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Microsoft Had Doubts About the 'Vista Capable' Label
dionysus writes "Last April, Microsoft was sued over its 'Vista Capable' labeling, and in hearing last week, attorneys for the plaintiffs presented evidence that Microsoft employees were skeptical about the 'Vista Capable' marketing. Some of the most damning evidence comes from Microsoft executives: 'Mike Nash, currently a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine." Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."' The judge in the case is currently considering the plaintiffs' request to make it a class-action lawsuit."
when marketing gets primacy over engineers....
http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
P2P group maVen used the same trick aswell to flee from the police. Wonder if this is what Microsoft is trying to do with the Yahoo antitrust stuff aswell.
Uh, no. What you've got is a $2100 PC that runs just dandy with Windows XP. You know, what you were using before Vista slowed it to a crawl. These guys are buffoons.
It makes me feel really good to hear about Microsoft getting pissed at Microsoft. I've always wondered about this and what a relief. The frustration I've run into over the years, especially regarding design decisions, finally feels worth something.
'Mike Nash, formerly a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine."
Queens of the Stone Age - they rule
When management is completely disconnected from how their company creates value.
Hopefully nothing changes though. That would be the best case scenario for the entire industry.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Perhaps they should have forced it upon employees for more "real-world" testing first?
Putting "Vista Capable" on a machine is much like saying E85 capable on GM trucks.. while it may indeed be able to use it, no one in there right mind ever should..
So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
I'm curious how long until a class action suit fires up over all the companies out there selling 64bit machines with 32bit versions of Vista. That's complete shit. Why even sell a 64bit machine if they're going to hobble it to 32 bit operation?
Imagine buying a 12 cylinder Lamborghini, getting it home, and then realizing it's only firing on 6 cylinders.
Did you even read the summary? The MS exec's first thought was of the customers. Good grief.
The first thing I did on receipt of my XP notebook with the Windows Vista Capable sticker was to remove it and put it in its correct place: on my bin.
You can't mean that Micro$haft made an error in judgment? In Marketing?
Say it ain't so!! Micro$haft made a mistake?
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
I'm starting to like Vista?
Like may be too strong. Rather, it's not bugging me or keeping me from working - and it's even growing on me. My work bought me a new Dell 530 desktop with Vista Business, seems to work fine (I actually kind of like Office 2007 too - Visual Studio 2008 Express is pretty cool as well). Probably just due to being forced to use it regularly.
I don't understand how he could buy a computer for $2100 even a year ago and call it an e-mail machine while running Vista. I bought my computer in February 2007 for $2085.42 (just checked the receipt) and it works well on Vista and gaming. Either he was scammed, or just speaking REALLY metaphorically.
Having said that, XP owns Vista.
Full Tilt
They're just individuals with their own opinions. Personally they can think one thing but as a company they can think another.
This really isn't much of a story; more like looking for a story.
Crappy to release that type branding with their own beliefs in doubt? Sure, but don't hold it against the entire company. That's just what I think but then again I'm just some random guy on the internet.
No, mate, they're running Linux in virtual machines and discovering that they like it.
Actually, it was their first thought after they got bitten personally by the botch-up, but IMHO not during design or at any stage before release.
If the end-using customer is their first thought, then please explain DRM.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
...otherwise known as early adopters.
To be fair Vista introduced to an unsuspecting IT world the shocking concept that's been around in *nix that "You don't have root level access as a norm!" (Gasp!). This alone caused issues for the majority of Windows software, and is probably the cause of the majority UAC complaints too. Remember too that, this type of security really isn't appreciated by your average Joe, who honestly couldn't give two shits if someone has rooted his box. He'll care when he can't write documents, send emails and check the football results on-line (even if it does require closing various popups)...but a Windows SUDO was long overdue.
Also, Vista is the first iteration of Windows that's seriously supported 64 bit...XP does I know, but it's something of a stop-gap in my opinion, and very rare to see. The 64-bit shift was too, on it's own, bound to cause upgrade havoc, much like the "good old days" of Win95 not running legacy 16bit apps too well.
Finally, Vista does overhaul other areas of Windows that has been for the better in the long-run, but a world of hurts in the short-run. Check out the propaganda here - http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/vista/kernel-en.mspx
There's a tonne of reasons why Vista has been a painful upgrade, but these reasons above I feel are the most prominent, and not so much fault of Microsoft either in my opinion. Yeah, security should've "not sucked", the tech is still very new (many will say 'too' new), and the 64-bit switch-over is unavoidable at some point, but frankly Vista's getting better every day (for instance, just today this was released - http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb%3Ben-us%3B943899&x=14&y=11) but much of Vista's problems have been blown up bigger than they are by people that quite frankly, just want to see Microsoft fail, die, whatever...and are willing to "stretch the truth" if it helps that happen....
Hang on; I've just realised where I'm posting.
throw new NoSignatureException();
How many versions of the same system do you really need? Having created over six versions of the same operating system, Microsoft should have been aware that there would be confusion. Are people in the company so oblivious to the "Keep it Simple" approach? Generally a desktop and a server edition should suffice, and anything being marked a 'ready' should be indicating the expected experience and not the rationed experience.
A computer allowing me to experience 10% of what the new OS can provide me, is not ready in any shape or form. Games labelling gets this right, why shouldn't hardware? Are we dealing with crooks or incompetence?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Indeed it is funny to watch the huge dinosaur stampede and run around like a headless chicken... however I am afraid of what could get squished on its path.
No sig for the moment.
Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."' The judge in the case is currently considering the plaintiffs' request to make it a class-action lawsuit."
I love it. Here's an article with discussion about the IMPENDING class action LAWSUIT against micro$oft. cgi-bin.law.com/jsp?id=1090180336325
Reports that itemize Microsoft's records of the relevant products purchased by claimants who participated in Microsoft's volume license programs (known as Enterprise, Select or Open licenses) have been mailed and are being processed.
i've had just about enough of your vassar bashing.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Did you even read the summary? The MS exec's first thought was of the customers. Good grief. Yeah, in the same sense as when some hysterical woman shouts "Won't someone think of the children!" and Michael Jackson raises his hand to say "I am!"
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Anyone inside the project teams on the vista push knew many of the work patterns were B-A-D. teams had a top-down requirement change almost daily. they fought for changes via up-one-flagpole-down-another. The schedule cut all kinds of scope while the new features were "must haves". the security initiative, the team patterns, the scope dictation and the requirements "volleyball" were terrible at ever "finishing" a concept. Each team with any kind of pull would demand all others conform to the request they wanted, and the winning concept were decided in the mgmt level, not knowing the real impact of their decisions until afterwards.
Add in ideas that nobody had really tackled before, like the secure channel for content, driver signing, legacy app security rights vs. UAC, etc and you're bound to have a lot of latent problems that demand a longer period of testing. But this was after the 1st "scrap" so there really wasn't time to push the market off any longer, MS's ability to deliver was already in question.
it had many flavors of dysfunctional. but they've changed a lot and are starting differently with the next gen OS.
"Hang on; I've just realised where I'm posting."
Haha
Exactly. What the exec said in his email was what an exec should be saying. "This didn't work for me... is this impacting our customers?"
No doubt corporate leadership caused the problem in the first place... but people pointing out the issues internally are what are needed to fix it. (Well, it can't be fixed, now. Maybe it can be avoided in the future.)
"Microsoft argued that it provided detailed information on the sticker program and that it was the customers' fault for not educating themselves before purchasing their new computers."... Microsoft should know that 98% of the computer-owning public knows nothing about computers except that they need one for work, and the kids need one for school. Instead, they have proven that they are out of touch. Every version since Windows 95 has forgotten the user at every turn. Taking people's icons away and forcing them to use the start menu confuses users. Changing the names and locations of things with every new version so people have to learn all over again is an ordeal. It's not only windows. Internet Explorer 7 took away "History" unless you want to clutter up your screen with an explorer bar. Where did the history pull-down go. Parents want to check up on where their kids have been surfing. Why the hell would they take a feature away? It boggles the mind! Microsoft has made computing more complicated and confusing for the average user at every turn when they need to make it simpler. It is a shame they are still in business.
How ya like dat?
Home Basic also does not include the Aero Glass UI, tablet PC support, Mobility Center, Meeting Space, SideShow, or Scheduled Backup. In addition to the ability to join a domain, Business and Ultimate include Complete PC Backup and Restore, Fax and Scan, Remote Desktop, and the ability to save your password when connecting to an SMB share. That's right, in Home Basic/Premium, the "save password" checkbox on the authentication dialog is missing (and command-line alternatives are broken). Finally, only Ultimate Edition includes BitLocker drive encryption.
I can understand why they might want to have two editions of the OS: Home and Professional, like they had originally with XP. The networking capabilities of Business/Ultimate really are integrated into the OS and can't be added on by a separate package. Plenty of small business users need these features, but they order new PCs for their employees without realizing which flavor of Windows is included, so they wind up buying an extra copy at retail, which makes Microsoft more money. It's evil, but from a business perspective it makes sense.
However, apart from Media Center, the features of Home Premium over Home Basic are things nobody would ever pay extra for. It makes absolutely no sense to me that Media Center should require its own OS version. Media Center should be a separate product, just as Microsoft Office is a separate product. Advertise PCs that bundle it as having "Windows Vista Home Edition with Media Center" instead of "Windows Vista Home Premium Edition". Let customers who bought PCs without Media Center go buy it, just like customers who bought PCs without Office can go buy it. Media Center is something that a lot of people do see value in and are willing to pay for. Let them do that.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
Actually, it was their first thought after they got bitten personally by the botch-up, but IMHO not during design or at any stage before release.
Oh right, because you're inside their mind. Perhaps the exec thought that the dev team would ensure it wouldn't be an issue? Seems much more likely to me.
If the end-using customer is their first thought, then please explain DRM.
I'd rather buy an OS that can play movies out of the box than hack support in after digging through sites and vague instructions, while moving to gray legal areas. Any other stupidity you'd like to spew?
Heres and interesting quote over at Ars Technica:
One thing is certain: the choice to have many editions of Vista differentiated sometimes by key features is causing Microsoft quite a bit of trouble. Had Microsoft enabled or disabled features like Aero Glass based on a machine's capabilities rather than the version of the OS in use, this suit would have likely been avoided.
So basically if they had based a machines capabilities at run-time based on it's hardware they wouldn't have been culpable but because it was done through marketing they may have mislead consumers.
Shh.
I love it! I'll present that quote to whoever says "I don't understand all the furore around Vista: I installed it and it runs quite fine". Haha.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Dammit I hate it when I google something I read over the last few days from memory and then see the link in the summary.
Shh.
You're likely to cause a rant by UbuntuDupe.... Nobody wants that.
Taking people's icons away and forcing them to use the start menu confuses users.
I don't like many icons on the desktop. Even still, its easy to turn them back on.
Changing the names and locations of things with every new version so people have to learn all over again is an ordeal.
My Documents has been "My Documents" from Win95 until Vista. Now its simply called Documents. Ya, big stretch.
Internet Explorer 7 took away "History" unless you want to clutter up your screen with an explorer bar. Where did the history pull-down go.
Click the star icon. The explorer bar opens temporarly. Click History. Ya, difficult.
Parents want to check up on where their kids have been surfing. Why the hell would they take a feature away?
What feature was taken away? Nevermind that Vista includes Parental Controls.
It boggles the mind! Microsoft has made computing more complicated and confusing for the average user at every turn when they need to make it simpler. It is a shame they are still in business.
I've found it much easier. What's your answer? Linux I suppose? Or Apple, which is the lock-in leader in the computing industry?
So some product is coming down the pipe. Create the hype, send marketing a check, send the sticker through management commitee, order distributors to slap it on any new machine now carrying Vista while pulling XP, and many complaints later...
What do you mean it takes 10 minutes to open my email?
Seriously, this is a technical industry. MS botched the match up with what technology could do, and sold the equivolent CPU demand of 2 full-render instances of 3D Studio Max on machines barely able to handle 3D flash rendering to people who just want to do email and Yahoo games? Yeah, glad I wasn't the technical advisor on that project.
Last time I check, Microsoft doesn't really make hardware. Saying a machine is "Vista Capable" is like saying "Hey, it should run on that hardware". So why aren't there lawsuits against companies like Dell and HP?
Trying to DoS Google? Good luck with that!
Sure, the customers, yeah. But not the costumers. Those people won't settle for shoddy second-rate machines; designing costumes takes some flashy-ass graphics and alpha effects.
Microsoft is gonna have some pretty serious egg on their faces the next time an academy award for best costume design is awarded, and the winner thanks Apple because MS executives didn't have their priorities straight.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Not down here. But then I can throw a stone out my window and hit their HQ.
You can always count on Allchin going the extra mile. He proved that in DOJ vs. MS. Allchin has had a special place in my heart, ever since he was at the center of faking the MS video which attempted to show it was not possible to remove IE from Windows during the anti-trust trial. He should have served time for that.
No, it's not sweet and it's not justice. It still reeks.
Yeah, the same way the first words out of my kid's mouth are "I'm sorry"... AFTER he gets caught. Does anyone really expect us to belive that no one with a clue could have seen this coming? This is just business as usual at MS: they'll do whatever we want, who cares if there's any benefit at all for the user. So, there's no benefit, and in fact it does more harm than good? Eh, whatever. Whenever something goes wrong in MS-land, IF there is a HUGE outcry then MAYBE they'll respond. It's like in Fight Club: "If A times B times C is less than X, we don't do a recall."
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
How about Handi-capable?
I'm in Toronto (currently @ King and Bay St), and Google's working fine for me.
we fucking get it. think of the children could mean : Think dirty thoughts about them!
Ha ha. Ha fuckin ha. Funny the first five times? Maybe. The next 500 times (this is no exaggeration for the number of times I have read this joke on slashdot!!!? NO.
IT'S DEAD, JIM!!
now if you had been talking about what a beowulf cluster of soviet CHILDREN think about old korean YOU...
Simple - their customers are the studios, MPAA, RIAA, etc. They want to sell them the idea of using MicrosoftWindowsDRM on their products.
What - you thought you were Microsofts' customer? You're a consumer, not a customer. And you'll consume whatever they feed you, until you get sick of it and either die or switch.
Kevin Smith on Prince
It's working now.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Sadly, all I can do for most people who say they feel lost is recommend the "For Dummies" line of books. If they have to have Windows because that is what work or school uses, Mac and Linux are not options. Microsoft needs to do better. I could quickly put together a focus group that would give them an earful, but I doubt that they care.
How ya like dat?
This ain't tech support.
I was sysadmin for the Ad company that had the Microsoft account in the UK.
One of the things I was asked was 'Will it run inside these specs', which I think was 2MB RAM, and not much disk at all..
The answer I gave was that yes it would, if you left it to boot up for a good 10 minutes, and didn't want to run any applications on top of it. Or install anything else either.
The resounding answer to that was "Great, we CAN advertise that it'll run on those specs". Even if I point blank told them it'd be useless, and to never advocate running it like that.
The point is that Advertising is all about pushing how far you can bend the truth (or lack of it) without crossing the line of blatant lying that'll get you sued or fined.
The "Vista Ready" sticker is an advertising token as much as anything. Yes, you can install Vista on it. Yes, it'll run Vista. Doesn't say anything about doing anything else with it (hey, it never said it'd run the latest greatest game, or even load your word processor!).
I run the blogs over on Intel Software Network, and this has been a hot topic of, erm, "discussion" there. People are REALLY mad when they buy a new laptop that says "Vista Capable", and find out later that it really meant "Sorry, you can't run the Aero theme eye candy, DVD Maker, or Movie Maker, because your Intel 915 integrated graphics chip doesn't qualify for a WDDM driver." Somehow explaining that they should have bought a machine that was "Vista Premium Ready" doesn't make them feel better.
Seriously, between the two blog posts (one with video!) on the topic that I've done, there are over 800 comments (by FAR the most visited and commented on posts on the whole blog), most of them mad at Intel for not providing a WDDM driver for 915 graphics chipsets. Problem is, we can't. It doesn't meet the WDDM spec, which is controlled by Microsoft.
Here are the posts in question:
Video: Why Intel 915 graphics don't have a WDDM driver for Vista
Update on the 915 Graphics WDDM Vista Driver Issue
I'm actually relieved to see this news story come out, not that it makes me happy to point the finger at Microsoft (it doesn't), but to at least point all those angry blog commenters at a 3rd party source that sheds some light on the problem. I maintain my naive hope that it will educate and placate them all, and they'll stop emailing me and calling my cell phone. ;-)
At least there's one very useful Vista capable machine.
Thank you BlendTech
If you've spent $2100 on any computer in the past 5 years, it's more than capable of running Vista w/o any problems.
I know that Slashdot likes to focus on marketting cockups, but parent's comment about NO ONE thinking about consumers rings very true. It's not that they don't think about the consumer, though... Marketers only think about how they're going to persuade the consumer that they want something, not whether or not the consumer actually wants something or will be better off without it. The sales team (I was in sales before analytics) only thinks about how they're going to convince their customer that the customer's consumers (or end-users) really want this product. The actual consumer is the customer's problem. The engineering team, meanwhile, is upset that sales and marketting don't want to give the go-ahead for their Widgetizer 5000, which will almost certainly be out of alpha in 3 year and rarely ever turns its user into a gerbil anymore.
That's just us folk in the U.S. dismantling your infrastructure. After all, it worked so well in the Middle East.
To top it off we'd need a LOLCats, so try to imagine a picture of Uncle Sam tangled up in a pile of fiber optic cables with the following caption:
I'M IN UR INFRASTRUCTURE CUTTIN' ALL UR CABL3Z.
Your courageous and selfless spelling corrections have made me a better person.
Class Actions are almost worthless unless you're one of the lawyers involved. You get a $10 discount coupon you can use on your next purchase from Microsoft. The lawyers pocket millions. I wish there was a better way of dealing with rogue corporations' transgressions.
Like, Nash and Allchin, like how long have they been, like, on this Linux Apple fanboy site? Like, all you guys ever do is spread, like, FUD about Microsoft products. Like, you suck, man. Really. Get a clue, man. You guys just hate Microsoft and your crappy operating systems just, like, suck which is why those guys didn't really say any of that stuff about Vista, like, sucking. Vista rocks, man.
Word up.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Please someone show me one ad for Vista that didn't feature Aero. Aside from "enhanced security", that's all people were buying it for.
'cause the typical xp or win 95 user has reinstalled...
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Everyone is making the assumption that Microsoft was in the driver's seat on this one. Microsoft has two major constituencies - The end user, and the OEMs.
I have a funny feeling that may bare out upon farther investigation, that it was the computer manufacturers that demanded the "Vista Capable" designation. After all, they have to keep foisting those 512MB Celeron machines on the store shelves of Walmat and Target on someone. We also know that those machines targeting the price sensitive consumer are targeting are simply not adequate.
What I will take Microsoft to task over is caving in to the OEMs.
This is a boring sig
Uninstall notepad++ and reinstall it without the auto-update option, they said something about the function being fixed a while back, but it isn't yet sadly.
You know, a while back I saw some ~$300 machines that work pretty well under Windows XP (but of course were totally unusable by default with Windows Vista Home Basic + all the bundled garbage)... but a $2,100 e-mail machine?! That's just... really sad. What did it have, like, quad core hamster power or something?
Its funny, because all the /.ers were complaining about how "dumbed down" the XP interface was compared to previous versions. Believe it or not, MS does employ UX people. If there are STILL people that can't figure things out.. well, I always though the "For Dummies" books would be more accurately title "For Raving Retards."
I write sci-fi for metalheads
- Home Basic - cannot join a domain and does not include Media Center; equivalent to XP Home Edition
- Home Premium - cannot join a domain but does include Media Center; equivalent to XP Media Center Edition
What are they thinking? MY home has a domain! Home Basic also does not includeBantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Am I the only one who thinks this when I see "Vista capable"?
It's convincing the cripples they, too, can party. Say no to Vista and Linux. Say hello to BSD!
This may help; when they ask you will it run in that configuration, assume that if you say yes they're going to make you use it in that configuration. Then give your answer. It's a lot easier to just tell them "NO!" then.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
#2 Using the Windows GUI on Windows NT.
#3 Exchange Server focus on Email instead of "Groupware"
#4 The promotion of SQL Server over FoxPro
#5 Visual Basic.
#6 Visual InterDev & ASP.
#7 Visual Basic.NET
#8 NetBeui over IPX.
#9 Windows ME
#10 Microsoft Bob
A mixed bag to say the least. MS Office was probably the single best Marketing decision ever made at Microsoft, though developers hated having to build inter-app compatibility. Rather than compete with Notes on a feature for feature basis, Microsoft marketers went straight for what was WRONG with Notes instead.
So, Marketing's domination at Microsoft did some great things for the bottom line, while doing some horrible things for Microsoft reputation in the tech community. Our great great-grandchildren will still be reading jokes about MS Bob on the Internet.
* Well not Microsoft. They can probably scare up $150 million just going through the couches in the intern lounge.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Or else you're part of the problem.
Your answer you related doesn't make sense: people don't run Windows, they run Applications. And if there's no room for the application, what was the point of turning the computer on?
Solitaire?
If I'm not mistaken, Microsoft has stated that they don't want DRM either. It is forced on them by the music and movie industry -- "either DRM the shit out of everything and we will allow you to compete with Apple or no music for you!" is essentially what the industry told Microsoft.
The Vista capable hardware is mostly decent, it's the awful software which is the problem.
SP1 doesn't seem to improve it much either.
Microsoft's customers are OEMs. I am an OEM today, and I paid for Vista OEM edition therefore I am their customer.
From the article: "I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine"
It's so refreshing to see helpless non-technical users working for Microsoft. =)
He could always find a highschool kid to load XP and find drivers for him.
In all fairness I'm sure it can play solitaire as well.
If you install stock Windows (not a recovery disc) to a laptop, you can easily run into the same problems
Mod parent up, he's spot on on this one. Having had to rescue many a PC or laptop whose rescue disk or partition has gone by bye bye means lots of things not working properly, and a long tedious hunt for drivers, of which only about 75% will work. For the rest, you'll find yourself poring over reams of forum posts to find the magical workaround to finish the last few.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
"Never interfere with your adversary when they are in the process of committing suicide."
Or something to that effect.
"Ovaltine? A crummy commercial? Son of a bitch!"
mod me funny
Did you read the post you are answering?
It seems to me that you both are in complete agreement. The "right" level of marketing should be where engineers design a useful product of good quality and marketers try to make that product known to everybody. When marketing gets primacy is when it's overdone, or done to a low-quality product.
You're mistaken. Originally (back before iTunes even existed) Microsoft was pushing DRM to the video industry as a way to securely digitally ship movies to theatres, so the MPAA was (and still is) their customer. You are just a consumer..
Kevin Smith on Prince
I am of course aware of the controversy surrounding the production of ethanol. The parent was however not talking about this, but rather about what people are "willing to pay" for. And people who drive on E85 are, I guess, most willing to pay for a cleaner environment, otherwise why would they use it? Again, what people actually do is not of any importance here, it is what they want to and believe that they do.
Don't be crazy anymore!
I write sci-fi for metalheads
they've changed a lot and are starting differently with the next gen OS
How wonderful! In the meantime I'll keep using my Mac, OK?
(Next you'll be telling us they've adopted ethical business practices. Feh.)
you had me at #!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Fuel_Management/
In fact, the first concept car they showed it in was a 12-cylinder engine which would only fire on 6 cylinders if you were just driving around the city.
Boats launch each unique,
Rivers flow through the valleys
leading to one sea.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I'd rather use an OS that gives me access to my files when I wish, and not having the possibility to block me from using it if some other company wants to.
c++;
Not that this comment will be read so late in the game, but it irks me that internal Microsoft emails were revealed through the legal system. All companies look like crap when you make their most candid discussions public. I find it unsettling that these messages can be used against them in such a way, because it would seem to lead us to a state where marketing BS invades internal technical discussions, creating a sort of double-think / no-privacy situation in the workplace. I just think that private thoughts deserve protection.
Flame on.
Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
If they really have to check on the kids, and were confused because the "history" is gone, I'd imagine that the kids probably know more about the computer than the parents who are likely to be checking the wrong browser after the kids have poking around on IRC anyways.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I don't know where he's shopping, but I couldn't even imagine a configuration worth anywhere even close to $2,100 that couldn't run Vista WELL.
That just sounds like a ridiculous hyperbole or this man got ripped off by more than just Microsoft...
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
"I've found it much easier. What's your answer? Linux I suppose?"
The gentleman is correct!
One and a half days to get Vista working acceptably on a fresh-from the store
new computer vs 20 mins to install and run Ubuntu.
I think the correct term is addict. Perhaps the slang junkie.
The problem is if you bought XP when it first came out then you have a CD with barely any modern drivers.
Linux has the advantage of moving along pretty fast. If you install from a Linux CD made the same time as XP from 2001 then you'd have loads of issues.
What - you thought you were Microsofts' customer? You're a consumer, not a customer. And you'll consume whatever they feed you, until you get sick of it and either die or switch.
:-)
:D
Switching is easy if you have Ubuntu
I've switched several of my systems already to 7.04 (looking at 7.10) and I'm down to only two Windows systems. One will need to stay (for now) with Wintendo and the other will be replaced in another couple months.
The motivation came after I checked out Vista. No I don't hate Microsoft. They are the reason I've been so busy these last few years. If they wrote good software then I'd probably be unemployed
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
F8 is for the windows boot options.
F6 is for the driver disk (during windows install) you need for your RAID configuration or fancy new hard drive controller.
I've missed the F6 screen MANY times during install only to find out I have to start all over and get it right -- or the installation routine can't see my hard drive.
While there are few controllers included, the vast majority of recent HD controllers still required the F6 option with a floppy. That's right. I said floppy. No Cd's allowed.
I just bought a 4GB quad core processor and I'm wondering just how Vista capable it is...
I agree 100%, and this is exactly what is happening at major corporations. Legal-driven corporate policy now discourages all open and honest criticism of your own products because emails can be subpoenaed in court. This policy ironically leads to worse products, because the company is afraid to permit open and honest internal communication between engineers. You're only allowed to comment if it's good news. Engineers wither under this kind of restraint.
Windows is a 32-bit shell for a 16-bit extension to an 8-bit operating system designed for a 4-bit microprocessor by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition. You're rather out of date.
The quote was (presumably) originally a description of Windows 1.0 - 3.1, but even then was never really true. DOS has always been 16-bit: even the original PC-DOS 1.0 (before it was even renamed to MS-DOS) needed at least an 8088, which was a 16-bit CPU (albeit with an 8-bit external data bus and support for 8-bit code). With respect to Windows 9x, the quote's even more dubious: whilst Windows did use DOS as a bootloader, it certainly wasn't just a shell on top of DOS (Wikipedia on Windows 9x).
But if it's very dubious for Windows 9x, it's just plain wrong for the Windows NT line, which was written from the ground up with a hardware abstraction layer for the x86, Alpha, and MIPS architectures; a list which by 2001 had morphed into x86 and x86-64. (Wikipedia on Windows NT's architecture). Consumer versions of Windows have been based on the NT kernel since Windows XP in 2001.
What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
Why their autoupdater requires admin access is a mystery, but probably just crap coding -- I find most programs autoupdaters work just fine without elevating (though obviously you need to elevate if you want to install an update for a program that's not installed in your userspace).
What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
How far do you take it? XP can run on an 8-MHz Pentium with 20MB RAM (for sufficiently low values of "run"). Can my pretty triangle (proven Turing-equivalent to a Core 2 Duo!) be said to run Vista?
What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
I worked as an HP laptop repair tech - ALL INSTALLS (whether or not it's a factory restore) are low res, minus Vista which starts natively at 800x600, which is medium res.
What's you're seeing is the 'intelligent' logic in the LCD control circuitry effectively scaling up the image, nothing more.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
The only test that Microsoft cares about before some manufacturer slaps a "Vista Capable" label on one of their computers is that they leave enough room for a Microsoft Certificate of Authenticity that proves the end-user is wasting money on a bug-ridden POS of an OS.
"You're young, you're drunk, you're in bed, you have knives; shit happens." -- Angelina Jolie
So do we, Zonk. So do we.
Sig this!
Actually, Win9X CAN probably roughly be described as a 'shell on top of DOS' - Win9X would frequently and regularly drop the system down into 16-bit mode for various reasons, e.g. it could use DOS drivers if 32-bit drivers weren't available, and it very frequently would - in my experience most systems did. This is one of the reasons it was so unstable, because while in 16-bit mode the entire system is open game.
I recall using the Intel profiler on various Win98 systems back in the day, it had a utility that could tell you, and all the systems I tested spent a significant amount of their time (e.g. often 20% - 40%) in 16-bit mode - absurd for a "32-bit OS", and a complete joke.
Other kludgy 16-bit crap that showed through in that ugly line of OSs right through to Me were things like the Win16mutex, not to mention all the other 16-bit limitations floating around in the APIs, like the listbox control item count, the number of pixels on a GDI surface, and so on.
Win9X would also 'launch on top of' DOS, leaving it there all the time, and in the older versions you could even 'exit' back to DOS, or configure the system to remain in DOS without launching Windows. But the main clincher must be using DOS drivers. And actually even before Win9X was Win32s, 32-bit extensions to win3.1, which in fact just became Win95 after a few changes and a new look and feel.
But you just keep trying to rewrite history there buddy.
The 8-bit OS may be a reference to CP/M or QDOS, although that one may be a bit more iffy indeed (or I suspect there may be other versions of this joke floating around).
I may be the only person to think so, but I think Home Basic is the best. It's not bloated like Ultimate (Yes I have tried ultimate). I use BeyondTV to play my movies.
All the BS aside....
/is/ a downgrade from xp until you do some major tweaking, but how in the world does $2,100 not get you a blazing machine these days? I mean come on.. it's so cheap I don't even build my own anymore (Dell business machines are great) core2duo 3ghz 4gigs of ram 500gb sata etc etc etc for well well well well well under $2100 (about 500, HAH)
doesn't anyone else wonder how dude (who works for microsoft, mind you) buys a computer for $2,100 and it can't run vista?
I mean, vista
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
Linux users, meanwhile, and thanks to great developers and package maintainers, have the luxury of choosing to use aforementioned installer from nvidia or the one that comes nicely packaged with his distro. In the case of Ubuntu, one need only respond to the notification balloon on his desktop which prompts him to install the nvidia driver with a click of the mouse.
Want Windows to check for updated hardware drivers for you the very moment you log in? Good luck.
db
I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
As I was going up the stair,
I met a man, who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today,
Oh, how I wish he'd go away.
What really unsettles me is the way Vista silently reduces various features and performance options depending on your "Windows Experience Index." I've already had to modify the registry once to address this issue, and when I got back the functionality I desired, it worked fine... not fast, but in any case no slower than anything else on the computer.
I don't have the time to sift through forums and whatnot looking for what I may be missing, but I have to wonder... am I getting some scaled back version of Vista simply because my WEI isn't high enough?
On a random note, since I am also using an HP warranty replacement and thus was ushered unhappily into using Vista, the first few times I clicked Shut Down I erroneously assumed that I could close the computer lid and the shut down would take care of itself. Not so! I found that the next day I'd open the lid, and what do you think happened next? It resumed shutting down.
I bought a top of the line Sony VAIO that was marked VIsta Capable and paid $2000, just to find out a while later that it was short video ram to run aero. In fact after I bought four Vista Capable machines, I made it to the Microsoft site and found out the extent to which I had wasted a portion of my life savings. I was a TechNET Plus licensee and bought the machines for development because I had Vista available in Technet Plus. About $5000 all in all. Two notebook and one desktop. I use Apple Macintosh now and won't be spending any more money with Microsoft. This last routine with Vista Capable left a $5000 bad taste in my mouth that doesn't want to go away. I bought two VAIO notebooks and two HP desktop machines. In addition to the hardware shortage, drivers and installation media problems made it all a nightmare.
As I don't use it. But I found that for modifying NTFS permissions in XP, you can do the following if you don't want to muck about with cacls / subinacls:
/user:ad\asadm5 "c:\program files\internet explorer\iexplore.exe c:"
runas
Tap in your password and you have an admin shell.
HTH
F_T
And if you don't hit in time you restart your install.
You'd know that if you've installed XP even once on a modern machine, since you get no SATA without it.
Thanks for playing. Next time write your fanboy response about something you know about.
That was zero-sum.
Rethinking email
For real SlashDot?
You are now posting stories that are 10 months old just to prove you hate Microsoft.
What is this site coming to?
I'll try anything once. Twice if it tastes good
The Vista capable phrase was wrong, or at least should have been prefaced when you went to the store and asked will this run Vista, they should say it would run Vista basic. Sortly after this fiasco in my area at least all the adds had small text saying that Vista capable = will run Vista Basic.
Ubuntu installed: $50.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
E85 was/is sold by prominently displaying that it costs less than regular gas (which around here is ~E10). This price difference is all that matters to some people.
LOL! Just found your post by coincidence. (How notorious am I by now?) Well, you got a laugh out of me, which is much appreciated =-)
But don't worry, now that some internet hate machine has modded down my posts en masse, it'll be a while before I can post more than five times per day...
Apology to Ubuntu forum.