Where the Wii Fits In

AGFlamey writes "On Angry Gamer is an interesting and lengthy article about the new direction Nintendo are taking with the Wii and in particular "non-games" like Wii Fit and Big Brain Academy. From the article: "Hardcore folks don't like to admit it, but Mario and Zelda are relics of the past. It's become quite clear that Nintendo is losing interest in remaking the same old games over and over. They want to pull us into something new, if only we can give them the chance." Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots?"

Comments

So that must be

[Scrameustache]

Why there is neither Mario nor Zelda to play on the Wii then, huh?

Re:So that must be

[Kangie]

But there's still hope. I'm waiting for Final Halo MCCXVI, or Grand Theft Auto 19.

But on a more serious note, It's nice to see games (even non-games) that step outside the boundaries of normality, sometimes you wnd up with a really interesting game that's worth playing. Others, you ask? Think of a certain Romero game..

Re:So that must be

[Jartan]

Why there is neither Mario nor Zelda to play on the Wii then, huh?

I think a lot of people who work in the industry would probably put Mario in the "casual" market category. Either that or some sort of casual/hardcore hybrid. Zelda isn't exactly feeling it's roots lately either. It's not hard to imagine the first Zelda exclusively for the Wii might be a bit more casual than previous titles.

Re:So that must be

[jessecurry]

LOL... I thought the same thing. Nintendo made sure to get it's classics out right away. Now that they have a solid library of base games they're branching out and trying new things. There are even some new Mario games on the way. I think that the author kind of missed the point, but it's interesting to think about the new directions that nintendo is opening up.
I think that new types of games are a necessary thing, and focusing on new types of gameplay is a very good move by nintendo that will benefit the entire industry. Microsoft and Sony systems now have production and development costs that are so high that the manufacturers cannot afford to take risks, but nintendo not only is focusing on the gameplay with their in-house development, but they also have begun to open the platform to independent developers so we can start to see a bunch of great smaller titles in the future.

Re:So that must be

[PoitNarf]

No Zelda you say?

http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Twilight-Prince ss/dp/B000FQBPCQ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5942051-98758 16?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1185121721&sr=8-1/

Re:So that must be

[Bad Ad]

"missed the clue train" i say.

Re:So that must be

[that IT girl]

Of course. Mario is practically Nintendo's flagship game/character. I like that they have so far managed to stick with the classics and still branch out for new games. I just hope Mario doesn't go the way of the "GameBoy" name. Yes, adapt to a changing market, but don't abandon what so many serious AND casual gamers still love and remember from back in the day.

Re:So that must be

[Scrameustache]

LOL... I thought the same thing. Nintendo made sure to get it's classics out right away. Now that they have a solid library of base games they're branching out and trying new things. There are even some new Mario games on the way. I think that the author kind of missed the point, but it's interesting to think about the new directions that nintendo is opening up. Exactly: We aren't losing Mario, we're gaining new game mechanics! Win/win.

Re:So that must be

[drsquare]

Why there is neither Mario nor Zelda to play on the Wii then, huh?

In Europe at least, no. Maybe they have a different strategy over here, i.e. the old 'don't bother releasing anything here until a year after everywhere else so we don't make any sales' strategy.

Re:So that must be

[alvinrod]

And prior to the most recent generation of games, Mario was somehow hardcore only or completely different?

The only major change that Mario has undergone is a transition from 2D to 3D, but beyond that the game hasn't changed a lot. If you think the new Mario games are too easy have you ever collected all 120 stars in any of the more recent titles? It's not too terribly hard to collect enough stars to fight the final boss and beat the game, but to collect every single star requires a lot more effort. It's a game that's accessible to most people who are able to work the controller. You can do the bare minimum and finish the game, or you can collect everything. It's fairly accomodating.

I'd say the only major change is that the new 3D Mario games are on a whole less accessible to people than the old 2D games. I think using more simplified control methods make these games available to other audiances who would not have given them a chance otherwise.

I also fail to see how Zelda isn't "feeling its roots lately either." The last incarnation of the game in Twilight Princess was easily the best since Ocarina of Time and in some ways surpassed that game. I had a great time with Twilight Princess and it's one of those games that can easily suck up forty hours of your life. I fail to see how a game like this with dungeons that can take hours to fully explore and solve can be labled as more casual. If anything, Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass make the game more accessible with their new control schemes while at the same time providing a new and novel approach for vetrens of the series. Repackaging the same exact game over and over with a slightly different story doesn't necessarily make a game good or exciting.

Don't mistake more accessible for more casual. Accessible means that more people are able to pick it up and play it and enjoy their experience. Casual means that they are able to do this while not devoting hours to it at a time in order to enjoy it.

Re:So that must be

[g_hill]

I'm not sure what part of Europe you're in, but Zelda was a launch title here in the UK and Mario Galaxy isn't out anywhere never mind Europe. Nintendo still have plenty of sales in Europe too, it's just frustrating that we have to wait so long. I hope Mario Galaxy gets a near simultaneous worldwide release but I doubt it.

Re:So that must be

[drsquare]

I was thinking of that paper mario.

Re:So that must be

[Anonymous Coward]

have you ever collected all 120 stars in any of the more recent titles? It's not too terribly hard to collect enough stars to fight the final boss and beat the game, but to collect every single star requires a lot more effort.

Yeah, but collecting stars isn't all that fun. I hate that Mario64 ushered in the notion of replaying the same level over and over again; it's boring as shit.

Re:So that must be

[Lemmy Caution]

At this point, I think that the term "hardcore" really means "catering to crude adolescent power fantasies and sexual frustration" more than anything else.

Re:So that must be

[LKM]

Zelda isn't exactly feeling it's roots lately either

I would argue the opposite. After Wind Waker, which many hardcore gamers seem to dislike, Nintendo has actually gone back to its roots. Twilight Princess feels like an absolute fanservice in comparison. It's basically Ocarina of Time with a new main quest and better graphics.

Re:So that must be

[Torvaun]

As opposed to what? Speed run through the game, then get a new game? Diablo II style, where the map is always different, not like it matters anyway? Hell, most LAN parties are FPS, and they generally use the same level over and over again.

I don't think that the same level is necessarily boring all on its own, just that it is easy to do poorly if the company doesn't care to put enough effort into making it right.

Re:So that must be

[smookumy]

That is bumper sticker material.

Re:So that must be

[utopianfiat]

It's pulled enemies from LttP, which I really liked.

Re:So that must be

[rachit]

Maybe that explains why the title of the article is "Where the Wii fits in".

Re:So that must be

[Walpurgiss]

Super Mario World had playing the same levels over and over in order to get all 96 stars.

Re:So that must be

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Thats "mature" IMO. IMO Hardcore games are challenging and sometimes hard as hell, but without cheating AI. Think Ninja Gaiden or DMC. They require skill but dont have AI that completely cheats like some games do.

Re:So that must be

[macshome]

So except for the plot and all the graphics it's the same game? That seems a stretch... I agree that it's fanservice, but it's fanservice for one of the greatest games ever created.

Re:So that must be

[qualidafial]

That's the joke I was searching for, thank you.

Re:So that must be

[caitsith01]

Only if you have a very wide car.

Re:So that must be

[blackicye]

As opposed to what? Speed run through the game, then get a new game? Diablo II style, where the map is always different, not like it matters anyway? Hell, most LAN parties are FPS, and they generally use the same level over and over again.

The difference is that with online play or at a lanparty, the otherwise meaningless repetition of playing through the same level over and over again, is made meaningful by having copious amounts of fresh meat, who will hopefully start behaving differently after I've nailed them in the head with an AK-47 for the third consecutive round.

Playing said level single player or against bots (as is the case with platformers like mario) is entirely pointless, unless it is to familiarize yourself with the level in order to "pwn some n00bs" at a later date.

Nintendo has repeatedly resisted and refused to incorporate online play as a component of their consoles and games. Yes I do own a Wii, but its collecting dust in my living room, the novelty wore off in about 2 weeks. Its modded and yes I do have a considerable amount of bandwidth with which to download wii games, but I can't even be bothered frankly.

My PS3 is only occasionally used right now (busy with work these few months) mainly to play Ninja Gaiden.

Re:So that must be

[LKM]

So except for the plot and all the graphics it's the same game? That seems a stretch...

Well yeah, there are also some new items, but apart from that, the gameplay, the graphic style, the kind of puzzles you solve, the concept of overworld/dungeons and reaching new powers to reach new areas, and so on, that's all straight from Zelda 64.

Re:So that must be

[Benaiah]

But playing Mario levels over and over is like masturbation.
It may seem like fun at the time, but in the end your only fucking yourself.

LAN parties are awesome(at uni), and although the level is the same, the game play is different. The people you are playing against is not the computer who will do the same thing every time, but will learn your style and use your moves against you very quickly.

Re:So that must be

[Applekid]

After Wind Waker, which many hardcore gamers seem to dislike, Nintendo has actually gone back to its roots Which is part of the point of Nintendo branching out to other styles of play. There's no room for innovation if your fanbase is going to cry loudly when things change over just a silly thing like graphics. (Some will blame the time spent at sea when a lot of prior Zeldas have similar timesinks like running around Hyrule plains or following the exact same path and fighting the exact same enemies over and over.)

The term "fanservice" stems from having to service the fans. They have to feed them and care for them and give them what they want to keep them as fans. Casual gaming caters to an audience that won't dress up in costumes of characters at conventions, won't be inspired to start web-comics about video games, won't find an undying need to blog about them.

I won't pretend I know what's going on in the grand schemes of Nintendo, behind closed doors. But as more casual gamers jump on the concentration of drooling fanboys would diminish in percentage making it much less risky to take chances with the IP they guard so jealously.

Re:So that must be

[ElleyKitten]

Playing said level single player or against bots (as is the case with platformers like mario) is entirely pointless, unless it is to familiarize yourself with the level in order to "pwn some n00bs" at a later date. Not everyone thinks the same as you. I personally like single player games, and it's more about improving my skills and exploring and seeing the storyline and having fun, without comparing myself to other people. Pwning some n00bs is only entertaining for so long. Even when I'm playing with other people, it's only fun with people I know and not with some random people on the net. Nintendo markets their products to people like me, while other companies market to other people. Since Nintendo is doing rather well for themselves (with the Wii almost caught up to the 360 in sales despite the 360 having a year's head start, and the DS selling better than anything), I don't think they've made a bad choice in the market they're aiming at. You might be disappointed that Nintendo isn't catering to you by including online play so you can pwn some n00bs, but they're doing just fine without that so complaining about it is as effective as it would be for me to say that Microsoft sucks because they don't make games like Harvest Moon and WarioWare.

Re:So that must be

[Altus]

dont you already have super mario strikers there? we are still waiting here in the states (where, obviously, football/soccer just isn't as popular, but I still want the game).

Re:So that must be

[superbus1929]

I see no problems whatsoever with that.

As a matter of fact, I would wager that Zelda's whole universe - there haven't been any actual sequels since the NES days, to my knowledge - revolves around it being essentially the same idea. Every game is different than every other game, and unrelated, and they're essentially the same for a long time until specific game mechanics (Ocarina, masks, sailing, what have you) take over.

That's not a bad thing, necessarily. Not only does it do what Zelda do best - make the person use their imagination - but it also gets rid of pesky canonical issues.

Re:So that must be

[socz]

Don't forget that it includes a nice black shiny case too!

Re:So that must be

[shoptroll]

Really? I felt dirty after watching Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children. Didn't get the same feeling after playing Twilight Princess. Although I thought TP could've moved along a little faster than it did.

Re:So that must be

[LKM]

I see no problems whatsoever with that.

I didn't say it was a bad thing, or a problem, or that I had issues with it. I was just replying to someobdy claiming that "Zelda isn't exactly feeling it's roots lately either."

Zelda is the most consistent of all Nintendo franchises. In fact, pretty much each game is the same story again and again, with a new, reborn Link (apart from some games like Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening).

As a matter of fact, I would wager that Zelda's whole universe - there haven't been any actual sequels since the NES days, to my knowledge

I thinkt he Link in Majora's Mask is the same as the one in Ocarina of Time, and I think the one from Link's Awakening is the same as the one in A Link to the Past, but I might be wrong. So those could possibly be considered sequels. Although again, I could be wrong.

Also, Wind Waker and the DS one seem to be related.

Re:So that must be

[Torvaun]

I'm right there with you. I'm currently on my second run of Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones. This time, I'm mainly enjoying all the banter between Prince and Dark Prince, and trying to not have the guardians trigger any of the Sand Gates. There is also, of course, the fun and thrill of virtually performing death defying feats of acrobatics.

Re:So that must be

[superbus1929]

Oh, I wasn't challenging you. More or less agreeing. And the great thing about Zelda? What is a sequel of what - unless it's Adventures of Link (underrated) - doesn't matter much in the grand scheme. They still rule.

I'm not so sure...

[Red Samurai]

Don't count out the classics just yet. AAA titles like Mario, Zelda, and Metroid are pretty much the main attraction for Nintendo fans, and without them, Nintendo wouldn't be able to support itself with novelty alone. AAA titles have always been Nintendo's pillar of strength, and the only reason they didn't call it quits when the Gamecube lost out last time round.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Nitroadict]

Hmm, after the 64 and Gamecube, and the sudden huge success of the Wii, is it a bad thing that Nintendo may be changing it's strategy? I don't think it is... but I don't think they are neglecting their roots either. It looks more like they are updating their strategy and bringing their roots with them... and from the glimpse of what the Wii is offering now, I see nothing but interesting things coming from Nintendo in the future. Hardcore gamers won't miss out on anything: they are 3 consoles out, 3 more coming up soon in the form of rumors for the next-gen (PS4? The Next Xbox? Another more powerful Wii and/or another portable in the vein of the DS? Only time will tell); the Ps3 will (hopefully) eventually prove more than enough to satisfy hardcore gamers as long as they don't lose any exclusives (MGS4, FF13...), Xbox360 is proving to very formidable in the online arena. Aside from a lot of crappy games (and every era in video gaming had it's fair share of countless bad games, even SNES), this could be a new golden age of gaming if looked at with the proper perspective. Long live video gaming, both casual & hardcore, and hell, why not everything in-between. If only Sega could come back someday with a console than finished the job what the dreamcast almost had (which was consistent success).

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Twiceblessedman]

They didn't even come in last really last round either. Maybe in North America but worldwide they were pretty solid.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Aladrin]

Nintendo's strategy, with the exception of the poorly-received GameCube, has been to change. This is nothing new, they are, in fact, returning to their roots just as everyone is screaming at them for not sticking with them.

As already pointed out, Mario, Zelda and Metroid games continue to be produced, and new games are being created constantly as well. (Brain Age comes to mind as a recent success in innovation that doesn't require odd hardware.)

The GameCube was so poorly-received because it tried to do the same thing as other consoles, but with much, much less power. It was like the Jr Olympics... Cute and mildly entertaining, but hardly as exciting as the real thing. The Wii returns to Nintendo's roots and offers gimmicky controllers (Robby the Robot? The Power Glove?) to enhance the gaming experience, instead of relying on flashy graphics.

I own all 3 current gen systems, and while I don't really have a 'favorite', the PS3 is my least favorite. So far, it's done nothing (game-wise) that the 360 hasn't. Maybe Little Big Planet and Echochrome will change that... They're the only thing in the near future that has my attention. And maybe more classic games will help me like it better, as well. They've got Jet Moto (definitely one of may all-time racing games) but they don't have anything else I want, yet. Persona would be awesome. I recently started playing it again, and it's about what I remembered... Poor interface, but has plot and some thought into the combat/contact system.

Of the remaining 2, the Wii is my favorite for light-hearted games, and the 360 for serious games. That's not saying much for the consoles themselves, though, as those kind of games just naturally gravitate that way.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[aywwts4]

The gamecube was just behind the xbox in terms of graphical power, and a solid bit ahead of the ps2. Just because the ps2 was the most successful, dont think it was graphical power that got them there.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[LKM]

Nintendo's strategy, with the exception of the poorly-received GameCube, has been to change. This is nothing new, they are, in fact, returning to their roots just as everyone is screaming at them for not sticking with them.

Exactly! If you go back in time to when Nintendo started making consoles, you'll see that the Nintendo of NES times was very similar to the Nintendo of now. They always tried to go for innovative/children/family/adult stuff (with things like Rob, the Zapper or their dance mat thing), while their competition went for the hardcore/adolescent market (first Sega, later Sony).

Nintendo hasn't changed, they've just remembered what made them big in the first place.

(By the way, the Power Glove was not from Nintendo, it was from Mattel.)

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Heembo]

Just because the ps2 was the most successful, dont think it was graphical power that got them there. Yes. It was the (1) cheapnsess of the ps2 and more importantly (2) It was the amazing abundant plethora of titles that made (and continues to make) the ps2 the most popular and the most bought (even now) console.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Aladrin]

Holy crap. I feel like... I've been lied to for years. lol I thought the Power Glove was straight up Nintendo. (I think they encouraged that, what with it being in that 'The Wizard' movie that was about Super Mario Bros 3.) Doesn't make it any less of an accessory, though. I'm looking forward to the day they (or Mattel!) make one for the Wii and put Super Glove Ball on the VC. (Or remake it... -drool-)

Thx for the head's up.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Whitemage12380]

No arguing with (2), but the gamecube was much cheaper than the PS2. I think the PS2 rode all the way on mind-blowingly high support from third parties. I don't know much about their marketing strategy to producers, but it must have been really effective.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Mal-2]

PS2 also benefited from the fact that people with no console at all (or a much older one) could buy a PS2 and immediately borrow or buy all the existing PlayStation games. The GameCube had no such untapped market segment to exploit. Even for PlayStation owners, the PS2 could serve as the only console on the shelf, meaning no swapping or switching to play the games they already had. This also freed up the old console to live in the kid's playroom or wherever it might still be desirable. It didn't hurt that the PS2 would play DVDs, but it probably didn't help all that much either.

Mal-2

Re:I'm not so sure...

[UnknownSoldier]

>> Just because the ps2 was the most successful, don't think it was graphical power that got them there.
> Yes.

IAAGD. (I am a Game Developer.) Having shipped a few games on various platforms (include the PS2), I would also agree it wasn't graphical power that made the PS2 successful. (Morrowind and Halo put the original XBox shaders to good use -- few other games did at the time.) No one really complained about the low polygon budget (or small texture sizes) in GTA. Everyone was having too much fun playing it.

My list would be:

0. Price Drop. When the PS2 dropped down to $299, that was the magic price point.
1. Games. Couple of simultaneous "hit" titles like GTA, GT3, Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, MGS2, Kingdom Hearts, ICO all helped cement its lead.
2. DVD -- The ability to also play DVD's without needing to spend any extra money (looking at you Microsoft) was also a factor, in addition to being able to play your games was a _huge_ draw. It was for me, until I could figure out which DVD was worth buying.
3. Backwards compatibility. You could still fire up your PS1 favorites.

It was a winning combination, that together made it (and still) very appealing.

Cheers

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Fex303]

I worked retail in the video games department of a major department store for pretty much the entire last generation of consoles. I would agree that all of your points are very relevant. If anyone's got mod points, bump up the above post please.

I think /. posters underestimate how important the ability to play DVDs was to many parents buying this for the kids. They either didn't have a DVD player (early in the console cycle) or they already had one, but wanted a spare for the kids' TV (later in the console cycle). The other important point was the variety of games that the PS2 had. It had AAA titles in pretty much every genre, and more importantly, at every age range. When parents came in, they wanted a console that would last, and the variety of games on offer made them feel confident that the PS2 would keep little Billy entertained for more than a couple of weeks.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[eonlabs]

Agreed, I don't know how the intro to the article can drop that statements when nintendo has this:

Zelda: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=uzm6DQbya7 _9uLUBz0Foxg1WFZfgV-en&

Mario: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=rOhwzYb_mQ CENHazWJ9C0aet-KIx3A7P&

Metroid: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=xsLZ8sftLA R_GunWLmDZeH72LA_Xxp1C

and for good measure:

Pokemon: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=lXtLHZS0Kb _sJy4T9vuBgUfKUibop045

et. al.

They seem to have a pretty solid foundation in sequels to classics

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Saikik]

3. Backwards compatibility. You could still fire up your PS1 favorites.

Everyone always tacks that one on their 'list' when they talk about the advantages of the PS2 but honestly how many people spent a lot of time if any playing PSO games after they had a sizable PS2 library?

For the most part backwards compatibility just seems to be a novelty that wears off of a console in a few months. Granted in a few years you maybe feeling nostalgic and want to play games from your past but hopefully by then you can just download them instead of having to wonder where you kept all your game carts/discs.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

4. Shovelware.

The PS2 had heaps of shovelware. We might hate it, but casual gamers can't get enough of "American Chopper: The Game" and "Crazy Frog Racer".

Re:I'm not so sure...

[aliquis]

"The GameCube was so poorly-received because it tried to do the same thing as other consoles, but with much, much less power."

Someone else have already pointed it out but you deserve to have it said twice ;D

The Gamecube is more powerful than the PS2 which sold waaay more units than both Xbox and Gamecube (one could argue that quite a few of those where replacements due to shitty quality thought ..). Anyway you are wrong, Gamecube is much faster than PS2 and was much cheaper and more reliable, and I read somewhere that the graphics capabilities of it is as good or even better than the Xbox just that it had to little graphics memory to make use of it.

Only flaw and failure of the Gamecube was that the N64 used cartridges instead of CDs so Nintendo lost some third part developers due to higher development costs / smaller margins, which even wasn't a flaw of the Gamecube of it's own .. Also the Gamecube controllers own those PS2 ones =P

PS2 sold most because PS1 sold well and it had many games. For the same reason PS3 doesn't sell well atm (to few games.)

Re:I'm not so sure...

[aliquis]

Except the PS2 was the most expensive console you are right... Least power and highest price..

Re:I'm not so sure...

[fyrewulff]

It's not so much that people continue to play those games, it's that it helps transition them over.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Wookietim]

I doubt that Mario, Metroid and Zelda will ever go away... One thing - the Wii has more than just novelty going for it. The fact is, it's fun. It is allowing a new type of game to be developed. And it's much better at pulling people into it than a system that encourages you to sit in one spot and move your thumbs. That is not novelty - it is innovation.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[theTrueMikeBrown]

I do.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[DDLKermit007]

Ummm...you do know the PS2 STARTED at $299 right?

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Megane]

I think /. posters underestimate how important the ability to play DVDs was to many parents buying this for the kids. They either didn't have a DVD player (early in the console cycle) or they already had one, but wanted a spare for the kids' TV (later in the console cycle)

The problems with the PS3 having Blu-Ray vs the PS2 having DVD are that:
1) IMHO the PS3 came way too early in the Blu-Ray lifecycle, while DVD had been around two years before the PS2, when the hardware costs for DVD were not stratospheric,
2) DVD was an uncontested format when it was released, while the future of Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD is not certain, and
3) would parents feel the need for a spare Blu-Ray player for the kids TV, which is 99% likely not to be HD?

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Chosen Reject]

No no no. You don't get it. Because Nintendo is branching out that means they are dropping their bread and butter. Look, the writing is on the wall. It's just like Microsoft. When MS made the XBox it was obvious they were going to stop making Windows and Office. It's just around the corner now. Nintendo is going to stop making these games that sell millions so they can focus on other games that may or may not sell millions.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully he meant $199, as that was in fact the magic price point.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[UnknownSoldier]

Hey, thx guys for the correction.

I got mine with the Logitech Racing Wheel & GT3 so I always seem to remember 299 instead of 199. :-)

Re:I'm not so sure...

[7Prime]

Quite a few. The PS2 was my first console, as it was many other people's. Every new console is TRYING to bring in new people. New people = didn't have the last console. One that can boast an extended library by having titles from its previous incarnation looks a lot better in the eyes of new gamers, than one that starts it's launch with 8 titles to choose from. Plus, as the generation got on, the very first PS2 games didn't really seem all that different from PS1 games (I'm playing ICO right now, which could have done fine on the PS1, for instance), and so the break between the generations are really quite seemless.

Re:I'm not so sure...

[7Prime]

Bingo. In many ways, the success of one console can be judged by how well the last console was recieved. The N64 really had some major problems: weird controller, loss of 3rd parties, cartridges (which also provided some possitive things, but was overall, not well recieved). The GameCube actually fixed most of these things, but didn't sell well because of the ill image the N64 gave Nintendo.

In fact, the GameCube was a pretty well recieved console. Everyone who bought one (myself included) tended to think very highly of it. It was much more polished than the N64 in terms of it's design and direction. I think that PART of the success of the Wii is due to the fact that Nintendo won a lot of people over (if from afar) with the GameCube. It really demonstrated to third parties that Nintendo hadn't forgotten about them, so they vowed to jump on the bandwagon when the next generation came along.

Watch out Wii 2.0, or whatever is next up. Nintendo better be prepared to sell more numbers than tney can imagine. With the popularity of the Wii as it is, their next console, following the trend, will probably hit sales figures of PS2 proportions.

Nintendo is not neglecting its roots.

[kevn]

Zelda Twilight princess and Super Mario Galaxy not to mention the upcoming Metroid shooter kind of make this guys argument seem silly. Nintendo is pursuing the casual gamer but they are not about to "neglect their roots."

Re:Nintendo is not neglecting its roots.

[alvinrod]

Haven't you heard that if you make controversial statements and attempt to troll Nintendo fans that your article will get picked up on sites like Slashdot and Digg where thousands of members will click through to read the article and give you more page hits?

It's the same whenever Dvorak writes some sensationalist column about how Apple is going to be driven out of the industry or fail in some other manner. He's just trolling to get a few more page hits and ad revenue.

It's the same reason tabloids and other yellow journalism rags print the news they do. People are attracted to sensationalist crap and will pay money to read it.

I've heard this particular argument that the article presents at least two other times on Slashdot in the past month. Every time it's refuted by common sense thinking and posters pointing out evidence to the contrary. Everyone seems to confuse "expanding the market" with "neglecting the base." This article should be modded troll, because it really is one, and also redundant, because it's already cropped up a few times before. Just because some journalist couldn't think up a good idea for a decent article doesn't mean this tripe is newsworthy.

Re:Nintendo is not neglecting its roots.

[Ohreally_factor]

Dvoraking is so common it doesn't even bear mentioning these days. What is important to me is whether or not the article itself is just a troll/flame, or if it is thoughtfully written. Of course, if a writer or website burns me by not delivering the goods, I won't give them the attention they so desperately seek.

I'm not sure if the article submitter and the article writer are the same person (although the submitter is a tout from Angry Gamer obviously - AGFlamey? C'mon!). Still, the article itself is interesting and well written and the author is knowledgeable of the history of games. Perhaps his points are unoriginal and merely a rehash, but I don't keep up on the latest in gaming news and opinion, so it was still of interest to me.

The main thing that makes me doubt that AGFlamey and Lis Vender (the writer of the article in question) are the same person is the story summary's obligatory slashdot question (patent pending), "Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots?" The article makes no such claims, merely arguing that the Nintendo developers are weary of cranking out successive iterations of the cash cow titles. And logically, why would Nintendo neglect its cash cows? If a company is going to attempt to break new ground, it's going to need its established money makers to support that effort.

What the article does do is examine Nintendo's "new" strategy, and it argues that it's not new. Briefly mentioned as one of Nintendo's failures is the Power Pad accessory and its related games, but I would argue that while it might not have succeeded commercially, it represents Nintendo's willingness to stake out new territory (and not giving up when first efforts fail; is there a great conceptual difference between Family Fun Fitness and Wii Fitness?). Anyway, the theses of the article seem to be that 1) Nintendo has always been about just having fun, and 2) Nintendo has always been willing to stake out new territory based on thesis #1. In this sense, they are even more Apple than Apple. Apple's recent successes, the iPod and the iPhone (that might be a premature call*) are based on Apple's main thesis (ease of use), but Apple entered markets that already existed.

To return to your original complaint, bullshit sensationalism is an effect of so many voices clamoring for our attention. Sensationalism is nothing new. The problem arises when we are inundated by it as more and more take up this strategy for grabbing our attention. It's another tragedy of the commons, the commons in this case being our media space. I don't see any way to stop it other than to let it run its course. As more and more people become inured to sensationalism, other strategies will be adopted. (We're already seeing rudimentary developments of reputation systems, for example.)

* If I had use a bold exclamation point (i.e., iPhone!), we could call it a premature ejaculation.

Re:Nintendo is not neglecting its roots.

[ShaggyIan]

It's the same reason tabloids and other yellow journalism rags print the news they do. You mean Lester the Typing Horse is lying to me?!?

No. I'm sure BatBoy Lives!

Re:Nintendo is not neglecting its roots.

[magus_melchior]

Had you read the article, you would have known that the author makes no such statement-- in fact, you're reiterating his point. The real trolling is in the submitter's summary.

In case you have forgotten

[perlhacker14]

In case you have forgotten, the old lines are the better sellers. Among all the newer things like wii sports, and many others, Mario and Zelda still have a huge fan base and still sell. It is not a bad thing that Nintendo is moving for more lines, but they should still keep the old tried and true (and the better) series until sales begin to drop (which they never will, if the quality keeps up and only when fans become bored). I still play all the older sets, and my friends still do, and we all find enjoyment in things like Smash and Zelda and Starfox and mario party.

Re:In case you have forgotten

[Anonymous Coward]

We have forgotten and we get on with our lives. Loser.

Re:In case you have forgotten

[_KiTA_]

In case you have forgotten, the old lines are the better sellers. Among all the newer things like wii sports, and many others, Mario and Zelda still have a huge fan base and still sell. It is not a bad thing that Nintendo is moving for more lines, but they should still keep the old tried and true (and the better) series until sales begin to drop (which they never will, if the quality keeps up and only when fans become bored). I still play all the older sets, and my friends still do, and we all find enjoyment in things like Smash and Zelda and Starfox and mario party.

Um, pardon me if I'm wrong, but haven't the brain age and other games like that sold like a billion copies each? They're extremely popular if only cause they're targeting an untapped market.

Re:In case you have forgotten

[Anonymous Coward]

So innovation is another installment of the Mario/Zelda franchise?

This is why gamers who have reached puberty don't play with a Wii.

Enough of Mario and Zelda

[benzapp]

Personally, the reason I don't get any nintendo machines these days is because of the endless Mario and Zelda remakes. The original NES came out when I was in first grade. Now, I'm almost 30 and have been playing these games virtually my entire life.

I might pick a Wii up someday, but so far not much has convinced me Nintendo is really trying to start a new mode of gaming. It looks promising, but it's just not there yet. Obviously, millions of people ARE giving Nintendo a chance, especially compared to the failed Gamecube. I look at the game releases, and most of it just hasn't lived up to everyone's expectations. I don't care how good the latest Zelda game is, or Paper Mario. I just can't bring myself to play these games anymore. It's time for Nintendo to not just reinvent the hardware, but to reinvent the entire story behind their games.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[WIAKywbfatw]

Come on. If there's one thing that you can't accuse Nintendo of it's lacking originality in coming up with new games.

Look at the WarioWare series of games, for example. If WarioWare: Smooth Moves on the Wii isn't an example of "reinventing the entire story behind a game" then, please tell us, what out there is?

As for the Gamecube being a failure, well, if you go by the number of consoles sold then, sure, it wasn't as popular as the PlayStation 2, and was a "failure" but if you use that whacky profit metric that those crazy kids down at Wall Street are so fond of, the Gamecube did quite well.

I've never owned a Nintendo console in my life but it seems that they've made plenty of original games along the way, as well as making plenty of sequels (and let's not forget that sequels can be original too!), and made plenty of money doing it.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[mh1997]

Personally, the reason I don't get any nintendo machines these days is because of the endless Mario and Zelda remakes. The original NES came out when I was in first grade. Now, I'm almost 30 and have been playing these games virtually my entire life.

This is absolutely correct. I'm 40 and haven't played video games in a while until I started reliving my childhood thru MAME. After getting into MAME, I've been looking at new video games and have learned that with very few exceptions, the "new" games are the games I played when I was a kid, except with better graphics.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should think about consuming more good stories from other sources (books, movies,...). Relying on games for stories is inefficient. If you consume a lot of good stories, the bad or repetitive stories of Zelda and other games will stop mattering to you.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Anonymous Coward]

I never got on the Nintendo bandwagon either. Before the NES came out, I had been playing computer games on the Vic-20 and Commodore 64. The NES games were always so simplistic in comparison. They were polished and well done, but too shallow. Mario, Zelda, and Metroid never interested me.

This trend has continued with Nintendo. I'm used to playing deep, engaging games like Fallout, the D&D series games, Rainbow Six, Galactic Civilizations II, Oblivion, etc. Nintendo just doesn't offer anything like this. While I'm more inclined to play games on the PC, I did enjoy many console titles on the XBox and PS2 like the GTA3 series, Chronicles of Riddick, Mech Assault, and Mercenaries.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Dogtanian]

Look at the WarioWare series of games, for example. If WarioWare: Smooth Moves on the Wii isn't an example of "reinventing the entire story behind a game" then, please tell us, what out there is? See, the problem with WarioWare is that even if the game is new, it still uses characters from the Mario "universe" (*).

And I hate to say this, but I've *never* been able to stand Mario and friends. I can't put my finger on why exactly, they just grate. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the characters (Nintendo weren't that big in Europe until the SNES came out). But then, I hate Mickey Mouse too, despite being a fan when I was seven or so. And perhaps it's that (for me), Nintendo sometimes out-Disneys Disney in the worst way possible, with a healthy dose of Barney-style annoyingness thrown in... actually I'm not sure that's correct either, though.

Anyway, I'm glad that the DS doesn't seem to be overly reliant on the Mario franchise and Nintendo's kiddy-oriented past; I'd never have bought one if it had been.

Possibly someone will say that they enjoy playing Mario and "childish" games because they're past their adolescent obsession with "adult" sex and violence... but I don't like those games either. I like the games like Brain Training, Brain Age and so on- it's just that I find Mario genuinely childish. And believe me, for all that teenagers and adults enjoy indulging their childlike fun side with shows like Spongebob Squarepants (which can appeal to adults), when it comes down to something exclusively child-oriented like Barney the Dinosaur, it's not appealing to adults at all- at least not those who haven't grown up with it.

That's how I feel about Mario, and plastering the franchise (**) on a game is a near-guarantee that I won't want to buy it. Even hearing that Mario appears on the new DS version of Tetris is offputting.

Feel free to differ, but not all of us are Mario fans.

(*) Rather fanboyish expression, sorry.
(**) Damn, I hate that word too- or rather the new usage describing filmic and cultural "franchises" that has suddenly become so common in the past five or six years. (Ever notice that? In everyday speech, "franchise" always used to refer to some guy who got a license to run a Prontaprint photocopying shop, or whatever.) Even though it accurately describes the status of such things within Hollywood, it's still unpleasant- possibly for that exact reason. Or more likely because it makes us all sound like fanboys, and I hate that. Sorry, rant over :-/

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, as long as you are comfortable being completely prejudiced against things you apparently know nothing about, that's all that matters because there has never been a difference between informed opinion and willful ignorance.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Dogtanian]

Well, as long as you are comfortable being completely prejudiced against things you apparently know nothing about, that's all that matters because there has never been a difference between informed opinion and willful ignorance. Care to let me know specifically what I said that this is supposed to relate to? Actually, care to explain how it relates *at all* to a matter of personal opinon?

In all honesty, what you said has the vague air of a generic statement designed to elicit a response. In other words, you're a troll.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[byolinux]

WarioWare pretty much has its own universe. Aside from Mario Kart, Wario was only really in one or two games with Mario anyway.

If anything, Wario is the anti-Mario.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[toolie]

I'm used to playing deep, engaging games like Fallout, the D&D series games, Rainbow Six, Galactic Civilizations II, Oblivion, etc.

Did you seriously just say that Rainbow Six and Oblivion were both deep and engaging?

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical self-centered response. "You don't like it because you just don't understand it".. Uh huh, sure. You just keep believing that that your opinion is right and everyone who disagrees is simply "ignorant". Maybe it's the other way around, hmm?

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you need to re-read the comment? Yes, I did. Check out Rainbow Six 3 on the PC and actually PLAY the game before you pass groupthink judgment on it. There's planning, equipping, execution, numerous ways to complete missions. There's actual strategy involved, not just tactics. The console versions got the watered-down, more action oriented version of the game.

Oblivion seems to be the whipping boy de jour on this forum. Almost any game that is amazingly popular spurns a group of elitist folk on here who think they are "above the curve", so to speak, and that to agree that the game is as good as the herd thinks brings them down to that level. News flash: Oblivion deserves the high ratings it got. It is a deep game with hundreds of quests, multiple ways to complete most quests, a huge and beautifully designed world, hundreds of characters to interact with who have daily routines, and a decent storyline.

Compare with Nintendo's closest comparable offering, Twilight Princess, which strangely receives almost NO criticism whatsoever. Herd goats into a barn, read dialog that must've been written by a 10 year old. Get a load of these gems:

"Oh, Link! Didja hear?
They're selling a slingshot at the store right now! A SLINGSHOT!

MALO
I wonder how powerful it is... I... I need... I must try it..."

Thrilling. And people complain that Nintendo gets the kiddie-game image. However could that be? These games are obviously written with a younger gamer in mind, but people just flat-out refuse to accept that. Is 15 the average slashdot poster/moderator age? If so, it would explain a lot of things.

"Ohhhh...
I'm terribly sorry...but my mind is just filled with thoughts of my kitty right
now...
I'll bet he's getting pretty hungry about now... He's probably longing for a
fish fresh out of the river..."

Nothing says meaningful quest like some twit whining about their cat.

If you don't think RB6 and Oblivion are deep, just compare them to the alternatives and you'll laugh your ass off like I did.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Zixia]

I can see your point. From my point of view, the 'Mario' characters serve a good purpose for Nintendo. I bought Mario Strikers Charged Football for my Wii. I didn't buy it because I like football games, because I don't actually like football that much. I bought it because it had the 'Mario' title, so I knew that it wouldn't be a serious attempt to create a simulation game. It would be like football, but made fun. And that's how Nintendo uses the characters to their benefit, by defining the style of the games' content through the use of the characters.

On top of that, if you buy the 'Mario' games you get a whole host of characters whose traits are common from game to game. Mario is the all-rounder, Bowser is big and heavy, Toad is light and agile, and so on. You don't need to work out which character to pick to get certain attributes for each and every game.

So, yes, if you don't get on with Mario it can be quite the hurdle to overcome, as the character is used all over the place. But by using him Nintendo have genuinely created a credible 'universe' of characters.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Bega]

As for the Gamecube being a failure, well, if you go by the number of consoles sold then, sure, it wasn't as popular as the PlayStation 2, and was a "failure" but if you use that whacky profit metric that those crazy kids down at Wall Street are so fond of, the Gamecube did quite well.

But, OTOH, if you look at the consoles out there, how many of those are suitable for social gaming, like party games? The original Xbox tried with Fuzion Frenzy, which was a so-so attempt at a party game. PS2? Singstar and Guitar Hero, basically. Gamecube and Wii? Those are made for party games.

Of course, people say that "lol, the Wii doesn't have anything besides party games" - fine by me; party games is usually what defines a console for me; social gaming is fun, when you're a group of four, playing a game with each other in the same room.

This post is completely contradicting itself though; I'm posting on Slashdot, talking about Party Games and SOCIAL INTERACTION? GTFO my Slashdot!

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[ParaphiliaNOS]

Nintendo has already heard your voice. DS and all future handhelds will no longer use or invoke the "Gameboy" monkier.

-Not Otherwise Specified

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Floritard]

IMHO, the cutesy Disney-ish versions of Mario & Co. didn't really start until around Paper Mario on the N64. There was also a degree of it in Mario 64, but that was mostly due to the somewhat Jar-Jar voice they gave Mario (the character never spoke before that game). The N64 was a real turning point for Nintendo as they suddenly found most of their older players moving on to more "mature" stuff like sports and violence on the Playstation. Nintendo, always about their family image, chose to stick with titles for younger players like all that gay Pokemon shit someone is sure to burn in hell for. I've always liked the original feel of Mario, Zelda, etc. on the older consoles. They didn't really talk much, and the worlds in which they existed weren't so much children's fantasy as they were just plain weird. If you think about it, trampling mushroom people to death and ripping turtles out of their shells are pretty mean things to do. In fact, the majority of Mario, Zelda, and most every game you play is to kill whatever moves on the screen before it kills you, activities not likely to be condoned by the likes of Barney or Mickey Mouse.

Perhaps it was somewhat because of the graphics limitations of the pre-64 systems, allowing for less overly-expressive, flamboyant characters, but I think alot of it has to do with the storytelling. The old games weren't bogged down by pointless character dialogue or hand-holding. They could just be picked up and played by kids or adults alike. Much the same way an adult can enjoy a Pixar movie on a level more sophisticated than a child, I can go back to these games today and appreciate the complex gameplay of SMB or Zelda, and not be exhausted by the inane minutia of supporting characters that exist merely to put into play the game's next McGuffin, the kind of crap Nintendo began putting out with its 3D platformers on the 64, the Donkey Kong 64s and the Banjo Kazooies. In fact, I think Conker's Bad Fur Day was a direct result of that climate, a kind of send-up of those kiddie games, and I have to think it was made by people who were as fed up with the genre as I was.

Some of Nintendo's games have managed to stay cool despite being cartoony. Take Metroid for instance. In the newer Prime series, they've created a game that can be enjoyed by a player of any age, without going too mature or too childsafe with the material. The developer (a third party hired by Nintendo IIRC), really got the original tone of the Metroid games. While I love gory digital violence as much as the next guy, I particularly like this style of gameplay. If you can make me play a game that's safe for children, but not make me feel as though I'm playing a children's game, that's an accomplishment. No one really does that like Nintendo.

Re:Enough of Mario and Zelda

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? What about Yoshi's Island for the SNES? Or Super Mario World, for that matter? Or what about, well, all the illustrations of Mario from the NES era? Mario and Co. have always been Disneyfied. If anything, the cuter versions of the characters in Paper Mario are more Japanese and less Disney-esque than anything that came before.

Correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

LOOSING interest.

This is /. after all.

Re:Correction...

[realdodgeman]

Thanks for the correction. All we non-Americans really need your help...

Re:Correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because this is slashdot, I guess "the new direction Nintendo are taking" is also deemed to be correct.

Re:Correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say??

Re:Correction...

[Anonymous Coward]

the only direction slashdot are taking is the iPhone. So nobody pays attention to anything else.

Leave it to /.

[Anonymous Coward]

Figures. Leave it to /. to make a post about which hole it goes in.

Pet Rock, Wii, Disco

[Anonymous Coward]

Right there.

Yes.

[Leptok]

I like my roots.

Re:Yes.

[Ohreally_factor]

You just say that because you're to cheap to buy hydrogen peroxide. (Will a hair joke work on Slashdot?)

Not neglecting their roots

[Anonymous Coward]

They are simply growing branches.

Nintendo are Smart

[segedunum]

What they're trying to do is create an entertainment console that everyone, not just hardcore FPS gamers, can have a go at. There are far more ordinary people out there than hardcore gamers (that market is pretty much completely saturated), and this is probably why some people from Microsoft and Sony have got surprised and upset over the success of the Wii.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS3 is selling at roughly the same rate as the PS1 and a little behind the PS2. The PS2 continues to sell like mad with the largest and greatest library of games ever created for a console. Sony's PS3 has made BluRay the winner of the HD format battle and they will be getting royalties from every BluRay disc sold. Sony is selling now in the US over 400k consoles a month. Sorry, no one at Sony gives a damn about Nintendo's little sideshow. And from the absolutely pathetic E3 showing no third party developers give a damn either outside of last gen ports with waggle tacked on.

Oh, yeah, 480p waggle. Yeah, gotta hand it to Nintendo for managing to find quite a few suckers to rebuy their old console with a gimmicky controller added on. Not much of a five year strategy but it is amusing to watch the suckers line up for such a sad excuse for a console.

WiiFit! LOL!

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[bigman2003]

Quite a while prior to the Wii being released, Microsoft had the Xbox Live Arcade. They have been courting the 'casual' crowd for a while. They have had some success with it, (not as much as Nintendo) and it should not be forgotten.

When I was sick feverish stupor a few weeks ago, I played Catan for about 20 hours over a two day period. I played Luxor 2 this morning, and I am looking forward to some Bomberman tonight.

Nintendo fans are like Apple fans. They assume that their favorite company comes up with every concept they market. For instance, people who think that the browser on the iPhone is something wonderful and new have never seen Opera Mini.

The main difference with Nintendo right now is that they are PRIMARILY going after the casual market.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Kopiok]

Exactly. The "Hardcore" crowd feel like the casual market is muscling in on their market, and all games will now be just like Wii Sports, or Brain Training. They're afraid that this new market is so much bigger than them that it'll shut them out and the companies will lose any sort of focus on the games that they like to play. And they're pretty vocal about it, too. But, Nintendo has stated that they have not forgotten the Hardcore gamer and still have titles for them. They present Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Super Smash Bros, and Mario Kart as a sign that they have not forgotten. Some believe them and have faith, others still won't see it.

Nintendo is for EVERYONE, but some people can't see it.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[4iedBandit]

Nintendo fans are like Apple fans. They assume that their favorite company comes up with every concept they market. For instance, people who think that the browser on the iPhone is something wonderful and new have never seen Opera Mini.

I had Opera Mini on my Nokia. Safari on the iPhone blows it away.

Nintendo is going back to what Apple has gone back to: Making things that appeal to the majority, not just the dedicated, hard core minority. Making products that don't have the feature list of the competition, but doing things so well the competition can't stand up.

Other people are right. If Nintendo had tried to compete with Sony and MS on "their" turf, it would have lost. Instead they are going back to making fun games that appeal to a broader market. MS and Sony can duke it out in the feature list arena. Hard core gamers will still be able to get their fix. Nintendo has simply decided to persue a different market.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Anonymous Coward]

This plan could backfire on them. They'll sell a boatload of consoles, but casual gamers don't tend to buy a lot of games. I'm willing to bet there are a good percentage of Wii owners out there that only own the game that came with the system, it's been played out, and is now collecting dust.

This might not be such a problem for Nintendo, since they earn money on each console sold, but for third party developers who are now jumping on board thinking they'll sell millions of copies of each title, there might be a rude awakening. If they're smart, they'll hedge their bets and develop for all the consoles. In doing this though, they'll likely develop primarily for the PS3, XBox, or PC and then port to the Wii since it's easier to scale down graphics and remove effects than it is to add them. This leads to the half-assed port that we're used to seeing.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[LKM]

Nintendo fans are like Apple fans. They assume that their favorite company comes up with every concept they market.

Nintendo fans are like Apple fans in that they always get accused of being stupid, senseless fanboys spouting company lines. And no, Nintendo did not come up with every concept they market, but they clearly are the most innovative console hardware manufacturer.

For instance, people who think that the browser on the iPhone is something wonderful and new have never seen Opera Mini.

Huh? I use Opera Mini. It's nice, but really, there's no comparison to Safari on the iPhone.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[KDR_11k]

How about you stop pretending the Wii is just a fad and realize that if the PS3 doesn't shape up REALLY quickly it will be buried by that "OMG last gen" console? The PS3 is providing for noone, it lacks the userbase to attract games and it lacks the games to attract a userbase. The Wii is rapidly gaining dev support while the PS3 is losing it. Sony can talk all they want about next gen graphics, the market is proving them wrong. Besides, it's not like the PS3 isn't competing with the 360 either. That thing also has more games and users than the PS3 (and no, the difference in time on the market doesn't matter, devs don't plan their games out of fairness, they plan them for profit), even if the Wii doesn't eat into the PS3's market the 360 does and so far the superficial graphical differences, promises of "potential" (by the time that potential is realized they could have gotten much more powerful and easier to use hardware for cheaper) and support for a format noone needs aren't enough for the PS3 to overcome the 360.

Besides, the PS3 doesn't sell 400k every month. It did that much ONCE. Now it's at less than 100k.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[morari]

Hardcore FPS gamers use consoles? Not likely, unless you meant to say "Halo-loving frat boys".

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Ohreally_factor]

It's a really smart ju-jitsu type orthogonal move and the parallels to modern principles of warfare (which borrow heavily from some very old principles) are quite clear. In fact, a very basic principle of all war strategy is not to let the adversary pick the battleground. In this case, perhaps MS has been "scouting" the informal gamer territory, but Nintendo has concentrated a lot of force here, and now they (at least temporarily) own it. Now that they own it, they have considerable power to define it, which is a major force multiplier. And MS and Sony have so much invested into the hardcore gaming arena, it's going to be extremely difficult for them to reposition themselves (by releasing cheap consumer consoles). This will give Nintendo more time to consolidate its gains.

I think this miscalculation is especially telling of MS's ability to come up with a successful strategy and implement it. The whole raison d'etre for the Xbox was to get into the world's livingrooms via home entertainment appliances. MS correctly saw the strategic goal, but became entangled in battle with Sony for that market by directly competing with Sony on Sony's hard core gamer turf. MS has the resources for this sort of conventional business warfare and the jury is still out on whether Sony will hold on to the hard core gamer or lose to MS. But both MS and Sony have been blind sided by Nintendo, whom they foolishly dismissed.

This whole chapter is going to be standard reading in B-school textbooks for years to come. It's a perfect example of 4G Warfare theory being applied to the business battlefield.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Midnight Thunder]

Nintendo fans are like Apple fans. They assume that their favorite company comes up with every concept they market. For instance, people who think that the browser on the iPhone is something wonderful and new have never seen Opera Mini.

Coming up with an original idea is not that all the counts. Knowing how to package that idea in a format that appeals to the market counts just as much. You could ask the queation how original are original concepts, since few concepts a truly original and are simply improvements on what has gone before.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Anonymous Coward]

Guys, sorry for replying to my own post, but I feel really ashamed and kind've lost it for second.

I made the above post because i get so angry about the $600 I spent on my PS3, and the fact that after 9 months there are still no AAA games for it. Please excuse my trolling, I'm really sorry.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[CronoCloud]

It took a while for the PS2 to build up steam too. December of 2001 IIRC. And during the first year I saw lots of "teh PS2 is d00m3d" articles on Slashdot.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[CronoCloud]

Nintendo the most "innovative hardware" manufacturer? No, that award would go to Sega, or perhaps Sony.

Sega:

remember the Netlink?
The Nights controller?
The DC microphone
The DC web browser disk
The DC Ethenet gizmo

Sony:
Dual analog, no not the dual shock I'm talking about the BIG dual analog flightstick
the dualshcok
the Yaroze?
The PS2 Linux kit?
USB and Firewire on the PS2
Linux on the PS3?
The eyetoy
Voice recognition in games that worked?

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[poofyhairguy82]

How about you stop pretending the Wii is just a fad and realize that if the PS3 doesn't shape up REALLY quickly it will be buried by that "OMG last gen" console? The PS3 is providing for noone, it lacks the userbase to attract games and it lacks the games to attract a userbase. The Wii is rapidly gaining dev support while the PS3 is losing it. Sony can talk all they want about next gen graphics, the market is proving them wrong.

The success of the Wii will have a much smaller impact on the future of the PS3 (or even the 360) then you assume. The Wii is "winning" by going after a COMPLETELY different market than either of the other two.

Even if the Wii outsells the PS3/360 by a factor of two, not many huge traditional Xbox and PS franchises are going to "jump" to the Wii. The developers behind games like Grand Theft Auto, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, etc. will not be willing/able to move/port all of the multi-core powered cinematic glory of those two consoles to a box with less power than an AppleTV. The only thing that will change in the market is that all of the non triple A developers (the ones that make most of the crap that fills the game cases, but is never bought by those that know how to look up game reviews online) will be making crappy copies Wii Sports instead of crappy copies of Grand Theft Auto.

That said, I do think that the Wii will "win" this generation by a large margin. But in five years when the majority of the public has high def TVs, the Wii will be the most dated console within its lifetime the industry has ever seen...

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[gad_zuki!]

>What they're trying to do is create an entertainment console that everyone, not just hardcore FPS gamers, can have a go at

People already have one of these. Theyre called PCs and cellphones. Its like gamers refuse to acknowledge the power of cheap/free downloadable flash-type games. Thats what "non-gamers" play.

You dont need a dedicated 500 dollar piece of hardware to play a game. Once "gamers" understand this they'll see that casual players are everywhere.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[shoemilk]

Nintendo the most "innovative hardware" manufacturer? No, that award would go to Sega, or perhaps Sony.

Sega:

remember the Netlink?
The Nights controller?
The DC microphone
The DC web browser disk
The DC Ethenet gizmo

No, no, no, no, and no. Oh, these are Dream Cast things... (btw a web browser is software, even if it's on a disc)

Sony:
Dual analog, no not the dual shock I'm talking about the BIG dual analog flightstick
the dualshcok
the Yaroze?
The PS2 Linux kit?
USB and Firewire on the PS2
Linux on the PS3?
The eyetoy
Voice recognition in games that worked?

Half of your Sony list is software, not hardware.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[aliquis]

Thought I like Xbox Live Arcade and love the concept, how is that going after the casual market? What is different with it when it comes to bringing in new gamers? Simplier games?

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[aliquis]

Well, Apple fanboys ARE stupid when it comes to what they get for the price asked, atleast over here in Sweden. And I'm talking computers now, not telephones, music players or network equipment, thought I would never buy an iPod either.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[LKM]

Come on. There's nothing wrong with Sega or Sony. They've done great things for console gaming. But are you seriously claiming that Sega and Sony are more innovative than Nintendo, and trying to prove it with that list? You found five innovative things from Sega, among them a web browser and an ethernet connector? Eight things from Sony, among them a the innovation of including two analog sticks instead of one, running Linux on a console (twice), and a camera?

Maybe you're right. Maybe Sega and Sony were more innovative than Nintendo, despite being in the business for half as long. Unfortunately, your list most certainly doesn't show any of these innovations.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[aliquis]

I guess it's same old, earlier it was "Nintendo is just for kids" and now it's "Nintendo are only about waving around the control" when it's is and have always been about fun games which are easy to pick up. I don't care if it's pastell colors and you are riding a dinosaur, heck I even like it that way ;). Dark scenes with grown up graphics with lots of gore isn't that make a game a game for "adults", an intelligent game which pushes their skills are.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[KDR_11k]

PS2 had no competition during that time, it didn't lose anything by taking long to build up. The PS3's problem is that this time the 360 was the console with that particular advantage. The PS2 could sell badly for quite a long time before the competition would catch up but the PS3 has the other consoles running ahead and securing developer support. Look at the 360 now, it's selling quite slowly at the moment but because of its lead time has the most games so far and it'll take the PS3 a long time to catch up with it, if that ever happens.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[KDR_11k]

The Wii is appealing to a new market but it's not leaving the old market cold. Both Nintendo itself and several third parties are supplying games that regular gamers will play, too. One of the best selling games on the Wii was Red Steel, an overhyped launch FPS. Not the kind of game casual gamers buy. I really don't think there's this hard divide between "real" gamers and newcomers that no game can cross, the non-gamer specific games are just the gateway drug to sell games to more people.

Also it's funny that you mention Square-Enix, Rockstar and Konami since all of them have announced support for the Wii. Rockstar was even planning to put Manhunt 2 on the Wii as well but the AO rating stopped that one. While it's doubtful that the Wii will get the same games as the other systems it does get its own games from several of the traditional big series.

That said, I do think that the Wii will "win" this generation by a large margin. But in five years when the majority of the public has high def TVs, the Wii will be the most dated console within its lifetime the industry has ever seen...

The PS2 was looking quite terrible too but games sell more consoles than technical stats and the PS2 ended up as the console that got EVERY kind of game, no matter what you wanted. (cue Tepples complaining about the lack of four player support OOTB...)

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Anonymous Coward]

[tears hair out]
Nintendo IS smart

Christ. May the ghosts of English teachers past, present, and future haunt you tonight.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[SethraLavode]

How exactly would it backfire? The fact that the system is in that household in the first place significantly increases the chance that the household will buy another game. If the console isn't in usage, customers will go to find a new game, not just box up the system.

Nintendo sells the console at a profit, so they're already ahead on the balance sheet. Even if a customer only buys one game, they've still made money off of them.

If third-parties aren't smart enough to study the market and expect to sell millions of copies by default, then they have only themselves to blame. Especially if the title is a sloppy, hacked-together mess like many "cash-in" titles tend to be.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[SethraLavode]

The success of the Wii will have a much smaller impact on the future of the PS3 (or even the 360) then you assume. The Wii is "winning" by going after a COMPLETELY different market than either of the other two.

That might be how the advertising efforts are perceived, but according to reports, only 10% of current Wii owners did not own one of the previous-gen consoles (either lapsed gamers or non-gamers). The rest are "regular" gamers. Most likely, they owned a GameCube last time around, but there are several folks who are keeping their PS2 around (or replacing it with a slim) and added a Wii to their gaming stable.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[LKM]

Well, Apple fanboys ARE stupid when it comes to what they get for the price asked, atleast over here in Sweden. And I'm talking computers now, not telephones, music players or network equipment, thought I would never buy an iPod either.

Yeah. Buying what is the best tool for your particular job is so stupid. Do you realize how ironic it is to call Apple customers "fanboys," while also calling them "stupid" for choosing Apple and claiming that you "would never buy an iPod"? Who's the fanboy here?

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[CronoCloud]

you're forgetting the Sega Dreamcast.

Also there were many pundits that said, "Oh no one wants a game system that can play DVD's they want something cheap that's just games. Everyone will wait for the Revolution/Dolphin."

You'll see PS3 sales rise when the PS2 games dry up. RPG gamers have no reason to switch...yet.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[CronoCloud]

Yes, they added options to consoles that weren't there before, they took chances. And when it comes to the internal hardware Sega and Sony were quite willing to innovate and take risks.

Nintendo is a very risk averse company, especially in NTSC U/C territory.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[LKM]

Yes, they added options to consoles that weren't there before, they took chances. And when it comes to the internal hardware Sega and Sony were quite willing to innovate and take risks.

I thought we were talking about innovations, not about taking risks. That's not the same thing.

Nintendo is a very risk averse company, especially in NTSC U/C territory.

True, but see above, being risk averse does not mean that you aren't innovative. Quite the opposite, in fact. The biggest risk for Nintendo is to stagnate.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[hkmwbz]

But in five years when the majority of the public has high def TVs, the Wii will be the most dated console within its lifetime the industry has ever seen...

Outdated? Like DS? Anyway, in five years, Wii 2 will be out with HD support. Sorry dude.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[poofyhairguy82]

Outdated? Like DS?

Actually if you are counting portables, I think the Gameboy Micro is the least up to date. But I won't ever bash the DS- it is currently my favorite console in the world. It has just enough power for how big the screen is I think...

Anyway, in five years, Wii 2 will be out with HD support. Sorry dude.

Yeah, and that will be a new console. Not the current Nintendo Wii, which is what millions are buying. Who knows if this new market of gamers the Wii is picking up will stomach what traditional gamers have come to love- a new console every five years. Time will tell...

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[hkmwbz]

Just because the next Nintendo console is coming out in five years doesn't mean that Wii will suddenly die. PS2 is still very much alive, remember.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[segedunum]

Christ. May the ghosts of English teachers past, present, and future haunt you tonight.

I don't like grammar nazis when they get things wrong. Nintendo is not an individual. Nintendo is made up of individuals.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Moofie]

I used Opera Mini on my Treo. I got frustrated with its insistance on having a useless title bar that took up a fifth of my screen. What's so special about Opera Mini?

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[bigman2003]

People ooh and ahh over the iPhone's ability to view a web page in a very 'shrunk-down' format, then expand the text/graphics of the proper area to fill the screen and become legible. Opera Mini had this feeature for a while, and it works great.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Moofie]

Uh, OK. But Opera Mini still has a huge title bar that I couldn't get rid of, and the Treo's screen is smaller than the iPhone's.

So...again. Opera Mini is good...why?

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[bigman2003]

Your Treo has a smaller screen than an iPhone...and to somewhat quote you;

An iPhone has a smaller screen than my PC- and an iPhone is good...why?

Different strokes. Personally I don't use a Treo, I use a Samsung M1, which has an even smaller screen. I don't mind the screen size at all. I like the standard clamshell form-factor of the phone. I also like the fact that I can get data at least twice as fast on Sprint's network vs. using an iPhone on AT&T.

My point was not that the iPhone is bad. My point is that people get so excited about new things and they put on blinders to any other possibilities. Opera Mini is a very good browser.

If you watch iPhone commercials it seems that Apple is trying to give you the idea that they have the only phone based browser on the market that has the reduced-view to expanded-view feature. They aren't- in fact, Opera Mini will run on a phone you may already own!

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Moofie]

It's good...because my PC doesn't fit in my pocket. Why is that hard to understand?

Look, the iPhone has numerous issues. I'm not going to buy the first one, that's for sure. However, according to every person who seems to have touched one, the browser is the best one on the market.

From our conversation, I've tried installing opera mini on my phone. It's a massive pain in the ass. I'm hoping that it's improved from the last time I've used it, but it's hard to envision that it's going to be better enough to justify the trouble.

Apple seems to ME to be trying to give you the impression that they've got the only phone that has an accelerometer to sense the orientation of the phone, and adjust the display accordingly. And, you know what? They are. That's a good piece of UI design, and I think Apple is rightfully proud of it.

You might have confused me with an iPhone fanboy. I'm not. It's a very nice piece of design, that has a few critical features missing, so I have to stick with my Treo. Which, although it pisses me off on a daily basis, is still the best fit for my requirements.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[bigman2003]

I'm not sure how the install works on a Treo, but on my phone it was pretty easy. I went to their site, entered my phone number into a form...they sent me a text message with a link to the program. It downloaded, then started installing. During install they recognized my connection and then I was at the start page. It took about 5 minutes or so.

Re:Nintendo are Smart

[Moofie]

I went through two configuration wizards, one of which pointed me to a different Opera web site (that wasn't hyperlinked, by the way). Then I had to jump through the ridiculousness that is Java on Palm (again, because the flavor I had wasn't the right flavor).

And then, after all that? A browser with big-ass red bars at the top and bottom of the screen. Tell me again...why is this a good browser?

Who cares if they abandon it?

[Jartan]

"Nintendo has turned its back on hardcore gamers!" they cry. "The Nintendo we know is gone!" they shout. Poor Miyamoto just can't attain the elusive benefit of the doubt, no matter how many times he proves us wrong.

This made me pull a WTF? Proves us wrong? I'd say it's been pretty clear for a long while now that Nintendo has indeed pulled out of the hardcore section of the market. It's not like that will hurt the hardcore market though. Even in the unlikely event that they gain market dominance over the console market that will just shift some hardcore focus to the PC market where it belongs in the first place.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[SetupWeasel]

This made me pull a WTF? Proves us wrong? I'd say it's been pretty clear for a long while now that Nintendo has indeed pulled out of the hardcore section of the market.

If you had read the whole article, you would have seen that the writer made the point that Nintendo never aimed for the hardcore audience. "Hardcore" is a bullshit word anyway--a hallmark of geek pretension.

Miyamoto "proves us wrong," because he is often causing change for the better, but gamers, journalists, and developers question his vision at first.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[Koiu Lpoi]

Exactly right. The N64 era is well over for the consoles. Nintendo's trying for mass appeal, and it's obviously working.

And, how is it a bad thing at all? They're dominating the market, especially if you count the DS. No, I don't think too many people will be pissed off at Nintendo with things like Smash Bros. Brawl coming out, which has the appeal to both casual party gamers and to the hardcore.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[Anonymous Coward]

This whole argument seems to assume that hardcore gamers and casual gamers are non-intersecting sets. I believe that is outright wrong, and I believe I am a counterexample, here are my reasons: When my gaming computer was new, it cost close to $3000 in parts (read: $350 video cards, SLI'ed, for comparison Alienware wanted twice as much for a similar setup). Money-wise, I don't think many would argue that constitutes hardcore. I racked up over 110 days of playtime back on my WoW days over a period of 1.75 years. Before that, I played Counterstrike religiously and was a member of a top competitive clan. Dedication and time-wise, I think that constitutes hardcore. My gamer buddies and I frequently talk games and LAN parties and keep up on the latest releases (and have been woefully disappointed in the PC sector of late, hence why I said when my gaming computer was new). If this guy were correct you would not expect to find a Wii in my apartment, and you'd be dead wrong. In fact I have 6 Wii games and 4 controlers with nunchuks. Further, you would expect to find a PS3 and/or an Xbox360, and again you would be dead wrong. Hardcore gamers see the Wii as something new: we've experienced everything else and it's old-hat to us. Something new is what we really crave. I am very excited to see what game developers do with the Wii's controlers over the next 2-3 years, and as a hardcore gamer I laugh at the presses' idiotic ideas that the Wii doesn't appeal to us. And I am not alone, virtually every hardcore gamer I know either owns a Wii or wants one.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[mrbcs]

Agreed.

When is Lucas gonna make a light sabre game!!!!! I can't wait.. gonna have to try out one of the sword games I guess...

Knights of the Old Republic on Wii? Wicked!

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[Kopiok]

Prove us wrong as in: Metroid Prime 3, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[Saurian_Overlord]

I wouldn't say Nintendo was ever really in the hardcore market. They tried to get into it with the SNES, but censored versions of Doom and MK didn't cut it; the N64 got some titles that weren't expected on a Nintendo system (i.e. Goldeneye); I think the Gamecube kept up the best in that area. But I wouldn't say they're letting go of the small hold they have in that market.

...hardcore focus to the PC market where it belongs in the first place.

Damn right. I don't know anyone who calls himself a "hardcore gamer" and counts on Nintendo for his favorites; anyone who considers theirself "hardcore" is going to have multiple consoles and probably a PC as well. They do not and will never expect GTA or Halo on a Nintendo system.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[Glytch]

If you want lightsaber fighting, take a look at No More Heroes. If the control scheme can live up to the promises of the developers, it's going to be amazing.

Re:Who cares if they abandon it?

[Ohreally_factor]

When is Lucas gonna make a light sabre game!!!!! I can't wait.. gonna have to try out one of the sword games I guess... Are you retarded? Swords will fucking cut you wide open!

Remember Trip Fisk's Three Ds the next time you are tempted by a sword:

Dead - As in that is what you will be if you mess with swords

Dying - As in that's what your friends and family are going to be doing if you buy a sword.

Don't - fucking touch swords.

(Sorry about the profanity, but it was necessary to preserve the artistic integrity of the video.)

I Have a Bigger Complaint

[tompatman]

When will there be a store which actually has a Wii for sale to go along with their fancy store display?

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Hangtime]

Damnit, I don't have points are you would getting some right now. I have never even SEEN a Wii console for sale, PERIOD. I think this whole Wii thing is a government conspiracy. They don't actually exist. ;)

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[kevorkian]

Target , sunday mornings .. as a matter of fact I just came from my local target , they still had 5 and I watched 2 get sold while I was in the dept.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, way to make yourself look like an idiotic fanboy.

Want a Wii? Walk into any store in any major city and buy one. There were five or six sitting at the BestBuy I stopped by last night gathering dust.

Bit of advice for the future, sitting online and posting bullshit about 'my favorite console is sold out everywhere' does absolutely nothing.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[ocularDeathRay]

yup thats how I got mine about 2 weeks after new years. target on sunday morning. they had 20 or 30 of them. sold out in 15 minutes.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Danse]

Want a Wii? Walk into any store in any major city and buy one. There were five or six sitting at the BestBuy I stopped by last night gathering dust. Lucky you. None of the BBs in my city have them in stock. Neither does ToysRUs, Target, Wal-Mart, or Circuit City. They say they don't usually know when they'll get a shipment or how many they'll get, and they sell out within a matter of hours. So, unless I want to show up each morning when the doors open, then I probably won't be getting one anytime soon. I've had several people at work ask me where they can get a Wii. I just tell them to start showing up at the stores early and hope for the best.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Vellmont]

I bought one at target a couple months ago. Look for the Sunday ads, they'll have them in stock when they advertise. I went fairly early in the morning (9am maybe) to get one, but I did notice they still had several of them available at perhaps 2pm the same day, so you don't have to be one of those insane people that lines up outside the store at 5am.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Poromenos1]

Really? Here (Greece) every store has one or two, it's relatively unknown here (everyone knows the PS, maybe the xbox), but when they play a game of Wii tennis everyone wants to go buy one, so I'm betting everyone will know it before long on viral marketing alone.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[despisethesun]

A friend of mine just bought one and he had a really difficult time finding one in most of the big electronics stores, game shops and department stores. He wound up going to Toys R Us and he said they had tons of them there. Apparently people don't think to go there for video games very often (I don't know why, every time I've gone they've had at least as large a selection as Best Buy), so if you want to pick one up, Toys R Us might be the place to check.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Wow, way to make yourself look like an idiotic fanboy.

Wow, way to "discredit" a person with an ad hominem attack.

Want a Wii? Walk into any store in any major city and buy one. There were five or six sitting at the BestBuy I stopped by last night gathering dust.

I'm sorry, but that person's experience mimicks mine as well. While I'm not actually looking for them, I do notice that the actual console is almost conspicuously missing. I've been to a few stores each of Best Buy, Wal*Mart, Target, Game Stop (or whatever they are called now, I don't pay attention to the name anymore), etc, and I've never seen it for sale. This is in a metropolitan area with about a million people.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[barjam]

What is the phone number/address of this best buy in question?

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[KDR_11k]

In my area they are ubiquitous and they even give them away for free with a cellphone contract. It also has the largest shelf space for its games of any of the current gen consoles so that doesn't seem to be because of a total lack of interest.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Midnight Thunder]

Looking for a Wii is like looking for a girlfriend: you will find one when you aren't looking. My experience has been that I have been popping into stores every once in a while and always being told that thy have none in stock and to check back frequently. The other day I walked into Futureshop, here in Canada, to buy a phone and didn't find one I wanted and on the way out decided to check when the next batch of Wiis were to be in stock. The sales guy told me that he happened to have two in stock, so I bought one there and then - I wasn't going to miss that opportunity.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

saw four in target this morning in Circuit City in Gaithersburg, MD.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[arkhan_jg]

They're now widely back in stock in the UK. I'm guessing you're in the US, so a PAL version probably isn't what you're after.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Maltheus]

It may be harder in some parts of the country than others, but I found it real simple to buy a Wii. Pick up a phone book and call half a dozen stores (Walmarts seem to get them regularly in my town). Then go to the store and buy it. I've talked to a number of frustrated people who travel all over town and waste their time looking instead of phoning ahead first. I had one in my hands within 30 minutes of making the decision to buy one. Everyone I know who has one did it this way. I'm almost thinking I should start selling them on E-Bay.

Re:I Have a Bigger Complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a lying fanboy troll with a transparent fanboy motive.

You will never post the phone number, location, or store number of the Best Buy store that you claim to have visited last night. A call to any Best Buy phone number you would attempt to provide would reveal that, only one day later, all those "dusty" Wiis you describe have suddenly since been sold (somehow).

A bit of advice for the future: Sitting online and posting bullshit that the Wii isn't popular serves no positive purpose. The only result: History now has record of how absurdly desperate the anti-Nintendo folks are these days in their efforts to deceive.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are they neglecting their roots when they (a) still have a string of games coming out for wii based on classics like Zelda, Mario, Metroid, etc. and (b) they use the wii as a platform to sell the original games online.

Cart, horse, etc

[freeweed]

Yeesh. Hardcore gamers are still struggling to "get" the Wii in the first place. Every single Wii story on Slashdot since November has been littered with the following post, usually modded up by another gamer (mix and match sentences as appropriate):

"Yeah, Nintendo may make a few dollars from Grandma, but I'm a hardcore gamer. I bought one on release and there just aren't any good games that I like now. I've gotten bored of it and it's collecting dust in my closet. I'm back to playing GTA for the 14th time on my PS2. I'm selling my Wii as I wait for MGS to come out for PS3. The Wii's graphics look dated, come on Nintendo, you're going to lose my dollars here! I don't see what the big deal is with the Wiimote, it's just a gimick and will rapidly become boring to people. I'm already sick of the Wiimote and wish Nintendo would release some good 70-hour long RPGs."

Etc, etc, etc.

The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE. By the end of the summer there will be more Wiis out there than 360s (the next largest market). And Nintendo still can't keep these things in stock. All with "no good games" to buy.

No shit the hardcore gamers don't understand the new games - hell, they never understood the old games in the first place (ie: why any of us enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as we did - the Wiimote was just a gimick, right??).

Now to watch people respond to this post with exactly the dialog I quoted above ;)

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[nomadic]

The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE. By the end of the summer there will be more Wiis out there than 360s (the next largest market). And Nintendo still can't keep these things in stock. All with "no good games" to buy.

I think they understand that the Wii is outselling everyone; if they don't understand the popularity, that's not necessarily some intellectual flaw, but rather just represents a different taste.

Like a quick glance at the neilsen ratings website reveals the top three most watched TV shows last week were a baseball game, a game show, and a reality TV show. I, personally, don't understand how anyone could enjoy any of those things. Does this mean that I don't know that they're popular, or refuse to believe that people will continue to like them? Of course not.

If the Wii comes to completely dominate the industry, there's a good chance a lot of really first-rate, complicated, serious games will never be released, in favor of hundreds of Wii sports clones.

And speaking of understanding, I continue to not really understand the long-standing slashdot rhetorical device of creating hypothetical critics. Isn't enough to make a point without also going into a detailed description of the people who you think will inevitably attack your post? This practice seems most common when people take an extremely popular viewpoint, it's like they're so nervous about being in the majority, that they try to paint themselves as brave underdogs attacking the status quo.

95% of the people on slashdot seem to be rabid Nintendo-can-do-now-wrong Wii supporters, yet that 95% continues to insist that there's this huge horde of pro-Sony/MS fanboys, who never seem to actually show up.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Squarewav]

I'd like to think of myself as a hardcore gamer. My first thought of the Wii-mote was that it was a gimmick, however after using it I can see a lot of potential in it. My problem with the Wii at this point is the lack of RPGs and online games. A lot of people complain about how too many of the games are ps2/gcn ports that doesnt bother me as I was heavy into MMOs and missed many of them when they first came out.

The complete lack of online play is whats bothering me the most. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good single player game, like zelda, super paper mario ect. However after I beat the games they go back on the shelf and collect dust as have little reason to play them again. When looking for a Wii game that can hold my attention past the first runthru of single player they are no ware to be found. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing anything about it they cut online out of the new metroid and flat out ignore questions about downloadable content for any games. 3d party games seem to be waiting for nintendo to setup a xbox live or playstation network type system before making any online games. Its not like online is some new gimmick function of the xbox its been around sense dreamcast on consoles and PCs well before that

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[UbuntuDupe]

why any of us enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as we did - the Wiimote was just a gimick, right??

I don't know if this was your point, but yes, for Z:TP, the Wiimote did seem bolted on. It simply replaced what would otherwise be button pushing, and really only checked for a "shake". It was a great game, of course, but didn't really exploit the Wiimote's abilities. (If they had made it so you have to "pull back" to load an arrow, then I might have swooned.)

Many games do seem to use the acceleromter stupidly, and in a way that looks artificial. But at the same time, I've seen some really good uses of it. Trauma Center uses it for a defibrilator and turning screws, which feels strangely realistic. Red Steel uses it for the blocking motion (which makes blocking more intuitive, since you instinctively raise your hands anyway) and for zooming in and slowing down time, which does feel like a genuine interface improvement. Rayman was also pretty creative in, for example, how you have to use the wiimote to "smack" bunnies or beat to a rhythm.

But even the pointer feature by itself tremendously expands the interface capabilities in games.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Squarewav]

I admit some games thats all its used for (I'm lookig at you paper mario and Prince of Persia)

However the setup allows for the benefits of a game controller (comfortable to hold and use for long periods of time) with near the accuracy of a mouse. (you can actualy aim with it at a speed matching a mouse then the old whatever speed the analog stick can with classic controllers)

It can do far more then just replace a button with a wiggle

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[imsabbel]

>The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE. By the end of the summer there will be more Wiis out there than 360s (the next largest market). And Nintendo still can't keep these things in stock. All with "no good games" to buy.

And YOU dont understand that the total amount of sale doesnt mean shit if i dont fit into the target demographic.

Also, in the same line, linux guys dont understand that windows outsales everbdoy, and firefox guys dont understand that IE still outsells everybody, and MAC/PC, Fastfood/real food, ect ect.

And another argument: The WII shouldnt be compared to 360/PS3 at all. Price, hardware capabilites (SD, the same old GC hardware), storage medium, they all make it fit much mroe into the PS2/Xbox group. And in that group, it still will have quite some work to do until it can get the majority of share,

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Udderdude]

RPGs take serious time investments, exactly what Nintendo is trying to avoid.

Online games are by their nature very competitive and tend to be full of aggressive, generally mean people. They figure people would rather have friends over to play, rather than play against some 12-year old spewing profanities like you would see on XBox Live.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[DFDumont]

>And YOU dont understand that the total amount of sale doesnt mean shit if i dont fit into the target demographic.

And YOU clearly don't understand that Nintendo is a business out to make money. They do this by selling product, and one of the things that has kept many a game OUT of the hands of an entire demography is their parents! Since you're likely in that in between age, neither a child nor a parent, I'll enlighten you slightly:

Parents don't want their children spending endless hours in front of a television.
They want them exercising, and Wii provides a bridge to satisfy both needs.

Yes its not the fully immersive play we've been wanting. Yes it's a bit light on (what you call) good games, but you simply forget that parents buy games for their 12-year-olds, not vice-a-versa.

Dennis Dumont

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say it's actually even better for aiming than a mouse. Getting headshots in an FPS on the Wii is trivial even with crosshairs disabled. Just point at some guys head and fire. It's also much easier to track a moving target with the wiimote.

Although I guess part of my bias toward the wiimote is because I do a good bit of trap shooting and this sort of thing just comes naturally to me.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[rhizome]

If the Wii comes to completely dominate the industry, there's a good chance a lot of really first-rate, complicated, serious games will never be released, in favor of hundreds of Wii sports clones.

If you don't regret this statement yet, you should. It's dumb.

95% of the people on slashdot seem to be rabid Nintendo-can-do-now-wrong Wii supporters, yet that 95% continues to insist that there's this huge horde of pro-Sony/MS fanboys, who never seem to actually show up.

From what I've seen, most of the PS/XBox market is not in the Slashdot demographic, they're in the Jerry Springer/Adam Sandler/NASCAR one.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Glytch]

I think every self-described hardcore gamer who dismisses the potential of the wiimote should sit down with a copy of Twilight Princess and a savegame with the hero's bow already acquired. If they can't have fun shooting things for half an hour and still still complain about how the wiimote doesn't add anything to the game, then they've obviously suffered severe brain damage and any other opinions they hold can thus be appropriately gaged.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Bodrius]

Heh. I'd have to disagree with you on the wants of parents, but I guess I'm more cynical than some - the success of television, and in turn videogames, is because parents DO want their children to spend countless hours in a known location, on a known passive activity, that requires minimal attention on their part and carries no/low physical risk.

What the Wii provides, though, is a game experience that the non-gamer parents (and others) can understand and engage in.
Once again they can use 'buying it for the kids' as an excuse, rather than the painful truth that is demonstrated one each embarrassing attempt at using the device.

I doubt that happened very often in families since the days of arcade and Atari / Intellivision / etc.
Picking up GTA3 / Halo is not the same thing in terms of time-commitment: both skills and culture require some time investment to be barely competent, let alone enjoy the game.

I do find the target demographic argument being funny: if your target demographic doesn't buy your product, and a bigger demographic does... well, Hello, New Target Demographic!

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[brkello]

No one is struggling to "get the Wii". Some people, not "hardcore", just some gamers don't like the Wii. People who are fans of RPGs don't see anything really compelling on the Wii. What's wrong with this? This isn't about getting the Wii...it's about wanting games on the Wii that fit in with what they like. Let the suits and the fanboys celebrate Nintendo's console selling out everywhere. That's great for the people who love the Wii. But that doesn't mean people can't still criticize the system. It seems that people have a short memory of all the stupid and evil things Nintendo has done in the past. I grew up with the Nintendo...I love them. But don't whine about people who actually have the guts to lose karma by saying something that isn't worshiping the Wii.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[nomadic]

If you don't regret this statement yet, you should. It's dumb.

That's quite a convincing argument. You don't think we haven't seen that sort of thing before, again and again and again? Atari's dominance in the late 70's/early 80's and their subsequent implosion set the video game industry back several years. Nintendo's dominance in the mid-to-late 80's created a situation where for a long time game developers concentrated on platformers. Doom in the early 90s gave us a decade of way too many FPSes. How on earth can you deny that the game industry is obsessed with fads and spends most of their energy trying to copy each others successes?

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

> Hardcore gamers are still struggling to "get" the Wii in the first place.

"Hardcore" is apparently anyone who's ever owned a console in a previous generation. This is perfectly pathetic. I understand the need to differentiate one's brand, but this hardly constitutes some kind of elite.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[LKM]

No one is struggling to "get the Wii".

Thousands of "the Wii is just a fad, [PS3|360] will win this war in the end" comments disagree with you.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Kjella]

And Nintendo still can't keep these things in stock.

I'm sorry, but that's no longer true. I went by an electronics store the day before yesterday, and they had like 10 in stock. If I look at my favourite price comparison site for Norway then 5/15 stores have them in stock with two in the 50-100 stock bin and two in the 100+ stock bin. Any particular store may be sold out but there's no problem getting a Wii now.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Ohreally_factor]

If the Wii comes to completely dominate the industry, there's a good chance a lot of really first-rate, complicated, serious games will never be released, in favor of hundreds of Wii sports clones.

If you don't regret this statement yet, you should. It's dumb. No, it's actually a pretty intelligent statement. Blockbuster games on Sony and MS consoles have insanely huge budgets that are only justified by the even more insanely huge profits. If Wii games eat into those profits (which by all accounts it should), there will be less justification for the big game developers to focus all their resources on the blockbuster candidates. Also, the big game developers are going to want a piece of the Wii pie. Any dollar they spend to develop games for the Wii is one less dollar for their risky big investments. It only makes sense that they'd want to spread the risk.

So, the upshot is that there will be fewer mega budget games. They won't go away (have mega budget movies gone away?), but the formula has definitely taken a hit.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

Shall I feel free to paraphrase you, then, as a Nintendo apologist who, like all the others, quotes the Wii's console sales figures as their sole argument?

"Wii console sales figures are high so who cares about hardcore gamers who buy twelve games a year when you can have twice the number of consoles out in the market, owned by casual gamers who buy two games a year!"

Etc, etc, etc.

Gaming has always been about the games. Buy the console that has games you like. I usually decide which console's a safe buy at the moment by getting the average of the top 20 all time scores on Metacritic. Sure, this makes the odds slightly in favour of the console that releases earliest but that's fair, right? From the last generation, the scores are PS2:94.55, XBox:93.15, GC:93.00. PS2 has more A-grade but not by much.

The current scores for the next generation systems are 360:88.30, PS3:82.75, Wii:78.15. The 360 has some awesome games out, the PS3 is getting there, and the Wii is flailing in the games stakes. Funnily enough, the figures state ourtight what you claim pathetic hardcore gamers are ranting about. Maybe they have a point?

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[VGPowerlord]

No shit the hardcore gamers don't understand the new games - hell, they never understood the old games in the first place (ie: why any of us enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as we did - the Wiimote was just a gimick, right??).

That's probably why I have the GC version and, despite having a Wii, have no intention of buying the Wii version.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[bogjobber]

No shit the hardcore gamers don't understand the new games - hell, they never understood the old games in the first place (ie: why any of us enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as we did - the Wiimote was just a gimick, right??).

No, the hardcore gamers understand the new games perfectly well. They just don't like them, because they aren't meant for them. They still like the old way of playing games, and for better or worse Nintendo has changed that with the Wii. Don't be an asshole and claim like you're somehow smarter because you like the Wii better than somebody else. Different strokes and whatnot.

And the Wiimote *was* just a gimmick on Twilight Princess. The game was completely playable without it. It was hardly essential to the game, it was sort of tacked on at the end to make it a Wii game. That doesn't mean Twilight Princess sucked, far from it. It was a cool game, but I didn't even use the Wiimote. I preferred the GC controller.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[trdrstv]

My first thought of the Wii-mote was that it was a gimmick, however after using it I can see a lot of potential in it. My problem with the Wii at this point is the lack of RPGs and online games.

No console launches with an RPG (Zelda's not an RPG) nor do they get them within the first year of the console's life... They simply take too long to produce. To my knowlege Oblivion is the one exception, and that came 6 months after launch.

Online gaming has started on the Wii and will expand, but it hasn't mature yet. Pokemon & Mario Strikers are online now, Madden & FIFA 08 will be online, Guitar Hero III, Battalion Wars, & Mario Kart also. Medal of Honor Heroes 2 is touting up to 32 players online...

So it may not have what you are looking for now, but it is coming...

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[dlanod]

If they bought the Wii on release, Nintendo's not worrying about losing their money because Nintendo's already got their money. One of the many advantages of making a profit on the hardware, not just the games.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[toolie]

I'm sorry, but that's no longer true. I went by an electronics store the day before yesterday, and they had like 10 in stock. Yay for anecdotal 'data'! I was in Game Stop Saturday morning as they opened (getting a wheel for the 360, nothing to do with the Wii) and a guy came in right before me asking if they had any Wiis in stock. The guy replied the entire valley (Phoenix) was still sold out and no clue when the next shipment would arrive.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[TuringTest]

But even the pointer feature by itself tremendously expands the interface capabilities in games. ...on par with PC games. Seriously, playing Wii Play or Zelda with the wiimote and nunchuk resembles too much playing a FPS with left hand on keyboard and right hand on the mouse. I'm yet to play Trauma and Rayman and eager to test the long-term possibilities of the Wii controls, from which Wii Sports is just a tech preview.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[trdrstv]

I think every self-described hardcore gamer who dismisses the potential of the wiimote should sit down with a copy of Twilight Princess and a savegame with the hero's bow already acquired. If they can't have fun shooting things for half an hour and still still complain about how the wiimote doesn't add anything to the game, then they've obviously suffered severe brain damage and any other opinions they hold can thus be appropriately gaged.

Or RE4. The Wii controls work wonderfully, and it IS the best version of a truly great game.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[DDLKermit007]

The big problem I see with your logic is that yes they will make a few bucks off grandma, but collectively grandma, and the rest of the crazy casual market make up in sheer numbers a whole lot more money than hardcore gamers. Just look at Pokemon for instance. Hardcore gamers could all band together to support some uber awesome FPS, and NEVER come even close to the purchasing power of little kids, their parents who buy a starter deck to play with their kids, the hardcore of Pokemon, etc. Face it my friend. The hardcore are a market someone in the game industry will always cater to, but we are small beans compared to the mass market. Nintendo knows how to fawking make money. N64, and Gamecube were utter failures in the hardcore segments eye's yet Nintendo made a crapload of money on both consoles while MS & Sony still haven't broken even for their endeavors during the same periods.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Chosen Reject]

Why is it that you can't have a mega budget game on the Wii? I fail to see how no mega budget on PS360 means no mega budget games at all. Developers are just getting into the Wii. They are still exploring the possibilities of the Wii-mote. Give them time and some really cool games that cannot be done without it will come around OR we will all find out that the Wii-mote offers nothing and it will be a one generation thing to not be worried about. I'm looking forward to what it offers as I think it really can offer something that can't be offered any way else. The next generation will have all three major consoles having something to do with motion sensing. It's just the way things are going.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Chosen Reject]

exactly what Nintendo is trying to avoid.

Wrong. That's what this whole article is about, and what it fails to realize. Nintendo isn't trying to move the market, it's trying to expand the market. Before the Wii came out a lot of developers/publishers thought it wouldn't sell. Now that it's been out for 7 months and has nearly passed the 360 in sales developers are realizing that people are buying it and they would be foolish not to develop for it. In that rush to get something out, we're going to initially see a lot of ports and simple quick games. Over time however, there will be some companies that will produce games that take longer to develop. There will be more of the games that have been around for years, but there will also be fun, easy to learn, quick to play games.

Nintendo isn't trying to avoid the "hardcore*." Quite the opposite, they want to appeal to them AND the casual. The long games will come out, but it takes time. Gears of War was started long before the X360 was released, but few developers really thought the Wii would sell like it has, so there is nothing equivalent** to Gears yet.

*I'm defining "hardcore" here to include nearly every definition I can think of. Some of those definitions include:

1. people who love games and play them all the time
2. people who want only the most shiniest of graphics
3. people who want only mature content
4. people who want games that are 100 hours long
5. people who want artsy stories

**By equivalent I mean development time.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Ohreally_factor]

OK, you make a fair point. I was assuming that Wii development costs will be lower, and that's a hasty assumption. Still, if the cost threshold for development is low (which I admittedly don't know for a fact), there will be more competition, making mega budget investments in single games riskier. However, if we look for parallels in Hollywood, the resurgence of low budget and indy films hasn't really slowed or decreased mega budget movies. When a movie hits, it generally really hits, making the risk worth it.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Chosen Reject]

Can you explain your sig?

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[Ohreally_factor]

Yes. I could.
.
.
.
.

Oh, you mean right now! It's a movie quote from Repo Man. The lobotomized scientist driving around with dead aliens in his trunk says it to Emelio Estevez.

Re:Cart, horse, etc

[buffer-overflowed]

Well, PC is generally WASD + pointer. An analog stick is better than WASD. So, the Wii could actually control a little better than standard PC controls.

If you didn't pick up Trauma Center on the DS, definately get it for the Wii. It's a fantastic, downright odd and quirky, game.

This is just silly

[Borealis]

Nintendo isn't the only one making games for the Wii. Not to mention that the point of any game system is to amuse and entertain, something that nintendo seems to have realized very well. If nintendo were to go out and forbid third party developers from making shooters or RPGs that'd be one thing, but frankly this is like accusing McDonalds of not catering to salad lovers when they introduce a new burger. If you don't like McDonald's salad offerings go buy a salad from some place else, and in the meantime, try that new triple bacon 4 cheese double quarter pounder and see if you like how it tastes.

Re:This is just silly

[Anonymous Coward]

mmmmmm...triple bacon

Depends on who you ask...

[DrEldarion]

Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots? That all depends on who you ask. For grandma who wants to play Big Brain Academy, no, it's not a bad thing. For video game enthusiasts? I'd say so.

Listen, Nintendo. I'm glad you made a console with a new controlling mechanism. I'm glad you're moving towards casual play. I love my Wii when I have parties or friends over. It's not a gamer's console, though. I don't want to sit around flailing the Wiimote for an hour straight. I don't want motion sensing forced into control schemes it has no place in. I want the long, deep storylines. I want the high-definition graphics.

The Wii is great in social conditions, but just for sitting around by yourself, the 360 and PS3 shine far brighter.

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[jrieth50]

Playing Wii in large groups during parties isn't gaming now? Gaming is defined by a fat, lazy, Rockstar chugging, "hardcore" fanboy sitting on his couch all day smelling up his living room? Or did you move your PS3 on top of the mini-fridge in your bedroom?

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between being a "gamer" and a "loser". Either you're being intentionally obtuse or you're just a moron. I'm betting on the latter.

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[popejeremy]

"The Wii is great in social conditions, but just for sitting around by yourself, the 360 and PS3 shine far brighter."

That's true. The 360 shines really brightly when it spontaneously catches on fire.

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[Anonymous Coward]

3rd option - you could be a moron for not reading the comment and picking up on such subtleties as question marks and sarcastic exaggeration.

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[frizzantik]

Wow freeweed's post was oddly prescient!

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[Shabadage]

Maybe you don't want to wave your hands around, but for me; the fact that I can literally point at a target in an FPS and shoot makes me love it. Now if someone would just make a DECENT FPS I'd be stoked. That's been my main thing about the Wii since I learned of the controls. Give me Timesplitters 2 on the Wii (With the Wii controller, not the GC) and I'll cream my pants.

But yeah, I see your point. WiiWaggle != Gameplay. Shit, there's entire mini-game collections dedicated to waggling it. The problem is that they're selling, even the horribly gimmicky controls (Ultimate Alliance). Ninty kinda shot themselves in the foot by not including a classic controller with the system; you can bet that if they had, we would be seeing many more games that support it.

I fully believe in the controller though, it's the computer accessory of the year. I've been playing all sorts of games with it (Thanks to GlovePIE's scripting). Shit, even if you just want a wireless remote for your computer, the WiiMote is the way to go, as it's the cheapest on the market. If I can script decent controls for nearly everything, WTF is holding back Devs? They have software that LEARNS control schemes for crap's sake.

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[Yvan256]

The 360 shines really brightly when it spontaneously catches on fire.

That's a very lame troll if I ever sa.... oh crap. FIRE! FIRE! EVERYBODY OUT!

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[twinberettas]

"I want the long, deep storylines. I want the high-definition graphics."

You want books and movies.

Re:Depends on who you ask...

[hkmwbz]

It's not a gamer's console, though.

Why not? Does it not have games? Who is this "gamer" who can't play games on Wii?

I don't want to sit around flailing the Wiimote for an hour straight.

You don't have to. You can make smaller motions in most games if that's what you want.

I want the long, deep storylines.

You get those on Wii too, and more games like that are on the way.

I want the high-definition graphics.

Why? What's the point? Is that what makes you a gamer?

Relics?

[RyanFenton]

So, Nintendo wants to try something REALLY new with this machine of theirs, outside of the usual multiple-choice stories with little educations of social value of most console developers, and this article slams them for that. These reviewers want more progress of the arts, and not so much progress of the _useful_ arts. Fine. But calling the new Mario/Zelda/Metroid games relics, as if they're just a rehash? I'd highly disagree with that - the new Zelda games, for instance, on the DS and Wii, just with the control alone have very much changed the very feel of the games. Not that each aren't sequels, but the rate of change over previous sequels is relatively huge in this generation, and in every case I've seen and played has been an unusual improvement for what I want out of pure artistic/storytelling/interactive gaming.

Yes, we're not seeing many new protagonists this first generation of first party games from Nintendo for the Wii. Nintendo is playing it safe in their newly reformed gaming environment. So, they gauge the response to this first generation, and try to maximize the latent demand for existing worlds of imagination before making new ones... I definitely understand that process. That means they aren't gamblers going for broke, they wait until there's standing capitol for a venture before letting the allotment of risk increase. They also get to spend more time in development in play testing and improvement this way... which has certainly played out well for the end result, from what I've played so far.

Want to call Zelda, Mario, Metroid relics? That's fine. It's ad-hoc, but a valid opinion if you want to always prefer newly created worlds. But give them a chance if you ever want to try some of the most finely refined mix of new gameplay elements and old out there. I still appreciate such 'relics'.

Ryan Fenton

Re:Relics?

[king-manic]

Nintendo isn't doing anything new. All of this was done before by them. The Power glove. They just came up with an implementation that doesn't suck. Right place, right time, right product. But "new" and "innovative" it is not. just "right".

maybe they just want to get the board out there.

[bombastinator]

I have to say I disagree with the writer's conclusion here.

Nintendo is "oriented" in the same direction all companies are orientated: making the bucks. To do that they have to have a product people prefer over that of the competition, and right now they've got one.

Nintendo discovered itself with a game player capable of things other players could not previously do. If you take away the new control interfaces however the Wii has very little on the playstation 2 let alone the playstation 3.

Nintendo may realize that they have to capitalize on these advantages, and are attempting to do so. XBOX and Playstation six axis game controllers are already in development. The Wii could lose it's spec ial charms at any time. What they have at the moment is the opportunity to get a jump on the competition with new interface formats and new game styles. We may be seeing a frantic research project on the part of Nintendo to find a way to get a lock on the "new thing" while they still have exclusive access.

A surf or skateboard game would seem to be very preferable over a yoga game, but they don't have to make one. They just have to get the board into the marketplace before microsoft. I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. Where they make the money is not by making a semi-popular game with a controller that is probably a wash profit wise. They make it when "Tony Hawke" comes out for their patented controller and everyone's got to buy a Wii so they can play it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.

I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.

If I was a troll ...

[Tx]

"Where the Wii Fits In"

I'd love to tell you exactly where the Wii fits, but this is a family show ;).

Re:If I was a troll ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lighten up, Moddy.

Sheesh!

(oh and I'm an enthusiastic Wii owner...can I troll myself?...only Moddy can tell)

Re:If I was a troll ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you...I went down one step at a time from a 4 threshold to a 1 in order to find your comment about "where the Wii fits in". Everyone else is so intense arguing over advertising, I was almost afraid Slashdot would fail me on this one. Where the Wii fits in, indeed...

Re:maybe they just want to get the board out there

[bombastinator]

*argh editing error. Is there anyway to remove that last paragraph? it's just a duplication*

Nintendo

[dunezone]

The problem with Nintendo was that after SNES they held the same position in development. The n64 was an amazing system but compare it to the play station, it wasn't moving forward in "NEW" technology and im talking the cdrom. The same thing happened with the game cube also just wasn't up to par to what the consumer was looking for.

These days were looking for a game console that can do more then just play games. Nintendo blew that opportunity the last generation. This generation the new consoles go online, can browse the web, download games, listen to music, but thats all been done. Nintendo on the other hand is bringing something to the table that no one else has and thats actually trying to make you feel like your part of the game.

Will it work out for Nintendo in the end? I don't know, I own a Wii and I haven't played it in weeks. I own a 360 and I play that almost everyday. If anything Nintendo is holding to the past with its slow delivery. Online play should have worked out of the box on the first day, the lack of launch titles other then Zelda just reminded me of the n64 and game cube era again, and their online system is pretty lame right now.

As for Nintendo neglecting their roots, they never will neglect their roots but they also know that hanging on to their roots will sink their ship back into third once again. And from my last check they are about to take the crown back shortly. So I guess their doing something right.

Re:Nintendo

[Poromenos1]

Well, right now in my house there are 4 devices that can play DVD (3 PCs and a DVD player), but one you can do sports with (wiimote). When I first got it I lost sensation of my right arm and started using the left one until that was gone too. None of my DVD players did that.

(It was from Wii Tennis, not masturbation, so there go all the replies)

Re:Nintendo

[alvinrod]

I'm not really sure that so many people are looking for a console that does "everything!" If they were, I think the sales of the PS3 and the Xbox 360 would be a lot higher. I think that most people are interested in something that's a gaming machine first and is priced reasonably so. Anything else is a nice addition, but for a lot of people isn't necessary.

The only compelling features that the Xbox 360 or the PS3 offer are the ability for play HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray discs. Unfortunately, those features are generally regarded as an extra $200 and something I'm not interested in paying for at this point. I already have a DVD player, CD player, and Computer (browse internet, download movies/music).

I suppose if I wanted a Blu-ray player I could just pick up a PS3, as it would also be a gaming console, but I'm just not that interested in purchasing either of the new formats at this time.

If you look at the sales so far you see that the Wii got it right by being a gaming console first and not worrying about extras that would drive the cost up so much. The Xbox 360 is somewhere in the middle ground, and the "do everything" PS3 is trailing in last place at the moment. It's fairly obvious that most people don't need to a "do everything" console and the market is reflecting this.

Re:Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

That likely means you are a disgusting fat pig. Better go suck down 40oz of high fructose corn syrup to sooth your big flabby arms.

Re:Nintendo

[CastrTroy]

Personally, I think Nintendo did the right thing with not putting a CDROM on the N64. CDROM slowed everything down. The first time I saw that "Loading...." message on a playstation, I almost lost it. Nintendo stuck with the older technology because they felt it would offer a better gaming experience, and it did. Granted, they didn't win over the people who didn't really think it through, and just wanted shiny full motion video and CD quality sound in their video games. I think those are the things that take away a lot from games, because they cost a lot of money to produce, and don't really add much playability to the game. As for the GC losing out last generation, well, they sold very close to as many units as the XBox, and made a ton more money doing it. You can say that MS has to lose money to break into the market, but it's their second generation, and they are still losing tons of money on their console offering. The Wii is obviously very popular, and while it isn't for everybody, I think that it offers a lot of what people have been looking for. Maybe not what the hardcore gamers have been looking for, but what a lot of other people have been looking for. If you don't like it, that's fine. There's a lot of hardcore photography enthusiasts who don't like the little point and shoot cameras, and feel that they are really bad products. But they are providing something that many people find useful and easy to use. As for online play, well, it would be nice, but it's not anything that I feel is really missing from most of the games I play. If I wanted online games, I'd stick with a PC, because that's where the best online games have always been. Where the PC was 7-8 years ago is where the console is finally catching up to.

Re:Nintendo

[seebs]

Don't be stupid. "We" are not looking for a "game console" that can do more than just play games.

You are.

I don't know why. If I want a general-purpose computer, I know where to find one. I get consoles because they offer comparatively cheap and reliable platforms for video games. I do not care whether my console plays movies. I do not care whether it has a web browser or a media player. I. Want. Games. Nintendo's winning because they're bringing a toy to a toy store. Sony's selling some godawful overpriced junk. Microsoft's got something that wouldn't be too bad, but it's not cheap, and it's not reliable.

I don't personally care about online play. I am not interested in 40-player cooperative FPS games, and if I were, I'd use the PC. I think it's a big deal to people who are used to games that are frankly boring if you don't have eleven-year-olds cussing at you, but Nintendo's never gone after that market in the first place. The games they come out with are great as is.

Nintendo's selling a machine that plays games, singleplayer and LOCAL multiplayer, very very well. That's what I want, and that's what I spent four hours out waiting for in the cold one November morning. And, empirically, that seems to be what the largest group of people want.

I think Nintendo's always been a bit forward-looking; the N64's use of an analog stick was an innovation. The controller didn't work out great, but it was a sincere effort at improving controllers. The gamecube controller was noticably better in some ways, and didn't really add much, but it remains my favorite of its generation. The Wii is pure innovation.

I play the Wii more than I play the PS3, by a large margin. I haven't even been tempted by the 360 yet. (Of course, they're all losing to my primary interests, which are $DAYJOB and WoW.)

Re:Nintendo

[VGPowerlord]

I don't seem to recall that many loading screens on the games I've played... other than when you first start the game or load a saved game. A lot of games managed to hide the system's slow load times.

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was one of the best games I can think of at this... It loaded things while you were passing through one of the corridors that separated sections of the castle, or when it was playing the warp room animation.

Saving games, on the other hand, was obnoxiously slow. That's gotten somewhat better in the previous and present console generations.

Re:Nintendo

[VGPowerlord]

Nintendo's selling a machine that plays games, singleplayer and LOCAL multiplayer, very very well. That's what I want, and that's what I spent four hours out waiting for in the cold one November morning. And, empirically, that seems to be what the largest group of people want.

Welcome to two generations ago. The Nintendo 64 and Gamecube both did local multiplayer quite well. Nintendo even made the Wavebird for the GC so you could play wirelessly.

The Wii, however, now has WiFi... in order to play multiplayer games online.

Re:Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, I want my VIDEO GAME CONSOLE to play VIDEO GAMES. I know I am not alone here. Quit talking as if everyone feels the same as you.

Re:Nintendo

[seebs]

I think the wifi is also for updates and other features, like virtual console. I've used it for the weather thing, but I have no interest at all in multiplayer online. If I want WoW, I know where to find it. (On my laptop. Duh.)

Re:Nintendo

[TuringTest]

The same thing happened with the game cube also just wasn't up to par to what the media companies was looking for.

These days the media companies are looking for a game console that can do more then just play games. There, fixed for you. ;-)

Re:Nintendo

[grumbel]

### Will it work out for Nintendo in the end?

It already is, they are making money on each and every Wii sold, quite a bit I guess, considering that the Gamecube is selling for $150 less then the Wii. For Nintendo its really a Win/Win situation, if people stop buying Wiis tomorrow, they still have made money with it, if they don't, they will just make more and more money. If the Wii on the other side will actually bring anything interesting for the hardcore market we have to wait and see, so far there really isn't much on the radar.

Re:Nintendo

[owyn999]

Nintendo actually wasn't wrong and still aren't wrong when it came to their solid state cartridges, at least not in the way that one should look at such a thing. Honestly, if I look at the speed that the DS takes to load up and the offload of the memory I can easily see that an SD card is as fast or much faster than bluray and can go up to what now, 4GB, that is solid state memory, had Sony not forced the hand of nintendo to go with the gamecube we easily could be playing our games on Flashmemory chips, SD cards, or better and be playing them with less loading time and more space. But due to sony looking at the new media darling known as the CD-ROM being the next best thing since sliced bread they didn't take into account that a newer faster technology could come out that would keep the price of console game production down and would keep the time between things, noise, and energy costs to read from said medium down as well. The wii finally saving things to an SD card is ingenious and I believe could start another revolution to move away from optical media again, and allow us to get back to the much safer solid state mediums, as then we don't have to worry about scratching our discs.. But hey this is just one mans opinion when it comes to the whole gaming media

Not abandoning, but just branching out

[antifoidulus]

Look at their previous 2 home console releases: the n64 and gamecube. There are a couple of other gems, but lets face it almost all the "have to own" games on those consoles were either Mario-related, Zelda, or Metroid. And now compare that to say the playstation/playstation 2 and you see there is definately a lot of room to grow. A new zelda game was just released for the Wii, a new one is out for the DS in Japan and should be elsewhere before year's end, a new Mario is being planned for the Wii etc. Doesn't exactly sound like "abandoning" but for the first time in a long time, Nintendo has the chance to go out and do a lot more with the Wii and DS then they had the capability/finances to do before. It's a good thing IMO

Simple.

[DogDude]

The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE

Windows outsells Linux and OSX many, many, many times over. Windows is better..... right?

I'm still happily buying great PS2 games, and will continue to even after I pick up a PS3. Nintendo holds no appeal to me.

Re:Simple.

[ATMAvatar]

That might be a valid comparison if every TV sold came with a Wii.

Re:Simple.

[Koiu Lpoi]

First comment: Arguably, Windows is better for the average person. Try getting Grandma on the command prompt. Additionally, More != Better, however in this case, the Wii is clearly a good product, unlike the Windows/Linux comparison, where most people here assume "Windows sucks." Second Comment: Good for you. I'm still happily buying Xbox games. Nintendo happens to hold a mass appeal to me, as they happen to have a track record of having amazingly fun games.

Re:Simple.

[jombeewoof]

The hardcore gamers STILL don't understand that the Wii, with all of its perceived warts (to them, anyway), is outselling EVERYONE

Windows outsells Linux and OSX many, many, many times over. Windows is better..... right?
... Your argument is flawed...
Windows, the dominant product in its market will obviously outsell what is considered by many to be a niche product.Ask any average pc user and they will tell you that linux is for "geeks", I don't concern myself with OSX so I don't know what people say about that.

While in the gaming market, Nintendo, who by some accounts failed, or lost the last console war is coming back with a completely different strategy and it seems like they might have had a great idea.
with the last gen. PS2 obviously won and Sony went in another direction, the exact opposite of the one Nintendo went in this time.
While the Xbox team kind of brought on more of the same.

If an Operating System came out that radically changed the way we used a computer and that caught some steam, then your argument would be valid.

[quote]

I'm still happily buying great PS2 games, and will continue to even after I pick up a PS3. Nintendo holds no appeal to me [/quote]
There are still dozens of PS2 games that I haven't played, and will probably pick up at some point, but I'm not about to go spend $600 on a console. No way, no console is worth that much to me.

Xbox 360, just more of the same old crap with better graphics and online more integrated. Not really interested, but gears of war does look fun.

The Wii though, that's more interesting and personally I'm sick of the same old crap. Graphics don't mean all that much to me. I've always been more into the gameplay, and the Wii holds more appeal for people like me I guess.

Re:Simple.

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows outsells Linux and OSX many, many, many times over. Windows is better..... right? Correct!

Re:Simple.

[LKM]

Windows outsells Linux because a) it comes pre-installed on 99% of all PCs and b) people think they have no choice because they need Office or some other Windows-only app. I don't see how this compares to the Wii. People buy Windows because they (think they) have to. People buy the Wii because they want to.

I can see why you don't understand why people buy the Wii. That doesn't mean they are stupid for finding the Wii a better option than the PS2, the PS3 or the 360.

Re:Simple.

[cong06]

*sigh* like so many others, probably, I'd give you mod points if I had any.... :/

Re:Simple.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Wii though, that's more interesting and personally I'm sick of the same old crap. Graphics don't mean all that much to me. I've always been more into the gameplay, and the Wii holds more appeal for people like me I guess."

Pity for you I guess. Sacrifice one for the other, if you want, I personally go after graphics AND gameplay. They aren't mutually exclusive like many delusional people around here have been convinced to believe.

Re:Simple.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're an Xbox 360 owner then - there aint any AAA games out for the PS3 yet.

Re:Simple.

[miro f]

actually, people buy the Wii because of some Wii only app (Wii Sports)

no one buys the Wii for the Wii itself, they buy it for the games...

Re:Simple.

[LKM]

actually, people buy the Wii because of some Wii only app (Wii Sports)
no one buys the Wii for the Wii itself, they buy it for the games...

Uh, yeah, that is obvious. Why are you telling me that?

Re:Simple.

[miro f]

people think they have no choice because they need Office or some other Windows-only app. I don't see how this compares to the Wii.

I was simply pointing out exactly how it compares to the Wii.

Getting Tired Huh...

[I'll Provide The War]

Mario and Zelda are relics of the past

I suppose that is why at E3 they demonstrated Mario Platformer, Mario Fighter, Mario Karts and Mario Olympics and earlier this year released Mario Party, Mario RPG, Mario Soccer and 2 Zelda games(one for Wii and one for DS).

Re:Getting Tired Huh...

[VGPowerlord]

earlier this year released... 2 Zelda games(one for Wii and one for DS).

In the US, Nintendo has released no Zelda games so far this year. Twilight Princess Wii was released last November and Phantom Hourglass is on track for an October release.

In Japan, they've released one: Phantom Hourglass.

An alternative to FPS/twitchers

[humankind]

I welcome this new direction. The last console I purchased was a N64, and to be honest, I really haven't seen anything new or innovative since then in terms of software. Games like Waverace and Super Mario World were brilliant, and the first person shooters just bore me now. The Wii has re energized my interest in console gaming, but now there's another problem: finding one. After all this time, they still can't keep them in stock and that's frustrating.

Creating a new market

[grapeape]

I dont see this as abandoning the past as much as I do widening the future. Mario, Metroid and Zelda are all there or coming soon, Nintendo has simply expanded its horizons to attract a new audience. The Wii has created a buzz that hasnt been seen in the home gaming market since the Atari 2600, its become the cool thing to have for families, its very social and its accessable to anyone at any skill level. I had my in-laws who have trouble operating their dvd player participating in a game of Wii sports last night, if they can figure it out anyone can. Wii fit and Brain Training are perfect for them as well. The Wii is carving out a market that ensures it survival and expands the base of gamers across the board.

There is no doubt in my mind that the "Winner" in terms of product sold will be the Wii, however the important number for "traditional gamers" will be who comes in second. Either the 360 or ps3 could reach ps2 type sales numbers and still come in second. The "traditional gamers" are still there and are still a huge market to abandon them would be stupid, even Nintendo is aware of that.

The horror

[ucblockhead]

A market where each company is pursing a somewhat different customer base is better for consumers and better for the companies involved.

Which would you rather have, a choice between three consoles who are all somewhat different, each catering to a different set of gamers, or a market where all three console manufacturers shipped boxes that were essentially identical and catered to only a narrow market?

Whining about the Wii being too casual is like whining about how Cheerios don't taste like Frosted Flakes. If you don't like the Cheerios, just buy the fucking Frosted Flakes!

Re:The horror

[acherusia]

Which would you rather have, a choice between three consoles who are all somewhat different, each catering to a different set of gamers, or a market where all three console manufacturers shipped boxes that were essentially identical and catered to only a narrow market?

Well, that's easy. If I'm in that narrow market (as much of Slashdot is), I want all three consoles competing for my dollar. What do I care that non-hardcore gamers are being ignored by the market? I've got three companies competing with each other to give me something squarely aimed at my interests.

That's short term thinking, of course, since hardcore gamers don't start out hardcore, and eventually, if the companies only released for the hardcore market, they'd die through lack of new blood. But it's not a gamer's job to be thinking that- It's Nintendo's and Sony's and the XBox's teams'.

The plan is simple actually..

[SuperCharlie]

Stay out of the way of MS and Sony's schlong war and whatever theyre doing, do something different. Oh yea.. and laugh all the way to the bank as they scoop up the 98% of everyone who isnt a hardcore gamer.

Re:The plan is simple actually..

[Shados]

Yup, regardless of what one may think about Nintendo's games, its hard to deny that whoever thought up their recent business plans is a genius.

ppl r dumb re marketing

[Junior J. Junior III]

Mario, Metroid, and Zelda are like big budget films that everyone anticipates and waits in line to see, like the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars films. Everyone loves these games, not just "hard core gamers".

The idea of a "hard core gamer" annoys me to no end. I suppose that people like the "hard core" stereotype do exist, but even someone who merely likes video games but doesn't devote their entire life and entertainment budget to gaming pretty much can get into these games and enjoy them. The so-called hard core gamer just is willing to devote that much time into playing every major release, find every secret, and practice until they've achieved mastery over as much as the game as their skill level can afford them. Many normal gamers enjoy "hard core gamer" titles, but just don't bother unlocking everything or honing their skill at the game until they become a god at it. They beat it once on Easy or Normal, enjoy what it offers, and don't fret over finding every last secret.

Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and other "casual gamer" titles have broad appeal to everyone, not just people who have 9 hours to sit through a colossal blockbuster exteneded edition trilogy marathon viewing. Think of them more like popular YouTube clips. They take less than ten minutes of your time, you enjoy them for what they are, despite not having a huge budget or epic storyline, and then you move on with your life. If they're really catchy, you go back again and again for more laughs when the mood strikes.

Finding a new audience is risky

[Anonymous Coward]

While you are searching for a new audience you may forget to keep the old one with you, and end up not finding that new audience after all.

The simple fact is that electronic gaming has far wider frontiers then is usually reported by the "hardcore" gaming press (Consoles and PC).

I know a girl that spends a lot of time gaming online. MMO's? FPS? No, a puzzle site with word puzzles. There is a whole forum around were they exchange new sites, discuss solutions etc etc. Very much like you would find around say the various ID engines even includng people building their own puzzles and sharing them.

BUT you will not find them at E3 or reviewed at any "regular" gaming site.

Tapping into this different audience may be what Nintendo is trying to do. Perhaps they just realize they cannot compete with the big boys for "harcore" games and know that they must try something different.

OR maybe, just maybe, Nintendo is being really clever here. Perhaps they want to have BOTH markets. Why exactly should the Wii be limited to only "hardcore" or "casual" games?

The PC has hardcore games off all sorts AND you can play all those thousands of flash games on it. For every PC used as a flightsim or a FPS or MMO there is a puzzle pirates PC.

If you ever hear someone talk about consoles being bigger then PC's in gaming, you know you are talking to a snob. Microsofts Solitaire IS a computer game and no conolse in the world can match those sales figures. Or for that matter phone sales.

I think Nintendo is just releasing games it thinks might make a profit. Some of them happen to be games that we do not usually see in 'hardcore' gaming circles. However they have always been around (Chess games for instance on various consoles, including Nintendo's)

So basically nothing new. Business as usuall except some idiot notices other games selling and thinks it is the revolution. It ain't.

Ironic

[DerekLyons]

It's amusing that for all the Slashdot Hivemind complains about the big game companies and their endless sequels... Folks can't seem to wait for the latest installment of the Zelda or Mario franchises.

Re:Ironic

[jollyreaper]

It's amusing that for all the Slashdot Hivemind complains about the big game companies and their endless sequels... Folks can't seem to wait for the latest installment of the Zelda or Mario franchises. It really depends on the quality of the product. With movies, it used to be you could count on Disney to deliver a solid, enjoyable family movie experience. People looked forward to Disney movies. They had spark. But now everything they do is by-the-numbers and people couldn't give two shits less. Pixar has eaten their lunch. Now that Pixar's uniqueness had been added to Disney's own, they may go on to suck and leave an opportunity for a new studio. As far as games go, people used to count on Sierra to deliver solid, enjoyable, excellent adventure games. It was a sign of quality, you knew that when you were picking up a Quest game, you were getting something good. Then Sierra went to shit.

If sequels and the like meant you knew exactly what you were getting, i.e. a frankly excellent gaming experience, people would be dancing in the streets. I never really got into Mario or Zelda but gamers who liked those games say the new ones are keeping up with the spirit of the past while adding modern touches. In other words, those gamers are happy. Unfortunately, most sequels mean "we're cashing in and are going to turn out a lackluster effort because we know you fucking sheep will lap this shit up." THAT is where the criticism comes from.

What is this "ignoring hardcore" crap?

[HalAtWork]

Why does every article think that when Nintendo's hyping their "practical game" type stuff, it automatically means they'll never make another Mario game ever again? I guess the authors don't know about the word "expand" because this is what Nintendo is doing. Nintendo's even said it themselves (scroll down to the question about market share). Or to put it in MS terms (maybe these marketing-heads will understand it now), "The Wii is introducing a paradigm shift, thus unilaterally expanding the user experience to new high growth areas in untapped markets." I mean, who can't understand that?!

False Dichotomy

[Merusdraconis]

The split between 'casual' and 'hardcore' has never really sat right with me. I don't see why there is a split, to be honest, and I'm having some trouble working out exactly where the line between casual and hardcore is supposed to be. Is it time spent? People spend hours, hours, playing Bejeweled. Is it complexity? Because World of Warcraft is not particularly complex. (Oh sure, there are interlocking crafting systems and whatnot, but you don't need to spend any time with them.)

I suspect that what makes a game 'hardcore' is how much it expects the players can already do. Development budgets are stretched thin as it is, so you don't see many developers put concepts for advanced players to grasp once they've got the basics under control. Wii Sports doesn't have a mode where you make the tennis player run around by itself. And many games skip those formalities and expect you to be able to master concepts pretty quickly, and don't spend much time making gameplay out of running and shooting at the same time, or something similarly trivial for the hardcore player.

The solutions seem obvious: either flatten the curve of triviality by forging a path to a new genre (no-one accuses the Katamari games of being casual, but they're pretty shallow) or find ways to increase the complexity of the game just for the hardcore (this can backfire, as the hardcore as fairly likely to hem themselves in and then complain that the game is too easy, as with Final Fantasy XII).

double entendre

[daemonc]

"Where the wii fits in"

Am I the only one that finds the title suggestive?

Wii brings back the fun to gaming...

[axiomjunglist]

I'm sure a vast majority of the crowd here wasn't around for the heydey of the arcade. I'm not talking about Street Fighter II era, I'm talking about the oldschool games that munched quarters like crazy like Frogger or the original Mario Bros (not Super). You didn't need to know 9 controller/button combos to play efficiently. You could simply walk up and play. The game-play got more difficult as you progressed but the basic principal was that anybody could play, and it didn't take a lot of frustration trying to learn. Fast forward to now. I'm not a Nintendo fanboy by any means, but I do know when I'm having fun. Fun is a relative word, and for some people having fun is memorizing the zillions of button combinations & intense story-line required to play some games on other systems. For the rest of us that just want to pick up a game and simply enjoy it the Wii has amazing allure, and will continue to grow in its fan-base. No wonder people over 30 are buying it in droves...they're of the few that remember the simple (but fun) days of the arcade.

Re:Wii brings back the fun to gaming...

[amrust]

I was around in the "old days".

I distinctly remember that Defender/Stargate controls confused the hell out of me.

Re:Wii brings back the fun to gaming...

[DrXym]

The Wii is not intrinsically or even subjectively more fun than any other console. Ask someone playing Gears of War on the 360 if they're having fun and I expect the answer is hell yes. Ask me if I have fun playing Super Stadust HD and the answer is absolutely - it's a fabulous game. It's games that are fun, not the hardware they're running on. Nor is there some inverse relationship between fun and hardware power - the power of the 360 and PS3 allows those consoles to imagine games that the Wii will never experience such as the aforementioned Gears of War.

I do not believe either that the lack of buttons Wii remote makes it any easier to use. It might look less intimidating, but some games still need more actions than there are buttons. Then you're expected to remember a bunch of gestures instead which leads to the exact same issues - worse in fact since gestures suck. The only time the remote is going to be easy per se is if the game itself is simple. That is more a factor of game design than anything else. I have a game for my PSP which uses just three buttons and nothing else. I have a game for the PS3 which uses just one button and tilt controls. I have another game for the PS3 that nothing but tilt controls. The point being that its the games that dictate how many controls are required, not the controller.

Re:Wii brings back the fun to gaming...

[grumbel]

### The game-play got more difficult as you progressed

And more difficult for most part meant 'faster'. Sorry, but some of us are actually happy that we don't have to run through the same Pacman maze over and over again at ever increasing speeds. I like that Level 2 looks different then Level 1 and I also like when there is a bit of strategy involved instead of just quick reactions. I also like when games have a conclusion instead of just a game over screen. I never was a fan of simple arcade games and I doubt that I will ever will, but then I grew up on a C64, not in the arcade.

seems like I've heard this somewhere before

[rjejr]

I keep reading all these Wii stories about how Nintendo is abandoning the "hardcore gamer" (though I still haven't read an adequate definition of who/what that is) but I can't help but think these anti-Wii/Nintendo/DS people are the same ones who were bashing Lucas over the newer Star Wars trilogy. All their comments go something like this - When I was 10 years old Star Wars/Nintendo was so great but now that I'm 40 all these new Star Wars movies/Nintendo products really suck ass I can't believe how George Lucas/Nintendo have RAPED my childhood by putting out such great products for me when I was a 10 years old but now that I'm 40 all their new products suck ass because they are for kids but I'm 40 now and I want George Lucas/Nintendo to make stuff for me that I like now that is exactly the same as the stuff they made for me when I was 10. I'm sure it's not a 100% overlap of those people, but I bet it's dam close. Just like the same people who knock the Wii for nothing but Zelda/Mario/Metroid games can't wait for Halo3/MSG4/GTA4/Maddenadinfinitum. I hate (obviously) stupid people.

Re:seems like I've heard this somewhere before

[grumbel]

### I keep reading all these Wii stories about how Nintendo is abandoning the "hardcore gamer"

There you go: Hardcore Gamer
A hardcore gamer is simply one who considers games his hobby and not a time waster.

### same ones who were bashing Lucas over the newer Star Wars trilogy.

Well, the new trilogy was pretty awful, can't really blame people for bashing it.

### Just like the same people who knock the Wii for nothing but Zelda/Mario/Metroid games can't wait for Halo3/MSG4/GTA4/Maddenadinfinitum.

Easy to say when you don't have a clue. There are also *tons* of brand new IPs on PS3 and XBox360, HeavyRain, HeavenlySwords, BioShock, MassEffect, LittleBigPlanet, AssassinsCreed and a ton of more stuff. While on the Wii you really don't have much, Disaster, No More Heroes and little else that would be interesting for the "hardcore". The only area where the Wii is breaking new ground is in the casual market (Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc.), but thats not something that you can get people very excited with that have played games already for a decade or two.

Lemme break it down for you.

[Anonymous Coward]

What you don't seem to understand is that *YOU* don't matter. You're not their target audience. While hardcore gaming may be hardcore, it's certainly a very small segment of the gaming market.

So, just because you play a lot, that doesn't mean game companies are catering to you. That's what the grandparent is saying when he says hardcore gamers don't get the Wii. Sure, you don't have any interest in it, but a bajillion other people do, and that's what Nintendo is targeting.

Nintendo should apologize.

[cabazorro]

Nintendo should apologize for the countless golden afternoon's children wasted like human pods in the matrix of suburbia. Games should be quickly to learn easy to drop at any time not demanding hours of play to build points and skill for the next level. Video games should follow the sitcom format and bing played in 20 min sessions...no more.

Re:Nintendo should apologize.

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a pause button you know, and most games make it easy to save and turn off the console as well.

"but Mario and Zelda are relics of the past"

[thermal_7]

Hardcore folks don't like to admit it, but Mario and Zelda are relics of the past. It's become quite clear that Nintendo is losing interest in remaking the same old games over and over.

I'm assuming this refers to the classic Mario and Zelda type games, since when you consider all the various shoot offs (Mario [insert sport name here], etc.) the rate is definitely increasing. However, even when you just look at the more classic Mario and Zelda formula games, there is no sign that they are going away. You have..

• Zelda: The Twilight Princess (2006, Wii, GC)
• Zelda: The Phantom Hourglass (2007, DS)
• Super Mario Galaxy (2007, Wii)
• Super Paper Mario (2007, Wii)
• New Super Mario Bros (2006, DS)

Sure Nintendo is diversifying, but there is no sign that they are giving up their beloved franchises.

On the other hand, Miyamoto did say "This will be, without a doubt, the last Zelda game as you know it in its present form", but it is not like they are going to ditch it completely.

Tantalising Title

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Is it wrong that I'm aroused by this submission's title?

(Just my luck. I get the word "sucked" in my CAPTCHA)

Re:Tantalising Title

[VGPowerlord]

Is it wrong that I'm aroused by this submission's title?

That depends... are you a woman?

If not, then yes, it's wrong. :P

Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[amrust]

I remember when the Wii was announced, I was very skeptical. The "motion sensitive" controller... who would really think that's fun, after the novelty of the gimmick wears off.

Flash cut to today: I recently picked up a used copy of Warioware Twisted, for my aging GBA. The motion sensitive games are VERY addictive. So now as a result, I'm re-thinking my anti-Wii stance. I'm actually consider buying one, despite the fact I also have a new PS3.

That's how innovative the Wii is. The games will follow, just give it time.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[grumbel]

### The motion sensitive games are VERY addictive.

Just because it works for one game, consisting of 3 second long mini-games, doesn't mean it works for everything.

### The games will follow, just give it time.

I have heard that now for a whole year, yet there are still no interesting games on the horizon and given how limited the motion sensing in the Wiimote is I doubt that there will ever be any. The idea of motion sensing is a nice one, making it however the only thing the console has going for it is a pretty stupid move, it sure works business wise, but in terms of interesting games very little has happened.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[SparkyFlooner]

Consider how long it takes to make a game, that the system was JUST released, and how many developers had written off the Wii already, and that answers the whole "I have heard that for a whole year" (the Wii isn't a year old yet...but...ok).

The people have spoken, and developers were quick to sit up and pledge their support when the Wii took off unexpectedly. The problem is breaking away from more traditional games, like FPS, RTS, etc, and making something completely new. That will take time as games trickle out: some will work and some won't, but eventually new genres will open and expand outwards.

"The idea of motion sensing is a nice one, making it however the only thing the console has going for it is a pretty stupid move."

The problem with making it an accessory is that it becomes a niche product like the light gun. No, it was necessary for them to make motion-sensing the cornerstone of the console. As for it being stupid...well, it's you vs. 8 million who think otherwise.

I've heard countless people dote on the PS3's cell processor, about how it will take time to reach its potential and leap ahead of the 360 (in defense of how ports on the 360 and PS3 aren't really that much different..). In the same breath (er, paragraph) they'll rail on the Wiimote being gimmicky, and the lack of titles available as proof. So I guess that makes the Cell gimmicky, too. Or it means the Wiimote currently has scantly-tapped potential. Pick one and go with it, I guess, because it's too early to tell where they're heading at this point.

But for the love of god, STOP using the "no games out now" arguments. Wii Sports is an excellent proof of concept.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[grumbel]

### the Wii isn't a year old yet...but...ok.

Developers get their fingers on the hardware quite a while before the actual release and the lack of decent game support was also already visible before release.

### The people have spoken, and developers were quick to sit up and pledge their support when the Wii took off unexpectedly.

Thats a very favorite myth, but where are the resulting games? Or even the game announcements? Nothing to be seen so far, all the big titles continue to be in development for PS3 and XBox360 and the Wii might get a few casual titles here and there.

### That will take time as games trickle out: some will work and some won't, but eventually new genres will open and expand outwards.

The mini-games/casual-gamer-games genre is expanding very well. In terms of 'normal' games (those with story and stuff) there is happening close to nothing on the Wii and those few games that are there could be done with a normal controller just as well (Zelda, PaperMario, etc.), kind of understandable since both were originally developed for Gamecube.

### But for the love of god, STOP using the "no games out now" arguments. Wii Sports is an excellent proof of concept.

Wii Sports is not a full game and therefore a pretty bad proof of concept, since it doesn't actually proof much. In real games you normally have a few more action then just a single "throw a bowling ball" one and that is where the real trouble starts. As long as its clear that the player is going to throw a bowling ball the developer can make a whole bunch of assumptions, since its already clear from the start how the resulting action will look, the hard part is figuring out which action to do when you don't know it beforehand. And where it gets close to impossible is trying to figuring that out without delay.

### No, it was necessary for them to make motion-sensing the cornerstone of the console.

The problem isn't that the Wii comes directly with the Wiimote, but that it has nothing else going for it: online play is close to non existent, graphics power is five years behind everybody else, games are lacking and so on.

### So I guess that makes the Cell gimmicky, too.

The Cell isn't a gimmick, it is an implementation detail, something no user has ever have to care about. A controller is however the thing which the user will touch and use on a daily basis, very different thing.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[SparkyFlooner]

"Developers get their fingers on the hardware quite a while before the actual release and the lack of decent game support was also already visible before release." That's why the point I made about developers not pleding their support of the Wii until AFTER it went on sale important. Developers didn't care, and therefore, had no plans for games on the Wii until the public had already started demanding them. "Thats a very favorite myth, but where are the resulting games?" Again, it takes time to make a game, especially on a system with a radically different interface. Developers started pledging their support after the Wii became a success. That's not that long ago. So your complaint is premature. "Wii Sports is not a full game and therefore a pretty bad proof of concept, since it doesn't actually proof much." Not a full game? By what measure? Wii Sports is probably the most played title on the Wii. I'd say that proves a lot. And you're saying it fails because it doesn't recognize complex movements. Well that's exactly what they're aiming for! So I'd say mission accomplished. Wii Sports proves you can have simple yet addictive titles based solely on the motion-sensing qualities of the Wiimote. "the hard part is figuring out which action to do when you don't know it beforehand" Yeah, that would be hard. It'd be pretty stupid too. What game could you develop that you don't know what action to expect from the player? "Random Actions by Ubisoft! (synopsis) The goal of the game is to do a completely random action, and in doing so, you solve the puzzle to defeat the Evil Power." If you're making a baseball game, you have a good idea the motions they will make. ANY type of game you're making, you have some reasonable expectation about the moves they will be making. "The problem isn't that the Wii comes directly with the Wiimote, but that it has nothing else going for it: online play is close to non existent, graphics power is five years behind everybody else, games are lacking and so on." And yet even with all of those limitations, people are still buying it up left and right. So maybe it doesn't have everything you're looking for, but the majority doesn't seem to care. "The Cell isn't a gimmick, it is an implementation detail, something no user has ever have to care about. A controller is however the thing which the user will touch and use on a daily basis, very different thing." Your argument was that the controller is a gimmick because there are no games that take advantage of it. Well, there are no games that take advantage of the Cell either, so by your argument, it is also a gimmick. Sony touts the Cell as one of the features that puts the PS3 ahead of 360. But so far there don't appear to be any games that actually prove that. I'm not really saying the Cell is a gimmick. I'm simply saying that, like the Cell, it's too early to use a lack of available games as a judge on the system. The Cell has potential, so does the Wiimote. Both are odd ducks in the current generation. Both require a learning curve and a new way of thinking.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[SparkyFlooner]

[I swear, I hate that HTML is the default formatting)

"Developers get their fingers on the hardware quite a while before the actual release and the lack of decent game support was also already visible before release."

That's why the point I made about developers not pleding their support of the Wii until AFTER it went on sale important. Developers didn't care, and therefore, had no plans for games on the Wii until the public had already started demanding them.

"Thats a very favorite myth, but where are the resulting games?"

Again, it takes time to make a game, especially on a system with a radically different interface. Developers started pledging their support after the Wii became a success. That's not that long ago. So your complaint is premature.

"Wii Sports is not a full game and therefore a pretty bad proof of concept, since it doesn't actually proof much."

Not a full game? By what measure? Wii Sports is probably the most played title on the Wii. I'd say that proves a lot. And you're saying it fails because it doesn't recognize complex movements. Well that's exactly what they're aiming for! So I'd say mission accomplished. Wii Sports proves you can have simple yet addictive titles based solely on the motion-sensing qualities of the Wiimote.

"the hard part is figuring out which action to do when you don't know it beforehand"

Yeah, that would be hard. It'd be pretty stupid too. What game could you develop that you don't know what action to expect from the player? "Random Actions by Ubisoft! (synopsis) The goal of the game is to do a completely random action, and in doing so, you solve the puzzle to defeat the Evil Power." If you're making a baseball game, you have a good idea the motions they will make. ANY type of game you're making, you have some reasonable expectation about the moves they will be making.

"The problem isn't that the Wii comes directly with the Wiimote, but that it has nothing else going for it: online play is close to non existent, graphics power is five years behind everybody else, games are lacking and so on."

And yet even with all of those limitations, people are still buying it up left and right. So maybe it doesn't have everything you're looking for, but the majority doesn't seem to care.

"The Cell isn't a gimmick, it is an implementation detail, something no user has ever have to care about. A controller is however the thing which the user will touch and use on a daily basis, very different thing."

Your argument was that the controller is a gimmick because there are no games that take advantage of it. Well, there are no games that take advantage of the Cell either, so by your argument, it is also a gimmick. Sony touts the Cell as one of the features that puts the PS3 ahead of 360. But so far there don't appear to be any games that actually prove that. I'm not really saying the Cell is a gimmick. I'm simply saying that, like the Cell, it's too early to use a lack of available games as a judge on the system. The Cell has potential, so does the Wiimote. Both are odd ducks in the current generation. Both require a learning curve and a new way of thinking.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[grumbel]

### Again, it takes time to make a game,

A game announcement on the other side should be doable quite easily, but that hasn't happened either.

### Not a full game? By what measure?

Number of objects to interact with, which in the Wii Sports is one. There simply is only one thing to do in the game and that is way to little for a show case on how to develop real games on the Wii, where you might have dozens of objects on the screen (enemies, allies, doors, buttons, multiple weapons, etc.). How do I control all those at the same time with 'motion control'?

### Wii Sports is probably the most played title on the Wii. I'd say that proves a lot.

It proves that there is a market for casual gamer titles and has little to no value on how to do 'real' games with the Wiimote.

### And yet even with all of those limitations, people are still buying it up left and right.

They buy it for the hype, not for the (non-existent) wide selection of good games.

### Both are odd ducks in the current generation. Both require a learning curve and a new way of thinking.

As said, a Cell that isn't used fully used doesn't do harm, a controller on the other side that can't handle the games people have been playing for the last decade is quite a more problematic.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[SparkyFlooner]

"A game announcement on the other side should be doable quite easily, but that hasn't happened either." And they have announced they will be making games for the Wii. But they won't say WHAT game until they're well into production. Which, of corse, they CAN'T be because they JUST STARTED. "Number of objects to interact with, which in the Wii Sports is one." Geeze, consider Tetris! How simple a game is that! Are you going to tell me it's not a full game?? Wii Sports is at LEAST as complex as Tetris. Your argument is rediculous! "It proves that there is a market for casual gamer titles and has little to no value on how to do 'real' games with the Wiimote." I think the only thing you've shown so far is your bias against casual games. Casual games ARE real games. But if you need more 'proof', go check out Resident Evil 4 for the Wii. "They buy it for the hype, not for the (non-existent) wide selection of good games." Yeah, just like they're buying the PS3 for the hype...or in other words...a promise of good things to come. But notice they're buying the Wii instead of the PS3, and they're doing it because they like what the Wii is promising. "As said, a Cell that isn't used fully used doesn't do harm, a controller on the other side that can't handle the games people have been playing for the last decade is quite a more problematic." If it can't handle the games people are playing, IT'S NOT ON THE RIGHT SYSTEM! The Wii was NOT designed for those games. But I digress. And so do you. The original argument was if it is a gimmick, and I still maintain that time will tell.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[grumbel]

### Geeze, consider Tetris! How simple a game is that! Are you going to tell me it's not a full game??

You miss the point. The issue is that the Wii doesn't have any titles that demonstrate how the Wiimote can be used for the classic "hardcore" games (i.e. what Mario64 was for the analog-stick/C-buttons). Wii Sports might be a good demo for the Wiimote, but due to its simplicity not applicable to more "hardcore" titles.

### Casual games ARE real games.

There is nothing wrong with casual titles, there is however a lot of stuff wrong with a console that doesn't offer anything else.

### But if you need more 'proof', go check out Resident Evil 4 for the Wii.

I played it already on the Cube, what do I need a Wii for that?

### a promise of good things to come.

The PS3 has a heap load of interesting titles announced, full with gameplay footage and stuff. On the Wii there is far less interesting stuff in the pipe.

### But notice they're buying the Wii instead of the PS3, and they're doing it because they like what the Wii is promising.

$600 vs $250 has a lot to do with that. The PS2 wouldn't have sold at $600 either and I doubt that it would have reached the 100mil mark by limiting itself to casual titles.

### The Wii was NOT designed for those games.

Yes, thats my point. The PS2 was successful because it offered a wide variety of games, everything from eyeToy, to Singstar, to GuitarHero, old 2D arcade fighters, realistic racing games and just all that other stuff. There is almost no genre that you don't have on the PS2. The Wii on the other side is a very limited machine, if the controller will ever work with "hardcore" games is doubtful, even more that it will be good enough so that you don't mind the outdated graphics, online experience is lacking a lot and the game offering isn't exactly perfect either.

### The original argument was if it is a gimmick, and I still maintain that time will tell.

I'd say that time already told it. It just takes a while till the market will realize it and PS3/XBox360 hit a mass-market price range.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[SparkyFlooner]

"i.e. what Mario64 was for the analog-stick/C-buttons"

Then maybe you should wait for Mario Galaxy and see what it is for the Wiimote. Or Metroid. Keep in mind, they wanted the launch title to be a simple title even Grandma could play.

"I played it already on the Cube, what do I need a Wii for that?"

You don't, but I think it shows the Wii is capable of more than casual games.

"On the Wii there is far less interesting stuff in the pipe."

Once again, developers planned way in advance to support the PS3. The same is NOT true of the Wii. Developers didn't start pleding their support until after the Wii starting selling like crazy.

"$600 vs $250 has a lot to do with that."

Yeah, 600 bucks is nuts. But you can't say the Wii is selling only because of the price. People are interested in the new type of gameplay.

"I'd say that time already told it. It just takes a while till the market will realize it and PS3/XBox360 hit a mass-market price range."

Again, your judgement is premature. The system hasn't been out a year yet. We're still waiting for Mario Galaxy, Metroid 3, Super Smash Bros. And if you think the PS3 is coming down in price any time soon (not counting the limited time only 100 dollar discount on 60G models) you're dreaming. The current price of the PS3 limits it to 'hardcore gamers only'.

But I'll sum up. You claim the Wii is a gimmick because it can't play hardcore games. Well, what is a hardcore game? After following the numerous flamewars on Slashdot between those who same game A is a hardcore game and those who say it ISN'T, I guess it's a subjective call. I think YOU guage a game by how complex controlling your character is. By that definition, the Wii can't play hardcore games. But I say it can because it plays Resident Evil 4 nicely, which I do consider a hardcore game.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[grumbel]

### You claim the Wii is a gimmick because it can't play hardcore games.

The issue isn't that it can't play them, it is that there are almost none in that direction in development and there isn't anything where the control are so superior that you forget the lack of graphics. I mean, just look at the Wii from the perspective of a "hardcore gamer", what do you see? PS2 remakes, sequels to Nintendo classics, Disaster, No More Heroes and a whole bunch of uninteresting mini/party games. And even Disaster and No More Heroes don't look so hot that I would buy a console for them.

You can claim all day that developers are jumping on the Wii bandwagon, truth however is there is so far absolutely no indication at all that any 'hardcore' games will be the result of that, instead we see Project Hammer getting canceled and developers doing one cute game after another. Nothing new in the 'hardcore' area. You also underestimate the amount of XBox360 and PS3 in the wild, those are more then Wiis, quite a bit more, and there is little evidence that the Wii will ever catch up to them both combined. Remember many next-gen titles get created for both XBox360 and PS3, so their combined market share is still quite a bitch larger then that of the Wii.

Anyway, for me the Wii simply is a lost cause in the "hardcore" sector, no developer shows any real interest in that direction and unless I see some actual games or even game announcement all the bandwagon jumping rumors in the world won't change my mind.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[SparkyFlooner]

"The issue isn't that it can't play them, it is that there are almost none in that direction in development..."

I've run out of breath saying "It's too early.", so I'll simply wheeze.

Anyway, in response to everything else, let me just say, bon voyage. The Wii is not for you. Move along. Get a 360 or a PS3 and get on with your life. You have defined a hardcore game as "anything that is not on a Wii". So what can I say. The controls are gimmicky because they can't be used for 'hardcore' games. Your argument is as rediculous as your definition of 'hardcore' games which, by the way, you haven't defined. But once you do define it, I'm quite sure I can call it rediculous, too, as nobody else on the forums will agree with it.

So in the end, I'll simply rebut your anecdotal evidence with my anecdotal evidence and say I'm a hardcore gamer, and I like the Wii.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[grumbel]

### you haven't defined.

You want a definition of "hardcore", how about something very simple: Games that are liked by gamers. How do we find out which ones that are? Lets have a look at the popular review sites, not just one (biased) one, but one of those pages that build average scores out of many review sites:

http://www.metacritic.com/games/wii/scores/

A impressive number of 7 games above 80%, two of them Gamecube ports, one a port of a DS game, one a port of a PSP game, one is Madden and the remaining ones are WarioWare and PaperMario. Sorry, but by no stretch of imagination that can be called impressive. The PS3 with its terribly lacking games line-up has more then twice as much above-80% games and even the N-Gage comes out better.

You might call all those reviews biased, since they certainly don't match the casual gamer taste and you might be right (see Wii Sports), but then, thats the point. The Wii caters to a new audience and has basically completly abandoned the normal gamer population.

And about "give it time", well, thats exactly what I do, as soon as enough good games are out for it, I'll buy one, but I don't expect that to be anytime soon, if ever before the end of this generation.

Re:Wii = meh? Not so fast...

[buffer-overflowed]

I'm a gamer. Played on an Atari 2600, Commodore 64, IBM PC, and such when they were new and shiny and cost an insane amount of money. I progressed through NES, Genesis, SNES, N64, Playstation, Playstation 2, Dreamcast, Gamecube. On the PC front I went from a 286 to a 486DX2, through the Pentiums, to an Athlon, and now to a Intel Core 2.

I was one of the 500 people in the US to buy Ico when it came out. I have a copy of various and sundry rare, and old games in storage or on my shelf, including a copy of LORD 1.x signed by Seth Robinson. I have all of the original Ultima games, complete with cloth maps. Infocom stuff. Cartridges galore. If it was good, prior to this generation, and you could pick it up at a store, I probably either own or at one point owned it.

I view review sites as shit. They rate games based largely upon shit no one should care about, like graphics(compared to state of the art on ALL consoles, but not including PCs), voice acting, and orchestrated music. Resistance is a dull, humdrum shooter which combines the same tired gameplay and FPS cliches we've had for over a decade. It scores 10 percentage points higher than Wii sports, which is a far more successful, original, and enjoyable title.

At some point I can't precisely pinpoint, the media surrounding gaming got taken over by a certain subtype you certainly identify with. But as an old hand, with more experience than the majority of the so-called "hardcore", and most of the enthuisiast media... Zack and Wiki interests me more than any exclusive PS3 or 360 title coming out this year, and Space Station Tycoon gives me nostalgic golden-era PC vibes.

Actually...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii is NOT outselling everyone...

It is still being outsold by the PS2.

Re:Actually...

[NonSequor]

No it's not. For the US, NPD has been reporting that the Wii has been selling in the upper 300,000s to low 400,000s each month consistently since the beginning of the year. The PS2 has been selling in the 200,000s during the same time period. In Japan, the Wii's outselling the PS2 by an even more dramatic margin.

Looking at the graphs on VGChartz (which although not perfect is in the ballpark), you can see that the Wii has vastly outperformed the PS2's first year of sales.

Re:Actually...

[trdrstv]

The Wii is NOT outselling everyone...

It is still being outsold by the PS2.

That is half true. The Wii HAS been outselling the PS2 for a while now (on a month to month basis) but it still isn't selling the MOST of all the systems. That would be the DS Lite, the Wii is selling second best to that.

Is this title...

[will.perdikakis]

...one of the biggest openings for a Goatse comment or what?

Lots of sour grapes going around in game writing

[rhizome]

I don't want to get into any elitist intellectualizing about this, but there are a lot of hardcore gamers who have ignored Nintendo for a long time as a kiddie console. These gamers have grown up on the standard games that have become the 360 and PS3's stock in trade: mass market sports and Michael Bay action.

I think Nintendo has done a very smart thing by leaving Sony and MS alone to play out the tragedy we've seen many times before (e.g. ATI vs. NVidia). Trying to win a 3-way graphics battle is a losing proposition, so what other direction can video gaming go in? How about instead of increasing the number of pixel shaders or whatever, increase the ways that people can control a game? In the same way that we have not seen what the PS3 is capable of with its nine graphics cores and blah blah blah, we have not seen the limits of what the Wii control scheme offers.

So now we have a lot of gamers who grew up on the PS2 who now have become site writers and game reviewers, and they just can not make sense of the Wii's appeal. They start to use epithets like Grandparents and throw a giggly aside at "Cookin' Mama" about how it's kind of cool but what's the point? The Wii has caused tremendous congnitive dissonance in the gaming industry and it just so happens that a lot of loud people are writing about it.

The Wii is as significant a transition as the move to D-button gamepad controllers (Nintendo again), and now all of these game writers who are dependent on their DualShock style controllers are pissed that FIFA 08 doesn't come out for months and months so they turn their frustration to the console that *is* getting popular and playable games throughout its launch honeymoon. PS3 and 360 people are stuck waiting for the next wave and convincing themselves they like to using motion sense mode in Motorstorm.

Free hits

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Post controversial article on Slashdot disagreeing with popular opinion 2. Get hits 3. Profit

Hardcore cry babies

[sysadmintech]

I just read an article that said that hardcore gamers were crying that the 40-50 hours of Twilight Princess was too long. It blamed their attention spans. At the same time they complained about lack of "replay value" due to lack of online multi-player on the Wii. As Miyamoto said at E3, why would anyone, especially game designers, listen to anything these hardcore fan boys have to say. I doubt there are any gamers saying these things, just Sony and MS marketing execs trying to cover up that they were wrong.

Mario and Zelda sell themselves

[jrieth50]

Nintendo doesn't need to do lengthy press briefings, etc to sell Mario. Mario Galaxy could be awful and it would sell millions (see Mario Sunshine), Zelda could be a GameCube port (see Twilight Princess), etc. Putting big financing behind titles like Smash Bros, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc it is pretty difficult to make the argument that Nintendo is neglecting anything. They've finally just realized that they can give Retro Studios, Masahiro Sakurai, and whoever is actually directing Mario Galaxy and the recently whispered about follow-up to Zelda for Shigeru Miyamoto big budgets and total control over their projects and gamers will snatch them up without even thinking twice about it. Meanwhile Miyamoto and Iwata can scout out new talent in untested and unproven areas of the gaming market, bringing millions of new players into the fold that will one-day be relied upon to automatically pick up Wii Fit: Twilight Fitness, Brain Age Galaxy, and Super Wii Sports Brawl a decade or so from now. Thus doubling their bankable properties on hand, and in turn doubling the size of their massive cash holdings.

Re:Mario and Zelda sell themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wii Fit: Twilight Fitness"
hilarious, love it :-D

Social/Political Impact?

[ColombianKid]

Dont you think that the Wiis popularity in broad audiences will have social/political impacts? What will happen to those who cry "videogames are the source of all evil!!" when you have grandmas playing?

Born again gaming

[heresyoftruth]

I was really big into video games from the old Atari onwards. I found, later on, that the games stopped being fun for me. I am not the core demographic that these games are written for, and I understand that. I am old, female, and not exactly the first person shooter type. Nor, am I the sims kind of play house person.

I found several titles on each system that were weird cheap offshoot games, that I liked. I am not, and have never been interested in how hard a game was. I want fun games.

I got the Wii, with some trepidation, as I was beginning to think buying game consoles would just net me another system with a couple dozen unfinished games on it.

Six weeks ago, I got the Wii, with Raymans Rabbid Rabbits, Zelda, and just recently got Resident evil 4. My husband is a more hardcore gamer type, and loves RE4. I have nearly finished RRRs, and just started Zelda. It's been a long time since I put in 13 hours on a game with no stops.

I plan to get Brain Age, and the workout one. I already have Metroid on pre-purchase.

I feel like the 360 (not going to even talk about PS3) is geared towards harder games for the sake of being hard. Plus the games come in the same genres. FPS, RPG, race or sports. I have played those over and over in every incarnation. I am big on RPGs, and have played those since the Atari Adventure. I want something different. The Wii has those original styles of games for me, and all sorts of quirky new stuff.

I just don't have time in my life for the same stuff, made harder by pixel hunts and artificial toughness levels, to be the same crap. At least now, with games like Raymans Rabbid Rabbits, I can laugh hysterically with my friends while we hunt rabbits with plungers. (Tip: Punch your friend in the arm, and you get to shoot more rabbits than them!)

Not really a new plan.

[Saurian_Overlord]

Nintendo has always tried to innovate. This time, they've succeeded, and their fans want to hate them for it. Oh well. I don't think Nintendo cares very much if they lose their hardcore followers (and they haven't lost all of them, I'm part of the proof of that). They more than make up for it with the ex-non-gamers they've picked up. Hundreds of thousands (maybe millions?) of people who did not generally play video games before are out there buying Wii. Look at the numbers and tell me if you think Nintendo is scared:

Total units sold (approx., in millions):
360: 11.5
Wii: 8.9
PS3: 3.8
Units sold 1Q 2007 (approx., in thousands)
Wii: 1029
360: 721
PS3: 501

Oh, and just for the record, DS sales more than doubled PSP sales in 1Q 2007. I take these numbers to indicate that Nintendo's current strategy is working very well for them.

Re:Not really a new plan.

[gilesjuk]

Considering the Wii was launched about a year later those are impressive sales figures.

Also about 50% or more of the 360 sales are in the US. Japanese sales are under half a million.

Nintendo "are"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell speaks like that? Nintendo IS. Nintendo, singular entity, IS. Some would find ironic that, in this aspect, Americans speak a better (more logical) English than the English?

Hello ESRB here.

[Anonymous Coward]

We are happy to hear of the impending last breath of Mario at the gaming-scene, as this videogame character constitutes a poor role-model for children. His shortcomings consists of, but are not limited to :

- Being a plummer. Not only does he hold the position of a no-good working pleb, his wage is so bad he has to smash bricks to pick up the petty penny that might have fallen into the mortar during construction.

- His obvious drugproblems. Not only does he promote ingestion of fungi and flora, he also fails to properly portray the effects of such consumption. Flowers don't make you spit fireballs, they make your stomach hurt; red mushrooms don't make you bigger, they make you sick; green mushrooms don't give you an extra life, they kill you off with liverdamage.

- Animal cruelty. Stepping on and kicking turtles around shows a blatant lack of reverence for life itself, perhaps this aggressive nature is fueled in part by his shitty job and junkie-tendencies.

We recommend that Mario steps down from the limelight and admits himself to sn intensive rehab/detox/super-nanny-programme.

Non sequitur! Non sequitur!

[smitth1276]

Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Brothers
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Mario Kart Wii
Super Paper Mario
WarioWare: Smooth Moves
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Mario Party 8
The Legend of Spyro: The Eternal Night
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Kirby
Mario Strikers Charged
Many of their actual "roots" available for download.

And among third-party titles, I'm personally excited for "Project Rygar".

But they're making "Wii Fit", so those games obviously don't exist.

Maybe an age thing?

[DwarfGoanna]

This is probably like throwing gas on the fire, but reading through these comments (in every Wii related thread), I have to wonder how many of these hardcore gamers (as defined above) were alive back when everyone played video games? That video gaming ever got relegated to people sitting alone for hours in front of their TV, mastering arcane sets of commands on increasingly complex controllers seems like a sort of failure for the industry in a historical context. I mean, you used to have long lines and large crowds of people from every walk of life playing video games. No convenience store was complete without a video game. "Pac Man Fever" was a novelty radio hit because everyone knew wtf Pac Man was.

The first thing I thought when I saw the Wiimote was how every arcade game I'd seen at bars in recent memory A) was based on something familiar to non-gamers (those fucking golf games), and B) had abandoned the joystick/multiple buttons control scheme. Nintendo may risk losing the basement dwellers, but it's a really smart bet on their part.

Re:Maybe an age thing?

[jollyreaper]

The first thing I thought when I saw the Wiimote was how every arcade game I'd seen at bars in recent memory A) was based on something familiar to non-gamers (those fucking golf games), and B) had abandoned the joystick/multiple buttons control scheme. Nintendo may risk losing the basement dwellers, but it's a really smart bet on their part. The thing I never really got is the distinction between hardcore and casual systems. I'm guessing it's just because the WII has the lower price point because of less doodads inside. I think the real revolution is the different controller and a willingness to develop different kinds of games.

Too many people look at "video games" as nothing more than the genres currently popular. Imagine if the only videos blockbuster stocked were action/scifi/fantasy. Based on the demographics that would generate, analysts would tell you that girls didn't like vcr's/dvd players. Movies are a guy thing. Like hell. When someone comes up with the game equivalent of Titanic, the video game wars will be won.

Personally, I think that the game industry has made a mistake moving away from the concept of adventure games. Shit, those died out back when I was still a lad, when 3D became huge. The 3D engines now, they're good enough to do games other than shooters. Anyone take a look at the videos for that new Assassin game? Holy shit! This stuff is impressive. You can make entire interactive stories in these environments and do things that were never dreamed of in the Kings Quest and Monkey Island days.

Imagine if some studio decided to put together a Harlequin romance game, something that really appeals to the female approach. Go with a few simple rules for design: 1) no arcade sequences requiring gamer-style dexterity, 2) No hard failures that you encounter in typical adventure games like not having something in inventory at the end forcing you to replay the game or artificial time limits that will screw your gameplay 3) liberal use of mini-games that mimic the more popular flash games women tend to play. As an intellectual exercise, here's a Gone With the Wind sort of game idea. The player is the belle of a southern plantation. Dad and brother have gone off to the war and gramps is supposed to be the man of the house. However, he has grown ill and the player now must take over responsibility for the manor. The full estate is modeled from manor house to the fields. The game's main goal is to keep the estate running until the end of the war. The secondary, optional goal, is a romance subplot.

The mini-games will all revolve around day-to-day operation of the plantation, random and scripted events that pop up, and the options that different choices will open up. Which crops to plant? Where to sell them? Manage the expenses of the plantation. The love interest storylines are there to take or leave as you like. The mini-games can be either played or set on autocomplete. A player could choose to let the plantation run itself and just walk around and enjoy the simulation. The horsepower is available in the here and now. A plantation with a hundred people on it would be quite doable and with beautiful outdoor scenery to boot.

So, would a game like this be a success? I'm not sure. But it's certainly something different from what else is out there. It might be enough to make mom compete with kid when it comes for time on the game system.

Re:Maybe an age thing?

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

So basically Harvest Moon: Clark Gable Edition?

Re:Maybe an age thing?

[jollyreaper]

So basically Harvest Moon: Clark Gable Edition? Maybe. I'm so woefully behind on my gaming these days it's embarrassing. I know that's a Japanese title. Did they do that sort of thing? I've noticed that the Japanese can be very innovative with storytelling games. The DS lawyer game is like interactive fiction I hear.

Re:Maybe an age thing?

[zixyer]

Yes, Harvest Moon is a series of games where you run a farm, there's an optional romance subplot, and has scripted events.

I think the original SNES version was very good, but the sequels have been mediocre.

Re:Maybe an age thing?

[jollyreaper]

Yes, Harvest Moon is a series of games where you run a farm, there's an optional romance subplot, and has scripted events.

I think the original SNES version was very good, but the sequels have been mediocre. There's always room for companies that take an old idea and modernize it properly. After all, shooters were old hat and becoming a bit stale when Half-Life came around and showed everyone how it really should be done. Every game Blizzard has made has been along those lines, take an existing genre and perfect it.

Why are people still talking about this?

[adez]

Every time I read one of these "OMG!?! What is Nintendo doing?" stories, I get a good chuckle. Nintendo is still doing what they are good at, and will keep on doing it. I don't think their 'strategy' is so revolutionary. Casual games are HUGE on the PC. They are just going with the flow. They are expanding the console market by making fun, easy to play games. Do you think the casual gamers who buy the Wii are gonna turn into hardcore online FPS players? Probably not. They are expanding the market, but the people they are picking up are people who wouldn't have bought a 360 or PS3 in the first place. I bet they won't in the next generation, either.
For all the people who thought the Gamecube was a failure, keep in mind that Big N made money on every one they sold. They aren't a big conglomerate that subsidizes the cost of their bloated hardware, in hopes of making money off the games. They make money on the systems and the games.
After they got their asses handed to them by Sony and the original PlayStation, They found their little corner of the gaming market and keep expanding it slowly while still turning a profit. What about the GBA? It WAS the hand held console of the last generation. There were some others, but they aren't even worth mentioning. While the Gamecube was seen as a failure(which it wasn't, IMHO), the GBA sold like hotcakes for years. The DS already beginning to repeat that success.

The opposite seems to be true

[LKM]

Personally, the reason I don't get any nintendo machines these days is because of the endless Mario and Zelda remakes

What remakes? I'd love to get some Mario or Zelda remakes, but since Mario All Stars on the SNES, I have seen none.

If you mean to say that all Mario and Zelda games are alike, well, there's usually more difference between two Mario games than there is between to FPS from different franchises, so I don't understand the complaint. Apart from the main character and the fact that you can jump on stuff, there's no a whole lot of similarities between Super Mario Bros. and Mario Sunshine - and in those cases where Nintendo did go back to the roots with a new game (New Super Mario Bros, for exmple), it was very well received by gamers. If anything, Nintendo is not doing enough "retro games" in the vein of New Super Mario Bros.

Finally, I can't see how games like Zelda or Super Paper Mario would be better if they featured characters other than Link and Mario. Who cares? They're awesome games.

Re:The opposite seems to be true

[ElleyKitten]

What remakes? I'd love to get some Mario or Zelda remakes, but since Mario All Stars on the SNES, I have seen none. You're kidding, right?

The first Zelda, Zelda 2, and A Link to the Past were remade on GBA, and Ocarina of Time was remade on Gamecube. Then, they re-remade Ocarina, Zelda, and Zelda 2 along with Majora's Mask on the Gamecube. Then, we got those re-remade, again, on Wii's Virtual Console.

Mario? Well, SMB was remade on GB Color, and then re-remade on GBA. SMB 2, SMB 3, and SMW all got their remake glory on GBA, while Super Mario 64 got its on DS. Now, do I have to go through the VC remakes and the spinoffs' remakes, or will you just accept as fact that Nintendo makes a lot of remakes?

Good? Bad?

[wootest]

Nintendo's mostly on the right track. What kind of games are they pumping out these days? Games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Brain Age, designed to attract *anyone*. Games like Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Zelda: Phantom Hourglass and Super Smash Bros Brawl (and to a lesser extent perhaps Super Mario Galaxy) designed to appeal to folks that are already gamers. And games like Mario Party 8.

The only error I find in Nintendo's plans is that they should decapitate their pure money-makers (the "Mario Party 8" leg) and redistribute this brainpower evenly among the other two remaining legs. No one gets religion about Mario Party 8 and the "Core" gamers would get very happy to get a bigger piece of the action. I've never seen Reggie brag about how proud he is over Mario Party 8 - why not just drop it?

Re:Good? Bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

HudsonSoft makes Mario Party, not Nintendo.

Re:Good? Bad?

[grumbel]

The error is to assume that Mario, Metroid and Zelda would be enough for gamers. Most gamers like to have new games every once in a while, instead of the same classics over and over again that they already played for 20 years. Nintendo had only two original IPs on the Wii, Disaster: Day of Crisis and Project Hammer, Hammer is now canceled, leaving just *one* new game for the "hardcore" audience, that just isn't enough, not even close.

Re:Good? Bad?

[wootest]

Yes, and Retro Studios makes the Metroid Prime series, an unnamed studio makes Brawl and HAL made Melee and the original SSB. It doesn't matter that internal Nintendo studios don't make the games (Hudson is a Konami subsidiary, HAL is a second-party studio and Retro Studios was once a second-party studio but are now a first-party studio by being wholly-owned). My point was that whoever is developing Nintendo's crap titles (and I'm not including Metroid or Brawl here just by virtue of mentioning them for comparison) could be making other games instead.

Re:Good? Bad?

[wootest]

That's the point. By cancelling the crap games, both the new vein of reaching out to non-gamers and the "old"/"pre-existing" vein of serving existing gamers could be fueled by fresh blood. Mario's already in way too many titles. The last Mario-related title that I played that was anywhere near New Super Mario Bros was either Super Mario Land 2 on Game Boy or the original Yoshi's Island on SNES - not a sign of being rehashed for 20 years. The character, yes; the exact game, by way of retro re-releases, yes; the fresh new titles in the same vein, hell no. If Mario was overexposed for being in a series of well-developed platform games carrying the SMB(1)-SMW rule to its logical conclusion and occasionally starring in the odd Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros game, I'd have no problem with it. But that's not the case.

Even if I'd like to see two good new original Mario titles per year instead of 10 new completely irrelevant crap titles starring Mario, I'd of course also be happy to see new non-Mario titles in the same spirit. Things like Pikmin is existence proof that there can be new successful - and I hate myself for saying this word - "franchises". Nintendo is doing interesting stuff with new games and branches, they're just focusing most of it on their new audience. They'll need to realize that their existing audience wants some of that as well, and hopefully they have, and just don't have something to show us yet.

Yes, more Wii Sports please.

[LKM]

If the Wii comes to completely dominate the industry, there's a good chance a lot of really first-rate, complicated, serious games will never be released, in favor of hundreds of Wii sports clones.

You say that as if it was a bad thing. I love Wii Sports and I'd gladly buy version 2 or a few well-made clones, yet I don't have time to play through dozens of FF-type games each year. I'd be happy if that change occured.

Re:Yes, more Wii Sports please.

[Gravatron]

So simple is better in this case? So Grand epics are bad now? Frankly, after living though a decade of games where the only story was in the manual, i've taken quite a likening to modern games.
The wii is an interesting system, but its focus on simple games feels so boring to me. I want my adventures, my dramas, my action packed blockbusters. I want games that try to be art, that tell complex plots, that keep me remembering them for years after the fact. I just don't see alot of that on the wii. It feels like a giant step back for the industry.

Re:Yes, more Wii Sports please.

[LKM]

So simple is better in this case?

No. I said I don't have time to play through 100-hour epics anymore. I didn't say simple games were better, just that I play them, and I don't play many complex games anymore. It's not better or worse, but for me, having more simple games is a good thing.

So Grand epics are bad now?

No, see above. They are not bad, I just don't have time to play them, so I'm happy with getting more simple games.

Frankly, after living though a decade of games where the only story was in the manual, i've taken quite a likening to modern games.

Good for you. Or actually, bad for you, because it seems investing tens of millions of dollars into these games isn't sustainable for most publishers :-)

The wii is an interesting system, but its focus on simple games feels so boring to me. I want my adventures, my dramas, my action packed blockbusters. I want games that try to be art, that tell complex plots, that keep me remembering them for years after the fact. I just don't see alot of that on the wii. It feels like a giant step back for the industry.

There are not a lot of games on the Wii, yet, at all. And obviously, the epic games don't appear during the beginning of a system's lifetime. I think the Wii will get its fair share of epic games, but obviously, there will be less of them if developers invest more money in casual games. As I said, I'm fine with that, because I don't have time to play through all those epic games.

My dream console would be

[melted]

PS3 with Nintendo controls, platformers and game designers. That console could own it all.

Re:My dream console would be

[Ash-Fox]

PS3 with Nintendo controls, platformers and game designers. That console could own it all.

Personally, I am not interested if it's the price of a PS3 and the games being more expensive than a Wii game. I'm not a hardcore gamer after all.

Additionally, I'm not sure I would trust Sony hardware after all the issues I keep hearing about their consoles.

Aside from fellating Nintendo...

[Talgrath]

...all this article does is confuse what Nintendo is doing. They aren't "abandoning" the "hardcore" gamer, they're trying to branch out. To be honest, I don't think the writer even knows what a "hardcore" gamer is or what games they play. I think he confuses people who game regularly with the "hardcore" gamer. If playing Mario makes you a hardcore gamer, then almost every teenager in the world is a hardcore gamer.

Easy Question

[Nom du Keyboard]

Easy Question: Why not do both? Then you can sell 2X as many Wiis, since you sell to the old, and the new, crowd.

Re:maybe they just want to get the board out there

[tixxit]

I don't think Nintendo is "realizing" this now, but has "realized" this since the original NES. Every good innovation they had, has been copied by the next generation (if not the current) and why wouldn't it? What good is innovation if no one can improve upon it? However, the Wii offers far more then just a Wii-mote. 1. It offers cheap development to developers. This lets large companies take risks developing unusual games and small developers enter the market place and actually be competitive. 2. It drops all pretensions about what a console is and markets itself as something _fun_, no more. 3. It focuses on social gaming, not loner gaming. A lot of non-gamers (and many gamers) I know see video games as loner-centric entertainment. Whether they admit it or not, they see video games as a form of lower social class entertainment. The Wii is a system that kind of breaks through that social barrier. People who would never be caught dead saying they spent a night playing video games, are now raving about how much fun they had on the Wii. The Wii simply gives them a system they can play, without feeling like a social outcast. This is mostly due to Nintendo's EXCELLENT marketing. Every party I throw now, ends with everyone playing the Wii for 6 hours straight. And these are often the never-play-a-video-game types. 4. The MOST important thing it offers is a company backing it, saying "we made this for you!". People feel safe buying a system - an affordable system - where they know that the company who made it wants to make _you_ happy with games _you_ can actually play. Their marketing campaign focuses on simple games, with families playing them (even grannies), having a ball. Not games with crazy realistic graphics set in some post-apocalyptic world where everyone is a zombie. And you know what, they follow through as well. My parents have played my Wii on more then one occasion and loved it. Even my 71 yo grandma likes playing the Wii! Just imagine seeing 3 generations of your family all playing Wii Sports, it's surreal. I hate generalizing, but most people who say the Wii-mote is just a gimmick are missing the real picture. The Wii IS more then just a Wii-mote. It may not be a polygon rendering machine, but the Wii-mote is simply one tool of many that Nintendo has used to make the Wii a success. Would the Wii be a success without the Wii-mote? May be not. Would it be a success with ONLY the Wii-mote? Not a chance.

Got to love it.

[lattyware]

Whenever a Mario game comes out, we get articles on how Nintendo are pushing the same thing again, and have nothing new.
Whenever one doesn't, they are neglecting their roots.
You can never win, can you?
For the record, I don't have a Wii because of the lack of games I can see myself playing. Frankly, The only games I have played recently are Rainbow 6 Vegas for my 360 and UT2004 for my PC.

To the children looking for their wii

[Anonymous Coward]

All you have to do is go to www.amazon.com and get your parents to run the credit/debit card.

It should be noted...

[Talgrath]

...that mostly Wii's are being bought by gamers. There was a study, though I don't have the link on-hand, that noted that only about 10% of Wiis are being bought by people new to video games (ie, they didn't previously own a console). I think people are reasonably skeptical about Nintendo emphasizing Wii Fit at E3 when they have other great games out that people are more interested in.

Here you go...

[LKM]

Wii Power Glove :-)

Re:Here you go...

[Aladrin]

Yeah, it's neat idea, but some of the specifics are ... ugly. The fingers don't sense the flex, you have to press a button between finger and thumb... I think the sensor is still in the Wiimote, instead of on the back of the hand, which makes the thing on the back on the hand purely for show and would possibly be in the way of the sensor.

And it's ugly as hell. ;) They can an A for effort, though.

"Nintendo are"

[Creepyguywithastick]

If Nintendo is being referred to as a single entity, shouldn't it be like "Nintendo is"? No one says "America are" they say "America is" or "Americans are"...

Re:"Nintendo are"

[reboot246]

You're right. I don't know what's been happening to the language lately, but it's getting worse. I hear usage like, "the team are", on documentaries nowadays. Is anybody learning grammar in school now?

Re:"Nintendo are"

[myz24]

IIRC the rules goes something like this. Nintendo is a company that has a board made up of people. In this case, you refer to Nintendo as if it were a plural. So, Nintendo are making games. Unless, as the OP stated, the person is referring to Nintendo as a single entity.

The problem is, you never really know what the person's intent was and Nintendo are sounds dumb either way.

Re:"Nintendo are"

[reboot246]

Nope. Nintendo is a company, ONE company. The rules may have changed without anybody consulting me, but the rule has always been that collective nouns are treated as singular entities. The team IS great. The company MAKES a lot of money. The government IS crooked.

Re:"Nintendo are"

[buffer-overflowed]

UK versus US english.

In the US we treat Nintendo as a single entity:
Nintendo IS making games.

In the UK they treat Nintendo as a collection of individuals:
Nintendo ARE making games.

Re:maybe they just want to get the board out there

[corychristison]

SSX Blur.
Funnest Game Ever (for the Wii ;-))

Note to Nintendo

[Yvan256]

Wii Play and such "games" are fine with me. However, the day you stop making Metroid and Zelda games is the day I don't buy your console.

P.S.: I never bought a Nintendo 64.

Re:Note to Nintendo

[VGPowerlord]

Wii Play and such "games" are fine with me. However, the day you stop making Metroid and Zelda games is the day I don't buy your console.

P.S.: I never bought a Nintendo 64.

WHAT? You didn't buy a console that had not just one, but two Zelda games? It's besides the point that I think Majora's Mask is the weakest game in the series (not counting the CD-i titles).

Yes, I'm aware that it didn't have any Metroid games. ;)

Re:Note to Nintendo

[Yvan256]

Yes, I'm aware that it didn't have any Metroid games. ;)

Hence my reason to not buy the Nintendo 64. The second reason was that the 3D was so low-resolution that it gave me headaches. I do have the two N64 Zelda games on a Gamecube disc (or is it two discs?), I just haven't bothered to play them yet.

To me, Metroid comes before Zelda. I do have most of the Zelda games too, however (if not all).

Mario is here to stay

[Billly Gates]

Mario Galaxy has appeal for adults as well as children and Nintendo is still making games for the hardcore crowd too. What nintendo is doing is just diversifying and letting 3rd party developers to write hardcore games.

If I wanted rehashes and sequels...

[Ant P.]

I'd buy a console where the most popular games have sequel numbers in the double digits, no?

Franchise Games vs. Their Characters

[Duranium256]

I don't particularly care if the games franchises themselves die out, as long as those characters remain in circulation. If Nintendo ever stopped using Mario or Link as characters in their games completely, then I'd be dissapointed, but the franchises themselves are getting old.

My thoughts.

[Junta]

Sony had a significant headstart in the market to Xbox and Gamecube. The only competition for them their first Christmas season was Dreamcast, and many people recognize Sega only ever had any measure of success with the Genesis. They had the momentum of PS1 success behind them (even if they couldn't have played PS1 games, which was a huge boon in and of itself, giving it technically the largest launch library to date, they had business relationships with the third party vendors to logically continue series on the PS2 platform). Microsoft was starting from scratch (loser relationships with PC game publishers count for something, but not with the control strategy and tight relationships of the console world), and Nintendo to an extent repeated one of the N64 blunders (small game media), and did nothing to tap into previous console libraries and, of course, had lost so many third parties to Sony. Add to the fact that Sony embraced DVD in terms of video playback out of the box, and you see the PS2 to be one of the most intelligently planned product launches of its time. It's no wonder that PS2 was far and away the 'winner', and from what I see, was a well-earned win. Totally the opposite of the rather bumbled PS3 launch situation, the wrong time to make mistakes when Nintendo has done something so smart.

Re:maybe they just want to get the board out there

[VGPowerlord]

It wouldn't surprise me if the company comes out with yet more weird controllers. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks, because if something does they have it all to themselves.

Well... that was the entire point of putting an addon plug at the bottom of the Wiimote, wasn't it?

How The Industry Defines Hardcore

[poofyhairguy82]

The split between 'casual' and 'hardcore' has never really sat right with me. I don't see why there is a split, to be honest, and I'm having some trouble working out exactly where the line between casual and hardcore is supposed to be.

It is easy to see how the video game industry defines hardcore: in dollars spent. No matter how much time my mom spends playing Bejeweled, she can never be considered hardcore because the most she spent was $19.99 for the experience.

I, on the other hand, am considered to be hardcore gamer because this year I bought a pile of Wii and PS3 games (heck- I BOUGHT an overpriced PS3!) and because right now I have a Newegg tab open of a video card I am about to purchase.

Of course, sometimes those who make up most of the demographic of the hardcore -16-35 year old males like myself- don't want to admit that such a simple concept does let in those that they might not want in the club (like my little sister who has spent more money than I want to count on every Pokemon game possible and all the consoles to play them). That is why there is even a conflicting definition for the concept- they want to make a new definition so that those who don't live and breath Halo/FF/WOW and purchase three video game magazines a month are involved. Luckily for hardcore gamers that base their ego on the title (back like I used to do in high school when "Next Generation" magazine was still around), since most of high end (aka expensive) side of the gaming world is targeting toward them with high def guns and glory it is rare that they have to reconcile the point...

Re:maybe they just want to get the board out there

[trdrstv]

Nintendo may realize that they have to capitalize on these advantages, and are attempting to do so. XBOX and Playstation six axis game controllers are already in development. The Wii could lose it's spec ial charms at any time. What they have at the moment is the opportunity to get a jump on the competition with new interface formats and new game styles. We may be seeing a frantic research project on the part of Nintendo to find a way to get a lock on the "new thing" while they still have exclusive access.

The already have. Nintendo has the "Mindshare" of the public already, so it doesn't matter if MS and Sony come up with the exact same controller as the wiimote... People looking to buy a Wii aren't looking to buy "a video game system", they are looking for something specific, a "Wii" much in the same way that many people don't shop for an "MP3 player", they shop for an "iPod". Given the sceneraio of a "Market imatator" (which is what Sony / MS would be in this case) people would see it as an imatator that is more expensive. If Sony/ MS want to go the "Wiimote route" they need to do it at the start of the next gen, and has to improve on the current design, and hopefully whatever nintendo does to improve it.

A surf or skateboard game would seem to be very preferable over a yoga game, but they don't have to make one. They just have to get the board into the marketplace before microsoft. I'm sure the yoga game was a lot quicker to write. Where they make the money is not by making a semi-popular game with a controller that is probably a wash profit wise. They make it when "Tony Hawke" comes out for their patented controller and everyone's got to buy a Wii so they can play it.

The "Wii Balance Board" should make these games (Tony Hawke, SSX) the prefered version to play.

Forget Mario, revive some of the real classics

[dircha]

And not through your "Virtual Console". Let's see some new development. Just because people aren't paying money for your 15 and 20 year old games doesn't mean there isn't a market.

Let's see some of the real classics brought up to date, and please take note, I do NOT mean modeled as 3D polygons, with wildly swinging cameras, and wasting precious CPU cycles on half-assed photo-realism. Spend your budget on designers and 2D artists. With the popularity of Japanese style anime among young people today, albeit the market would be all over this with marketing support. And cell-shaded 3D doesn't count. That just gives you all the disadvantages of 3D with none of the advantages of beautiful 2D artwork.

Double Dragon
Final Fight
Streets of Rage
Metal Slug
Street Fighter
Fatal Fury
Art of Fighting
King of Fighters

Games like these were all great to play at home and at the arcade. They were also great fun to play with friends, and that seems to be a key strategy for the Wii. These are all great franchises. None of them have the much-criticized kiddie themes of the Mario universe. They just need some decent development and marketing dollars.

Re:Forget Mario, revive some of the real classics

[shoptroll]

But you have to talk to SNK, Capcom, and Technos to get those done. That's not Nintendo's problem, it's the rest of the industry.

3. Profit

[DavidD_CA]

1. Come up with a rediculous story about Vista which will generate lots of traffic from MS fanboys and the Linux croud. Mention Haliburton for extra hits.

2. Post story on "blog" with Google ads.

3. Profit!!

Slashdot? Reading articles?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here.

And I quote...

[Cowardly Anonymity]

The July 20, 2007 edition of Time magazine ran a 10 question interview with Miyamoto. The questions came from various specific people wanting to get an answer from the head honcho himself. I'm just listing two of the relevant ones.

"Q:What do you say to the gamers who accuse Nintendo of catering to the casual gamer and not the hardcore gamer?
A: At E3, I was a little concerned about defining people as a hardcore gamer vs. a casual gamer. But there are hardcore gamers who play a lot of casual games. Nintendo's focus is to break down the barriers between those two groups and consider everyone just gamers.

Q: Many criticize the reuse of franchises like Mario. Do you prefer to create new characters or work with old ones?
A: I try not so much to create new characters and worlds but to create new gameplay experiences. If a new experience is better suited to a new type of character or world than one of our existing franchises, then we might create a new character or world around it."

Given their current release schedule...

[caitsith01]

It's become quite clear that Nintendo is losing interest in remaking the same old games over and over.

It's become quite clear to me that Nintendo is losing interest in releasing games at all. For a system with the potential of the Wii, the rate at which they are releasing games this year is laughable.

How can we still have only one sword/shooter (Red Steel), one decent sport game (Madden), and ZERO decent light gun style shooters this long after release?

There is a reason to be a cheerleader

[patio11]

Pretend that, to eat Cheerios or Frosted Flakes, you have to eat them in a special bowl. The bowl is really expensive, absorbing much of a month's discretionary budget. You will still continue buying Cheerios or Frosted Flakes, without which your bowl is useless. However, should Cheerios outsell Frosted Flakes 4 to 1, it will become increasingly difficult for you to find a store which stocks Frosted Flakes, and while the Cheerios kid will get Honey Nut Cheerios and Blueberry Sparkle Cheerios and a hundred variations on the theme you will be stuck with plain vanilla Frosted Flakes because the cereal companies will abandon Frosted Flakes as unprofitable.

In this weird alternate world, it makes sense for you to become emotionally attached to being a Frosted Flakes fan, and try to convince people to eat Frosted Flakes instead of that healthy not-really-a-cereal-more-like-a-grain-in-a-bowl Cheerios: if Cheerios "wins", they lose their investment in the Frosted Flakes bowl (additionally, they might actually like blueberry sparkles, but only if they are on Frosted Flakes rather than Cheerios, even if they had a spare Cheerios bowl lying around). Personally I don't think its a winner-take-all market but, eh, nobody ever accused Frosted Flakes eaters of being sophisticated economics thinkers :)

Imagine a world without Mario.

[paynesmanor]

Now the exception is with Mario.. They have to at least continue making Mario more interactively lifelike. But yea I agree yes the Zelda quests do need a serious upgrade, more people and monsters, and a lot less story. (faster pace and more action) No super weapons, just cool interesting tools..

It's all about modchips I tell you! :D

[aliquis]

Since they actually did sold less than the Xbox I guess that makes them come last. Thought we all know Xbox would have failed miserably if it wasn't for modchips, and maybe Gamecube lost in sales because the modchips arrived so late =P

heres the spiel on why the wii is major weak sauce

[nagglerdamus]

NOTE: long ass post, summary at bottom okay, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here regarding the hardcore-gamer's "misunderstanding" of the wii. i consider myself a hardcore gamer; 70-hr RPG, im there, new shiny FPS, ill probably try it, arcade style games like metal slug or killer instinct, im all over them, platforming like mario games, good and dandy. now, ive ALWAYS preferred nintendo systems over all others: genesis, ps1/2, saturn, xbox, all crap compared to the glory that WAS nintendo's offerings. but why prefer nintendo's systems above all others? for me it was easy, it was plain and simple the quality of the games themselves and how nintendo was able to bring them to life, be it the polish of the gameplay, the direction of the graphics, or the imagination with which the game was forged from, nintendo was a cut above. and i could lose myself in those games, more times than not, id lock myself in my room as a kid, glued to the screen, exploring every nook and cranny and letting my imagination run away it. but as to why the wii is weak, just look at the games (although this is going to get into many other things): MARIO: so they call it mario galaxy, but all i see is mario running on a bunch of fucking floating spheres. this would've been okay for maybe a bonus level or something, but an entire game?! again, hes running on small floating spheres!! imagine all the textures removed, all the objects/enemies mario has to encounter turned into baser objects, and a cat instead of mario, would you honestly give the game more than 2 glances? and i LOVE CATS. so maybe it wouldnt be the worst game, but nintendo seems like they can surely do better for such a core mascot. why is mario in space? why are all the worlds or whatever the hell he runs on so small? how is he advancing to save the princess? is she on the moon again? why the fuck am i running on spheres?!?! where am i going?!?! his is this running of fucking spheres helping me do anything? why put him in space to begin with?! his world was already amazing. something like this could have been done on the n64 anyway. ZELDA: regarding twilight princess: gamecube game (that cant touch that TGS zelda trailer) with worse timing and glory (yes, glory) than ocarina of time. ocarina of time followed snes zelda with it's 2-d top down view, and in an amazing feat elaborated much much more upon the zelda universe while jumping to seamless 3-d. we were brought much more into the world, with more life in every character, mostly amazing music, and new gameplay. tough act to follow (wind waker however, was amazing as well!! took advantage of the extra horsepower over the n64, and created a unique world affluent with the zelda universe, but more importantly, they took the series in a fresh direction thats the n64 couldnt touch; a fresh direction in the sense that the world and style were familiar, and yet it felt so new, such a "chapter" ahead of the previous installment). so then TP comes out, and how do they elaborate upon the world or turn a page? now you turn into a wolf to do stuff. havent i done this before sans the wolf? and why not just play it on my gamecube? oh right, no 16:9 support....assholes. METROID: SNES to GCN = awesome GCN to Wii = GCN i dont need a wiimote to play GCN style metroid, it uses a lock-on targeting system. plus, the obstacles look exactly like GCN metroid's. i wouldnt want to go back and play the GCN metroids with the wii remote if i could, and i dont care too much about using it for the next metroid, unless it looked like the CGI in super smash bros. melee and i could jump and aim like that. NEW MAJOR CHARACTERS' GAMES: nothing as to all the other crap nintendo is making for the wii: i dont care about working out to video games unless thats just a side effect (NES track and field mmm), and sports are just... well theyre fun for a bit, but its hardly a game id play like an old nintendo game (which is locked in my room, with coke, missing dinner, playing feverishly, engulfing my mind into it's artificial world). and w

Uh huh

[Rob Simpson]

If the Wii comes to completely dominate the industry, there's a good chance a lot of really first-rate, complicated, serious games will never be released, in favor of hundreds of Wii sports clones.

Yeah, "first-rate, complicated, serious games" like Madden 2010, or Halo 4, or Call of Duty 5?

Nintendo's roots?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is it such a bad thing that Nintendo are neglecting their roots?"

Well, they started off selling playing cards and hotel rooms by the hour. I guess they've already jumped the shark on that one...

i could be wrong but...

[sahilsinha]

in the vagina?

The real problem with this

[Zovistograt]

The real problem is that the place in the gaming community that Nintendo is trying to establish with the Wii is the non-core element of either really young or older audiences. Sure, a few games in the Touch Generations series and maybe one or two games on the Wii like that would be fine, but it seems as though Nintendo has gone a bit too far in my opinion. WiiFit was the biggest disappointment I've ever had with Nintendo in my history of being a loyal fan. It's just too non-gaming for the gaming community to take. I think Nintendo should make only a few games like these and concentrate on their loyal fanbase of franchise-lovers. Mario, Zelda, etc. are not dead, far from it actually. They just have to keep making quality games, not this boring DDR ripoff crap.

Re:Lots of sour grapes going around in game writin

[grumbel]

### Trying to win a 3-way graphics battle is a losing proposition

Might be, but completly giving up the fight can't be the right way either. Wii games already look old and that will only get worse with time. The issue isn't even that the Wii looks bad compared to PS3/XBox360, its that its struggling to even keep up with PS2/XBox/Gamecube.

### How about instead of increasing the number of pixel shaders

The Wii has exactly 0 of them, welcome in the technological stone age...

The thing I miss the most in the Wii however are not its graphical capabilities, but games that show that the controls are actually good for something. Sure, there is Wii Sports, but that is a rather limited game, you basically just have one motion in each sport, so it doesn't work much as a show case for general games. Looking forward to games like Mario and Metroid you will notice that Mario lacks camera control and Metroid makes use of minus as well as the 1 and 2 buttons, neither of them in a comfortable position to reach during gameplay. I get the feeling that Nintendo never designed the controller with real games in mind, which isn't exactly a good thing. And well, their 'big' E3 announcement Wii Fit didn't even use the Wiimote to begin with, not a good sign either.

Re:Lots of sour grapes going around in game writin

[rhizome]

The thing I miss the most in the Wii however are not its graphical capabilities, but games that show that the controls are actually good for something.

These things take time. Do you level a similar criticism at the PS3 because nobody is using all 9 cores to their fullest yet? The simple fact is that the Wii took all of the major game publishers by surprise. Everyone was gearing up for their PS/XB AAA's and once all of the 7G consoles were out, the Wii took off and the PS remained unfindable. This caused a mad rush to come out with launch-ish titles and first wave titles that were 90% ports from existing versions with a little bit of controller tweak.

We don't know what the Wii is capable of yet. People haven't figured it out, but that's not Nintendo's fault. It's something to look forward in the future, like the use of all of the PS3's number crunching power. Some things take patience, and some things take even more patience, since large companies dropped the ball and considered the Wii to be a pathetic cause prelaunch than it wound up being.

No.

[nugx]

I was just starting to get sick of playing Ocarina of Time with updated story and graphics again...not to say it aint great =)

Re:Lots of sour grapes going around in game writin

[grumbel]

### These things take time.

Time that Nintendo should have spend *before* releasing it, a year after and they still don't really know what to do with it just isn't acceptable.

### Do you level a similar criticism at the PS3 because nobody is using all 9 cores to their fullest yet?

Graphics are far less important then controls. If graphics aren't up to full, thats not really a big issue, on the other side if the controls suck, the whole game is ruined.

### The simple fact is that the Wii took all of the major game publishers by surprise.

It didn't took Nintendo by surprise and even they don't really have much an idea what they are doing.

### We don't know what the Wii is capable of yet.

The specs are out, the controller can be used by an PC with Bluetooth, so there really are no secrets left and the sad truth is that the controller just isn't up to what some people have hoped for (no sensing of position in 3D space).

Just look back at history to see how it should be done: Mario64, that game looked like the controller was build for it and visa verse. It was released on day one together with the console and controller. There was no waiting for the day when they figured out how to use an analog stick, instead the analog-stick itself was build around the problem of navigating a 3D game. The Wiimote on the other side looks like a solution searching for a problem.

Nintendo Casuals vs. MS 'casuals'

[trdrstv]

Quite a while prior to the Wii being released, Microsoft had the Xbox Live Arcade. They have been courting the 'casual' crowd for a while. They have had some success with it, (not as much as Nintendo) and it should not be forgotten.

When I was sick feverish stupor a few weeks ago, I played Catan for about 20 hours over a two day period. I played Luxor 2 this morning, and I am looking forward to some Bomberman tonight.

The main difference with Nintendo right now is that they are PRIMARILY going after the casual market.

It's not that people forget XBLA exists, it's just that it is such a side concern for MS it's easy to say "casuals aren't really their market". When was the last time you saw a TV commercial promoting Live Arcade?

I for one feel that it is mind boggling that (despite having more titles available), the VC is much less "Casual friendly" than XBLA. The Wii should get titles like Catan, and Carcassonne, and online Uno, and Bejewled 2, and online poker, but for whatever reason they haven't pushed the original titles or casual retro titles yet. Even Tetris, Dr. Mario, or a SuDoKu game would be helpful at this point...

You are correct though in pointing out the fundamental difference between the two. Most people don't buy a 360 for Catan, or Uno... They buy it for Gears, or Oblivion, or Halo, or GTA... They buy the system for the "Core" franchises, and they (or perhaps others in the same household) buy / play the casual games in addition. Conversely people ARE buying the Wii for WiiSports and the like, and are completely content not to dabble into "the core" titles.

Those are not Remakes

[LKM]

What remakes? I'd love to get some Mario or Zelda remakes, but since Mario All Stars on the SNES, I have seen none. You're kidding, right?

No :-)

The first Zelda, Zelda 2, and A Link to the Past were remade on GBA, and Ocarina of Time was remade on Gamecube. Then, they re-remade Ocarina, Zelda, and Zelda 2 along with Majora's Mask on the Gamecube. Then, we got those re-remade, again, on Wii's Virtual Console.

These games were not remakes. None of them. Nintendo released the exact same old versions on new consoles. They didn't remake them.

Mario? Well, SMB was remade on GB Color, and then re-remade on GBA.

Ah, true, there was a Mario remake on the GB (Super Mario Deluxe) and two on the GBA (SMB 2 and 3). I forgot about those.

Super Mario World, however, was not remade. It's the SNES version with some very small changes (Luigi controls different, and I guess the graphics were adapted to the smaller resolution).

Same applies to Mario 64 on the DS. While there are some changes to the N64 version, it's not really a remake.

Now, do I have to go through the VC remakes and the spinoffs' remakes, or will you just accept as fact that Nintendo makes a lot of remakes?

No. Again, re-releasing a game on the VC does not a remake make.

Re:heres the spiel on why the wii is major weak sa

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy shit, did you fail third grade English? Learn to use paragraphs.

I didn't even read what you wrote, but I fail to see how the Wii is "major weak sauce" given how well it's selling. It has trounced both the 360 and the PS3 in Japan. It's well ahead of the PS3 in America, and at the rate sales are going, it will be ahead of the 360 before this year is over.

Re:heres the spiel on why the wii is major weak sa

[nagglerdamus]

dont be jealous of block text. and i dont care how the wii is selling, pop music sells well so therefore its the best!! right? i mean, dang, whatever people en masse buy MUST be good, as it automatically converts my opinion to theirs. brilliant. the n64 sold poorly but it yielded the greatest game ever made. the world is strange it seems.

What issues?

[melted]

The only issue is that there aren't any games, and their controller sucks ass. I use my PS3 as a BluRay player. It works great.