Yes, and who is benefiting from that training? Is the American worker gaining from this transfer of knowledge? Are American manufacturers gaining anything? Yes, you're right... something is being sold for money. America and its people are. Sold out for money by the very people we once believed had our best interests at heart, who we once trusted to lead us.
Do you think its better in the long run to let that talent remain where it is?
I don't know, none of us do, and that's the problem. The reality is that these are foreign nationals whose loyalties do not lie with the United States, do not lie with their employers here. Your argument is that we should encourage advanced knowledge workers to stay here in order to prevent them from serving in their home countries. An artificial brain-drain of sorts. Okay, there's some merit to that: but it is a risky proposition and we should understand those risks. The flip side of the situation is that, once we have provided them with specific skills and knowledge, if they do choose to return home (assuming they have any choice in the matter) that knowledge goes with them. Our loss, their gain.
I'm not saying I have a solution to this issue, but what we're doing now isn't a viable long term strategy. Giving away a candy store rarely is, if you happen to be the owner.
but they use a quantum *handwaving* thing to ensure the bits sent traditionally haven't been messed with.
It's a Force thing. The quantum circuits say, "you don't need to see his information" and anyone trying to listen in simply waves the information on its way.
Do you know that some other countries will simply not let you in at all?
Many of them would shoot you on the spot, or haul you off to prison and let you rot. And... that's their right! It's their country. What angers me is that some people, for their own selfish reasons, seem to think that America should be considered exempt from the same fundamental principles by which all other nations abide. Yet I can pretty much guarantee if one of us tried to set foot in their territory without proper authorization they'd be the first ones crying foul.
Yes, well, you pretty much made my point for me, thank you. The difference, as I see it, as that the original Native Americans didn't have much of a choice in the matter.
Flamebait, eh. Apparently there are one hell of a lot of people that don't grasp basic concepts like "sovereignty", and "property", and other basics such as "This is my land. It is not your land." I wonder how many of the people that modded me flamebait would feel if what is happening to America today started happening to their country. As a matter of fact, it is happening in a number of places around the world. From what I can tell they aren't very happy about it either.
I don't count any film whose major characters refer to "Tobin's Spirit Guide", and a "focused, non-terminal repeating phantasm, or a Class Five full roaming vapor" as particularly scientific. There was a thin, shiny patina of technical jargon overlaid upon a movie that was anything but science fiction. Don't misunderstand me: I loved Ghostbusters ("Yes. It's true. This man has no dick") but I wouldn't hold it up as an example of the proper portrayal of modern science in cinema.
Sliders is a much better choice. Sure, Quinn's great discovery, as he put it "crossing the Einstein-Rosen Bridge" is something of a gimme, but the series saw a lot of problems being solved a rather scientific manner, at least for a TV show. Of course, with the Professor along it could hardly be otherwise, could it?
It's also legal in many American cities; people just tend to assume that toplessness is illegal. Take, for instance, New York city:
The Court of Appeals of New York ruled in 1992 that exposure of a bare female breast violates this law only when it takes place in a commercial context.
Which just continues to show that all sophisticated security systems can and will be defeated by morons. There is no force on the planet more powerful than human stupidity.
True, although one has to wonder how the average Slashdotter's personal information would be modded. If there were any credit card or bank account numbers involved, that would probably generate a +5 Interesting, as would any substantial amount of porn. Any correspondence with, say, the KKK would likely result in +5 Flamebait.
The American manufacturing sector was pretty much raped by China
That is a load of xenophobic bullshit.
I'm entitled to my opinion, and that opinion has been borne out by current events and my own personal experience in the industrial sector for the past twenty five years. You probably haven't seen a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. Most people don't have firsthand experience with this, so I can understand your natural desire to whitewash the situation, given that there really is no easy solution. Perhaps there is no solution, mainly because the problem is less a matter of China as it is corruption and naked greed within our own ranks.
This is not xenophobic bullshit either: I'm not bigoted in any particular way if that's what you mean, but I am trying to say, "look, this is a problem." I do have a pair of eyes capable of seeing what China is doing. Now, to be fair, it's exactly what Russia, Japan, the United States and a number of other countries have been doing for ages, I agree. However, China has been exceptionally persistent and pervasive in comparison, and have availed themselves of the openness of our culture, and are using it to their advantage. They're a big country, with a lot of smart people. They can afford to hit on multiple fronts.
You can decide for yourself if what they're doing is "right" or "wrong", if you feel you can assign some arbitrary moral value to their activities. That's a waste of time: the world is full of people and countries out only for themselves and that's not going to change any time soon. My complaint is that it is not my country's best interests to allow this to continue. If you can't agree on that then we don't have much to discuss: sit back and enjoy the show. Then, when America's manufacturing sector has been completely hollowed out, and we can no longer support or defend ourselves, maybe I'll be around to exhibit some smug self-satisfaction and say, "See? I told you so." I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
What Japan did to our electronics industry was make high-quality parts available at drastically lower cost. If we still had to get all our RAM from TI or Intel, or even worse, get our discrete transistors from Fairchild, the worldwide electronics industry would be retarded by at least a decade, maybe two.
Perhaps you're right, perhaps the worldwide electronics industry would have been slowed for a while (then again, maybe not... that's just your opinion) but at least we'd still have retained a large percentage of domestic manufacturing. We've lost much of that capacity. How is that good for us, again? No nation in its right mind (and ours is not in that state at the moment) sees significant dependence on other countries as a good thing, even if those countries are nominally allies. Japan is an ally, for now... China is not and probably never will be. Yet we are acting as if we can trust them to indefinitely supply our needs at firesale prices. China is not an extension of the United States: it is a totalitarian state with its own unknown goals. We must be crazy to put so many of our collective eggs in their basket, that's all I can say.
Where you're also wrong is in your presumption that Japan simply beat us at our own game, fair and square. It was worse than that, although I suppose you could call illegal dumping and predatory pricing as "drastically lower cost". I suggest you educate yourself a little as to what Japan actually did, and what China is doing today. When you deliberately sell your products at an artificially low price, for a sustained period (if necessary, taking a loss while you're doing it) for the express purpose of wiping out your competition, you are doing precisely what I said. That's what Japan did to a few key sectors of our domestic manufacturing, and what China is trying to do to even more of it. Maybe it is not deliberate in China's case: maybe it's jus
So, in other words, by reducing the regulatory burden on their business, the scientific knowledge and technical capability to create a massive industrial base came out of thin air? No, I don't think so. Yes, you're right: by relaxing some of the rules they made industrialization possible, true enough, but it took a lot more than that. The American manufacturing sector was pretty much raped by China to get hold of whatever it needed to build its domestic industries: then, once they succeeded in decimating specific manufacturing operations here, they bought up all the equipment and tooling for a song. That helped jumpstart their own plants. The textile industry is a good example of that process: we hardly have one anymore.
Honestly, as I've said before it's much the same as what Japan did to our electronics sector many years ago, just on a larger scale.
Of course, you've forgotten that AT&T was never an illegal monopoly, not in the sense that Microsoft is. AT&T was a government instituted and regulated monopoly. I doubt that AT&T's management ever really understood why the Feds turned on them.
Probably around the time the Statue of Liberty came along with the phrase "Give me your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free." Or maybe earlier, with the idea of the Beacon on the Hill, America being an example for other nations and peoples to follow.
Nope. You still have it wrong, just like the poster that followed you. It's all fine and dandy for us to be an inspiration for other peoples to follow. I'm all for setting a good example. However, this situation is far more complex than you make it out to be, and your simplification may very well cost us everything we hold dear. America is no longer in a situation where we need more people, see immigration as a way to achieve that without waiting for the population to rise on its own.
Understand what I'm trying to say here. It's not that I think American should simply close it's borders and not allow anyone in. People do come here from all over the world. Some few of those eventually earn their citizenship (my fiancee, for example, is Nigerian: she's been here for about twenty five years and became a Citizen a few years ago) and become valued members of our society. However, though she is Nigerian by birth she is an American at heart! This is vitally important for any society that accepts immigrants and naturalizes them. Do you understand our traditions, our way of life? Are you willing to become a part of us... not a little bit, not mostly, but all the way? Do your loyalties lie with us, or with the nation of your birth? Are you just here to pig your share of the goodies? Do you truly understand what it means to be an American?
If not... we don't want you. There's a certain reality here that is being, so far as I can tell, completely ignored by all the pro-H1B, pro-amnesty crowd. A couple of points, 1. We have laws regarding immigration. They should be followed, because they were put into place a long, long time ago and for good reason. We ignore them at our peril and 2. We want people that have become assimilated into our culture, that are as much a part of our way of life as possible. Assimilation is a process, and is one that takes time. It's important, assimilation is, and it is why we don't just hand out citizenships to everyone that wants one. No matter how intelligent, how educated, how talented you are, we want you to be one of us. This not a uniquely American ideal either: all nations expect that their citizens be loyal to their country, whether they were born there or not. Japan, for example, is particularly concerned with those of foreign birth, whom they permit to call themselves "Japanese". The insist that those individuals be as truly Japanese as humanly possible.
My fiancee is one of those "huddled masses" of which you speak. Let me tell you something: she earned the right to be here, to enjoy everything our great nation has to offer. She didn't just wander across the border and decide, "hey, this place is nice. I think I'll set up shop here." No... she followed the rules, obeyed the law, and now has all the same rights that I, a natural-born citizen, have enjoyed all my life. I'll tell you something else: it absolutely pulls her cork when President Bush foams at the mouth about granting several million criminals amnesty for their crimes, and giving them many of the same rights that she worked so hard to receive.
You really need to understand that unchecked immigration is a death sentence for any society.
I suppose you felt witty and insightful for that remark, but you know as well as I that the situations are not comparable. Few people claim that what the European colonists, followed by the United States Federal Government, did to the indigenous population was anything other than "might makes right." The Gold Rush period was particularly disturbing, considering that the Native Americans were abiding by the territorial agreements. But it is what usually happens when a more powerful culture first encounters a weaker one that has something the other wants. It's happened throughout human history, it's still happening and it will continue to happen.
Your comment is interesting. Apparently, as an American I'm not to be allowed to make legitimate commentary on activities and trends happening within the borders of my own country that I perceive as being detrimental to me and mine. Nor, as an American, am I permitted to believe that our immigration laws should be considered anything more than a minor inconvenience for anyone, from anywhere, who decides they want to live here. Tell you what: go to any other country on Earth and try that. You'll be laughed out of the room.
What I object to (besides the fact that America is willingly training its competition in the global economy) is the fundamental hypocrisy I see in most discussions on this issue. Any person from another country that perceives any kind of a threat from the United States feels perfectly free to criticize and lambaste us for all sorts of real and imagined misdeeds: it's become a form of entertainment it appears. But let an American call a halt and say, "Now just wait a goddamned minute. What's being done to us isn't kosher either" and he is immediately called all sorts of names (someone recently called me a "paleface") and dismissed as a bigoted fool.
I have as much right as anyone to look at what it is happening all around me, and call 'em as I see 'em. And I will... WhiteEyes.
In contrast to the CSI series which take liberties with the science and technology they portray, Numb3rs makes an impressive effort to get the math and science right. I understand that there are several mathematicians who work as consultants for the show. Much of what they show is way over my head, but it's like reading works by Arthur C. Clarke and other hard-science-fiction authors: it's nice to know that the math presented is real.
Sure... I might want to stay here as well, depending upon where I was from. That isn't necessarily what their government wants, nor is it necessarily what we want, and in any event people don't get to just enter a nation, go to school there, and just decide to stay because it suits them. Well, that's not how it's supposed to work, anyway. Generally speaking, the folks that were there first (in most places in the world, they're known as "citizens") make laws regarding who they want to have as neighbors.
Where did the idea start that America is just some vast smorgasbord of cool stuff that anyone can just take for themselves any time they please?
Actually, it is. China reached the point of significant industrialization in an incredibly short time by instituting an organized knowledge transfer program (and not just the U.S., but we were the most concentrated stockpile of information around, with the fewest restrictions on foreign students.) Call it what you want, but China's people came here, educated themselves as to what a high-technology culture needs to build and maintain the required industry... and then went home and did just that. India is now doing the same thing. Right or wrong, conspiracy or not... that's what's going on.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes, and who is benefiting from that training? Is the American worker gaining from this transfer of knowledge? Are American manufacturers gaining anything? Yes, you're right ... something is being sold for money. America and its people are. Sold out for money by the very people we once believed had our best interests at heart, who we once trusted to lead us.
Do you think its better in the long run to let that talent remain where it is?
I don't know, none of us do, and that's the problem. The reality is that these are foreign nationals whose loyalties do not lie with the United States, do not lie with their employers here. Your argument is that we should encourage advanced knowledge workers to stay here in order to prevent them from serving in their home countries. An artificial brain-drain of sorts. Okay, there's some merit to that: but it is a risky proposition and we should understand those risks. The flip side of the situation is that, once we have provided them with specific skills and knowledge, if they do choose to return home (assuming they have any choice in the matter) that knowledge goes with them. Our loss, their gain.
I'm not saying I have a solution to this issue, but what we're doing now isn't a viable long term strategy. Giving away a candy store rarely is, if you happen to be the owner.
but they use a quantum *handwaving* thing to ensure the bits sent traditionally haven't been messed with.
It's a Force thing. The quantum circuits say, "you don't need to see his information" and anyone trying to listen in simply waves the information on its way.
Do you know that some other countries will simply not let you in at all?
... that's their right! It's their country. What angers me is that some people, for their own selfish reasons, seem to think that America should be considered exempt from the same fundamental principles by which all other nations abide. Yet I can pretty much guarantee if one of us tried to set foot in their territory without proper authorization they'd be the first ones crying foul.
Many of them would shoot you on the spot, or haul you off to prison and let you rot. And
Hypocrites.
Yes, well, you pretty much made my point for me, thank you. The difference, as I see it, as that the original Native Americans didn't have much of a choice in the matter.
We do.
Flamebait, eh. Apparently there are one hell of a lot of people that don't grasp basic concepts like "sovereignty", and "property", and other basics such as "This is my land. It is not your land." I wonder how many of the people that modded me flamebait would feel if what is happening to America today started happening to their country. As a matter of fact, it is happening in a number of places around the world. From what I can tell they aren't very happy about it either.
I don't count any film whose major characters refer to "Tobin's Spirit Guide", and a "focused, non-terminal repeating phantasm, or a Class Five full roaming vapor" as particularly scientific. There was a thin, shiny patina of technical jargon overlaid upon a movie that was anything but science fiction. Don't misunderstand me: I loved Ghostbusters ("Yes. It's true. This man has no dick") but I wouldn't hold it up as an example of the proper portrayal of modern science in cinema.
Sliders is a much better choice. Sure, Quinn's great discovery, as he put it "crossing the Einstein-Rosen Bridge" is something of a gimme, but the series saw a lot of problems being solved a rather scientific manner, at least for a TV show. Of course, with the Professor along it could hardly be otherwise, could it?
"Quickly, Bones! Transmit the quantum-encrypted packet!"
... it's DEAD, Jim!"
"I can't
It's also legal in many American cities; people just tend to assume that toplessness is illegal. Take, for instance, New York city:
The Court of Appeals of New York ruled in 1992 that exposure of a bare female breast violates this law only when it takes place in a commercial context.
Okay, so no nude hookers, I get it.
Which just continues to show that all sophisticated security systems can and will be defeated by morons. There is no force on the planet more powerful than human stupidity.
True, although one has to wonder how the average Slashdotter's personal information would be modded. If there were any credit card or bank account numbers involved, that would probably generate a +5 Interesting, as would any substantial amount of porn. Any correspondence with, say, the KKK would likely result in +5 Flamebait.
I do wish, however, that Debian picked a less geeky name than "IceWeasel" for their FireFox build.
I have the feeling it was a not-so-subtle dig at the Mozilla people.
The American manufacturing sector was pretty much raped by China
... that's just your opinion) but at least we'd still have retained a large percentage of domestic manufacturing. We've lost much of that capacity. How is that good for us, again? No nation in its right mind (and ours is not in that state at the moment) sees significant dependence on other countries as a good thing, even if those countries are nominally allies. Japan is an ally, for now ... China is not and probably never will be. Yet we are acting as if we can trust them to indefinitely supply our needs at firesale prices. China is not an extension of the United States: it is a totalitarian state with its own unknown goals. We must be crazy to put so many of our collective eggs in their basket, that's all I can say.
That is a load of xenophobic bullshit.
I'm entitled to my opinion, and that opinion has been borne out by current events and my own personal experience in the industrial sector for the past twenty five years. You probably haven't seen a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. Most people don't have firsthand experience with this, so I can understand your natural desire to whitewash the situation, given that there really is no easy solution. Perhaps there is no solution, mainly because the problem is less a matter of China as it is corruption and naked greed within our own ranks.
This is not xenophobic bullshit either: I'm not bigoted in any particular way if that's what you mean, but I am trying to say, "look, this is a problem." I do have a pair of eyes capable of seeing what China is doing. Now, to be fair, it's exactly what Russia, Japan, the United States and a number of other countries have been doing for ages, I agree. However, China has been exceptionally persistent and pervasive in comparison, and have availed themselves of the openness of our culture, and are using it to their advantage. They're a big country, with a lot of smart people. They can afford to hit on multiple fronts.
You can decide for yourself if what they're doing is "right" or "wrong", if you feel you can assign some arbitrary moral value to their activities. That's a waste of time: the world is full of people and countries out only for themselves and that's not going to change any time soon. My complaint is that it is not my country's best interests to allow this to continue. If you can't agree on that then we don't have much to discuss: sit back and enjoy the show. Then, when America's manufacturing sector has been completely hollowed out, and we can no longer support or defend ourselves, maybe I'll be around to exhibit some smug self-satisfaction and say, "See? I told you so." I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
What Japan did to our electronics industry was make high-quality parts available at drastically lower cost. If we still had to get all our RAM from TI or Intel, or even worse, get our discrete transistors from Fairchild, the worldwide electronics industry would be retarded by at least a decade, maybe two.
Perhaps you're right, perhaps the worldwide electronics industry would have been slowed for a while (then again, maybe not
Where you're also wrong is in your presumption that Japan simply beat us at our own game, fair and square. It was worse than that, although I suppose you could call illegal dumping and predatory pricing as "drastically lower cost". I suggest you educate yourself a little as to what Japan actually did, and what China is doing today. When you deliberately sell your products at an artificially low price, for a sustained period (if necessary, taking a loss while you're doing it) for the express purpose of wiping out your competition, you are doing precisely what I said. That's what Japan did to a few key sectors of our domestic manufacturing, and what China is trying to do to even more of it. Maybe it is not deliberate in China's case: maybe it's jus
So, in other words, by reducing the regulatory burden on their business, the scientific knowledge and technical capability to create a massive industrial base came out of thin air? No, I don't think so. Yes, you're right: by relaxing some of the rules they made industrialization possible, true enough, but it took a lot more than that. The American manufacturing sector was pretty much raped by China to get hold of whatever it needed to build its domestic industries: then, once they succeeded in decimating specific manufacturing operations here, they bought up all the equipment and tooling for a song. That helped jumpstart their own plants. The textile industry is a good example of that process: we hardly have one anymore.
Honestly, as I've said before it's much the same as what Japan did to our electronics sector many years ago, just on a larger scale.
Of course, you've forgotten that AT&T was never an illegal monopoly, not in the sense that Microsoft is. AT&T was a government instituted and regulated monopoly. I doubt that AT&T's management ever really understood why the Feds turned on them.
Given the problems that France is facing right now, I can pretty much guarantee they won't have that outlook anymore.
Probably around the time the Statue of Liberty came along with the phrase "Give me your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free." Or maybe earlier, with the idea of the Beacon on the Hill, America being an example for other nations and peoples to follow.
... not a little bit, not mostly, but all the way? Do your loyalties lie with us, or with the nation of your birth? Are you just here to pig your share of the goodies? Do you truly understand what it means to be an American?
... we don't want you. There's a certain reality here that is being, so far as I can tell, completely ignored by all the pro-H1B, pro-amnesty crowd. A couple of points, 1. We have laws regarding immigration. They should be followed, because they were put into place a long, long time ago and for good reason. We ignore them at our peril and 2. We want people that have become assimilated into our culture, that are as much a part of our way of life as possible. Assimilation is a process, and is one that takes time. It's important, assimilation is, and it is why we don't just hand out citizenships to everyone that wants one. No matter how intelligent, how educated, how talented you are, we want you to be one of us. This not a uniquely American ideal either: all nations expect that their citizens be loyal to their country, whether they were born there or not. Japan, for example, is particularly concerned with those of foreign birth, whom they permit to call themselves "Japanese". The insist that those individuals be as truly Japanese as humanly possible.
... she followed the rules, obeyed the law, and now has all the same rights that I, a natural-born citizen, have enjoyed all my life. I'll tell you something else: it absolutely pulls her cork when President Bush foams at the mouth about granting several million criminals amnesty for their crimes, and giving them many of the same rights that she worked so hard to receive.
Nope. You still have it wrong, just like the poster that followed you. It's all fine and dandy for us to be an inspiration for other peoples to follow. I'm all for setting a good example. However, this situation is far more complex than you make it out to be, and your simplification may very well cost us everything we hold dear. America is no longer in a situation where we need more people, see immigration as a way to achieve that without waiting for the population to rise on its own.
Understand what I'm trying to say here. It's not that I think American should simply close it's borders and not allow anyone in. People do come here from all over the world. Some few of those eventually earn their citizenship (my fiancee, for example, is Nigerian: she's been here for about twenty five years and became a Citizen a few years ago) and become valued members of our society. However, though she is Nigerian by birth she is an American at heart! This is vitally important for any society that accepts immigrants and naturalizes them. Do you understand our traditions, our way of life? Are you willing to become a part of us
If not
My fiancee is one of those "huddled masses" of which you speak. Let me tell you something: she earned the right to be here, to enjoy everything our great nation has to offer. She didn't just wander across the border and decide, "hey, this place is nice. I think I'll set up shop here." No
You really need to understand that unchecked immigration is a death sentence for any society.
I suppose you felt witty and insightful for that remark, but you know as well as I that the situations are not comparable. Few people claim that what the European colonists, followed by the United States Federal Government, did to the indigenous population was anything other than "might makes right." The Gold Rush period was particularly disturbing, considering that the Native Americans were abiding by the territorial agreements. But it is what usually happens when a more powerful culture first encounters a weaker one that has something the other wants. It's happened throughout human history, it's still happening and it will continue to happen.
... WhiteEyes.
Your comment is interesting. Apparently, as an American I'm not to be allowed to make legitimate commentary on activities and trends happening within the borders of my own country that I perceive as being detrimental to me and mine. Nor, as an American, am I permitted to believe that our immigration laws should be considered anything more than a minor inconvenience for anyone, from anywhere, who decides they want to live here. Tell you what: go to any other country on Earth and try that. You'll be laughed out of the room.
What I object to (besides the fact that America is willingly training its competition in the global economy) is the fundamental hypocrisy I see in most discussions on this issue. Any person from another country that perceives any kind of a threat from the United States feels perfectly free to criticize and lambaste us for all sorts of real and imagined misdeeds: it's become a form of entertainment it appears. But let an American call a halt and say, "Now just wait a goddamned minute. What's being done to us isn't kosher either" and he is immediately called all sorts of names (someone recently called me a "paleface") and dismissed as a bigoted fool.
I have as much right as anyone to look at what it is happening all around me, and call 'em as I see 'em. And I will
In contrast to the CSI series which take liberties with the science and technology they portray, Numb3rs makes an impressive effort to get the math and science right. I understand that there are several mathematicians who work as consultants for the show. Much of what they show is way over my head, but it's like reading works by Arthur C. Clarke and other hard-science-fiction authors: it's nice to know that the math presented is real.
Either that or their executives are insane and actually believe themselves to be gods or something...
I wouldn't discard that as a possible explanation either.
Season four premiered last night. It's actually a decent show.
Nah ... I think the Vikings started the whole thing off. But I think you know what I meant.
Numb3rs.
Sure ... I might want to stay here as well, depending upon where I was from. That isn't necessarily what their government wants, nor is it necessarily what we want, and in any event people don't get to just enter a nation, go to school there, and just decide to stay because it suits them. Well, that's not how it's supposed to work, anyway. Generally speaking, the folks that were there first (in most places in the world, they're known as "citizens") make laws regarding who they want to have as neighbors.
Where did the idea start that America is just some vast smorgasbord of cool stuff that anyone can just take for themselves any time they please?
Actually, it is. China reached the point of significant industrialization in an incredibly short time by instituting an organized knowledge transfer program (and not just the U.S., but we were the most concentrated stockpile of information around, with the fewest restrictions on foreign students.) Call it what you want, but China's people came here, educated themselves as to what a high-technology culture needs to build and maintain the required industry ... and then went home and did just that. India is now doing the same thing. Right or wrong, conspiracy or not ... that's what's going on.