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Secret Service Seeks Indymedia Logs
sunbird writes "The Justice Department has issued a subpoena seeking IP logs from Calyx, the ISP for nyc.indymedia.org, after individuals posted [1 | 2 | 3] the names, addresses, and phone numbers of some of the RNC delegates. The subpoena was issued as part of an ongoing investigation of voter intimidation. As reported earlier in this Slashdot article, the Justice Department tried this before. Calyx, represented by the ACLU, responded, claiming that '[t]he only intimidation taking place here is the Secret Service intimidating people who speak out against the government.' [Full text of the letter available here] Read more: Indymedia.org | NYT"
Is whether the people posting the information are willing to post the same information about themselves.
individuals posted [1 | 2 | 3] the names, addresses, and phone numbers of some of the RNC delegates.
What I don't understand is the purpose of this release. People protesting and hacking in the name of the democratic party is only going to piss off the undecided people.
Being a shmuck isn't any less evil even if you think you are doing it for the right reasons.
If I were a moderate and had to choose between the party of McCain and the party of hackers and hippies... I know who I would pick.
Obligate disclosure:
Physician who is a democrat... so my morals are screwie already. (grin)
Seems to me like an obvious abuse of power. I mean, sure, it's an obvious privacy invasion to the delegates there, but they're public officials! Public officals can't and shouldn't expect alot of privacy simply because the people the represent need to be able to contact them.
Now on the other hand, things like this are probably the reason as to why many message boards (Slashdot included) only store logs for a day or two. You can suponea what doesn't exist anymore!
Having said that I don't understand this on two fronts
1. What possible benefit could the list could be to somebody? I mean it's not like these are potential swing votes. To me it would only give the Republicans political fodder for demonizing us democrats.
2. Why is simply posting it illegal? From the article
*warning* shameless plug to get myself (and yourself) a free ipod follows:
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
wasn't it ? isn't this a little over the line...?
you think it's easy, but you're wrong...
NYC protest radio http://radio.socialtechnology.net/listen.html
Don't forget, don't post here, or you'll be hassled too...
...Doh!
Steve Jackson Games did it.
Secret service logs YOU
^^
What i think is humorous is that rncdelegates.com goes to lengths to hide the contact information only providing a hush mail account, on a seperate linked site no less, when they make this claim as justification for providing home contact information for delegates: "Where is the privacy of citizens when the USA PATRIOT Act is the law of the land? Where is privacy when "Big Brother" in the form of government and corporations worms his way ever further into our lives?" Where's their dncdelegates.com site? I'm all for free political speech and contacting representatives, but isn't this a bit hypocritical and biased?
Yeah, watch the liberals complain about this, then not complain when people post the information for abortionists.
For exactly this reason.
You can listen to streams of the RNC protest news Here (Portland IMC) and Here (A-Noise)
As I write, hundreds of people from the war resistors league march are being arrested, without a dispersal order or any charges.
How about not logging every single thing to begin with. My proxy logs go to /dev/null.
Also, isn't this kinda similar to big brother asking the libraries about the list of books checked out by somebody? The simplest solution was the libraries stopping to keep track of who checked the book out after it was returned.
Free XBox, PS2
It's one thing to publish a known politician's info. They are opening their lives to the public (by definition, they serve the public). But, it's not necessarily right for a delegate's (often a common civilian) husbands/wives/kids to have to suffer harrassment simply as a result of their parent's or spouces political affiliations.
i would, but i can't get this stupid ass off my tin-foil hat.
... that's a donkey? ass, donkey same thing.
what?
[/bad humor]
don't blame me, i voted for the other looser.
-Joe 2-Keg
What if it were a Republican-oriented website with information for harrassing Democratic delegates? It'd be splashed all over the NYT before the Secret Service even caught wind of it, and the American Criminal Lawyers' Union wouldn't even touch the case!
Idiots, don't do something illegal then run a duck when they agents come calling.
If Kerry was the answer, it must have been a stupid question.
The UN - The largest "political" cause of death.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
i rather like it.
it's not stressful once you get the hang of it.
need to eat? just ask your helpful big brother what to eat.
need to work? hell yes you do.
need to think? big brother can fix that too!
just don't wake the sheep, they didn't get the memo yet.
I've been wondering for a long time if it's illegal to publish publicly accessible data, in this case, people's phone numbers and addresses.
If on the same publication, there's no further "instruction" (like spam them, kill them etc), is it legal?
I thought about this not because of the politicians, but those paparazzis - imagine if every one of them's name, address, children's schools, schooling time, school address are published.
Uselessful technology (Air-Charged
Since I just visited the site (rncdelegates.com), I suppose I can expect a visit from the NSA / Secret Service / CIA / FBI any sec........
You can't even peacefully wear a "No Bush" T-Shirt to a political rally now adays without being arrested for trespassing.
Your rights to free speech, and your expectations of privacy are gone now.
Politicians as part of our so called "open" government should have no expectations of privacy. Just who is supposedly representing us.
john young, doing what he does best:
http://cryptome.org
this line is just filler
as is this one.
This guy hacked the ProtestWarrior website and stole the info. It wasn't just delagets it was people registered at PW. Private emails, phone numbers, names addresses. Furthermore posted that information to the world on IndyMedia with the full aproval of it's editing staff. Then suggested that people call and harrass everyone on the list.
I don't give a @#$% what your political offiliation is that is wrong. It is violation of PW servers with intent to do harm. It is violation of their covenant of privacey with their members. It is harasment of people because of their beliefs.
It's one thing to protest, it's another to make personal attacks.
We have secret ballot in America for a reason!
I'll see you all at the polls Nov 2nd!
I would rather be ashes than dust!
A few years back, a *friend* got me a membership in the RNC for my birthday.
Does this mean that if I download this list I can sue myself for harrassment?
If you had bothered to read the ACLU page linked, you would have seen that the information that was posted is publicly available.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
I think the message is pretty clear here. "Shut them down" with a list of all that personal information..... Indymedia might have a good agenda in there somewhere, but it will be overshadowed by their efforts to silence those who disagree with them.
Not solely by virtue of being delegates, anyway. The only definitive statement you can make is that these people were selected by (generally) the members of a political party to participate in ITS process for choosing a presidential election nominee, and that can be as private a process as the party wants it to be. The public gets its say in the general election (yes, I know there are exceptions, notably Louisiana and Virginia).
Some of them probably are public officials (it's reasonably likely that if your Senator or Congressman is a Republican, s/he is there; some delegates also may be local office holders), but many others are like this girl, private, politically interested, citizens who do not hold elected office.
The posting of their personal info is an invasion of privacy, but that's not why the DoJ is involved. They're involved because of the threats to the safety of these individuals just a few clicks away on the site in question.
Whatever your stance on publishing these kinds of lists, Indymedia is one of the few remaining grassroots information outlets left on the internet, free from corporate money, sleaziness and lies. It would be a shame to have them shut down, and would really represent the end of the Internet as we knew it.
:-(
Sure, there are Indymedia branches in many countries (mostly European) but if we get our own version of the Patriot act the way we're getting software patents and DMCA and other crappy corporate America anti-freedom laws, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with only CNN and other big-money propaganda machines.
It's nice to see that America's branch of the "Looney Left" hasn't lost their touch for shooting themselves in the foot with a howitzer.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
1) What is the Justice Department doing about the harrassment of Black Voting Leagues in Florida? If the answer (which I suspect it is) is "nothing" than this a clear case of government being used in a partisan and heavy-handed manner. It's also racist and classist. 2) I don't know about your state, but the Georgia GOP's website already lists already lists their delegates as well as the alternates for all to see. Just plug the name into Switchboard and you can get their addresses. Conclusion? This is a disingenuous, partisan, racist, classist abuse of the Justice Department. Someone else want to argue that point?
to have to suffer harrassment
Where did you get harassment out of this? I didn't read anywhere that there were complaints of harassment made by any of the RNC families. I only read that the SS was harassing the people who feel that we should know the identities of the committee members who pick the token figurehead that we have the satisfying privelege of casting our wasted vote for.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Back in the old days Americans was free and liberated; nowadays it seems we Europeans are a little freer as in beer.
The government is controlled by the people for the people in the spirit of democracy.
USA is on the way to become more like a totalitarian state where the people are controlled by there government - the fusion of all intelligence department services would indeed speed this up.
I however do trust that the legal systems will protect the individual citizens from being gagged all the time.
In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep.
nt
An open question to anyone who thinks that posting the personally identifying information of GOP delegates on a (mostly) radical left-wing website isn't about intimidation, I ask you this:
What do you think it's about when the personally identifying information of physicians who terminate pregnancies is listed on anti-abortion websites?
Note that I'm not arguing against free speech here. Publish whatever directory you want, but it goes both ways.
Even Jesus hates listening to Creed.
to get through ALL the linked documents, in the most semantic sense of the phrase, posting this info about delegates can be considered intimidation. I'm not voting for Bush myself but in this has to swing both ways.
If a rule applies to Republicans, it has to apply to Democrats.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
Friends don't let friends vote Republican...
This was NOT a questionable thing to do. The information is already freely and easily available. Just go to rncdelegates.com, click on any state in the picture and see the list of information, including address, phone numbers, email and hotel information posted there. Apparently the "crime" that occured was copying the information from rncdelegates.com to indymedia.org.
Your phone book, as you pointed out, does not specifically list only one group of people. It basically lists all people.
This delegate list was published to make these delegates targets of attack, whether physical or non-physical. The purpose of this would be to attempt to pressure the delegates into changing their votes, and by proxy to pressure delegates not listed to also change their votes lest they become targets.
Whether it's illegal or not, it certainly stinks. It's a sad situation when people feel they must create pressure or threat like this in order to see their political party win. Of course to those of us who fall in the middle ("moderate") of the two parties, it pushes us AWAY from the freaks who do these things.
So on the far left we have the radical SUV torchers, the information warriors (posting delegates' information), the "hackers" who vow to disrupt RNC technical services, the "make no mention of God anywhere, at any time" athiests, and of course the "you make more than 50k, you're rich! give it to us!" people, etc. etc.
On the far right we have the "no abortion under any cirumstances" folks, the "Christian is the only religion" folks, and the "police state is safer" folks.
Call me a pragmatist, or call me short sighted, but the former group scares me more personally, and immediately. I don't want my vehicles burned, my personal info posted, my money taken away (although you're welcome to all my debt if you like).
Seems I'm rambling.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
to real protesting? Whatever happened to actually telling the people what's really going on in the shadows and giving the public a REAL reason to vote for or against a cause. Now, we're just terrorists in our own country.
I haven't seen a single political ad that discusses the truth or isn't hyperbole. It's too bad the people of America are too dumb to research politics themselves and not buy into this advertisement bull shit.
NSA logs YOU.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Well, as its not clear there's a crime committed, its not clear there are charges made, then it seems their fears are well justified.
Do you see the point?
If "agents" visit you when you do something that peacefully attacks the current government, doesn't it follow that you would be scared?
Think about it... you publish the name of the representatives that are electing a president, and the response is for the government to visit you? I can't believe you don't see the problem here.
when they publish it themselves?
the right does the same thing, but the president gives the orders so its ok.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I've seen the CSVs, and it's got an email column.
:-)
On a related note, I am selling a marketing list of 49,000 affluent American opt-in email addresses for the cost of (1) gmail invite.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
It's funny that people cry "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" when they are being investigated for involving themselves in this crap.
I will never understand why people think that because they are "speaking out against the establishment" they should be able to do whatever they want to speak out, and be beyond reproach.
"Hard work never killed anyone." -- Some Dead Guy
Even if you feel they are seriously misguided, if you want to influence them you do it with kindness and respect. Whether they are really being put at some risk by having their names, hotel rooms and phone numbers posted really depends on the random action (Or hopefully lack of action) by some crazy wingnut. Would you want your mother getting a threatening call at 3am? The secret Service has a legitimate concern for their wellfare.
As a protest action it was stupid and arguablly endangering. About as self-indulgent and counter-productive as breaking windows and setting fires at the WTO.
Certainly, it seems to me to be pointlessly cruel. The fact that the perpetrators hide behind anonymity rather than stand up and explain themselves betrays a coward's conscience.
As Gandhi, King and Mandella proved - effective change is possible... RTFM!
"Knowing everything doesn't help..."
What I don't understand is the purpose of this release.
Maybe someone could use that list to try and call these people and discuss alternative points of view?
Only the ACLU would try to pretend that posting a bunch of personal information is the same as making a political statement against the government. No wonder they're looked upon as extremist idiots.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
"free from corporate money, sleaziness and lies?" Get over yourself.
More accurate to say they're one of the most popular collective information outlets, and that their sites generally adhere to a left-wing, anti-corporate political slant. Sleaziness is in the eye of the beholder (read the clips attached to this page), and I really don't think you want to be vouching for the truthfulness of everything everyone at IndyMedia posts.
There exist a whole hell of a lot of grassroots "media outlets" that don't take advertising, they just haven't gotten the publicity of IMC. You could start your own in seconds for less than US$10 a month, just pick your favorite webhosting provider and go to work.
Here in Oregon Democrats tried to fill seats at Nader rallies so he couldn't get enough signatures to get on the ballot. Now that's dirty. Of course Republicans tried get him on the ballot with no intention of voting for him, it goes both ways I guess.
haha. looks like somebody got their ass handed to them
who cares about the phone numbers though, as if the justice dept has any buisness requesting logs of ip addys. (one of which could be any one of us) information has a right to be shared. rnc deligates, and their information, number, etc. should be available publically.
The majority of delegates are politicos or relatives of politicos. Given that they're participating in the selection of the guy who will run 1/3 of the government of 300 million people, I think it's OK for some basic info to be available.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
Read some of the coverage. Some things are more simple, like have people blocking hotel entrances, or event locations. Other things get more personal, like groups waiting at places like restraunts or theaters and trying to fight with attendees. Some have gotten worse. One police detective was put in the hospital.
I don't care what party you are with. That's just wrong. Protesting is an important right, but protesting doesnt' mean you can do things like that. Yes, stand and voice your concerns, but getting into fights, or attempting to get in the face of any and every attendee is just a annoying.
"Fear of serious injury cannot alone justify suppression of free speech and assembly. Men feared witches and burned women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears." - Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
Not trying to be funny, but there is some violence inherent in this system.
"Teachers leave us kids alone
The fiasco in Florida was sad, but Bush was elected by the rules that we have in place. I have a hard time believing that nearly 100% of the hanging chads were votes for Gore. I thought the fiasco afterwards where Gore's vote count kept rising but Bush's remained nearly steady reaked of corruption in the counting process. If that's really the case, it must mean Republicans are just smarter than Democrats, or at least able to understand simple instructions. If you are for anarchy, go ahead. Methinks you are off your rocker though.
Before you go flaming me as a racist, imperialist republican, know that I will be "throwing my vote away" on a third party. I have little love for George W. Bush, but given the choice I would choose Bush over Kerry for one reason alone, Kerry's lack of integrity. This man will say or do anything in his quest for political power and social acceptance. He claimed to have thrown away his medals in a protest march, turns out he still has them. He got two of his purple hearts under suspicious circumstances. He came back and said that he himself committed war crimes as well as witnessing them and doing nothing about them on a daily basis. He lied about being in Cambodia. He joined the military because he though it would help him attain his goal of getting into politics, when public opinion turned against the war he did as well to get public sympathy. After 30 minutes of mud-slinging against President Bush at the DNC, he told the audience with a straight face he hoped the election wouldn't get dirty.
The kicker was when I saw him on C-Span giving a speech at the University of San Diego. He kept spouting off all the great things he would do without explaining how he would possibly accomplish any of it. Finally he was harping on gas prices to cheers from the audience. He actually had a solution for that one. He would go to OPEC and the Arab leaders and get them to increase production to lower gas prices. "Wow", I though, "Is it really that easy?" Not two weeks later he was calling Bush "disgusting" for trying to do the exact same thing. He made it seem like a back-door plan with Bush getting favors from his family friends in Saudi Arabia just to help him in the election. What's Bush supposed to do, run the economy into the ground before the election? He should do his best to help America at all times. John Kerry is the one I think is disgusting.
No. The Republicans certainly had less than noble motivations, but trying to deny Nader supporters the right to vote for their candidate is potentially illegal.
Admins, here's a few tweaks you can make to your configs to protect the privacy of your users.
/var/log/httpd/access_log noip
./configure using --without-iplogging
Apache
======
In httpd.conf:
LogFormat "noip - - %t \"%r\" %>s %b \"%{Referer}i\" \"%{User-Agent}i\" %T %V" noip
CustomLog
This will keep the format of the logs the same as the default, but instead of
having an IP in the logs it will read "noip". The logs can still be processed by
programs such as webalizer.
Squid
=====
In squid.conf add:
client_netmask 0.0.0.0
pure-ftpd
=========
When compiling, run
I wish leftists like you could only get more publicity. You can't type or spell. You make idiotic statements that are obvious scare tactics. If people like you and the protesters in NY would only get a LITTLE bit more exposure John Kerry would only get 5% of the vote.
I see several posts here saying Indymedia did this, Indymedia posted the names. Indymedia did NOT post the names. Indymedia is like Slashdot, ANYONE can post. Blaming Indymedia for something a poster said would be like saying CmdrTaco was supporting what some anonymous Slashdot poster said, or blaming the Usenet cabal for a posting by some anonymous Usenet poster. I just wanted to make this clear as several people have said here that Indymedia took this position. I don't think they understand what Indymedia is. Yesterday I read through a dozen posts by people who hate the protestors on the nyc.indymedia.org site. nyc.indymedia.org is in many ways just like Slashdot in terms of anonymous posters and so forth. They can't be blamed for every bozo that comes along.
Or not. Where were the federal agents when the Nurember Files web site produced wanted posters of abortion doctors? When a doctor had been killed they'd reissue the poster with an X over the killed doctor's face. It took a 1 vote margin in the 9th circuit to say that kind of intimidation was a threat and not legally protected.
But for providing public information on people who are, 'though small time, public figures gets a federal warrant...?
-dameron
In many states posting personal information with intent to harass or stalk is a felony. I'm not aware of any federal laws to that effect though. However, the Secret Service does serve to protect the President and would reasonably investigate threats or harassment against delegates. The folks publishing this info definitely need a good legal spanking, and I agree that the ACLU is on the wrong side of this argument.
I'm finding it harder and harder to support total Internet anonymity on the ground of free speech rights when so many abuse these freedoms for criminal purposes. And given the threat of terrorism, it seems like just a matter of time before mandatory trusted authentication for all network access. And I think in the right context I'd be willing to support this. --M
By the current office?
Morals, respect or law have never seemed to be factors of great concern to the Bush Administration from what iv'e seen.
Maybe the real question is why are people going to such extremes to fight back? and what makes them feel it's ok to take such drastic action.
'[t]he only intimidation taking place here is the Secret Service intimidating people who speak out against the government.'
As a truly impartial observer (Libertarian) the Republicans are not that intimidating. What is intimidating is the leftwingers who are on the verge of losing it. Never have I seen so much ANGER in my life.
It is to the point that people are afraid of them. I am not afraid of the Secret Service, I am afraid of the leftwing wackos and anarchists who see nothing wrong with screaming, yelling, shouting obscenities, and generally being a nuisance. That is okay i guess, since it is LEFTWINGERS doing it.
I think it is funny that the Left wingers cannot handle it when given a taste of their own medicine. http//www.protestwarrior.com
And where where the complaints from these people when FBI files of REPUBLICANS showed up on Hillaries Table? Where, where, where? Must be the old (D) good (R) bad binary logic.
There is enough Hypocricy on BOTH sides, though only the hypocricy of the right ever gets reported.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
...And posting personal information for public consumption in a medium that spans the globe.
This is where 'protesting' is no longer protesting and is rather anarchy at it's infancy.
There are rules, and you need to abide by them. The so-called "American Civil Liberties Union" defends the rights of murders, thugs, anarchists and minorities, but will NOT step in when a Church is bombarded with miscreant villains who decide to spray paint on Church property. Nor do they step in the Muslim store down the block chants thier incantations 5 days a week for 5 minutes at night, but they WILL stop a white man from telling a black person that he can't work for the white guy because the white guy demands a diploma - even from a white applicant.
There is a difference between posting my IP address and posting my home telephone number which is unlisted.
And there is a THICK line between Anarchy and Protesting. These are ANARCHISTS, and they deserve to be supenoed.
Seeing which sites lie to cover and which ones don't will be somewhat informative.
CFM - coldfusion markup language , it redirects you to a pdf.
I've always advocated posting all the personal details of discovered spammers. Name, address, phone number, license plates, friends, pets, children, parents, siblings, neighbors.
It says in the Bible you should take your complaint to your brother, first, then go to the courts. Obviously, people would take issue with this even though all you're really doing is complaining about someone. The gays would (did) take issue with posting their details. So do the PETA people who run in and free all the minks and chickens. There would be a few screwballs (out of the MILLIONS in the country) that would beat someone's ass. You'd cut down on the spam, but someone would be in the hospital/morgue. Possibly neighbors and friends, too.
Which is a good way to get some deterrance in the whole mess, but it's considered poor form in this day and age...
Well if a bunch of republicans got a bunch of addresses and phone numbers and names of African-American voters posted them on the internet then recommended that people go and taunt and protest and make angry phone calls all to stop these people from voting i think i would be very angry as well as most of the county..
but this is all "legal" in terms of freedom and political speach....i am on the wall on this. I am a member of the aclu but I am not so sure they should be supporting this attack on the gop deligates.
stendec@gmail.com
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if I were I might be questioning those "voting leagues" too. From what I've gathered, it appears they go into people's houses and get them to send in an absentee balot. I don't think I'd like people coming to my door and giving me a ballot to sign then mailing it for me.
Now keep in mind this is just what some conspiracy nut might think. Sounds like the "get out the vote" campaign by the Democrats in NY where they rounded up bums and took them to the pools and gave them cigarettes to vote Democrat.
As for this being an abuse of the Justice Department, go ahead and look up an individual's name if you want to. Putting all their names on a public website with the express intent of harassing them is probably a criminal act. Why do you think the names are posted? Here are some quotes from the site:
...but since Indymedia has a habit of deleting messages on a regular basis because they disagree with the content, they had the obligation to delete this info from their boards. Instead, they left it up.
If they were truly uninvolved, the post would have been deleted a few minutes later, and the poster would have been banned. Try posting some illegally-obtained info on Slashdot, and see how long it stays up.
You only get the "anonymity" and "open posting" protections when you don't control the content.
More specifically, since it was posted by a particular user, who had stolen that info, they now have a duty to help the authorities find the felon who did the crime.
Yes:
Bush Events:
Kerry Events
I think you'd have no touble getting into a public Kerry event wearing that T-Shirt. --M
I did a whois in indymedia and they're hidden.
Interesting.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
...the crybabies in the stupid party love to have all sorts of lists THEMSELVES, but when THEY wind up on a list, they cry foul. This is THE most repressive, restrictive, scary administration I can remember going back to eisenhower, JFK clearer for me. Makes noxon and his crew of scumbags look like amateur stick up artists. Makes the last crew of crooked texans around LBJ look like choir boys, and those were some crooked mofos. You got people right now in that party and their media spokesweasels like michael savage and on their online activist forums openly calling for concentration camps and federal charges for "protesters" and calling for outright genocide against all islamic people. You got ashcroft actually pushing for the camps, and I can tell you, at least a few of them already exist, and we got more coming. Ye GADS the patriot act 1 and 2 are signed into law reality and we actually have a thing called DAS HOMELAND security. what more of a clue do you need? And if they don't get their way, they are gonna pull another bigtime phony terror attack like the one they pulled on 9-11, but this time it will be hardcore, not fooling around. These are dangerous, insane, megalomaniacal feudalists, this is the big push, all the way, hardball, going for the gold for them. They and their policies are the height of hypocrisy. At lower levels then federal, it's a different ballgame, they still got a lot of decent people, but even there, way more party loyalty than NATION loyalty, and believe me, if you ain't with them, you are a terrorist, they even said it out loud. At the top leadership levels and in the federal party level, nope, mostly fascists, and they are actively pursuing an ever increasing fascistics government. This is NO JOKE. These people are right this second getting away with mega scam 9-11, they are killing people all over the planet, co opting our own guys, disappearing people, running freeking death squads, and they got a bunch more wars planned, just waiting for an opportune time to start them. The one in iran will start once they provoke the iraninans enough to attack them "first". They are waiting until after the election to restart up the draft, and they ARE going to do it. They are blatantly, clearly, and with zero scientific evidence to the contrary using WMD in the form of DU rounds and spreading it all over the middle east, and got factories on triple time building more. They are deploying the planets most sophisticated "anti riot" alleged "less than lethal" weapons, designed for controlling masses of civilians. They have been running house to house training in gun confiscation. They have more or less taken over vast numbers of local police stations with dual badged cops. You got the head goofball who's family has clear and distinct business ties to bin laden and tangentially with saddam with monkey brains cabinet goofs, and the controlled media refuses to address this. We had a fresh zogby poll released yesterday that shows the majority of new yorkers think 9-11 was a scam,and that the whitewash commission was a joke and it needs to be reinvestigated by someone other than the fed perps who pulled it off, and you ain't seeing that poll on any of the mass media outlets, it's only on some websites and on the shortwave shows.
This is a big dangerous reichstagg fire type scam, those folks thinking this is some normal "open and honest" election coming with diebold machines or that these are normal times are just not paying attention, this is freeking germany circa mid 30's, heading for the home stretch.
You have a really annoying posting style.
Anyway, I'm sure if you're interested in joining the Republican Party, your local branch can put you in contact with someone, ie they'll have someone call you.
What I'm wondering, is why they didn't go a little further in their fax of useless contact info and include the domain registration info as well??
n terestregistry.net]
[phil@goliath phil]$ whois indymedia.org
[Querying whois.publicinterestregistry.net]
[whois.publici
--clip--
Registrant ID:DOTR-00499917
Registrant Name:Independent Media Center
Registrant Organization:IMC
Registrant Street1:1415 3rd Ave
Registrant City:Seattle
Registrant State/Province:WA
Registrant Postal Code:98101
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2062620721
Registrant Email:general@indymedia.org
--clip--
Kinda simple and is a little better than 4 lousy email addresses...
Hmm, maybe it isn't quite as useless?
anon c. (oops, almost anyway...)
Posting such information would not normally be wrong...
But this is IndyMedia we are talking about. A place where posters regularly and publicly wish for violence against people who don't share their views. IndyMedia is to liberals as Jerry Falwell is to conservatives. Both go way, WAY over the line regularly and consistantly. And neither are good representations of "their side," rather, they make "their side" look bad.
They posted this contact info for asshats with too much time to harrass people with different political views.
I read about this yesterday, and I was originally troubled. However, I no longer am. More power to the government, I say.
Let me explain.
Another post herein points out, to paraphrase, that being a schmuck isn't right even if it is legal and in support of a cause you think is just. The intent here is undeniably to harrass (and possibly intimidate?) delegates. I think physical harm is a remote possibility, but I grant that it is a possibility.
What the protesters are doing is materially no different than what the Nuremberg Files (more info at religioustolerance.org) did to abortion doctors, judges, politicians, spouses, etc. Was it legal? Sure. Public information. But it still wasn't right, it was meant to enable harrassment, and it's the same thing the protesters are doing.
Whether or not you (or I) agree with the cause is not relevant here. I'm sure some think that it's 100% wrong for the government to investigate, and that's fine. We just need to remember that often such freedom is generally a double-edged sword.
I do have a legitimate question: other than harrassment, what is a legitimate purpose for these postings?
-db
I lost a little respect for them during the last RNC in Philadelphia. Their server had some bad ram and went down. After repairing the server, they reported the downtime it as (I'm paraphrasing) 'possibly a right wing orchestrated denial of service attack'.
I empathize what they are trying to do, but ever since that day I've avoided all indymedia sites/news.
"All are encouraged to help out this campaign in any way they can. Deface websites, flood email servers, cause financial disruption, change electronic billboards. Turn the system over and put the people on top. Hacktivists of the world, unite!
What will be happening?
August 22nd - Day of online direct action a week before the convention begins. All are encouraged to attack as many right-wing, corporate, government or military sites as possible. Web defacements, email attacks, financial disruption, anything and everything. These attacks will be used to stir discussion of the RNC, encourage people to participate in the protests in NYC itself, and to build for the mainstream electronic sit-in on the 29th.
August 29 - September 2nd - Mainstream electronic sit-in while the RNC is in session. The actions will commence on noon of each day. The protests will utilize a wide diversity of tactics including email, web, fax and phone disruption. The logistical details of this campaign are included in this document below.
Who are we flooding?
The email addresses, fax numbers, and phone numbers listed below are various contacts of the Republican National Committee and the official George W. Bush re-election staff."
Then they provided the urls to websites to get dos tools, and lists of websites, fax and phone numbers, and the names and emails of Republican delegates and the hotels where they will be staying.
It depends on the context in which the information is presented. If you make it available on a website that is known as a place to air radical views and it is posted with an undertone of "let these people know how you feel", it can be rightly viewed as intimidation. Personally, I think Indymedia knew this would happen, and chose to post something provocative like this so they could later cry out about censorship. Trust me, it was a carefully crafted public relations stunt.
information... we want... information... I say, why not a web database containing contact info for all politicians, high-ranking CEOs, and their henchmen in organizations such as the 'secret' service. hell, they've surely collected enough info on the public at large, & I'm a sucker for fairness in reporting. }:)
It is my wish that all Republicans and all Democrats should eat some bad ham and die tomorrow.
Then I could get some work done in peace and quiet without poorly educated and badly misinformed idiots clamoring that they are right.
If you can't accept that NO party has all the answers, then here's a sandwich!
Of all that you posted, this is the only one I disagree with:
p. 2 #18: "We oppose the Endangered Species Act."
That's enough to kill my vote for Bush. It's also enough to kill my vote for Kerry. (For those of you who haven't been paying attention, BOTH Bush and Kerry are pro-hunters/sportsmen.)
It's a sad day when one's only choice is to vote "no confidence", and even that has to be a write-in.
Boy howdy, I'm looking forward to meta-moderation today. I'll get to mod lots of Flamebait and Troll mods as unfair. Stories like this seem to draw in the unfair moderators that downmod any political opinion they disagree with.
One of the major contributors to Indymedia is the Tides Foundation. The Heinz family (yes, Teresa's bunch) has given the Tides folks $4 million over the last few years.
...calling them "grassroots" when they're being funded by a deep-pockets political machine like the Tides Foundation is, well, wrong.
How convenient.
You have a really annoying posting style.
Would you prefer I post anonymously and not use links or any concrete examples to back up my assertions? Would that be less annoying?
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I didn't read anywhere that there were complaints of harassment made by any of the RNC families.
Yet.
Please give me one good reason why someone would post such information to a website frequented by opponents of the RNC.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
No message.
There are dozens of Indymedias - in South America, in Asia, in Europe, in the US. Each site can use whatever software it wants, with many using one of three popular software kits they developed. Each has its own policies as well. I can't recall nyc.indymedia.org deleting any messages. They do hide messages sometimes, but in that respect it is like Slashdot, you can view the -1 trolls if you wish. Of course, some other Indymedia locals have more draconian rules with deletions, banning and so forth. Each local is autonomous.
As far as illegal info on Slashdot, please. Like there weren't 1,000,000 links on Slashdot to how to get Windows source code when that was illegally released. And that is similar to Indymedia - the information was not released from Indymedia from what I understand, it was on various places on the net so someone posted it to Indymedia. It might not have even been the person who originally had gotten their hands on the data.
I'm just trying to separate the facts from the opinions. I don't want people who know nothing of Indymedia thinking the people who run it are the ones who decided to post this info of their own volition. They did not have a meeting and say lets post this info, it was just put up there. You can have an opinion on what they should do at that point, but they are coming in at step 2, they were not the protagonist at step 1.
He's talking about your formatting, dumbass.
Whose got em?
Last time I checked, the Republican Party was not a branch of government and delegates to the Republican National Convention were not necessarily members of the government.
Given Indymedia's Michael Moore-esque visits to lunacy, the list was placed up there to do one thing and one thing only, intimidate those Republican delegates. These are private citizens participating in the political process, unlike the hundreds of millions of other people who sit on the asses complaining and they don't deserve to be targeted by potentially violent people (don't even give me that peaceful protest hooey).
This is sickening and deserves no defence unless you think targetting people for their political beliefs, whether left or right, is a great idea. Oh wait, I'm sure there will be people who think it is a great idea.
You want to know who isn't running Firefox 2.x? They spell it "definately" and "rediculous".
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
And there's also a quote from them:
The people that posted the list and the ones that will undoubtedly use it to harass the delegates aren't interested in speaking on their own views, they are interested in suppressing the views of others. Stopping this intimidation and harassment would actually be a boon to free speech, not a hinderance.I may just send in my renewal though... I don't always agree with the people the ACLU defend, but if the most guilty and underserving of us can be abused by the government, it may not be long before we're all at risk. As Thomas Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
Please explain to EU citizen.
Why weren't there any of those? I really wanted to see them. We live in the age of misinformation
"...but he has lately demonstrated that his loyalty to his party exceeds his loyalty to his country."
What the hell is this? Did you ever consider that maybe he thinks his party is the best one for the country? I mean, he's a REPUBLICAN Senator for a reason.
I get the impression McCain is about as impressed with John Kerry as he is with a pile of old dogshit in the road. And while he doesn't like Bush, you don't have to LIKE someone to think they're the better candidate for office. As for the accusations about Kerry in Vietnam, if he would talk about a reason to elect him OTHER than the 4 months he spent there, then maybe other people would dwell less on it as well.
"I had more respect for him. No longer."
Your respect was probably going to last only as long as McCain ripped on his own party. Somehow, I don't think he's weeping for the loss of your endorsement.
By the way, here's a standards check: do you also respect Zell Miller or Ed Koch or Ron Silver, liberals all, for going against their party because their convictions tell them to?
My money says you're calling them sellouts. I'd be willing to bet "respect" and "conviction" is a one way street for you.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
that no-one should be able to figure out that Bush lost the election four years ago.
Slashdot is owned by OSDN, whose parent company is VA Software.
Lots of corporate money here!
is another.
'Here's the list of delagates'
or
'Here's the list of delegates, go make them feel unwelcome.'
If the fact of assault on a delegate
follows then one might look at the logs to see if
the person making the assault is connected with
the site. Even if connected, there will have to
be a case made that the encouragement and info from the site precipitated the action of assault.
I might g read a pyro site and a model planbe site and make my own automaton kamakazi lawnmower motor powered 'son of predator' and use it to smoke a billboard I don't like. No problem for the sites, unless, in addtion to providing the info, they encouraged smoking that partcular billboard. In this case, they are party to my action.
ok. sorry about that.
I use my slashdot-visible email addresses as spam sources to train my mail filters.
The sysadmin from the NYC Indymedia site is the one who's under investigation for hacking the Protest Warrior site and disseminating their full mailing list.
In this case, NYC Indy is neck-deep in it, and it's getting deeper.
There's a certain irony that the people hiding behind anonymous posts which were trying to intimidate convention delagates by publishing their personal details and locations are now claiming indimidation about their mere identities being exposed.
It's just stunningly hypocritical for anyone to claim intimidation by the mere uncovering of their anonymous identity when they've posted the personal details including residence of others encouraging thousands of potential protestors to show up and ahem... 'protest'.
If you go posting information online in a way that clearly invites intimidation of others and worse, excuse me if I don't feel very sympathetic about bleating of intimidation when someone attempts to uncover your anonymity.
It almost takes anonymous posting to a new low, but let's face it, it is pretty tough to reach new depths there.
Thanks to the editiors for once again proving me with more folks to add to my foes list.
If you want to highlight how stupid the Secret Service reaction is just go to this web site.
"Look up campaign contributors to federal elections by ZIP Code. Get information on contributor name, amount, employer, candidate, party and more. Updated Jul 15 2004."
So why is this database not voter intimidation. You can find the party bias of everyone whose donated to a candidate or party including where they work.
@de_machina
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Please give me one good reason why someone would post such information to a website frequented by opponents of the RNC
The most obvious example is funding. Wouldn't you like to be able to cross-reference databases of people who dumped stock just before a company slipped into bankruptcy or tanked its stock price with databases of people who make up the political parties? Isn't it nice to have a list of people who stand to directly profit from underhanded political add-ons to bills in Congress? Wouldn't it be better if the citizens could actively determine which of these members seems to always get the hot tip which somehow makes their investments soar while the rest of us deal with funds moving at a snail 6% rate?
Well, no. Of course we wouldn't want that information. Americans have a long history of giving in to BOHICA--mostly because, even if we have these lists and can cross-reference the databases, there isn't a darn thing we can do about it. For every crooked politician we replace there are 5 of last year's new recruits who are being sucked into the system of graft and fraud.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
When people got in trouble for publishing abortion doctors informastion to the web.
Stupid things kids do.
Pictures:
r yimages/WynnMeeting.jpg
http://www.austinpublicskatepark.org/images/galle
But, which one is Seth?
...I sure would like to hear comment from the Kerry campaign on that. Given the editorial slant of "LifeNews.com" I'm willing to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt and assume there are either unreported facts missing in the story or that this event did not occur due to campaign policy. But if it happened as reported, Kerry or a campaign official should clarify their policy on public dissent during campaign speeches. Thanks for the link. --M
The dorky looking molestor. Oops, that's all of them.
...I'm going to anyway.
" 1) What is the Justice Department doing about the harrassment of Black Voting Leagues in Florida? If the answer (which I suspect it is) is "nothing" than this a clear case of government being used in a partisan and heavy-handed manner."
The intimidation you speak of is a non-issue. There was accusations of voter fraud in Orlando area elections regarding absentee ballot abuse. The allegations were that one of the candidates was taking advantage of elderly black voters. The state investigated. The state found nothing. The state closed the case. But the liberal establishment tried and failed to make an issue out of it. Only one reporter covered the story nationwide (Bob Herbert of the NY Times), and his story was so incendiary, it was pulled from some papers, including the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. Editors rightly saw it for what it was, a conspiritorial-themed opinion piece, not journalism. Try to find an article on it by any other writer. Go on, do your Google-best.
"It's also racist and classist."
That statement speaks volumes about you. Marx is dead, and his ideas went with him. Try to get over this.
"I don't know about your state, but the Georgia GOP's website already lists already lists their delegates as well as the alternates for all to see."
So? Just their names are listed. And political parties aren't goverment entities. They have a greater right to privacy. And though you'd eat flaming dog feces before you'd ever admit it, the purpose of posting that contact information to Indymedia was to intimidate people in an election. You'd think that, with all of your concern about the voter leagues issue, voter intimidation is something that you'd agree is wrong. I guess that it's only wrong for some people, huh?
"This is a disingenuous, partisan, racist, classist abuse of the Justice Department"
From one of my favorite movies, Young Frankenstein..."Nice Grouping". You managed to get all of the stock leftist name-calling words in one sentance, and you even threw in some Marxist ammunition with the "classist" stuff. Congratulations. You win the 1st grade playground sticks-and-stones contest.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Discredit the sacrifices of our soldiers?
l =C&cycle=2004
Uhmm the whole point of the swift vets is to point out that Kerry did this when he came back. He backstabbed his fellow soldiers by saying they committed war crimes, when Kerry had no such evidence. How is this not discrediting the sacrifices of the soldiers during the Vietnam era? On top of that Kerry now uses his service of 4 months as a reason to vote for him, yet since he came back he said he was against his service and the war. If anyone has issues it is your misunderstanding of the facts.
Secondly its convenient to try and say BUSH is connected to this group but where is the evidence. One lawyer is not a smoking gun. On top of that what about Kerry's involvement with moveon.org and all the other 527 groups which his election committee was actively involved with for setting up concerts etc.
The hypocrisy runs thick. It's hard for most people to admit both of these candidates have less than a stellar record to vote for them. The sad part is most people are voting for Kerry only because they hate Bush, so I ask you this one question. What does Kerry stand for? I bet you will be unable to find out because of his unbelievable ability to change his stance on an issue based upon what is appeared to be hot at the time. Frankly I do not want a president who will change his mind because of pressure.
One more thing, I remember so many people saying how great the new campaign finance reform would be and how we needed it to clean up our elections. Why aren't their cries of injustice for the 527 groups? Why hasn't the media made a big deal about this? The intent of the reform law was not so groups, implied to be working with both parties, can spend unlimited money to get the candidates message across. You should also note the rather obvious imbalance between one political party verses another. Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527cmtes.asp?leve
This of course doesn't even address the power that has been given to the media due to these laws.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" -Confucius
kinda like the subject says.
Sadly...I am being honest. But hey...if you are honest on the average Michael story on slashdot, you are a troll.
Rah rah...bad is good. Down with government. Whatever.
Anyone this side of Newt knows about Florida officially engaging in voter intimidation. By party affiliation and race, with the help of Texas cronies. If Ashcroft insists on refusing to prosecute Jeb Bush and company then arguing unequal enforcement should be a walk in the park. Oh, right, activist Republicans appointed to the judicial branch. Dixie wins one for the Gipper.
Did it dawn on you that I use my complete name as my signature? Might that suggest to you that I'm not as concerned about anonymity on the internet as you are?
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
They're not members of a committee. They're delegates.
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
- They wanted to let this 'investigation' get out -- create a sense of chill.
- They didn't want to taint the Patriot act that bad.. My understanding is that the information in question is public... to bring 'posting' public information as part of a politicial action campaign under a (supposedly) anti-terrorist law would rip open the fact that the act is far more of a threat to our rights and freedoms than they have people believing at first blush.
As far as I can tell, they could have done this, but they just decided not to.Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Bullshit. The Secret Service are requesting the IP addresses of all users of the site. It's called a fishing expedition. Lots of people use nyc.indymedia.org, didn't post the information (not that there's anything legally wrong with the information) and don't want the Secret Service sniffing around their IPs like a mutt after a bitch in heat.
If you take the trouble to read the articles you'll see the FBI tried this shit with indymedia previously after an oh-so-convenient-anonymous-post put up bogus information that the FBI claimed was a "security leak".
Pull the other one.
Looks like we're on the same page regarding guns.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Okay... back to the meaningful point rather than picking apart the nature of personal association...
Where is there any evidence that this is being used for harassment? I think the citizens of America would be quite happy to know which of these people are receiving the greatest small business subsidies from their taxpayer dollars.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
No, your mom is evil! EVIL, I say!
She may look safe, with those silly hats and home-knitted American Flag jumpers... Don't you see? BUSH IS USING SENIOR CITIZENS AS MANCHURIAN ATTACK ZOMBIES!
Your mother is simply a machine now, controlled by a woolen biochip, and those noisemakers are, in reality, weapons so hideous even I cannot speak their name.
So to post her address, while it would be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS for anyone to follow up on, is an act of patriotism. Hopefully the Republican attack-zombies can be drowned in the blood of wave after wave of Indymedia's own men.
Or is it too late?
The people doing this are almost certainly not supporters of the "Democrats". If you read their own post then you'll see the following statement:
(But do not misinterpret us, we do not view the Democratic Party as an opposition party, but rather as another side of the same coin.)There is good reason behind this sentiment. Kerry is on his own admission pro-War, pro-tax cuts, anti-gay marriage. He's a fellow Skull&Bones member like George W. Bush. Basically he's a right-wing candidate wearing the friendly clown-face as opposed to G.W.B. who wears the sad clown face.
I can't possibly sum up the disgusting history of the Democratic Party (and hence the hypocrisy, blindness and ignorance of anyone that posits them as an alternative to the Republicans), but if you're actually interested (instead of wanting a yes-it-is-no-it-isn't exchange) then I recommend reading _Dime's Worth of Difference_ by Jeffrey St.Clair and Alexander Cockburn. Here are a couple of tastes of it.
By the way, what's the name of that "hackers and hippies" party? I want to vote for them!
Just an FYI, the Secret Service is under the Department of the Treasury, not the Department of Justice. I didn't read every reply so this might have been posted before.
You need to get out on the Internet more.
And Christ does it suck. I was going to mod you up cause your content is pretty good, but cut down on the whitespace, makes you look like a chump.
You realize that in the 1950 and 60 the south was 100% Democrat. It was democrats doing all that evil shit to Blacks don't you. You also realize George Wallace was a democrat don't you. You also must realize that Republicans voted for the 1964 voting right act and they were the the ones who helped pass it and that most democrats voted against it. Since you know so much about the 1960 and 50s' you know all this is true dont you?. I do because I was alive and saw it. It's not some crap in a history book, TV or Wiki wanking that conviently leaves the political affiliations of the actors out. I saw the firehoses used on non violent protesters demanding their natural civil rights, I saw the police dogs used on non violent protestors. Democrats were doing that. It's shaped my whole life.
Look up the break down by party of the south in the 1950's and 1960's
Racial opression is wrong no matter who is doing it. The Democrats don't have clean hands.
You also might want to look up and see which President has had the most black cabinet members in your googling too.
Of course we all know about G.W.Bush and the patriot act and all kinds of other bad stuff. No need to beat a dead horse on that, as most Slashdotters hate Bush already. We all agree that Bush is a bad, bad man.
But why the mindless cheerleading for those on the left?
It was the left who pushed the government to crack down on protests as a way to silence anti-choice protestors, and those same laws are now being used to crack down on protests of Bush.
It is the left that supported terrible censorship in the way of political correctness.
Leftists always scream bloody murder when the FBI wants to be able to access private information on demand in order to catch terrorists, but will support without question the right of the IRS to access private information on demand in order to tax people.
The left complains that the media is being controlled by a handfull of powerful corporations... their solution: put the media under the control of a handfull of powerful politicians.
The left always tell us about the need for the government to strongly regulate the economy. But when the government does enforce regulation like the DMCA, they suddenly change their tune.
The left protests when the U.S. government bombs children in other countries (and rightfuly so), but when the U.S. bombs children in Waco Texas U.S.A, they wholehearted support it.
The lefists complain about Republicans cheating the elections... and then use every dirty trick in the book to exclude candidates of other parties (Libertarians, Green Party).
I hate G. W. Bush and everything he stands for... but, come on, these people protesting are just as bad as G.W. Bush. Are people really so cought up in their political jingoism that they can't see how they are just as facist in action, and probably even more so in idiology, as G.W.Bush?
Yet you post as AC. Humorous.
Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government
It's illogical to vote Republican in 2004.
Bush's education improvements were fraud. (my sig)
I had a situation that pounded home how this isn't a case for the Secret Service. I had a person calling me at work and home harrassing me. It sucked big time and drive my wife crazy. So we called the police and they told us that unless a phiysical threat was made, there was NOTHING they could do. The person calling had the right to call me as much as they wanted so long as there was no physical threat.
Seems that if your name and number is in the public record (phone book), then that is an invitation to call. We got an unlisted number after moving. So no, these guys are still available to be called until their numbers are actually listed as restricted. That's how the police explained it to me.
------------
Huh?
The political divisiveness in this country continues to get worse and worse.. and for what?
What happened to just being an American? When did it become fashionable to insult and hate anyone that wasn't on the same side of a manufactured binary proposition as you? I mean, I can't imagine that I'm really that different from somebody voting for the other guy - I go to my job, the other guy goes to his. We both need to sleep at night, we both need to eat to survive, we both like being able to speak our minds, we both like living in america enough that we haven't moved.
So what exactly is the deal with people being so hateful?
Given how close the last election was, how can any one on EITHER "side" beleive that the "other side" is 100% pure evil with no worthwhile qualities ? Beleiving such would put you in disagreement with about 50% of americans.
Do you hate 50% of the population ? Do you think 50% of the population is dumb ? Do you think 50% of the population is dumber than you? Do you feel that the 50% that voted the way you didn't were misguided and got badly duped?
I suspect the 04 election will be as close as the 00 election, meaning if you're being an asshole towards someone or some group based on their political beleifs, you may as well go down your street and be an asshole to every other house you visit.
Disagreeing is healthy.
Being violent and hateful towards your fellow americans isn't.
The mean spirited slogans, shirts, posters, rhetoric etc IMO are really tearing down this country. The negativity only increases the divisiveness. You'd think with all of the anger and what not being displayed, i'd be able to figure out what people were actually upset about, but more often then not, i can't. Maybe that makes me a dumbass, but my vote counts as much as yours, so stop being a shithead.
The attitudes displayed by the submitters of this data are not positive, and not healthy. People are just people and they think what they do for a reason. Harassing them or threatening them won't change their worldview, but it will continue to widen the fissure between two halves of the same nation.
I've seen a lot of slashdotters defending the people behind this and that's what's really upsetting. We're all intelligent enough to be wary of free speech, intimidation, and government tampering with individual rights.
We, by and large, also know what it's like to be on the receiving end of intimidation, harassment, and being singled out by hateful mobs. (or did you not go to highschool ?)
If you beleive that the ends justify the means, then anything is rationalizable. Please make sure that you're not setting a double standard about what is ok and what isn't depending on the political viewpoints of the targets.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Here is a list of the Illinois RNC delegates. Is the Secret Service going to go after the Illinois Leader too?
As nearly as I can tell this is the first year the RNC HASN'T released the delegate list. It really should be a matter of public record so all Republicans know who is representing them at the convention.
Here are a bunch more delegates names and home towns. Some more with pictures. The leaders of all the delegations are names by state and they have features on many of the delegates.
It really is over the top to make this much of a fuss over it. Maybe the hotels where there is staying is a pushing it a little but once you have the names which really are really easy to find out, all you need is a hotel guide of New York to discern where they are staying, and you call the front desk and ask for them by name until you find them.
From the CSPAN coverage I've watched half of them seem to be staying in a hotel that looks out on the 9/11 site which is a really good tool to whip up their patriotic zeal.
@de_machina
Indymedia, recommended by Communist Party USA
:-(
http://www.cpusa.org/link/category/19/
Great source of news
Does your shitty formatting make you feel special, or something?
When did "i don't see it that way" become "Absolutely Wrong"?
Regardless of your political affiliation, or your position in the US government, it seems that you should have the right to not be harassed, threatened, or intimidated by anybody.
If you can say with a straight face that the point of this document is NOT for people to intimidate, harass, or threaten members of a political organization, I am listening.
What happened to just being civil. Isn't it possible to say "You know, i don't like some of the policies of this administration" without threatening people, physically assaulting them, harassing them at work/home, and generally being a shithead?"
Were there ever any good ole days of "well, i'm voting for the other guy"?
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
What the hell happened to the Secret Service in the last three and a half years?
Firstly, they have been instructing police departments around the country to construct "First Amendment Zones" whereever Bush or other Bushites are speaking. A First Amendment Zone is an out-of-the-way place miles from the President, surrounded by walls and wire, guarded by goons and dogs, and festooned with cameras to record your every visual detail. Show up to protest, and you are unceremoniously shown to the FAZ, where you are identified, processed and allowed to chant at a telephone pole. Presidential supporters are of course bussed in if necessary - happened here in Chicago.
Secondly, the Secret Service is being dispatched, along with the FBI, to investigate even potential protestors in their homes. The "we know who you are" routine.
Thirdly, the SS won't let the press talk to Michael Moore, who is corresponding for USA Today this week.
Secret
Service shuts down Michael Moore interviews. Why is the
Secret Service Engaged in Direct Political Work for Bush? Isn't That
Illegal? 8/31
Here's a sample of what happens when a political party gets its own federal guard:
Seabrook: Yes, I am in the middle of a...you might be able to hear the Secret Service yelling into my mic at the same time. There, there are a bunch of Secret Service that have surrounded Michael Moore's section. There are three or four reporters with him right now, but they are trying to kick all of the reporters and press photographers who are around him out of his area. The convention staff is also here. They're standing here telling us that we have to move from this are...they're obviously disturbed by the fact that Michael Moore is here and want as little public here as possible.
Stachio: Can we hear? Can we hear what's going on? Can you stick a mic in there? I don't know if we can hear.
Seabrook: Yeah...ah...eh...they've sort of moved me away from that area.
Stachio: I don't understand. Who is it? Is it Secret Service?
Seabrook: It's Secret Service which is interesting because the Secret Service of all agencies is the one that remains...is the least involved in the sort of political...political kinds of things, but of course they always cover the candidates and they have to be involved in the convention like this. They claim that what they're doing is for safety reasons, although there is a almost nobody around Michael Moore right now. So a we'll see if I can a...
Secret Service Agent: [crosstalk] thank you very much
Seabrook: Yeah, I'm being herded back in four different ways right now.
***
People, Bush has created his own private extra-constitutional intelligence and police force! The SS must be loaded to the gunwhales with hard-right wing fanatics.
Doesn't this terrify you all?
The Secret Service was created to protect the President. Does "protection" mean reelecting him at all costs?
Why do we even need a Secret Service, anyway? Why are they guarding the Saudi Arabian embassy in Washington DC? Can't police guard the President? Is the President so holy and inviolate that we have to shut down entire cities when he arrives? He's a civilian employee, for God's sake, not an emperor! They are welding manhole covers shut in foreign countries to protect him. WHAT? THE? HELL?
Why do I think that this level of political protection will not be deemed necessary by the SS when Kerry assumes the office? Kerry, clean house. Grow a pair, find out the names of the officials who have cultured this monster. and make them be gone.
That's for sure. You can't dislike or hate bias itself because humans are by definition biased. What you most likely refer to is zealotry, unaccuracy, fallacies, trolls, astroturfers, spam and other noise. I admit this is a problem.
Calling all Indymedia contributors "anti-corporate" is just not accurate. I'm a contributor to a local Indymedia, albeit not much of a regular one, while i'm certainly biased i'm also for certain not "anti-corporate". Yes, i don't like some corporations. But i don't hate them all. It is a stereotype. I'm willing to accept it is true for a lot of Indymedia contributors and/or readership (i really don't know for sure i only know a few) but not for me, and not for some i know.
Left-wing and right-wing is part of a number of dogmatic definitions this society needs to get rid of because it lacks function. Just what does that say? To me, nothing in accuracy, only when i add stereotypes to it, it does. I don't agree with the many stereotypes associated with both (including extreme-) because these often don't apply.
As i said, ofcourse Indymedia is biased. I don't believe everything which is published either. But the same counts for other news services, right? Indymedia, at least what i do there, tries to report/journal on news which ain't reported elsewhere or which is falsely reported elsewhere. If you ask me, that's a useful addition.
Ofcourse there are some zealots, trolls and astroturfers, but that's a good thing from some point of view too; they keep the reader healthy and recommend the reader even more to research him or herself.
I don't agree with the GP that Indymedia is one of the few grassroot movements in the media. There are a damn lot ones, they're just less known to the general public. Some of these are of good quality too, you might want to check them out.
In fact, the whitetail deer population in the U.S. is out of control
According to humans or natural trends?
and without the hunting season, you actually have a greater chance of being killed because you struck a deer while driving.
That's the deer's fault? Animals weren't put here so we could shoot them when they interfered with our driving habits.
/* Is whether the people posting the information are willing to post the same information about themselves. */
According to article, this is public data.
I.e. this is the information that RNC delegates are willing to provide about themselves.
For instance, not everyone on those lists have address, phone, etc.
I guess RNC could argue that it holds copyright on data or something - but really, this is something RNC themselves give out.
I say Secret Service should go after those who actually use data to intimidate people - if there is anyone actually intimidating delegates. After all, a stalker could pretty much use switchboard.com all by himself.
Bullshit. The whole point is to spread lies and sow dissent. Only one of those lying bastards even served with Kerry, and he got a medal for his actions *under fire* in the same engagement that he now claims didn't involve any fire.
... 'I think the president has some strong arguments about some of the assets of most-favored-nation status for China,' Kerry said." (John Aloysius Farrell, "Kerry Breaks Party Ranks To Back China Trade Status," The Boston Globe, 6/15/91)
Wrong, I actually spent the time to email most of the vets, this is incorrect. Read this: Crews were trained as a unit, one officer and five enlisted at Coronado, CA. Boats did missions together in units. Therefore one boat would spend countless time on a mission with other boats. We went through training around Jan/Feb 1969.
If you don't know that the Vietnam war was plagued by atrocities by all sides, then you don't know a damn thing about it and have no place pretending that you do.
Again read what I wrote: I said he claimed those he served with committed those acts. The key is those he served with. Those people being the swift vets saying he is lying. Of course you know more than those who were there.
He went. He saw what a clusterfuck it was and he came home and spoke out against the big fucking lie that we all now know that that war was. So this demonstrates that he can learn and even change his mind when the evidence overwhelmingly demands it. And the right wing media calls this flip flopping.
Again, think please, if this is true then why now does he say how great he was for doing this? If I felt so strongly against something, I AM NOT going to then go and use my actions as a reason to vote for me. I would continue to speak out against this. P.S. He supposedly threw his medals away in protest; funny thing is those were not his medals.
Dude, if you don't know his people are neck deep in this you are dumber than a bag of rocks.
First don't change the subject I was talking exclusively about 527's. Second, calling me names is great evidence, keep it up.
When has he changed his mind over pressure? He has changed his mind based on evidence. Bush refuses to change his mind in the face of evidence.
You set yourself up for this:
FLIP...
Kerry 2004 announced Saturday: "I will work with Congress to lift the immigration ban on HIV-positive people that has prohibited the United States from hosting [an annual AIDS conference]."
FLOP...
February 1993, Boston Globe: "The US Senate dealt President Clinton his first legislative defeat yesterday, voting to write into law the Bush administration's policy prohibiting people infected with the AIDS virus from immigrating to the United States. The defeat came despite Sen. Edward M. Kennedy's spirited battle in defense of the president's commitment to lift the prohibition. The Senate voted, 76-23, to prevent people infected with the HIV virus, which causes AIDS, from immigrating, after defeating by a 56-42 vote an amendment by Kennedy that would have kept current federal policy in place for 90 days but left Clinton free to change it after that. Kennedy accused the Republicans of both racism and partisan mean- spiritedness.
Voting for the prohibition were Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut; Sen. William S. Cohen, Republican of Maine; Sen. John F. Kerry; Sens. Judd Gregg and Robert C. Smith, Republicans of New Hampshire; Sen. John H. Chafee, Republican of Rhode Island; Sen. Claiborne Pell, Democrat of Rhode Island; and Sen. James M. Jeffords, Republican of Vermont.
FLIP...
In 1991, Kerry Supported Most-Favored Trade Status For China. "Sen. John Kerry said yesterday that he is breaking party ranks to support most-favored-nation trade status for China
FLOP...
In 2000, Kerry Voted In Favor Of Permanent Normal Trade Relations With China. (H.R. 4444, CQ Vote #251: Passed 83-15: R 46
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" -Confucius
Remember, if you disagree, you're clearly racist/homophobic/totalitarian etc, and thus any and all means of squashing whatever dissent you may have is fair game.
Modern Yoots love to play things both ways; they are free to disobey any law they don't agree with (that's just civil disobedience, right?) but everyone else had best look out because those laws must be obeyed! Walk onto a college campus and attempt to explain why racial preferences are bad. You're not defending a meritocracy, you're assaulting the mediocracy, and will be duly punished.
The fundamental illogic with this asymmetric approach inherent in liberalism usually becomes apparent to people as they reach their mid to late twenties, fortunately. The basic fairness of the golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" tends to sink in as soon as people acquire property etc.
But remember, there really IS a vast right wing conspiracy out there. You can read it on the internet, it must be true!
According to humans or natural trends? Let's try both. In Ohio youll find in some burgeoning populations of deer (which end up in large numbers dismembered on the side of the highway) in the spring but by winter you see massive starvation. So. Discounting those that die by car accidents and hunting, there are still enough to cause starvation on a large scale. Sounds like there are too many fucking deer now that they have no natural predators besides us.
--Kevin
I was going to vote Libertarian but with enough rabid people like you around, I think I have to head over to the Republican sides.
Another poster said it best, it is unbelievable how much raw HATRED such as what you spewed is flying around. I can't go with any group that goes that far to demonize any one man. At least the Republicans are just saying Kerry is indecisive - not the Devil in human form.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Neither Kerry nor Bush is as evil and some would make either one to be. It's super hard now to get any kind of real debate going on anything.
The hatred is too much for me, I've gone turtle and am heading for high ground until November before the sheer negativity infects me as it has others.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Start stop watch:
George "Shit for Brains" Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.,
Washington,
DC 20509-1600
Would dns-admin@osdn.com kindly post
the time when they are contacted by
the SS please.
"Never trust a computer you can't throw." -- The Mac
A lot of that comes undocumented though, you have to be a little suspicous. No-Fly list? I don't think so.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Those all are very reasonable. I don't see how a rational person could oppose any of those. And, there was a public process in creatiing that platform. Any voter interested could have participated. In Texas, it all starts at the precinct convention, which is held right after the polls close and is held at the same location. If you did not attend, then shame on you. I attended, got a resolution passed calling for the repeal of the Patriot Act. It was passed on to the Senatorial Convention where it failed by one vote. It was the only really close resolution.
The polarization is making it difficult to talk about any remotely political topics in a balanced way to find solutions or even common ground. Take, for example, education (soul-sucking registration required).
That's the deer's fault? Animals weren't put here so we could shoot them when they interfered with our driving habits.
We displaced the deer's predators, so now we have to take their place. Would you prefer we leave them alone so they could binge and starve and kill a lot of us?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
If that was the case, than spammers could force sites like spamhaus.org to be shut down.
IIRC the courts have generally upheld individual's rights to publish someone's address as long as it wasn't in a deliberately threatening form such as making an image of the person in the crosshairs of a rifle and posting their home address next to it (for example the Nuremberg Files website).
Sounds like there are too many fucking deer
ITYM "there are too many deer fucking."
HTH.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
... from the listings of abortion-providing doctors posted online by the anti-abortion extremists?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
how about this one on page 12?
... The Party also seeks a ban on research cloning (where a cloned human embryo, created through SCNT, is created, grown in the laboratory, and then destroyed when its stem cells are extracted for research purposes). ..."
"Human Cloning -
good, i was starting to fear we might make medical advances with this stuff.
I just got back from a brief excursion into Manhattan...saw a protest march in progress going down 6th Avenue.
The first thing I saw were the 40 or so police on scooters, then I noticed about 80 on foot, in ranks 2-deep (might have had riot-gear, couldn't see).
"Buried" within this sea of blue were about 30 or so protesters - the one at the front was holding a sign that said something like "Keep Our Earth Green."
So basically peaceful evironmentalists were outnumbered 4-1 by Police Officers.
In short, the Right to Peacably Assemble is alive and well. Horray!
The people posting the information (Hotel rooms, cell phone numbers, scehdules) were posting it to intimidate and were promoting violent acts.
That is not protected speech, under any stretch of imagination.
Also considering the left's tendency towards violence (when was the last time you saw Republicans and Conservatives assualting people?) It's a pretty fair assumption that these people are up to no good.
Since humans are the only entities in the ecosystem that can think about things like populations being out of control, I'd venture to guess "according to humans".
No, deer were put here so that predators could eat them.
I am a predator. Deer are tasty. Deer shot cleanly by hunters are better than deer hit by cars, because I for one don't eat roadkill.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Yeah, it would be like someone identifying an undercover CIA agent on national television. I *KNOW* there would be consequences for an action like that!
</sarcasm>
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for either party here. I dislike them both equally, but you're just wrong. Have you even looked at the website in question? This isn't a bunch of pro-life freaks with gun sights superimposed over pictures of doctors. It's an image map of the US linked to lists of delegates. Now step away from the TV, away from your 30-seconds-hate, clear your partisan head a bit, and look again. Does it really look like a tool of the devil? Do you really think it was Osama that posted that page? Come on now.
Besides, your "common sense" approach would be just the kind of attitude to get something like this pulled offline. It's not black or white; it's grey. If the Bill of Rights only applies in the white, it isn't worth anything.
Furthermore, if you don't like anonymous posters, I suggest you move. Why do you think it is the First Amendment? Anonymous publishing has been used as a political tool in this land since before the dawn of this nation. The Bill of Rights is simply there to point out that ACs are OK. It's one of the founding principles of this nation.
You state that this is like the phone book. I am a democrat and I find this reprehensible. The republican delegates had AS MUCH right to assemble freely without intimidation and discuss their views. If you feel they were wrong OPPOSE them in the ways laid out in our laws. Don't be a coward and anonymously post their phone numbers, restaurant scheds etc.... Grow up. I am proud of the people who stood in NY city holding signs etc... to gather air time and refrained from outright f*&king with people on an individual basis.
Bush is known world wide and Kerry not near as much. Which is the bigger target? A Senator or the President? THAT'S why everyone needs to be scrutinized who come with in sight of the guy not because he wants to be secretive.
Your primary argument is that Bush must stifle dissent when he speaks in public (really private events, but I digress), in order to protect him against potential violence. Further, Candidate Kerry doesn't need this level of "protection" because he isn't the president and is thus not a likely target. You forget Robert F. Kennedy, killed by an assassin's bullet to the head after having given his California primary victory speech in Los Angeles prior to the 1968 Democratic convention. He likely would have beat Hubert Humphrey, the eventual Democratic nominee.
All candidates face serious danger from lunatics and political extremists on the campaign trail. That Kerry chooses to keep his events open to the public in the face of open dissent and polarized discourse would seem to show real COURAGE. Or possibly recklessness. But I seriously doubt stifling political dissent -- free speech -- would protect either President Bush or Candidate Kerry from a real assassin. The Secret Service should have more serious concerns than running around directing local police to arrest dissenters with unfavorable T-Shirts and signs so the President won't feel embarrassed in public. IMO their primary and only concern should be to protect the President, his family, and other critical executive officials from physical danger. Whatever security checks they need do to meet that goal is fine by me.
--Maynard
It's pretty ironic to sit back in the comfort of your home and call someone a "dictator" who you know damn well is not going to kill you, or try the seventh generation treatment on you, or even spoil your milk.
I don't understand how you can feel Bush is any kind of dictator knowing what we know about REAL dictators. All you do is weaken any valid arguments you may have, and sadly deman those mistreated by REAL dictators who would have your skin for breakfast for saying what you said.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
as an indymedia site system admin (not in nyc), I can say that it is universal policy not to log IP numbers, percisely for these sorts of reasons. They would have to go upstream of the web server if the provider keeps info.
It is a harassment list (and I agree that the process to get off it once you are accidentally on should be much better). But how many people have really been denied flights altogether?
And speculation about activists being specifically put on the list are pretty far out there I think.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Upon finding out that you might agree or disagree with some of these elements, you probably would like to contact your national delegate to urge that person to listen to your input before the national party platform is finalized. The Indymedia list seems to be a valuable reference for doing so.
This is true, but the posting of the locations of these people is also a valuable resource for people who just want to demonstrate and let them know they don't like RNC politics or the administration. There is nothing illegal about that (yet). There does not have to be any justification for posting this information. No laws are broken.
The Department of Homeland Security's (and the Secret Service is now a part of DHS) misuse of the excuse of "voter intimidation" to investigate people exercising their constitutional rights to publish is just like when they misuse the material witness laws to imprison citizens for years with no charges and no access to attorneys. (They aren't under arrest so therefore they have no right of access to the court system is the government's perverted logic).
Sorry to post this as anonymous coward, but I don't want to be put on a no-fly list or have the Secret Service knocking at my door.
The small damage hunters may do to the environment does not begin to compare to the damage caused by habitat destruction. One large upscale ski resort is far more destructive to wildlife. Hunters in fact have a vested interest in preserving habitat
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Given that all this information is publicly available, why is publishing a list of presidential nominating delegates "intimidation"?
And what sort of political party thinks they need to keep these names secret?
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
Yes, that's right, we can't tell members of Congress who approves the party platform because of, try to keep a straight face, national security. (The member of Congress in question is a Republican).
See ya' in the M2 ;P
According to the ACLU reply, the ISP doesn't keep the data that the government is looking for. Do ISP's have a legal obligation to keep records as to who does what and when on their systems? If not, it seems that ISP's could save themselves a lot of trouble by deliberately NOT logging such data.
All theory is gray
yes, an idiot
If any of you want a right to privacy, ever, then you'd better respect their right to privacy, whether you agree with their views or not, and whether you think that you are using this knowledge for some greater good.
Moral relativism is evil, and it is wrong to assume that the ends justify the means. Ever.
These people are not your representatives. The political parties are not the government.
They will decide what the views of the party are, and then you will decide whether to vote for that party. If you don't like it that way, then move to another country.
Word.
Visit the best Liberal Blog: DU
Just out of curiousity, how much do you think surfing this site through an anon proxy makes you suspicious? I mean, this is the FBI we're talking about.
At least the hotel is, though e-mail and home addresses aren't going to change just because the convention is over. So there isn't going to be much delay between receiving information, and posting it. Certainly not time to do more than the most minimal sanity checking (does address exist, do city and ZIP match?) Why not pollute their database to the point where nobody trusts it, or at least has to waste a lot of time chasing a red herring or doing research? If you can fill up the database with half bogus entries, you've just caused any group using the database to spread their resources twice as far. Some of them could even be honeypots, pointing at law enforcement who are waiting for any sort of harrassment or excessively loud shouting, or maybe even a fart in their general direction.
Sometimes it's much easier to undermine someone's tools than it is to take them away.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
"If you didn't know, trap-shooting, while a fun sport, tends to be overrun with what could be termed the aristocratic snobs of the so-called "gun culture.""
Bzzt! Thanks for playing!
I used to live next door to a gun shop in rural Vermont. In fact, I used to set trap for trap shooters to make pocket money when I was 12 years old.
The people who were shooting trap were people who (a) liked to shoot trap because it's a fun challenge or (b) liked to shoot trap as practice for hunting.
Sorry, but there were no aristocratic snobs there. At the time, there wasn't much for aristrocratic snobs in Vermont, period. (How the times have changed)
My advice is that you keep your trap shut and stop spouting stereotypical cliches.
...that the "But they've posted that information already!" arguments leave out a crucial fact: the previously-posted information includes P.O. Box or government/business addresses and government/business telephone numbers. Nowhere on the referenced sites could I find home addresses and home phone numbers.
Seriously, would you want your kids to be playing in the front yard when folks like you saw in those videos showed up to curse, taunt, throw urine and generally create a nuisance? We, as adults, can laugh some of that stuff off as immaturity...it has quite a different effect on kids and neighbors.
I agree with the other two ACs. Why, for example, do you have two blank lines in your sig? That's just stupid.
Howdy All, Looking at what the Republicans are trying to do, keeping their delegates secret, sickens me. I thought they were supposed to represent the people they are delegating. How are the people that they are representing supposed to contact them and let them know what views we want expressed? Well we can't without contact information. What it sounds like is that the terrorists won. By not giving out this information, we have changed our system to compensate for what the terrorists want us to feel... Fear. Guess what, we obviously are fearful. I personally think this is cowardly and that leaders need to step up and become leaders. As a concerned citizen, that sees the system starting to break, we got to start being more responsible, and make a democracy work, and start talking, not hiding. I know that it is hard to risk your families, and your lives at these conventions (and I am personally not sure really how high of a terrorist threat that exists), but someone has too, and you choose to be the leaders, and represent. As the people that are still in school and that you are inspiring (or not), we got to be able to write and let you know our views. We are not electing a dictator that chooses policy for 4 years, the person we elect is supposed to be a president that hears the people and reacts. A president can change his mind. A candidate can change his mind. They are supposed too as they get public opinion, more information about controversal subjects, and become more informed to make a better intelligent decision. But to make an intelligent decision, we got to know who to talk too. Else the system breaks down. Imagine you were a CEO, and had to tell 10 people a message, just to get a message the client representative. I have done this game before (not through ten people, but three), and communication breaks down. The client wants to be able to pick up the phone and talk to the people in charge, or at least the secretary. Guess what delegates, we are the client, and we want to call and contact, and pass our opinions. It is how our system works. I don't want to have my email lost, and I have no clue when I send one, what really happens to it. I imagine most of the public does not know what really happens to it. Maybe someone should do a commercial about how their voice counts? It could make for a nice way to get their votes. Well I hope this lets out some of the frustration I am feeling, and I hope the lists stop becoming "secret". Thanks and Gig'em!
And that word is: FEAR.
The government and media in America has its citizens whipped up into a frothful and delirious state of constant fear. Fear of terrorists. Fear of different ethnicities. Fear of liberals.
A gun is an equalizer for those who feel powerless. A gun makes them feel as though they have power in an environment where they are frightened.
The NRA manipulates their fears for political and financial gain by promoting the notion that there is a campaign afoot to take their guns away. The NRA is the great protector of Americans' only safety blanket.
There are many lessons for Americans to learn from Afghanistan and Iraq. Among these is this: Allowing each household to own a fully automatic AK-47 does not seem to have created an orderly or peaceful society.
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It all comes down to context and intent.
Posting information on a website with some very riot happy readers in the hopes of intimidating or provoking the intimidation of a group of voters is illegal.
Can you think of any other reason why the names, phone numbers and addresses of these people was placed on a website that acts as a hub for RNC protests?
There is a good reason why voter intimidation is illegal. Imagine if the license plate numbers, names and addresses for all black democrats were provided on a website frequented by heavily white angry republican police officers the week before the election. It isn't a pretty picture.
Of course, indymedia would cry foul if that happened.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
Good Lawd! Them Uppity Negroes is at it again!?? Samford n Sons must be up to no good business again!
Our objectives are to:
- Supply anti-RNC groups with data on the delegates to use in whatever way they see fit.
- Supply a body of information that can be easily added to.
- Encourage the republishing and redistribution of this data.
- Facilitate making local connections. Many of these delegates are involved in politics and business on a town or county level.
There is nothing threatening about this post at all. The objectives do not threaten any of the political candidates. What I find absolutely bizzar is that when the government wants its citizens' information, they think thats entirely OK. CAPPS II, TIO, MATRIX, PATRIOT II... What the hell makes that data collection justified? ITS NOT. As soon as an organization turns around and posts a list of people that want these laws, they send the SS after them. Utter hypocracy at its worst. How can I be trusted that those lists are not being used against me, or sold to Al Queda. What if I am a high-profile executive and a terrorist wants me dead? Why the fuck does your job as a politican give you more rights to privacy then me, my next door neighbor, or the guy in the next state. These people need to get a clue and understand if they don't like having lists of where they're going to be, maybe they shouldn't be making lists of where everyone else is going to be. With convient passanger profiling and mandatory ID checks on airplanes, its not hard to find out where somebody is in this country. Data collection that has nothing to do with a specific criminal investigation makes every one of us less secure, but for some reason people can't see this. They're too busy looking for terrorists. And I, for one, am fucking sick of it.
Just to be fair here, it doesn't look like Sen. Kennedy is the only senator who wasn't too keen on this bill. It failed to pass with 8 yeas and 90 nays. Point fingers at Kerry and Kennedy all you want, but please don't stop pointing them at the other 88 senators who voted this bill down.
Additionally, the bill you are referencing, Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, is described by Thomas as I'm not sure what bill you are referring to when you say This bill would have essentially given the Attorney General the power to ban any ammunition that was capable of penetrating police soft body armor. It doesn't seem to be this one that you've attributed the Kennedy quote to and that a near unanimous number of senators opposed.
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The illusion of posting as Anonymous is what exists on most forums. Do you actually think posting here on ./ as an AC shields you? Well post a bunch of crap that gets modded as flamebait and see what happens to your karma. How do they tell you to chill out and take a break from posting if they can't track down your IP? Do you think anyone sane running a forum is crazy enough to allow truly anonymous posting if it could mean their butt in jail if you can't give up the IP? Thats why they are fighting the suponea. They do track the IP, if they didn't they would say "we don't have it, take a look, see for yourself. Instead they got lawyers. Look for a court order real soon now. The ACLU has told them not to destroy any logs they got. If they have it's bad news for ny.indymedia. and even the ACLU will not be able to help them.
This is not the same as getting a letter from Mr Anonymous as the editor of a news paper where there truly is a blinding of who the actual writer. is.
When did "i don't see it that way" become "Absolutely Wrong"?
When "You're either with us or with the terrorists" became your new foundation for diplomacy?
-- Language is a virus from outer space.
You are correct. It is a difficult issue. In the case you're referring to, the lower court ruled against the freedom to publish the doctors' addresses because the publication had a correlation to the deaths of three doctors who had been listed. If it turns out that RNC delegates are injured or killed, I would agree that their private contact info seems to have been misused.
But that's the trick with the first ammendment. Prior restraint of speech has continually been ruled down by the courts. We have to let things take their course, then hold someone responsible after a bit of speech has been connected to some kind of crime.
If the public interest is served by the publication of these names and addresses, then they should be published.The first ammendment does not mention that for speech to be protected it must serve the public interest. Look no further than the rantings of the KKK to see that protected speech can include collections of words that do not serve the public interest.
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It has gotten to the point that women going into a Women's Health clinic are showered with blood, ugly pictures are shoved into their faces, their access to the clinics is made difficult or impossible by the gauntlet they have to run, etc., all based on the assumption that the woman going in is getting an abortion, instead of maybe a fetal health checkup, her periodic pelvic exam, etc.
Now, some wacko has decided that the root of the evil is the actual doctors. So he's been shooting them or sending them letter bombs.
Names of patients going to clinics to get abortions are leaked to anti-abortion groups by insiders, and some of the protesting precedes their visit to the clinic.
Patients have also been followed home, interecepted leaving their homes for the clinic (it is assumed), etc.
If you live in a small community, you probably know your election judge, or know someone who does. You might even get invited to their christmas party. They have no privacy, only differing layers of obscurity.
In fact, I bet that in various newsletters, delegates are named with adresses where they live.
It's also happened to corporate executives, movie stars, etc.
What -law- do you break in the US by putting this info on a webpage?
Wether it is "right" or "smart" (I think neither) is a completely other question.
"/Dread"
I think THIS is the scariest plank of all:
..."
# p.8, Christian Nation: "The Republican Party of Texas affirms the United States of America is a Christian Nation
Forget about the Patriot Act - think about what sort of havoc something entitled "The Christian Act" could wreak.
Just further proof that religion has no place in poltics. As if the dark ages wasn't proof enough.
First they burn books, then they burn people.
(For those of you who haven't been paying attention, BOTH Bush and Kerry are pro-hunters/sportsmen.)
I'm pretty sure however that Kerry has done more than most Senators when it comes to the environment.
Check out Project Vote Smart for example:
Environmental Issues:
2003 On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 53 percent of the time.
2003 On the votes that the Sierra Club considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2001-2002 On the votes that the National Parks Consevation Association considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2001-2002 On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 92 percent of the time.
2001-2002 On the votes that the Comprehensive US Sustainable Population considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 73 percent of the time.
1999-2000 On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 94 percent of the time.
1999-2000 On the votes that the National Parks Conservation Association considered to be the most important in 1999-2000 , Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
1999-2000 On the votes that the Comprehensive US Sustainable Population considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 84 percent of the time.
An interesting aside, Nixon was the one who can be credited with the creation of the EPA. He spent a third of his 1973(?) State of The Union talking about the environment.
It doesn't have to be a party issue.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Bad wording on my part. I meant corporate money, corporate sleaziness and corporate lies.
Sure, their info is not always accurate and, depending on your viewpoint, it might be sleazy. But it's grassroots, often written by eye-witnesses.
Before you condem hunters as anti-environment, I'd like to point out that one of the greatest conservationists in the history of the United States, and one of the finest presidents we've ever had, was an avid hunter.
Theodore Roosevelt added nearly a quarter billion acres to the national park system. That's an area similar in size to all of the states on the eastern seaboard, from Maine to Florida. He helped establish the concept of endangered species in the mind of the public, and was widely considered one of the world's foremost academic experts on mammals. The man was, quite simply, a genius.
And, he loved to hunt.
I'm not here to defend anyone but this bit annoys me... Bush, Kerry and most politician ads do this all the time. "He voted against this. You like this so he must be bad."
To oppose an act does not mean they want the opposite of the title to happen. The title is one thing and the body is another. Perhaps (and this is just speculation) they oppose how the act tries to accomplish the title. What if it says "if you own property and a single endangered fungus is found, you you can't build anything?" Or they oppose the riders on the act.
If I attacked one of the delegates and beat the living shit out of a NYPD cop, I would expect authorities to start asking questions about me, too.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
I am an independant -- but I am seeing the dems attacking my rights to free speach and privacy at the same time. Hippocrits. The only reason for giving out someones phone number and address other than your own is to incite discrimination and violence. The dems are becoming the new Hitler Youth and most news organization their ss.
Totally off-topic, but GOD I HATE ACRONYMS.
I have to sit there and try to figure out what the poster means by TTTH WTF YMMV HAND ITYM POOP. The only one I like is IANAL, because it makes me giggle every time...
Seriously, is the whole world in such a rush that we have to eliminate fingerstrokes just to save time?
Slashdot: News for nerds. Stuff tha-- MICRO$OFT IS THE DEVIL!!1
From the website which posted the list:
Any source of contributed info will remain anonymous of course. We encourage the use of encrpytion. The PGP key for this e-mail address is available on the Hush keyserver or upon request...[emphasis mine]Apparently, the "right to privacy" applies only to the contributors of the list, not the delegates themselves... This has nothing to do with liberty and equality, but is simply an attempt to formally establish a social underclass without the rights you and I hold so dear. If you listen to their rhetoric, freedom of religion, thought and speech only applies to those who agree with them. If you don't agree with them, you have no such rights.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
The ACLU is saying people who out others have the right to do so anonymously. I don't get it.
If anonymous people had outed Democrat delegates would the ACLU be backing the anonymous people? Some how I don't think so.
p.17: "The Party supports the termination of bilingual education programs..."
..."
After all, if they can't speak American, they shouldn't be here, right? I mean, look at Governor Arney. He speaks American.
p.15: "We call for the abolition of the U.S. Department of Education and the prohibition of the transfer of any of its functions to any other federal agency."
Yeah, why should someone bother to make sure the schools are actually teaching anything? Stupid people are so much easier to manage than ones that can think for themselves.
p.10: Celebrating Traditional Marriage calls for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, and opposes the legalization of "sodomy" ie homosexuality.
Descrimination at its finest. Next they'll go back to demanding that blacks ride at the back of the bus, and use separate drinking fountains. After all, if you don't look like, and live like, they do, you're not a "person" and can be treated like dirt.
p. 2 #18: "We oppose the Endangered Species Act."
Of course...it stops their friends and family from making money by raping the planet (figurative term). After all, if THEY don't gouge out every last resource for a profit, someone else will.
p.8, Christian Nation: "The Republican Party of Texas affirms the United States of America is a Christian Nation
And if you don't believe as we do, you're a heretic and should be burned at the stake.
Don't look now, but before the national convention there are state and local events at which people can express their opinions about the platform. Arguing that people posted the list to Indymedia to make it easier for Republicans to express their opinion is disingenuous in the extreme.
You can tell someone doesn't live in Appalachia (I'm in the Kanawha valley, BTW).
Most people who don't live somewhere with convenient access to reasonably large amounts of temeperate, forested nature don't get deer overpopulating and starving, or having to worry about bears coming down off the mountain and walking a couple blocks into town past your house, or anything like that. =)
They also miss the damn nice views of the forested mountains, but y'know that doesn't involve guns, and is thus irelevant to this discussion.
Two words: Southern Strategy. Either you've been out of it or you conveiniently ignored the fact that the old racist, southern Democratic base is now in the GOP. Two more words for you: Strom Thurmond.
Racial opression is wrong no matter who is doing it. The Democrats don't have clean hands.
Alright why don't you go find 10 racist Democrats from the 50's who are still around and are still Democrats. I wont hold my breath while you look.
There's a big difference between posting someone's info with the encouragement to harrass and annoy, and postings someone's info with the encouragement to harrass and kill.
As the other guy said: Robert Kennedy. 'Nuf said.
No, Bush doesn't have open rallies for the same reason he doesn't have open press conferences: he is an idiot who can't handle any environment that's not scripted.
wtf do Bush campaign stops have to do with the protests in NYC?
While I'm not against the Endangered Species Act, I do support rights of hunters and fishermen. What do you have against that? Every hunter fisherman I know takes their limits....and eats them. That chicken breast and steak weren't born in cellophane wrapped packages at your grocery store. They were living animals, clucking fucking and eating just like any animal in the wild (ok, maybe not clucking..haha). But, unless your a hard core vegan, face it, we are human ANIMALS...we kill and eat other things below us in nature's food chain. Just because you prefer to hunt and kill your own doesn't make you much more different than anyone else...you just are willing to put more effort into the process of gathering your food.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Nope, still "Excellent"
Why don't you go play somewhere else, loser?
Luckily, neither the NRA nor anyone else has actually recommended that everyone in the US obtain a fully automatic AK-47. We're talking about hunting rifles here.
Sean
The point is not that posting folks' personal information was wrong; the point is that the methods that the government are using to "bring the wrongdoers to justice" are overbroad, and look suspiciously like witch-hunting.
Again, we don't blame the phone company when someone calls someone else to plan a crime, and we'd like to think the government wouldn't go for tapping every single phone over one incident.
Fair 'nuff. Good point, i guess, but there's no reason for that to be partisan, OR posted on an anti-RNC setting.
Why again would you post that information with a "Shut them down" and a decidedly nebulous "for other groups to do with what they will" rather than being specific about your suggestion of doing reasearch. Oh there's also that bit about posting the private info of attendees as well as delegates
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
and people have actually followed through on murdering abortion clinic physicians. Not to mention real harrasment and bombings.
Also note that an elected official is a public official. A clinical physician is a private citizen.
The intent of Indymedia is to get people involved in the political process.
In short, the two do not equate.
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
They're also completely surrounding crowds to seal off any exit, ordering them to disburse, then arresting them for not disbursing.
It seems that slashdotter bryanp advocates private ownership of fully automatic weapons. This discussion has become totally non-linear, so please understand I was responding to that sentiment.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
> According to humans or natural trends?
Yes. (that means "both")
> Animals weren't put here so we could shoot them when they interfered with our driving habits.
Oh, I didn't realize God was on Slashdot. Or do you just know his will?
Yes, it would be ignorant to say that they WERE put here for that reason, but please don't claim to know why (or why not) an animal exists. IMO, there is no real reason for it, its just that the way things turned out, the deer population booms drastically because they aren't dieing as quickly as they were before. Due to that, they now die by other means (cars, starvation, etc). Most of these deer will die one way or another, so killing them instantly with a gun could be considered more humane than letting them starve en-masse in the middle of winter. Plus, we'll get use of the meat while wintertime scavengers pick the bones of the remaining starved deer.
> "He voted against this. You like this so he must be bad."
Great point. You would think Slashdot users would know this already, since many of us think that those who voted for the USAPATRIOT act, and knew what was in it, are hardly Patriots.
God placed animals on this planet below the level of humans for the human race to use them for shelter, food, etc. in order to further the human race. Now given, hunters doesn't necessarily do anything useful with their catches but they are not killing other humans which is a sin. Animals are lower on the species hierarchy and therefore we do have a right to kill them.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
Can I get a second from the GNAA?
..no one knows but the goon himself and the goons around him who they will kill next. If they pull off phony terror attack round two and use nukes or biologicals, it could be quite a few more folks get it. These guys are *killers* for blood profit, I can't make it any simpler or clearer than that. Close to a thousand US servicemen, with who knows how many more of them going to bite it from DU (a blatant WMD in widespread use) exposure. 10 thousand iraqis, a lot of them "collateral damage" civvies, little kids, women, old geezers. think about that one, if it was your kids or relatives or friends.. 7000 US wounded, and that doesn't include private mercenary contractors, of which there are a lot.
3 83 893
Here, read this, it just got posted, sums up some of my feelings as well, and it's big. It also leaves out quite a few other points but there's enough to ponder on for a while.
http://slashdot.org/messages.pl?op=display&id=5
and the other point is, and this is critical, yes, there are worse dictatoruships out there now. The intelligent person notices when his reality is sliding that way and works to nip it in the bud before it gets even worse. You DON'T wait until it's bad as north korea in other words. We got the secret police now, death squads, illegal wars, coverups for domestic terror attacks, surveillence and command and control technology being deployed as fast as it can be manufactured. All sorts of people getting on "lists" and getting vistis from fed cop goons. There's a guy right now who came in second in the new hampshire primary who got kidnapped by guys calling themselves secret service agents, turns out they weren't, they were white house secret police. A supporter of his with zero record, and older guy a doctor, gets a vist from the secret police, they called him a terrorism suspect.
This stuff is going on all over. How about those phony anthrax atacks using US dot mil army issued anthrax? High level dem politicians and a media guy who was investigating the bush twins for illegal drinking and drugging got sent the anthrax. The journalist croaked. Wasn't raggyheads did that.
So, I repeat, go ahead and join up with them guys, I'll pass. I'll gladly take the label as an extremist against criminality. No problems there. Never been a crook, don't plan on starting now. I don't support or join up with crooks, and because the top levels of that party are in on it, well, it's a criminal cartel as far as I am concerned. No amount of their flag waving is gonna change the data.
As to whom I might vote for, not sure this year, past several elections I have voted constituion party or reform party, but with diebold machines now and what I saw go down with them in the 2002 elections, I think that voting jazz is over anyway, for any practical honest purposes. The vote is hijacked now, we've seen enough evidence to show that diebold is corrupt. And we know who owns and controls diebold, so there ya go.
killing other humans which is a sin
Or so you believe.
we do have a right to kill them
Or so you believe.
The white tail deer population is out of control. As others have mentioned, there are the mass starvation you see towards the end of every winter. What has not been mentioned here so far has been the spread of disease through the undernourished over crowded deer populations which takes out many with a slow lingering death.
Some of the reason for the over popluation is the lack of predators aside from cars and a handful of hunters - no big cats left anywhere in the Midwest, for example. Perhaps the largest reason is that all the normal habitat (i.e. forest) is gone and what remains is nearly perfect for deer. The sparse clusters of trees remaining in the U.S. is technically classified as "edge" rather than "forest".
From a monetary point of view, the damage done by motor vehicle-deer collisions and the damage done to crops out weigh the economic benefits from hunting licenses and pariphenalia. But with out the meager amount of hunting, the problems caused by the animals and to the animals would be much worse.
Much of the habitat has been destroyed by an invasive species called Long Pig in the Pacific. Want the deer to be healthy with as sustainably population? You want wolves, bear, wolverines, puma to come back? Then go after the source of the problem and cull the Long Pig. Watch out though, they're vicious and the whole pack will turn on you if it's not a clean kill and they get a chance to track you.
Perhaps one reason US hunting licenses are sold rather than earned and that the US does not manage its natural resources is fear of abuse from a centralized source. Like we have in the example of the Indymedia Logs being supeonaed. If more information were a matter of public record, such as the names of the RNC delagates, then problems like this wouldn't arise. Nor would a lot of scandals like Enron & co.
Hey, it's about choosing the national leader. Why shouldn't it be public record?
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
The phony claims from the Secret Service about alleged voter intimidation by some poster on Indy revealing the names and hotels of RNC delegates pales in comparison to the very real intimadation carried out by Repugnican operatives. Here are but a few documented incidents:
i ndex.php
Philadelphia, PA, 2003: Voters in African-American neighborhoods were systematically challenged by men carrying clipboards, driving a fleet of some 300 sedans with magnetic signs designed to look like law enforcement insignia. [NAACP/PFAW 2004].
Michigan, 2004: One of Bush's Michigan advisors, State Rep. John Pappageorge (R-Troy) was quoted as saying "If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election." [Detroit Free Press, 7/16/04]
Louisiana, 2003: Flyers were posted in public housing projects which read "Vote!!! Bad Weather? No problem!!! If the weather is uncomfortable on Election Day (Saturday December 7th) Remember you can wait and cast your ballot on Tuesday December 10th." [Times-Picayune (New Orleans), 12/12/02]
Sooooo, is the SS looking into this? We don't think so! But even if they are, why are they wasting additional taxpayer dollars chasing shadows on Indymedia? Hey! Why not ask them!
http://www.secretservice.gov/contact.shtml
from: http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/117545/
Full Text of Interview by Wired News of Subpoena'd IndyMedia ISPn dex.php
http://nyc.indymedia.org/feature/display/115023/i
Another reason to chill with the gun rhetoric, as the parent points out, is the Bill of Rights. It says pretty clearly you can have guns.
There are no trolls. There are no trees out here.