### You claim the Wii is a gimmick because it can't play hardcore games.
The issue isn't that it can't play them, it is that there are almost none in that direction in development and there isn't anything where the control are so superior that you forget the lack of graphics. I mean, just look at the Wii from the perspective of a "hardcore gamer", what do you see? PS2 remakes, sequels to Nintendo classics, Disaster, No More Heroes and a whole bunch of uninteresting mini/party games. And even Disaster and No More Heroes don't look so hot that I would buy a console for them.
You can claim all day that developers are jumping on the Wii bandwagon, truth however is there is so far absolutely no indication at all that any 'hardcore' games will be the result of that, instead we see Project Hammer getting canceled and developers doing one cute game after another. Nothing new in the 'hardcore' area. You also underestimate the amount of XBox360 and PS3 in the wild, those are more then Wiis, quite a bit more, and there is little evidence that the Wii will ever catch up to them both combined. Remember many next-gen titles get created for both XBox360 and PS3, so their combined market share is still quite a bitch larger then that of the Wii.
Anyway, for me the Wii simply is a lost cause in the "hardcore" sector, no developer shows any real interest in that direction and unless I see some actual games or even game announcement all the bandwagon jumping rumors in the world won't change my mind.
### Lots of games evoke emotions via gameplay itself.
True, but the set of emotions that they invoke is quite a different one then a movie can do. Joy and frustration are easily accomplished in gameplay and can get more powerful then anything you get out of a book or movie, but have you ever grieved because your game character died? Normally you just hit "Retry" and continue as usual.
### The life of the protaganist is directly in your hands, something books and movies cannot do.
Right, but that actually doesn't evoke emotions, since savegames, continues and all that stuff make your character invulnerable, there is no final death, you just retry once more. What evokes the emotion isn't the character, but your success or failure in the game.
This has everything to do with gameplay and graphics style and nothing with the technical capabilities of the hardware. Look at Zelda:WW on how to get it right (almost, had some pretty annoying parts to), Zelda:TP on the other side got it pretty wrong, even so the graphics where better, it was still mostly the same as OoT and thus uninteresting.
### Geeze, consider Tetris! How simple a game is that! Are you going to tell me it's not a full game??
You miss the point. The issue is that the Wii doesn't have any titles that demonstrate how the Wiimote can be used for the classic "hardcore" games (i.e. what Mario64 was for the analog-stick/C-buttons). Wii Sports might be a good demo for the Wiimote, but due to its simplicity not applicable to more "hardcore" titles.
### Casual games ARE real games.
There is nothing wrong with casual titles, there is however a lot of stuff wrong with a console that doesn't offer anything else.
### But if you need more 'proof', go check out Resident Evil 4 for the Wii.
I played it already on the Cube, what do I need a Wii for that?
### a promise of good things to come.
The PS3 has a heap load of interesting titles announced, full with gameplay footage and stuff. On the Wii there is far less interesting stuff in the pipe.
### But notice they're buying the Wii instead of the PS3, and they're doing it because they like what the Wii is promising.
$600 vs $250 has a lot to do with that. The PS2 wouldn't have sold at $600 either and I doubt that it would have reached the 100mil mark by limiting itself to casual titles.
### The Wii was NOT designed for those games.
Yes, thats my point. The PS2 was successful because it offered a wide variety of games, everything from eyeToy, to Singstar, to GuitarHero, old 2D arcade fighters, realistic racing games and just all that other stuff. There is almost no genre that you don't have on the PS2. The Wii on the other side is a very limited machine, if the controller will ever work with "hardcore" games is doubtful, even more that it will be good enough so that you don't mind the outdated graphics, online experience is lacking a lot and the game offering isn't exactly perfect either.
### The original argument was if it is a gimmick, and I still maintain that time will tell.
I'd say that time already told it. It just takes a while till the market will realize it and PS3/XBox360 hit a mass-market price range.
### However, there are upcoming titles that people seem to conveniently forget, such as Endless Ocean.
Which is a sequel to a sequel of a PS2 game called EverBlue, its still one of the more interesting games on the Wii, but not exactly of system-seller quality.
What happens if my games allows only two interactions, 'previous page' and 'next page' and while doing so it is showing some writing of Shakespeare? Is Shakespeare displayed on a TV (in text form) less art then printed on paper? Is there even a difference? Now, true, most games allow some more interaction then 'previous/next page', but many are really not that far away. Many games don't have much freedom, the story they present is predefined and linear, the only real difference is that the 'next page' trigger is a little harder to reach, hidden in some piece of action sequence or NPC dialog or whatever, that however doesn't really change the story they tell. A game simply can express the same stuff as a movie or a book, since when the interaction is striped down, its really almost the same thing.
However, there is a worthy point to discuss left: When a game gets closer to a movie by using cutscenes, it can be art like a movie. And a game that relies heavily on text dialog can get very close to a book and so be art like a book. But what about the actual gameplay itself? Most games that evoke emotions do so by using non-interactive cutscenes, not gameplay. Can a game evoke emotions in via gameplay itself? I think the answer would be 'yes', but there are only very few games around that ever tried that, let alone succeeded at it in the same way a non-interactive book, movie or cutscene can.
A game announcement on the other side should be doable quite easily, but that hasn't happened either.
### Not a full game? By what measure?
Number of objects to interact with, which in the Wii Sports is one. There simply is only one thing to do in the game and that is way to little for a show case on how to develop real games on the Wii, where you might have dozens of objects on the screen (enemies, allies, doors, buttons, multiple weapons, etc.). How do I control all those at the same time with 'motion control'?
### Wii Sports is probably the most played title on the Wii. I'd say that proves a lot.
It proves that there is a market for casual gamer titles and has little to no value on how to do 'real' games with the Wiimote.
### And yet even with all of those limitations, people are still buying it up left and right.
They buy it for the hype, not for the (non-existent) wide selection of good games.
### Both are odd ducks in the current generation. Both require a learning curve and a new way of thinking.
As said, a Cell that isn't used fully used doesn't do harm, a controller on the other side that can't handle the games people have been playing for the last decade is quite a more problematic.
### As someone who's grown up around these Nintendo franchises I don't understand how people who claim to be long time fans can be disappointed in the Wii or the latest versions of their old favorites.
NES, SNES, N64 or even the Gamecube had a lot of games beside Mario, Zelda and Metroid. StarFox, Pikmin, PilotWings, Waverace, YoshisIsland and all that stuff, it never was just about Mario/Zelda/Metroid alone. On the Wii however there really isn't much interesting happening beside Mario/Zelda/Metroid so 'purists' end up disliking it, since there is to much recycling and to little innovation. And even the classics look kind of stale Prime3 looks the same as Prime1, Zelda:TP felt more like a OoT mission disc then a new experience and MarioGalaxy also looks rather similar to previous titles.
### We've already gotten Zelda and Paper Mario games and Mario, Metroid, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Fire Emblem and more are on the way.
All of those are sequels, many don't even look all that different from their predecessors. What is missing are the completly new non-casual-gamer-only franchises, stuff like StarFox, StuntRaceFX, WaveRace, Pikmin and friends. There simply isn't anything of similar quality around on the Wii or even announced.
Developers get their fingers on the hardware quite a while before the actual release and the lack of decent game support was also already visible before release.
### The people have spoken, and developers were quick to sit up and pledge their support when the Wii took off unexpectedly.
Thats a very favorite myth, but where are the resulting games? Or even the game announcements? Nothing to be seen so far, all the big titles continue to be in development for PS3 and XBox360 and the Wii might get a few casual titles here and there.
### That will take time as games trickle out: some will work and some won't, but eventually new genres will open and expand outwards.
The mini-games/casual-gamer-games genre is expanding very well. In terms of 'normal' games (those with story and stuff) there is happening close to nothing on the Wii and those few games that are there could be done with a normal controller just as well (Zelda, PaperMario, etc.), kind of understandable since both were originally developed for Gamecube.
### But for the love of god, STOP using the "no games out now" arguments. Wii Sports is an excellent proof of concept.
Wii Sports is not a full game and therefore a pretty bad proof of concept, since it doesn't actually proof much. In real games you normally have a few more action then just a single "throw a bowling ball" one and that is where the real trouble starts. As long as its clear that the player is going to throw a bowling ball the developer can make a whole bunch of assumptions, since its already clear from the start how the resulting action will look, the hard part is figuring out which action to do when you don't know it beforehand. And where it gets close to impossible is trying to figuring that out without delay.
### No, it was necessary for them to make motion-sensing the cornerstone of the console.
The problem isn't that the Wii comes directly with the Wiimote, but that it has nothing else going for it: online play is close to non existent, graphics power is five years behind everybody else, games are lacking and so on.
### So I guess that makes the Cell gimmicky, too.
The Cell isn't a gimmick, it is an implementation detail, something no user has ever have to care about. A controller is however the thing which the user will touch and use on a daily basis, very different thing.
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### These things take time.
Time that Nintendo should have spend *before* releasing it, a year after and they still don't really know what to do with it just isn't acceptable.
### Do you level a similar criticism at the PS3 because nobody is using all 9 cores to their fullest yet?
Graphics are far less important then controls. If graphics aren't up to full, thats not really a big issue, on the other side if the controls suck, the whole game is ruined.
### The simple fact is that the Wii took all of the major game publishers by surprise.
It didn't took Nintendo by surprise and even they don't really have much an idea what they are doing.
### We don't know what the Wii is capable of yet.
The specs are out, the controller can be used by an PC with Bluetooth, so there really are no secrets left and the sad truth is that the controller just isn't up to what some people have hoped for (no sensing of position in 3D space).
Just look back at history to see how it should be done: Mario64, that game looked like the controller was build for it and visa verse. It was released on day one together with the console and controller. There was no waiting for the day when they figured out how to use an analog stick, instead the analog-stick itself was build around the problem of navigating a 3D game. The Wiimote on the other side looks like a solution searching for a problem.
It already is, they are making money on each and every Wii sold, quite a bit I guess, considering that the Gamecube is selling for $150 less then the Wii. For Nintendo its really a Win/Win situation, if people stop buying Wiis tomorrow, they still have made money with it, if they don't, they will just make more and more money. If the Wii on the other side will actually bring anything interesting for the hardcore market we have to wait and see, so far there really isn't much on the radar.
Re:Lots of sour grapes going around in game writin
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### Trying to win a 3-way graphics battle is a losing proposition
Might be, but completly giving up the fight can't be the right way either. Wii games already look old and that will only get worse with time. The issue isn't even that the Wii looks bad compared to PS3/XBox360, its that its struggling to even keep up with PS2/XBox/Gamecube.
### How about instead of increasing the number of pixel shaders
The Wii has exactly 0 of them, welcome in the technological stone age...
The thing I miss the most in the Wii however are not its graphical capabilities, but games that show that the controls are actually good for something. Sure, there is Wii Sports, but that is a rather limited game, you basically just have one motion in each sport, so it doesn't work much as a show case for general games. Looking forward to games like Mario and Metroid you will notice that Mario lacks camera control and Metroid makes use of minus as well as the 1 and 2 buttons, neither of them in a comfortable position to reach during gameplay. I get the feeling that Nintendo never designed the controller with real games in mind, which isn't exactly a good thing. And well, their 'big' E3 announcement Wii Fit didn't even use the Wiimote to begin with, not a good sign either.
### The motion sensitive games are VERY addictive.
Just because it works for one game, consisting of 3 second long mini-games, doesn't mean it works for everything.
### The games will follow, just give it time.
I have heard that now for a whole year, yet there are still no interesting games on the horizon and given how limited the motion sensing in the Wiimote is I doubt that there will ever be any. The idea of motion sensing is a nice one, making it however the only thing the console has going for it is a pretty stupid move, it sure works business wise, but in terms of interesting games very little has happened.
Re:seems like I've heard this somewhere before
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### I keep reading all these Wii stories about how Nintendo is abandoning the "hardcore gamer"
There you go: Hardcore Gamer A hardcore gamer is simply one who considers games his hobby and not a time waster.
### same ones who were bashing Lucas over the newer Star Wars trilogy.
Well, the new trilogy was pretty awful, can't really blame people for bashing it.
### Just like the same people who knock the Wii for nothing but Zelda/Mario/Metroid games can't wait for Halo3/MSG4/GTA4/Maddenadinfinitum.
Easy to say when you don't have a clue. There are also *tons* of brand new IPs on PS3 and XBox360, HeavyRain, HeavenlySwords, BioShock, MassEffect, LittleBigPlanet, AssassinsCreed and a ton of more stuff. While on the Wii you really don't have much, Disaster, No More Heroes and little else that would be interesting for the "hardcore". The only area where the Wii is breaking new ground is in the casual market (Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc.), but thats not something that you can get people very excited with that have played games already for a decade or two.
The error is to assume that Mario, Metroid and Zelda would be enough for gamers. Most gamers like to have new games every once in a while, instead of the same classics over and over again that they already played for 20 years. Nintendo had only two original IPs on the Wii, Disaster: Day of Crisis and Project Hammer, Hammer is now canceled, leaving just *one* new game for the "hardcore" audience, that just isn't enough, not even close.
### The game-play got more difficult as you progressed
And more difficult for most part meant 'faster'. Sorry, but some of us are actually happy that we don't have to run through the same Pacman maze over and over again at ever increasing speeds. I like that Level 2 looks different then Level 1 and I also like when there is a bit of strategy involved instead of just quick reactions. I also like when games have a conclusion instead of just a game over screen. I never was a fan of simple arcade games and I doubt that I will ever will, but then I grew up on a C64, not in the arcade.
You might be able to design an extra simplistic game that works with the Zapper. But way should you when you could use the whole 'power' of the Wiimote and the Nunchuk instead? The Wiimote already lacks buttons as it is, just look at Metroid which even makes use of the nearly unreachable 1 and 2 buttons, using the zapper just would be even more restrictive. Just look at the current FPS line-up, I don't think the Zapper would work with any of that.
### You mean like Final Fantasy 1 - 13, Halo 1 - 3,
Final Fantasy is each time a completly new game, same or similar game mechanics sure, but new characters, new worlds, story and all that stuff. Halo has a continuous story line. With GTA I might agree, there has been quite a bit of milking going on, but then GTAIV seems to have some variation is the setting and not just another SanAndreas.
### That is your idea of "hardcore" that is somehow superior to what Nintendo is doing?
Yes, because it doesn't end with FF and GTA, the other consoles also have Bioshock, AssassinsCreed, Alan Wake, HeavenlySword, Gears of War, Little Big Planet, Echochrome and all that completly new and innovative stuff.
### Also, your argument is VERY inconsistent. You dismiss Wii Sports, Wii Play, Nintendogs stuff because it isn't hardcore
I dismiss them because they are extremely simplistic and predictable games.
### but you previously rail on the lack off innovative hardcore games like...Yoshi's Island?!?!
Hardcore has nothing to do with how much blood a game has, Yoshis Island was full of brilliant level design and fresh ideas, in fact I consider it the best 2D jump'n run to date (closely followed by MarioBros3). It is that spark of brilliance that I miss a lot in Nintedo games lately.
### People who are engaged in their life and successful do not have TIME to be "hardcore gamers".
So just because you don't have the time everybody shall go play super simplistic games that get boring after half an hour? Next you suggest we should get to make good movies and instead settle with soup operas, since they are so much more accessible...
This is just the games section of slashdot, why shouldn't it be used for E3 news, even plenty of them? Its not like there is much else to report in these days.
The Zapper doesn't add any buttons, its just a plastic shell, which due to its layout makes most buttons unreachable and the nunchuks accelerometer unusable. Its basically useless for FPS and only suited for simple lightgun shooter specifically designed for it.
Old fans are not always pleased with old games and old gameplay, some actually want some innovation. That sad, MarioGalaxy looks great, MetroidPrime looks to much like the GC counter parts and I already didn't like those, prefer classic 2D Metroid much more.
The irony here is that once up on a time Mario Kart was hardcore, it not only was a rather though game, it was also one of the first console racers to ever be 3D, allowing you to make 180 turns and stuff like that, while other games had you race in front of a 2D background allowing you only left/right steering and acceleration (Top Gear, Outrun, etc.). Mario Kart also had advanced stuff like ghosts racers for time trial.
But as with many franchises, the rest of the world moved on, while Nintendo kind of got stuck ten years ago. There really hasn't been any real news in MarioKart since MarioKart64 and I still consider the original SNES one to be the best of them all. That of course doesn't mean that MarioKart should turn into a Forza, but it certainly would help if Nintendo had anything to offer beside MarioKart that could keep up with Forza and GT.
### I am convinced that it is the 2nd and 3rd generation of Wii titles that will ultimately define the Wii.
I kind of doubt that there will be any larger change in the games that will be available for the Wii. Third parties are starting Wii development, but they are starting mini/puzzle/cartoon and whatever kind of games, they are not doing the AssassinsCreeds and BioShocks. It just wouldn't make sense to produce that kind of games for a market that is buying the console for a completly different set of games today. It also doesn't make sense because the PS3/XBox360 offer a larger market share if they do multiplatform development, simply porting to the Wii doesn't work either, since the underlying engines just won't be practical on the Wii. So I don't really see where any other kind of game should be coming from, there really is nothing announced that would move away from the current casual gamer trend, quite the opposite, Wii Fit is securing that niche even more.
### I define a hardcore game as a game targeted to the age 14-35 male demographic (approximately), and a casual game as targeted to the 6-65 male/female demographic.
I wouldn't pin down hardcore or non-hardcore on the age demographic, that would be to simplistic. Instead I would pin it down on a games complexity, not just the amount of buttons it needs, but also how many ways there are to interact with the game world and stuff like that. Something like Falcon4.0 is certainly very hardcore, since it simulates a complicated vehicle, but things like SuperMarioBros are also still rather hardcore, even so they have a relativly simplistic core, since there are quite a few things you need to know to master the game (warp zones and stuff) and even if you mastered it, there are still crazy speed runs you can attempt, wall-jumps and other really weird stuff.
With a thing like Nintendogs on the other side you have seen virtually everything the game ever has to offer in the first 10 minutes, same with BrainAge or Wii Sports. The difficulty might rise over time, but the game doesn't really offer anything new over time, its stays the same. And with something like Zelda:TP you have a game that might seem hardcore on a first look, but doesn't really offer anything new, if you have played previous Zeldas you know what to expect, there are no real surprises, no twists, etc. On top of that its also so incredible easy that you can just sleepwalk your way through the game, you don't need to learn boss tactics as in previous Zeldas, instead you easily finish most of them on the first try. So I'll ditch it into the software category, since all that nice design issue is basically lost in repeated and way to easy gameplay.
Slashdot Mirror
### You claim the Wii is a gimmick because it can't play hardcore games.
The issue isn't that it can't play them, it is that there are almost none in that direction in development and there isn't anything where the control are so superior that you forget the lack of graphics. I mean, just look at the Wii from the perspective of a "hardcore gamer", what do you see? PS2 remakes, sequels to Nintendo classics, Disaster, No More Heroes and a whole bunch of uninteresting mini/party games. And even Disaster and No More Heroes don't look so hot that I would buy a console for them.
You can claim all day that developers are jumping on the Wii bandwagon, truth however is there is so far absolutely no indication at all that any 'hardcore' games will be the result of that, instead we see Project Hammer getting canceled and developers doing one cute game after another. Nothing new in the 'hardcore' area. You also underestimate the amount of XBox360 and PS3 in the wild, those are more then Wiis, quite a bit more, and there is little evidence that the Wii will ever catch up to them both combined. Remember many next-gen titles get created for both XBox360 and PS3, so their combined market share is still quite a bitch larger then that of the Wii.
Anyway, for me the Wii simply is a lost cause in the "hardcore" sector, no developer shows any real interest in that direction and unless I see some actual games or even game announcement all the bandwagon jumping rumors in the world won't change my mind.
### Lots of games evoke emotions via gameplay itself.
True, but the set of emotions that they invoke is quite a different one then a movie can do. Joy and frustration are easily accomplished in gameplay and can get more powerful then anything you get out of a book or movie, but have you ever grieved because your game character died? Normally you just hit "Retry" and continue as usual.
### The life of the protaganist is directly in your hands, something books and movies cannot do.
Right, but that actually doesn't evoke emotions, since savegames, continues and all that stuff make your character invulnerable, there is no final death, you just retry once more. What evokes the emotion isn't the character, but your success or failure in the game.
This has everything to do with gameplay and graphics style and nothing with the technical capabilities of the hardware. Look at Zelda:WW on how to get it right (almost, had some pretty annoying parts to), Zelda:TP on the other side got it pretty wrong, even so the graphics where better, it was still mostly the same as OoT and thus uninteresting.
### Geeze, consider Tetris! How simple a game is that! Are you going to tell me it's not a full game??
You miss the point. The issue is that the Wii doesn't have any titles that demonstrate how the Wiimote can be used for the classic "hardcore" games (i.e. what Mario64 was for the analog-stick/C-buttons). Wii Sports might be a good demo for the Wiimote, but due to its simplicity not applicable to more "hardcore" titles.
### Casual games ARE real games.
There is nothing wrong with casual titles, there is however a lot of stuff wrong with a console that doesn't offer anything else.
### But if you need more 'proof', go check out Resident Evil 4 for the Wii.
I played it already on the Cube, what do I need a Wii for that?
### a promise of good things to come.
The PS3 has a heap load of interesting titles announced, full with gameplay footage and stuff. On the Wii there is far less interesting stuff in the pipe.
### But notice they're buying the Wii instead of the PS3, and they're doing it because they like what the Wii is promising.
$600 vs $250 has a lot to do with that. The PS2 wouldn't have sold at $600 either and I doubt that it would have reached the 100mil mark by limiting itself to casual titles.
### The Wii was NOT designed for those games.
Yes, thats my point. The PS2 was successful because it offered a wide variety of games, everything from eyeToy, to Singstar, to GuitarHero, old 2D arcade fighters, realistic racing games and just all that other stuff. There is almost no genre that you don't have on the PS2. The Wii on the other side is a very limited machine, if the controller will ever work with "hardcore" games is doubtful, even more that it will be good enough so that you don't mind the outdated graphics, online experience is lacking a lot and the game offering isn't exactly perfect either.
### The original argument was if it is a gimmick, and I still maintain that time will tell.
I'd say that time already told it. It just takes a while till the market will realize it and PS3/XBox360 hit a mass-market price range.
### However, there are upcoming titles that people seem to conveniently forget, such as Endless Ocean.
Which is a sequel to a sequel of a PS2 game called EverBlue, its still one of the more interesting games on the Wii, but not exactly of system-seller quality.
What happens if my games allows only two interactions, 'previous page' and 'next page' and while doing so it is showing some writing of Shakespeare? Is Shakespeare displayed on a TV (in text form) less art then printed on paper? Is there even a difference? Now, true, most games allow some more interaction then 'previous/next page', but many are really not that far away. Many games don't have much freedom, the story they present is predefined and linear, the only real difference is that the 'next page' trigger is a little harder to reach, hidden in some piece of action sequence or NPC dialog or whatever, that however doesn't really change the story they tell. A game simply can express the same stuff as a movie or a book, since when the interaction is striped down, its really almost the same thing.
However, there is a worthy point to discuss left: When a game gets closer to a movie by using cutscenes, it can be art like a movie. And a game that relies heavily on text dialog can get very close to a book and so be art like a book. But what about the actual gameplay itself? Most games that evoke emotions do so by using non-interactive cutscenes, not gameplay. Can a game evoke emotions in via gameplay itself? I think the answer would be 'yes', but there are only very few games around that ever tried that, let alone succeeded at it in the same way a non-interactive book, movie or cutscene can.
### Again, it takes time to make a game,
A game announcement on the other side should be doable quite easily, but that hasn't happened either.
### Not a full game? By what measure?
Number of objects to interact with, which in the Wii Sports is one. There simply is only one thing to do in the game and that is way to little for a show case on how to develop real games on the Wii, where you might have dozens of objects on the screen (enemies, allies, doors, buttons, multiple weapons, etc.). How do I control all those at the same time with 'motion control'?
### Wii Sports is probably the most played title on the Wii. I'd say that proves a lot.
It proves that there is a market for casual gamer titles and has little to no value on how to do 'real' games with the Wiimote.
### And yet even with all of those limitations, people are still buying it up left and right.
They buy it for the hype, not for the (non-existent) wide selection of good games.
### Both are odd ducks in the current generation. Both require a learning curve and a new way of thinking.
As said, a Cell that isn't used fully used doesn't do harm, a controller on the other side that can't handle the games people have been playing for the last decade is quite a more problematic.
### As someone who's grown up around these Nintendo franchises I don't understand how people who claim to be long time fans can be disappointed in the Wii or the latest versions of their old favorites.
NES, SNES, N64 or even the Gamecube had a lot of games beside Mario, Zelda and Metroid. StarFox, Pikmin, PilotWings, Waverace, YoshisIsland and all that stuff, it never was just about Mario/Zelda/Metroid alone. On the Wii however there really isn't much interesting happening beside Mario/Zelda/Metroid so 'purists' end up disliking it, since there is to much recycling and to little innovation. And even the classics look kind of stale Prime3 looks the same as Prime1, Zelda:TP felt more like a OoT mission disc then a new experience and MarioGalaxy also looks rather similar to previous titles.
### We've already gotten Zelda and Paper Mario games and Mario, Metroid, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Fire Emblem and more are on the way.
All of those are sequels, many don't even look all that different from their predecessors. What is missing are the completly new non-casual-gamer-only franchises, stuff like StarFox, StuntRaceFX, WaveRace, Pikmin and friends. There simply isn't anything of similar quality around on the Wii or even announced.
### the Wii isn't a year old yet...but...ok.
Developers get their fingers on the hardware quite a while before the actual release and the lack of decent game support was also already visible before release.
### The people have spoken, and developers were quick to sit up and pledge their support when the Wii took off unexpectedly.
Thats a very favorite myth, but where are the resulting games? Or even the game announcements? Nothing to be seen so far, all the big titles continue to be in development for PS3 and XBox360 and the Wii might get a few casual titles here and there.
### That will take time as games trickle out: some will work and some won't, but eventually new genres will open and expand outwards.
The mini-games/casual-gamer-games genre is expanding very well. In terms of 'normal' games (those with story and stuff) there is happening close to nothing on the Wii and those few games that are there could be done with a normal controller just as well (Zelda, PaperMario, etc.), kind of understandable since both were originally developed for Gamecube.
### But for the love of god, STOP using the "no games out now" arguments. Wii Sports is an excellent proof of concept.
Wii Sports is not a full game and therefore a pretty bad proof of concept, since it doesn't actually proof much. In real games you normally have a few more action then just a single "throw a bowling ball" one and that is where the real trouble starts. As long as its clear that the player is going to throw a bowling ball the developer can make a whole bunch of assumptions, since its already clear from the start how the resulting action will look, the hard part is figuring out which action to do when you don't know it beforehand. And where it gets close to impossible is trying to figuring that out without delay.
### No, it was necessary for them to make motion-sensing the cornerstone of the console.
The problem isn't that the Wii comes directly with the Wiimote, but that it has nothing else going for it: online play is close to non existent, graphics power is five years behind everybody else, games are lacking and so on.
### So I guess that makes the Cell gimmicky, too.
The Cell isn't a gimmick, it is an implementation detail, something no user has ever have to care about. A controller is however the thing which the user will touch and use on a daily basis, very different thing.
### These things take time.
Time that Nintendo should have spend *before* releasing it, a year after and they still don't really know what to do with it just isn't acceptable.
### Do you level a similar criticism at the PS3 because nobody is using all 9 cores to their fullest yet?
Graphics are far less important then controls. If graphics aren't up to full, thats not really a big issue, on the other side if the controls suck, the whole game is ruined.
### The simple fact is that the Wii took all of the major game publishers by surprise.
It didn't took Nintendo by surprise and even they don't really have much an idea what they are doing.
### We don't know what the Wii is capable of yet.
The specs are out, the controller can be used by an PC with Bluetooth, so there really are no secrets left and the sad truth is that the controller just isn't up to what some people have hoped for (no sensing of position in 3D space).
Just look back at history to see how it should be done: Mario64, that game looked like the controller was build for it and visa verse. It was released on day one together with the console and controller. There was no waiting for the day when they figured out how to use an analog stick, instead the analog-stick itself was build around the problem of navigating a 3D game. The Wiimote on the other side looks like a solution searching for a problem.
### Will it work out for Nintendo in the end?
It already is, they are making money on each and every Wii sold, quite a bit I guess, considering that the Gamecube is selling for $150 less then the Wii. For Nintendo its really a Win/Win situation, if people stop buying Wiis tomorrow, they still have made money with it, if they don't, they will just make more and more money. If the Wii on the other side will actually bring anything interesting for the hardcore market we have to wait and see, so far there really isn't much on the radar.
### Trying to win a 3-way graphics battle is a losing proposition
Might be, but completly giving up the fight can't be the right way either. Wii games already look old and that will only get worse with time. The issue isn't even that the Wii looks bad compared to PS3/XBox360, its that its struggling to even keep up with PS2/XBox/Gamecube.
### How about instead of increasing the number of pixel shaders
The Wii has exactly 0 of them, welcome in the technological stone age...
The thing I miss the most in the Wii however are not its graphical capabilities, but games that show that the controls are actually good for something. Sure, there is Wii Sports, but that is a rather limited game, you basically just have one motion in each sport, so it doesn't work much as a show case for general games. Looking forward to games like Mario and Metroid you will notice that Mario lacks camera control and Metroid makes use of minus as well as the 1 and 2 buttons, neither of them in a comfortable position to reach during gameplay. I get the feeling that Nintendo never designed the controller with real games in mind, which isn't exactly a good thing. And well, their 'big' E3 announcement Wii Fit didn't even use the Wiimote to begin with, not a good sign either.
### The motion sensitive games are VERY addictive.
Just because it works for one game, consisting of 3 second long mini-games, doesn't mean it works for everything.
### The games will follow, just give it time.
I have heard that now for a whole year, yet there are still no interesting games on the horizon and given how limited the motion sensing in the Wiimote is I doubt that there will ever be any. The idea of motion sensing is a nice one, making it however the only thing the console has going for it is a pretty stupid move, it sure works business wise, but in terms of interesting games very little has happened.
### I keep reading all these Wii stories about how Nintendo is abandoning the "hardcore gamer"
There you go: Hardcore Gamer
A hardcore gamer is simply one who considers games his hobby and not a time waster.
### same ones who were bashing Lucas over the newer Star Wars trilogy.
Well, the new trilogy was pretty awful, can't really blame people for bashing it.
### Just like the same people who knock the Wii for nothing but Zelda/Mario/Metroid games can't wait for Halo3/MSG4/GTA4/Maddenadinfinitum.
Easy to say when you don't have a clue. There are also *tons* of brand new IPs on PS3 and XBox360, HeavyRain, HeavenlySwords, BioShock, MassEffect, LittleBigPlanet, AssassinsCreed and a ton of more stuff. While on the Wii you really don't have much, Disaster, No More Heroes and little else that would be interesting for the "hardcore". The only area where the Wii is breaking new ground is in the casual market (Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc.), but thats not something that you can get people very excited with that have played games already for a decade or two.
The error is to assume that Mario, Metroid and Zelda would be enough for gamers. Most gamers like to have new games every once in a while, instead of the same classics over and over again that they already played for 20 years. Nintendo had only two original IPs on the Wii, Disaster: Day of Crisis and Project Hammer, Hammer is now canceled, leaving just *one* new game for the "hardcore" audience, that just isn't enough, not even close.
### The game-play got more difficult as you progressed
And more difficult for most part meant 'faster'. Sorry, but some of us are actually happy that we don't have to run through the same Pacman maze over and over again at ever increasing speeds. I like that Level 2 looks different then Level 1 and I also like when there is a bit of strategy involved instead of just quick reactions. I also like when games have a conclusion instead of just a game over screen. I never was a fan of simple arcade games and I doubt that I will ever will, but then I grew up on a C64, not in the arcade.
You might be able to design an extra simplistic game that works with the Zapper. But way should you when you could use the whole 'power' of the Wiimote and the Nunchuk instead? The Wiimote already lacks buttons as it is, just look at Metroid which even makes use of the nearly unreachable 1 and 2 buttons, using the zapper just would be even more restrictive. Just look at the current FPS line-up, I don't think the Zapper would work with any of that.
### You mean like Final Fantasy 1 - 13, Halo 1 - 3,
Final Fantasy is each time a completly new game, same or similar game mechanics sure, but new characters, new worlds, story and all that stuff. Halo has a continuous story line. With GTA I might agree, there has been quite a bit of milking going on, but then GTAIV seems to have some variation is the setting and not just another SanAndreas.
### That is your idea of "hardcore" that is somehow superior to what Nintendo is doing?
Yes, because it doesn't end with FF and GTA, the other consoles also have Bioshock, AssassinsCreed, Alan Wake, HeavenlySword, Gears of War, Little Big Planet, Echochrome and all that completly new and innovative stuff.
### Also, your argument is VERY inconsistent. You dismiss Wii Sports, Wii Play, Nintendogs stuff because it isn't hardcore
I dismiss them because they are extremely simplistic and predictable games.
### but you previously rail on the lack off innovative hardcore games like...Yoshi's Island?!?!
Hardcore has nothing to do with how much blood a game has, Yoshis Island was full of brilliant level design and fresh ideas, in fact I consider it the best 2D jump'n run to date (closely followed by MarioBros3). It is that spark of brilliance that I miss a lot in Nintedo games lately.
### People who are engaged in their life and successful do not have TIME to be "hardcore gamers".
So just because you don't have the time everybody shall go play super simplistic games that get boring after half an hour? Next you suggest we should get to make good movies and instead settle with soup operas, since they are so much more accessible...
This is just the games section of slashdot, why shouldn't it be used for E3 news, even plenty of them? Its not like there is much else to report in these days.
The Zapper doesn't add any buttons, its just a plastic shell, which due to its layout makes most buttons unreachable and the nunchuks accelerometer unusable. Its basically useless for FPS and only suited for simple lightgun shooter specifically designed for it.
### the old fans, nothing wrong with that.
Old fans are not always pleased with old games and old gameplay, some actually want some innovation. That sad, MarioGalaxy looks great, MetroidPrime looks to much like the GC counter parts and I already didn't like those, prefer classic 2D Metroid much more.
### Same with Mario Kart vs Forza/GT.
The irony here is that once up on a time Mario Kart was hardcore, it not only was a rather though game, it was also one of the first console racers to ever be 3D, allowing you to make 180 turns and stuff like that, while other games had you race in front of a 2D background allowing you only left/right steering and acceleration (Top Gear, Outrun, etc.). Mario Kart also had advanced stuff like ghosts racers for time trial.
But as with many franchises, the rest of the world moved on, while Nintendo kind of got stuck ten years ago. There really hasn't been any real news in MarioKart since MarioKart64 and I still consider the original SNES one to be the best of them all. That of course doesn't mean that MarioKart should turn into a Forza, but it certainly would help if Nintendo had anything to offer beside MarioKart that could keep up with Forza and GT.
### I am convinced that it is the 2nd and 3rd generation of Wii titles that will ultimately define the Wii.
I kind of doubt that there will be any larger change in the games that will be available for the Wii. Third parties are starting Wii development, but they are starting mini/puzzle/cartoon and whatever kind of games, they are not doing the AssassinsCreeds and BioShocks. It just wouldn't make sense to produce that kind of games for a market that is buying the console for a completly different set of games today. It also doesn't make sense because the PS3/XBox360 offer a larger market share if they do multiplatform development, simply porting to the Wii doesn't work either, since the underlying engines just won't be practical on the Wii. So I don't really see where any other kind of game should be coming from, there really is nothing announced that would move away from the current casual gamer trend, quite the opposite, Wii Fit is securing that niche even more.
### I define a hardcore game as a game targeted to the age 14-35 male demographic (approximately), and a casual game as targeted to the 6-65 male/female demographic.
I wouldn't pin down hardcore or non-hardcore on the age demographic, that would be to simplistic. Instead I would pin it down on a games complexity, not just the amount of buttons it needs, but also how many ways there are to interact with the game world and stuff like that. Something like Falcon4.0 is certainly very hardcore, since it simulates a complicated vehicle, but things like SuperMarioBros are also still rather hardcore, even so they have a relativly simplistic core, since there are quite a few things you need to know to master the game (warp zones and stuff) and even if you mastered it, there are still crazy speed runs you can attempt, wall-jumps and other really weird stuff.
With a thing like Nintendogs on the other side you have seen virtually everything the game ever has to offer in the first 10 minutes, same with BrainAge or Wii Sports. The difficulty might rise over time, but the game doesn't really offer anything new over time, its stays the same. And with something like Zelda:TP you have a game that might seem hardcore on a first look, but doesn't really offer anything new, if you have played previous Zeldas you know what to expect, there are no real surprises, no twists, etc. On top of that its also so incredible easy that you can just sleepwalk your way through the game, you don't need to learn boss tactics as in previous Zeldas, instead you easily finish most of them on the first try. So I'll ditch it into the software category, since all that nice design issue is basically lost in repeated and way to easy gameplay.