the Germans have set.
Free Firefox news reader.
Good! The experiment continues, now we'll have software industry with & without patents in each side of Atlantic.
Monopolies (US economy) vs Regulations (EU politics).
In the long run EU-US / US-EU will have to synchronice not only patent systems, but also legal and fiscal proceedings. The first step is already done with the euro / dollar semi-parity, it seems the rest will follow as soon as world can accept.
What's in a sig?
What's in a sig?
Im pretty sure we did save you from Hitler. There are still many of veterns of WWII and they should have all the respect and honor they deserve.
If you're not one of these veterans then you need to learn the meaning of the word "we".
WE invented the wheel! Not that I was involved but I'm sure it was some human somewhere...
Geez. I'm glad someone finally "gets it." I know that we're taught the whole "French saved our asses" thing in school growing up, but for some reason almost everyone I know is more than ready to make fun of 'em if they get the chance. Just makes you wonder about all the things in DC named "Lafayette." Sure, it was 200 some odd years ago, but still.
fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.
You do have to admit though: It's kinda sad that everyone in the world knows why people hate us except us.
As a nice coincidence, my fortune at the bottom of the page right now reads: Oh, and don't forget that they have much better food.
First of all, as member of the EU, Germany has to comply with EU directives that are passed. Next, WIPO does not only not require software patents, it even forbids them (just like TRIPS).
The excuse used by software patent proponents regarding TRIPs, is article 27:
This text however explicitly uses terms which are defined nowhere else in the treaty (like "invention", "field of technology" and "inventive step"), so that signing members can define these terms themselves in such a way that they fit best in their existing laws.
According to article 52 of the the European Patent Convention, a computer program can never constitute an invention. And in the Parliament proposal of the directive, "field of technology" is defined in such a way that computer programs, maths, business methods etc do cannot belong to one (even if they're executed on a computer).
And on top of that, there's articles 7 TRIPs which is interpreted by the WTO as that the measures as implemented must ...
Most evidence points to the contrary as far as software patents are concerned.
So TRIPs does not require software patents, how does it forbid them?
Article 10 of the TRIPs treaty states:
As opposed to what a first reading would suggest, namely that this simply means that copyright protection must be available for computer programs, this article goes further. The WTO states on its website regarding article 10.1:
Since patent protection is unavailable for literary works, it can't be available for computer programs either according to TRIPs. Proponents of software patents often counter this using their interpretation of "computer program as such", which turns "computer programs with a further technical effect" into "computer-implemented inventions", which in turn would supposedly not be affected by this exclusion.
This interpretation is however invalid due to article 4 of the EU Software Copyright directive from 1991. This article states that a computer program as literary work includes the following (emphasis mine):
The WIPO Copyright Treaty also contains applicable clauses (article 10):
Donate free food here
Yes. And quite rightly so. A beheading is not a 'crying foul' matter, nor is it an excuse to score anti-US points on a tech bulletin board (provided to you, of course, by the people you seem to hate so much, the Americans). Total revulsion is surely the only acceptable reaction - two wrongs don't make a right. Accordingly, I have to regard your cheap shot as despicably low.
I'm not American and am drastically against many recent changes in the US, but please - a sense of perspective. I have many American friends, I have even more American friendly acquaintences (online forums, work etc). - it is not an evil nation. It shouts about itself rather too much and its current leadership are, at least in my opinion, somewhere between here and Alpha Centauri in terms of their grasp on reality but you're forgetting the people themselves. They'll correct it eventually, don't worry.
Cheers,
Ian (British)
you have fully revealed your ignorance....people have died on all sides, did you somehow forget the world wars
But it is currently not possible to patent trivia things!
The current law is more like an analogy to the copyright of written books. So it is currently NOT possible to simply copy a software programm, and it is NOT possibly to infringe a patented mechanism!
Remember that one of the most important patents - the mpeg layer 3 better known as mp3 - is from Germany, from the Frauenhofer Institute. And they were already able to protect their discovery with an european patent.
So all people who compare europe with the copy-all situation like practiced in some parts of asia simply speaks bullshit!
So if anyone claims that is is possibly to clone Windows in europe SIMPLY LIES!
On the other way it would be practically impossible for to simple single person to code a small piece of software without being frightend to be sued by a large company.
2 days ago there was a conference/meeting against software patens - and guess what: the main speaker was an american programmer: Richard Stallman himself!
best regards, strub
vienna, austria (mozart but NO kangaroos)
We in the US think that this is really a poke at the US, but if I recall correctly, aren't the big pushers for the software patents really from Great Britain?
Sure, the example model to NOT implement is the US, but the country most likely to push the US model for software patents into the EU would be Great Britain, methinks.
Now, will Great Britain do an end-run around the process like it was trying to do before?
I hope that France goes against software patents, as well. Go France.
Here is one USian hoping that Europe sticks this one up my country's ass, covered with habanero sauce to boot.
Would it not be ironic if Switzerland (home country of CERN...) votes for them?
(nt means nothing there.)
i had a sig, once..
The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.
gee.. what was that war that happened in the 1940's mmm....
People be anti america all you want, by doing so you are being quite american.
Ok, so that's a small country, but still.. there is some political momentum to vote against. If we can convince one mor member state to vote against, the vote will be dismissed.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Russia did a hell of a lot more than you guys did to "save us from Hitler"
Belive it or not, but Russia is the hero in our eyes not the US.
The problem with these European software patents is that they are currently in general not enforceable in a court. The reason is that the European Patent Convention forbids software patents. The European Patent Office is an independent institution however, which gets its funding from granting patents, so it creatively reinterpreted that convention. That does not change the law nor the opinion of the courts, however (except for the UK).
You're right however that we have strong copyright laws, and that simply copying other people's code is not allowed (unless they agree, like in case of GPL'd code), not even if it's just a few lines.
Donate free food here
In this way the government is not involved, and you can do it in any way you and the company like. You just have to decide what to disclose to the company before you sign the agreement.
Socialism is all about looting the productive. Without a capitalist economy to loot, it's all downhill spiral. Every industry that gets nationalized will slowly bleed to death; with medicine, it's we who will bleed.
wrong!
download the world health chart program and check correlation beetween private vs public health care systems and indicators like child survival, life expectancy, and so on.
check also the cost of health care vs GDP.
pure private health care systems seems to be less effective and less efficient as well
Software is not a tangible product and it has zero value. Only the service of producing and maintaining it has value. The EU is on the verge of acknowledging this; apparently, Americans are the only ones stupid enough to be duped by companies "monetizing every little idea," as you so succinctly put it.
pure private health care systems seems to be less effective and less efficient as well
Fairly obvious really, considering that private companies have as their primary objective the extraction of the largest possible profit margin.
How that goal leads to healthy people I simply don't know!
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
As you can see on a newswiki in addition to the abstentions of Belgium (5 votes), Luxembourg (2 votes), there are some positive statements from some eg Italian, Slovenian, Spanish etc politicians too, but it is very much in your interest keep the in touch with your government today and on Monday too (Discussion/Voting in the Council scheduled for Tue 18 May; calculate for some time for transmission of your local govt's opinion to Brussels representative!). More help (including pointer to irc) here.
I must have been living under a rock because i had no idea the EU wanted to implement US patent laws!? thats like going backwards in time! what are these people on? maybe next the EU should abolish the human rights act? how about taking back the vote from women! no im not trolling, the US patent system is stupid and im sure people in the US will agree. Good for them to vote against it, i just hope the UK does too.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.
Yeah, we yanks are really bad. Hummmm.
Vietnam, anybody? How exactly did we get into that war?
How about WWII?
or WWI?
The tradition of scalping came about why?
Who was busy giving up the bulk of the secrets to USSR during the cold war until voted out?
The french have also had more than their fair share of playing with us.Yes, they helped us. Ever since it is has been a strained relationship with France. France keeps trying to use us to try and regain their powers of old.
>Title: Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU ..Germany has decided to vote against all changes....
>Text:
Which one is it - against patents or against changes?
Never realized how popular the EU is among US based slashtoders...
Guys, do the rest of us a favor and get you butts off to there.
Just don't come back trying to sell your goods in the US, beg the US to save you from world maladies, study in US universities, feed off US culture, copy US ingenuity, etc
We need the secret key, not just the passphrase.
In that year the French were occupied by Germany.
The U.S. didn't enter into that war until 1941.
Until the end 1943 the official U.S. policy was to appease the Vichy German puppet regime.
It was only Churchill that managed to get the U.S. to reluctantly support the free French.
Since I can see no purpose for owning a gun that I would want to be legal I simply cannot follow the pro-gun-ownership movement in the USA. We have to agree to disagree on this one. I once was a very reluctant support of the EU (as most danes I suppose). The recent Bush administration and the EUs failure to contain the policies of the USA has made me change my mind. EU needs to become a true nation and we have to resolve our internal differencies in order present an alternative to the USA. Englands traditional unquestioned support of USA and the neo-liberalistic leanings of some of the new member states seems to be the biggest obstacles. While I would never use the word socialist about any european government I do feel comforted by the fact that all-out capitalism is not as common in the european nations as in the USA.
In case you do not know, I will do you a little HISTORY lesson. The US came into WW1 because the german made the FATAL error of sinking some of your ship at the wrong moment of the war (1916) 2 YEAR after it had begun. In other word, were those ship intact, US would have sit back to the other side of the pond. Furthermore US came at a time when the war was already decided (with germany on the losing side).
Now let us see another fact : WW2. US Also ONLY came into the war when Pearl Harbour occured , a FULLY 2 years in the war 1941. Should I remind you that the war started in 1939 ???
"Who was busy giving up the bulk of the secrets to USSR during the cold war until voted out?" Really ? You should please citate the number of secret "given" out by France. Furthermore you should get a list of the spying the US did in France, and the number of secret "given" out by the US & weapon given to sud american dictator to fight "communist" rebellion.
"France keeps trying to use us to try and regain their powers of old."
As opposed to US imperialism attacking country on their own despite not having the mandate from the UN and the world being against it ?
Please let us not start the game of mud throwing. A few years ago France might have had as much dirt as you, especially bungled stuff like the "rainbow warrior", but France is since long not a super power on its own anymore. Unlike the US which is abusing on economical , political front its superpower status. Dirt is cumulating so quick at US doorstep it is a shame.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I read an email sent from an MEP to the ILUG, saying that she was dead against it.
link to the email
U.S. Takes Greenpeace to Court in Unusual Trial
Thu 13 May, 2004 17:42
By Michael Christie
MIAMI (Reuters) - Greenpeace, charged with the obscure crime of "sailor mongering" that was last prosecuted 114 years ago, goes on trial on Monday in the first U.S. criminal prosecution of an advocacy group for civil disobedience.
The environmental group is accused of sailor mongering because it boarded a freighter in April 2002 that was carrying illegally felled Amazon mahogany to Miami. It says the prosecution is revenge for its criticism of the environmental policies of President Bush, whom it calls the "Toxic Texan."
Sailor mongering was rife in the 19th century when brothels sent prostitutes laden with booze onto ships as they made their way to harbor. The idea was to get the sailors so drunk they could be whisked to shore and held in bondage, and a law was passed against it in 1872. It has only been used in a court of law twice, the last time in 1890.
Greenpeace says the decision by the U.S. Attorney's Office to prosecute the organization rather than just the activists who boarded the APL Jade freighter is a sea change in policy, and a conviction would throttle free speech everywhere.
It would also be a sharp blow against Brazilian efforts to halt the trade in a hardwood so precious it is known as "green gold." It yields fatter profit margins than cocaine and is blamed for the destruction of vast swathes of the Amazon.
"Illegal logging goes on and they're bringing it to Miami and making loads of money, and we're going to trial," said Sara Holden of Greenpeace International.
The case is unprecedented, not just because of the bizarre nature of the crime.
Six Greenpeace activists were charged after the 2002 protest in choppy waters off Miami, pleaded guilty and sentenced to time served -- the weekend they spent in jail.
But U.S. prosecutors were not satisfied, and 15 months later came up with a grand jury indictment of the entire organization for sailor mongering.
FREE SPEECH CONCERNS
U.S. prosecutors argue Greenpeace did something like that when two "climbers" clambered aboard the Jade to hang a sign demanding, "President Bush: Stop Illegal Logging."
If convicted, Greenpeace could be placed on probation, and pay a $10,000 fine.
As significant as the prosecution itself, are the implications, free speech campaigners say.
Not once since the Boston Tea Party have U.S. authorities criminally prosecuted a group for political expression.
"It's ominous," said attorney Maria Kayanan of law firm Podhurst Orseck, which worked with the American Civil Liberties Union on a "friend of court" brief to back a Greenpeace demand that the government reveal who ordered the prosecution.
"It will be very chilling because advocacy groups whose members chose to engage in acts of protest which happen to violate the law will be loathe to act at all."
Greenpeace hopes to focus on mahogany during the trial, which will begin on Monday with jury selection in the U.S. District Court in Miami, under Judge Adalberto Jordan.
In one line of defense, its attorneys will argue that the activists were highlighting a crime, and giving Washington an opportunity to live up to its commitment to protect mahogany as a signatory to global treaties listing the wood as endangered.
Greenpeace Amazon campaigner Paulo Adario said a mahogany tree could be bought in the Amazon for $30. Once turned into dining tables and chairs for sale in New York or London, that same tree could be worth as much as $120,000.
Along the way, Amazon Indians are driven from their villages, officials bribed and activists assassinated.
Country-sized chunks of rain forest fall to chainsaws as other loggers take advantage of the roads the mahogany hunters carve to get at less valuable woods that would not otherwise have been worth trying to reach.
"Mahogany is a red wood, it's red like blood, it's red like shame," Adario
"fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect."
Yes becouse freedom and democracy depend on respect of peoples sensabilites.
Oh yeah and having a different opinion then the "correct" one is ignorance not diversity.....so listen up you stupid Yanks agree with the Europeans becouse they know so much about how to run a plurilistic inclusive democracy. BLA
stendec@gmail.com
gee.. what was that war that happened in the 1940's mmm....
You mean the one the Soviets beat the Germans in?
No secret key is needed. It's symmetric encryption.
(With respect to patent-abuse, anything can and will be abused. The question is always whether such negative side-effects can be suppressed enough to net a clear benefit.)
I assume /. has addressed these questions earlier, but I couldn't find succinct answers...
Seeing bad movies only encourages them. Watch responsibly
I don't see anywhere here mentioned that RMS was in "the new Europe" last week having lectures about software patents.
He had one lecture in Prague and one in my hometown Bratislava (possibly also elsewhere, don't know). I actually stood like a meter from RMS last Friday! The lecture was a really great experience.
Oh, I don't like those multinationals... no, I prefer our homemade international companies.
1/2 a :-)
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
Yeah, the Third Reich surely corrected itself.
THANK GOD.
At least I have location now to move my website too without someone claiming my XML publishing engine I wrote violates thier patent.
In fact, maybe I will just move myself AND my website to germany....
-Hackus
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Our PM, and some other Ministers of the Crown, seem to do things that make sense only if they are acting as agents of a foreign power (the USA).
That's treason in my book.
>>>>truth; beauty; unix.<<<<
Maybe the countries are run by the people, but the EU is not!
The PARLIAMENT is the representational body of the european citizens. The COUNCILS are the decision makers... notice something?
Councils consist of the ministers of the member states of the corresponding subject. E. g. the council of foreign affairs consists of the foreign ministers of the member states. Beyond the election in their corresponding member state these people are not elected to represent the european population. I don't know about you, but i make a difference between my votes for local, regional and nationwide elections.
Therefore, people are petitioning Chirac or our own BMJ (Bundesministerium der Justiz - Department of Justice), because they are making the decision, bypassing the elected body of representation, the parliament of the EU.
The parliament *voted against* so called software patents last November...
This is flawed, simple as that, and luckily some of the newcomers (above all Czechia) noticed this flaw and started lobbying for an overhaul.
Well, just FYI.
The reason the French helped the Americans was to piss off the English; nothing more, nothing less. France wasn't even on the 1st republic when they got involved in the American Revolutionary War; they are now on the 5th Republic.
America, the same republic that exists today, on the other hand, helped save the French in both the 1st and 2nd World Wars. Furthermore, America was left cleaning up after France in Indochina, as well as the Middle East. If you want to compliment France for what they did three centuries ago, then surely you should also criticise them for all the shit they pulled since then, mainly dicking around Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Americas and comporting themselves far worse than the British Empire on many occasions. Some of the positive effects of the British Empire can still be felt today. Name some positive effects of French colonialism; I can name plenty of the negative effects than can still be seen today.
As for France's opposition to the Iraq war, lets not forget the oil-for-food scandal and all the weapons France was selling to Iraq. Here's an article detailing some of the shit Germany, Russia, Britain, France, and the US pulled in Iraq. In the defence of the US and the Britain, they went to war to set some of their mistakes right. What have the Germans, Russians, and French done (aside from riding their high horse)?
Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
The best customer is a repeat customer. :)
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
This sort of legal definition.
Thanks, I've added an
ASMP stub article on wikipedia based on info from there.
True story : My dad has had 5 hip replacements, and is already planning to have a sixth. Now if he were a centipede, that might make sense. I think you're theory above explains a lot.
And so where copyrights - limited in time - but Disneyland laws keep extending those "limited periods" to suit big commercial intrests. What happens if, e.g. MS or SCO or IBM suddenly feels the urge to extend the lifetime of their patent portfolio ? Will they say "nah, 20 yrs of profit is enough" ?
"France is a nuclear power too."
So is pakistan. So that's kind of where we would consider France as a military power.
All that said, Bush must be voted out of office. I wish he would resign; it would save us a few more months of bad government. But we can wait another few months to be rid of the idiot.
"What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU?"
Free unfettered speech. The kind that will offend my neighbor, my government, anyway.
EU does not have this right, nor do they believe they need it. The US stands along on free speech, although Bush is not the best example of how to defend it. But he'll be gone soon through the ballot. Good riddence to the idiot.
"You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. (...) What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU?"
Free unfettered speech. The kind that will offend my neighbor, my government, anyway.
See, America has this great freedom in theory (First Amendment etc.) but in practice you had McCarthyism, trying to choke anti-war movement regarding Vietnam and the latest anti-terrorist/muslim/arab selfcensorship.
Ever noticed the uproar over a few coffins? Imagine showing their bloody bullet-ridden corpses lying in Iraq. Or how many think the tortured Iraqis "deserved what they got" in the US prisons?
The only place where we're more conservative than the US is when it comes to racism, which I think is your error in judgement, not ours. Think of it as class action libel/slander, which isn't legal neither here nor there.
We may not have that many great quotes, being spread over dozens of constitutions, some that say little about it at all. But I think you will find your freedom of speech is greater than in the US, whether you want to talk about drugs, abortion, religion, nudity, pornography, war or pretty much any other controversial topic.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
...for EU to horribly fail in its attempt to become the world's economic center and surpass America.
More statism, more government, more people being coddled by bureaucrats...
Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
I did say Bush was an enemy of the 1st amendment.
But try to sell Nazi memorabilia in France. So much for free speech.
Free speech isn't about protecting popular speech, free speech protects vile, ugly horribly speech. The kind that makes you "do something about it".
The german war started in the 1930s, not that the US noticed.
Having lived both in the US and the EU I don't even know where to start. You couldn't be more wrong about your concept of liberty by Permit only in the EU. All EU countries have constitutions that guarantee citizens right and protect their human rights - like not being arrested without due process - something that has now happened twice to American citizens who have been labeled enemy combatants and were denied their basic right to make a call to get a lawyer. Such abuse of executive power is simply inconceivable in the EU at this point.
But what I find even scarier is the culture of intimidation in the US (where I currently live again). In Germany it is perfectly normal to strike up a conversation about politics at the office e.g. at your lunch break. In Corporate America more often then not policies discourage the employees to discuss such controversial topics. Democracy can not work without public discourse. I think this is actually the underlying reason why the democractic processes are so broken in the US - people in this country do not talk about political topics any more because they are afraid they may offend somebody and fear the repercussions. A colleague of mine actually told me that she is afraid to show her political leanings because she knows that her boss doesn't share them and she's afraid that she wouldn't get a promotion if he knew. I never heart a similar sentiment expressed to me in Germany.
Hi Steve, I'm from Holland ... yes, the very nation that in 1777 fired the first official salute at an American frigate... thereby we OFFICIALLY were the FIRST country to recognize the independent state of America.
Let's see the libaration in 1945 as payback. Okay?
But let me tell you... you liberated us for the same reason as we helped Washington arm his people to kick the English out: we were unable to trade in English territory, so better help someone else in power...
That was what America was doing in Europe... both in WW1 as in WW2 (and Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Grenada, Panama, Honduras, and you name 'm....
No problem with that, but let's not make a glorious story about it. Okay?
The return of Jews brings hatred because their bakery's won't serve non-jewish people. They just don't put up the sign 'non-Jews not allowed', but it does happen today. You don't believe me? Check Antwerpen, Belgium?
I was there recently and the situation scared me. I suddenly understood why the Belgians are voting party's that say: - we will make them sell us bread or - we will kick them out
aaaaawwww
The Russians indeed did a lot more... for one thing: Stalin didn't stop (or wasn't made to stop) at 6.000.000 jews.... ahum....
You can't claim that the French acted in their own interests during the American revolution any more than the US acted their own interests during WW1 and WW2.
You sound like a Rupert Murdoch-bot.
Hands in my pocket
"9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness ..."
Well maybe not - if we continue to insist on being civilized. Were we brought to the terrorist's level sufficiently (say, a few well placed and important attacks), those bombs and missles could effectively quell any resistance. After all, it's hard to offer resistance when everyone is dead and your country is little more than a smoking radioactive crater.
These people are effective at using our conscience against us, hiding behind mosques and children. To them, this is a sign of our weakness. In dealing with this sort of foe, we might have to do far more than we are already doing. It's not nice, but then, neither is war.
We do not win we because we choose not to win - not that way at least. It is as it was in Vietnam. It's not a lack of weapons, it's a lack of will. The Iraq situation is 'winnable' but at what cost - politically and otherwise?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
It's totally amazing how all of a sudden no one wants to remember U.N. resolutions dealing with Saddam's WMD's (Yes, where are they? Syria perhaps?), and how the French and Germans sold us out through the U.N./Iraq's 'Oil for Food' deal. Sorry to ruin your lucritive deal boys, but we do have to worry about national security here. At some point to actually should DO SOMETHING instead of fret about whether or not someone's got something they shouldn't have.
Remember: Saddam could've avoided all of this - why didn't he let the inspectors in if he had nothing to hide?
So this is what we're to expect from our so-called friends? And then you have the balls to bitch about what a hellhole Iraq might turn into! If it does, it will be thanks to you and yours for not helping end it sooner. Don't presume to lecture the U.S. about foreign policy when you let things like Bosnia happen in your own respective backyards. Just how long were you going to let that travesty go on, anyway?
So you don't want to help us in Iraq? Fine. But if Iraq DOES become the next Iran or worse, just remember that being the non-muslim nations you are, you are target #2 on the list (see: Madrid bombings). If you won't fight - even for yourselves, you'd better stock up on burkas and prayer blankets. In case you hadn't noticed, these wackos aren't exactly taking 'non' for an answer and I don't think you'll be able to change their minds with some fine wine or escargot.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
You can't claim that the French acted in their own interests during the American revolution any more than the US acted their own interests during WW1 and WW2.
I never claimed any such thing.
The first paragraph of my post was meant to illustrate that the French didn't do what they did simply out of the goodness of their hearts. The second paragraph was intended to give some historical perspective to their actions.
Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
> US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40
Just more Washington-rithmetic.
Once you add in military retirement payments, Social Security (empty "trust fund"), etc., the national debt is $30 trillion.
gewg_
I've been reading in the health press that European government has been pushing for (and may have already succeeded in) making large doses of vitamins illegal. This has been tried in the past in the US, and with rare exceptions (folic acid) has been stopped by public outrage.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I'm European, and I don't care much about Americans bashing the French. That being said, it is extremely hypocritical for Europeans to criticize the U.S. for this, given the current European hatred towards the U.S. I've been fortunate enought to travel to the U.S. quite a lot, and had the opportunity to work there for several months last year. I haven't seen a lot of dislike towards Europe there. Quite the contrary. In Europe, however, we're frighteningly united in our hatred of America. In fact, it seems to be the only thing really uniting us, and I'm not proud of that.
I really hope things work out in Europe when reality hits, and we need to agree on more constructive things than hating America.
On another issue, I would like to say that calling the EU "the biggest peace project ever", and stuff like that, is a load of crap. It's like saying the U.S. deserves the peace price because California and Washington aren't and war. Europe comes up with all these stupid reasons for worshiping itself these days, so it is certainly no better than America in that department.
..If they don't like what you say, and label you a terrorist, you can just dissappear.
The PATRIOT act nuked anything "freedom" in the US, anyone speaking out is on thin ice.
It will eventually come full circle, as these things always do, but in the meantime, it's tinfoil hat time.
Since both france and the USA have enough nukes to char broil each other. And since when has talking about going to war against a democratic, peaceful, and nuke bearing western european country been a sane thing to talk about in the USA? It's that kind of humanity risking talk that causes anti-americanism.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
- fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.
Shesh, no sense of humor? Loosen up. It's no wonder Americans don't like the French. You misunderstand our cultureBack to the topic... I find it amazing that the land of the Berne Convention may stand against software patents. The French should really make up their minds. Do they want to screw the public or not?
With the exception of outright foreign loans, international trade is always in equal balance.
The 'trade deficit' is a myth made up to rally support for tarrifs, trade blocs, and that sort of thing.
Speckpot?
Anybody seem to notice government regulatory monopoly over healeth care in the U.S. and the E.U.? Capitalism: Help the patient and yourself. Socalism: Help everybody while costing awhole lot more in the long run, while trying to central plan everything ahead of time. Supply deficiency. How come so many people talk about how government employees are so lazy and worth the money, but then want to put more and more under control of government?
Speckpot?
The problem isn't corporations, the problem is government and laws. We can all agree that human beings are generally very selfish people.
But how do corrupt people get ahead? By the help of government; laws, regulations, and bribery.
"Soft money" or money given to a politician during election is a matter of free speech. I have the right to suppor whatever candidate I want. (I won't be supporting Kerry, Nader, or Bush, for that matter.)
Anyway,
People seem to not understand that if a monopoly forms, it is by one of two ways: naturally or by help of government.
Now by very definition, if a monopoly forms naturally, it cannot be a good thing. This means that the people are getting what they want.
Now, if the monopoly forms by exploiting government laws and bribery, then it is a bad thing. The people are not getting what they want. Politicians are benefitting, as well as wealthy elite who are essentially politicians.
Unions are not going to help at all. The Union is more or less another term for government, where the leaders on top exploit those below them for their benefit (largely). Workers can earn fair wages without Unions...
Anyway, getting off of subject.
I'll be damned if I'm going to believe that the European Union, or any socialist entity, is going to be better than a free market capitalist society in terms of strength of economy. The reason the U.S. economy is slowing down, is because of government intervention (tarrifs, taxes, unnecessary or stupid laws and regulations, etc). This is not capitalism.
Free market capitalism (the only way capitalism should be used) is about hands off economics. Let the market (aka the people) run things by what they want, need, create, produce, serve, and purchase.
- - - - -
No nonsense about all "the robber barons" either.
Go read "Myth of the Robber Barons", and save me the time and effort. It was all about new government laws allowing exploitation of workers.
Speckpot?
The problem with these European software patents is that they are currently in general not enforceable in a court.
Errr, did you really mean to say the problem is that they can't be enforced? I'd say the problem was that they were issued at all.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
In the case of health care, the repeat customer is a broke customer with two mortgages and three jobs.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Exocets are pretty outdated these days. Despite this they are difficult to stop at mach 1 and 4 feet above a choppy sea surface. /missiles missiles are optimised for mach 2 missiles travelling at height (patriot and sm2 are names that fill me with confidence). In the single case of an american warship attacked by them (in a war zone - they were awake) they were unaware of even the launch.
Even when fired as singletons they are rediculously difficult to stop, and american anti aircraft
Of course french anti shipping missile technology has not stood still. We have the latest versions of AMX (exocet replacement) to be rumoured with a dialable sea skimming speed up to Mach 3. It is also understood to have stealth characteristics.
How long do you think a Carrier Battle Group would last under such a high tech onslaught.
Assuming the french still found it amusing to keep to conventional warheads.
Of course , they don't rely on these for ultimate defence, the french have a heavy armoury of ICBMs which they have vowed ( in cold war times) to launch on the next country to invade them.
Who knows they may have enough plutonium and deuterium to blow a hole in the Earths Crust and kill everyone.
Those magical military technologys are only magical against people who don't understand and have not harnessed it for their own use.
I find the childish threats against France both laughable and Nazi. Attack them and they will give you a free one way ticket to the stone age.
The US doesn't have any anti-mining capacity worth their salt.
BTW, thanks for that.
Donate free food here
How come so many people talk about how government employees are so lazy and worth the money, but then want to put more and more under control of government?
I think you're suggesting that the problem with government controlled bodies is that the employees are not accountable, so fiefdoms and employment protection rackets get set up, and people think they can get away with whatever they want.
However, private control and government control are not the only alternatives. Various forms of quango can be formed. It just takes the right amount of imagination to find the optimal shade of gray between black and white.
Clever people who know engineering - I'm sure slashdot is full of them - are well aware that optimal solutions are rarely to be found at the extremes, but generally somewhere between them.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
Talk of parking an aircraft carrier off the coast of France is just that, talk. Any security strategist with half a brain knows you don't try intimidation tactics with a declared nuclear power.
what about all the discussion regarding banning head scarfs, head caps and crosses in schools?
thats a speach statement
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/laenderinfos /laender/laender_ausgabe_html?type_id=12&land_id=1 88
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
I said 1940's.. not 1940. And even if what you say is 100% true(I really have no idea, i've never heard this before), we(and by we I don't mean the US alone) still did it, even if it was Churchill who convinced us to do so.
Is Germany declaring war on us again? Next the Japanese are going to DDOS Pearl Harbor's ISP's!
What?
the patent lawyers are ill-equipped to discern
between hardware and osfwtare patents.. Its stupid enough because patents are only supposed to be for hardware implemented technologies.. Its just because software can be implemented in hardware that software patents exist, even though software is nothing more than instructions.. I think it stupid that the US even has software patents.. I've applied for a sofwtare patent, but a requirement of it is you implement something with hardware that relies on the software.. If you can't do that, its not patentable.. You have to prove that the hardware relies on the software to control the hardware process.. So you can't patent an algorithm unless its tied to a particular piece of hardware.. And you have to prove that the process is unique..
I think some people just try to patent software to get their names in the newspapers..
Just say no to license servers!!
Check out this link.
Somehow all of this seems very odd. The same chairs as in Abu Ghrabi, yellow walls like there, orange prison uniform, weird accents, fat executors, etc.
LIARS!! THEYRE ALL A BUNCH OF LIARS. I wonder if he has put into someone's pocket.
Pharmacy laws and formularies vary by country, but when I was in France the other year and ran out of blood pressure medicine, I could walk into the drugstore and buy it over the counter, and I could also buy codeine over the counter. (Codeine wasn't OTC in Denmark or Lithuania, but it is in Canada and Australia.) I think they also had penicillins OTC as well - my cousin from Costa Rica was shocked that she couldn't get it OTC in the US when she moved here.
Friends from Germany and Hungary tell me that herbal medicine is much more common and accepted in Europe, and that doctors are as likely to recommend that as to push chemicals at them.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
But even though the US hasn't been consistent about respecting the rights that it claims to guarantee to everybody (including citizens and noncitizens), the right is there, and if a bunch of hateful thugs like the Nazis or KKK or Revolutionary Communist Party want to have a parade down Main Street, they can do it, and the ACLU has properly helped make sure they government lets them do it even if it doesn't want to, because free speech is more important than political correctness. In most of Europe they can only do it if they're Communist hateful thugs, not Nazi hateful thugs. These days the police in small towns really hate it when thugs like that have parades, not only because it makes their town look bad, but because it can be really hard to protect the thugs from crowds from throwing rocks and bottles at them, and the thugs often encourage such problems because they not only get to feel macho, but they get to sue the town if they're injured and also get to sue the town if they aren't allowed to have their parade. (A friend of mine was on a small town government that had to put up with this annoyance from an outsider group. It's much less common in big cities, because the police forces are larger and tougher, and while nobody expects New York City's or Chicago's police to respect the rights of free speech, both sides are less likely to risk messing with them.)
Also, Revealing Official Secrets isn't a crime in the US unless you're an official who's been entrusted with them by the government, or unless you're a spy for an enemy power. So The New York Times was able to publish The Pentagon Papers (including a lot of secrets about the war in Vietnam having become a major war based on lies about the Gulf of Tonkin events), and The Progressive could publish their article on H-bomb secrets, but those were both edgy enough cases that they had to fight their way up to the Supreme Court to stay out of trouble. On the other hand, if the evidence against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg had been legitimate instead of largely fictitious, it would probably have been legal to convict them for revealing the H-bomb secrets to the Soviets. But if you've got a security clearance, you're not allowed to reveal any classified information you received, and if you violate that you're definitely convictable.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks