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Programming Until Retirement?
DataDragon asks: "Here's the situation- I'm a now 30something computer programmer in Silicon Valley working for one of the local billion+ dollar tech companies. I'm unhappy with my present job, but am thankful that I've got one. Although I pride myself on having written over a million lines of code in my career, with nearly 15 commercial software products under my belt (8 of them were my own concepts from start-to-finish). I've had carpal tunnel for 6 years now, my skillset looks like it came from a 3 year old magazine, and I didn't make good on stock options. Since settling down in a quiet place somewhere and having a family sounds like a great idea to myself and my bride-to-be, I was wondering: instead of all the buzz I always get like Google's 'Do you <insert technology task> in your sleep?' job opportunities I've read about, are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?"
You have now outlasted your usefulness to the state. Please report to your nearest execution chamber.
Switch to dvorak!
Being a programmer, you probably want one of the layouts tweaked for programming (that put braces and stuff in easy locations).
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
We've got a runner!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
no.
...Just gotta move to India
Get your carpal tunnel treated!
You really don't want to damage your wrists. if you are a programmer.
All of the software shops I've worked at or been involved with NEED a person in the role you seek, but none of them wants to pay the salary requisite to get a skilled veteran.
I wish you luck.
Start your own company. Be your own boss, be someone else's boss. By the time your ulcer matures your company might be successful, or your carple tunnel might have cleared up.
My company writes a specific software app for the banking industry. There isn't a single programmer under 30, few (other than the boss) works more than 45 hours a week, and most have been there 5 years or more.
It's not all that interesting, but it's a decent job. Just don't expect the megabucks.
jred
I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
Have you considered starting your own company? Since you seem to be capable and understand that a good employee is vital to a company's overall success beyond each quarter, maybe you could do well if you did things yourself. You also may have a nest egg if you chose to sell the company as you retire.
I think more people should consider starting their own company since small businesses have always been a staple of the American economy.
That's just my 2 cents, so take it with a grain of sand I guess.
If you like programming, keep doing it as long as you can. If you don't like programming, stop immediately and do something you like. This applies to any field. On your deathbed you are not going to be worried about stock options, you are going to wonder if you wasted your life or not.
Although I pride myself on having written over a million lines of code in my career...
Good programmers often don't need a lot of lines. It is possible to have a lot of duplication rather than factor commonalities into libraries, etc., cranking up your line count. I am not saying that you in particular have done this, but it is something to keep in mind. The trick is to write good lines, not lots of them.
Table-ized A.I.
As people grow wiser and more experienced inside a company, they tend to move upwards towards mentoring/management-like activities.
Probably because their experience with coding makes them more suitable for taking decisions regarding project lead and also more suitable for giving answers to questions (in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over again).
I've noticed that most companies do this - use their internal pool of experienced programmers in order to push them into mentoring/management positions, instead of throwing the management openings at the public and accepting CVs for it.
On one side, it's a good practice, because only those with previous experience inside the company will have access to those places, and by the time they get there they should know the process inside out. On the other hand, not throwing those positions towards the public makes them lose a full range of potential employees.
Go to some small businesses that have maybe less than 50 people or so and get them to be more productive by employing all kinds of tech(lease them a server, get some SMS going to their cell phones, smooth out their email, voicemail, etc). It has worked for me. You have to do a lot of different things besides programming, but that is OK. You get to know some people and if you are any good at all, they will love you. You won't make as much as at some billion dollar company and there is some on-callness to it, but you can live.
So look at sectors where your goals are the company goals.
Government defense contractors and Fortune 500 tech companies tend to be more interested in stability and predictability than in hot ever-changing developments.
I'm sure there are other sectors as well.
1. Sleep. 2 Insert technology task in sleep 3.Profit!
NO! They want a revolving door of 20-something code monkeys, a cadre of executive VPs, a ton of managers, and one or two lead designers that they'll encourage to quit long before they reach retirement age. Of course, that's just from my perspective at the last few places I've worked, YMMV.
VI macros saved my wrists.
Start your own business... If you need ideas, ask slashdot... By the way, I'm in the same boat, looking for project ideas that can make a little quick $$.
I would answer you but quite frankly I forgot what were you asking about before I finished reading your question... Could you please make your "Ask Slashdot" questions a little bit shorter next time? I'm sure that the value of your company and the number of lines of code you write in every month of carpal tunnel syndrome are very important but I have really no idea what the question was. And I've read it twice. Apparently not everyone is a data dragon, Mr. DataDragon. If the question was: "Should I retire?" then my answer is: Yes, definitely.
Larger companies generally have more process and more overhead, but they also have more people who are in it for the long haul, and thus aren't working overtime every day.
There's always periods where you need to put in time, but in a small company those are the norm; in a big company (I'm talking 10k or more people here) it's more normal to work something close to a regular work day.
Think IBM, government, HP, Kodak..
--
http://www.stevex.org/longtail
You can tell a good programmer by how many lines of code he didn't write?
You might consider looking for a job at a college or University - the smaller ones in the suburbs often offer a very nice family atmosphere and stable job. I think you would be surprised how far your experience would go in a situation like that; they need people who have skills and who can also communicate well with non-techies - i.e., students and the people who deal with the students. If you have database and/or PHP/ASP skills, you could try to join a web-development team for an academic institution; if not, you could learn them or find another software/technology-based position to apply for at one. I highly recommend it, though - if not for the atmosphere and stability, but also for the free courses. Many institutions allow employees to take courses for free, something that's definitely worth looking into if you're interested in learning. Good luck!
http://www.tenjou.net/
Any more good news you want from us?
In short, your looking for work and you thought
Well that's okay, good luck to you.
By the way, I'm very self-motivated, a genius in C++ and Python and I could probably squeeze the odd small or non-urgent project in....
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
You are in treason against the state for revealing ultra-violet information to infra-red classified citizens. Please report to the nearest execution chamber.
(Too Obscure?)
It's impossible to find that honest open warmth where companies have employees whose primary task is the result of the company being large, i.e. a beauracracy.
Conversely, many smaller companies are not as capitalized as larger companies so the long-term propects may not be as bright. Then again, most of the people I know working at smaller companies have been there longer than many folks I know working at big companies.
You might want to consider starting your own company with others who share your vision.
-_-
Logistical offices that do things like accounting, customer service, tech support, call centers, etc are the ones that want someone that will put in an honest days work, be friendly, professional, etc. They'll probably rarely expect you to work long hours, and probably not expect any kind of creativity from you.
Programming jobs, however, are by their very nature, rushed. The company wants the product out the door as fast as it can, so it can start harvesting the rewards. The problem is, they don't want an honest day's work. They want you to work a month at 12 hour days and then either forget about you, or start the 'honest days work' thing while looking for a way to fire you for the next set of gung-ho youngsters willing to forego their lives for 'experience' and 'adequate compensation'
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I'm a 30something programmer myself. I have worked for several tech companies in NorCal (startups that went nowhere), and after an 8 month stint of being unemployed I landed a programming job (mostly Perl no less) at a local CSU. Now I'm happy, I get lots of "perks" (Conferences, Training, etc.), and nobody busts my nuts when I "only" work 8 hours a day. I have good benefits, a good retirement & job stability (unless Schwartznegger screws me), and I work with good people who appreciate my work.
That'll teach the geezers.
Grow an unkempt beard
Start chain smoking
Come in at 5:30am leave at 3:30pm
Where the same cheap pair of Dickies every day
Have a stack of filled out lottery tickets in top drawer
Die within 3 months after retirement
I've spent the past 7+ years working for a relatively small not-profit company and have had a great experience, as well as a lot of impact on the direction of technology in the company. This positive experience seems to be a thread through everyone in my department.
I'd definately recomend non-profit, or local government organizations as a good place for programmers to spend many years. You won't become a millionaire overnight, but it's good pay, good promotion, working with people you get to know for YEARS, reasonable hours, and probably much lower stress compared to private development houses.
Get a doctoral degree, find an academic institution that will fund your work, get tenure and then live out the rest of your life in peace and happiness, all the while contributing your knowledge and wisdom to the next generation of engineers.
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
I'm not sure if you're refering to your own desire to find a company that you can happily work for till retirement, or asking if there are companies like that out there.
.com era, but I'm sure if you look hard and study well, you'll find someone who'd be as happy to keep you around till a ripe old age (again, DO research any company you're going to sign on with, talk to people who work there, read up on them a ton) and let your program your ass off till retirement.
There are plenty of companies that'd love to have an employee with as much experience as you've mentioned, and in addition, someone with the desire to work for the long term. Projects from start to finish are one thing, but people aren't sticking around for the long haul like they did generations back.
With outsourcing and mega job opportunities still pumping stock options and elevated pay (check Monster, there ARE companies actively seeking engineers and programmers, offering hugh pay incentives) people are jumping ship when it suits them, even if there seems to be a dearth of jobs for those of us w/o them.
Company mentalities are different in this post
Like that advice for high school article if I could have told my self something 10 years ago it would be "don't get into computer jobs no matter how fun you think they are! Get a finance, accounting or management degree, screw CS!".
The IT industry sucks souls I don't care if it's programming or sys admining. It fucking blows.
There are companies like you mentioned out there. I have worked for a couple in my days as a Unix contractor. These are the places that programmers go to die. I actually couldn't take working at these sites for more than 6 months at a time. Everything was so slow paced that it made me crazy. On top of that, they seemed to be filled with the bottom of the barrel developers. Get this, our CIO's "big idea" was that our new software should hit the shelves as "widget 1.2" instead of "widget 1.0", even though there was no change in development life cycle. His point was that customers would "think" there were less bugs cause it was a higher rev. I had to leave...
The best place to find places like this are state goverment, healthcare, and universities. The problem is not going completely crazy before you retire. Make sure you read up on dilbert so you know what to expect from your pointy haired boss.
It's no coincidence that Cali spends among the lowest in the US per capita on education, and on adult education. With a constant influx of immigrants, and eager new college grads, why bother paying to nurture talent in-house when you can externalise the costs? Embedded in this milieu, the Silicon Valley companies have absorbed much of this culture: get em young, work em hard, get rid of them when they begin to get a clue, replace them with new recruits with the latest buzzy skills. Rinse and repeat.
Da Blog
Get a state or federal gov job. They don't merge or get bought out. They are much more secure than private sector tech jobs. Jobs at colleges can be that way too. But it depends some tech jobs at colleges can have there funding pulled out from under them. The programming most likely won't be exciting but your looking for stability more than cutting edge tech.
Companies today, especially the billion+ dollar ones (I work for one too), are only interested in making next quarters numbers for the stockholders. Mentoring implies they are going to continue to hire local engineers that you could mentor. What I see happening is companies are only hiring interns locally for grunt work while laying off the rest, while all but the most senior hires are in India and China, with the trend moving to China (why pay $20k for an engineer when you can pay $5k?) The job responsibilities of those remaining senior jobs can best be summarized as "make the crap we get back from India and China work." Your honest days work consists of "integrating" the outsourced work - read "debug and rewrite". Your mentoring will mostly consist of being available at 7am and 7pm 5+ nights a week for your daily phone conferences with the outsourced teams, mostly reexplaining the specifications you sent, and pointing out the hundreds of ways their last deliverable failed to met even the most basic entrance criteria. In the meantime, you and the remaining interns will talk about how they should just hire a few more locals and let you finish the project yourself.
This is the new economy, and how high-tech works for the foreseeable future - everyone I know that still has a job is being reamed by their employer, including the ones on the "best companies to work for" lists. If you want something honest, start your own company and do it right.
This life lesson is from my wife. She was married and divorced before we met. One of the things she noticed was that all of her relationships headed the same way - to disaster. So she consciously changed the way she dated. She forced herself to look for a different type of man, to look in different places for dates. We've been married well over a decade.
It sounds like you need to force yourself to look for a different type of employer. To look in different places for work.
the pay isnt great, but the benefits rock, and they are usually VERY VERY stable jobs. No need to worry about being outsourced to india.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
I'm a current employee of Nielsen Media Research (the evil US TV ratings company), which is far more day-to-day IT than anything else I've seen in the market. In my experience it's rather unique. I've seen a LOT of consultant-types go full-time here to settle down.
If you won't mind relocating to Florida, give it a look (www.nielsenmedia.com). Let them know the trenchcoat guy in National IT sent you.
I'm not really sure what you meant by the last run-on-sentence, but I'll give you some advice. If you have carpal tunnel you can't be a good programmer, so you will have to plan an exit strategy from your current occupation. You can shift into management or systems design capacity, where the need to code is replaced with the need to plan and execute. The most secure way to successfully make this move, is to move up in the company you are in, and failing that you'll have to find a way to get into a management position somewhere else, or start your own business.
:-)
I'm not sure if it's wise or not, but maybe you could get a doctor's note and take it to your boss. Explain to them that you have a lot of experience and that due to your carpal tunnel you must become less of a programmer and more of a designer and manager. Obviously you run the risk of losing your job if you go this route, so get all your ducks in a row if that happens -- because you could likely win a wrongful dismissal suit if they fired you for health reasons. IANAL, so talk to one before you decide to go this route.
If you want to start slow, begin by taking assignments that are management related or assignments that can prove your leadership potential. Rack these assignments up and get letters from your boss that show what you have been doing for them. Get it in writing. You can start by suggesting a new policy that will provide more employee feedback. This will create a paper trail that can work for you.
Eventually you will have a stack of papers proving your worth. Then you can either take this stack to management, or you can take it to another company.
I might also add that if you start your own business, it's obviously tough but you are at the right age to do it -- if you're ever going to.
The nice thing about being in business for yourself is that you don't have to do anything you don't want to -- you can simply delegate. But if you fail in business at your age, it's very difficult to start again.
Weigh your options and make a decision. No matter what slashdotters say, it's more important that you accept responsibility for your career direction. You've voiced that you are not satisfied with your current role, so it's likely time for a change. Maybe you could retrain? Maybe you can switch capacity due to health reasons (with a doctor's note), or maybe you are SOL. This all depends on your organization's ability to retain human capitol, and if you have become unsatisfied and they are clueless about it, maybe you should start looking for work elsewhere. The choice is yours, but you should really set down an exit strategy from your current role and play Devil's Advocate with each option.
Typing does not require accurate position of the fingers - so long as you hit the "a" key, it doesn't much matter how you hit it.. Over time the brain doesnt bother to take care over which nerves are activated/sensed, because it appears not to matter. Unfortunately, it does!
The consequence of this careless activation of "roughly the right nerves" is what is called Carpal Tunnel.
The cure is to relearn accurate use of the nerves. One of the best ways of doing this has been found to be to learn hand embroidery! Old fashoned watchmaking (or repairling iPods/mobile phones) would probably work too. Most exercise or sports, which require force but little accuracy, will make matters rapidly worse.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Haven't found anything like that in Silicon Valley. In the 1980's and earlier, computer programming used to be that kind of job. But the dot.com era changed the field and deathmarches are now common rather than a sign of poor project management or cluess PHBs. Most of the jobs I've seen here are developing software that will eventually be a project. I ended up becoming a Sysadmin and eventually leaving IT altogether.
If you're having health problems due to typing, I'd look at changing your lifestyle--either how you work (ergonomics) or what you do. All that typing is a form of exercise and eventually athletes and dancers have to retire and "do something else". That's up to you to decide.
You seem to be the exact kind of guy they like. Tons of experience, willing to work in a team. Now add "passion for technology" to this, and good coding skills (which I'm sure you have) and you'll get hired. If you're lucky, you'll even get an interesting job. You won't get rich on stock options , though, because there aren't any.
I used to think ... working on a product is a great joy, compared to bits and pieces you had been asked to. But you are saying...
"with nearly 15 commercial software products under my belt (8 of them were my own concepts from start-to-finish)"
Even after developing(living?) those 8 products, you are still on a confusion, which is similar to me??
I have to reconsider my confusion now!
Start a small company. This company will buy product in bulk and sell it to individual consumers.
I would suggest crack as your first product.
I remember talking to an older engineer back in 2001 (when tech was crumbling and people were losing jobs) at the giant tech company I was working at. His advice was that these cycles are normal (I think he said he had been through 3 or 4? like the most recent, he was pushing 60) and if you want to remain in the tech industry you need to get used to basically relearning and retooling and regular layoffs. So unless you want to learn a new skill or language every 5 years or don't like dealing with industry ebb and flow then maybe you should look at going back and getting and MBA, there is always room for more managment ;)
The real question is why a 3 year old skillset is considered obsolete. In any other industry, a 30 year old skillset is still enough to get by on.
The IT industry needs to stop embracing every fad programming language and marketing gimmick, and start working for the long term.
You betcha. ...).
Just find yourself a small tech company in it's own little niche run by engineers/programmers.
As long as you don't mind creating and maintaining systems and code that revolve around the particular vertical niche.
You'll find that your work is more appreciated and more important to the bottom line, you'll work harder than you have anywhere else, and you'll get opportunities to perform in roles other than just coder (like tech support, sales engineering, on site customer visits,
Yeah, I think the key is not to work for a software development company. Rather, work for a company that needs a software developer. There's lots of development jobs to be had in companies whose primary products may not directly have anything to do with software. That's where you'll find your job security -- and I'm not necessarily talking about IT.
I work at a small company that develops specialized computer chassis, motherboards, and a few peripherals. Those peripherals often need embedded code development and device drivers, which I develop. However, selling hardware is the focus of our company, not selling software. Software development makes up less than 2% of the company.
Stupider like a fox! - H.S.
Find companies whose main industry is not the tech industry which:
- show up in the top 100 or top 500 employers lists
- use technology to *run* their business processes
Then apply. Those companies always have a need for good programmers.
Recall in the Cathedral and the Bazaar, the part people mostly forget about, the fact that most programming is not done by software vendors but by companies that buy software and need to customize it. Some are developing their own full-blown software than implements *their* business processes, others are taking COTS software (ERP, say) and extending it.
A lot of people forget about the "footprint" of COTS products on the surface of business processes. COTS products rarely cover all the needs of a business and so the business either needs to have custom applications written (by contract or in-house) and connected to COTS software, or, for some good COTS software that has user-exits, an API, and user-defined code, the extract funcionality is added in to the extensible COTS implementation.
Anyway, you get to work in an industry that isn't the high-tech industry, work with business people that aren't in that business, and learn business processes that aren't about building technology.
Cheers...
B
"By the way, I'm very self-motivated, a genius in C++ and Python"
-1 Arrogant.
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They tend to value longer term thinking and relationships over flash-in-the-pan stuff... The downside, is they are likely still running VAX or something :-)
It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
You must read and have the spare machine to play with. You must at least browse Dr. Dobbs.
This is why my resume is upto date after 22 years.
Now that the y2k issues are dea and gone, Cobol programmers now most commonly say, "So that was a Non fat decaf latte....?"
Can't turn into the guy that in 1993 walked out of a presentation I gave on Visual Basic because he did not know what a mouse was. This is a true story.
I'm a 35 years old and have been programming since I was 12* I've had hand pain for a couple of years which I can treat and manage with a combination of massage and wrist braces which I wear at night. These wrist braces never cause a problem in terms of having a comfortable night's sleep for me (or my wife!) Fact is, I tried to be a manager for two years, which was OK, but nothing as wonderful as being a programmer. Switching back was difficult because my best skill at that point was Perl (no offense to Perl programmers) and I had to re-learn OO. So I dropped C++ and learned Java, and from there, made a significant effort to learn the nuances. The Sun Certification Exams don't *really* give you much in terms of a strong resume, but reengaging my mind in more recent technologies was worth it. Even if I was not going to get the job I wanted, I was learning enough that I could make contributions my writing my own software, or contributing to open source projects.
:)
Epilogue: I got picked up by one of the fast-moving companies everyone is watching. There are plenty of people there who are younger and wealthier than me. So what? I have a good job and I'm very happy to go to work every day. Will I be able to do this in twenty to thirty years? I sure think it's more likely than I did six months ago.
And yes, count your blessings.
*I really ought to say that I've been programming for 23 years, just to irritate some of the little kiddies.
Why not be your own firm? Or start one? Find the location where you'd most like to live. Your choice is bound to be similar to other intelligent people such as yourself, who will be showing up in the next few years if they aren't a major factor there already. If there are several choices otherwise equal, take the most affordable place to live. That will be the one attracting more of the "creative economy" types, and so have the greater long-term upward potential. Buy a house. Settle in an make social connections, do some minor volunteer work, follow local politics.
Blue sky. Prototype some software concepts. Figure out who has money to invest in the area if you need that, demo, raise the funds. Recruit office staff locally when you need it, collaborating programmers over the Net when you need them.
As you know, it's not like all the brilliant software has already been invented.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
... or do you? If you really want to mentor and relieve yourself of physical pain, becoming an instructor sounds like the right thing to do. If you've been in a cubicle most of your work life, it will affect your perception of others (not being appreciated, etc.). Imagine how caged animals feel. Now if you want to keep on coding, dress up your cubicle to positively affect your mental well being. Get up from your cube and walk around once in awhile. Instead of looking at the ground, smile and converse with fellow employees ... they are not such bad people when you get involved with them. Life is more than nine to five. Perhaps mangement of software development is better suited to you (mentor). Community charity (big brother) programs can get you involved with young kids who may want to learn programming (may even cut down on script kiddies). Best wishes on your decision.
Google offers the following definitions of FFS: Fee-for-Service, Flash File System, Federal Supply Schedule, Front des forces socialistes. None of those make sense in context, so would you mind elaborating?
Check out mercury.com, and look for Mercury Managed Services. There ain't much programming per se, pay is not outrageous, weekend and evening shift is possible, but it's stable, we're going places, and we need competent people, but can't seem to find them. Apply now, we're desperate. :)
In general though, you have only a few options: start your own company, or look for a large, stable company where people understand that 40 hours done at full speed is far more productive than 80 hours at stressed-out speed. Guv'ment work is one of those places.
This is your employer. We have traced your IP and your services are no longer needed. We have also told every other programming corporation about your treason. Enjoy your new life at the Wall-Mart prescription counter.
Yes, there are jobs out there for you... they're called management. Wherein you used to be something great, but now your information is old, obsolete, and you cannot comprehend the new fandangled thingamabobs and whatzits. You'll spend countless hours in meetings looking authoritative, but deep down inside you're just thinking about last night's dinner. Sorry dude, but the average IT programmer employment lifespan is less than 5 years... less if it can now be outsourced.
I work in the IT department for a utility company in the midwest. The people are friendly and things are generally low-stress. Most people still work here for life. The flip side is that we rarely use leading-edge technology, projects can progress very slowly, and some people are dead weight.
1. Wife.
2. Kids.
I would suggest to keep your organs healthy, because you're going to have hope they payoff big-time for that college education you'll be on the hook for. Also hope you have 2 livers.
You don't mention any desire (or ambition) to move into the management echelons, but IMHO you might be well-served to consider making the leap. Many companies would be well served to have a skilled programming manager (CTO??) who has been under the hood of so many successful software titles. Having someone like yourself who can take a programmer's time estimates for a given project, realize they're milking it, and call them out on it AND who likewise can also take management's time estimates, realize management's on crack, and call them out for it would be a find.
Good luck!
Running 'Nix is like owning a Lightsaber. It's "a more elegant weapon for a more civilized time."
Sounds like you want to be a boss now.
My now ex-girlfriend's Dad used to work for IBM and got carpal tunnel.
He got out of the tech industry completely, bought property and became a landlord. Last I heard, he does renovations and fixes stuff and has plenty of time for other things. While this doesn't sound like the right path for you, I wanted to offer proof of the possibility of a career change for some of your aforementioned reasons.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
I work for one... Workforce software (http://www.workforcesoftware.com). They make time and attendance software for large companies (1000+). They expect people to work hard and know how to program (99% of the people who apply can't write code), but they treat their employees well and value loyal people.
On a sidenote, you could try therapeutic massage. That and a split keyboard eliminated my tendonitis (I thought it was carpal tunnel).
-=Lothsahn=-
I've got one word for you.... "defense". There is a real need for people who know software design for large projects, and government contracts for some large projects.
Your reality is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. - Baron Munchausen
...and take up English.
Good points. From another perspective, however, you're describing the conditions that lead to the Peter Principle: within a heirarchical organization, individuals tend to be promoted to the level of their incompetence.
Managers in all such organizations tend to value managing above individual contributions. They also tend to assume that everyone would prefer to manage, given that chance, and that everyone sees the move from individual contribution to management as a step up the ladder. This is not (and should not) always be the case.
Unfortunately, there's no systemic solution to this problem, since it is a feature of heirarchy more than anything else. In individual cases, the thing to do is to look for a boss who can be convinced that you are more productive as an individual than you would be as a manager.
lucky you, I'm in a similar situation, but can't even get the shitty jobs either.
how boreing! who retires? i'm working till the day i die.
Come to Europe, where vacations are real, and company stakeholders include the employees.
I'm a Junior at a 4 year college...
When I entered, i was able to narrow down in a fraction of a second my choices:
- Business MIS
- Computer Science
I went with Business MIS for several reasons:
1. Outsourcing is there to stay, like it or not. They outsource programmers, but managment will likely stay put. MIS wins
2. MIS has more room to grow into upper management in stable companies. MIS wins
3. MIS has a signifigant business background, and can be applied to non-technology industries if needed. MIS wins.
In the end, I decided MIS (obviously). While I consider myself a geek, I love UNIX, I love coding, I used Mozilla since "milestones" (even have cvs account on mozilla.org). I run my own server in my home, had WiFi for years already....
yea, I'm a geek. CS would seem obvious.
But I also want to move up in a company. CS gives virtually no preperation towards moving beyond senior programmer. So it's pretty much a dead end unless you work for a company who doesn't really put value on it's own management (assuming such a company lasts long enough for you to move up).
I still geek it up. I made it my personal business to learn and keep up on CS.
But I think my MIS career path will leave me with many more options in the future. I see it already.
I've tried DVORAK. I loved it until I brought up VI, and then it seemed like I was coding drunk. Tried to come up with DVORAK-friendly key bindings for VI, but it just didn't make as much sense as the standard QWERTY bindings so I couldn't make it work.
Anyone know of a good DVORAK-friendly set of key bindings for VI? (emacs enthusiasts will be shot on sight)
Depending on what you know and what you want to do, you can find that kind of job. If you want something that looks like job security, learn COBOL and mainframe programming, and/or AS/400. Those jobs will never die. Move to places like Columbus OH or Hartford CT, work for something like an insurance company. Exciting, no. But you can spend a lot of time writing code.
If you want to keep doing interesting things, you have to learn new skills. Java/JUnit/XP; C#/.Net; I see a fair lot of ads for Python. And you'll have to keep learning new skills, and looking for new things to do; that's just the way it is.
Get the hell out of Silicon Valley. It's too expensive, the market's too overloaded, and the traditional high-tech business is consolidating: you've got no reason to be confident that you can avoid layoffs (viz. Peoplesoft.) The Santa Clara Valley is used up. (Ergo, find someplace that isn't used up.)
I'm guessng you don't have a security clearance, so if you can find a way, get one. The higher the better. Those are big-time assets. AND you can tell all your friends you're a spy.
Yes, but not likely in programming/IT/CS. Why not?
College kids type fast, they know their stuff from programming classes, there's plenty of them, and they work for ramen noodles.
Have you considered trying to go to a community college and re-uping your skill set, possibly in a different (but somewhat related) field? Before I transfered, my community college was training dual IT/Medical Technology majors to work with medical equipment.
If you're sick and tired of programming, you might try something like social services or nursing. Those fields have appreciated; albeit underpaid, people that work until retiriment and beyond. Those fields value good, dedicated people with experience more than they ever will the college kid looking for more in the pizza budget.
My advice? If you're tired of programming, look at what else you're good at (get ahold of the STRONG interest inventory), try for some financial aid through the federal government, and get the heck out of dodge. Life's too short to be miserable with hurting wrists.
And I work at one (in the valley no less) :-)
Not only that, we are hiring
email me at MinusOne-1@hotmail.com (set up just for this so don;t bother spamming) and I'll send you details.
Seriously.
I've had opportunities to upgrade my skill set at the university's expense over the years.I started out as a systems programmer for VM/SP and VS/1, through a 3270-based database (Model 204) and VM/ESA and REXX applications, and now I'm a Unix system admin with some Oracle DBA responsibilities, as well as auxilliary products like Tivoli Storage Manager and using lots of open source products like Apache, Exim, and perl.
We have an entire staff (both technical/development staff and functional staff) presently retraining from the 3270 world to SCT Banner, an ERP package based on Oracle DBMS, Application Server, etc. In addition, we've recently hired for our Tech Desk, and some functional areas have their own tech people as well.
It's worth a look at any rate.
Doug
You could go back to school for a few years and get an MBA. With skills in technology and management you could probably find a decent paying job somewhere much cheaper to live than the Bay Area (even just a few miles east in Sacramento). You could also switch to accounting and become a CPA. I know someone who gets $100 bucks an hour to do consulting because she is a CPA whith programming skills. She can come in, tweak, and fix a company's accounting systems and communicate with the accountants who use it in their language.
The preceding passage has been checked for spelling, you will find no sentence without at least one mis spelled word
Easy - federal government.
(1) 40 hour work week, no more.
(2) One of the best health benefits package for you and your family you can find.
(3) Pay that's not outrageous, either high or low.
(4) Stability and job security.
(5) Conferences and training galore (if you want, not required if you don't).
(6) Pay raise every year (cost of living increase).
I could go on but I trust I don't have to. I've been with the federal government for years and I'm not going anywhere. I work 40 a week and I go home. I set my own hours. I love my job.
Think about it.
Someone with 8 programs from start to finish probably has a clue about at least understanding business problems. 1) Start a company 2) Find someone with experience to run it. It sounds like you don't want to bother with the business side of things even if you do understand it. 3) Insert yourself as hands-on CTO and Development Manager. This allows you to create your own development culture. 4) Find a development team with your beliefs ( this will NOT be hard. You'll find many experienced people who work smart, not hard. 5) Find a good Product Manager who is market driven but can talk to Development. 6) Profit!
In some cases, a good chiropractor can clear up carpal tunnel (or at least some conditions that are diagnosed as such). It may be years of built-up tension in the wrist, which can be alleviated.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
.... but you'd have to go to India to find them.
I am also in a similar situation I have been programming since I was 7 years old, now at 37
I have the back of someone who's been programming for 30 years! I have avoided Carpel tunnel by never learning touch typing, so my hands are all over the keyboard, but I can type fast with just the right or left, or with the keyboard upside down.(useful when working on hardware)
Anyhow I found that managing and mentoring younger programmers and helping them avoid mistakes makes more sense then writing code.
Newer coders don't see how cool things at the start of a project can come back to haunt them, or "paint them into a corner" later in the project.
So I either start companies or manage teams. IE. Chief Architect, CTO etc. Spend a lot more time researching and reading, with some English writing rather then programming. and yet coming in and debugging code, and solving problems that a more novice programmer get stuck on. (deadlocks, leaks, real-time, optimization, compression etc.).
Think of it like pro-football player, you burn out and either become the coach or drop out.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
-- Karma whore? You betcha. --
Did you think you were special? The only one who can type a few lines of text into a machine? Why did you think this is worth money?
You're still a kid. Ask around. Ask the homeless how they got there, ask the 30 somethings what they're doing, and try to figure out the amount of people pumped out by the universities every year, where do they go???
Initially I was going to leave tech behind but you really can't. Whatever career choice you make you'll see a million ways to make it better with automation. Being able to write your own tools gives you a huge advantage over your competitors who have to spend a lot of money to get software that doesn't work as well. And your technical background will also make you more competitive than your peers in almost any other field.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
He is not management material? That would answer your question.
Nobody seems to be interested in career employees these days. The few people that are career seem to have settled into their jobs over many years and have stability due to politics rather than skill or even need. If you're looking for stability, you might try to look for a job in a city, state or national government. They're about the only ones that expect to be around later without mergers, buy outs or out sourcing(well, they do look at that but not as much as normal companies).
For your decreased skill set, wrist problems, and unhappyness with your job, I'd say you need to look at management. You're experienced and if you're a people person, you could take a few Project Management classes to impress the suits, brush up on your power point and become one of those people that go to meetings all day so the people who do the actual work don't have to.
Are you in the Baltimore/DC area or are you willing to move there? Are you and and your fiancee US citizens? If the answers are "yes", what's your e-mail address?
Seriously, you need to work for yourself. If you've had 8 ideas that companies you've worked for have taken from concept to profitability, why don't you think of the 9th one and take it to profitability on your own? I wish I had the problem you do... My problem is that although I'm good technically, I can't think of a good business-worthy idea to save my life. Most entrepreneurs (sp?) wish they had your problem.
You really should take your next idea, max out a few credit cards, and make a business out of it. If worst comes to worst, you can always go back to the 9 to 5 programmer working for the large megacorp lifestyle.
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?
[bendervoice] bwahahaha[bendervoice] Oh wait, your serious
[bendervoice] BWHAHAHAHA
So you want a middle management job in a big coporation is that it?
Seriously, your goals might have worked 20 years ago, but the market really doesn't support working at the same place until retirement anymore. With offshoring jobs, market swings, and whatnot any given job could be gone tomorrow. The only place you could really stay until retirement is if you had your own company. But if that was what you wanted, you wouldn't be asking for a cushy middle management job where the skillset of yesterday is all you need.
If what your really after is less working hours then first cut your overhead. Get out of silicon valley, go find someplace with a lower cost of living (that way you don't NEED to work as many hours). Keep your skills up to date to be as mobile as possible. Having a good job, yet being mobile is the best way to keep the checks rolling in until retirement. I have a great job now, surrounded by people I like, but I realize that the odds of having that job until retirement is near zero. If it lasts 10 years it would be great (currently at 2), but I'm not counting on it. Sooner or later the company will screw up and there will be layoffs and reorgs. It always happens, and it always will.
Best to be prepared and be ready to move on (or start your own company). Sure go find some middle management job now, but don't be fooled into thinking it will last forever.
Writing this I remember the Dilbert cartoon where Phil (the Prince of Insufficient Light) offers Dilbert a life of working for no appreciation or recgnition for lots of money or a life of recognition and satisfaction but being broke. All the engineers were interested in the money route...
Another route would be to leave programming and do something more 'substationial' (read: something you can actually touch, like the food industry, or construction) I've read that such fields have been a popular escape for burnt-out software people.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
The original post doesn't give any examples of his work, so it's hard to judge what he would be good at. It's understandable to remain anonymous if you are worried about trouble at work.
I would say DataDragon needs to float his resume out there. Definitely consider leaving Silicon Valley, as it is a hyper competitive enviroment.
I'm assuming that your resume is pretty strong. Consider going in for government or academic work, Which tends to be stable, if not so lucrative in the short run.
You might even consider hiring the services of a headhunter or related type person: let someone else do the searching for you.
evanchik.net
Every time we go to lunch, the other guys at my job (artists in their late 20's to mid 30's) always talk about job security and what they're going to be doing in the next ten years.
In the game industry, at least, the general consensus seems to be that once you get "too old" - by which they mean "in your mid-thirties" - there is no longer any place for you. Game studios claim to want "experienced" artists and programmers, but we all really know that they just want the cheapest talent they can get. They want a 22 year old savant who will work 70+ hour weeks for minimal pay.
But, like a previous poster already said; everywhere I've seen there is a need for experienced people with good leadership qualities. You can't get anything (worthwhile) done without an experienced captain at the helm. It would take a bit of searching, but I guarantee you that there's a place for someone like you.
If all else fails; use your years of experience and industry contacts to start your own company!
for great justice, this sig has been moved
I think the feasability of finding a job like that, especially in the software/hardware engineering field, is very hard beyond the large companies and public sector institutions/education. Much of what makes the computer industry is its innovation. The companies that make a point or get an edge are the ones that do something unorthodox, and I believe that most of those companies have employees with the sacrificial drive. Remember how Apple supposedly treated its engineers during crunch time for the Mac OS in the eighties? I think long-term jobs in the computer industry are a very small minority.
MY SECRET DIARIES
It's a gyroscope which really works your wrists as you try to keep it moving. It creates quite a force. Read more here -- http://www.powerballs.com/carpal_tunnnel_rsi.html
Ever think of working for a Uni? I work for a large (50,000+ enrollment) state university on the east coast, and the work conditions here are exactly what you're looking for. I'm making about $6k less than if I had accepted the entry-level equiv. job on wall street, but I get free tuition and amazing benefits. Except for the odd emergency (Less than 4-5 a year), I pull a 38.5 hour work week, with overtime being reimbursed with my choice of paid time off or $$.
Might be worth checking out the local Universities. They tend to take more chances on hiring 'non-traditional' staff.
As an added bonus, if you're working for the state, it's almost impossible to get fired!
Let us know how your Classified Ad goes here on /.
My job is like the one you describe. I'm 26 and could work there forever if I wanted. I get in at 8AM and leave at 5PM but put in some occasional extra hours when I feel like it. My boss is a great guy who leaves me alone except for occasional guidance or kicking back a few at a nearby pub. The atmosphere is very family-oriented; I'm definitely the oddball there being a single guy at my age. I'm paid well in a geographic location with an extremely low cost of living and a low crime rate.
It's in Oklahoma.
What's not to like about this state? It's certainly not the tech capitol of the world. If you're not a Christian or not a Republican, you will feel a little out of place. The local media and public transportation are jokes. It's a fairly insular culture.
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
You want government work. You get a pension, decent benefits (especially family benefits), and they're looking to keep you for a long time since they've spent so much on the background check. The job security is unreal, since unless you really fsck up or the government runs out of money, you'll keep your job forever. You can be proud because your software is helping to run the civilized world. Government systems don't run the latest and greatest COTS (depending on the department), so they're looking for people with older skillsets. You might look into local or state government offices who need programmers, or you could make the big leap to DC. The down side is obviously the pay. It's not Mad Corporate Greed money, but it's a decent living.
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Got made redundant 2 years ago from a job that killed my love of coding that i had since i was 11. Like a 20 year love affair dead in the water.
I mess about with stuff now for 'fun'. Snippets of PHP for websites. But no 'real' code. Started a small java project before xmas and just stopped working on it, I wasn't really enjoying it.
So i've been on my arse for 2 years and I still dont know what to do, so i'm gonna do nothing somewhere else. Selling the house, getting a motorhome (RV to you folks) and gonna tour europe for a few years till either my money runs out or i find something i want to do.
I almost feel bereft, there is nothing that really perks my interest anymore. don't know what im gonna do if the money runs out and I still feel like this.
I'm a 42 year-old code monkey,and while I've always been the type to look at a company in long term planning rather than the "here today-gone tomorrow" mindset, it's more of a problem finding a company that wants someone long term. Most companies look at employees as being long term if they stay 4-5 years. After that, they then have to think of them as near full vestment in the retirement account and start looking for ways to dump them.
Over the last 16 years, I've noticed that of the companies myself and my friends have worked for, when you hit the 5 year mark, they start to weed you out for a younger and cheaper programmer. Since many of the retirement accounts require a 6 or 7 year mark for "full vestment" the amount you don't get gets rolled into the company account and used to pay the "Company percentage" of your 401(k).
I have yet to find a large number of employees that have been at the same company for more than 4 or 5 years. The longest I've ever been at the same job was 8 years before they started "reorganizing."
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
"MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
Reading Paul Graham's excellent essay on what you need to know in highschool, I was left with an unanswered question. Teaching high school kids to look for difficult questions and choose challenging careerpaths is fine, but how do they cope with what is now an extrememly fickle job market? This is the real question I think.
It used to be simpler - companies valued talented people. Nowadays, companies value hot and cold-running talent - there's no concept of nurture, and this is largely due to the nature of capitalism.
As Adam Smith said, "capitalism is a financial workhorse, with blinkers to the past and future. It knows only now and sees only the present."
This has become our reality, and yes, it's ugly. You most likely won't program until retirement, you'll more likely be left out to graze in your early fifties to live off the state.
Is that a waste? Most definitely yes. But no-one ever said capitalism was an efficient workhorse.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
In a software house that values its software it is normal to have programmers with more than 30 years. Unfortunatelly not every software company understands that its long term success depends on the quality of software. I'm no longer a programmer, but I still program a lot and I don't intend to stop.
I started my career at Bell Labs over twenty years ago. When I was hired I was told by several people that the Labs had a no layoff policy, and even in the great depression had not layed off employees. Many people had been there for their entire careers - started fresh out of college and planned to work to retirement. Today Bell Labs is a division of Lucent, and mostly a brand name. The vast majority of employees have been layed off. The remaining work is in the process of being off-shored. This is happening all across the industry. My advice - learn something outside the tech field. Because, you'll never make it to retirement as a programmer.
[Insert pithy quote here]
I quit programming and am going to law school to get a real job and make real money. Programming is not a fun job anymore.
If you want to change your focus you need to actually change it before you ask an employer to give you an opportunity in that new area. They need to know that you are committed to the change and not just testing the waters.
That is, take coursework in that area or take a second job or volunteer position that demonstrates that you are confident that this is a change that you want to make.
I don't think most employers would be that interested to know that you switched focus because of carpal tunnel. They would want to know that you changed focus toward something where you would be productive and did it because it was in some way a natural progression for you.
I've also found that small companies are much more likely to repect and utilize the variety of skills on one's resume.
>>>> I've read about, are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?
You find a place like that let me know. I will be out of work in a couple weeks. The company I work for lost the contract and new company is only keeping the young/cheap. The old company is using this opportunity to clear out some people since they are moving a lot of work overseas.
That is what you will be fighting. Outsourcing and young people trying to get a start in the industry willing to work around the clock for half your salary.
Now some companies instead of going out of the country are moving to state with heavy unemployment and low taxes and opening up shop. But others like the big three letter company I work for are opening up center in Brazil to cut costs.
Just look at the marketing coming from the big computer companies they are trying to bring back the glass house approach to computing. Let them supply the computers, SA's, developers, and so on . That way you only play for these skills as you need them, why hire them long term.
So you have a good job hang on to it. If you're as good as you say let other companies know you're looking. Let them recruit you, then you will get a deal worth accepting.
I have seven years of software quality assurance experience, with six of those working for a video game company. I had to quit my job since my supervisor told me if I'm not willing to work 80+ hours a week, seven days a week, I needed to get out of the industry. Since I'm 35-years-old with an active social life outside of the company, and wanting to settle down to have a family, my days were numbered anyway.
Although I been learning programming and getting my network certifications for the last three years, I'm still getting a lot of phone calls from video game recruiters. It's frustrating since I don't want to work in that industry and probably wouldn't get hired when they find out I'm over 30. Breaking into a new field is very difficult to do.
The industy wants to chew you up, spit you out, and sell your work for as much as it can while paying you as little as possible. If your body is a bloated mass of cholesterol and you can't even wave without your wrist tendons cracking; it's not their problem.
Next!
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
But there are lots of interesting opportunities out there off the coasts. The money is not as good, but neither are housing prices, and if you can earn enough, you can always fly away to whatever it is you miss most about where you are. The places to be include the obvious (e.g., Minneapolis) and the possibly less obvious (e.g., college towns like Ann Arbor, MI, Madison, WI Lawrence KS, and Columbia, MO) There is something to be said for a place that has both Trader Joe's and a very nice house under $250K.
But I'll admit, it's not for everybody.
Babar
Our elected "leaders" sold us out to corporate interests, granting them leverage over you by not outlawing outsourcing and H1B, etc. Same thing goes for other white collar professions, and before that, our manufacturing backbone.
As for me, I am out of it....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
If this is the way you are feeling, you should ear mark some time to diversify your skill set with busniess-related courses, seminars, etc. Then get the hell out of silicon valley -- it is rather like living in D.C. and asking if there are any non-partisan people out there.
HA HAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa
According to some of the people responding, you should be working for a smaller company, and according to others, a bigger company. I have worked at big and at small companies that had a lot of overtime, low morale, and other classic problems.
As a software developer for over twelve years, also in my mid 30s, I have always worked as a a software developer but never "right in the industry". That is to say, I do not like to work at software-only shops:
(A) The problem with small software-only companies is their financial instability, and the lack of anywhere to go from here.
(B) The problem with big software-only companies, insurance companies, banks, and government work, is that I hate beaurocracies. Also these "big" places tend to have found ways to destroy joy, sense of accomplishment, and the potential to do anything new and interesting, by establishing huge sets of Policies, Procedures, that make my working life a living hell.
(C) I prefer to work in R&D, Engineering, and Science companies. I like to be the only software developer, or to work in a team of two or three equally capable software people. I like working with people who are friggin briliant, and who are results oriented, and who can't stand it when B.S. gets in the way of innovation. You know what I mean. Mordac, Preventer of Information Services, get thee behind me, before I smite thee! Pointy-haired bosses, beware.
Anyways, my chosen industry is a perfect fit with my skills and my shortcomings, because we all have both skills and shortcomings. I produce products that work, and which users are happy with, and they pay me and everyone where I work gets to do something that they love to do. Good deal. But I could not work just anywhere. For one thing, my shortcomings can get me fired. I don't suffer fools gladly, and I don't think that idiots should be allowed to dumb-down software designs to the point where the design is entirely pedantic enough for them to understand. I enjoy the actual work of programming, I like to build great software. I hate the other *crap* that does not contribute to the end goal. So, I have found where I fit. They like me, and I like my employers. Maybe *you* need to take a personal inventory, and find out where *you* fit.
Regards,
Franciscan.
The short answer to your question is, "yes." There are companies that want experience, leadership, and mentoring skills. There are companies that want experienced leadership to guide and direct younger minds (and younger wrists) in developing software. And no, Virginia, those companies are not all moving their jobs to India.
Focus on the technology, or on the business?
Programmers I've worked with over the years have tended to follow one of two tracks: focus on the technology, or focus on the business. If you focus on the technology, your skills are portable: the risk you take, however, is that your portable skills may be supplanted by a newer, better-marketed technology. (Case in point: Powersoft's PowerBuilder, which was all the rage ten years ago, and has all but disappeared from the marketplace.) To adopt a focus-on-the-technology view, you're committing to a permanent learning curve--and to constantly having to evaluate which of the new technologies are most likely to be worth pursuing.
Your question sounds to me like you're looking for the other tack: focusing on the business. In that role you're still working with the technology--but you're focused on how to improve the business. You're more technologically-agnostic: you know more about the specifics of the business than any particular tool.
The key: find a company that views you as an asset, not a cost
If you've been doing contract work, you're focused on the technology. And you've probably worked for a number of companies that view you as just another piece of meat to put in front of a computer to type code. To them, you're an expense. Far, far better is to find a company that views information technology as an asset--that says "if we do what we do better, smarter, faster, we have a competitive advantage." Those companies will, in turn, challenge you to do more, learn more, and offer more.
Where I work...
I work in Engineering, not in Information Systems--developing new products. The company very definitely wants me to do more, much more, of what I'm doing. From an accounting standpoint my work is booked as a depreciable asset--not as a line item on the expense ledger. I'm 46--while I still do quite a bit of coding (and I'm at work now, coding Transact-SQL for a big project), a lot of my day is spent teaching, coaching, and encouraging young programmers.
Want a gig like mine?
Some thoughts:
Is this just a young man's game?
I think you'll see
I have a job opening for exactly the position you are looking for. It is in Reston, Virginia... no, not like farmland - this is Northern Virginia, very close to Washington D.C. This is a great area to live - we have seasons, centally located for a lot of fun travel vacation, etc.
Go to www.fgm.com
click on 'careers'
filter on the Reston, VA positions
Look at the 'proess improvement specialist' position. Ignore what it says about 'RUP and ISO desired'. I don't know where that came from - I opened the position, and apparently the HR department added that. I will make sure that gets changed.
If asked for a referral, say something like "Dave Referred, from SlashDot."
There are other positions there that a burnt-out coder kight be interested in... but you mentioned process specifically.
If you want a career programming job find a big non-tech-vendor company with a world-class IT department - they do exist - and get in. These companies will often have a special career track for expert programmers so that your don't get into the situation where new college grads are hired on a salalery higer than yours. This also means you don't HAVE to move into low level management jobs just to maintain to standard of living - and then get fired durign the next reorg. Once you're in one of these companies find a project that looks interesting and make yourself indispensible. Don't laugh. I used to work in IT and I new a lot of old programmers who were quite happilly working on stuff they thought was pretty cool. There's always the risk of mass layoffs if the company isn't doing so well but you can't avoid that anywhere. In Silicon Valley look at companies that have moved their IT out to Pleasanton. Not too far to drive and it's a reverse commute.
EMACS keystrokes lead to premature death.
ZZ
I work for local (County) government. Cities, Counties, School Districts and the State are always looking for just that.
I work for a state agency - the organization which protects the environment as much as we are allowed to, and otherwise keeps score of who has degraded which piece of the state how much. There are 40-odd members of the IT dept. 1/3 networking pc trouble shooters and system administrators, 1/3 programmers, 1/3 GIS staff, and 1/3 the rest of the shop.
I've been with the agency since 1991, and have brought in several ex-co-workers I was with in the private sector who were chopped off by their corporate owners due to moves, business plan changes, etc.
Right now I'm implementing a web-services system, migrating systems from Foxpro to enterprise-level systems, learning about Linux, and trying to figure out how to migrate business intelligence from residing in a system built in a proprietary
environment into an open environment without just rewriting the system.
I also work with EPA staff, biologists, geologists, engineers, artists, and (ufortunately) pig-headed bureaucrats. Lawyers, too, and elected officials.
There's pressure to complete projects on time and under budget, to do a good job, to avoid the more hostile engineer-users, but I only work 40 hours a week, I get a bunch of holidays, the employer HAS to obey labour laws, and I now earn 6 weeks of vacation a year!
Plus the job is in an outdoor paradise, with mountain biking, rock climbing, caving, canoeing, hiking, gardening, bird-watching, etc...
If I want to get an answer to a natural science question, if none of my friends know, they refer me to someone with a PhD in the field, and I get the answer from them!
I do sometime have trouble with numbness in my fingers, but I stop typing when that happe
Joke...
I also have worked with people from all over the world, Asia, S America, Africa, India, Russia, you name it! They are a great resource for geo-political questions. And if I ever travel overseas, I will have phone numbers for people in the families of my friends, who will show me the high spots from a local perspective.
One co-worker just got a 2Mvolt Tesla coil for one of his hobbies, one just built a layer of GIS data for Ireland, where he's going next summer, one goes to hike the ridge tops in teh high Sierra every summer, and others esplore abandoned hard rock mines for rare minerals.
So working for a responsible government agency is a good answer to the question:, "Where can I work a regular life and still do computer stuff?"
Keep it in mind!
AC in the mountains
2 years? What is wrong with you? Are you asking for too much money or something? Seriously. I don't get it.
The federal government works on amazingly diverse and exciting software development projects, and they are looking for people EXACTLY like you. You can make a lot more than normal GS-payscale people, and get to work on incredibly interesting and unique projects. I'm sure that Military and intelligence agencies do some REALLY neat stuff, and you could be a part of it. You also get a real feeling of serving your country. The benefits are REALLY good, and if you plan right, you can make out quite well in retirement.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
In upstate NY where I live, programming jobs aren't much different than what you are describing. At least the 3 or so jobs I've had here. Sure, the pay isn't as good, but my house that would cost $200k+ in CA cost less than $90k. And the work isn't as glamorous either. But family life and 40 hours is pretty standard, and life is a little less hectic. Commutes are approximately 10 minutes more than the number of hours traveled. And the people are a lot less superficial. Just my opinions anyways.
I am a former Army science officer (yes, they do exist---I did HMMWV [Hummer] and Blackhawk helicopter final tests in 1981-1983). I was EXTEMELY frustrated out of the service, and almost went back in (in spite of my wife's wishes). I have worked for Dept of Homeland Security (my former branch was Customs) for 18 years now, and I'm quite happy. Numerous tech jobs around the country. I perform computer forensics in the Miami Lab for us (DHS) as well as FBI and local police. Your good skills will not be wasted.
A lot of the programming jobs are moving to India and you can jump in on the tech boom there. Do you like curry?
Most people I know go straight to the keyboard right when they start on a particular segment of code. If, however, you work it out on paper first, it's likely that: you will find problems in the code easier; you can see the big picture easier; with proofreading, the code will be somewhat stable before you type it; you'll be more familiar with it. As a result, you'll likely actually do significantly less typing and, especially, mousing around (the real wrist-killer) to track down errors, not to mention end up with better code.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
I die on the day I can no longer write my own code. Figuratively and literally.
[o]_O
Either in Sunnyvale or on the East Coast, it's a great company.
Not that I can name any of such possible employers, but software shops developing "Mission Critical" (i.e. aerospace control software etc) software would probably be looking for just the kind of employee you intend to be, right? Stability, dependability and long term loyalty would be key points they would look for in an employee. And furthermore I cannot see any reason why such shops would be set up anywhere but a dull, boring and slow paced small town somewhere.
I've recently celebrated the 30th anniversary of my30th birthday. I've been programming for about 25 years, and intend to keep going at least 6 more. I tried big companies, i tried small startups. None of them was satisfactory. The big company no longer exists (thanks to hostile takeover attempts and the man known as "the junk bond king" whose name I won't utter). The startups are also too volatile, though for different reasons. Then I stumbled upon a small company that was then 15 years old, have been with the company for 14 years, and as long as it stays in business and doesn't get bought up by a vulture, I plan to stay. (I'm getting too old to go looking for a job anyway).
Starting his doctoral degree in his early 30's, he probably wouldn't be done until his mid to very late 30's, depending on how much education he already has. He'd be entering the tenure track at least a decade later than everyone else. This is a huge disadvantage when it comes time to get from tenure track to actually having tenure. For example, at my school, (MIT), you're expected to come up for tenure review around your early/mid 30's. While a genius who has been working in a research environment and publishing could get tenure starting a decade late, the average ex-programmer would have no chance-he simply wouldn't be able to publish fast enough to make up for the lost time.
Also, in general the 'get tenure' step is far harder than you make it sound at any respectable school, even if a person starts at the right time.
Well, as you put in your question, I guess this is every programmer's dream: to get a stable, 40 hours week programming job surrounded with people that you know and care about. But I think that programming is not the kind of job that one can do untill retirement - it is a highly-demanding job that requires up-to-date knowledge and brings higher levels of stress than other jobs.
So, I think that after certain age every coder gets tired of keeping up with the technology and stress, and this is the time when they either get pushed into a managerial role, or stay coders till retirement, maintaining legacy applications in legacy languages.
In a way, programming is like soccer: you play it till you reach the age when you no longer can keep up with the younger (or leave it early because of a bad injury, for example). And then you train the younger until retirement.
It is certainly not a something than man can do for all of his life.
That is my plan. Right now I'm working for a company to pay the bills while my wife finishes her residency in anesthesia. Once she's making the bucks, there is no way I'm working for anyone else.
:)
I've worked for a few startups, and have many friends who've also worked for a few each. Only one of us has made their millions.
Once I don't need to pay the bills, I'll be looking to start a project on my own. I have a few ideas, but I'm only 33. If you have ideas, look around for a few guys to start up something on the side. 8 months of evening and weekend programming, and 3 guys can probably whip something into reasonable shape.
The only way to get along well is to work for yourself.
Although that post above with the guy working for the insurance company with 7 weeks vacation seems like a good deal...
Go Defense contracting. Many of the large companies Boeing, Lockheed, Ratheyon, Northrup, all have long term needs to for programmers, and many of them work very interesting jobs. Althought if you are a person that likes to talk about what you are doing with yoru spouse, it probably isn't the best place. Unlike many industries defense programming jobs CANNOT be shipped over seas.
If you are looking for a job change, I know Lockheed is down in San Diago.
I have used and learned many new technologies over that time. Besides that, I have gained a lot of non-IT knowledge in those industries. I know of a number of other people who eventually tired of programming and IT in general and moved into the business side of the industry they were doing IT work in. It can be a very easy move as having an IT background can be a valuable asset over and above the business knowledge aquired.
Seriously. That's where programmers (can) go when they get old, they don't just fade away. They don't have to get outsourced, they don't all retire at the age of 35 worth zillions accumulated from stock options at half a dozen companies, they can go into management. If you really do have those kinds of leanings, you should seriously consider adjusting your career path towards the management track. Bear in mind that typically companies don't hire you in as a manager (or department head, or whatever) unless you have previous management experience. Instead, you should build up your leadership profile where you are: take on team lead roles, take on architect roles (if you have the chops), be willing to carry the project plan around and be the project manager. I once had a group of jovial senior developers refer to me as the "elevator runner." Our project team was split between 2 floors of a high-rise office building, and since I was the "team lead" for that batch, I was the one who got in the elevator to go upstairs to see the project manager. It wasn't a derogatory comment, it was just a humorous description of my role--and just recognizing that it was a different role than theirs, which was to be senior developers.
I believe that most companies think that they can hire any codemonkey out of college to do what you can do (but their's will need massive rework/refactoring) in 10x the time, even though they're only 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. Plus the older you get, the more time you're going to want to spend with your family (you did manange to pick up one of those along the way, didn't you?), and then there's other outside interests, like neighborhood associations and other civic and church (or Cthulhu) functions. Oh yeah, the older you get, the more time you're going to need for medical visits, and there's a health club in your future where you'll injure yourself once or twice a year.
And do you really want to continue working in software? Especially with the hours and working conditions? You have to face it, one cannot easily estimate how long software takes to get done (and I'll address that later), and since developers are some of the most optimistic people in the world, you'll invariably end up staying late about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time, especially if a PHB takes everybody's estimates and cuts them by a third, 'cuz he knows you can do it!
Unless you can find yourself one of the few jobs open at a big software shop like IBM where they have people that hopefully do a good job at estimating effort (and I had a buddy there that they didn't, and he had to essentially work 1 year of 60-hour weeks), you'll end up working at a small coding shop where they'll have to make optimistic projections to get the contract, and hence you're working late... again! And if you work at a place where software isn't the main product, you'll have clueless PHBs that are unable to figure out that software indeed *does* take that long to do, and why aren't you coding yet??!?
The folks that I know that are older and are making it in software have made names for themselves, have written one or more books, attend OOPSLA where they're presenters or panelists, or are otherwise looked upon as gurus. The rest of them are scraping along, waiting for the axe to fall... again. The true failures I know are those that don't want to update their skill set, or have truly vertical knowledge and are unable/unwilling to move to where their market is.
Unless a young person I know has true passion for software, and is willing to do the Software Engineering thing, which they used to not emphasize enough in undergrad, I tell them to find something else to do since unless they trip on the pot o' gold (and I know a guy that's been doing MS Access programming from home on a government contract for the past 10+ years that has been pulling in six figures the entire time), they're not going to make it on less-than-passion.
Now, where do you go from here? Hmmm... that's a really good question. As soon as I know, I'll let you in on it.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
That's what the GP said.
The fact, You came across this question shows that You think more than a lot of people and you deserve a better job.
I doubt if they offer the kind of salary you are used to, we live in West Virginia after all, but my company is a very tight-knit place with very low turnover, In fact of the 10 or so software engineers currently employeed I could see at least five staying here until they retire. Myself included.
The ownership/management is great to work with. The comraderie is unsurpassed. And the work is varied so we don't get bored too often.
you can check out our ugly webpage at http://www.sbcs.com
Quit your job already if you don't like it. Go back to school, learn something that won't be outsourced to India like marketing pornography on the Internet, and get a new job.
Being good at operations and infrastructure tasks requires precision and repetition of tasks according to best practices. If you can't use the language, you're not going to be able to follow directions and do things right, first time and every time. In short, i'll be firing you soon.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
The problem with working somewhere until retirement is that companies and employees are becoming less loyal to each other. Companies will cut staff to save a few bucks and employees will often bolt to wherever they can find the biggest paycheck. Certainly there are a few places where an employee could catch on with a company and work until retirement, but they're becoming harder to find.
I've had fairly good experience with SMB's that write their own applications or need to customize packaged software. In my experience these have been less deadline-driven environments with less stress as a result. The difference may be that for these businesses, software is a business enabler, rather than the business itself.
The problem with software development as a long term career is that after a certain point, experience isn't really worth much -- after about 5 years in a particular technology, you'll be about as good as you'll ever be. Given this, it makes little business sense to hire a 40 year old with 25+ years of experience for $100+K when you can get a 26 year old who is just as good, possibly even better, for $60K.
In other words, don't expect to be a pure code monkey for 20 years. Yes, it can happen - but thats the exception rather than the norm. You need to find a way to provide value from your experience - value that the business is prepared to pay for. There are various ways of doing this, typically they involve moving into management.
By the way: if you expect to be mentoring, then you'd better get cracking on that "3 year old" skillset of yours. Nobody would want a mentor that doesn't bother to keep up with their field.
I'm older than you. (57) I've been retired from this industry for a while now. This trend has been ongoing for years, but it seems to be accelerating of late.
Being a programmer has become a lot like being a musician or artist. It's very hard to make a normal living at these crafts. Many musicians have day jobs that pay the bills, and practice their craft on their own time, for the joy of it. This is analogous to programmers writing Free Software in their 'spare time'.
Big business in America seems to have given up on the traditional industrial model of employing workers, turning out products, making a profit on sales. The new model seems to be more like a very complex pump-and-dump stock scam. It's all about profiting from the sale of the company itself, products and workers are more for show.
This will, ultimately, destroy our economy and the country itself. You are experiencing a small part of this right now. It will get worse before the worker/consumers wake up and revolt.
I hate to break it to you but programming is largely a young man's game.
The only place that would value what you offer are the smaller shops. Small shops are pretty damn volatile, too. If they don't have product x out by date y then it can mean the whole company closes up...so the deathmarches are often worse IMO.
I love programming and plan to do it for a few more years. I started my own proprietorship just short of five years ago now and do that on my own time. Soon enough I will be able to focus on that full time and hire a couple people underneath me (I've already confirmed sales once I deliver the product).
In the end I'll remain in the industry but as my own boss and having others do the programming. Don't get the wrong idea--I love programming and will always stay up to date with the latest framework and languages--but I'll use that information to direct my company. I'll be able to dictate which tools to use to the team and not just sit back and cross my fingers that they know what they are doing (like most single owner companies I know).
Best of luck. I'd recommend following my route if you can come up with something original and useful. If not, you can always do something else as your own boss such as consulting (and there are many definitions for that term...security consultant, Q&A code audit and testing consultant, etc.)
Janine, someone with your qualifications would have no trouble finding a top-flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries.
Actually, I'm 15 and had something similar to carpal tunnel at about age 11 (can you believe it? These damn Silicon Valley people :-D). My big worry was nixing it before high school! I was lucky enough to not have any nerve issues, just sore wrists, but mousing was definitely my issue. My parents both also had mousing issues, but once we switched to vertical mice and adjusted posture, we're all better. Rather than going dvorak, I used IBM ViaVoice for a few months so I could use the computer at all but was eventually able to migrate back into using a normal setup. I have a pretty nice acer split keyboard with a builtin touchpad (which I don't use...) and an amazingly cool Evoluent Vertical Mouse. The big thing for any kind of repetitive strain injury is reduce and relax. I took biofeedback training for a few weeks and it helped me immensely. Not playing games for 6hrs+ a day and switching to learning Java helped too... Now I'm productive and I don't have any problems! Watch your posture too, you can get neck/shoulder issues really easily. You probably already have hypertension and it's just below threshold so you don't treat it.
Try to get a job at Northrup Grumman, General Dynamics, Boeing or Lockheed. There's no indication that the economy will become less militarized, so these are places where you have a chance of staying there until retirement. Not only that, these places are process intensive because the government and military branches require them to document, measure report the effectiveness of their process.
These companies need people with the ability to understand software engineers, know how to work, compromise and ease them into these new software processes. You can be a technical manager, a software quality assurance guy or part of the always omnious SEPG (the software gestapo).
These companies also spend 100's of millions of process. So they are opportunities.
Here is some advice. Even though there are many ads online for jobs at these kind of companies, your best way to get in is with someone already at one of these places.
How can you meet these people? Go to embedded conferences and software process conferences. To make yourself more marketable, learn PSP/TSP, learn Six Sigma; and get certificates. Knowing is great for the interview, but either pay the money or get your current employer to pay for this.
Also, try to make yourself savy with Integrity, VX Works, Linux and XML. Try to gather up what you can on at least 1 of the OS's, and for sure understand XML and know which programming tools are out there you can use. Why? XML is the golden cow of file handling right now. (I think its over done but you will find out why later in this msg.)
These companies are primes, so only the really big contracts, like 10-15 year contracts go to them. But the government expects them to sub-contract a lot of the work. Getting in with a small company that is currently working on the big contracts out there is a good way of finding work at the primes. Most subs will send their people to process and software training at the primes site, its a great opportunity to make contacts and build your network.
Granted most people don't like the idea of working for a defense company. I'm a progressive, and yes, these places house a majority of fact-ignorant republicans. It might be lame, but that was something I thoguht a lot about, but I got over it quickly. These places also keep a lot of ancient, useless and lazy dinosaurs. If you destroy a million dollar project, what usually happens is that you're put on another million dollar project. So if you're a great software engineer, the sky is the limit for you.
http://www.orionhealth.com/careers.htm
See you at the interview!
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
I've worked commercial and academic. All of those were fun and interesting, but some (mostly commercial) demanded long hours. That late-night work never resulted in the promised recognition.
Now I work for a govt. research lab. Although money is sometimes tight, and the paperwork is sometimes a pain in the butt, there are some really nice things about it:
- The pay is good (not mind blowing, but quite good).
- I work with some of the smartest people I've ever worked with. Almost everyone has a master's degree, and a good fraction have their PhDs.
- The job stability is pretty good (although no guarantees)
- Because of the stability, I can feel free to dedicate my efforts to learning the problem domain, rather than staying abreast of each new glitzy programming language. I.e., I can focus on my current job rather than always focusing on being sellable in case I'm laid off.
- If you land the right job, you get the sense that you're work actually goes to help people, rather than just line the pockets of some rich sociopathological CEO. That's a nice feeling.
Maybe the most important thing is the regular hours. If you're planning on having kids, it's great for them to expect you home every night for dinner and for you to actually show up. Kids thrive with that kind of stability and with your actually being around when they're awake. They only have one childhood - don't miss it. A slightly more exciting career isn't worth it.
Since when was the number of lines a measure of productivity?
As for myself, I have only written 3 lines of code in my carrer, but man, you should see them!
Usage: fortune -P [-f] -a [xsz] Q: file [rKe9] -v6[+] file1
I think your might even have underestimated your taxes....I think they would be closer to $40,000/yr, sadly.
And I don't regret it one bit. I do database and web development for our School of Public Health and in addition to the low stress, I also feel like I'm contributing to something much more meaningful than making some jackass investors rich. Hope to start doing master's work in CS soon - I could take a few hours a semester here for free, but I'll probably take the tuition reimbursement for another institution instead.
They say the mind is the first thing to
"I don't program all that much anymore (certainly not in C, mostly in MATLAB and Scheme nowadays)."
I assume that Dvorak and Lisp are a perfect match?
Except they're not any more, so I really need to get out. But how do I go about that? I can't just pick up and move somewhere and hope I'll find work. And the labor market is ovesupplied everywhere, so nobody will even look at a nonlocal resume. Even if you make it clear that you'll pay your own relocation.
Maybe this is a subject for a fresh Ask Slashdot!
The bad news: Computer programming, by it's very nature, is a temporary position. The programmer's task is to direct a computer to do a repetitive job automatically. If a programmer does his job well, there is no need for him once the computer has these directions. The concept of a "full-time programmer" is an oxymoron to me.
The good news: If you know how to program a computer, there is a virtually endless supply of jobs that need automating, but you can't get to them working for only one company. You will need to become an independent contractor. Since, as you have probably already discovered, 90% of the people in these "Full-time" IT jobs don't have the skills they need to complete the task they are assigned (maybe that's why they are "full-time"), there is a huge demand for contract programmers. Plus, if you don't like a job, you will have a different one in a number of months anyway. And, the more and various jobs you complete, the more current and in-demand you become.
It takes a little confidence in yourself to take the leap of faith, but if you know what you are doing behind a keyboard, it is the only way to go!
HTH,
Good Luck!
Usage: fortune -P [-f] -a [xsz] Q: file [rKe9] -v6[+] file1
Screw silly valley - get out of the USA.... then you'll find much better pickings elsewhere.
The Middle East seems to be pretty active, not to mention S Asia.
There isn't much of a future for American programmers anymore.
I transitioned from being a programmer to manager without difficulty since I still did a majority of design and some of the implementation. But I could see the proverbial handwriting on the wall and not wishing to be a full-time, meeting attending, budget-watching manager, I changed careers. As others have commented, once you reach a certain age/experience/salary level, you almost certainly will be promoted and the job will change (different kinds of and not-so-fun headaches). Before you get too frustrated in a new position, consider options already mentioned here such as changing careers.
No man's an island, unless he's had too much to drink and wets the bed.
I have a friend who does a ton of Excel, which is perhaps the epitome of either massively using the mouse or massively using the keyboard depending on your style...
According to him, one of the major financial institutions, upon hiring an excel monkey of any sort, will take their mouse away for 1 solid month before giving it back.
Whether the story is true or not, it inspired him to try absolutely everything with keyboard before reaching for the mouse and since then he's became way more productive and accurate.
Interesting read and I can't agree more (speaking as a mid-40's year old former software engineer then manager). It's definitely hard to devote the necessary time in IT toward keeping up with changing technology and business practices while simultaneously devoting more time to family and community activities.
No man's an island, unless he's had too much to drink and wets the bed.
I've just started my own hitman business, and could really use the work! Right now, my equipment is limited to a fairly sharp pencil, but I'm quite good with it!
How Flipen redundant
That is so 5 minutes ago
I think it depends on what sort of company you are with
I joined my current employer straight from university in 1972. At the time it was a small software development company, writing bespoke software for customers on a paid basis. They key to a long career in the same firm is to continue to re-invent yourself as the experience kicks in, and the industry changes, and to hope that the company continues to be a success and grows. For it is only the ability to take on more responsibility that allows the company to pay you more for the experience you have gained.
For the first 6 months I didn't really do any programming, more learning how the business worked (how to write proposals to customers! - when I started I didn't even know what a proposal was). Then I got an assignment at the space centre in Germany for a year, and when I came back I was seen as someone with a little experience. So then, not only did I program (I became the expert in RSX-11M on PDP 11s) but I was also expected to supervise others.
From there - right until the late 1980s, I combined technical work (not just programming, but as I got more experience I designed more and more complex systems) with project and eventually line management. The more senior I got, the less the technical work involved detail and the more it became strategic.
Some times this would combine with management responsibility for people (and profit) at other times I was setting technical policy for senior management (I was responsibly for getting networked PCs on to peoples desks in those early days of the PC).
At the beginning of the 1990s, the ability for our company to win projects in which you wrote a bespoke solution for a customer started to decline, and the new business was more about buying in products and configuring them to meet business requirements. So again, my career and my skill sets had to migrate. This time, it was more about understanding the business needs of the customer and being to select and propose the correct solution. So now my career became a combination of consultancy and pre-sales support. I still had to have a technical knowledge of what was possible, but it was now a long time since I had written serious amounts of software as a programmer, and the knowledge of how business operates and how IT can help it became more important.
And the type of business is changing again, and as it does so does my role. Business Process Outsourcing (possibly offshore) is where the real volume of business is now. My role therfore is to identify, on a worldwide basis, and in my specific business oriented field (IT necessary to allow competitive electricity and gas markets to work), where the market is spending money, and how our company can bring its experience to win business in the BPO area. I am then called upon to both present these issues to potential customers to help win business, but to also present in public forums (conferences, magazine articles etc) these ideas and why they are sound.
Each of these steps has been a step away from pure programming. Some steps have been scary (its very nerve racking having to present in public in front of a large audience), but ultimately the fact that you have met the challenge is very rewarding. And so today, I am far removed from the original career. But I am still with the same company, in the IT business, its just that I have changed with the times.
I have described my career, and I am not alone in the company of having people who have been around for a long time and continue to do (to a greater or lesser degree) technical (from an IT sense) sort of work (there are even more who have migrated into pure management). I don't think any of them do serious programming (although sometimes someone will write a small proof of concept or a quick demonstration for a customer), but somehow there careers have migrated to being the "liaison" between the business world and the technical world. I think all of them would say that its a rewarding type of role.
She's just retired at the age of 60, having been a programmer for the last 40 years. Started on punched tape, with Marconi, and continually learned new skills from then.
However, whether it'll be possible in another 30 years is anybody's guess.
I hope it is - then I'll still have a job!
"Well I have encountered a lot of people who don't even try to factor code. Granted, many shops don't like highly-factored code and force one to copy-and-paste."
C&P isn't recommended in any serious shop.
Put your mouse up on the desk and use a wrist rest.
Conrad
If you want a job you can retire in, where they will never get rid of you, and it matters if you have knowledge acquired over years and years on the job, go into aerospace.
I've been at companies where most of the software people had been there 20+ years and were all holdovers from FORTRAN. Couldn't modularize or do functional decomposition if their lives depended on it, let alone OO (which there is no way they'd ever try). Every new product is just baselined off their one major success, and they like it that way. Maybe you'll like it, but I got bored there.
I was talking about Smiths Industries, in Grand Rapids Michigan (which is allegedly a good place to raise kids). I hear most big aerospace companies are similar, or have divisions that are similar. Honeywell, Rockwell Collins, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, etc. The place I'm at now is also aerospace, but we actually give a damn about coming out with something that's never been done before, that customers are gonna want even though they've never seen it. I looked at an org chart a couple days ago, and noticed that all engineering was classed under "R&D". I'm sure places like Smiths were the same way when they were up-and-coming 20-30 years ago, but they aren't now.
Wow, put me down as another "You only pay $10k?" asker.
For comparison, let's look at the situation for a reasonably qualified programmer with five years' experience in a decent company here in the UK -- probably someone in a pretty good developer position on a project, or starting to move into team leader roles. Typical salary for such a person might be in the 35-45k UKP region (currently around 65-85k USD).
Our income tax system works in stages. On salaries up to the mid-30s, you're paying about 33% altogether in income tax and National Insurance, less a small allowance that is untaxed or taxed at lower rates. Above the mid-30s, the NI drops out but the income tax goes up to 40% at approximately the same place. That means that just in income tax and NI, someone on 35k UKP gives back around 10k (nearly 20k USD), and someone on 45k UKP pays around 13k UKP (well over 25k USD).
Most purchases then carry a 17.5% "Value Added Tax" on them, though in fairness a lot of basic necessities are exempted from this. And of course, about 105% of the purchase price of fuel is tax. ;-) Then there are a few other significant taxes, covering things like profits from selling expensive goods or shares that have increased in value significantly since they were bought.
I've seen figures suggesting that an average person over here ultimately pays around 75% of their total income to the government through taxes. That seems a bit steep to me intuitively, but I could easily believe well over 60%. Sure, we get some things paid for by the government in return, though not as much as many people seem to think: we do have the National Health Service, which is supported through those NI payments, but my ashthmatic SO still has to buy her own inhalers, for example.
Anyway, if you had a combined income of 130k and were only paying 10k tax on it, you were amazingly lucky compared to many people. Even if that was only the income tax, I'd imagine you were still a lot better off than most at an effective income tax rate well under 10%.
Not that any of that detracts from your story or is meant as any kind of reflection on you, of course. It's just an observation that your zenith year income was very, very good.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?
Yes. From my experience the vast majority of IT shops in business are like this. You can find these shops repeated all across the country.
Also, keep in mind an honest days work earns an honest days pay with benefits. You don't make six digits, but you get to go home at night and have hobbies.
Government Job.
Seriously, I've been a business analyst for several years for the state I live in and it is very steady, stable work with OT being *very* rare. Yes, the pay is not great, but I can live with that. I'm sure I've made more over the last 5 or so years than many people who were making nice 6 figure salaries who are now scraping to get by.
There has been some effort in recent years to make the technology jobs pay somewhat closer to what private industry pays, with mixed results. It's generally not possible to pull down 6 figures in government, but you can earn $60-80 K fairly easily.
I'm taking the tortise approach (as opposed to the hare). Time will tell how this works out. I also supplement my income with rental income, but that's another story. The bigger question is: How much do you need and how much is it worth to you to have it? Is what you've earned so far worth the carpal tunnel that you may have to deal with for the rest of your life? Do you like high-stress environments? Do you like working 60+ hours a week? Etc.
Best of luck.
Well, I guess I can sypmathize a little bit, though I'm not terribly impressed. I'm 20, still in school, and work full-time. I've had written over a million lines of code long before I ever even went into a professional career. (I had written a couple of 100,000+ lines programs in QBASIC by the time I was 14) My skillset includes a whole host of things I enjoy and don't enjoy including VB, C, C++, Java, various web formats, to things like PLC ladder logic. I have been head development on a total of three custom software solutions for the company I worked for previously all of which I wrote the majority, if not all of the code and were all designed and proposed on my own volition. After three years of hell at that corporation, I've moved to a low-stress IT manager position at the local orchestra. Frankly, though I enjoy not coming home and wanting to die from all the stress of that sort of position, I really miss the challenge of that sort of fast-paced high-stress environment where there are a few million dollars riding on the projects you are working on. Personally family is the furthest thing from my mind at this point so I can't really sympathize with that.
If you want my opinion (judging from the previous paragraph, you probably don't anymore) I would say the smartest thing to do would be to try to work for yourself. If you can develop some software on your own that you can own the rights to and sell, you could make yourself a nice bit of money especially if you cater to a niche market. There is a desperate need for well-written industrial quality management software out there, options like SQC Pack simply don't cut it in the real world and never will. If you can write a light-yet-feature-filled application to apply to some specific niche and then successfully sell licensing to even a few locations, you could bring in enough money to allow yourself to get a less life-consuming occupation and spend time with your soon to be wife and children.
Companies spend tens of thousands of dollars on seats for applications that are written by (poorly) self-taught authors whose only saving grace is that they were exposed to a field long enough to know the ins and outs of it well enough to write a program that at least sort of fufills a niche related to their primary occupation. These people are not hackers or even skilled programmers and their software leaves a lot to be desired. If you are patient enough to read some lengthy (and boring) books on the niche you intend to fill, and if you are a skilled enough programmer to write a better program than a company is currently using, you can and will go far with it. Companies, especially industry, hate to have to deal with tech-support and hate to have to pay for extremely expensive service agreements that mostly just make their lives more difficult than anything else. If you can write applications that work well enough that they will not suffer from the down-time generally associated with such applications you will gain a fair bit of word-of-mouth advertising and potentially even see yourself as a company-wide distro. Furthermore, if you can avoid the temptation to get greedy and cheat your customers on their licenses and updates and such, you will gain even greater respect.
In closing, I feel it's possible to program into your retirement, however I think that the employer you should be looking for is yourself. For that matter, find a needy enough niche and sell yourself well enough, and you'll probably be looking at retirement a lot earlier than you had hoped. Though I've not been 'on the block' long, I've already figured out that innovation, not blue-collar-esque pluggery is the key to succeeding.
Our greatest enemy is neither a single man, nor is it a nation, it is, as it has always been, our own greed.
Gee, same here, including the manager gig. No wonder it all sounded so familiar, eh?
After the bust, I ended up working for a small educational publisher, doing development *and* IT. I'm the only developer, though the other guy shines at support (and wants my job dearly, and backstabs constantly). I average 55 hours/week. Family, what family? No, I'm not bitter.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
I have a question.
Where did the concept of "retirement" come from, and how did it get to be so commonplace that it is now the expectation for all Americans?
From what I can tell, there is no suggestion of concept of retirement in the Bible, for instance.
I can say that I don't really plan on retiring. I plan on slowing down, at some point, but all too often Americans bust their chops doing something they hate, get to 55 or 65 or whatever it is, then on Friday they have a lunch party at work, and Monday by 9:30 am they're sick of watching the same TV programs they'll watch for the rest of their sad bored lives.
It's not like i can work my butt off until i am 70 and _then_ do all the stuff i didn't have time to do. My body and mind will be numb and useless as far as competitive motorsports by the time im 60, maybe even 40. If i dont invest in those interests now, i simply wont ever get to try them.
I don't know what I'll be doing as i continue to age, but I don't plan on just calling it quits some day. When you are in a financial position that traditional retirement seems like a feasability, instead of coming to a complete stop, why not slow down? Why not do something different? 60 seems like a wonderful time to start making handmade wooden furniture (assume eco nazi's have not made tree-felling illegal by then) and selling it to people. 70 seems like a great time to write books about the historical development of computer science, from an industry perspective.
If you're looking to get into a mentoring role where wisdom and experience are respected and badly needed, why not jump into academia ?
My great grandfather was a house painter until he was 94. He died when he was 95.
In my opinion, nothing is sadder than watching the mind and body of a 60 year old atrophy from non-use. Don't plan on non-use of your mind, body, and drive.
Plan to be financially _able_ to retire, but use this cushion to have complete freedom in your choices regarding what you want to work on next.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I'm only a college student, but it seems to me (especially looking at my Computer science professors here on campus) that since you're more than fairly experienced in programming, you'd be more than an adequate "mentor" for computer science students. Besides, working as a professor gets you quite a few benefits, especially if you're thinking of raising a family (think long vacations!). I don't know how demanding the educational field is, but you're probably likely to find schools willing to keep you for as long as you like. Just my own $0.02 worth of ideas.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
First, I want to say there are some great posts in this thread, including the suggestions of scaling back your spending habits in exchange for happiness ("Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is a fast & wonderful read on this), switching to an industry where you become a bigger fish in a smaller pond, and in particular, starting your own business.
I've never been happier in my career than when I started my own business, and I love it so much that I advise a lot of entrepreneurs on how to start their own. I've got 10 suggestions to make this easier:
1. Do things that you "know" you could do in your sleep. You'll find that productizing them isn't as easy as you think, but your mildly inflated confidence will reduce stress and pull you through the process.
2. Don't generate supply for which there is no demand. I am from the game industry, and I know a lot of game developers who start making demos for games that they have not bounced off customers like players and publishers who can with a single facial expression, tell you whether you're onto a stunning high concept or just a run-of-the-mill one.
3. Approach companies rolling in cash that share your aesthetic sense and philosophies, particularly ones with founders who share your background or interests. Tell them a little bit about your background, and ask if they could use a coder like yourself.
4. In any project you propose, find a way to pull the description back to the bottom line. At the end of the day, coders usually don't sign your checks. Suits do. What suits know is the value of money. So use layman's terms to explain why the software is important, including walk-throughs of the user experience and explain why the software will make more money than the alternative.
5. Learn what the word "comp" means. It's short for "comparison", and it is a key to chatting up suits. They're inherantly skeptical of all things new, but if you really do your homework (God bless Google), you can usually find analogous projects to what you're doing that will make your business case. No matter how "new" you think your product is, at the very least, it probably follows some business model and customer experience that has gone before.
6. Don't make part of a product and look for completion funding. This very rarely works out, and you have no recourse if no one steps up, because consumers don't want to buy partial products. If you go all the way and finish a product, even if it's radically simplified, your distribution options, exit strategy, and back-end profits are all far more lucrative.
7. Try to identify your weaknesses early and bring on partners to compliment them. Unless you've got a track record of being highly adaptable, trying to fit yourself in a role you're not suited for will consume far too much of your time and create stress.
8. Hire a junior coder. Your wrists are fucked. Stop pushing yourself. They'll only get worse. Get over whatever is stopping you, and try to find someone who you can back-seat dri.. I mean mentor. Read up on Extreme Programming and "pair programming". It might be right for you.
9. Write down estimates of how long it will take to do something and log your progress meticulously. Take a breather now and then to analyze your work logs and estimates. Most people are shocked not by the difference in their estimates and actual times, but in how much time goes into parts of the job they thought were unimportant or minor.
10. I like to hear about people's superpowers and kryptonite-like weaknesses and to help them find ways to break the catch-22's of capitalism. If you have a work ethic and can not only listen to advice but act on it, then write me. I derive extreme satisfaction from working with and knowing these people.
one way to look at it is: The people that hire and sign the paychecks just want to get though the next project. They can either hire three 22-yr old guys that will work for $33,000/yr, or you with wide-ranging experience, good judgement, stability for $99,000. They'll probably figure they'll get more out of the three guys, all frantically flailing around, going down dead ends you would have avoided, working late to recover files you'd never have lost, etc.. It's happened to me and many others. There's some unwritten law that managers figure three guys of IQ = 50 equal one guy IQ = 150. I don't think it works that way.
Carpal tunnel syndrome and small business programming really don't sound a good mix to me. That means little healthcare cover, long hours, being forced to fix stuff because nobody else is there to do it when your writes are bad and the like.
There are lots of not quite programming jobs for folks with screwed wrists to consider that might be wiser but which do involve those dreaded meeting things
- Consultancy
- Review/planning
- Support (high level stuff not phone clone)
Anyone having written a million lines of code over a long time ought to know something about how to write software and more importantly both how not to write it and how to rescue it when it is going pear shaped. Hopefully also how to communicate with other members of the human species as well!
Unlike the US we have a shortage skill people so finding work is not too hard. You will be paid about half what you do in the US but the cost living is a lot cheaper too. We may not be 'the land of the free' but once you leave your lawyers and guns behind I think you will find we have more real freedom here and less stress. Lifes not perfect here but there is a reason they call it's 'gods own', can't think of anywhere else to live long term.
There is a lot of cutting edge development done here, I work for Navman for example. Dispite our our high profile worldwide we are a New Zealand based company and do most of our development in Auckland. We also have development centers in Christchurch and Wellington because of the shortage of engineers in Auckland. Your biggest problem with working here is the local equivalant of the green card system.
I worked as a firmware engineed for 8 years. Fast-paced, I learned a lot, and for a while, I enjoyed it. That time working put me through college, and I consider it the "learning" phase of my life (not that I ever plan to stop learning, but at the moment, it has taken a backseat the to "ready to settle in for a decade or two" phase).
Almost 30, combined salary over $100k, don't know if I want to work as a code-monkey for the rest of my life.
So, I moved "away from it all", found a job at a family-owned mid-sized company, and currently work as one of just a handful of IT people, and love my job. I work about 1/3rd general IT, 1/3rd coding on "real" projects, and 1/3rd on random activities - Enough variation to keep even such mundane tasks as replacing printer toner from getting overly boring. And, even a little time (yeah, I know, I already listed 100%) for truly "personal" projects that just happen to benefit the company, such as open source work on anything even remotely network admin related. And, while once-upon-a-time I couldn't even calculate the distance between me and the CEO (frequent reorganizations and a high turnover rate approaching that of a fast food restaurant didn't help), Now I have only two people between myself and the owner, with whom I can speak freely and casually (rather than having a CEO known only as a name, with an "open door policy", meaning "walk through my office door, and security will open the front door on your way out for the last time").
Do enough such jobs exist for everyone? I'd say not. But quite a few do exist - In the present world, every company, whether IT related or not (I work at a very non-technical manufacturing facility) needs roughly one IT person per 50 or so employees. That means that, even ignoring dedicated software houses, the current job market should theoretically support roughly 2% of the population working in jobs similar to my own.
Will these vanish as the technology improves and gets easier to use? Once upon a time, I would have said "yes, absolutely, my future looks bleak". But now, with a bit more experience with the human side of technology, rather than having a terminal as my primary source of interaction with the world 8 hours a day?
No shot. You simply cannot underestimate the masses of computer users. Job security for life, baby!
Others have said it already in this thread, but I'll repeat that you might be happier leaving your high tech company and doing internal software development for some other kind of estabilshed company, university, or government. You're likely (though not guaranteed!) to work a bit fewer hours, and it's possible to stick around for a while.
The trick will be to make yourself not just a techie in that company. You'll need to learn their business, and after several years your acquired domain knowledge will be extremely valuable to the company. Business knowledge seems to have an inverse relationship to technical knowledge that way--being around a long time accumulates better knowledge, not just out-dated knowledge.
Programming is not a religion A hobby,job,profession,craft,art. But not a religion
Deathmarches, poor project management and PHBs are no more the norm now than they were 30 years ago.
Which is to say "completely so" and it's really kind of depressing, you know?
Consultancy.
Food services have high turn over, as well as apple turnovers, so start practicing the mantra "Do you want fries with that?"
Seriously... there is a systemic problem with IT that the glut of individuals and the desire to outsource give middle/upper management the belief that IT workers are totally expendable. So, if you want to be a lifer, find a company that tends to move slow, have tons of cash, and generally will succeed regardless of crappy market conditions. A) Oil & Gas company, B) Bank. Conversely, get back into academia, as Universities are often cradle to grave type environments.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
The parent coward really knows what (s)he's writing about. I'd only like to add one more thing: Don't rest your hands while you type. Let your arms move around the keyboard. Your elbows can rest on the chair though.
but even then they do have deadlines...
I work for a small (~50 person) online advertising company. We are looking for a senior UNIX engineer. Contact me.
nt
The problem is endemic to the whole of the world, but also provides it's own solution.
The biggest hurdle is whether or not you want to stay in the same geographic location...and I don't mean going outside your own nation.
There are numerous areas that are "sub-metropolitan", non-Silicon Valley/Prairie/Plains, which are trying to develop their own IT culture.
These may or may not one day be industrial giants as Sunnyvale or Redmond, but they exist in much the same way...and with large numbers of non-multinational, local businesses that need immediate development and support infrastructure.
Ranches trying to compete against the international market, for example, need to have the ability to compete with computerized testing and reporting; local manufacturers need to have marketing strategies to compete against foreign competitors by automating and adjusting.
I'm over 40 myself, and I am making a comfortable living doing this type of work, and seeing how an organization or two, built along the lines of the Sears Service Network, are moving into these same "sub-metro" areas, by hiring local talent to be their "eyes and hands" in such venues...and also seeing the frustration that these local businesses have because they don't get the same or consistent quality of services or support.
In point of fact, our business model is doing just that, taking over from these "national" service groups and literally being an 'off-site' IT department, both software and hardware oriented, to aid and assist these businesses.
From there, it is a matter of gathering the people with the needed qualifications, and making sure that each and every one is on track with current and prevailing certifications.
Some of my competitors are single-person independents; some are small corporations with full staffing and support. But all of us are making good business in a "sub-metro" environment and seeing good times for at least the next 15-20 years...or until one of the "national" groups gets the funding to buy us out and make us direct employees.
"Eustace? Eustace? Are you there? Are you there?" = John Leeming
Jack Ganssle just had this interesting piece over at Embedded.com:I D=57702644/
http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?article
As a mid-40's umemployed embedded software developer, I too am at the "fork in the road". Having worked at many companies for the past 23+ years, I've gained alot of different experiences and talents. Yet, they pale in how the industry as a whole has litterally exploded. I quit my last job becaue of: a) commute times; and b) frustration working for a "niche" company that was slowly sinking. So, after some deep soul searching, I decided to "take the fork" and I signed up for Massage Therapy classes. Quite a turn for a "dyed in the wool, 3rd Generation engineer", but companies today are "obsessed" with quarterly earnings and Wall Street Reactions. What's missing is "true" innovation and "vision". It still exists,but because everyone is trying to create "the next big thing", and stumbling aaround in the dark, they loose out on opportunites. Having a good mix of experienced (i.e. older) as well as younger workers is what makes a company strong. We've given this up for the sake of the almighty dollar. Whatever happened for "an honest day's work for an honest day's salary?".
I'm in my late forties but mostly I see 20 sonethings around me. Very few of the people I went to school with are still doing any kind of technical work. Most were pushed out long ago. They tolerate my advancing age because I don't seem old to them. I'm an avid weightlifter and look like a linebacker. I'm also a karate instructor. So the youngins I work with don't perceive me as old.
The first 2 companies I worked for, ITT and RCA, no longer exist. I wrote off the possibility of working until retirement at one company long ago.
Everywhere I work, the engineers/developers are overburdened. Too much work, too little time or both seems to be the norm. I just do my best and hope it's enough. We live on the edge of burnout. Many empoyers don't want an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. They want an honest 1.5+ day's work for an honest day's pay. We got flex time. You can stay as long as you want so long as you're there at 8AM. Yessir. Everybody's a serf now, serfdom USA.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
AFAIK they don't lay off decent programmers. And they sure employ a lot of them...
Of course you have to like rain if you are going to live near Redmond. And the days of them making programmers rich seem to lie in the past.
Lets break it down into the component parts. You want to work for 20 years at a company doing a job that allows progressively better paying work with greater responsibility.
A) The company - How many software companies have been around for 20 years? Few have. Few will survive that far into the future. And the employers know that. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason for them to care about you or the company beyond 5-7 years.
B) A job - The job you have didn't exist 20 yrs ago. Making COTS software is new. Will it last 20 more years? Not in the form you see it now. And not in America, for sure.
C) Progressively better paying - You are a commodity. I understand you have had a succesful career so far. But unless its doing EXACTLY the same thing that your new employer needs, you are one of the many. Supply and demand drives wages. Expect wages for US programmers to rise in a couple years as the business cycle progresses, then fall as globalization increases the supply of programmers in Eastern Europe and Asia.
D) Greater responsibility - Requires you expand your toolset. HR, accounting, LARGE SCALE (enough to justify paying you to manage it) project management, teaching. Most programmers can do these things, some can't.
Finally - WHY? Why is your chosen career so cut throat? Because it's new. Programming isn't new, but small shop commercial development is. If you wanted stability you should have taken shop class. Change, technology and better-than-average salaries are not part of the deal. They ARE the deal.
Frankly, you deserve RSI, you cretinard.
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no.
welcome to c21.
So...you want a pension, a gold watch, and a pat on the back when you turn 65?
Those days went the way of my dinosaur grandfather. There are no retirement benefits. There is no social security. And there certainly are no jobs past your immediate usefulfulness.
If you don't learn to adapt and plan accordingly right now, you'll be screwed when you hit "retirement age".
I do most of my work at one place but the other two have different model keyboards and pointer devices and the desk heights are different; this was on purpose. I usually am at each, each workday.
Since the key heights, spaces, strike forces are different I am not doing the exact same motions all day. Two have mice, the 3rd a touchpad.
It takes a few minutes to adjust to the differences but it beats pain and is certainly cheap enough.
Discovered accidentally but now it's my policy.
Another very useful aspect is being part of a smallish team (in academia). In any given day I am doing a wide variety of tasks; we can't afford much specialization with a 3 person support staff so most days I am doing different things throughout. It messed up my programming productivity though; not many opportunities to be alone with the code for enough hours at a stretch.
Try moving to a real city (NY, San Fran, Chicago, Boston, etc), have a wife (which means wedding and ring) and kids (oh my), stop living like a teenager, buy a house, 401k and roth, couple cars, some decent vacations, some brokerage fun and bamm! you are spending that kind of cash and then a whole lot more. (emphasis mine).
You know what? Nearly everything you describe is a self-imposed expense. You didn't have to get married, you didn't have to raise larvae, buy a house and sink cash into a couple of cars.
I realize that life can sneak up on you a bit, and that sometimes you can wake up to a lifestyle that you never imagined, but I'm also more than a bit sick of hearing people with the "American Dream" lifestyle (suburban house, cars, 2.5 kids, insurance payments, ulcer) bitch and moan about their expenses (as if someone held a gun to their head and told them to breed!)
The American Dream is a choice, and if it's your choice of lifestyle, well, you're going to have to pony up the cash that comes with it. Sorry.
I believe this is an all too common situation. In fact I'm in pretty much the same boat. I spent the first 15 years of my professional life as predominantly a C programmer (try to find that anymore), and a Solaris admin. My problem is that I didn't move more into the java/xml/html world. My skills as a general admin are very good but I don't have any honed specialty skills, like heavy Veritas, OpenView, Oracle. Don't get me wrong, I've worked in all those arenas but never got really deep into it, didn't have too. I kept the bosses happy, kept things running reliably and securely. But my resume lacks the Zing it needs to really noticed....
Now that the DOT bomb company I worked for is gone, along with my management job, I'm stuck in the middle. I need to improve my Oracle skills and move on.
In Summary, you have to keep up on your skills, you have to keep watching for the next wave of technical advancements and hope they are real and not just a flash in the pan.
Good luck!
...you would already be retired.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
This is no flame.
/.ers think tradesmen are slow dayslaves, and that you do get a lot of those on the big sites, but an awful lot of the people are very sharp. Being a good trademan requires a lot of energy and dedication. Project management, client handling, estimates, knowing minutae of changing national, state, and local codes, PHBs, and new techniques and materials and tools. Add a personal desire for craftsmanship and you've got someone who works bloody hard all day and spends all night wondering how to make the project go faster while planning the next, 24/7.
Your description sounds a *lot* like my previous industry: residential construction.
I appreciate many
I changed to keyboard nearly ten years ago and I still find the parallels tight.
What you're describing is typical among good tradesmen at 35-40: your body is giving out and you want to relax a little more.
Those who stay switch to management. They become foremen or contractors. Or switch to trades retail. Or just become some indie with a pickup who gets by doing maintenance jobs; no more heavy lifting and big pushes.
I suggest you think about that. You can't stay exactly where you are because you're competing with people who are energetic just like you used to be.
I'm not offering panacea, I'm pointing out there's a parallel industry that you can take guidance from. The successful guy who stays in the trades finds at this point he shifted to picking up a clipboard more than his toolbelt. Look for the equivalents around you.
Google. Yes, of course we'd love to hire people who are geniuses in their field and hard-working. I have no doubt that we'd also hire people who are extremely experienced.
:)
(Yes, I work at Google.)
Don't judge a company just by the hiring group's ad copy - saying "we hire experienced people" would kick out *all* the college graduates, whereas saying "we hire supremely competent people" should include everyone.
Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
This question is actually very easy to answer. Yes, there are such companies. Any company that treats its employees like a FIFO queue will not be around for very long. Finding, hiring, training, firing, and goto Finding is the most expensive cycle. Once you find, hire and train, you want to keep and train some more, and keep some more, and so on.
You also want to stay away from startups - without making people dream about they will not make it - joining them means you accept this.
So, perhaps you want to look for slightly larger companies, and/or companies that have 'proven themselves' (if there is such a thing...). You could also be smart about picking an employer by industry - don't go for fast-paced and highly competitive fields like software and other technology stuff.
Simpy
Experienced programmers needed.
http://www.mhpcc.edu/general/employ.html
I work for a company of 250 people. We provide a retirement for a state's public employees. I work in the IT department. I don't get paid as well as probably anyone else, but I am compensated decently. I have full control over where I want to take the software. I am a work-a-holic, but I'm really the only one there, all and I stress ALL of my co-workers are there for 8 and then go home. I get some of the best benefits in the country. My health care is 2nd to none, which is good due to the fact that I'm a diabetic.
So yes there are companies but I don't know that you'll find them in a software company you might need to look for a small IT shop inside a service oriented company.
After switching to dvorak and its not helping, I strapped a sharp pencil to each of my arms. I'm not joking. The pencil point would poke me in the back of my hand whenever I forgot to hold my wrists straight. I didn't get dependent on a brace and it took me about a week to make keeping my wrists straight automatic. THAT took care of the carpal.
Moral of the story - keep your wrists flat, your back straight and you're less likely to develop carpal.
Switching to Dvorak did not speed up my typing nor did it cure my carpal. In my case, switching bought me zero benefits and makes working at someone else's keyboard a pain. Dvorak is over-hyped.
stop dreaming about ideal alternatives and hang on to the job you have. you think things are bad now? just wait a few months. i'd be trying to enhance my interpersonal skills and pleasing my superiors to ensure you retain your job if staffing cuts come down.
sorry, try a different planet.
10000 isn't alot in taxes...
10000 is less than 10% of your income. Seriously.
Last Time I checked most people pay between 25%-40% of their income to income taxes and social security...
It sounds like you were just Joe Consumer and spent without ever planning for a rainy day.
------------------------------
Ray Raspberry
raspberry@b3l33t.org
I worked for 7 years at a small business trying to get on its feet. I programmed, was a network admin, and pretty much did near everything necessary to keep the place running. I started at a bank about 8 months ago and I can see this as a long term job. They have a software programming division and network/sys admin. division. As you learn the ropes , if you are good at what you do, there is opportunity to continue moving into management positions where you are not pounding the keyboard as much and they just expect a decent 40 hours a week from you.
You can program a whole second layer of the kinesis keyboards, activated by the keypad switch. By default, the right half of the 'board becomes a numeric keypad when the switch is active.
You can also program any key with an onboard macro.
I activate the second layer with a footswitch. While it is down, individual keystrokes activate macros: HTML macros on my left hand, C/Java macros on my right.
For example, right hand home row middle finger (K on a qwerty keyboard) types this for me:where the asterisk is the position where my insertion point is left , because I include arrow keys in the macro.
The equivalent finger on my left hand, combined with the footswitch, types:I use shift-footswitch-key to indicate "bracket the current selection with this tag", i.e. "cut, type tag pair, cursor back to the middle, paste".
I can barely describe how many keystrokes this system saves me; I almost never have to reach for punctuation and symbol keys when programming. Having the macros in hardware means they continue to work when I switch between Mac, linux, and windows via a KVM switch. It means I can use them equivalently whether I'm in bbedit or using emacs on a client's webserver over SSH.
Since the punctuation is taken care of by macros, I can use the dvorak layout to speed up all my regular typing of words and letters; switching to Dvorak allowed me to learn touchtyping for real (and the Kinesis forces it, because you can't really see the keys well enough to hunt and peck; they're hidden by your hands, and because the shape of the keyboard makes it very hard to hit the keys with the wrong finger.)
The kinesis cured my RSI in college, and has made me infinitely more productive since then. I bang out code as quickly as I can think it, rarely if ever reaching for awkward punctuation keys.
I only wish I'd bought the top model, because I run out of macro memory regularly.
Why people would be willing to pay $1500 for a new computer every two or three years for "speed", but not be willing to shell out a $300 for a keyboard that will increase their productivity while reducing injuries, and will last for five or six years, is beyond me.
Your keyboard, pointing device, and monitors are your user interfaces. They are the parts that can make or break you; compared to their effect on your computing experience, the difference between a four-year-old celeron and an opteron or PPC G5 is pitiful. I am doing development, design, writing, or websurfing fourteen hours a day, every day.
Besides, you can keep your keyboard and monitors between systems: they a long term investment.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
If your buddies (or you) are interested swing by my blog: www.jmagar.com
There's more info there, and link to the corporate website...
www.jmagar.com
-
I'm sorry there is one - The Salvation Army.
...and deathmarches are now common...
Heh. I thought you were talking about the drive to work. One thing I know is that if you don't have to drive every day, you're half way to nirvana.
What?
I am 46 and the second YONGEST out of a dozen programmers at my place of work. We all (except the young bloke) type with two fingers and have no RSI problems whatsoever.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
It's a troll for any conservative that can't tolerate a dissenting point of view. Here's another irony/"troll": The same people calling for freedom for everyone (when it suits their wacky selfish policies) are the ones who want to shut out dissenting views. I fail to see why Iraqis, Iranians, N Koreans deserve freedom more than protesters at the RNC or inauguration.
I myself am a government employee (last I checked you dont have to be Republican to work for the government), so unless the moderators are also federal employees or are REALLY wealthy, the adverse effects of the policies they blindly support will affect them sooner than me. That to me is hilarious and makes this wave of intolerance and pig headedness much more tolerable.
1,000,000 plus lines of code and 30something...I must say VERY impressive.
So you have worked for 18 years (started at 21 and are currently 39). At 5 days per week of coding, EVERY week for 49 weeks per year (vacation and statutory holidays) that works out to an ASTOUNDING output of 227 lines of code per day. Factor in trivial things like design, testing and administration (reporting on what you are doing), your output would far exceed 300 lines of code per day.
Buddy, if you can really produce that much code every single day of your working life, you are a valuable national resource and shouldn't have to worry about such trivialities as retirement.
You're right. Its only by thinking small like you that we can rescue ourselves from having lives.
Would have been great to keep doing what I wanted to do until retirement. Worked as an electronics tech, company filed bankruptcy went out of business, age just over 60, every interview they seemed interested, but many were afraid that they could not afford to pay my "worth". I offered to be a mentor at a "middle wage", no hire. Even contract houses did not want to take me on for even a six months trial. Ended up sitting at a desk monitoring HVAC, fire and security alarms for $10.00 an hour just to keep my head above water until 65 and retire.
... and have been for 30 years, is all I'm saying.
(But, as far as "wery educated Indians" goes, look up who first got certified as CMM level 5. India isn't getting the work they get just because they work cheap.)
You are year behind me in the questions. =)
I am 34. I have been married for 8 years to my wonderful wife, have 3 children and number four is due in 4 months. I have an eclectic skillset that combines database programming, web programming, and network engineering.
Up until one year ago, I was working as a contractor on 6-18 month contracts. In the late 90's, I made a killing as a team leader that helped get dot.coms off the grounds. Over the last 4 years, I watched my pay drop by 25%. I went from 50 hours a week without travel to 50-60 with travel. I rarely saw my family and when I did, I was so exhausted that I was no fun. My life sucked.
Last year, I said enough was enough. My wife and I sat down and did the "worst case scenario" budget. We came up with $76k a year as my minimium salary with no frills. I started looking for a job from $80 and up.
I interviewed with a private university and loved it, but they could not get over $74k. I ended up at a growing regional bank in Atlanta (9th largest bank in the country, I think) with a position that is a true 40 hour a week job.
I do network engineering for projects. I come in at 7 and leave at 4. I get to spend at least 2 hours a night with the kids before bedtime. I am not exhausted anymore and I am much happier.
My final salary ended up being $81k, but it is much better than it sounds. Banks traditionally have awesome benefits. We have Medical, Vision, and Dental at very reasonable prices. Employer pays life and disability. They match 401k at 100% for the first 3% and 50% for the next 2%. They have a pension plan. Free checking and savings. Discounts on home and car loans. It adds up!
If you want out of the rat race, I would suggest looking into Banks, Universities, and Local Government, in that order.
Good Luck!
That's a big hit. Okay, I got Customer X's network running smoothly, but little B and baby E didn't see me that day - and I didn't see them. As a one-off, that's okay. Day-to-day, I don't see my role of father as "leave home before the kids are up, get back after they're in bed; maybe see them for a while on the weekend." That is not parenthood.
A job I was in recently is a good example - a 2h commute each way, and they said, "12h is seen as normal; 16h isn't at all unexpected." Fsck that. 12h + 4h = 16h (8h sleep and back to the job); 16 + 4h leaves me 4h to sleep!
The question is: "Do I live to work, or do I work to live?"
I work to live - my work is interesting enough - could be better. It brings in cash, and supports my *real* life - my family, my kids; if I don't spend time with my wife and kids, then what is the point?! They could live a grand life, in a huge house, driving around in grand cars, but simply fail to recognise their own father. That is not a life for them, or for me.
I have 100% admiration for single parents, but this way of life just gives the family a single-parent-family lifestyle, with a breadwinner who - technically - exists, but who is never seen. What's the point in that?
I'd rather bring in enough cash to keep the family on track, with enough time to actually spend time with them - teaching the kids, and enjoying them. Spending time with my wife is also a priority, of course - after all, that is why I married her - I love her!
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Large corporations, like HP and IBM, have been firing people for years now. IBM is also infamous for raiding its pension program.
So with this in mind, I'd be curious about which US companies you can give as examples of work places that treat their employes as long term assets. Off hand, I can't think of any.
As far as I can see, there is a shortage of jobs, especially jobs that pay well. So currently a company can indeed treat employees like a FIFO. These days you can hire experienced people with almost any skill set. And the view these days is when you no longer need them, just fire them.
It appears that you have different views and experience. I'd like to know where these companies are. Perhaps outside the United States?
And this differs from the norms of government behavior over the last 5,000 yrs...how?
after the first few months, the wrist action gets back to normal- its just more quick, neat and convenient- for both spouses. Hate to disillusion you, sorry!
my wrists started hurting after years of using the computer.
the solutions that helped most were:
1) using a 'spring' keyboard instead of rubber membrane.
2) switch to dvorak (seven years now, and no regrets),
and repogram mouse to avoid double-clicks.
3) practice HANDWRITING, or take up a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
like piano -- this is the single most important thing that
helped alleviate my wrist pains -- i started playing bass guitar,
and by repetitively and rhythmically using those same muscles
in a definite OTHER way --it helped to strengthen them for when
i went back to using them with a mouse. if you're not into
practicing a musical instrument (which i guarantee will be
a useful skill longer than any programming language you
may happen to learn) -- then try handwriting -- it forces
the muscles involved into definite contortions which counter
the repetitive stress of clicking.
best regards,
john.
"About the only places you really need a mouse are games and the web."
And Linux.
Try Adobe. We're always looking for good programmers. You're far from over the hill.
No.
What you consider "living like a teenager" is the way the rest of the world lives.
He has a job. It's amazing how easily humans can rationalize.
Ocean Spray, Land O'Lakes, REI, all of them are co-ops. all the members put in their share, and income distributed based on your contribution / total contributions. I don't know why older programmers don't start their own freelance development co-op. everyone could work on their own schedules, and you would probably be very cost-competitive (no fixed salaries). Instead of hourly wages, you would be paid based on code contributed (or something more complex).
As an artist who has been living without a fixed salary for seven years, I don't miss it one bit.
You've developed 8 products from scratch. You want to settle down someplace and have a family. You want to mentor younger people eventually. Have you considered starting a family business?
...you're talking about Microsoft.
It's expected. You're a programmer, put in the hours, then! Oh, you won't? Well, we'll replace you with someone who is more passionate about software development than you are. Someone who will put in 60-hour weeks...for starters, that is.
Welcome to the post-dot-com era.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
think about it -- medical research likely to be less time intensive and demanding also a very interesting place to apply your years of experience. A smart company (I know such a thing may not exist) will look past your lack of specific biology experience.
But as we have seen, XML has been beaten to death and used where it is not needed.
Drives me nuts at times. Nothing like a closes app constantly yapping. Eating bandwidth with plain text and sucking CPU cycles unwrapping the XML.
Pet Peeves. Everyone has many. But never admits to it.
Been doing software for 25 years, 2 kids (teenagers) and married for 17 years. Every day on the job sucks more than the last. Get out NOW while you still can! Do something else. ANYTHING ELSE..... Who hell could have known that working with technology that Mr Spock would have envied could be so drab and pedestrian after the MBA's got through with it. Man I hate business....... We need a good alien invasion (as in Alpha Centauri, not Mexico and India) to make people appreciate us again.....
I just started there and so far they ask a lot Mon-Fri and F off on the weekends. They are respectful of the life/work balance and you get a lot of little perks (like 33 paid days off a year total). Forget what the Defcon crowd says too, there are some *very* smart ppl working there.
Oh yeah, and one other thing I forgot to mention. For some reason no one I know has ever heard of this, even some tax preparers.
If you are single, make under $25,000, and weren't a full-time student 5 or more months out of the year, you can get a tax credit (not a deduction) for contributing to a retirement account, even a Roth IRA. The credit will also be on top of any traditional IRA deduction you got. It's called the Retirement Savings Contributions Credit. The IRS has information on it here and the form (8880) is here.
Hopefully this will save some slashdotter some money. Check it out. I was able to take it last year, since I graduated in February and took a few months off before starting work so I didn't go over the income limit.
According to my orthopedist (whose specialty is the hand) friend, the latest studies show that keyboard use is actually protective against carpal tunnel syndrome.
I've performed some boring tasks, but the good has greatly outweighed the not-so-good, and the three companies I've put my previous 20 years into have all seemed to value employees with full lives.
Other than a couple of years with Sears, and a summer swabbing toliets, all of my working life has directly or indirectly helped to give the American warfighter the edge. If you're not comfortable with that line of work, either laugh it off (I don't kill anybody, the guys and girls down in the proximity fuze group, they kill 'em), or work for someone else.
BTW, defense work ain't all Republican$ or Dubya supporters by a long shot. We're all adults here, and most can see beyond the idiot du joir.
Luke, help me take this mask off
I read an article about engineers and at what age their salary topped out. I wish I'd remember exactly where and when I read this, but I don't. The article however stated that the salary topped out for regular engineers at the age of 50, but for software engineers the equivalent age was 35.
I believe the reason for this to be that the software field is changing so rapidly, what you learn as a new technology today may not be that hot five years later.
I seriously believe that you can continue to be a great programmer toward your 50's since you have gained lot of experience that younger programmers lack. However, I remember that in my 20's I could easily stay up coding 48 hours straight, I can't do that anymore. On the other hand I'm more organized and experienced now, so I still write software faster and produce more.
In my current job I now manage a group of younger engineers. I still write software, but my main responsibilities are to ensure that projects stay on track, design software architecture, provide feedback, code review, and mentoring. This is something that I could stick to for quite a while, however I focus and spend time reading to stay abreast of new technologies. You can't stop because the rest of the world will just leave you behind.
There are places in the valley that give people the freedom to work however they want. Where I am currently, we have a very broad mix.
A lot of folks (myself included) tend to get in late and work late. Quite a few others work 9-5.
I've heard people (especially managers) say "go home, enjoy the weekend", or "isn't your wife expecting you?" quite often. Only once or twice have I heard them push to get a specific piece done in a big hurry (usually with very good reason). People do it, but because they choose to.
Of course, the company really does require self-motivated employees. Nobody ever really seems to take advantage of the system. Many places I've contracted would fall apart with a system like this.
The other thing I like is that they have both Management, and Technical advancement tracks that are fully equivalent in terms of company rank and pay. An engineer is NOT forced to go into management to advance, instead they become increasingly responsible for architectural decisions (if promoted). The engineer picks the track they are interested on their own.
plus-good, double-plus-good
Programming using the standard Dvorak layout can be a pain, but its easy to fix that problem by tweaking the layout. Right now Im using a custom Dvorak layout in both XFree86 and Windows 2000, which uses the standard Dvorak positions for letters, and the standard UK layout positions for punctuation.
For windows you will need this free tool.
If you have done that many commercial programs from original concept to successful deployment then why on earth do you call yourself just "a programmer". You obviously function at an architect/design/creative level beyond that. So consider a few things:
1) if you have a great idea or two start a company;
2) upgrade your title and self-image. Ask for and expect more accordingly;
3) do a product or two that will make it at least as shareware and get an independent name for yourself;
4) come up with a good hosted app for (1) or (3) and spin it out onto the Web. Get financing to grow it out;
5) do some consulting. you have the chops. Use the $$$ to finance (1) or (2) or (3) and/or more education/training or just more time off.
Blindy opposing policies does not make you any less pig headed and intolerant.
One thing I know is that if you don't have to drive every day, you're half way to nirvana.
I'll second that. I've been a full-time telecommuter since 1998. Working at home is great!
Now, if the projects were a bit more fun and exciting, I'd be about 3/4 of the way to nirvana. It isn't in my nature to completely happy.
appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars
I rode the bubble in Silicon Valley through the late 90's, as a 20-something programmer; I'm in the same boat as the 30-something programmer that this was posted about, and I found a lovely small company (less than 20 employees) out in the DC metro area that's stable, been in business forever, and whose staff is made up of people between 30...50. Find a small company that puts emphasis on people skills, being able to "play well with others", as well as having geek skillz, and you're set.
:)
Or go work for a defense contractor, they hire anyone who they can bill for, regardless of skill...
and for the overwhelming majority of companies, the answer is "no".
I've worked at a number of companies in my two-dozen year career (more than I really wanted to), and
1) hardly *any* of them believed in training
2) at my first job, without even an AA, I was
hired as a "sr. p/a". When I asked my friend
who'd helped me get the job why I wasn't a
junior p/a, he told me that the college had
eliminated those positions several years
earlier, because they were eligible to
join the union.
Since then, about 75% of the companies I've
worked for have used "whatever it takes"
quite happily...and that's happened more
and more in the last 10 years.
I should say "when I am working", since I've been unemployed almost the entire Bush Depression (the longest job I've had was a bit over 4 mos. last year, and business got bad, and LIFO, y'know).
Right now I'm looking around the country, and have been for months. Let me know if you find a company that can use a good, experienced person....
mark
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Life is too short. You only have 120 years!s html
http://tom.gilki.org/about/thoughts/012105/index.
Humans are like weebles. We wobble but we don't fall down. You say that your present sucks, and you want to ensure a better future (which will eventually be your present). With everything you know and believe, you can't achieve a better future doing what you have been doing. You will find a solution at the point of failure. When you are at the end of your rope, when you feel like suicide is the answer, something will come along and your life will be better than it was before. Either make a change now, or wait until you reach the edge. Something will come through. It always does - if you're alive.
.. if its to a Dvorak layout, or just simply another keyboard.
... I've had my binges of CT though, I know what works for me ..
The point is: Carpal Tunnel Symptoms? Change your environment.
Just keep doing that - to Dvorak or whatever - and you'll avoid CT.
20 years, programming professional, and still going strong
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
A small minority of them screw people, otherwise everything would be FUBAR-ed long time ago. Most of the folks try to do what's right and are enjoying their work, believe it or not.
Don't have kids. They're expensive.
for guys over 50:
1. never pass up an opportunity to take a leak.
2. never trust a fart.
3. never let a hard-on got to waste, even if you're alone;-}
Think of it this way. Why would many Americans buy groceries from "loyal" mom and pop stores when they could easily get bargain groceries at WalMart?
Everyone wants a bargain, firms and consumers.
I don't want to become management. Ever! My skills are all technical and machine oriented. I want to use them. I don't want to be forced into being a poor manager just because I'm "senior".
What is the future of a long term techie? None.
Why? Because all managers believe that managers are inherently superior and thing that anyone refusing to join management is a retard.
I don't intend to give in though, so Nyah! Nyah! to all you management types!
I m just 2+ years old in IT industry and i m in India..working for a worldwide IT giant.
I like programming and want to stay technical all my life(dont like managerial stuff), but my peers n my managers somehow feel i m good at communicating, leadin ppl and preparing docs too(which i dont agree with, or maybe they dont have any other option in my team right now), and hence they have thrusted upon me the responsibility of leading my team(its a small team, 4-6 ppl), so i m doin both the things, developing software as well as leading team which involves preparing business docs and lot of other paper and tracking work which i just dont like..give me a developer guide to write, i will happily write but not a business estimation doc or some similar crap...
How do ppl handle or cope with such kind of situations where you given some additional responsibilites which you dont enjoy...?
p.s - in India, if u just want to stay at coding and designing, you cant stay at that, you have to move up the chain or you are forever stuck at that.. so i cant just go ahead and disuss with my manager and say "NO" but i feel that this is happening too fast to me..i want to enjoy purely coding and designing atleast for first 4-5 years of my career(and get strong hold on some technology) and then move into lead kind of role...
Any suggestions???
Sometimes, the tools are out there, saving you ages of time, but the customer insists on manual coding.
In my case, a number of years ago, COBOL was very popular and profitable. There were tools called 4GLs that would allow for rather flexible dialogue handling and report generation. Take a database, extract data (easy if the database was normalized, a nightmare if it was not) and produce a report in something like Access - instead of spending sometimes weeks to do the same in COBOL. The tools paid for themselves in weeks. The customers, however, wanted COBOL.
And I wanted a job that wasn't an insult to my intelligence...
Have you considered training (as a trainer)? Consulting ? High-level support ? Any soft skills to go with it ? Or are you willing to change to a career in management ? This involves working with a very unreliable and buggy rapid prototyping tool called hooman. Paid for by the month, reasonable user interface (often !), but you have to run a bunch of them at the same time, coordinate the stuff they do and make sure you can afford a number of instances. However, they are almost impossible to debug and often display non-ädeterministic behaviour...
The IEEE has good stats on the average working life of a programmer. IIRC, by those stats you are near the end of your programming career.
I managed to stay a programmer until my 49th birthday. Yep, I was laid off on my 49th birthday. The company bought an Indian software development house and fired all the technical staff in the US.
It was hard to stay a programmer for that long. And, the truth is that I had to move into management a few times and in my last job I was listed as some sort of researcher, visionary, or what not. The only one in the company. But, I still was able to do some programming that went into products.
Since then, well, I was able to get a few software testing jobs and now I live off of my wife and write open source software.
In the few job interviews I have had in the last 3 years the interview ends as soon as they see the gray hair and wrinkles. No one is interested in hiring someone over 50 for any job, technical or managerial. It isn't salary expectations either, I have offered to work for minimum wage for the first 6 months and then to work for a junior engineers salary. No takers.
Stonewolf
My wrists were starting to get painful for me, but I eventually moved to desks where my whole arms (to the elbo) rest on the desk and the monitor is pushed far back. 15 years of programming and no pain for the 8 years using lots of desk space.
The jobs are certainly out there. But then again, you answer your own question. If you've started and finished so many projects, what keeps you on after the project is over?
My father has worked at the same place [well, not the same physical location, and the same name isn't always on the check, but the system he's worked on has been the same] for nearly 30 years now. This company isn't a 'produce and ship' company, and certainly not a company running at silicon valley speed. They have a business that doesn't change, which computers help with. Since things don't really change, it's hard for anyone to be outdated.
Dude, use loops.
Actually it is still possible to get very good pay (and maybe even megabucks). My company is in a great location, the work is interesting (we don't use the latest fad technology but we do do some very sophisticated stuff), the average age is about 35, reasonable (40-50 hour) work schedule, great benefits, etc. etc. And we pay significantly above the average. There are places that value experience and skill and also provide a decent lifestyle and good pay. They are just fairly rare. http://www.predict.com/
Look into venues other than development for development's sake. A large (and growing) sector that wants and needs long-term stable employees is Health Care. You'll give up much of the cutting edge work, but your legacy skills will carry you far, and you'll gain in reasonable work hours, flexibility and stability.
I've never, ever been able to touch-type while writing code. It just never felt right. I do type when I am writing text, such as an e-mail, a document, or this post. Anyone else?
Anonymous Cowards suck.
1,000,000 lines of code.
And you're "30 something"?
Let's see, assuming you started your commercial programming at age 20 and you're just on the verge of turning 40, that's 20 years or 50,000 lines of code per year.
Of course, we need to thrown in all the documentation you've written for all that code.
It is no wonder you've got CTS.
I've counted lines of code over the years and I suspect that I might have made it into the million line club, so I'm not suggesting that you're lying about this, but whenever I hear someone (particularly in their 30s) bragging about membership in the million line club, my first thought is "B.S." or "I'm glad I don't have to maintain that code, it's probably mostly of the 'cut & paste' variety" (and I freely admit that some of my most 'productive' years in terms of KLOC were achieved by cutting and pasting a fair volume of code).
As you said, be real happy you've got a decent job these days. And if DVORAK isn't in the cards, at least start using an ergonomic keyboard (e.g., MS Natural). It worked wonders for me.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde