Slashdot Mirror
The Mouse Vanishes
countertrolling sends in a clip from Wired that begins "...researchers at MIT have found a method to let users click and scroll exactly the same way they would with a computer mouse, without the device actually being there. Cup your palm, move it around on a table and a cursor on the screen hovers. Tap on the table like you would click a real mouse, and the computer responds. It's one step beyond cordless. It's an invisible mouse. The project, called 'Mouseless,' uses an infrared laser beam and camera to track the movements of the palm and fingers and translate them into computer commands... A working prototype of the Mouseless system costs approximately $20 to build, says Pranav Mistry, who is leading the project."
When can I get an invisible monitor? That's where the 1337 hackers are at!
No, without that "laser virtual keyboard".
"Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
- Sledge Hammer
So how many fellow slashdotters tap their fingers on their mouse or table without clicking while using their computers? I'm not sure I can see this being viable for a desktop pc. Maybe for netbooks though.
First post = troll. Cleverly worded post designed to enrage others = flamebait.
I like holding the mouse over fake holding one!
Once you have technology like this up and running why limit it to the X-Y axis? Being able to manipulate the interface with various gestures in three dimensions has long been a dream of science fiction. This kind of thing just brings it closer to reality.
Woo! A mouse with zero tactile feedback! Just what I always wanted in an input tool that I need to be precise.
You know, a lot of people like the movie Avatar. I think my favourite part was when the researcher with the curly hair and glasses had the interface in front of him - and he wanted to talk away and take it with him, he held up his hand to it, clenched, moved his hand to his mobile device, and sprawled it - and it came right up on the device.
We are getting so close to that cool Minority Report kind of interaction.
When I finger you I touch myself.
So what's the DPI on my cupped palm?
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Keep It Simple Stupid... I love my mouse, I love my trackball. It's simple, it can easily be replaced, requires almost no processing power and can be knocked on the table when it does not work, just for anger relief.
This kind of device, I guess, would require a lot more computing power to use, would eventually be integrated, and at 20 bucks for the thing, would break in the blink of an eye. Also, what about lag? I hate this 2ms - 5ms lag in the iPhone...
Please, I want to keep my hardware, plastic optical mouse.
I should be able to move the pointer by pointing my finger with have to move from the keyboard.
Just need a pointer and some way to "click"
There's already an invisible keyboard, and we all know how well that's selling and how it's replaced all our regular keyboards. Oh wait, it didn't? Dang.
stuff |
there's more cords... and more equipment, without any substantial added benefit.
So, what if this thing tracks your hand wrong?
How can you feel tactile feedback to let you know you've clicked?
Can someone else's hand interfere?
IE: What's the Gorilla Arm of this?
Ok, so it costs 20$ to make. I have the 20$ I just need the instructions and the Linux Drivers. Come on MIT we are waiting! ;)
With a standard mouse, I can shift my arm and move my hand freely without disturbing the mouse if I choose not to move it. With this system, the slightest twitch might be misinterpreted as a mouse command.
if it is better than today's aweful touchscreen typing support. So far the mouse is the only lag-less input system that lets you precisely select things layed out, and we expect precision. From seeing different smartphones handling touch support, where a fat finger has lots of possible locations on a screen, there is little hope that we will come up with something with the fine grained resolution provided by laser-pointer guided mice.
I will be sold if this new system is better than our text-to-speech reliability, so that I can play fast-paced games on my PC where lots of hovering, selecting, dragging, clicking and even gestures must be precisely read by my input device.
$20 worth of parts...
$15 to ship from china...
$10 to distribute...
"$5" markup by retailer...
Understanding/agreeing why you have to pay $75 for a $100 MSRP $20 mouse: priceless
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
...they came for my mouse's balls, and I said nothing.
Then they came for my mouse, and there was no one left to squeak up.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
NOPE </random>
So instead of something with a level of feedback and spring to the buttons... I get to pay the same price and repeatedly tap my figure against the desk? ...
along with the invisible bicycle.
After watching the video I'm going to have to put this in the Do Not Want category.
First, no scrolling.
Second, I still can't get my M$ wireless mice working perfectly, I can only imagine the problems I'd have with this.
I'll stick to my corded MX518 for a few more years, thanks
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
This is a terrible idea. The shape of the mouse provides support to your hand and allows it to fully rest most of the time. Cupping your hand over an imaginary mouse is fine for maybe an hour at a time, but is going to cause all sorts of strain for those who use a mouse for 6+ hours a day.
Where's my invisible pen? I'd like to stop losing my pens.
Sounds neat, and may not be all that uncomfortable (try moving thin air as if you were moving a mouse. you can still relax your hand).
However, I wish the interface itself was better. The times I'd die for a purely continuous analogue middle wheel, instead of the 'step-by-step' wheel that's forced upon us. Two wheels (one of each type) would be far better... (I suppose step-by-step does have a use for say, selecting dropdown menu items etc.).
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
What's the point of this? If I have to move my hand in a similar way then I'd prefer to have the physical mouse there as a reference. I would think this would cause more strain than having an actual mouse, but maybe that's because I've been using a trackball for over a decade. Plus I fucking hate mimes and refuse to be forced to act, even remotely, like one.
I think there's a big opportunity here for accessories. Imagine dragging your fingers along your desk all day - how dirty! Or, having to levitate your palm above the desk the whole time -- how cumbersome!
Introducing our new line of mouseless accessories. We have a small plastic device that will fit perfectly in your palm -- we even have ergonomic designs! No more dragging your palms around, just rest your hand conveniently on our mouseless hand rest.
Coming soon - Our state-of-the-art version includes a reduced-friction mousless hand rest with a rolling ball inside!
-geis
...takes on a more literal meaning...
nt
This just seems a bit legacy.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
You'll get my mouse, when you pry it from my cold dead hand.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
I heard that Schroedinger's cat got it.
...where you put the shark
I really do not see this as a big leap apart from the fact there is no physical mouse. In fact it would be more complicated to execute specific motions to get something done. I still move my hand away from the keyboard and then wave my hands in the air to get something done.
this has been around for a little while already... http://www.dontclick.it/
The patent holders of the Air Guitar are going to sue.
I'm used to moving the mouse with only my fingertips. Dude in the video is moving his wrist. Neat tech demo, but I wouldn't use it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKBjt5z_EcY&feature=related
This guy invented the sixth sense platform. It doesn't surprise me that he's been working on more stuff since then. We need more inventors like him!!
What i want is a new input device paradigm. Let's get rid of keyboards and mice.
why stop there, eyeball-tracking should be all you need for mouse movement. wink to click using either eye (close both eyes at the same time is ignored).
Not sure about the scroll wheel though.
I can't wait to see the ads for this. "Now you can have all the repetitive stress injury of using a regular mouse, without all of that annoying tangible feedback!"
With a normal mouse, I can keep my hand and arm in a resting state. When clicking a button I only need to push downwards once, and the spring-loaded button pushes my finger back up when I relax it. When I keep my hand on the mouse, I can push it around in a relatively frictionless manner without having to lift my hand. None of the solutions I have seen beats this.
I guess you could attach sensors to the facial muscles or something.
Emotions! In your brain!
Exactly. When I "cup my palm" and start moving it on the table, my nails make the sound of... well, the sound of scratching wood with nails. Uffffff....
screen. I don't mind virtual devices for clumsy activities, see the Natal type interface. However where I need exacting movement I doubt the "non mouse" be that accurate
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I did not RTFA, but this sounds like a *great* laptop accessory. I hate laptop trackpads and nipples, and am frequently too lazy to plug a regular mouse in, or get it out of my bag in the first place.. even if it is wireless. I don't see why this shouldn't be the next great thing in portable computing. Especially due to the price.
-- filgy
How can this technology replace my mouse, which has 4 buttons and a wheel? My thumb can click the left-most button easily, but tabbing the surface will be harder. And what about the increased friction? I probably won't enjoy rubbing my palm and fingers on the surface all day long.
Yeah, fail.
A mouse without the mouse? Why not build an oversized laptop touch pad about 5" x 4"? Or a trackball with a thumb scroll wheel?
I call it 'The Aristocrats'
How about the best of both worlds? Combining this invisible mouse with an actual, real mouse minus the batteries and the hassle of keeping it with you at all times. It would be great to provide higher accuracy with a specially designed object ("real" mouse) and just be there and work with you hand. I would love this on my laptop.
It looks like your fingers have to normally stay in contact with the table. So how does dragging work and how do you keep from dragging the mouse all the time?
Technoli
I'd love to see double-clicking, or click and drag with blinking.
This is such a great idea you know, because so far in my life my true burden has been my mouse. Mouses are the greatest things ever made I mean it would be kind of nice to have one on my laptop to game on when I wanna lay in bed but I could imagine it being as vulnerable to the age old mouse on uneven surfaces as my elips. $20 to make a makeshift one, but $100 to buy a crap one from Wal-Mart.
Michael J Fox is thinking, "Fuck Me! I'll never be able to use this!"
Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
So what's the DPI on my cupped palm?
Back when I was programming the mouse, the unit of mouse movement were called a MICKEY. I don't know if it is still that way.
And what would happen as I move my hand over to type on the keyboard? I can get let go of a mouse very efficiently, but what if the infra-red still thought I was holding the mouse as I move? Also, how does it detect that I'm click+dragging? Right clicking? Dragging with both buttons depressed? I'll stick with a real mouse thanks
A keyboard is something I feel requires tactile feedback, a mouse is not. Tactile feedback with a keyboard provides an intuitive reference for where your fingers are placed. You don't need to look down at your keyboard to be sure your fingers are properly aligned before you start typing. Typing on a touchscreen requires constant visual checks and a ton of practice on that particular screen and layout before muscle memory can kick it. Also important is the feedback of a key being depressed. The amount of effort to register a key input is consistent. I don't think we need the tall keys of traditional keyboards. I much prefer laptop or Apple's keyboards in particular because your fingers aren't reaching over neighboring keys and the amount of travel is minimal per key so it allows for fast, efficient typing.
A mouse, on the other hand, is all visual feedback. Where the mouse is sitting is completely irrelevant because it's constantly changing relative to the screen. All that matters is that a certain amount of movement in your hand corresponds to a set amount of movement on-screen. The only physical feedback I would probably miss button presses because that raises a similar issue to touchscreen keyboards.
I do have a few questions. Everyone in this video is using the claw grip. How does this system work with someone who uses the fingertip grip? The claw grip is far too imprecise for the design work that I do. Also, how does this work with click and drag? I don't see an example of that in the video, although I suppose that may be a non-issue. And the third question I have is how it deals with repositioning your hand. My cursor moves at a somewhat slow speed relative to mouse movement requiring me to reposition my mouse from time to time. Will this system allow for that without freaking out every time I place my hand in a new position.
If someone gets serious about turning this into a consumer product I hope they do some research with all kinds heavy mouse users. And in the end it might turn out that nobody likes this. I tend to think gesture control is a bit overrated. It certainly looks flashy. It feels like something from the future. But I'm not convinced it's particularly efficient. And more importantly, a lot of those gesture controls are likely to be exhausting over prolonged use. I think we need a physical object as a counterbalance to our movements, at least at this level.
Even mind control probably isn't as easy at it looks. I can imagine using your mind to control a cursor within a traditional OS environment would require too much concentration to be worthwhile. Try to visualize drawing something with your mind; I don't think it's as easy as you'd expect because you'd have to focus on every little movement. Drawing with an implement of any kind is a lot more instinctive.
I'm guessing this is just a rehash of the stuff demoed here...
http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html
"...this attempts to see how we can use new technology to control old technology,” says Daniel Wigdor, a user experience architect for Microsoft who hasn’t worked directly on the project.
So they asked someone from Microsoft for their input even though they had no direct impact on the project? Why? And they tag it with Microsoft? Is Microsoft trying to claim rights to MIT research?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
Gee, you keep the crappy part of the mouse interface (your hand leaves the keyboard) and abandon the one mitigating advantage: tactile feedback.
Pfui....from the subject I had hoped this article was reducing dependency on the mouse in the interface.
Cup your palm, move it around on a table and a cursor on the screen hovers. Tap on the table like you would click a real mouse, and the computer responds.
Think about all the spinoffs from the wiimote.
And now you're telling me I can 'cup the palm of my hand' and 'move it around' and 'tap my fingers' grrrr. Can't wait.
That's like a baby's toy.
There is already developments in mind controlled interfaces, ones that don't require implants mind you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface
It can't figure out when you're single clicking versus dragging.
Obviously, with a mouse, the action is a down-then-up motion, where this is an up-then-down motion.
I suppose this could be addressed by making a single tap a drag motion until you bring your finger up a second time, but that doesn't quite seem natural.
Wouldn't a touch sensitive surface be sufficient? Just make a mousepad touch sensitive and then put you hand on it so all five fingers touch the surface. Moving you hand is like a mouse movement and if one of the fingers if lifted and put back down the user clicked. swipe the finger downward and you used the scroll wheel. Basically we already use all this for the ipad/iphone so what are the camera and infrared beam needed for?
In a heavy Scottish accent: "Hello Computer?"
Cupping your hand over an imaginary mouse is fine for maybe an hour at a time, but is going to cause all sorts of strain for those who use a mouse for 6+ hours a day.
The hand doesn't need to be in an unnatural shape - it is at rest in an appropriate shape for this.
The problem will be if you can't support the hand, arm, or fingers by letting them sit on the desk without "pressing the buttons".
What killed touch screens on vertical-face monitors (until they reemerged in the more usable form of tablets) was having to support the arm to manipulate them. OK for a few touches. But for long-term use you'd tire the arm muscles, producing the malady called "gorilla arm".
This thing looks like it might do the same to the finger-lift muscles, unless the fingers can be allowed to drag on the table and the "press" gesture be something like pulling them inward, rather than hovering them and tapping downward.
Scratch for scroll wheel. In two-D. B-) Or do touchpad without the pad.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
So what do I throw in a fit of pique now?
This is near technology, but I wouldn't want to use it for more than a few minutes at a time. Sliding my hand around on a table for 8 or 10 hours a day would almost certainly give me blisters, and possibly a rash depending on the material. It would callus the heck out of whatever skin was touching the table as well.
Contrast this with a mouse where your hand isn't sliding around on anything, and the winner is pretty clear in my mind.
---- I'll take you in a Hunt deathmatch any day.
We already have something that allows this: the trackpad.
... there is no mouse.
L'esperienza de questa dolce vita (The experience of this sweet life) - Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
I can see the experimental set up being $20 in parts and free software, but to make it work for the end user, you would need to create a "USB Desk Lamp" that would essentially do all of the processing independently powered by a USB port and sending all of its data back to the computer as regular mouse inputs. On top of that, it would need to be as fast and responsive as a typical mouse and just as accurate... possibly more accurate. (People will perceive that the same level of accuracy will be less than normal because they will not realize that their hands have shifted shape or position on the table.)
So I think of Logitech were to buy the patents associated with this invention, for example, by the time a product hits the market, the thing would end up costing people a LOT more than $20.
Still, I would like one...
The real problem with replacements for the mouse, is that the mouse already tackles problems that our filthy meatbag bodies create.
We create an awful lot of moisture, sweat, oil, whatever and we carry around a lot of dirt on our hands. Even if you just washed your them, try rubbing them together and something with either fall off or gather into a little dark smudge. Hell, with all of the dead skin falling off our hands, they might as well be made of dirt. That stuff no matter how little, builds up fast. The mouse addresses the problem, by making sure that you never actually touch the surface area of your pointing device, but instead you hold this big plastic block, while your touchscreen bypasses the whole issues, but getting wiped off every time you put it into your pocket or holder. The touchpad (or surface of your desk) don't have either benefit. Crap just builds up and with it heat from friction.
Meh, I'll wait for a left-handed version.
Keyboards on this same general principle already existed more than a few years ago.
Remember that PalmPilot keyboard which would project a keyboard image onto a surface, and then you could type on that surface with your fingers?
There clearly was some delay between hand movement and cursor movement on that video.
Of course, it's still research and I expect a commercial product if/when it's out to be better. But no matter what you do to minimize latency, processing the feed from a camera to detect movement means at least one frame of latency (probably more if want to increase precision). One frame is about 30ms and that's a lot for an input device.
Now I understand how Star Fleet officers operate the transporter!
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
... is his last name.
Thanks, I'll be here all week!
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
How about placing a scroll wheel in between the H and J keys?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I don't know if you noticed, but the track pad requires you to physically touch a device, and has a very limited interaction surface.
Think of this as a trackpad the size of your desk, which is pretty freakin cool for use mobile folks.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
This basically appears to be a mobile version of "LaserTouch" that was done at Microsoft Research in 2008. I wonder if he's added anything to that? http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/23/microsofts-lasertouch-prototype-brings-hand-control-to-any-disp/
After using a trackball for so long I can't stand using a normal mouse, I still CAN use one when I have to but I much prefer moving only my thumb and not my entire arm. I don't see them making a virtual trackball mouse anytime soon.
A lot of people are quick to dismiss it on usefulness to themselves, but what about people with injuries, or even potentially preventing hand injuries with this? It may have a lot of benefit if you think about moving around a physical device compared to making the same gesture without one - it means less awkward finger positions and movements.
And considering an ergonomic mouse can cost more than $100, if this proves beneficial its a bargain.
Didn't they already make the mouse vanish and call it a touchpad?
They never made standalone touchpads for desktops, because they are a pain to use. Why would this be any different?
Interesting, sure. But "mouseless" is a rather silly title.
The problem of "alternative inputs" is that they are all ambiguous, vague, and subjective.
Voice - "Close Window!" (well you have lots of windows open, which one?) -- how about "Close Porn Window". (D'oh, did I say that aloud?) "Close the Window, I'm cold".
How about conversations with coworkers, or the phone? "I can't believe they are going to shut down for the holidays, huh? Yes! I am sure! But we're staying open... shit, my computer just shutdown."
Touch Screen? You think you have carpel tunnel issues now?
Pupil Tracker? WTF? What is it going to think of people who keep tracking off to look at the clock, or the receptionist?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I'm not so sure that incorporating a motion that we do repeatedly and involuntarily into a device such as this is really a good idea.
Imagine writing a sentence, getting half way through, glancing to the start of it to check what I'd written, blinking involuntarily and not noticing (thereby placing my cursor at the beginning of the sentence) and then continuing to type. It's bad enough when you accidentally touch the touchpad on a laptop with your thumb while typing...
Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
How exactly is this different from, or more useful than, a trackpad? True, it's larger, but that's a trivial distinction. This is cool, but I don't see any way it makes any practical contribution.
the physical mouse also acts as a palm/hand-rest. Just moving your hand on the table would be less comfortable I think...