Then, using that reasoning, why not have a game that lets you "rise through the ranks" depending on how skillfully you plot against your fellow comrades, until you become a dictator. Once a dictator, the object of the game shifts and you are scored based on how many rights you can violate prior to being caught or prosecuted. Among these challenges are the interrment of certain races based solely on their religious views, the segregation of certain races based on their national origin (assuming your country is attacked) and the killing of innocent children and other civilians who get in your way (as long as they're on foreign soil).
Is a game that mimes historical events and standard American policy too boring for your average audience? It would certainly be much more violent than the current set of video games on trial today. Yet WalMart might be able to sell them without fear of litigation, under the guise of "historical re-enactments."
Now, seriously stop to think about this... if the games targetted a particular ethnic or religious group (instead of hookers), they would be driven out of business by censorship [yes... it exists in greater abundance than our civil liberties do] and the ensuing commotion caused by the various niche organizations that oversee their special-interest group's rights, be it the NAACP, MAHF, JDL, etc...
The point to all this? Somewhere along the line, we [or, more precisely, our government] started dictating who we could and counldn't hate [meaning, special interests] rathern than sending the message that hate in general is bad. And therein lies the problem... we create special exceptions and exemptions rather than addressing the real issue and fixing the problem.
These days, doing the truly right thing is politically incorrect, and will not be tolerated. The facts be damned.
This is nothing new... our company has been a defendant in "wrongful death" lawsuites twice now.
In Joe James, et al. v. Meow Media, Inc., et al. (aka the Paducah, KY school shootings), the defendants claimed that their son visited Persian Kitty's Adult Links [Note: Adult Content], where they viewed violent pornography which caused them to shoot fellow high school students.
As this national fad spread, we were then sued by the defendants in what's popularly known as the Columbine High School Shootings. Again, we had to defend ourselves... in parallel. Two lawsuits, in two different states... and the unsuccessful [by plaintiffs] appeals that followed.
Fortunately, we were able to use the ruling (after plaintiffs had exhausted all appeals) in the first case to get the second case dismissed, late in the game. By then, we had already paid out six figures in legal fees alone. Good thing we're in the "online adult entertainment" business, or else we might have been put out of business.
To those who say "so... sue them back!" -- I strongly recommend you learn more about our legal system (through accredited sources, not word of mouth). I can see the newspaper headlines now... "Family may lose home because of Pornographer's lawsuit, after having recently lost their son."
| | I sincerely doubt some "ceramic nanomaterial" is suitable for absorbing magnetic fields.
Actually, beware of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Popular Science reported (and duplicated) the finding that ceramic heating elements, when heated red-hot, could be cooled (at least to the point of not glowing red) by a strong magnetic field. I've always found this to be fascinating. The article must have appeared 25 years ago or so.
| | The problem is downloaders wouldn't ordinarily buy it.
That's not a problem. Preventing downloaders from downloading copyright material/music which they would otherwise not purchase is not unreasonable. Just because you would never buy an item doesn't grant you license to steal it.
How poorly thought out. If you stop to think about it, spammers are the ones who will pay dearly (eg: $1000/mo+) for "bullet proof" hosting. Advertise the fact that a certain ISP is spammer-friendly, and you're effectively bringing that ISP customers willing to pay handsomely for hosting.
What's interesting here is that it takes many, many $9.95/mo accounts (your typical cut-rate hosting charge) to equal one $1000/mo bullet-proof spammer hosting account.
How about citing something relevant? Show us a link to an article about credit card abuse (or illicit billing practices) at Hurricane Electric. Until you can find one, you're just spewing SPAM.
| Your phrases like "I seriously doubt you know", "Despite your phrases like" | and "you don't seem to know much about" smack of intelluctual elitism. | I feel sorry for you, little man. Not everything has to be a battle.
"people are not interested in hiring 30+ or 40+ programmers."
I beg to differ... if you specialize in one or more particular fields (ie: online payment processing), then the more experience you have (in years), the more valuable you are.
Just make sure you specialize in something that's going to be around for a long while.
| First of all, I never said that Mitnick never broke into a VAX. | I said he never broke into a VMS system (some VAXen run Unix).
Likewise, when I said "Mitnick broke into many VAX/VMS systems" (the second sentence in my first paragraph), I qualified it. Unfortunately, I was ambiguous later when I said "broke into a VAX".
Mitnick did indeed break into VAX/VMS systems, using flaws discovered by the CCC (Chaos Computer Club) as well as by intercepting PGP email communications between Neill Clift (of Leed's University) and Digital.
Neill Clift, who had access to the VMS source microfiche, would spend a lot of his free time combing through it discovering vulnerabilities. He would then report these vulnerabilities to his engineering contact at Digital. Unbeknownst to him at the time, DEC's mail relay machine was compromised (a VMS system) as well as Neill's home workstation. As a result, his public/private key was compromised. Through a "man in the middle" attack, Mitnick would decrypt and read Neill's bugs, then re-PGP them (using a new key-set he had negotiated with Digital as a result of pretending to be Neill Clift) and forward to Digital.
As for the CCC, Mitnick installed the "show user 0TTO/1TTO/2TTO" bug in many VAX/VMS systems, so that he could remain invisible while on as well as bypass the "pre-login" password required of dial-ups. He also tricked dial-back systems (where the modem calls you back at a pre-set phone number) by adding call-forwarding to the home phone of authorized modem users, thus intercepting the call-backs.
Through the availability of source code, technical support (yes, we had access to DEC technical services - all it took was an entry in their database of support customers) and systems, we were able to study several more weaknesses and eventually code a LAT exploit which, to-date, remains unpublished.
Prior to all this, by the way, Mitnick was breaking into RSTS/E systems with impunity. If you had dial-up access, there was basically no way to stop him... no social engineering required! That really irritated me, because I lived an hour away from work and emergency dial-up was not an option.
I actually still have LA120 printouts of some of these exploits... and answering machine tapes of mitnick leaving me messages about the latest systems he was able to compromise. In the early days, he'd even steal other peoples' RSTS/E cracking programs... Like Dave Kompel's tangled syscalls to spin the kernel into giving you system privilege. I think I still have a copy of that in storage somewhere.
By the way, all this is just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg." There are a lot of other things from Mitnick on those answering machine tapes that never made it beyond me... some of his other "hobbies" involved the DEA, the MDC (Metropolitan Detention Center), Magic Mountain's debit card terminals, and oh... the issuing of "patches" to select VAX/VMS customers on upgrade support contracts. The patches were delivered in the geniune DEC patches box, on the correct media for those particular customers. Needless to say, all those customers had dial-up (or network) access available.
None of that even covers the period of time when Lenny DiCicco worked at (what was once) PacTel Cellular as their database administrator (in Orange County, CA). Once Mitnick found out, hundreds of thousands of ESN's, MIN's and the associated customer names, billing info and social security numbers were compromised. Since we had the assembler code (complete with comments) to the Novatel PTR-825 as well as the compiler, Mitnick was able to remain "invisible" and "untraceable" for years until he pissed off Tsutomu Shimomura. After all, he had an endless supply of ESN/MIN combos, and could enter them into the PTR-825 directly thanks to some custom firmware hacks.
Perhaps I should write a book on what really took place "on the inside" complete with printouts and WAV files. Maybe in another five years, after I retire, I might.
You're absolutely wrong, glenmark. Mitnick broke into many VAX/VMS systems. One of them happened to be "the Arc" -- DEC's development machine. In addition, he broke into the VAXes at Leed's University (just ask Neill Clift) and at USC. He also broke into the personal workstation (a VAX) at Neill Clift's home, where he nabbed the bug reports before they got to Digital. Not to mention his penetration of VPA (Volunteer Plan Administrators) in Calabasas, where Lenny DiCicco lead the FBI in a sting operation, leading to Mitnick's apprehension in VPA's parking lot.
Espousing hearsay as fact only tends to poison the world with ignorance. There's enough ignorance in this world, as it stands.
So, I'm curious -- upon what factual basis do you conclude that "Mitnick never broke into a VAX?" I base my statement that he did upon the fact that, as his co-defendant, I saw the evidence as well as experienced some of it first-hand. You're not one of those people who just repeats hearsay as if it were fact, are you?
What do you use for the "console" device?
I always had a hardcopy device on
the console port... usually an LA120 DecWriter.
All our multi-location warehousing apps
were written in DIBOL, by yours truly.
The company expanded to the point where
it was a viable take-over candidate,
and the merger put us all on an AS/400.
I left almost 10 years ago, but oh, how
I long for the old days of VMS (and the
wonderful RMS file system).
I'd love to develop apps for an OpenVMS shop, but alas, I'm probably too old
and crusty for them at this stage. Too set in my ways, you know, when it comes
to writing code that never breaks. My philosophy and methodology does not fit
in with today's "crank it out and fix it later" mentality.
Three hundred users? What now seems like a century ago, we had 120 users on a microvax 4100, all using VT220's and connected via emulex terminal servers (running LAT, of course). The Centronics band printers (P300 and P600) were also connected to the Emulex terminal servers, since each came with a Centronics parallel port.
Those were the fun days... where you made the most of the hardware you had, and got the most out of the software you wrote.
You've obviously never had Kevin Mitnick on your OpenVMS system... or attracted the attention
of the Chaos Computer Club (CCC), whose members at one point (in the old days) targeted
VAX/VMS systems. Nor have you had Neill Clift go through the OpenVMS source code and
discover "bugs".
Don't take it for granted -- just because the O/S is (for all intents and purposes) obscure
now doesn't mean its "secure" now.
|...the poor APC UPS batteries weren't able to hold up the 150 servers I run. | | When the power came back on, we had 143 servers back on-line in ten minutes. | We had 149 on line in fifteen minutes. We had two servers (leased dedicateds) | that requires some file system repairs before they would come back on-line, but | that task was finished 30 minutes after power restoration. | | What's so hard about that?
What's so hard about that? Well... not everyone who has 150 servers can get 151 of them back online in 30 minutes.
That's where we differ... I don't consider the change log to be source code, any more than I'd consider the man page (or other documentation) to be source code.
Last I checked, neither the change log nor man pages were executable (or interpretable, or tokenizable).
... and I notice you conveniently forgot to mention that you cannot make BUSINESS calls over ham radio, nor talk about anything that might be even remotely construed to be a business matter.
Amateur radio is a hobby... for making hobby-type (aka "novelty") phone calls. Don't confuse it for a viable alternative to long distance.
Just because there's been a code split doesn't mean you don't agree on other fundamental design choices. As such, and considering that this is a GPL'd project, good pieces of code (and ideas embodied therein) should be shared.
At the same time, I'm not so hot on the fact that you took code fragments (or perhaps the ideas embodied therein), possibly expanded on them, and didn't give credit where credit was due.
Share the code... take the code... and notate where it came from in your source.
What Windows applications don't work with Windows?
Well, for starters, Outlook 2000 doesn't work with Windows 2000. It freezes and/or crashes at times, and needs to be restarted. Another would be Windows Media Player, which if not rebooted weekly, runs out of resources, gets confused, and starts to spew out "The procedure entry point ASFSendTimeToTime could not be located in the dynamic link library WMASF.DLL.
On another note, Word 2000 has several glaring errors involving phantom font changes, where if you override the default font for part of your document and then start using indents (bullets, etc)... and then go to the end of a bulleted line and delete a character, then move your focus and then come back to that line and hit enter, your selected font disappears and is replaced by the default document font again. Lots of quirks, not to mention crashes if the application is used for more than a week without reboot.
Anyway, I've given you concise examples of BROKEN software... without even pointing you to Microsoft's knowledge base, where literally hundreds of items are marked as "known problems" with no fix planned for them.
By any other term, this constitutes BROKEN software that does not run correctly on its intended operating system... not to mention that said operating system has problems of its own.
So, before accusing others of trolling, I suggest you do a little research on your own. Google is a wonderful tool. Reboot your system (so that it has a chance of not crashing) and try Googling for more info next time, before accusing.
"The code is the comments."
Yes -- that's why, if you can, you should write all your comments in C++.
Then, using that reasoning, why not have a game that lets you "rise through the ranks" depending on how
skillfully you plot against your fellow comrades, until you become a dictator. Once a dictator, the object
of the game shifts and you are scored based on how many rights you can violate prior to being caught or
prosecuted. Among these challenges are the interrment of certain races based solely on their religious views,
the segregation of certain races based on their national origin (assuming your country is attacked) and the
killing of innocent children and other civilians who get in your way (as long as they're on foreign soil).
Is a game that mimes historical events and standard American policy too boring for your average audience?
It would certainly be much more violent than the current set of video games on trial today. Yet WalMart might
be able to sell them without fear of litigation, under the guise of "historical re-enactments."
Now, seriously stop to think about this... if the games targetted a particular ethnic or religious group (instead
of hookers), they would be driven out of business by censorship [yes... it exists in greater abundance than
our civil liberties do] and the ensuing commotion caused by the various niche organizations that oversee
their special-interest group's rights, be it the NAACP, MAHF, JDL, etc...
The point to all this? Somewhere along the line, we [or, more precisely, our government] started dictating
who we could and counldn't hate [meaning, special interests] rathern than sending the message that hate in
general is bad. And therein lies the problem... we create special exceptions and exemptions rather than
addressing the real issue and fixing the problem.
These days, doing the truly right thing is politically incorrect, and will not be tolerated. The facts be damned.
This is nothing new... our company has been a defendant in "wrongful death" lawsuites twice now.
In Joe James, et al. v. Meow Media, Inc., et al. (aka the Paducah, KY school shootings),
the defendants claimed that their son visited Persian Kitty's Adult Links
[Note: Adult Content], where they viewed violent pornography which caused them to
shoot fellow high school students.
Here's an interesting summary by morelaw on the case.
Here's an interesting piece by PBS on this new fad.
As this national fad spread, we were then sued by the defendants in what's popularly known
as the Columbine High School Shootings. Again, we had to defend ourselves... in parallel. Two
lawsuits, in two different states... and the unsuccessful [by plaintiffs] appeals that followed.
Here's aa PDF of the Columbine case for those who are interested.
Fortunately, we were able to use the ruling (after plaintiffs had exhausted all appeals) in the
first case to get the second case dismissed, late in the game. By then, we had already paid out
six figures in legal fees alone. Good thing we're in the "online adult entertainment" business,
or else we might have been put out of business.
To those who say "so... sue them back!" -- I strongly recommend you learn more about our
legal system (through accredited sources, not word of mouth). I can see the newspaper headlines
now... "Family may lose home because of Pornographer's lawsuit, after having recently
lost their son."
YMMV.
Watch what you say... or I'll report you to my invisible friend, thus sealing your fate. Repent now, and my invisible friend will forgive you.
|
| I sincerely doubt some "ceramic nanomaterial" is suitable for absorbing magnetic fields.
Actually, beware of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Popular Science reported (and duplicated) the finding that ceramic heating elements,
when heated red-hot, could be cooled (at least to the point of not glowing red) by a
strong magnetic field. I've always found this to be fascinating. The article must
have appeared 25 years ago or so.
|
| The problem is downloaders wouldn't ordinarily buy it.
That's not a problem. Preventing downloaders from downloading copyright material/music
which they would otherwise not purchase is not unreasonable. Just because you would never
buy an item doesn't grant you license to steal it.
How poorly thought out. If you stop to think about it, spammers are the ones
who will pay dearly (eg: $1000/mo+) for "bullet proof" hosting. Advertise the
fact that a certain ISP is spammer-friendly, and you're effectively bringing that
ISP customers willing to pay handsomely for hosting.
What's interesting here is that it takes many, many $9.95/mo accounts (your
typical cut-rate hosting charge) to equal one $1000/mo bullet-proof spammer
hosting account.
Haven't you heard? Ever since COGENT entered the market, excess bandwidth is free.
How about citing something relevant? Show us a link to an article about
credit card abuse (or illicit billing practices) at Hurricane Electric. Until
you can find one, you're just spewing SPAM.
| Your phrases like "I seriously doubt you know", "Despite your phrases like"
| and "you don't seem to know much about" smack of intelluctual elitism.
| I feel sorry for you, little man. Not everything has to be a battle.
Pot... kettle... nigritude.
Extra-income hint: Webcam work.
She'll know what I mean.
"people are not interested in hiring 30+ or 40+ programmers."
I beg to differ... if you specialize in one or more particular fields (ie: online payment processing), then the more experience you have (in years), the more valuable you are.
Just make sure you specialize in something that's going to be around for a long while.
Hey... it's all part of groin up, right?
| First of all, I never said that Mitnick never broke into a VAX.
| I said he never broke into a VMS system (some VAXen run Unix).
Likewise, when I said "Mitnick broke into many VAX/VMS systems" (the
second sentence in my first paragraph), I qualified it. Unfortunately,
I was ambiguous later when I said "broke into a VAX".
Mitnick did indeed break into VAX/VMS systems, using flaws discovered
by the CCC (Chaos Computer Club) as well as by intercepting PGP email
communications between Neill Clift (of Leed's University) and Digital.
Neill Clift, who had access to the VMS source microfiche, would spend
a lot of his free time combing through it discovering vulnerabilities.
He would then report these vulnerabilities to his engineering contact
at Digital. Unbeknownst to him at the time, DEC's mail relay machine
was compromised (a VMS system) as well as Neill's home workstation.
As a result, his public/private key was compromised. Through a "man
in the middle" attack, Mitnick would decrypt and read Neill's bugs,
then re-PGP them (using a new key-set he had negotiated with Digital
as a result of pretending to be Neill Clift) and forward to Digital.
As for the CCC, Mitnick installed the "show user 0TTO/1TTO/2TTO" bug
in many VAX/VMS systems, so that he could remain invisible while on
as well as bypass the "pre-login" password required of dial-ups. He
also tricked dial-back systems (where the modem calls you back at a
pre-set phone number) by adding call-forwarding to the home phone of
authorized modem users, thus intercepting the call-backs.
Through the availability of source code, technical support (yes, we
had access to DEC technical services - all it took was an entry in
their database of support customers) and systems, we were able to
study several more weaknesses and eventually code a LAT exploit
which, to-date, remains unpublished.
Prior to all this, by the way, Mitnick was breaking into RSTS/E systems
with impunity. If you had dial-up access, there was basically no way
to stop him... no social engineering required! That really irritated
me, because I lived an hour away from work and emergency dial-up was
not an option.
I actually still have LA120 printouts of some of these exploits... and
answering machine tapes of mitnick leaving me messages about the latest
systems he was able to compromise. In the early days, he'd even steal
other peoples' RSTS/E cracking programs... Like Dave Kompel's tangled
syscalls to spin the kernel into giving you system privilege. I think
I still have a copy of that in storage somewhere.
By the way, all this is just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg."
There are a lot of other things from Mitnick on those answering
machine tapes that never made it beyond me... some of his other
"hobbies" involved the DEA, the MDC (Metropolitan Detention Center),
Magic Mountain's debit card terminals, and oh... the issuing of
"patches" to select VAX/VMS customers on upgrade support contracts.
The patches were delivered in the geniune DEC patches box, on the
correct media for those particular customers. Needless to say,
all those customers had dial-up (or network) access available.
None of that even covers the period of time when Lenny DiCicco worked
at (what was once) PacTel Cellular as their database administrator (in
Orange County, CA). Once Mitnick found out, hundreds of thousands of
ESN's, MIN's and the associated customer names, billing info and social
security numbers were compromised. Since we had the assembler code
(complete with comments) to the Novatel PTR-825 as well as the compiler,
Mitnick was able to remain "invisible" and "untraceable" for years until
he pissed off Tsutomu Shimomura. After all, he had an endless supply
of ESN/MIN combos, and could enter them into the PTR-825 directly
thanks to some custom firmware hacks.
Perhaps I should write a book on what really took place "on the inside"
complete with printouts and WAV files. Maybe in another five years,
after I retire, I might.
|
| Mitnick never broke into a VMS system.
You're absolutely wrong, glenmark. Mitnick broke into many VAX/VMS systems. One of
them happened to be "the Arc" -- DEC's development machine. In addition, he broke into the
VAXes at Leed's University (just ask Neill Clift) and at USC. He also broke into the personal
workstation (a VAX) at Neill Clift's home, where he nabbed the bug reports before they got
to Digital. Not to mention his penetration of VPA (Volunteer Plan Administrators) in Calabasas,
where Lenny DiCicco lead the FBI in a sting operation, leading to Mitnick's apprehension
in VPA's parking lot.
Espousing hearsay as fact only tends to poison the world with ignorance. There's enough
ignorance in this world, as it stands.
So, I'm curious -- upon what factual basis do you conclude that "Mitnick never broke
into a VAX?" I base my statement that he did upon the fact that, as his co-defendant,
I saw the evidence as well as experienced some of it first-hand. You're not one of
those people who just repeats hearsay as if it were fact, are you?
What do you use for the "console" device? I always had a hardcopy device on
the console port... usually an LA120 DecWriter.
All our multi-location warehousing apps were written in DIBOL, by yours truly.
The company expanded to the point where it was a viable take-over candidate,
and the merger put us all on an AS/400.
I left almost 10 years ago, but oh, how I long for the old days of VMS (and the
wonderful RMS file system).
I'd love to develop apps for an OpenVMS shop, but alas, I'm probably too old
and crusty for them at this stage. Too set in my ways, you know, when it comes
to writing code that never breaks. My philosophy and methodology does not fit
in with today's "crank it out and fix it later" mentality.
Three hundred users? What now seems like a century ago, we had 120 users on a microvax 4100, all using VT220's and connected via emulex terminal servers (running LAT, of course). The Centronics band printers (P300 and P600) were also connected to the Emulex terminal servers, since each came with a Centronics parallel port.
Those were the fun days... where you made the most of the hardware you had, and got the most out of the software you wrote.
Alas, if only Ken Olsen were 20 years younger...
Covert channel problems in the lock manager?
Sounds like what the RA80 (and RA81) disk suffered from!
You've obviously never had Kevin Mitnick on your OpenVMS system... or attracted the attention
of the Chaos Computer Club (CCC), whose members at one point (in the old days) targeted
VAX/VMS systems. Nor have you had Neill Clift go through the OpenVMS source code and
discover "bugs".
Don't take it for granted -- just because the O/S is (for all intents and purposes) obscure
now doesn't mean its "secure" now.
| ...the poor APC UPS batteries weren't able to hold up the 150 servers I run.
|
| When the power came back on, we had 143 servers back on-line in ten minutes.
| We had 149 on line in fifteen minutes. We had two servers (leased dedicateds)
| that requires some file system repairs before they would come back on-line, but
| that task was finished 30 minutes after power restoration.
|
| What's so hard about that?
What's so hard about that? Well... not everyone who has 150 servers can get 151 of them back online in 30 minutes.
That's where we differ... I don't consider the change log to be source code,
any more than I'd consider the man page (or other documentation) to be
source code.
Last I checked, neither the change log nor man pages were executable
(or interpretable, or tokenizable).
However, YMMV. VWPBL.
... and I notice you conveniently forgot to mention that you cannot make BUSINESS calls over ham radio, nor talk about anything that might be even remotely construed to be a business matter.
Amateur radio is a hobby... for making hobby-type (aka "novelty") phone calls. Don't confuse it for a viable alternative to long distance.
73's
W1AW
I did read it, DaCool42... did you not read the full context of my comment?
... and give credit in the source code.
Hope that helps. YMMV. VWP.
Just because there's been a code split doesn't mean you don't agree on other fundamental design choices. As such, and considering that this is a GPL'd project, good pieces of code (and ideas embodied therein) should be shared.
At the same time, I'm not so hot on the fact that you took code fragments (or perhaps the ideas embodied therein), possibly expanded on them, and didn't give credit where credit was due.
Share the code... take the code... and notate where it came from in your source.
What Windows applications don't work with Windows?
Well, for starters, Outlook 2000 doesn't work with Windows 2000. It freezes and/or crashes at times, and needs to be restarted. Another would be Windows Media Player, which if not rebooted weekly, runs out of resources, gets confused, and starts to spew out "The procedure entry point ASFSendTimeToTime could not be located in the dynamic link library WMASF.DLL.
On another note, Word 2000 has several glaring errors involving phantom font changes, where if you override the default font for part of your document and then start using indents (bullets, etc)... and then go to the end of a bulleted line and delete a character, then move your focus and then come back to that line and hit enter, your selected font disappears and is replaced by the default document font again. Lots of quirks, not to mention crashes if the application is used for more than a week without reboot.
Anyway, I've given you concise examples of BROKEN software... without even pointing you to Microsoft's knowledge base, where literally hundreds of items are marked as "known problems" with no fix planned for them.
By any other term, this constitutes BROKEN software that does not run correctly on its intended operating system... not to mention that said operating system has problems of its own.
So, before accusing others of trolling, I suggest you do a little research on your own. Google is a wonderful tool. Reboot your system (so that it has a chance of not crashing) and try Googling for more info next time, before accusing.