A product still must meet certain requirements for success in the marketplace. Microsoft could have shipped much cooler stuff years ago, but much less reliable stuff. It is a trade-off. Say what you will about the products, history has proven them "good-enough", if not the best available.
It is also true that a product, irrespective of quality, must comply with a given corporate structure and workflow. I love to use Notes as an example of a product that forced companies to change how they did business, to the extent that Exchange was a much more attractive option.
You could argue why Directory Services never really took off until Active Directory (Vines people, just dont even try it) but the answer is clear. You still have to have a product that works well enough for people to buy it more than once. For that, you need those code monkey, because time-to-market vs. quality will forever be a negotiated matter. That is just reality. Ask Scott McNeeley.
Tell me, just what "monopoly position did Microsoft hold, which cause Excel to kick the crap out of Lotus 123? As I recall, Microsoft begged companies to support the coming Windows version, but Lotus (among others) opted for OS/2.
I could argue the case for the others as well, but I dont see the point.
I cant argue with that, or any of the other comments with respect to the poor quality of code. Absolutely, less hours would have meant better code, better products. But these would have also been products that missed window of opportunity.
Like it or not, you dont always (almost never) have time to complete the optimal product, in time to be more than just a footnote. Software development is an art, but it is also a BUSINESS, people.
Sometimes, you need a place-holder, just to be IN the market.
Look at Microsoft today with that LIVE shit. And SHIT it is. BUT, had it been first, it would be what Google is today. Live is shit, and will be shit, because the best people in this field are at Google. Many of them came from other lines of business at Microsoft.
Nobody should assume that the people who were code-monkeys back in the day at Microsoft didn't care about producing quality code. The fact is that we also cared about producing stuff in time for it to be purchased and used by enough people to allow us to build a better version the next time.
Its the 80-20 rule. Sometimes, you just gotta get it out there, and make the money to finance 2.0, and so-on and so-on. Had Microsoft waited until Exchange was perfect, Notes could not have sucked enough to not gain enough marketshare to control the market.
Hell, we saved the world from a Notes-dominated world, bitches! You OWE US.
I am not nearly as driven now, as I once was, for the simple reason that I dont have to be.
My first wife was more interested in spending my stock options as they vested than saving for a better future. I was young and chose poorly.
The new wife (while certainly a trophy by any measure) is also my best friend, and less interested in money, than in spending time with me. Hence, as I mentioned before, I can goof off today on Slashdot, because I've got a two dozen kids who do all the hard stuff for me.
My post to you was to remind you that there is a time for work and a time for play, and if you are patient, you can have an even better life later, if you are willing to sacrifice when you are young. I have hiring difficulties not because I don't get a lot of applicants, but because they come to our office and disqualify themselves almost before we can review their code.
I don't want to know what kids do in their spare time. If you are under 30, you shouldn't have very much spare time in my book. If you are not working, or furthering your education when you are young, then you are wasting time.
That's my opinion, you can certainly disagree, but I wouldnt trade my life today with anyone. Call me old-school.
This is where you kids always make a mistake in bashing Microsoft.
There is a difference between Customer Satisfaction, and Customer Happiness. Compared to Windows 3.11, Windows 95 SATISFIED enough people to eventually please the ONLY true customer, the shareholder.
Microsoft succeeded for the most part, on the rest of the industry's inability to understand this basic truth of business. Nobody in Redmond back in the day sweated bullets as to whether or not you LOVED the product. We sweated bullets on whether or not you BOUGHT the product.
Yeah yeah, I know, anti-trust, bla, bla, fuckin-bla. Wake me when a Shareholder had a problem with it.
I also own a software/consulting company. However, unlike you, I decided to pay my dues early, so that now, like you, I can work when I feel like it, because I have a couple dozen souls who want to live like me, in say 10 years or so? Right now, while they are young, eager and smarter than me, I am going to work their asses off, so that our company can afford to send them off with the money to do whatever they want, as Microsoft did for me.
I'm constantly searching for 20-somethings who are more concerned about how their eventual children will live in 2020, than how they themselves are living right now. These people are getting harder and harder to find, even though anyone who works for me gets any hardware, toy, gadget, etc, that they feel will help them do their job better, no questions asked, just like when I worked at Microsoft.
Its a different mindset these days, and while you think your folks are productive, I would comfortably assume that were you up against us on a project, my people would eat your lunch. We work until we ship. THEN we play. If you need to change diapers between builds, you probably don't want to work for me.
I have dived the wrecks of Belize, with the NEW wife (younger and cuter, since I am smarter and richer) and have a great time. Like you say, its a choice. You are happy with yours, I am ecstatic with mine. Good luck.
15 years ago, when old timers like me were sweating to ship, it was practically a divorce announcement a week, in my group. Weeks before deadlines, sleeping in our offices, doing build, after build after build, nobody would have considered Redmond to be family friendly.
In fact, if you needed family time, you were considered a bit suspect, or a whiny little bitch.
But, in those days, we shipped indeed, and our stock price was ever-rising. Back then, you could even tell an under-achiever that they sucked without fear of a lawsuit.
But, Win95 shipped, Exchange shipped, Office shipped, and left a trail of dead or dying competitors in our wake.
Now?
Vista.
Enough said.
Family Friendly hasn't done crap for shareholders, IMHO.
I suppose, when you drop the price of two 2.0 phones on the new model, your choices are to either bitch and moan or accept your fate, eh? Steve Jobs depends upon you suc-, uh you good natured folks. God, love ya.
True, but Apple customers are quite used to taking their yearly beating, and begging for more. No 3G kept me from the first iPhone, but I'll get one now, just so I can laugh at those who blew $500 on the first version, WITHOUT 3G. I intend much abuse.
Support for Word, Excel & PowerPoint? With Exchange Push, who the fuck wants a Blackberry? And, if you have an iPhone 1.0, how stupid do feel now? My guess is millions available on EBay this week.
It would be a fun thread on Slashdot for all of us who made a million on MS products (Exchange Server for me, and about to make another on SharePoint) to list how and where we made our money.
Then we can contrast that with all of the Open Source solutions that are JUST ABOUT to overtake Microsoft (they are dying, ya know?) and how they cant innovate.
One of my great joys here on Slashdot is the yearly thread about the latest thing that is alllllllllmooooosttt ready to wipe out Exchange Server. Its always good for 300-400 posts. Look for it, it will happen, its almost time for it...here it comes!
Run, Bitches!
billg was good for me, and my time at Microsoft and after, doing my own thang, have been possible because, GASP, people use their products! While others innovate their asses off, basking in the glory of all their buddies who also gave up sex for software, others make money, have families, lives, and consume drinks from glasses rather than cans and cups.
As of two weeks ago, I was just like you. Probably 9-10 double shots a day, while coding.NET MOSS apps (SharePoint). I fainted in front of the espresso machine, and was taken to the Hospital, where they told me my blood pressure was 225/135. Checked my heart, found I had early stages of congestive heart failure. Now, I wear a Nitroglycerin patch, take 3 different meds a day for blood pressure and heart rhythm control, and my life expectancy has dropped by at least 10 years. I'm not overweight, used to play basketball every weekend with others who cant jump, but I have been knocking back MAJOR caffeine for about 20 years.
You DO NOT want to join me in the hell that is decaf-coffee, my friend. Not saying you should give it up, but consider cutting back. The caffeine forces your heart to work harder, while constricting your blood vessels at the same time. Heart gets tired, swells up, leaving less room for blood inside for each pump. You dont want this. Docs told me to give up bacon too, but I told them I would rather fucking die.
I drive the coast from California to Washington state 4-5 times a year, and each direction, it is a must to stop at the Tillamook factory and drop $100 or so on cheese and whatever. Best Sour Cream in the world, too. My office has 10 or so coffee mugs from the place. The city also has a decent Air and Space museum too.
Macromedia was a perfect acquisition, and for some unknown reason, Microsoft thought about it then failed to pull the trigger. Imagine full integration between Visual Studio and Dreamweaver/Flash/Fireworks. That would have been something to get excited about.
If a nuclear war started, much of America would be destroyed. However, ALL of our enemy's country(s) would be destroyed, for they have no missile defense. We have multiple types of defense. Launch phase, re-entry phase, you name it.
There is nothing valid about the Kos, point. The Navy had time to do it they way they chose, and they did. It worked, Liberals the world over are bummed out. Nothing new, but still stupid.
The reason that the Navy postponed the test, is because they wanted to test their infra-red tracking system against the missile, instead of the radar guided system. The Navy has done plenty of testing of the radar system with success, but not the infra-red system. The test was delayed to allow the satellite to gain heat via sunlight rather than be a cold night target. Bottom line, a dead-on hit with a 22,000 knot closure rate, is impressive by any measure.
Also, if anyone thinks our military cant take out a working satellite, I want some of what that person is smoking. Our military has stuff most of us wont hear about publicly for another 10-20 years.
"So what does MS do then? They go back to the old trick of "We cant compete with their products, so lets just start hijacking their engineers". MS had the money so they just started writing VERY big checks to Borland's best and brightest. And the rest as they say is history."
What product makes Microsoft their greatest profit? Answer = MS Office.
Which department decided to bundle Microsoft's desktop apps into what is known as MS Office? Answer = Microsoft's Marketing Dept.
You must be very young to believe Microsoft simply BOUGHT all of their products, or that everything successful is simply the result of their money.(Did I mention MS Office?)
Love them or hate them, but you would be foolish to think Microsoft never built anything on their own towards their success. They didn't buy Excel, they didn't buy Exchange Server, which spawned Active Directory, so give them their due.
Nobody told the folks at Lotus or Netscape that they got beat by money, rather than products that kicked theirs in the teeth. Who did they buy Visual Studio or the.NET Framework from? Something tells me, Microsoft will be just fine for the long term.
#1 Bundling Desktop Applications as Microsoft Office
#2 Using the Windows GUI on Windows NT.
#3 Exchange Server focus on Email instead of "Groupware"
#4 The promotion of SQL Server over FoxPro
#5 Visual Basic.
#6 Visual InterDev & ASP.
#7 Visual Basic.NET
#8 NetBeui over IPX.
#9 Windows ME
#10 Microsoft Bob
A mixed bag to say the least. MS Office was probably the single best Marketing decision ever made at Microsoft, though developers hated having to build inter-app compatibility. Rather than compete with Notes on a feature for feature basis, Microsoft marketers went straight for what was WRONG with Notes instead.
So, Marketing's domination at Microsoft did some great things for the bottom line, while doing some horrible things for Microsoft reputation in the tech community. Our great great-grandchildren will still be reading jokes about MS Bob on the Internet.
Slashdot Mirror
It is also true that a product, irrespective of quality, must comply with a given corporate structure and workflow. I love to use Notes as an example of a product that forced companies to change how they did business, to the extent that Exchange was a much more attractive option.
You could argue why Directory Services never really took off until Active Directory (Vines people, just dont even try it) but the answer is clear. You still have to have a product that works well enough for people to buy it more than once. For that, you need those code monkey, because time-to-market vs. quality will forever be a negotiated matter. That is just reality. Ask Scott McNeeley.
Tell me, just what "monopoly position did Microsoft hold, which cause Excel to kick the crap out of Lotus 123? As I recall, Microsoft begged companies to support the coming Windows version, but Lotus (among others) opted for OS/2.
I could argue the case for the others as well, but I dont see the point.
Like it or not, you dont always (almost never) have time to complete the optimal product, in time to be more than just a footnote. Software development is an art, but it is also a BUSINESS, people.
Sometimes, you need a place-holder, just to be IN the market.
Look at Microsoft today with that LIVE shit. And SHIT it is. BUT, had it been first, it would be what Google is today. Live is shit, and will be shit, because the best people in this field are at Google. Many of them came from other lines of business at Microsoft.
Nobody should assume that the people who were code-monkeys back in the day at Microsoft didn't care about producing quality code. The fact is that we also cared about producing stuff in time for it to be purchased and used by enough people to allow us to build a better version the next time.
Its the 80-20 rule. Sometimes, you just gotta get it out there, and make the money to finance 2.0, and so-on and so-on. Had Microsoft waited until Exchange was perfect, Notes could not have sucked enough to not gain enough marketshare to control the market.
Hell, we saved the world from a Notes-dominated world, bitches! You OWE US.
I am not nearly as driven now, as I once was, for the simple reason that I dont have to be.
My first wife was more interested in spending my stock options as they vested than saving for a better future. I was young and chose poorly.
The new wife (while certainly a trophy by any measure) is also my best friend, and less interested in money, than in spending time with me. Hence, as I mentioned before, I can goof off today on Slashdot, because I've got a two dozen kids who do all the hard stuff for me.
My post to you was to remind you that there is a time for work and a time for play, and if you are patient, you can have an even better life later, if you are willing to sacrifice when you are young. I have hiring difficulties not because I don't get a lot of applicants, but because they come to our office and disqualify themselves almost before we can review their code.
I don't want to know what kids do in their spare time. If you are under 30, you shouldn't have very much spare time in my book. If you are not working, or furthering your education when you are young, then you are wasting time.
That's my opinion, you can certainly disagree, but I wouldnt trade my life today with anyone. Call me old-school.
There is a difference between Customer Satisfaction, and Customer Happiness. Compared to Windows 3.11, Windows 95 SATISFIED enough people to eventually please the ONLY true customer, the shareholder.
Microsoft succeeded for the most part, on the rest of the industry's inability to understand this basic truth of business. Nobody in Redmond back in the day sweated bullets as to whether or not you LOVED the product. We sweated bullets on whether or not you BOUGHT the product.
Yeah yeah, I know, anti-trust, bla, bla, fuckin-bla. Wake me when a Shareholder had a problem with it.
I'm constantly searching for 20-somethings who are more concerned about how their eventual children will live in 2020, than how they themselves are living right now. These people are getting harder and harder to find, even though anyone who works for me gets any hardware, toy, gadget, etc, that they feel will help them do their job better, no questions asked, just like when I worked at Microsoft.
Its a different mindset these days, and while you think your folks are productive, I would comfortably assume that were you up against us on a project, my people would eat your lunch. We work until we ship. THEN we play. If you need to change diapers between builds, you probably don't want to work for me.
I have dived the wrecks of Belize, with the NEW wife (younger and cuter, since I am smarter and richer) and have a great time. Like you say, its a choice. You are happy with yours, I am ecstatic with mine. Good luck.
Microsoft is a Public Entity, with responsibilities EXCLUSIVE to its shareholders.
Workers wishing for more cushy conditions can go work at Borland. Oh wait, uh, Ashton Tate. Oops, uh, Word Perfect Corp. Oh no, uh Lotus?
In fact, if you needed family time, you were considered a bit suspect, or a whiny little bitch.
But, in those days, we shipped indeed, and our stock price was ever-rising. Back then, you could even tell an under-achiever that they sucked without fear of a lawsuit.
But, Win95 shipped, Exchange shipped, Office shipped, and left a trail of dead or dying competitors in our wake.
Now?
Vista.
Enough said.
Family Friendly hasn't done crap for shareholders, IMHO.
I suppose, when you drop the price of two 2.0 phones on the new model, your choices are to either bitch and moan or accept your fate, eh? Steve Jobs depends upon you suc-, uh you good natured folks. God, love ya.
Somehow, I don't think that will be enough to stem the anger over the new price point. If I own an early iPhone today, I am not a happy camper.
True, but Apple customers are quite used to taking their yearly beating, and begging for more. No 3G kept me from the first iPhone, but I'll get one now, just so I can laugh at those who blew $500 on the first version, WITHOUT 3G. I intend much abuse.
Support for Word, Excel & PowerPoint? With Exchange Push, who the fuck wants a Blackberry? And, if you have an iPhone 1.0, how stupid do feel now? My guess is millions available on EBay this week.
It would be a fun thread on Slashdot for all of us who made a million on MS products (Exchange Server for me, and about to make another on SharePoint) to list how and where we made our money.
Then we can contrast that with all of the Open Source solutions that are JUST ABOUT to overtake Microsoft (they are dying, ya know?) and how they cant innovate.
One of my great joys here on Slashdot is the yearly thread about the latest thing that is alllllllllmooooosttt ready to wipe out Exchange Server. Its always good for 300-400 posts. Look for it, it will happen, its almost time for it...here it comes!
Run, Bitches!
billg was good for me, and my time at Microsoft and after, doing my own thang, have been possible because, GASP, people use their products! While others innovate their asses off, basking in the glory of all their buddies who also gave up sex for software, others make money, have families, lives, and consume drinks from glasses rather than cans and cups.
Flame away, bitches! I've got karma to burn!
You DO NOT want to join me in the hell that is decaf-coffee, my friend. Not saying you should give it up, but consider cutting back. The caffeine forces your heart to work harder, while constricting your blood vessels at the same time. Heart gets tired, swells up, leaving less room for blood inside for each pump. You dont want this. Docs told me to give up bacon too, but I told them I would rather fucking die.
Cut back, my brother.
Got a link, dude? My Audigy 4 Pro has been crippled by Vista, and like you, I didnt know there was an option available.
In my case, he was referring to Netscape, but he could have just as easily meant Borland, Word Perfect, Ashton Tate, Lotus or a few others....
I drive the coast from California to Washington state 4-5 times a year, and each direction, it is a must to stop at the Tillamook factory and drop $100 or so on cheese and whatever. Best Sour Cream in the world, too. My office has 10 or so coffee mugs from the place. The city also has a decent Air and Space museum too.
Macromedia was a perfect acquisition, and for some unknown reason, Microsoft thought about it then failed to pull the trigger. Imagine full integration between Visual Studio and Dreamweaver/Flash/Fireworks. That would have been something to get excited about.
If a nuclear war started, much of America would be destroyed. However, ALL of our enemy's country(s) would be destroyed, for they have no missile defense. We have multiple types of defense. Launch phase, re-entry phase, you name it.
There is nothing valid about the Kos, point. The Navy had time to do it they way they chose, and they did. It worked, Liberals the world over are bummed out. Nothing new, but still stupid.
Also, if anyone thinks our military cant take out a working satellite, I want some of what that person is smoking. Our military has stuff most of us wont hear about publicly for another 10-20 years.
Right, my bad. For a sec, I forgot where I was posting.
"So what? I'm RICH, Bitch! Borland didn't pay me, baby!"
Which department decided to bundle Microsoft's desktop apps into what is known as MS Office? Answer = Microsoft's Marketing Dept.
You must be very young to believe Microsoft simply BOUGHT all of their products, or that everything successful is simply the result of their money.(Did I mention MS Office?)
Love them or hate them, but you would be foolish to think Microsoft never built anything on their own towards their success. They didn't buy Excel, they didn't buy Exchange Server, which spawned Active Directory, so give them their due.
Nobody told the folks at Lotus or Netscape that they got beat by money, rather than products that kicked theirs in the teeth. Who did they buy Visual Studio or the .NET Framework from? Something tells me, Microsoft will be just fine for the long term.
#2 Using the Windows GUI on Windows NT.
#3 Exchange Server focus on Email instead of "Groupware"
#4 The promotion of SQL Server over FoxPro
#5 Visual Basic.
#6 Visual InterDev & ASP.
#7 Visual Basic.NET
#8 NetBeui over IPX.
#9 Windows ME
#10 Microsoft Bob
A mixed bag to say the least. MS Office was probably the single best Marketing decision ever made at Microsoft, though developers hated having to build inter-app compatibility. Rather than compete with Notes on a feature for feature basis, Microsoft marketers went straight for what was WRONG with Notes instead.
So, Marketing's domination at Microsoft did some great things for the bottom line, while doing some horrible things for Microsoft reputation in the tech community. Our great great-grandchildren will still be reading jokes about MS Bob on the Internet.
The dude needs to re-read Elements of Style, for verbosity and consistency of tone. That post would have come off better as a parody.