Microsoft wouldn't have a PRAYER in a "look and feel" lawsuit against anyone. Indeed, they MADE themselves by cloning everything else.
Not to mention, a lawsuit against Linux wouldn't be well received. Linux is the only competition MS has right now. To do that would be to invite more than the impotent action taken against them by the DOJ.
Which is why they are doing it by proxy, through SCO. By givng SCO a little dosh, so they stay around at least long enough for this frivilous suit drags on, MS gets to reap the FUD.
"There is no love loss between me and MS, but my XP machine EASILY "crashes" 5-10 times a day. What triggers these you might be wondering? Internet Explorer. Every couple days I have to reboot the machine because explorer will refuse to go any further"
Good point.
I use Opera, not IE as my web browser. And, XP rarely crashes on me. Sure, the occasional app crashes, but I've not has a "the system is locked" crash since I QUIT using IE as a browser...
"As I've said before, it's illegal in (at least) the UK to interfere with the operation of a unique ID'd wireless device. Read the Act carefully."
You limeys might consider ridding yourselves of King George;)
Seriously though, I don't see us getting rid of RFID here in the US. RFID is the WET DREAM of the likes of Felon Poindexter and the others who want to spy on American Citizens. An unholy alliance of common interests of the Big Brother types and the Marketers will be HARD to break!
"The solution here is to break the system. Take razors off the shelf then leave them elsewhere within the store. You're not shoplifting and you can cause enough noise that the system is worthless."
Until Fritz and Berman pass the Digital Millenium Shopping Act that makes it a felony to "circumvent" (or obfuscate) any hair brained "shoplifiting protection system" even if you don't steal ANYTHING.
Sooner or later the day will come when we are guilty of a crime for simply making it DIFFICULT for private and government authorites to track our every move...
"It's getting dirty. Seriously, mineralization or some such process. They are stainless, so it isn't rusting, and believe it or not, your face and beard are pretty soft, compared to the metal, so the blade isn't getting dull. It might be bending though, if you are manhandling it a bit too much. Try making sure to whip the water off of the blades when you are done shaving, and maybe not storing it where there is lots of humidity. It might end up lasting a bit longer."
I use my Mach 3 blades far longer than "recommended". Each one lasts me at least a week, if not two. At $8 for a 4 pack, I'm paying $1-2 a week to shave.
I rinse the thing off every time I use it, and don't change blades until it loses effectiveness.
Don't discard the blade just because the green strip has worn down to white.
Around here, Kroger was the first to introduce these things.
And to get it you HAVE to give them your name, address, phone number, date of birth, sex, etc. Which they have of me, just not the correct ones;)
At first, it was advantageous to get one because they actually DID offer lower prices on some items. But now they just make it impossible to get NORMAL prices on staple items unless you have it. Not SALE prices, NORMAL prices. Don't have your Kroger card? Then be prepared to pay $6 for a 12-pack of Coke instead of $3.
"bad idea, since razor blades are metal, unless you like fire. fire is fun! I swear, this 20-second/2-minute thing kills your ability to actively participate in a discussion here..."
Couldn't something be made akin to a bulk eraser that will send the correct frequency of RF at the tag to overload and destroy it?
"Oh come on, this is/. - any technical innovation that actually helps companies prevent consumers from stealing their product is just another sign of corporate tyranny, dude..."
Then you won't object to the police RFID'ing all your posessions and putting CCD cameras with RFID readers in your home, car, office, etc.
After all, that'd greatly reduce the chance of you stealing, and if you do, it'd catch you.
"Lost mine a while ago. I've always hated their intrusiveness. I suggest that others lose theirs too before, like the article says, they become the ultimate "personality profiler". Just lose the sodding things. Be apathetic *enough* to screw tescos."
The "loyalty" cards have to be used to get the lowest price listed on the shelf, or else you are paying a lot more. At least, that's how it works here in the US, at Krogers and other stores that use them.
So, what do I do? Naturally, I've never filled out the card with ANY factual information;)
Correct! All it says, is, "Here is our code. You can use it if you want to, in any way you want to, so long as you allow the next person to do the same with the result"
In contrast, a MSEULA reads, "This is OUR software, you own nothing, you can use it only in the way WE say you can (subject to change at any time), if you modify it in any way we will sue you and your descendants back to the stone age"
Given the fact that a MSEULA leaves your ENTIRE ORG, and even YOUR HOME theoretically open to PRIVATE BSA goon squads (due to the fact you agreed to it without a signature), I'd call the MSEULA "viral" LONG before I'd call the GPL that.
The GPL is viral only in this sense: It's a poison pill to companies like MS who'd love to use open code in their closed products, thus saving lots of money they'd otherwise have to pay developers. They use BSD code all the time. And never return anything.
"Well, at least SCO can't patent the protection racket, since there most definitely is prior art"
Not true. The USPTO seems to be willing to patent things that have been going on for millenia if you append "on the internet", or "with a computer" to it.
"Comments like this are what the big-wigs lawyer folk look at. Yes Linux is free in terms of cost, but in order to use it you must agree to the terms and conditions set out in a legally binding (hopefully proven soon) agreement."
The GPL puts NO restrictions on use of GPL'ed software. It comes into play only if you want to modify and redistribute it. You either agree to the terms, or else you have no right to use the code, except under normal copyright law.
"If the GPL failed in court, could that be a precident for other licenses?"
If it came down to that, even Microsoft would have to jump in ON THE SIDE OF THE GPL! If they didn't, _ALL_ EULA's would be void. There is no way the much less restrictive GPL could be tossed out in court and yet the draconian MSEULA not be.
"And as for SCO making you pay? It's valid.... and make sure you send me that $5 if you have Windows on your system... I have a friend whose sister dated a mailman that delivered mail to somoene who was in the same city as Bob in Canada who helped develop windows."
Extortion, plain and simple. SCO has no right to charge a license fee for Linux. Either the code SCO distributes is GPL, or it isn't. If it isn't, then SCO has lost all right to what they DID NOT THEMSELVES write. Since SCO won't disclose WHAT part of the Linux kernel is "theirs" they haven't even MADE a proper claim.
Methinks SCO is on the wrong side of the RICO statute... McBride and co better watch out... Prosecutors lately seem more willing to give CEO's rides in the back of police cars on their way to jail, post-Enron.
"Now, apply this to ink. Granted, it's a lot different that marijuana laws - but, the state will wind up doing nothing to help the federal government in this matter, which is a big win. And it'll turn a blind-eye to anyone who wants to keep producing 3rd-party ink. Another win."
And if the Feds start spending $millions of dollars to enforce Lexmark's WEAK DMCA claim on carts in North Carolina, they won't have anything to back it up except that it "harms corporate monopolies".
They get away with enforcement againt pot growers by claiming harm to the user, etc.
DMCA actions will be very transparent, and will make even the average idiot see that the government has long ago ceased to be bound by Constitutional limits.
"The big problem with this argument is that corps are getting bigger and bigger. There's gotta be restraints on them here and there to prevent them from stifling progress in any given area of development."
If you allow Lexmark, HP, et all to monopolize ink replacements, you can't then NOT allow Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc, to not sell cars for $100 that require "fuel tank" replacments (chipped, so you have to buy the factory original and TRUST them to tell you that it's empty) for $100 or more each.
Law is supposed to apply universally, to everyone (else it's unjust).
How can the law allow the printer industry to do it, but not the automobile industry?
"3. Legislation like the DMCA gives DRM protected ink a ridiculous amount of legislative protections. In other words the law is part of the problem and claiming "dont change the laws" is silly when a law like the DMCA exists."
The fact that a state, especially one of the most important IT states (North Carolina and RTP) is legislating local exceptions to the DMCA, would suggest great FLAWS in that law... Ones that a true DEMOCRATIC process (process not party) would not allow.
North Carolina has a LOT of influence. It's the eastern US's Silicon Valley. But not as high tax or as stupid as California.
They could ban the sale of DMCA crippled devices, for instance, within their state.
They could legislate the DMCA void within the state borders, for example.
I give an example.
Radar/laser detectors are legal, Federally. But, Virginia and DC call them illegal. So, it's illegal to sell them in VA or DC, even though they are legal everywhere else.
(note that VA rivals only OH as the pre-eminent speedtrap state)
You also can't use a radar/laser detector within their borders even if you are FROM a place where they are legal, and bough them there.
So, a state CAN make it illegal to sell chipped or crippled ink carts, or even to USE them inside their borders.
To rule otherwise makes anti-speed trap countermeasures legal everywhere;)
Hey, you can't have it both ways. Unless you are a multinational megacorp, but I digress...
"The big money is in toner not inkjet ink. Toner cartridges are the cartridges that Lexmark put anti-refill technology on. Things like counting the amount of times the drum roles restricting the cartridge to so many pages printed (even if there's still toner left in the cartridge!) there are companies out there that can circumvent this"
I HATE Lexmark laser printers. They suck. Setting them up on a network is a LOT harder than a HP or Okidata. And, they need repairs much more often.
We still have HP LaserJet 2's and 3's out there, along with 2000's, 4000's, etc, that only have to have consumables replaced (drums, toner).
Some more than a decade old!
I've YET to see a Lexmark Optra laser last more than 3 years before it's too expensive to repair.
I won't touch a HP inkjet anymore, but their laser printers are the best.
"I always buy my printers based on how much it'll run me to replace the ink afterwards. Not necessarily comparing *just* that, granted, but it's a big factor. These days, my favored brand is generally Epson, and my still-relatively-new Stylus C62 has been good to me. And replacement ink doesn't break the bank."
If I ever buy another inkjet printer (I've yet to replace my dead HP 672C), I will likely go for Canon. They have seperate ink tanks for each color, and each tank is less than $8.
Most likely I will wait for used color lasers to come down below $500.
Until then, I'll continue to use my 4 year old, acquired for free Okidata OkiPage 4 that is still on the first toner that I got for it.
"I half expect Kentucky's government to jump in and ban the sale of replacement ink cartridges to protect Kentucky jobs or some other nonsense"
I live in Ky (sadly, born here).
The govenor is too busy keeping himself out of prison for using FEDERAL funds to get himself laid.
The attorney general is too busy RUNNING for govenor to keep the state for the Democrat Party that has owned the state legislature since before the Civil War.
"I'm glad someone's deciding to finally act on this. Ink cartridges should not be costing 20,30,40 dollars. It's ink... the technology has been around for several hundred years. Now granted, printer technology has only been around 20 years, but still, it's not like it's rocket science (or rocket fuel, for that matter:)"
Ironically, the inkjet printer was invented to COMBAT the high cost of laser printers in the late 80's/early 90's. AFAIK, the first was the HP DeskJet. At the time, inkjets were FAR cheaper than lasers, produced comparable quality, could do color, and completely displaced the dot matrix printer as the consumer printer of choice.
Now I find myself missing my old dot matrix... I bought a ribbon for that thing, like, every 3 months (costing $5), and printed the HELL out of it.
But now I have a laser (Okidata OkiPage 4w) that I got for free, and haven't YET used the first toner cart (over a year).
"Supercedes federal copyright law in North Carolina?
I doubt it, although Lexmark would be a fool to push it."
Yes they would.
The Feds only have the right to regulate INTERSTATE commerce. (much abused, BTW) Not INTRA-state.
So NC could make it completely legal to produce knock off inkjet carts and sell them *IN* NC.
I don't really see how the DMCA even protects Lexmark in this case. It DOES have a (weak) "interoperability" clause that would seem to make selling refills and compatible carts legal.
CONSUMABLE items should be exempt from copyright. They are hardly creative works. I suppose patent may apply, but considering that HP invented the inkjet, would Lexmark have any credible claim to patenting an inkjet cart?
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Microsoft wouldn't have a PRAYER in a "look and feel" lawsuit against anyone. Indeed, they MADE themselves by cloning everything else.
Not to mention, a lawsuit against Linux wouldn't be well received. Linux is the only competition MS has right now. To do that would be to invite more than the impotent action taken against them by the DOJ.
Which is why they are doing it by proxy, through SCO. By givng SCO a little dosh, so they stay around at least long enough for this frivilous suit drags on, MS gets to reap the FUD.
"There is no love loss between me and MS, but my XP machine EASILY "crashes" 5-10 times a day. What triggers these you might be wondering? Internet Explorer. Every couple days I have to reboot the machine because explorer will refuse to go any further"
Good point.
I use Opera, not IE as my web browser. And, XP rarely crashes on me. Sure, the occasional app crashes, but I've not has a "the system is locked" crash since I QUIT using IE as a browser...
That all you have to do in the United States to legally get away with extortion is to incorporate...
Any non corp did the same thing SCaldera is doing, THIS PUBLICALLY, they'd already be under arrest.
"As I've said before, it's illegal in (at least) the UK to interfere with the operation of a unique ID'd wireless device. Read the Act carefully."
;)
You limeys might consider ridding yourselves of King George
Seriously though, I don't see us getting rid of RFID here in the US. RFID is the WET DREAM of the likes of Felon Poindexter and the others who want to spy on American Citizens. An unholy alliance of common interests of the Big Brother types and the Marketers will be HARD to break!
"The solution here is to break the system. Take razors off the shelf then leave them elsewhere within the store. You're not shoplifting and you can cause enough noise that the system is worthless."
Until Fritz and Berman pass the Digital Millenium Shopping Act that makes it a felony to "circumvent" (or obfuscate) any hair brained "shoplifiting protection system" even if you don't steal ANYTHING.
Sooner or later the day will come when we are guilty of a crime for simply making it DIFFICULT for private and government authorites to track our every move...
"It's getting dirty. Seriously, mineralization or some such process. They are stainless, so it isn't rusting, and believe it or not, your face and beard are pretty soft, compared to the metal, so the blade isn't getting dull. It might be bending though, if you are manhandling it a bit too much. Try making sure to whip the water off of the blades when you are done shaving, and maybe not storing it where there is lots of humidity. It might end up lasting a bit longer."
I use my Mach 3 blades far longer than "recommended". Each one lasts me at least a week, if not two. At $8 for a 4 pack, I'm paying $1-2 a week to shave.
I rinse the thing off every time I use it, and don't change blades until it loses effectiveness.
Don't discard the blade just because the green strip has worn down to white.
Around here, Kroger was the first to introduce these things.
;)
And to get it you HAVE to give them your name, address, phone number, date of birth, sex, etc. Which they have of me, just not the correct ones
At first, it was advantageous to get one because they actually DID offer lower prices on some items. But now they just make it impossible to get NORMAL prices on staple items unless you have it. Not SALE prices, NORMAL prices. Don't have your Kroger card? Then be prepared to pay $6 for a 12-pack of Coke instead of $3.
"bad idea, since razor blades are metal, unless you like fire. fire is fun! I swear, this 20-second/2-minute thing kills your ability to actively participate in a discussion here..."
Couldn't something be made akin to a bulk eraser that will send the correct frequency of RF at the tag to overload and destroy it?
RF devices ARE vulnerable in that way...
"...store managers or corporate execs are going to get upset if I use my own lead lined shopping cart from now on.."
What would work better would be some kind of compact jammer that obfuscates the frequencies that the RFID tags use.
"Oh come on, this is /. - any technical innovation that actually helps companies prevent consumers from stealing their product is just another sign of corporate tyranny, dude..."
Then you won't object to the police RFID'ing all your posessions and putting CCD cameras with RFID readers in your home, car, office, etc.
After all, that'd greatly reduce the chance of you stealing, and if you do, it'd catch you.
"Lost mine a while ago. I've always hated their intrusiveness.
;)
I suggest that others lose theirs too before, like the article says, they become the ultimate "personality profiler".
Just lose the sodding things. Be apathetic *enough* to screw tescos."
The "loyalty" cards have to be used to get the lowest price listed on the shelf, or else you are paying a lot more. At least, that's how it works here in the US, at Krogers and other stores that use them.
So, what do I do? Naturally, I've never filled out the card with ANY factual information
My IBM Thinkpad T20 runs Redhat 9.0. And I watch DVD's on it. Sure to piss off MS and the MPAA.
"The GPL is NOT viral."
Correct! All it says, is, "Here is our code. You can use it if you want to, in any way you want to, so long as you allow the next person to do the same with the result"
In contrast, a MSEULA reads, "This is OUR software, you own nothing, you can use it only in the way WE say you can (subject to change at any time), if you modify it in any way we will sue you and your descendants back to the stone age"
Given the fact that a MSEULA leaves your ENTIRE ORG, and even YOUR HOME theoretically open to PRIVATE BSA goon squads (due to the fact you agreed to it without a signature), I'd call the MSEULA "viral" LONG before I'd call the GPL that.
The GPL is viral only in this sense: It's a poison pill to companies like MS who'd love to use open code in their closed products, thus saving lots of money they'd otherwise have to pay developers. They use BSD code all the time. And never return anything.
"Well, at least SCO can't patent the protection racket, since there most definitely is prior art"
Not true. The USPTO seems to be willing to patent things that have been going on for millenia if you append "on the internet", or "with a computer" to it.
"Comments like this are what the big-wigs lawyer folk look at. Yes Linux is free in terms of cost, but in order to use it you must agree to the terms and conditions set out in a legally binding (hopefully proven soon) agreement."
The GPL puts NO restrictions on use of GPL'ed software. It comes into play only if you want to modify and redistribute it. You either agree to the terms, or else you have no right to use the code, except under normal copyright law.
"If the GPL failed in court, could that be a precident for other licenses?"
If it came down to that, even Microsoft would have to jump in ON THE SIDE OF THE GPL! If they didn't, _ALL_ EULA's would be void. There is no way the much less restrictive GPL could be tossed out in court and yet the draconian MSEULA not be.
"And as for SCO making you pay? It's valid.... and make sure you send me that $5 if you have Windows on your system... I have a friend whose sister dated a mailman that delivered mail to somoene who was in the same city as Bob in Canada who helped develop windows."
Extortion, plain and simple. SCO has no right to charge a license fee for Linux. Either the code SCO distributes is GPL, or it isn't. If it isn't, then SCO has lost all right to what they DID NOT THEMSELVES write. Since SCO won't disclose WHAT part of the Linux kernel is "theirs" they haven't even MADE a proper claim.
Methinks SCO is on the wrong side of the RICO statute... McBride and co better watch out... Prosecutors lately seem more willing to give CEO's rides in the back of police cars on their way to jail, post-Enron.
"Now, apply this to ink. Granted, it's a lot different that marijuana laws - but, the state will wind up doing nothing to help the federal government in this matter, which is a big win. And it'll turn a blind-eye to anyone who wants to keep producing 3rd-party ink. Another win."
And if the Feds start spending $millions of dollars to enforce Lexmark's WEAK DMCA claim on carts in North Carolina, they won't have anything to back it up except that it "harms corporate monopolies".
They get away with enforcement againt pot growers by claiming harm to the user, etc.
DMCA actions will be very transparent, and will make even the average idiot see that the government has long ago ceased to be bound by Constitutional limits.
"The big problem with this argument is that corps are getting bigger and bigger. There's gotta be restraints on them here and there to prevent them from stifling progress in any given area of development."
If you allow Lexmark, HP, et all to monopolize ink replacements, you can't then NOT allow Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc, to not sell cars for $100 that require "fuel tank" replacments (chipped, so you have to buy the factory original and TRUST them to tell you that it's empty) for $100 or more each.
Law is supposed to apply universally, to everyone (else it's unjust).
How can the law allow the printer industry to do it, but not the automobile industry?
"3. Legislation like the DMCA gives DRM protected ink a ridiculous amount of legislative protections. In other words the law is part of the problem and claiming "dont change the laws" is silly when a law like the DMCA exists."
The fact that a state, especially one of the most important IT states (North Carolina and RTP) is legislating local exceptions to the DMCA, would suggest great FLAWS in that law... Ones that a true DEMOCRATIC process (process not party) would not allow.
North Carolina has a LOT of influence. It's the eastern US's Silicon Valley. But not as high tax or as stupid as California.
States can regulate all INTRA state commerce.
;)
They could ban the sale of DMCA crippled devices, for instance, within their state.
They could legislate the DMCA void within the state borders, for example.
I give an example.
Radar/laser detectors are legal, Federally. But, Virginia and DC call them illegal. So, it's illegal to sell them in VA or DC, even though they are legal everywhere else.
(note that VA rivals only OH as the pre-eminent speedtrap state)
You also can't use a radar/laser detector within their borders even if you are FROM a place where they are legal, and bough them there.
So, a state CAN make it illegal to sell chipped or crippled ink carts, or even to USE them inside their borders.
To rule otherwise makes anti-speed trap countermeasures legal everywhere
Hey, you can't have it both ways. Unless you are a multinational megacorp, but I digress...
Isn't copyrights supposed to apply to SOFTWARE
(Windows, Linux, Quake, Asimov's "Foundation Trilogy"), etc.
I thought patents were the thing for HARDWARE (ie an ink cart).
"The big money is in toner not inkjet ink. Toner cartridges are the cartridges that Lexmark put anti-refill technology on. Things like counting the amount of times the drum roles restricting the cartridge to so many pages printed (even if there's still toner left in the cartridge!) there are companies out there that can circumvent this"
I HATE Lexmark laser printers. They suck. Setting them up on a network is a LOT harder than a HP or Okidata. And, they need repairs much more often.
We still have HP LaserJet 2's and 3's out there, along with 2000's, 4000's, etc, that only have to have consumables replaced (drums, toner).
Some more than a decade old!
I've YET to see a Lexmark Optra laser last more than 3 years before it's too expensive to repair.
I won't touch a HP inkjet anymore, but their laser printers are the best.
"I always buy my printers based on how much it'll run me to replace the ink afterwards. Not necessarily comparing *just* that, granted, but it's a big factor. These days, my favored brand is generally Epson, and my still-relatively-new Stylus C62 has been good to me. And replacement ink doesn't break the bank."
If I ever buy another inkjet printer (I've yet to replace my dead HP 672C), I will likely go for Canon. They have seperate ink tanks for each color, and each tank is less than $8.
Most likely I will wait for used color lasers to come down below $500.
Until then, I'll continue to use my 4 year old, acquired for free Okidata OkiPage 4 that is still on the first toner that I got for it.
"I half expect Kentucky's government to jump in and ban the sale of replacement ink cartridges to protect Kentucky jobs or some other nonsense"
I live in Ky (sadly, born here).
The govenor is too busy keeping himself out of prison for using FEDERAL funds to get himself laid.
The attorney general is too busy RUNNING for govenor to keep the state for the Democrat Party that has owned the state legislature since before the Civil War.
They have a lot more to think about than Lexmark.
"I'm glad someone's deciding to finally act on this. Ink cartridges should not be costing 20,30,40 dollars. It's ink... the technology has been around for several hundred years. Now granted, printer technology has only been around 20 years, but still, it's not like it's rocket science (or rocket fuel, for that matter :)"
Ironically, the inkjet printer was invented to COMBAT the high cost of laser printers in the late 80's/early 90's. AFAIK, the first was the HP DeskJet. At the time, inkjets were FAR cheaper than lasers, produced comparable quality, could do color, and completely displaced the dot matrix printer as the consumer printer of choice.
Now I find myself missing my old dot matrix... I bought a ribbon for that thing, like, every 3 months (costing $5), and printed the HELL out of it.
But now I have a laser (Okidata OkiPage 4w) that I got for free, and haven't YET used the first toner cart (over a year).
"Supercedes federal copyright law in North Carolina?
I doubt it, although Lexmark would be a fool to push it."
Yes they would.
The Feds only have the right to regulate INTERSTATE commerce. (much abused, BTW) Not INTRA-state.
So NC could make it completely legal to produce knock off inkjet carts and sell them *IN* NC.
I don't really see how the DMCA even protects Lexmark in this case. It DOES have a (weak) "interoperability" clause that would seem to make selling refills and compatible carts legal.
CONSUMABLE items should be exempt from copyright. They are hardly creative works. I suppose patent may apply, but considering that HP invented the inkjet, would Lexmark have any credible claim to patenting an inkjet cart?