...See Footnote 8 on page 7, and Footnote 9 on pages 8 and 9. Which clearly states that "Apple does not retain this GPS Information in its database". Ohh, and "location-based services [has to be} toggled to "On"."
Nice try, though
Right, despite that on page 12 it says the total opposite? Did you actually bother to read it?
FTFPDF: "Apple collects anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point, Cell Tower, and GPS information from devices that have location services turned on, have explicitly authorized apps to use their location, and are actively running one of the apps. Anonymized Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS coordinates may also be recorded when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network."
So no, it's not just when Location Services is on.
Footnote 7 is regarding sending the data to GOOGLE, not Apple. Footnote 9 is regarding them not storing GPS data in their database. No mention of other tracking, AGPS/Triangulation/Wi-Fi points.
I really suggest you read legal documents more carefully. I'm not a lawyer but even I can see the gaping holes in this one.
No, the differences is that Apple isn't doing what you claim they do,
Hang on; they're legally entitled to have your location data, but they're not doing it? Despite you agreeing to it? Where did you get this information?
while Google promised that their Street View cars only collected WiFi data needed for their location services, nothing else
Yes, I am not happy with Google tracking either. Thankfully there is a class action lawsuit in Germany. Thankfully I keep my router fairly secured, and it's not all that hard to change a MAC address.
But, this article is about the iPhone... but a fanboy like you has probably already forgotten.
Your phone company keeps records of where you are at any time based on which towers your attached to. Law enforcement can get that data.
The phone company also has access to this data, who knows what they are using it for (hopefully to place towers near congestion)?
Apple is not alone in this It appears Tom Tom/ Google are using their mapping app to get peoples speeds to get traffic info to feed back into the system...
In the UK at least, law enforcement and other uses of location data is logged and restricted, often requiring a warrant. There's some fairly tight controls, thankfully. Though not tight enough, obviously!
If TomTom and Google are doing it, I'd be surprised. Google's Android explicitly asks you and makes it clear it will give your location data when enabling location services; even if no apps are using it. It's easy to turn off. I can't speak for TomTom; but mine isn't connected to their website whatsoever, neither live, nor updated later. If it is in their terms, there should be an outcry too.
Mind you, if TomTom are logging this, I'm amazed the UK police haven't grabbed this data and started fining people for speeding!
Apple are being a little cheeky enabling this for all users without making it clear it's happening. They're also not making it clear what it'll be used for - and most importantly, haven't made it clear that disabling location services disables tracking. They've explained it doesn't completely on the top of page 12.
Using lat/long data, Google maps can't even place my house closer than the OTHER end of the street, a frickin' block and a half away.
And have you EVER seen those little "stickpins" actually land on the exact address you're looking for?
The data just ain't that accurate. And when you go inside a building... POOF! No location data AT ALL.
Try doing that when you're nearer to some access points that have been tracked with Apple's new database (they used to use Google and Skypoint?).
Location accuracy really depends on where you are. Willing to take that gamble?
When you install an Android app it says very clearly "Access your location data". It is not buried in legalese. You really cannot compare a screen that contains a handful of bullet points to a EULA, they aren't even in the same league.
Yes, but it's NOT buried. There is a config screen where you can turn "Location Services" on and OFF on an app-by-app basis, or even GLOBALLY, WHENEVER YOU CHOOSE (not just at "install" time. And, you notice it says "APPROXIMATE location."?
Seems like Apple has made it so the USER is in control ALWAYS, instead of JUST when they are in a hurry to use teh new shiny app they just downloaded. Because, let's face it, most people will click through ANYTHING to get to the thing they want. And be honest, do you REALLY remember all the various permissions you gave EVERY app when you installed it?
Next time, try READING before posting. Apple actually did it right. Android, not so much.
Actually, disabling location services on the iPhone doesn't necessarily stop them collecting your location data. See page 13. I've posted quite a few times about it.
With Android it clearly says: "Allow Google's location service to collect anonymous location data. Collection will occur even when no applications are running. Agree/Disagree?"
Btw, I don't own Android or an iPhone. I'm doing this for the sake of educating people on privacy.
As someone else mentioned, Google Android asks you first; "Allow Google's location service to collect anonymous location data. Collection will occur even when no applications are running. Agree/Disagree".
That's a bit clearer than hiding it in the terms and conditions.
But the location system can be turned off by the user at ANY TIME. Turn it off until needed. Saves (a lot!) of battery, anyway.
Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.".
There's also no mention of the cell-phone triangulation data that they have to collect for the authorities, and where this will be used.
PROVE that the system isn't sufficiently anonymous, don't just ASSert it.
Don't like your APPROXIMATE location being ANONYMOUSLY reported? TURN THE FUCKING SERVICE OFF!!!
How do you disable cell phone triangulation? And do you never use Wi-fi on your iPhone?
Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.".
Collecting the data isn't a service; it doesn't say anywhere that the data is not collected by them if location services is disabled - plus you've explicitly allowed them to do so in the terms.
Actually, according to the PDF, data is collected by them only if location services is enabled. It says so right on page 7, and again on page 8. You say you read the document, but apparently you didn't.
Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.". It goes on as well.
I know 13 pages is a lot to read for some people, but did you just stop at page 8?
PROVE IT yourself. How can cell-tower triangulation be disabled? How would this increase the battery life?
WiFi hotspot triangulation stuff, which is only accurate to about 1/4 MILE
Well, that really depends how close you are to a wireless access point or cell phone tower. Sure, if you're only near one transmitter, it will be around half a mile. It could be down to a meter. How do you know it's always going to be 1/4 a mile?
And even when I turn it on, it doesn't report my location to RIM, or my cell phone carrier.
At least as far as YOU know.
Well, I'm going by what my cell phone provider and carrier are legally allowed to do in the contract I've signed, so yeah. Police can access this with a warrant though. There's generally some controls over who has access to that, and the info is logged. Who knows what Apple will do with it?
As far as I am aware, no other mobile manufacturer have put terms in that "Your location data will be stored and sold".
Neither does Apple.
From Apple's Terms; "Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. "
Oh yeah, of course they'll give it to their 'partners' for 'free'. That's so much 'better'.
So the difference between Apple and Google is that Google are asking and making it clear that "Collection will occur even when no applications are running". Presumably you can also disable on Android?
...whereas Apple are hiding it in their Terms and conditions, and making it unknown whether this functionality can be disabled by disabling Location Services.
Still fairly evil, but at least it's CLEAR what's happening, and obvious to the user the implications.
Apple seem to be trying to keep it a secret when location data is being recorded, and possibly might have made it impossible to disable.
I hope you didn't buy an Android phone or a BlackBerry or a Nokia then. Because *any* phone with a GPS can track and report your location.
Apple is late to the party as the other players have been doing this for years.
Nokia, Blackberry and Android don't have this in their terms and conditions. If they're doing it, I'm pretty sure they'd be tracking me illegally.
Not only that, but I can easily disable location and AGPS on my mobile, and - so far as I have seen - it doesn't upload data back to the mobile phone manufacturer nightly either.
So no. They've not been doing it for years. Only Apple have been doing it for years, and are now extending it to be able to do it all the time, and not just collecting it for themselves when it's been allowed by an 'app'.
This isn't about the iPhone. All phones are capable of revealing your location. If you're concerned, as you say, about this then you need to make this not be about the iPhone because it isn't iPhone-specific. Any smartphone with a GPS has this ability. Any cellphone connected to a cell network has this ability. If this is a subject that matters to you than don't focus in on one product.
Yes, this is about the iPhone. Apple have explicitly put this into the iPhone terms. My cell-phone operator hasn't put this into my terms. I have already checked.
As far as I am aware, no other mobile manufacturer have put terms in that "Your location data will be stored and sold".
Cell-phone triangulation information has tight(ish) controls in the UK, as I've already explained.
So which other mobile phone manufacturers have put in a clause that allows them to stalk you all day?
Given how much AT&T and Apple love each other right now(ie. not-at-all-divorced-but-can't-afford-to-move-out), I'd say that it is only sensible to assume that both parties are, independently, gathering data hand over fist, by the methods open to them.
AT&T has the cell site stuff, which implies location, call termination, and unencrypted data, while Apple has the OS, which has to go a little more lightly on the GPS, for battery life reasons; but otherwise rules the show in terms of data collection...
So, essentially this document is meaningless, because Apple are already collecting and using this data. I don't know what AT&T are like, but in the UK there's controls over who has access to cell-phone triangulation.
Obviously there's no controls if this data is given over willingly to Apple. To me, that makes this a massive privacy problem. I'm amazed how few people care, and how many refuse to see the obviousness of the risks.
If you are so concerned about keeping your location secret, as you appear to be, then don't buy a cell phone. Pure and simple.
That's exactly the reason I didn't buy an iPhone. Unfortunately a LOT of people I've mentioned this to aren't aware of this tracking agreement. Privacy is important and I find it important to educate others.
Sure, there's triangulation possibilities with mobile phones, but at least in the UK these (I understand) are under fairly tight controls because of the cell-tower ownership. I think even the police need a warrant. Now Apple are collecting this without any real safeguards, just their own guarantee that it's anonymous - and that worked out great for AOL didn't it?
If he doesn't let third party apps, Apple won't get any data either. End of story.
WRONG. Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.".
Sorry, Slashdot somehow thought I wasn't logged in, despite posting fine lower down!
If you have a problem with it then - and I'll even bold the text so you don't miss it - TURN IT OFF!
Sure, you can turn it off on an app-by-app basis, but nowhere in that document (yes, I read it), does it say that they won't still collect data for Apples' own use. Nor does it say that disabling it stops them collecting this data, or selling it on.
Just because you've disabled GPS doesn't mean they can't use AGPS or cell-tower triangulation to collect your location. It simply says that "location services capabilities" can be disabled. Collecting the data isn't a service; it doesn't say anywhere that the data is not collected by them if location services is disabled - plus you've explicitly allowed them to do so in the terms.
If AT&T are collecting it all the time, Apple can easily do it too. Does disabling it mean your privacy is fine? You simply cannot be sure, and this document doesn't clear that up.
I wouldn't let my Government install a tracking device to me, why let Apple do it? They already charge enough! There's no chance of stopping them, at least until someone has the money to take them to court.
I've actually written an email to Apple, suggesting a way we could work together to use this data (slightly humourously, but the theory seems sound - and legal!) you can read it here [monkeyboi.com]. Would be interested to hear any comments or any other uses this could be put to.
Nowhere does it say that disabling it for an app will disable collection of data to Apple. If AT&T are collecting it, there's no reason that Apple aren't either.
That's why this site is failing. There's no duplication checks, and each request is specific. I'd have thought a better way is to be able to submit a request, and have others submit 'parts' to that act, which visitors can agree on a one-by-one basis. Still make it open, but better moderated. Now where do I know a decent moderation system?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Of course there are, but should we ignore child abuse, because theft is a 'bigger' problem?
You are only seeing the downsides because you choose to ignore the upsides; how many people's quality of life becomes better due to these games?
I'd love to know how spending loads of money on tickets, clothing, and all pushed by celebrities with enough money of their own means there is any better 'quality of life'. Care to explain that?
There is more to life than just work work work after all.
Please tell my boss that when I want to watch the snooker at work! Most companies are fine paying people while leaving the football on, purely because of its' popularity.
If it's not immoral, then please explain to me how the upsides offset all of these downsides.
Sure, I might have got my figures a bit wrong; but everything I've said still stands, and football negatively affects social and economy greatly, often the lower-classes.
Hopefully at the very least I've made a few fanatics think a little deeper (seems it from the replies I got!), than about some pseudo-rapists shepherding some leather into an outdoor cupboard
i have never understood why some people take such great pride in hating something
Easy, for me at least to answer. Popular football causes violence, racism, hours lost at work, wasted money, hours of TV and news coverage is lost; and a small minority. who are already rich, are the only ones to benefit.
Speaking of national football, at least in the UK; Manchester Untied owe the banks around £2.2 Billion (a million million, not a US thousand million). That money would pay for about a tenth of the cost of the war in Iraq to the UK. That's just one football club. Most football clubs in the UK are in debt.
Not just that, but at least in the UK, many people see those who don't support Football as unpatriotic - when they themselves are only patriotic during football games.
I believe it's morally wrong to support national and international football because of these, and loads more reasons. Many people don't realise what cost football has, and what little it does. Does that answer your question?
Slashdot Mirror
...See Footnote 8 on page 7, and Footnote 9 on pages 8 and 9. Which clearly states that "Apple does not retain this GPS Information in its database". Ohh, and "location-based services [has to be} toggled to "On"."
Nice try, though
Right, despite that on page 12 it says the total opposite? Did you actually bother to read it?
FTFPDF: "Apple collects anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point, Cell Tower, and GPS information from devices that have location services turned on, have explicitly authorized apps to use their location, and are actively running one of the apps. Anonymized Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS coordinates may also be recorded when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network."
So no, it's not just when Location Services is on.
Footnote 7 is regarding sending the data to GOOGLE, not Apple. Footnote 9 is regarding them not storing GPS data in their database. No mention of other tracking, AGPS/Triangulation/Wi-Fi points.
I really suggest you read legal documents more carefully. I'm not a lawyer but even I can see the gaping holes in this one.
No, the differences is that Apple isn't doing what you claim they do,
Hang on; they're legally entitled to have your location data, but they're not doing it? Despite you agreeing to it? Where did you get this information?
while Google promised that their Street View cars only collected WiFi data needed for their location services, nothing else
Yes, I am not happy with Google tracking either. Thankfully there is a class action lawsuit in Germany. Thankfully I keep my router fairly secured, and it's not all that hard to change a MAC address.
But, this article is about the iPhone... but a fanboy like you has probably already forgotten.
Simple question. How would you feel if your Government asked you to carry a tracking device with you at all times?
Further leading question: Who do you trust more with your location data? Apple, or your Government?
Your phone company keeps records of where you are at any time based on which towers your attached to. Law enforcement can get that data. The phone company also has access to this data, who knows what they are using it for (hopefully to place towers near congestion)? Apple is not alone in this It appears Tom Tom/ Google are using their mapping app to get peoples speeds to get traffic info to feed back into the system...
In the UK at least, law enforcement and other uses of location data is logged and restricted, often requiring a warrant. There's some fairly tight controls, thankfully. Though not tight enough, obviously!
If TomTom and Google are doing it, I'd be surprised. Google's Android explicitly asks you and makes it clear it will give your location data when enabling location services; even if no apps are using it. It's easy to turn off. I can't speak for TomTom; but mine isn't connected to their website whatsoever, neither live, nor updated later. If it is in their terms, there should be an outcry too.
Mind you, if TomTom are logging this, I'm amazed the UK police haven't grabbed this data and started fining people for speeding!
Apple are being a little cheeky enabling this for all users without making it clear it's happening. They're also not making it clear what it'll be used for - and most importantly, haven't made it clear that disabling location services disables tracking. They've explained it doesn't completely on the top of page 12.
Using lat/long data, Google maps can't even place my house closer than the OTHER end of the street, a frickin' block and a half away. And have you EVER seen those little "stickpins" actually land on the exact address you're looking for? The data just ain't that accurate. And when you go inside a building... POOF! No location data AT ALL.
Try doing that when you're nearer to some access points that have been tracked with Apple's new database (they used to use Google and Skypoint?).
Location accuracy really depends on where you are. Willing to take that gamble?
When you install an Android app it says very clearly "Access your location data". It is not buried in legalese. You really cannot compare a screen that contains a handful of bullet points to a EULA, they aren't even in the same league.
Yes, but it's NOT buried. There is a config screen where you can turn "Location Services" on and OFF on an app-by-app basis, or even GLOBALLY, WHENEVER YOU CHOOSE (not just at "install" time. And, you notice it says "APPROXIMATE location."? Seems like Apple has made it so the USER is in control ALWAYS, instead of JUST when they are in a hurry to use teh new shiny app they just downloaded. Because, let's face it, most people will click through ANYTHING to get to the thing they want. And be honest, do you REALLY remember all the various permissions you gave EVERY app when you installed it? Next time, try READING before posting. Apple actually did it right. Android, not so much.
Actually, disabling location services on the iPhone doesn't necessarily stop them collecting your location data. See page 13. I've posted quite a few times about it.
With Android it clearly says: "Allow Google's location service to collect anonymous location data. Collection will occur even when no applications are running. Agree/Disagree?"
Btw, I don't own Android or an iPhone. I'm doing this for the sake of educating people on privacy.
I guess then Android is evil then, too, because Google collects "Anonymized" data through it's "Location Services", too
As someone else mentioned, Google Android asks you first; "Allow Google's location service to collect anonymous location data. Collection will occur even when no applications are running. Agree/Disagree".
That's a bit clearer than hiding it in the terms and conditions.
But the location system can be turned off by the user at ANY TIME. Turn it off until needed. Saves (a lot!) of battery, anyway.
Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.".
There's also no mention of the cell-phone triangulation data that they have to collect for the authorities, and where this will be used.
PROVE that the system isn't sufficiently anonymous, don't just ASSert it.
Prior art (AOL) and this suggestion.
BTW, what is the going rate for astroturfing AGAINST Apple?
It's a free service, call it "for the public good".
Don't like your APPROXIMATE location being ANONYMOUSLY reported? TURN THE FUCKING SERVICE OFF!!!
How do you disable cell phone triangulation? And do you never use Wi-fi on your iPhone?
Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.".
Collecting the data isn't a service; it doesn't say anywhere that the data is not collected by them if location services is disabled - plus you've explicitly allowed them to do so in the terms.
Actually, according to the PDF, data is collected by them only if location services is enabled. It says so right on page 7, and again on page 8. You say you read the document, but apparently you didn't.
Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.". It goes on as well.
I know 13 pages is a lot to read for some people, but did you just stop at page 8?
And with my blackberry, I can turn it off.
And so you can with the iPhone, too. And it really DOES turn it OFF, because the battery life improves with Location Services off.
PROVE IT yourself. How can cell-tower triangulation be disabled? How would this increase the battery life?
WiFi hotspot triangulation stuff, which is only accurate to about 1/4 MILE
Well, that really depends how close you are to a wireless access point or cell phone tower. Sure, if you're only near one transmitter, it will be around half a mile. It could be down to a meter. How do you know it's always going to be 1/4 a mile?
And even when I turn it on, it doesn't report my location to RIM, or my cell phone carrier.
At least as far as YOU know.
Well, I'm going by what my cell phone provider and carrier are legally allowed to do in the contract I've signed, so yeah. Police can access this with a warrant though. There's generally some controls over who has access to that, and the info is logged. Who knows what Apple will do with it?
As far as I am aware, no other mobile manufacturer have put terms in that "Your location data will be stored and sold".
Neither does Apple.
From Apple's Terms; "Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. "
Oh yeah, of course they'll give it to their 'partners' for 'free'. That's so much 'better'.
So the difference between Apple and Google is that Google are asking and making it clear that "Collection will occur even when no applications are running". Presumably you can also disable on Android?
...whereas Apple are hiding it in their Terms and conditions, and making it unknown whether this functionality can be disabled by disabling Location Services.
Still fairly evil, but at least it's CLEAR what's happening, and obvious to the user the implications.
Apple seem to be trying to keep it a secret when location data is being recorded, and possibly might have made it impossible to disable.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I hope you didn't buy an Android phone or a BlackBerry or a Nokia then. Because *any* phone with a GPS can track and report your location.
Apple is late to the party as the other players have been doing this for years.
Nokia, Blackberry and Android don't have this in their terms and conditions. If they're doing it, I'm pretty sure they'd be tracking me illegally.
Not only that, but I can easily disable location and AGPS on my mobile, and - so far as I have seen - it doesn't upload data back to the mobile phone manufacturer nightly either.
So no. They've not been doing it for years. Only Apple have been doing it for years, and are now extending it to be able to do it all the time, and not just collecting it for themselves when it's been allowed by an 'app'.
This isn't about the iPhone. All phones are capable of revealing your location. If you're concerned, as you say, about this then you need to make this not be about the iPhone because it isn't iPhone-specific. Any smartphone with a GPS has this ability. Any cellphone connected to a cell network has this ability. If this is a subject that matters to you than don't focus in on one product.
Yes, this is about the iPhone. Apple have explicitly put this into the iPhone terms. My cell-phone operator hasn't put this into my terms. I have already checked.
As far as I am aware, no other mobile manufacturer have put terms in that "Your location data will be stored and sold".
Cell-phone triangulation information has tight(ish) controls in the UK, as I've already explained.
So which other mobile phone manufacturers have put in a clause that allows them to stalk you all day?
Given how much AT&T and Apple love each other right now(ie. not-at-all-divorced-but-can't-afford-to-move-out), I'd say that it is only sensible to assume that both parties are, independently, gathering data hand over fist, by the methods open to them. AT&T has the cell site stuff, which implies location, call termination, and unencrypted data, while Apple has the OS, which has to go a little more lightly on the GPS, for battery life reasons; but otherwise rules the show in terms of data collection...
So, essentially this document is meaningless, because Apple are already collecting and using this data. I don't know what AT&T are like, but in the UK there's controls over who has access to cell-phone triangulation.
Obviously there's no controls if this data is given over willingly to Apple. To me, that makes this a massive privacy problem. I'm amazed how few people care, and how many refuse to see the obviousness of the risks.
If you are so concerned about keeping your location secret, as you appear to be, then don't buy a cell phone. Pure and simple.
That's exactly the reason I didn't buy an iPhone. Unfortunately a LOT of people I've mentioned this to aren't aware of this tracking agreement. Privacy is important and I find it important to educate others.
Sure, there's triangulation possibilities with mobile phones, but at least in the UK these (I understand) are under fairly tight controls because of the cell-tower ownership. I think even the police need a warrant. Now Apple are collecting this without any real safeguards, just their own guarantee that it's anonymous - and that worked out great for AOL didn't it?
If he doesn't let third party apps, Apple won't get any data either. End of story.
WRONG. Read the PDF, top of page 12: "Anonymous Wi-Fi Access Point information and GPS co-ordinates may also be collected when an iPhone is using GPS to search for a cellular network.".
So even when not using an app, even if you have Location Services disabled, you might still be submitting your location to Apple. Is that not a worry? I contacted Apple myself to ask them if they'd like to work on a project, which nicely avoids this anonymousness
Sure, you can turn it off on an app-by-app basis, but nowhere in that document (yes, I read it), does it say that they won't still collect data for Apples' own use. Nor does it say that disabling it stops them collecting this data, or selling it on.
Just because you've disabled GPS doesn't mean they can't use AGPS or cell-tower triangulation to collect your location. It simply says that "location services capabilities" can be disabled. Collecting the data isn't a service; it doesn't say anywhere that the data is not collected by them if location services is disabled - plus you've explicitly allowed them to do so in the terms.
If AT&T are collecting it all the time, Apple can easily do it too. Does disabling it mean your privacy is fine? You simply cannot be sure, and this document doesn't clear that up.
I wouldn't let my Government install a tracking device to me, why let Apple do it? They already charge enough! There's no chance of stopping them, at least until someone has the money to take them to court.
I've actually written an email to Apple, suggesting a way we could work together to use this data (slightly humourously, but the theory seems sound - and legal!) you can read it here [monkeyboi.com]. Would be interested to hear any comments or any other uses this could be put to.
Nowhere does it say that disabling it for an app will disable collection of data to Apple. If AT&T are collecting it, there's no reason that Apple aren't either.
Yes.
Probably like everyone else on the site, you didn't bother to look and see the other FIFTY SIX requests for the same thing.
That's why this site is failing. There's no duplication checks, and each request is specific. I'd have thought a better way is to be able to submit a request, and have others submit 'parts' to that act, which visitors can agree on a one-by-one basis. Still make it open, but better moderated. Now where do I know a decent moderation system?
I wonder what happens if the bank takes possession of a team by lack of payment?
Therein lies the problem. If that did happen, there would be a huge outcry.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Of course there are, but should we ignore child abuse, because theft is a 'bigger' problem?
You are only seeing the downsides because you choose to ignore the upsides; how many people's quality of life becomes better due to these games?
I'd love to know how spending loads of money on tickets, clothing, and all pushed by celebrities with enough money of their own means there is any better 'quality of life'. Care to explain that?
There is more to life than just work work work after all.
Please tell my boss that when I want to watch the snooker at work! Most companies are fine paying people while leaving the football on, purely because of its' popularity.
If it's not immoral, then please explain to me how the upsides offset all of these downsides.
Sure, I might have got my figures a bit wrong; but everything I've said still stands, and football negatively affects social and economy greatly, often the lower-classes.
Hopefully at the very least I've made a few fanatics think a little deeper (seems it from the replies I got!), than about some pseudo-rapists shepherding some leather into an outdoor cupboard
i have never understood why some people take such great pride in hating something
Easy, for me at least to answer. Popular football causes violence, racism, hours lost at work, wasted money, hours of TV and news coverage is lost; and a small minority. who are already rich, are the only ones to benefit.
Speaking of national football, at least in the UK; Manchester Untied owe the banks around £2.2 Billion (a million million, not a US thousand million). That money would pay for about a tenth of the cost of the war in Iraq to the UK. That's just one football club. Most football clubs in the UK are in debt.
Not just that, but at least in the UK, many people see those who don't support Football as unpatriotic - when they themselves are only patriotic during football games.
I believe it's morally wrong to support national and international football because of these, and loads more reasons. Many people don't realise what cost football has, and what little it does. Does that answer your question?