Anyone who believes this is frankly a kook. I LIVE right next to Richard's Gabauer airport in Missouri. Internment camp my ass. It's an airforce base that's been closed down and converted to a huge Distribution Center for trucking.
I noticed you got moderated flamebait for repsonding to a legitimate question? They need to fix this whole moderation problem they have so that it's not so much a popularity contest. There are so many posts modded down that are really good posts, and frankly are more intelligent than some of the ones that get modded up. Here is what I have noticed:
1) Liberal posts get modded up faster 2) The "middle of the road" can't figure out which side is right, but I will sound intelligent anyway posts also get modded up. 3) The cliche posts.
Critical thinking is lacking these days, which is really sad.
It's hard to forgive someone for basically saying that we are ALL a bunch of Genghis Kahn babykilleres when that simply wasn't the case. He was saying while we still had POWS over there. They Viet Cong then played his speech to those same American in the POW camps. Several of the swifties were in those camps and specifically remember being tortured while having to listen to Kerry rant on with that specific speech. i.e. The Viet Cong used Kerry's speech as propoganda and as a tool for mentally torturing our troops that were still POWs.
"Several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia , not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. They re-lived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do. They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals , cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side... We are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia."
And he said this while hiw fellow soldiers were in the Hanoi Hilton getting the shit kicked out of them and having his recording played to them over and over.
Oh, and nevermind the basic fact that KERRY WAS THE ONE FULL OF SHIT.
If there was a wall and no arabs were allowed to go into israel how would they destroy israel? How can the hapless palestenians authority hope to ever defeat one of the most powerful armies on the planet?
Because they (the Palestinians) would still complain that the Israelis are occupying their land. It's an infinite loop. It never ends. They want nothing less (mainly for religous reasons) than the destruction of Israel.
But there is moral justification. People who are living occupation have the right to fight to try and gain their freedom. That's the difference here
1) The occupation is justified, suicide bombings aren't. If they pull out, Israel is toast, and they know it.
2) You refuse to give any creedance to Israel defending itself while at the same time trying to justify the Palestinian's right to kill little babies. Israel wouldn't be occupying the land if the Arabs would have left Israel alone in the first place. But pride's a bitch, and the Arabs have a lot of it, so we are where are because of it.
Just build the wall where the UN says the border of Israel is. Keep out all arabs and voila no more terrorists attacks. Why is that so hard to understand? Just wall yourself in and keep out the arabs. That is what they are doing anyway just do it according to international law.
Bzzzt. Wrong. The Palestinian authority have already called for the complete destruction of Israel. How would building a wall according to "Internation Standards" do anygood to the Palestinians who don't give a shit anyways?
What the fuck? Doesn't israel have f-15s, cruise missiles, helicopters up the wazoo? If it does not have enough planes the US would be happy to lend them a few hundred.
Nice. Change the subject. The old "hat trick." "Look over here, not over there". You implied earlier Israel could retaliate with nukes, but when I state that it's not stratgic, you try "Plan B" and use a bunch of other examples.
There is no way in hell any arab country can take on israel. Ever. Ariel Sharon can kill every single arab on the face of the planet tommorow if he wants. There is nothing anybody can do to stop him. Nothing.
Yep you're right. You prove my point right there. By your own logic of Palestinian oppresion, by what those nasty Jews commit on a daily basis, the Palestinians should already be dead by now.
Say it with me. Israel is an immoral country conducting an immoral, illegal and unnecessary occupation of 3+ million human beings. The only historically recent precedent for such despicable behavior by a country is South Africa and you saw how long that lasted. Eventually this occupation will corrupt the jewish soul. Eventually your lame ass rationalizations will eat you from the inside out. It's wrong to torture people, it's wrong to deny them basic human rights, it's wrong to kill them. it's just wrong and before you say it two wrong don't make a right.
You refuse to look at reality. You want to believe this fantasy of big bad Israel of yours, and refuse to believe otherwise. The only thing that is happening with the Palestinian homicide bombings is that they are ensuring future generations of occupation. They Israelis would be foolish to pull out, as anyone would.
And BTW please stop giving me bogus links from jewish organizations. I would not trust any numbers from them as farther then I could throw an elephant. As this converstaion shows jews are incabable of perceiving the evil deeds committed by Israel. To them any action is justified and they can find plenty of bogus reasons like "they never had a country in the first place" and "all of the arab countires have less money then spain" or some shit.
You have yet to prove a single point. Yu have yet to admit what the Palestinians are doing is wrong.
Say it with me:
"There is no moral justification for the Palestinians to conduct terrorism".
You have yet to prove anything except that you refuse to open your mind and become a true liberal.
They need to pull out period. Those people deserve freedom just as much as ony other people on the planet. If they don't want terrorists they can seal their borders. They can build a damned wall just like they are doing now but on their official borders. They can prevent palestenians from entering their country. The occupation of palestine is illegal and immoral.
The Palestinians need to stop the terrorist attacks period. But I doubt that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
And regrading the wall, according to the Palestinians, the wall would start at the Mediterranean sea, with Israel not even existing as a country. They have turned down peace since the British split up "Palestine/Jordan". The Jews took their nation when they had the chance whereas the Palestinians (arabs) have just been bitching and moaning that Israel exists in the first place. In simple terms, it pissed the arabs off, they attacked Israel, Israel whooped their ass, and we are where we are today because of it. And now Israel has nukes to prevent future attacks, and everyone know they will use them the next time an arab country goes in.
All this bullshit about "isreal needs to defend itself" has got to go. Israel is the third largest nuclear power in the world. It has the best armed forces int he middle east. It is immune from international law. It can completely anhilate any country it wants and regularly bombs other countries like syria and lebanon with no worries about retaliation.
What are they supposed to do? Nuke themselves? Nuclear weapons aren't very strategic for situations like terrorism. You need the right tool for the job. The "Palestinians" don't want peace, only the destruction of Israel.
Since the US would completely turn any country that dared to attack israel into parking lot overnight it is for all practical purposes the most powerful country on the planet.
I doubt that. The U.S. (sadly) is overextended now and I think would just watch, just as it would watch if Taiwan were "resorbed" into China. The arab nations have already attacked several times before. The only difference/reason they haven't attacked again is for fear that Israel would herself turn them into glass.
Israel needs to pull out. It's the only moraly and legally acceptable solution. It needs to stop killing thousands of civillians a year.
Sigh - stop it with the thousands of civilians getting killed each year. It's just not happening. It may sound romantic for you, but it's just not. I gave you a link last time that showed you the total number of Palestinians killed in total, and it's around 2,000 over a many year period. Here's a simpler link:
http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resources/mrates. as p
It needs to stop building settlements, it needs to stop taking other peoples property, it needs to stop torturing people, it needs to join the rest of the civilized world.
What do you do when your enemy will never make peace, never stop until you are destroyed? That is the situation the Israelis are in now. The Palestinians don't want peace. They have been given olive branch after olive branch only to walk away every time.
There is no need to torture the palestenians, there in no need for apartheid. Israel can and should act like any other civilized country. Either pull out or assimilate. Either make these people your citizens or get out.
I agree with you here. But both the Israelis and Palestinians are too stubborn to give even an inch though, and I doubt it will happen in our lifetime.:(
Context means everything. Your sense of context is warped. You think that it's OK to kill palestenians because they didn't officially have a country I don't.
No I don't. Thus continuing your warped version of context.
Israelis. They occupy the west bank and the gaza strip. This occupation is illegal according to the UN and the international laws.
Yes, true. But everytime they pull out, the terrorist attacks get worse. You fail to give any creedance to the threat that Isreal faces.
Yes I do. They think that by making the palestenians suffer they can get them to stop resisting the occupation. They want to subjugate the palestenians by breaking them. They believe that the best way to break them is by torturing them in every way possible including killing their children.
Now who's warped? The Palestinian terrorists have vowed to kill civilians, while the Israelis have tried to avoid them and to defend themselves by going after the terrorists. Both sides have stated this, yet you want to believe the opposite.
* I believe both sides aren't perfect, but that Israel does have a right to defend itself. * I believe that it has more meaning that some simple minded occupation, i.e. a religious backdrop where fanatical Islamists will not stop until they blow themselves up or Israelis leave. (I believe that there are innocent victims on both sides). * I have tried to give you facts. You haven't given any facts, only opinions, backed up with more opinions.
* You want to oversimplify it then try to use apartheid as a justification for Palesntinian terrorism, which you seem to think is OK to blow up little Israeli school children. * You believe only the Israelis are wrong, and the fanatical Islam has nothing to do with the current situation. * You believe that "Any settler can walk up to any palestenian, pull out a gun and shoot them dead without any punishment", then can't back it up. I refute that arguement. * "Ah yes let's blame the victims. I am sure you had nothing to with it." - what the hell does this mean? Who is "you" by the way? You sound like a palestinian terrorist. Are you Muslim? Are you proving my point now that it is religious in nature? * "I was just counting the civillians. Israel kills them by the thousands every year. Of course it wounds and leaves homeless tens of thousands more". Bullshit. The total numbers are below. * "LOL. OK so Nelson Mandela is a communist *snicker*. Ok so I guess that means he knows nothing about apartheid right?" - you thought I was joking, only to find out I was actually right: http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/goodcom.ht ml http://www.sacp.org.za/docs/history/nm900729.h tml http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/speeches/releas e.htm l * on and on and on.
The only thing you have proven, is that you are uneducated, ill-informed, and biased against the Israelis. You have given no facts to support any of your claims. You need to read history, then look at the current situation for what it is:
History example: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/
You keep dancing around the issue, making up excuses and misdirecting all the while ignoring the real issue.
Right now, this very minute there are over 3 million human beings living under israeli rule. Peple who are being killed, tortured, humiliated, living in abject poverty and despair.
You have made a lot of excuses for this dispicable rule of the isralies. Basically your arguments are scattered and don't make any sense. Does the fact that the palestenians didn't officially have a country mean that the israelis get to torture them? Does the fact that the GDP of all of islam is smaller then spains mean it's OK for israel to deny human rights to palestenians? Does the fact that people immigrated illegally mean Israel gets to drop bombs into crowded citites?
Not one thing you have said provides justification for apartheid. How many children did the Israeli army kill last year? What was the justification for it?
You apparently haven't answered any of my questions nor have you looked at any of the underlying factors for the "why" we are where we are today. Apparently context means nothing to you. I am arguing the point at a completely different levels.
I am trying to decide if you are either anti-semetic or are just plain ignorant. Either way you need to look at the bigger picture.
The issue is that we are in the situation we are in today for religious regions. You want to argue that the bible is a bunch of myths. You obviously don't believe that religion motivates people. You obviously would rather support a jihadist movement over Israeli self-defense, and then spin it and call it apartheid and make silly comparisons to South Africa. I can go on and on.
And since you like to keep changing to subject I will ask you a question:
Who are the aggressors? Israelis or Arabs (aka "Palenstinians")
Why? When did it start? Links to prove? I really do want to know why you believe the Israeli/Palestinian situation in the context you do.
My answer: It is the Arabs. They (for relogious reasons) want nothing more than to destroy Israel. Is Israel not allowed to defend itself? Do you honestly think that Israel deliberately targets innocent women and children? It must take a lot of guts to deliberately blow up buses in the name of Alah eh? I believe Israel is doing nothing more than defending itself. The nature of Islam does now allow one to be passive against it. You will simply be consumed if you stand back and watch.
Your answer is to just change the subject or to simply refute it without any sort of proof. You are very persistent though. I will give you that.
Oh I suppose those 500 pound bombs were delivering cinnamon buns then huh? And those mass graves? do they contain barbie dolls?
Do you mean the ones Saddam dug?
Listen I am sorry that the reality of the situation is so harsh and not to your liking but you can't deny that american soldiers have killed tens of thousands of innocent civillians. Why? To put down some insurgency in fallujiah or najaf. What the fuck kind of reason is that? Why is that your job?
It sucks that civilians get killed, and frankly those same civilians just want the war to end. But the government there was supporting individuals that would like to "end" America. No one likes war.
Are you seriously claiming the US military never kills civillians?
Oh and keep thinking that you are "protecting people's freedom" I am sure it helps you sleep better. Too bad the only people who deserve freedom also happen to have something you want. The people in Sudan, Liberia, china, north korea, palestine, chechnia etc can continue to starve, be massacred, subjugated and die off in disgusting numbers because you can't be bothered to lift a finger to help them. It's much more important to deliver najaf back to alawi, we just can't let some cleric control a city damnit. Those people deserve to be ruled by somebody we handpicked not some damned cleric!
lol. You don't get it. Welcome to anti-Utopia, where reality is and fantasy isn't. You do nothing but bash the U.S, so move the fuck out and let us be.
So let me get this straight. Your arguments are that.
1) The entire west bank and gaza stip was empty before israel took over the land. There was nobody living there.
They didn't "take it over". Britain had control before they decided to divide it into Palestine/Jordan. And if you'd know your history, Palestine was the first name given to the whole region, but I digress. You can try in vain all you want on that one, but just believing something doesn't make it true.
2) If you see some empty land in which nobody is living you can take it, build housing on it and declare it to be a part of your country.
Have can you take an indefensible stand to the death, have no proof, only lies, then try to just bash the other position with nothing but lies? Care you back up your statements? No, didn't think so.
3) because the palestenians did not officially have a nation before it's OK to torture them, to kill them, to humiliate them and to deny them any human rights whatsoever.
Nope, didn't say that. And that's not happening. Both sides are the ones losing, but you refuse to see the truth for what it is.
4) If people illegally immigrate to a place then it's OK to kill them.
Actually, if you'd have read the links I sent you, the only people illegally immigrating were the Arabs into Palestine around the turn of the century. The Jews were pretty much shut out during WWII.
Nice religion that judaism.
I'd pick Judaism over Islam any day. Islam espouses hate, bigotry and most of all stupidity by keeping its citizens nothing more than a bunch of illiterats - no sciense, no math, no literature. The combined GDP of all of the Muslim countries in the world is less than that of Spain. The only thing they are good at are hate factories.
Plus, other than the puke coming out of your mouth, I'm still waiting for something to state your case.
tick tick tick
Easy to read map/history for you (not that you give a shit or care). http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
Nelson Mandela and his ties to the communist party:"
Again. In what way does this negate his knowledge of apartheid?
*snicker* you learned something now. Good job.
It funny, though. By your definition of "apartheid", there's apartheid in every country on this planet to one degree or another. Hell, even the beloved country of France would have apartheid according to you. Self segregation does not equal apartheid, and trying to single out the country of Israel for your whatever point it is you are trying to state just proves the hypocrasy of it all.
Bullshit. People were living there. This is something the israelis tell themselves to sleep better. It somehow justifies the taking of land from other people.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you honestly believe that the entire west bank and gaza strip was empty until Israel moved in? There was nothing but a forrest that did not belong to anybody? What the fuck kind of an insane argument is that?
Reality is that THEY WEREN'T THERE. They are either refugees from other countries or were part of the 1890-1920 settlements that were under the control of the British/Turks.
The "Palestinians" have been offered a soveriegn state since Israel itself was reborn, but the Palestinians have time and time refused only to want to blow themselves up. The Arabs attacked (http://www.historyguy.com/arab_israeli_wars.html) note who attacked who - got their asses waxed, and now Israel controls more land than when they were reformed. The millions of people living there weren't there before Israel was formed. They are just immigrants from other nations. But don't take my word for it so here's another educational link for you:
For example, Aarafat(Osama 1.0) is Egyptian, but that hasn't stopped him from claiming to be a "Palestinian":
And the majority of the Palestinians are actually from other countries because of basically illegal immigration:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
Oh, and here's some pictures of this vast Palestinian "state" you like to fantasize about, the Isaelis actually redeveloped the fast majority of the desolate land:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html
really? I want to hear you say one thing that the israelis are doing wrong. Go ahead say that it's despicable to drop bombs on crowded cities. Say that it's morally reprehensible to have an official state policy of torture. Say that it's wrong to round up thousands of people and haul them off to jail with no charges or attorneys. Go ahead say it. I dare you.
Of course it's wrong. Doesn't change the fact that they hate they Israelis and want to destroy them primarily for religious reasons. Prove otherwise. I have yet to see one link proving anything remotely about your point.
That's not me saying that, it's the UN, the United States and the rest of the world. The west bank and the gaza strip are occupied terratories. Israel is occupying land that belonged to other people. They are building settlements on other peoples property. Both the UN and the US have asked repeatedly for israel to stop doing that but they don't.
The UN doesn't say that. They support a separate nation called "Palestine" (which again has never existed). The jewish people have offered them up to 99+% of the what the UN has proposed but Palestinians have flat told everyone to fuck off. The Palestinians don't want peace. This group of immigrant refugees and nomads don't want the nation that never existed and proposed to them. The sad thing is that it's been going on so long now, they believe there was Palestine before, and that Palestine included Israel, when in reality "Palistine/Falastine" is what the damn REGION was renamed to after the Israelis/Judeans were carted off to slavery/etc. But since that's in the Bible, that must be mythology right?
Laugh all you want. I guess for you it's stupid is as stupid does. You really need to read more.
Nelson Mandela and his ties to the communist party: http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/goodcom.ht ml http://www.sacp.org.za/docs/history/nm900729.h tml http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/speeches/releas e.htm l
I see it clearly now. The morality of it all is perfect. You can do whatever you want to people as long as they did not officially exist as a nation.
No, you said that. Not me. I don't agree with that. That by definition would give creedance to extermination of the Jews during WWII, and that is not the case here.
that makes it perfectly OK to kill them and take away land that has belonged to them for generations.
You know, if you would have read the article you would have learned that the place was practically empty. VIRTUALLY EMPTY. GOT IT Forest? They weren't there for "generations". They weren't planted there then wiped clean. They were re-settling with the Jews prior to WWII after the British came in and took over.
So now, please educate me, oh great one, and no more blather.
I am not saying that everything the Israelis are doing is right. But you can't say that the Palestinians have right to the land. It simply isn't true. If you honestly believe that, then give me some links that give some credance to your point, or this case is closed and this debate over.
Wow. I guess that proves your point once and for all. Do you know who called the palestenian stiuation apartheid? It was Nelson Mandella. I think I'll take his word over yours. I think he probably knows a thing or two about apartheid.
You Nelson Mandela, the one associated with his local communist party? OK.
"Apples and Oranges. You can't compare history of the U.S. to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict."
Really? Why not?
Because they are not the same issue. State your case. You state that they are. Prove it.
"There are over 1.5 million muslims living IN Israel, working in Israel."
Yes there are. Those arabs living in israel don't have the same rights are the jews living in israel. For example there are numerous "jewish only" neighborhoods where arabs are not allowed to live.
Of course that's irrelevent to this discussion. There are 3.5 million palestenians living under israeli occupation who have no rights at all. They are living under apartheid.
Here is a history lesson for you. Read up and get back with me. You talk of "Palestinians" like they were a nation prior to the Israeli state being formed. This is a more accurate account than your blither blather.
A nation which calls itself a democracy has chosen to put 3.5 million people into apartheid. No they haven't.
Like any other people who have their freedom taken away the palestenians are fighting back any way they can including blowing themselves up. I understand that feeling because if my country was being occupied I would do everything in my power to kick them out too. If you read history we had similar events in our history too. You might remember guerilla types of tactics the Americans took against the British. You might remember phrases like "give me liberty or give me death" and "don't tread on me".
Apples and Oranges. You can't compare history of the U.S. to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It might be romantic for you to do so, but it simply isn't true.
Since you feel that jews can do no wrong you refuse to accept this very simple political reality and blame it all on religious hatred even though the jews the and muslims lived together for thousands of years in peace. Jew and Muslims historically have seen themselves as being allies because neither one believes in the divinity of christ and both of them acknowledge various parts of the old testament.
If the Jews were so nicey nice like you want to fanatasize, and if that were the case, then why are Muslims forcing Jews and Christians in Muslims states to Islam (and don't tell me that's not the case). In fact, that is the history of Islam, forced religious conversions - I.e. like the Sudan, like Egypt, remember Afghanistan?
And yes, Christianity is guilty of it too. I'm just pointing out that everybody's shit stinks, which you seem to think that isn't the case.
And if you think the Palestinians are just a bunch of innocent "rebels" having aparteid forced on them, then you can go on living in your fantasy world, but that's simply not true. There are over 1.5 million muslims living IN Israel, working in Israel.
The muslims will not stop until Israel is once again destroyed as a nation. That was their goal after WWII, that is their goal now. Anything less is bull.
"No, the UN did because Europe didn't want to deal with the Millions of Jews from the internment/death camps."
Yea right. The palestenians should ask the UN to free them. LOL. Who builds settlements the UN or the israelis? Who runs the checkpoints the UN or the israelis?
My answer was to the fact of how Israel was reborn. You stated they just simply came in and squatted which isn't true. Quit being so emotional. It's not all one sided like you believe.
"No they don't. Now you're getting emotional with your blather. Why do you hate Jews?"
Any settler can walk up to any palestenian, pull out a gun and shoot them dead without any punishment.
Prove it.
"The Muslims forced this on themselves. "
Ah yes let's blame the victims. I am sure you had nothing to with it.
Who are the victims here? The Israelis? Palestinians? How about both.
'Them being terrorists? Yes. Them just being dead civilians, then no."
I was just counting the civillians. Israel kills them by the thousands every year. Of course it wounds and leaves homeless tens of thousands more.
Sorry the facts are so harsh.
You keep stating your blather as facts, but in reality, it is just that - emotional blather. The bottom line is that you have a group of people, that for religious reasons, hate the Jewish people. They try to blow them up. The Jewish people respond. Process repeats itself. Now if you want to believe what Mrs Smith taught you in High School, then go ahead. But it's a big world out there, and you need to educate yourself, and not act as another lemming. That's reality. You can try to Michael Moore this issue to death, but you can't change reality.
Don't be a lemming. Think for yourself. Think freely.
Slashdot Mirror
Shouldn't that be pinning the tail on the elephant?
Anyone who believes this is frankly a kook. I LIVE right next to Richard's Gabauer airport in Missouri. Internment camp my ass. It's an airforce base that's been closed down and converted to a huge Distribution Center for trucking.
I see.
I noticed you got moderated flamebait for repsonding to a legitimate question? They need to fix this whole moderation problem they have so that it's not so much a popularity contest. There are so many posts modded down that are really good posts, and frankly are more intelligent than some of the ones that get modded up. Here is what I have noticed:
1) Liberal posts get modded up faster
2) The "middle of the road" can't figure out which side is right, but I will sound intelligent anyway posts also get modded up.
3) The cliche posts.
Critical thinking is lacking these days, which is really sad.
This may not be agreeable, but I don't think it's "flamebait".
That it survived the drop test?
No, he was cool under pressure. Kerry himself said he sat at his desk for 30 minutes not know what to do.
No, the 527's can. The campaigns themselves cannot. And specifically, if they (the campaigns can't, then the 527's shouldn't be able to either).
Ahem.
That's right.
Let's See, in this case? The US Supreme Court.
Ahem.
Yes, that's right.
Without getting too emotional... :)
It's hard to forgive someone for basically saying that we are ALL a bunch of Genghis Kahn babykilleres when that simply wasn't the case. He was saying while we still had POWS over there. They Viet Cong then played his speech to those same American in the POW camps. Several of the swifties were in those camps and specifically remember being tortured while having to listen to Kerry rant on with that specific speech. i.e. The Viet Cong used Kerry's speech as propoganda and as a tool for mentally torturing our troops that were still POWs.
Now this same person wants to be president.
Kerry's own words:
"Several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia , not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. They re-lived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do. They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals , cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side... We are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia."
And he said this while hiw fellow soldiers were in the Hanoi Hilton getting the shit kicked out of them and having his recording played to them over and over.
Oh, and nevermind the basic fact that KERRY WAS THE ONE FULL OF SHIT.
You never did answer the previous question. What's going to happen in Cuba when Castro dies?
Try this:
& q= %22germans+protest%22+%2B%22american+military+base s%22
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
If there was a wall and no arabs were allowed to go into israel how would they destroy israel? How can the hapless palestenians authority hope to ever defeat one of the most powerful armies on the planet?
Because they (the Palestinians) would still complain that the Israelis are occupying their land. It's an infinite loop. It never ends. They want nothing less (mainly for religous reasons) than the destruction of Israel.
But there is moral justification. People who are living occupation have the right to fight to try and gain their freedom. That's the difference here
1) The occupation is justified, suicide bombings aren't. If they pull out, Israel is toast, and they know it.
2) You refuse to give any creedance to Israel defending itself while at the same time trying to justify the Palestinian's right to kill little babies. Israel wouldn't be occupying the land if the Arabs would have left Israel alone in the first place. But pride's a bitch, and the Arabs have a lot of it, so we are where are because of it.
Just build the wall where the UN says the border of Israel is. Keep out all arabs and voila no more terrorists attacks. Why is that so hard to understand? Just wall yourself in and keep out the arabs. That is what they are doing anyway just do it according to international law.
Bzzzt. Wrong. The Palestinian authority have already called for the complete destruction of Israel. How would building a wall according to "Internation Standards" do anygood to the Palestinians who don't give a shit anyways?
What the fuck? Doesn't israel have f-15s, cruise missiles, helicopters up the wazoo? If it does not have enough planes the US would be happy to lend them a few hundred.
Nice. Change the subject. The old "hat trick." "Look over here, not over there". You implied earlier Israel could retaliate with nukes, but when I state that it's not stratgic, you try "Plan B" and use a bunch of other examples.
There is no way in hell any arab country can take on israel. Ever. Ariel Sharon can kill every single arab on the face of the planet tommorow if he wants. There is nothing anybody can do to stop him. Nothing.
Yep you're right. You prove my point right there. By your own logic of Palestinian oppresion, by what those nasty Jews commit on a daily basis, the Palestinians should already be dead by now.
Say it with me. Israel is an immoral country conducting an immoral, illegal and unnecessary occupation of 3+ million human beings. The only historically recent precedent for such despicable behavior by a country is South Africa and you saw how long that lasted. Eventually this occupation will corrupt the jewish soul. Eventually your lame ass rationalizations will eat you from the inside out. It's wrong to torture people, it's wrong to deny them basic human rights, it's wrong to kill them. it's just wrong and before you say it two wrong don't make a right.
You refuse to look at reality. You want to believe this fantasy of big bad Israel of yours, and refuse to believe otherwise. The only thing that is happening with the Palestinian homicide bombings is that they are ensuring future generations of occupation. They Israelis would be foolish to pull out, as anyone would.
And BTW please stop giving me bogus links from jewish organizations. I would not trust any numbers from them as farther then I could throw an elephant. As this converstaion shows jews are incabable of perceiving the evil deeds committed by Israel. To them any action is justified and they can find plenty of bogus reasons like "they never had a country in the first place" and "all of the arab countires have less money then spain" or some shit.
You have yet to prove a single point. Yu have yet to admit what the Palestinians are doing is wrong.
Say it with me:
"There is no moral justification for the Palestinians to conduct terrorism".
You have yet to prove anything except that you refuse to open your mind and become a true liberal.
They need to pull out period. Those people deserve freedom just as much as ony other people on the planet. If they don't want terrorists they can seal their borders. They can build a damned wall just like they are doing now but on their official borders. They can prevent palestenians from entering their country. The occupation of palestine is illegal and immoral.
. as p
:(
The Palestinians need to stop the terrorist attacks period. But I doubt that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
And regrading the wall, according to the Palestinians, the wall would start at the Mediterranean sea, with Israel not even existing as a country. They have turned down peace since the British split up "Palestine/Jordan". The Jews took their nation when they had the chance whereas the Palestinians (arabs) have just been bitching and moaning that Israel exists in the first place. In simple terms, it pissed the arabs off, they attacked Israel, Israel whooped their ass, and we are where we are today because of it. And now Israel has nukes to prevent future attacks, and everyone know they will use them the next time an arab country goes in.
All this bullshit about "isreal needs to defend itself" has got to go. Israel is the third largest nuclear power in the world. It has the best armed forces int he middle east. It is immune from international law. It can completely anhilate any country it wants and regularly bombs other countries like syria and lebanon with no worries about retaliation.
What are they supposed to do? Nuke themselves? Nuclear weapons aren't very strategic for situations like terrorism. You need the right tool for the job. The "Palestinians" don't want peace, only the destruction of Israel.
Since the US would completely turn any country that dared to attack israel into parking lot overnight it is for all practical purposes the most powerful country on the planet.
I doubt that. The U.S. (sadly) is overextended now and I think would just watch, just as it would watch if Taiwan were "resorbed" into China. The arab nations have already attacked several times before. The only difference/reason they haven't attacked again is for fear that Israel would herself turn them into glass.
Israel needs to pull out. It's the only moraly and legally acceptable solution. It needs to stop killing thousands of civillians a year.
Sigh - stop it with the thousands of civilians getting killed each year. It's just not happening. It may sound romantic for you, but it's just not. I gave you a link last time that showed you the total number of Palestinians killed in total, and it's around 2,000 over a many year period. Here's a simpler link:
http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resources/mrates
It needs to stop building settlements, it needs to stop taking other peoples property, it needs to stop torturing people, it needs to join the rest of the civilized world.
What do you do when your enemy will never make peace, never stop until you are destroyed? That is the situation the Israelis are in now. The Palestinians don't want peace. They have been given olive branch after olive branch only to walk away every time.
There is no need to torture the palestenians, there in no need for apartheid. Israel can and should act like any other civilized country. Either pull out or assimilate. Either make these people your citizens or get out.
I agree with you here. But both the Israelis and Palestinians are too stubborn to give even an inch though, and I doubt it will happen in our lifetime.
Context means everything. Your sense of context is warped. You think that it's OK to kill palestenians because they didn't officially have a country I don't.
t mlh tmls e.htm l
. jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/ osloterr.htmle nts/CasualtiesO fWar/
No I don't. Thus continuing your warped version of context.
Israelis. They occupy the west bank and the gaza strip. This occupation is illegal according to the UN and the international laws.
Yes, true. But everytime they pull out, the terrorist attacks get worse. You fail to give any creedance to the threat that Isreal faces.
Yes I do. They think that by making the palestenians suffer they can get them to stop resisting the occupation. They want to subjugate the palestenians by breaking them. They believe that the best way to break them is by torturing them in every way possible including killing their children.
Now who's warped? The Palestinian terrorists have vowed to kill civilians, while the Israelis have tried to avoid them and to defend themselves by going after the terrorists. Both sides have stated this, yet you want to believe the opposite.
* I believe both sides aren't perfect, but that Israel does have a right to defend itself.
* I believe that it has more meaning that some simple minded occupation, i.e. a religious backdrop where fanatical Islamists will not stop until they blow themselves up or Israelis leave. (I believe that there are innocent victims on both sides).
* I have tried to give you facts. You haven't given any facts, only opinions, backed up with more opinions.
* You want to oversimplify it then try to use apartheid as a justification for Palesntinian terrorism, which you seem to think is OK to blow up little Israeli school children.
* You believe only the Israelis are wrong, and the fanatical Islam has nothing to do with the
current situation.
* You believe that "Any settler can walk up to any palestenian, pull out a gun and shoot them dead without any punishment", then can't back it up. I refute that arguement.
* "Ah yes let's blame the victims. I am sure you had nothing to with it." - what the hell does this mean? Who is "you" by the way? You sound like a palestinian terrorist. Are you Muslim? Are you proving my point now that it is religious in nature?
* "I was just counting the civillians. Israel kills them by the thousands every year. Of course it wounds and leaves homeless tens of thousands more". Bullshit. The total numbers are below.
* "LOL. OK so Nelson Mandela is a communist *snicker*. Ok so I guess that means he knows nothing about apartheid right?" - you thought I was joking, only to find out I was actually right:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/goodcom.h
http://www.sacp.org.za/docs/history/nm900729.
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/speeches/relea
* on and on and on.
The only thing you have proven, is that you are uneducated, ill-informed, and biased against the Israelis. You have given no facts to support any of your claims. You need to read history, then look at the current situation for what it is:
History example:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/
Reality today:
http://www.terrorvictims.com/
http://www
http://info.jpost.com/C002/Supplem
Casualties of War:
http://middleeastinfo.org/article2210.html
You keep dancing around the issue, making up excuses and misdirecting all the while ignoring the real issue.
Right now, this very minute there are over 3 million human beings living under israeli rule. Peple who are being killed, tortured, humiliated, living in abject poverty and despair.
You have made a lot of excuses for this dispicable rule of the isralies. Basically your arguments are scattered and don't make any sense. Does the fact that the palestenians didn't officially have a country mean that the israelis get to torture them? Does the fact that the GDP of all of islam is smaller then spains mean it's OK for israel to deny human rights to palestenians? Does the fact that people immigrated illegally mean Israel gets to drop bombs into crowded citites?
Not one thing you have said provides justification for apartheid. How many children did the Israeli army kill last year? What was the justification for it?
You apparently haven't answered any of my questions nor have you looked at any of the underlying factors for the "why" we are where we are today. Apparently context means nothing to you. I am arguing the point at a completely different levels.
I am trying to decide if you are either anti-semetic or are just plain ignorant. Either way you need to look at the bigger picture.
The issue is that we are in the situation we are in today for religious regions. You want to argue that the bible is a bunch of myths. You obviously don't believe that religion motivates people. You obviously would rather support a jihadist movement over Israeli self-defense, and then spin it and call it apartheid and make silly comparisons to South Africa. I can go on and on.
And since you like to keep changing to subject I will ask you a question:
Who are the aggressors? Israelis or Arabs (aka "Palenstinians")
Why? When did it start? Links to prove? I really do want to know why you believe the Israeli/Palestinian situation in the context you do.
My answer: It is the Arabs. They (for relogious reasons) want nothing more than to destroy Israel. Is Israel not allowed to defend itself? Do you honestly think that Israel deliberately targets innocent women and children? It must take a lot of guts to deliberately blow up buses in the name of Alah eh? I believe Israel is doing nothing more than defending itself. The nature of Islam does now allow one to be passive against it. You will simply be consumed if you stand back and watch.
Your answer is to just change the subject or to simply refute it without any sort of proof. You are very persistent though. I will give you that.
Oh I suppose those 500 pound bombs were delivering cinnamon buns then huh? And those mass graves? do they contain barbie dolls?
Do you mean the ones Saddam dug?
Listen I am sorry that the reality of the situation is so harsh and not to your liking but you can't deny that american soldiers have killed tens of thousands of innocent civillians. Why? To put down some insurgency in fallujiah or najaf. What the fuck kind of reason is that? Why is that your job?
It sucks that civilians get killed, and frankly those same civilians just want the war to end. But the government there was supporting individuals that would like to "end" America. No one likes war.
Are you seriously claiming the US military never kills civillians?
Oh and keep thinking that you are "protecting people's freedom" I am sure it helps you sleep better. Too bad the only people who deserve freedom also happen to have something you want. The people in Sudan, Liberia, china, north korea, palestine, chechnia etc can continue to starve, be massacred, subjugated and die off in disgusting numbers because you can't be bothered to lift a finger to help them. It's much more important to deliver najaf back to alawi, we just can't let some cleric control a city damnit. Those people deserve to be ruled by somebody we handpicked not some damned cleric!
lol. You don't get it. Welcome to anti-Utopia, where reality is and fantasy isn't. You do nothing but bash the U.S, so move the fuck out and let us be.
They don't intentionally gas their enemies for one.
Abugraihb is a joke. Hell, College dorms give out more toture than they got.
So let me get this straight. Your arguments are that.
1) The entire west bank and gaza stip was empty before israel took over the land. There was nobody living there.
They didn't "take it over". Britain had control before they decided to divide it into Palestine/Jordan. And if you'd know your history, Palestine was the first name given to the whole region, but I digress. You can try in vain all you want on that one, but just believing something doesn't make it true.
2) If you see some empty land in which nobody is living you can take it, build housing on it and declare it to be a part of your country.
Have can you take an indefensible stand to the death, have no proof, only lies, then try to just bash the other position with nothing but lies? Care you back up your statements? No, didn't think so.
3) because the palestenians did not officially have a nation before it's OK to torture them, to kill them, to humiliate them and to deny them any human rights whatsoever.
Nope, didn't say that. And that's not happening. Both sides are the ones losing, but you refuse to see the truth for what it is.
4) If people illegally immigrate to a place then it's OK to kill them.
Actually, if you'd have read the links I sent you, the only people illegally immigrating were the Arabs into Palestine around the turn of the century. The Jews were pretty much shut out during WWII.
Nice religion that judaism.
I'd pick Judaism over Islam any day. Islam espouses hate, bigotry and most of all stupidity by keeping its citizens nothing more than a bunch of illiterats - no sciense, no math, no literature. The combined GDP of all of the Muslim countries in the world is less than that of Spain. The only thing they are good at are hate factories.
Plus, other than the puke coming out of your mouth, I'm still waiting for something to state your case.
tick
tick
tick
Easy to read map/history for you (not that you give a shit or care).
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
me - 10.
you - zero.
Nelson Mandela and his ties to the communist party:"
) note who attacked who - got their asses waxed, and now Israel controls more land than when they were reformed. The millions of people living there weren't there before Israel was formed. They are just immigrants from other nations. But don't take my word for it so here's another educational link for you:
h tm
Again. In what way does this negate his knowledge of apartheid?
*snicker* you learned something now. Good job.
It funny, though. By your definition of "apartheid", there's apartheid in every country on this planet to one degree or another. Hell, even the beloved country of France would have apartheid according to you. Self segregation does not equal apartheid, and trying to single out the country of Israel for your whatever point it is you are trying to state just proves the hypocrasy of it all.
Bullshit. People were living there. This is something the israelis tell themselves to sleep better. It somehow justifies the taking of land from other people.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you honestly believe that the entire west bank and gaza strip was empty until Israel moved in? There was nothing but a forrest that did not belong to anybody? What the fuck kind of an insane argument is that?
Reality is that THEY WEREN'T THERE. They are either refugees from other countries or were part of the 1890-1920 settlements that were under the control of the British/Turks.
The "Palestinians" have been offered a soveriegn state since Israel itself was reborn, but the Palestinians have time and time refused only to want to blow themselves up. The Arabs attacked (http://www.historyguy.com/arab_israeli_wars.html
For example, Aarafat(Osama 1.0) is Egyptian, but that hasn't stopped him from claiming to be a "Palestinian":
http://www.geocities.com/m_lock_2000/arafatbio.
And the majority of the Palestinians are actually from other countries because of basically illegal immigration:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
Oh, and here's some pictures of this vast Palestinian "state" you like to fantasize about, the Isaelis actually redeveloped the fast majority of the desolate land:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html
really? I want to hear you say one thing that the israelis are doing wrong. Go ahead say that it's despicable to drop bombs on crowded cities.
Say that it's morally reprehensible to have an official state policy of torture. Say that it's wrong to round up thousands of people and haul them off to jail with no charges or attorneys. Go ahead say it. I dare you.
Of course it's wrong. Doesn't change the fact that they hate they Israelis and want to destroy them primarily for religious reasons. Prove otherwise. I have yet to see one link proving anything remotely about your point.
That's not me saying that, it's the UN, the United States and the rest of the world. The west bank and the gaza strip are occupied terratories. Israel is occupying land that belonged to other people. They are building settlements on other peoples property. Both the UN and the US have asked repeatedly for israel to stop doing that but they don't.
The UN doesn't say that. They support a separate nation called "Palestine" (which again has never existed). The jewish people have offered them up to 99+% of the what the UN has proposed but Palestinians have flat told everyone to fuck off. The Palestinians don't want peace. This group of immigrant refugees and nomads don't want the nation that never existed and proposed to them. The sad thing is that it's been going on so long now, they believe there was Palestine before, and that Palestine included Israel, when in reality "Palistine/Falastine" is what the damn REGION was renamed to after the Israelis/Judeans were carted off to slavery/etc. But since that's in the Bible, that must be mythology right?
Laugh all you want. I guess for you it's stupid is as stupid does. You really need to read more.
t mlh tmls e.htm l
Nelson Mandela and his ties to the communist party:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/goodcom.h
http://www.sacp.org.za/docs/history/nm900729.
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/speeches/relea
I see it clearly now. The morality of it all is perfect. You can do whatever you want to people as long as they did not officially exist as a nation.
No, you said that. Not me. I don't agree with that. That by definition would give creedance to extermination of the Jews during WWII, and that is not the case here.
that makes it perfectly OK to kill them and take away land that has belonged to them for generations.
You know, if you would have read the article you would have learned that the place was practically empty. VIRTUALLY EMPTY. GOT IT Forest? They weren't there for "generations". They weren't planted there then wiped clean. They were re-settling with the Jews prior to WWII after the British came in and took over.
So now, please educate me, oh great one, and no more blather.
I am not saying that everything the Israelis are doing is right. But you can't say that the Palestinians have right to the land. It simply isn't true. If you honestly believe that, then give me some links that give some credance to your point, or this case is closed and this debate over.
Wow. I guess that proves your point once and for all. Do you know who called the palestenian stiuation apartheid? It was Nelson Mandella. I think I'll take his word over yours. I think he probably knows a thing or two about apartheid.
You Nelson Mandela, the one associated with his local communist party? OK.
"Apples and Oranges. You can't compare history of the U.S. to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict."
Really? Why not?
Because they are not the same issue. State your case. You state that they are. Prove it.
"There are over 1.5 million muslims living IN Israel, working in Israel."
Yes there are. Those arabs living in israel don't have the same rights are the jews living in israel. For example there are numerous "jewish only" neighborhoods where arabs are not allowed to live.
Of course that's irrelevent to this discussion. There are 3.5 million palestenians living under israeli occupation who have no rights at all. They are living under apartheid.
Here is a history lesson for you. Read up and get back with me. You talk of "Palestinians" like they were a nation prior to the Israeli state being formed. This is a more accurate account than your blither blather.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/myths.html
You are wrong. What you have here is very simple.
A nation which calls itself a democracy has chosen to put 3.5 million people into apartheid.
No they haven't.
Like any other people who have their freedom taken away the palestenians are fighting back any way they can including blowing themselves up. I understand that feeling because if my country was being occupied I would do everything in my power to kick them out too. If you read history we had similar events in our history too. You might remember guerilla types of tactics the Americans took against the British. You might remember phrases like "give me liberty or give me death" and "don't tread on me".
Apples and Oranges. You can't compare history of the U.S. to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It might be romantic for you to do so, but it simply isn't true.
Since you feel that jews can do no wrong you refuse to accept this very simple political reality and blame it all on religious hatred even though the jews the and muslims lived together for thousands of years in peace. Jew and Muslims historically have seen themselves as being allies because neither one believes in the divinity of christ and both of them acknowledge various parts of the old testament.
If the Jews were so nicey nice like you want to fanatasize, and if that were the case, then why are Muslims forcing Jews and Christians in Muslims states to Islam (and don't tell me that's not the case). In fact, that is the history of Islam, forced religious conversions -
I.e. like the Sudan, like Egypt, remember Afghanistan?
And yes, Christianity is guilty of it too. I'm just pointing out that everybody's shit stinks, which you seem to think that isn't the case.
And if you think the Palestinians are just a bunch of innocent "rebels" having aparteid forced on them, then you can go on living in your fantasy world, but that's simply not true. There are over 1.5 million muslims living IN Israel, working in Israel.
The muslims will not stop until Israel is once again destroyed as a nation. That was their goal after WWII, that is their goal now. Anything less is bull.
"No, the UN did because Europe didn't want to deal with the Millions of Jews from the internment/death camps."
Yea right. The palestenians should ask the UN to free them. LOL. Who builds settlements the UN or the israelis? Who runs the checkpoints the UN or the israelis?
My answer was to the fact of how Israel was reborn. You stated they just simply came in and squatted which isn't true. Quit being so emotional. It's not all one sided like you believe.
"No they don't. Now you're getting emotional with your blather. Why do you hate Jews?"
Any settler can walk up to any palestenian, pull out a gun and shoot them dead without any punishment.
Prove it.
"The Muslims forced this on themselves. "
Ah yes let's blame the victims. I am sure you had nothing to with it.
Who are the victims here? The Israelis? Palestinians? How about both.
'Them being terrorists? Yes. Them just being dead civilians, then no."
I was just counting the civillians. Israel kills them by the thousands every year. Of course it wounds and leaves homeless tens of thousands more.
Sorry the facts are so harsh.
You keep stating your blather as facts, but in reality, it is just that - emotional blather. The bottom line is that you have a group of people, that for religious reasons, hate the Jewish people. They try to blow them up. The Jewish people respond. Process repeats itself. Now if you want to believe what Mrs Smith taught you in High School, then go ahead. But it's a big world out there, and you need to educate yourself, and not act as another lemming. That's reality. You can try to Michael Moore this issue to death, but you can't change reality.
Don't be a lemming. Think for yourself. Think freely.