So it can arbitrarily execute java code in a browser. Well hold on, arn't browser VMs rather crippled anyway in their functionality? And thats after you take into account it'll only have the priviledges of whichever user launched the browser in the first place. So what exactly could you do with this exploit? Steal some cookies, bring up some annoying windows? Or is this about it being able to escape the sandbox? I don't really get it.
"but it's certainly got many of the properties of an OS"
As you said , an OS controls the hardware. Thats why its called an *Operating* system. It operates the system. A browser doesn't operate anything except itself.
"It does limited storage management "
So do 99.9% of applications.
"performs internal scheduling"
Multithreaded code is not the same as the OS code that supports the multithreading in the first place.
"handles some I/O (display, mouse, etc) "
So does every GUI app.
"provides programming APIs that expose much of this functionality in a unified way"
"the browser is more of an operating system than a data display application"
Err no, it isn't. Its not even close to being an OS. A data display application with some built in interpreters is ALL it is and hopefully is all it will be since most browsers are bloated enough already.
"we use it to manage the web as a shared hard drive"
Speak for yourself pal - not all of us want to manage our private files or even lives online. Just because you do doesn't make it so for everyone.
Elephants for example are well known to walk literally hundreds of miles to watering holes - some even through the namibian desert. Other migrating heard animals such as wildebeast do the same on a lesser scale.
I think the speed of light is more than an obstacle of the day. More like of the last 14 billion years and I don't see that changing in the next few decades. Do you?
... if the graphics are simpler the developers can spend more time on the AI. And if theres only a few developers this is a big deal. Its probably why most text based MUDs were generally more imaginative than WoW and its clones.
XSS affecting all browsers is irrelevant if its main line of attack is a win32 trojan. Can't say I'm bothered about javascript malware , its a crippled language and will exit as soon as I close the tab anyway.
I think you meant "In your web browser as long as you're running Windows. If you're not running Windows you really don't need to care - just have a good laugh instead".
- A bug in the VM could effect EVERY driver on the system - Drivers generally need to respond to hardware interrupts and send out data to hardware in real time. Thats unlikely to
happen if its managed code. - A VM/JIT system would only catch memory issues. It wouldn't catch out bad logic or instructions that make the
hardware go nutes and crash the machine anyway.
Given that one of the main reasons for microkernels is to seperate dodgy drivers from the kernel and hence improve stability - it doesn't say much for the implementation of amigaDOS if it kept crashing!
All I can see is some buzzwords and them waffling about microkernels - a 1970/80s concept if ever there was one which so far has proved less than impressive in the real world.
How many times is this old chestnut going to be tossed around?
MS tried a microkernel with NT and its HAL. It didn't really work very well. Most Unix varients don't even bother to try. Perhaps thats the whistle to the cluetrain that Tanenbaum really should listen out for. I can't help thinking he's still a bit cheesed off that Linux took all the glory from Minix and is now trying to up the ante and present minix as a serious OS. Sorry mate, you're 15 years too late, you had your chances and lost - stick to the teaching.
Seriously , I thought minix had been put out to pasture years ago.
Also what are 5 people going to manage that entire corporations and thousands of OSS developers failed to do in the last few decades? Ok , one of them might be the next Alan Turing and surprise us all but I won't hold my breath.
That'll be useful for the 5 billion people who don't happen to speak it. He can't claim to be creating a google killer in one sentence then complaining about how his company doesn't have the money to do multilingual in the other. Come on , at least try french and spanish , its not hard to find fluent speakers of those languages in north america!
"I, for one, think that games are the better education. Schools focus nearly entirely on the left hemisphere of the brain"
Yeah , because you're really going to learn newtons laws or how to solve quadratic equations from playing super mario.
Perhaps the arty farty girly crap could be learnt better through games , who knows, but subjects that actually require you to THINK and LEARN require being TAUGHT.
And if you think those subjects are irrlevant you might want to go find out how the computer you wrote your post on was designed. It wasn't through a load of emotional discovery bullshit.
Yes, but even in the 70s they had the tech to build in at least some sort of encoding required before the channel would be opened for you even if it was just some sort of DTMF. Sure , people would still be able to hack it but they'd require extra equipment that perhaps wouldn't be available off the shelf in truck stops.
"and that's what the hippies REALLY wanted stopped"
Not only. CND were and still are radically anti nuclear power and their poisonous legacy continues with enviromental groups such as greenpeace and friends of the earth who won't countenance nuclear power no matter what the evidence against renewables being practical. Economic factors certainly came into it but governments decided not to invest in nuclear partly because they couldn't be bothered with the inevitable protests and endless trouble that would be caused by a small minority of idiots before, during and after the stations would be built.
If it hadn't been for these retarded 1960s throwbacks who start a fscking crusade as soon as anyone mentions the word nuclear we could have had far more nuclear power plants. But no, what we need is more windmills , right? Gimme a break.
Slashdot Mirror
So it can arbitrarily execute java code in a browser. Well hold on, arn't browser VMs rather crippled anyway in their functionality? And thats after you take into account it'll only have the priviledges of whichever user launched the browser in the first place. So what exactly could you do with this exploit? Steal some cookies, bring up some annoying windows? Or is this about it being able to escape the sandbox? I don't really get it.
"And just because you don't doesn't make it so for everyone"
I wasn't making a grand pronouncement that seemed to imply that everyone who uses a browser wants it.
"Alot of online companies recently have been moving to online apps instead of static pages"
Online companies moving to online apps? Errr yeah. But what about the 99.9999% of companies who haven't?
"Parts of the internet is moving towards being a shared hard drive and they want to be able to handle it."
Fine, let them put it in a plug-in.
"but it's certainly got many of the properties of an OS"
As you said , an OS controls the hardware. Thats why its called an *Operating* system. It operates the system. A browser doesn't operate anything except itself.
"It does limited storage management "
So do 99.9% of applications.
"performs internal scheduling"
Multithreaded code is not the same as the OS code that supports the multithreading in the first place.
"handles some I/O (display, mouse, etc) "
So does every GUI app.
"provides programming APIs that expose much of this functionality in a unified way"
So does a web server. Is that an OS?
"2.5 No double buffering."
Eh? The dbe extension has been shipped with X windows for bloody years!
However most of his rant just seems to be a case of it doesn't do it the way Windows does so it must be bad. What a clueless gimp.
"the browser is more of an operating system than a data display application"
Err no, it isn't. Its not even close to being an OS. A data display application with some built in interpreters is ALL it is and hopefully is all it will be since most browsers are bloated enough already.
"we use it to manage the web as a shared hard drive"
Speak for yourself pal - not all of us want to manage our private files or even lives online. Just because you do doesn't make it so for everyone.
Elephants for example are well known to walk literally hundreds of miles to watering holes - some even through the namibian desert. Other migrating heard animals such as wildebeast do the same on a lesser scale.
"technical obstacle du jour."
I think the speed of light is more than an obstacle of the day. More like of the last 14 billion years and I don't see that changing in the next few decades. Do you?
It means you go everywhere reeaaaalllllyyy slloooooowllly...
... if the graphics are simpler the developers can spend more time on the AI. And if theres only a few developers this is a big deal. Its probably why most text based MUDs were generally more imaginative than WoW and its clones.
XSS affecting all browsers is irrelevant if its main line of attack is a win32 trojan. Can't say I'm bothered about javascript malware , its a crippled language and will exit as soon as I close the tab anyway.
"In your webbrowser."
I think you meant "In your web browser as long as you're running Windows. If you're not running Windows you really don't need to care - just have a good laugh instead".
A number of issues I can see:
- A bug in the VM could effect EVERY driver on the system
- Drivers generally need to respond to hardware interrupts and send out data to hardware in real time. Thats unlikely to
happen if its managed code.
- A VM/JIT system would only catch memory issues. It wouldn't catch out bad logic or instructions that make the
hardware go nutes and crash the machine anyway.
Given that one of the main reasons for microkernels is to seperate dodgy drivers from the kernel and hence improve stability - it doesn't say much for the implementation of amigaDOS if it kept crashing!
All I can see is some buzzwords and them waffling about microkernels - a 1970/80s concept if ever there was one which so far has proved less than impressive in the real world.
How many times is this old chestnut going to be tossed around?
MS tried a microkernel with NT and its HAL. It didn't really work very well. Most Unix varients don't even bother to try. Perhaps thats the whistle to the cluetrain that Tanenbaum really should listen out for. I can't help thinking he's still a bit cheesed off that Linux took all the glory from Minix and is now trying to up the ante and present minix as a serious OS. Sorry mate, you're 15 years too late, you had your chances and lost - stick to the teaching.
.. they want their funding back.
Seriously , I thought minix had been put out to pasture years ago.
Also what are 5 people going to manage that entire corporations and thousands of OSS developers failed to do in the last few decades? Ok , one of them might be the next Alan Turing and surprise us all but I won't hold my breath.
That'll be useful for the 5 billion people who don't happen to speak it. He can't claim to be creating a google killer in one sentence then complaining about how his company doesn't have the money to do multilingual in the other. Come on , at least try french and spanish , its not hard to find fluent speakers of those languages in north america!
"Unix had that part covered 10 years ago."
More like 30, VMS too. And mainframes before that.
"I, for one, think that games are the better education. Schools focus nearly entirely on the left hemisphere of the brain"
Yeah , because you're really going to learn newtons laws or how to solve quadratic equations from playing super mario.
Perhaps the arty farty girly crap could be learnt better through games , who knows, but subjects that actually require you to THINK and LEARN require being TAUGHT.
And if you think those subjects are irrlevant you might want to go find out how the computer you wrote your post on was designed. It wasn't through a load of emotional discovery bullshit.
I can still compile and run unix apps written 20 years ago on linux today. Can you say that for running a win32 app on Windows 3.0?
No , didn't think so.
Yes, but even in the 70s they had the tech to build in at least some sort of encoding required before the channel would be opened for you even if it was just some sort of DTMF. Sure , people would still be able to hack it but they'd require extra equipment that perhaps wouldn't be available off the shelf in truck stops.
You really can hear rare birds in the rainforest!
"and that's what the hippies REALLY wanted stopped"
Not only. CND were and still are radically anti nuclear power and their poisonous legacy continues with enviromental groups such as greenpeace and friends of the earth who won't countenance nuclear power no matter what the evidence against renewables being practical. Economic factors certainly came into it but governments decided not to invest in nuclear partly because they couldn't be bothered with the inevitable protests and endless trouble that would be caused by a small minority of idiots before, during and after the stations would be built.
Weak and disenfranchised? Oh please. The anti-nuclear lobby have had the ear of most western governments except france for the
last 20 to 30 years!
If it hadn't been for these retarded 1960s throwbacks who start a fscking crusade as soon as anyone mentions the word nuclear we could have had far more nuclear power plants. But no, what we need is more windmills , right? Gimme a break.